Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Ramapriya I dont know if i have understood your question, but the vedic astrology system is based on knowing a reference from Narayana or the Omniscient Creator. Because of this, we have based our philosophies, astrology, astronomy and everything you name. please first research as to what is Uttarayana and what is Dakshinayana, then we can talk about dates. best wishes partha On 7/19/05, Ramapriya D <ayirpamar wrote: Dear Sanjay and other learned ones, Uttarayana and dakshinayana are defined as the northward and southward courses of the Sun. Logically, this should relate only to the vernal and autumnal equinoxes when the Sun crosses the equator and moves northward/southward. Since the zodiac and nakshatras are all fixed-position things, and the equinox is precessing all the time, I was wondering why then do we reckon the onset of uttarayana and dakshinayana from the points of solar ingress to Capricorn and Cancer without simply referencing to the actual dates of occurrence of the equinoxes? Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar *tat savitur varenyam* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Partha, Let's first agree that the movement of the sun into the northern or southern hemisphere is a physical one. It happens when the sun crosses the equator. This happens twice - on the vernal and autumnal equinoxes. If you agree, you'll see where my confusion lies. The zodiac is plastered and fixed in the backdrop, unmoving; if anything is moving at all, it's the earth, with its precessing wobble. Now, am I to believe that we're to consider uttarayana as commencing from when Sun enters Capricorn, regardless of a date referenced from the actual equinox itself? I may well have missed a very elementary point in all this; all I seek is a little education from ones like you ) Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar On 7/19/05, Partha Sarathy <partvinu wrote: Dear Ramapriya I dont know if i have understood your question, but the vedic astrology system is based on knowing a reference from Narayana or the Omniscient Creator. Because of this, we have based our philosophies, astrology, astronomy and everything you name. please first research as to what is Uttarayana and what is Dakshinayana, then we can talk about dates. best wishes partha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Ramapriya, While searching on internet for your query came across this article, please read it and hopefully it will resolve your queries. http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/projects/akhil-urops.pdf Regards, Ashish jyotisa , Ramapriya D <ayirpamar@g...> wrote: > Dear Partha, > Let's first agree that the movement of the sun into the northern or > southern hemisphere is a physical one. It happens when the sun crosses the > equator. This happens twice - on the vernal and autumnal equinoxes. If you > agree, you'll see where my confusion lies. The zodiac is plastered and fixed > in the backdrop, unmoving; if anything is moving at all, it's the earth, > with its precessing wobble. Now, am I to believe that we're to consider > uttarayana as commencing from when Sun enters Capricorn, regardless of a > date referenced from the actual equinox itself? > I may well have missed a very elementary point in all this; all I seek is a > little education from ones like you ) > Respects, > Ramapriya > ayirpamar@g... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Ashish, Thanks, but no, it doesn't answer what I wanted to know. Let me make myself clearer. I allude to the Narada Purana (Sloka 263, Chapter 56), which states that Sun's transit into Aries and Libra be reckoned as equinoxes. This probably held good too, when the Narada Purana was authored. Since I didn't find in it any mention of precession of the equinoxes, and since we now know that there is indeed precession, I was wondering if we should change these ingress positions accordingly? This precession makes the spring equinox occur on Mar 22nd these days, whereas we wait until April 14th for the Aries samkranthi. An event clearly related to a movable equinox is being linked to an immovable zodiac, without corrections applied. There are 25 slokas (721 to 745) in the same chapter dedicated to prognostication of rainfall, and lots of mention about nakshatras. Something as seasonal as rainfall can only be linked to the equinox, I feel, and we should make changes to nakshatras based on the precession we know now. Either all this, or simply use a sayana rasichakra that begins from 0 Aries from the viswai (equinox), which will not leave us much different from western astrologers I hope a guru clarifies on this. Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar On 7/19/05, ashish25mathur <ashish25mathur wrote: Dear Ramapriya, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 || Jaya Jagannath || Dear Rama, During the equinoxes the declination of the Sun is zero as we know and after one equinox, it starts moving northwards and after another one southwards. Now the dates are unimportant infront of an astrological event. When we know that the during the equinoxes, Sun is approximately in 7d pisces or virgo, we can reckon the solstices in an axis, 90d to the axis of the Equinoxes. So the astronomical uttarayana or dakshinayana starts when the Sun is approximately in 7d Gemini or Sagittarius, which matches against the dates of actual solstices. Since the Sayana zodiac is moved as per the value of precision to match the start point of zodiac to Sun's declination at 0, this shows the seasonal changes due change in solar declination in a better way. However, the point I want to highlight is that the astronomical uttarayana and dakshinayana is no longer tied to Start of Cancer or Capricorn, but due to ayanamsa changes, is moved back to Gemini and Sagittarius by 23d approx. You can check astronomically that during the actual Uttarayana, Sun does appear in Gemini in the sky. During the Nirayana Transit of Cancer and Capricorn, the Sun is not on the Tropics as we expect it to be. We are just mapping it that way. Regards Sarajit On 7/19/05, Ramapriya D <ayirpamar wrote: > Dear Partha, > > Let's first agree that the movement of the sun into the northern or southern > hemisphere is a physical one. It happens when the sun crosses the equator. > This happens twice - on the vernal and autumnal equinoxes. If you agree, > you'll see where my confusion lies. The zodiac is plastered and fixed in the > backdrop, unmoving; if anything is moving at all, it's the earth, with its > precessing wobble. Now, am I to believe that we're to consider uttarayana as > commencing from when Sun enters Capricorn, regardless of a date referenced > from the actual equinox itself? > > I may well have missed a very elementary point in all this; all I seek is a > little education from ones like you ) > > Respects, > > Ramapriya > ayirpamar > > > On 7/19/05, Partha Sarathy <partvinu wrote: > > > > Dear Ramapriya > > > > I dont know if i have understood your question, but the vedic astrology > system is based on knowing a reference from Narayana or the Omniscient > Creator. > > Because of this, we have based our philosophies, astrology, astronomy and > everything you name. > > please first research as to what is Uttarayana and what is Dakshinayana, > then we can talk about dates. > > best wishes > > partha > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Sarajit, Saved for future reference. Thanks a lot. As of now, I don't know much about how seasonal events like harvest-related festivals, etc. are observed back home, but you gave me something to go by to make a start and look ) Thanks again, Rama ayirpamar On 7/19/05, Sarajit Poddar <sarajitp wrote: || Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Rama,I can see your dilemma. However, the truth is that the sayana chakra is also known as Vishnu Chakra, as compared to Narayana Chakra, which is for the Nirayana Chakra. The Vishnu chakra is to be used for all seasonal matters and not judgement of Native.Best WishesSarajit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Sarajit, On 7/19/05, Sarajit Poddar <sarajitp wrote: During the equinoxes the declination of the Sun is zero as we know andafter one equinox, it starts moving northwards and after another one southwards. Now the dates are unimportant infront of an astrologicalevent. Unimportant if you consider only individual horoscopy. If facets such as meteorology and muhurthas are under the astrology umbrella too, which they are, not so unimportant. When we know that the during the equinoxes, Sun is approximately in 7d pisces or virgo, we can reckon the solstices in an axis, 90d to the axis of the Equinoxes. Yep, quite. So the astronomical uttarayana or dakshinayana starts when the Sun isapproximately in 7d Gemini or Sagittarius, which matches against the dates of actual solstices.Since the Sayana zodiac is moved as per the value of precision tomatch the start point of zodiac to Sun's declination at 0, this showsthe seasonal changes due change in solar declination in a better way. However, the point I want to highlight is that the astronomicaluttarayana and dakshinayana is no longer tied to Start of Cancer orCapricorn This is where my confusion furthers. If uttarayana is no longer astronomically tied to the onset of Capricorn, why celebrate 14th January and why not 22nd December? , but due to ayanamsa changes, is moved back to Gemini andSagittarius by 23d approx. You can check astronomically that during the actual Uttarayana, Sun does appear in Gemini in the sky. 'course. During the Nirayana Transit of Cancer and Capricorn, the Sun is not onthe Tropics as we expect it to be. We are just mapping it that way. The mapping is very technically well-founded, no question of that, because precession has been proven beyond doubt. As far as individual horoscopy is concerned, we must account for precession. However, if we're to use astrology to predict seasonal matters such as rainfall, etc., don't you think it'd be smarter to use a corrected zodiac? After all, the ardra or rohini pravesha chakra techniques are Sun-related. And neither the Sun nor the nakshatras have precessed, whereas the season-influencing equinox has! I wish I had what it took to make myself clearer in words :\ Respects, Rama ayirpamar RegardsSarajit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 || Jaya Jagannath || Dear Rama, > The mapping is very technically well-founded, no question of that, because > precession has been proven beyond doubt. As far as individual horoscopy is > concerned, we must account for precession. However, if we're to use > astrology to predict seasonal matters such as rainfall, etc., don't you > think it'd be smarter to use a corrected zodiac? After all, the ardra or > rohini pravesha chakra techniques are Sun-related. And neither the Sun nor > the nakshatras have precessed, whereas the season-influencing equinox has! When we have mapped the zodiac to the equinoxes and the solstices for the analysis of seasonal events, we have mapped the nakshatra also in the same manner. While we see the transit of Sun into different nakshatras, they are as per the Vishnu Chakra and not the Narayana Chakra... Regards Sarajit On 7/19/05, Ramapriya D <ayirpamar wrote: > Dear Sarajit, > > On 7/19/05, Sarajit Poddar <sarajitp wrote: > > > > During the equinoxes the declination of the Sun is zero as we know and > > after one equinox, it starts moving northwards and after another one > > southwards. Now the dates are unimportant infront of an astrological > > event. > > Unimportant if you consider only individual horoscopy. If facets such as > meteorology and muhurthas are under the astrology umbrella too, which they > are, not so unimportant. > > When we know that the during the equinoxes, Sun is approximately in 7d > pisces or virgo, we can reckon the solstices in an axis, 90d to the axis of > the Equinoxes. > > Yep, quite. > > So the astronomical uttarayana or dakshinayana starts when the Sun is > > approximately in 7d Gemini or Sagittarius, which matches against the > > dates of actual solstices. > > > > Since the Sayana zodiac is moved as per the value of precision to > > match the start point of zodiac to Sun's declination at 0, this shows > > the seasonal changes due change in solar declination in a better way. > > > > However, the point I want to highlight is that the astronomical > > uttarayana and dakshinayana is no longer tied to Start of Cancer or > > Capricorn > > This is where my confusion furthers. If uttarayana is no longer > astronomically tied to the onset of Capricorn, why celebrate 14th January > and why not 22nd December? > > , but due to ayanamsa changes, is moved back to Gemini and > > Sagittarius by 23d approx. You can check astronomically that during > > the actual Uttarayana, Sun does appear in Gemini in the sky. > > 'course. > > During the Nirayana Transit of Cancer and Capricorn, the Sun is not on > > the Tropics as we expect it to be. We are just mapping it that way. > > The mapping is very technically well-founded, no question of that, because > precession has been proven beyond doubt. As far as individual horoscopy is > concerned, we must account for precession. However, if we're to use > astrology to predict seasonal matters such as rainfall, etc., don't you > think it'd be smarter to use a corrected zodiac? After all, the ardra or > rohini pravesha chakra techniques are Sun-related. And neither the Sun nor > the nakshatras have precessed, whereas the season-influencing equinox has! > > I wish I had what it took to make myself clearer in words :\ > > Respects, > > Rama > ayirpamar > > Regards > > Sarajit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 || Jaya Jagannath || Dear Rama, 1. I forgot to mention in the previous mail that IMHO, the ardra or rohini pravesha chakra techniques which are more for prognostication of seasonal events, we need to take the Vishnu Chakra or the Sayana Zodiac. 2. If the purpose of an event such as Sankrantis is more for astrological purposes which has some philosophical connection to the signs (not Sun's declination or seasons), then we must use the Nirayana Zodiac, which is the true map of the sky. For us the movement of Sun into Cancer and Capricorn has more implication than mere seasonal changes. Best Wishes Sarajit On 7/19/05, Sarajit Poddar <sarajitp wrote: > || Jaya Jagannath || > Dear Rama, > > > The mapping is very technically well-founded, no question of that, because > > precession has been proven beyond doubt. As far as individual horoscopy is > > concerned, we must account for precession. However, if we're to use > > astrology to predict seasonal matters such as rainfall, etc., don't you > > think it'd be smarter to use a corrected zodiac? After all, the ardra or > > rohini pravesha chakra techniques are Sun-related. And neither the Sun nor > > the nakshatras have precessed, whereas the season-influencing equinox has! > > When we have mapped the zodiac to the equinoxes and the solstices for > the analysis of seasonal events, we have mapped the nakshatra also in > the same manner. While we see the transit of Sun into different > nakshatras, they are as per the Vishnu Chakra and not the Narayana > Chakra... > > Regards > Sarajit > > > > On 7/19/05, Ramapriya D <ayirpamar wrote: > > Dear Sarajit, > > > > On 7/19/05, Sarajit Poddar <sarajitp wrote: > > > > > > During the equinoxes the declination of the Sun is zero as we know and > > > after one equinox, it starts moving northwards and after another one > > > southwards. Now the dates are unimportant infront of an astrological > > > event. > > > > Unimportant if you consider only individual horoscopy. If facets such as > > meteorology and muhurthas are under the astrology umbrella too, which they > > are, not so unimportant. > > > > When we know that the during the equinoxes, Sun is approximately in 7d > > pisces or virgo, we can reckon the solstices in an axis, 90d to the axis of > > the Equinoxes. > > > > Yep, quite. > > > So the astronomical uttarayana or dakshinayana starts when the Sun is > > > approximately in 7d Gemini or Sagittarius, which matches against the > > > dates of actual solstices. > > > > > > Since the Sayana zodiac is moved as per the value of precision to > > > match the start point of zodiac to Sun's declination at 0, this shows > > > the seasonal changes due change in solar declination in a better way. > > > > > > However, the point I want to highlight is that the astronomical > > > uttarayana and dakshinayana is no longer tied to Start of Cancer or > > > Capricorn > > > > This is where my confusion furthers. If uttarayana is no longer > > astronomically tied to the onset of Capricorn, why celebrate 14th January > > and why not 22nd December? > > > , but due to ayanamsa changes, is moved back to Gemini and > > > Sagittarius by 23d approx. You can check astronomically that during > > > the actual Uttarayana, Sun does appear in Gemini in the sky. > > > > 'course. > > > During the Nirayana Transit of Cancer and Capricorn, the Sun is not on > > > the Tropics as we expect it to be. We are just mapping it that way. > > > > The mapping is very technically well-founded, no question of that, because > > precession has been proven beyond doubt. As far as individual horoscopy is > > concerned, we must account for precession. However, if we're to use > > astrology to predict seasonal matters such as rainfall, etc., don't you > > think it'd be smarter to use a corrected zodiac? After all, the ardra or > > rohini pravesha chakra techniques are Sun-related. And neither the Sun nor > > the nakshatras have precessed, whereas the season-influencing equinox has! > > > > I wish I had what it took to make myself clearer in words :\ > > > > Respects, > > > > Rama > > ayirpamar > > > Regards > > > Sarajit > -- Best Wishes Sarajit Poddar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Sarajit, On 7/19/05, Sarajit Poddar <sarajitp wrote: || Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Rama,When we have mapped the zodiac to the equinoxes and the solstices for the analysis of seasonal events, My mind is more clouded than normal today. I thought that your 'mapped' meant that you accounted for precession in ascertaining planetary positions. If we have indeed mapped it the way you say, why on earth does Sun not enter Aries and Libra on Mar 22nd and Sep 22nd respectively? we have mapped the nakshatra also in the same manner. While we see the transit of Sun into different nakshatras, they are as per the Vishnu Chakra and not the Narayana Chakra... Wow, I think you've just opened a big can of worms here, Sarajit... Sun's transit is per the tropical zodiac, then? ) If Narasimha is seeing this, he'll either assent or dissent, for sure! Thanks so much for your time on this thread. Respects, Rama ayirpamar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dear Sarajit, On 7/19/05, Sarajit Poddar <sarajitp wrote: || Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Rama,1. I forgot to mention in the previous mail that IMHO, the ardra or rohini pravesha chakra techniques which are more for prognostication of seasonal events, we need to take the Vishnu Chakra or the Sayana Zodiac. Couldn't agree more. 2. If the purpose of an event such as Sankrantis is more for astrological purposes which has some philosophical connection to the signs (not Sun's declination or seasons), then we must use the Nirayana Zodiac, which is the true map of the sky. For us the movement of Sun into Cancer and Capricorn has more implication than mere seasonal changes. Absolutely. Isn't that why we're a light year ahead of our western astrologer pals? ) Respects, Rama ayirpamar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Ramapriya, This is mentioned in one of the Upanishads. Best regards, Sarbani jyotisa [jyotisa ] On Behalf Of Ramapriya DTuesday, July 19, 2005 8:37 AMjyotisa Subject: Re: A Q on uttarayana and dakshinayana Dear Partha, Let's first agree that the movement of the sun into the northern or southern hemisphere is a physical one. It happens when the sun crosses the equator. This happens twice - on the vernal and autumnal equinoxes. If you agree, you'll see where my confusion lies. The zodiac is plastered and fixed in the backdrop, unmoving; if anything is moving at all, it's the earth, with its precessing wobble. Now, am I to believe that we're to consider uttarayana as commencing from when Sun enters Capricorn, regardless of a date referenced from the actual equinox itself? I may well have missed a very elementary point in all this; all I seek is a little education from ones like you ) Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar On 7/19/05, Partha Sarathy <partvinu wrote: Dear Ramapriya I dont know if i have understood your question, but the vedic astrology system is based on knowing a reference from Narayana or the Omniscient Creator. Because of this, we have based our philosophies, astrology, astronomy and everything you name. please first research as to what is Uttarayana and what is Dakshinayana, then we can talk about dates. best wishes partha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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