Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami, Dear Swee, Will check this up and let you know. Incidentally, in common parlance and vernacular translations Vaidurya is translated as Cat's Eye! Regards, Sarbani On Behalf Of Swee ChanTuesday, June 14, 2005 4:43 PMSJCA[Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste Does the word Vaidurya stem from the Vidula reed? Please, tell me it is J If it is, I have finally found that Vaidurya is NOT Lapis Lazuli. Praying……….. Love, Swee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste You’ve made my day! The fibrous vidula reed is exactly how an included gemstone is. Due to the silky striations (like in fibrous rattan), the gemstone is cut at a 60 degree angle to give the cat’s eye effect. But I will still wait for your erudition on the root word. Thanks so much. Love, Swee On Behalf Of Sarbani Sarkar Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:35 PM RE: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Shri Brahmadaru Smarami, Dear Swee, Will check this up and let you know. Incidentally, in common parlance and vernacular translations Vaidurya is translated as Cat's Eye! Regards, Sarbani On Behalf Of Swee Chan Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:43 PM SJCA [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste Does the word Vaidurya stem from the Vidula reed? Please, tell me it is J If it is, I have finally found that Vaidurya is NOT Lapis Lazuli. Praying……….. Love, Swee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste You've made my day! The fibrous vidula reed is exactly how an included gemstone is. Due to the silky striations (like in fibrous rattan), the gemstone is cut at a 60 degree angle to give the cat's eye effect. But I will still wait for your erudition on the root word. Thanks so much. Love, Swee Dear Swee, What's the excitement about? You always knew that Vaidurya was Cat's Eye - in fact, 'twas you that taught me that, while you wrote http://www.brihaspati.net/ketu.htm :) Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar On Behalf Of Sarbani SarkarTuesday, June 14, 2005 1:35 PM Subject: RE: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Shri Brahmadaru Smarami, Dear Swee, Will check this up and let you know. Incidentally, in common parlance and vernacular translations Vaidurya is translated as Cat's Eye! Regards, Sarbani [ ] On Behalf Of Swee ChanTuesday, June 14, 2005 4:43 PM SJCA[Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste Does the word Vaidurya stem from the Vidula reed? Please, tell me it is J If it is, I have finally found that Vaidurya is NOT Lapis Lazuli. Praying……….. Love, Swee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Yes, but need to prove it by getting to the root of that word. That was my own version J and there’s so much tripe on the internet nowadays and it’s all dependent on who is desperate to sell what. Know what I mean? Next word: Karketana Root word – Karka (white crab) the recent exchange between yourself and Gaurav proves that formation of this family group of gems. The word maybe expressed as karketila – tila like in sesame seeds. The “oily/waxy/glossy” look of the quartzites. The formation can also look like lung sacs………in the word tilaka –of the lungs. So who says these are uparatnas? Only the cut throat jewelers………… Sarbani, Sanjay ji may Lord Jagannath and all your erudition continue to guide me. Love, Swee On Behalf Of Ramapriya D Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:02 PM Re: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste You've made my day! The fibrous vidula reed is exactly how an included gemstone is. Due to the silky striations (like in fibrous rattan), the gemstone is cut at a 60 degree angle to give the cat's eye effect. But I will still wait for your erudition on the root word. Thanks so much. Love, Swee Dear Swee, What's the excitement about? You always knew that Vaidurya was Cat's Eye - in fact, 'twas you that taught me that, while you wrote http://www.brihaspati.net/ketu.htm :) Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar On Behalf Of Sarbani Sarkar Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:35 PM RE: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Shri Brahmadaru Smarami, Dear Swee, Will check this up and let you know. Incidentally, in common parlance and vernacular translations Vaidurya is translated as Cat's Eye! Regards, Sarbani [ ] On Behalf Of Swee Chan Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:43 PM SJCA [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste Does the word Vaidurya stem from the Vidula reed? Please, tell me it is J If it is, I have finally found that Vaidurya is NOT Lapis Lazuli. Praying……….. Love, Swee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Without proof from the root words, I cannot create a mind shift of so many people who only recommend what they call the mainstream gemstones. The sapphire and ruby are all from the same family, emerald from the beryl family, diamond is its own. Not much else……….BUT what we have all failed to do so far is read in between the lines that clearly state what these gemstones are really being used for. The so called uparatnas are mostly for prosperity or progeny and the mainstream ones are mainly for spiritual purposes. Are people willing to accept that? Unlikely……… and we all know the reason is because they are so much cheaper. Humans have this stigma: If it is cheap, it is of no use. So we, as part of a parampara must reveal without bias what the representation of each gemstone is really for. So how’s about a translation the Charaka Samhita? Gemstones and healthy living colours. Like the sound of it? One thing I must say is that I am glad I have put off completing the book, but will definitely put a final semblance to it before my next birthday as TP this year calls for it…I have already spoken to a friend of mine where I will spend a few months incommunicado/in isolation on his Island. So a sabbatical soon, Bud. Love, Swee On Behalf Of Swee Chan Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:15 PM RE: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Yes, but need to prove it by getting to the root of that word. That was my own version J and there’s so much tripe on the internet nowadays and it’s all dependent on who is desperate to sell what. Know what I mean? Next word: Karketana Root word – Karka (white crab) the recent exchange between yourself and Gaurav proves that formation of this family group of gems. The word maybe expressed as karketila – tila like in sesame seeds. The “oily/waxy/glossy” look of the quartzites. The formation can also look like lung sacs………in the word tilaka –of the lungs. So who says these are uparatnas? Only the cut throat jewelers………… Sarbani, Sanjay ji may Lord Jagannath and all your erudition continue to guide me. Love, Swee On Behalf Of Ramapriya D Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:02 PM Re: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste You've made my day! The fibrous vidula reed is exactly how an included gemstone is. Due to the silky striations (like in fibrous rattan), the gemstone is cut at a 60 degree angle to give the cat's eye effect. But I will still wait for your erudition on the root word. Thanks so much. Love, Swee Dear Swee, What's the excitement about? You always knew that Vaidurya was Cat's Eye - in fact, 'twas you that taught me that, while you wrote http://www.brihaspati.net/ketu.htm :) Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar On Behalf Of Sarbani Sarkar Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:35 PM RE: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Shri Brahmadaru Smarami, Dear Swee, Will check this up and let you know. Incidentally, in common parlance and vernacular translations Vaidurya is translated as Cat's Eye! Regards, Sarbani [ ] On Behalf Of Swee Chan Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:43 PM SJCA [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani Jaya Jagannatha Dear Sarbani, Namaste Does the word Vaidurya stem from the Vidula reed? Please, tell me it is J If it is, I have finally found that Vaidurya is NOT Lapis Lazuli. Praying……….. Love, Swee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Yes, but need to prove it by getting to the root of that word. That was my own version J and there's so much tripe on the internet nowadays and it's all dependent on who is desperate to sell what. Know what I mean? Next word: Karketana Root word – Karka (white crab) the recent exchange between yourself and Gaurav proves that formation of this family group of gems. The word maybe expressed as karketila – tila like in sesame seeds. The "oily/waxy/glossy" look of the quartzites. The formation can also look like lung sacs………in the word tilaka –of the lungs. So who says these are uparatnas? Only the cut throat jewelers………… Sarbani, Sanjay ji may Lord Jagannath and all your erudition continue to guide me. Love, Swee Dear Swee, I'm not exactly the best chap to ask around for this. From what little I know, the best variety of Karketana has the copper colour of blood, the yellowish tinge of the moon, and burning fiery brilliance of honey. The other variety of rough surface bluish white in colour is not approved of since it brings about evils such as sickness, etc. Those Karketanas are very auspicious which are glossy, pure, of uniform reddish hue, of yellowish tinge, heavy, of diverse colours and free from defects, such as Trasa, cracks, snakelike scratches, etc. If, when it is set in an ornament of gold, it sheds brilliant rays as if heated in fire, Karketana removes sickness, dispels Kali defects and is conducive to longevity, flourishing family and general happiness. Some spurious Karketana gems of distorted untied aspect and pale blue colour and affected by pale red hue appear to have the shape of the genuine Karketana though devoid of brilliance and colourful effect. If Karketana is scrupulously tested for its colour and features and found to be bright and brilliant like the rising sun, it is to be priced in accordance with its greatness. Course, so said GP, not me ;o) While we're at it, this is what GP says of bhismamani: For someone who wears bhismamani, poisons of snakes, birds, mice and scorpion are ineffective. He has no fear from floods, fire, enemies or thieves. An intelligent man must shun spurious Bhisma stones of the colour of moss or clouds, rough of surface, lustreless or yellowish in tinge, or faded and dirty-coloured. The price of Bhisma stones shall be fixed after observing the place of origin and according to the reason. If the stone comes from far, its price is more than that of one local origin. Northern region of the Himalayas are the source of the gems called Bhisma. Bhisma stones, white like Sankha and lilies or syonaka (the white fruit of the tree of that name) are lustrous. There are some Bhisma stones similar to a fairly big-sized diamond. The man who wears a pure Bhisma stone with reverence and faith round his neck after setting it in gold acquires wealth. Wild leopards, wolves, Sarabhas (the fabulous eight-footed monsters), elephants, lions, tigers, fly from him at the very sight. Nice, isn't it? But wait for erudition from the two esses in Delhi Respects, Rama ayirpamar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Er, not to be rude, it maybe fine to have a translation………. means nothing. So after all that, what is karketana and bhismanai? Love, Swee On Behalf Of Ramapriya D Tuesday, June 14, 2005 3:59 PM Re: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Yes, but need to prove it by getting to the root of that word. That was my own version J and there's so much tripe on the internet nowadays and it's all dependent on who is desperate to sell what. Know what I mean? Next word: Karketana Root word – Karka (white crab) the recent exchange between yourself and Gaurav proves that formation of this family group of gems. The word maybe expressed as karketila – tila like in sesame seeds. The " oily/waxy/glossy " look of the quartzites. The formation can also look like lung sacs………in the word tilaka –of the lungs. So who says these are uparatnas? Only the cut throat jewelers………… Sarbani, Sanjay ji may Lord Jagannath and all your erudition continue to guide me. Love, Swee Dear Swee, I'm not exactly the best chap to ask around for this. From what little I know, the best variety of Karketana has the copper colour of blood, the yellowish tinge of the moon, and burning fiery brilliance of honey. The other variety of rough surface bluish white in colour is not approved of since it brings about evils such as sickness, etc. Those Karketanas are very auspicious which are glossy, pure, of uniform reddish hue, of yellowish tinge, heavy, of diverse colours and free from defects, such as Trasa, cracks, snakelike scratches, etc. If, when it is set in an ornament of gold, it sheds brilliant rays as if heated in fire, Karketana removes sickness, dispels Kali defects and is conducive to longevity, flourishing family and general happiness. Some spurious Karketana gems of distorted untied aspect and pale blue colour and affected by pale red hue appear to have the shape of the genuine Karketana though devoid of brilliance and colourful effect. If Karketana is scrupulously tested for its colour and features and found to be bright and brilliant like the rising sun, it is to be priced in accordance with its greatness. Course, so said GP, not me ;o) While we're at it, this is what GP says of bhismamani: For someone who wears bhismamani, poisons of snakes, birds, mice and scorpion are ineffective. He has no fear from floods, fire, enemies or thieves. An intelligent man must shun spurious Bhisma stones of the colour of moss or clouds, rough of surface, lustreless or yellowish in tinge, or faded and dirty-coloured. The price of Bhisma stones shall be fixed after observing the place of origin and according to the reason. If the stone comes from far, its price is more than that of one local origin. Northern region of the Himalayas are the source of the gems called Bhisma. Bhisma stones, white like Sankha and lilies or syonaka (the white fruit of the tree of that name) are lustrous. There are some Bhisma stones similar to a fairly big-sized diamond. The man who wears a pure Bhisma stone with reverence and faith round his neck after setting it in gold acquires wealth. Wild leopards, wolves, Sarabhas (the fabulous eight-footed monsters), elephants, lions, tigers, fly from him at the very sight. Nice, isn't it? But wait for erudition from the two esses in Delhi Respects, Rama ayirpamar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: One thing I must say is that I am glad I have put off completing the book, but will definitely put a final semblance to it before my next birthday as TP this year calls for it…I have already spoken to a friend of mine where I will spend a few months incommunicado/in isolation on his Island. So a sabbatical soon, Bud. Dear Swee, Leave me out of translations, please, since I'm Sanskrit-illiterate. And my best wishes for your book. Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Er, not to be rude, it maybe fine to have a translation………. means nothing. So after all that, what is karketana and bhismanai? Love, Swee Dear Swee, You don't ever need to apologize to expose my ignorance J The vast mass of Indian literature both, indigenous and foreign, have references to Indian gemstones. All this knowledge was compiled into a science called Ratna-Pariksha. Kautilya's Arthasastra, Vatsyayana's Kamasutra, Varahamihira's Brihatsamhita and Buddhabhatta's Ratna-Pariksha are considered the authoritative texts from the past. The earliest text in this connection is the Arthasastra and then, the Kamasutra, which included gemology among the sixty-four Anga-Vidyas or subsidiary arts. The Ratna-Pariksha section in Varahamihira's Brihatsamhita and the Ratna-Pariksha of Buddhabhatta, a Buddhist scholar, are later works and both have referred to earlier authorities. Brihatsamhita has listed twenty-two varieties of stones in the category of ratnas (gems) without differentiating between the major gems (maharatna) and minor gems (uparatnas), a classification which seems to have developed later. The twenty-two ratnas are Vajra (diamond), Indranila (sapphire), Marakata (emerald), Karketana (chrysoberyl), Padmaraga (ruby), Rudhirakhya (carnelian), Vaidurya (cat's eye), Pulaka (garnet), Vimalaka, Raja-mani, Sphatika (rock crystal), Sasikanta (moonstone), Saugandhika (a variety of sapphire), Pushparaga (topaz), Brahmamani, Jyotirasa, Sasyaka, Mukta (pearl) and Pravals (coral). Of these, the Ratna-Pariksha section of the Brihatsamhita deals with four gems in great detail: diamond, pearl, ruby and emerald. The rest like sapphire, chrysoberyl, garnet and so on are mentioned only in passing. From what I know, Vatsyayana's Ratna Pariksha has analysis showing 24 characteristics of gems or precious stones, natural and artificial ones; their forms, weights, etc are discussed and classified into categories. 32 methods of testing them for genuineness are also described. That should leave not much doubt as to what term corresponds to which stone. Ratna Pariksha by Devanathachariar might be a worthwhile, inexpensive read too. Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar PS: Leaving this thread now, Swee, since there's nothing else I know J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 hare rama krishna, namaste , Uparatna- semi-precious stones. I think, the terminology of precious / semi-precious has more to do with commercial supply of stones as oppose to an inherent classification based on its Vedic value....further, in ancient times, only the nine- navaratnas were known to man and therefore they came to be known as more valuable whereas the others kept coming later (till date)...but that's just my confused (mostly always these days) mind !!! namaste; gaurav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 In a message dated 6/14/2005 6:27:54 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, swee writes: The sapphire and ruby are all from the same family, emerald from the beryl family, diamond is its own. Not much else……….BUT what we have all failed to do so far is read in between the lines that clearly state what these gemstones are really being used for. The so called uparatnas are mostly for prosperity or progeny and the mainstream ones are mainly for spiritual purposes. Are people willing to accept that? Unlikely……… and we all know the reason is because they are so much cheaper. Humans have this stigma: If it is cheap, it is of no use. Hare Rama Krishna, Namaste Swee Ji, I am questioning everything I have come to know ! I personally can attest to one jatak wearing a neelam and securing windfall of money within hours ( literally). Sometimes, a planet is just waiting to give its results, and all that is needed is that little extra push... Please educate; Namaste; gaurav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Jaya Jagannatha Dear Ramapriya, Namaste Enmeshed on the internet tripe yet again………….sigh. Ratna in this case may not necessarily mean gemstone. Please look up the English dictionary for the run down on the meaning of gem. Love, Swee On Behalf Of Ramapriya D Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:40 PM Re: [Jaya Jagannatha] Vaidurya - Sarbani On 6/14/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Rama, Namaste Er, not to be rude, it maybe fine to have a translation………. means nothing. So after all that, what is karketana and bhismanai? Love, Swee Dear Swee, You don't ever need to apologize to expose my ignorance J The vast mass of Indian literature both, indigenous and foreign, have references to Indian gemstones. All this knowledge was compiled into a science called Ratna-Pariksha. Kautilya's Arthasastra, Vatsyayana's Kamasutra, Varahamihira's Brihatsamhita and Buddhabhatta's Ratna-Pariksha are considered the authoritative texts from the past. The earliest text in this connection is the Arthasastra and then, the Kamasutra, which included gemology among the sixty-four Anga-Vidyas or subsidiary arts. The Ratna-Pariksha section in Varahamihira's Brihatsamhita and the Ratna-Pariksha of Buddhabhatta, a Buddhist scholar, are later works and both have referred to earlier authorities. Brihatsamhita has listed twenty-two varieties of stones in the category of ratnas (gems) without differentiating between the major gems (maharatna) and minor gems (uparatnas), a classification which seems to have developed later. The twenty-two ratnas are Vajra (diamond), Indranila (sapphire), Marakata (emerald), Karketana (chrysoberyl), Padmaraga (ruby), Rudhirakhya (carnelian), Vaidurya (cat's eye), Pulaka (garnet), Vimalaka, Raja-mani, Sphatika (rock crystal), Sasikanta (moonstone), Saugandhika (a variety of sapphire), Pushparaga (topaz), Brahmamani, Jyotirasa, Sasyaka, Mukta (pearl) and Pravals (coral). Of these, the Ratna-Pariksha section of the Brihatsamhita deals with four gems in great detail: diamond, pearl, ruby and emerald. The rest like sapphire, chrysoberyl, garnet and so on are mentioned only in passing. From what I know, Vatsyayana's Ratna Pariksha has analysis showing 24 characteristics of gems or precious stones, natural and artificial ones; their forms, weights, etc are discussed and classified into categories. 32 methods of testing them for genuineness are also described. That should leave not much doubt as to what term corresponds to which stone. Ratna Pariksha by Devanathachariar might be a worthwhile, inexpensive read too. Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar PS: Leaving this thread now, Swee, since there's nothing else I know J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 On 6/15/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote: Jaya Jagannatha Dear Ramapriya, Namaste Enmeshed on the internet tripe yet again………….sigh. Ratna in this case may not necessarily mean gemstone. Please look up the English dictionary for the run down on the meaning of gem. Love, Swee Dear Swee, I accept. But then, I've never claimed originality of knowledge or any such thing. It's a fact that whatever I've learnt, is mostly off the internet. Possibly it's time to gothe hardcopy way, for a change... the trouble is that I don't know Sanskrit. Sorry to have put you off; I should perhaps concentrate for a couple of days now on my vacation ;o) Respects, Ramapriya ayirpamar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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