Guest guest Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Dear Sarbani, One comment on the " pure " vs " impure " considerations regarding planets as you broach on it: ALL planets are ever pure in their finest essence. After all, Parasara equated them to Vishnu's 10 incarnations. Thus, they cannot be impure. But, why do we look at some planets or some things associated with some planets as impure? I will answer in a second. The supreme cosmic being, who has all gunas and yet untouched by gunas and who does all actions of all beings in this world and yet untouched by any action, takes on various fundamental qualities and manifests as various planets. Thus, the innermost *essence* of each planet is basically a representation of the Infinite. It is ever pure. However, an outer core evolves within the framework of duality around the innermost essence of each planet. Though the finest innermost essence of the planet is ever pure, this outer core that develops around the planet may have various qualities and part of it may be seen as pure or part of it as impure, within the framework of duality. When people talk of planets, they are talking of the outer core and hence they view planets as predominantly pure or predominantly impure and various things represented by a planet as pure or impure. But remember that the innermost core essence is perfectly pure for each planet. You can reach the infinite by reaching the finest essence of ANY planet. * * * Statements from tantra like Krishna being " saakshaat " (literally) Kaalika or equating either with a planet may baffle some. However, please note that Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, who *understood by experience* the true nature of both Krishna and Kaali, said the same thing. He said that Krishna and Kaali are essentially the same. He said the difference between them is akin to the difference between Sun and Sun's rays. When Vishnu avataras (or mahavidyas) are equated to planets, please note that we are NOT talking about everything that the planet is associated with (i.e. outer core), but the innermost essence of the planet that is ever pure and a representation of the Infinite. THAT essence can be viewed as a Vishnu avatara as well as a mahavidya, with the difference between the two being quite subtle, like the difference between Sun and Sun's rays. * * * > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality needs to > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta depicted > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking wine is > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > (enjoyment). > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To say > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have missed the > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have been many > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There is > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is associated > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal energy. > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the sign of > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the cesspool > like mud of life. Whether Chhinnamasta is " all about suppressing that " or about rising above it can be discussed later, as that is secondary. But, even as you dismiss the symbolism as " highly superficial " , you ARE alluding to the symbolism when you finally say: > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. It is Venus who actually shows carnal pleasures and not Rahu. Rahu shows materialism, but carnal pleasures ARE shown by Venus. And that does not make him impure. Let us not change the basics of astrology and make Rahu the karaka of sex. It is Venus. Moreover, as you pointed out, Chhinnamasta is also called Vajra Vairochani and is said to be lustrous and pure like a Vajra (diamond). Venus is the one associated with diamond. Munda maalaa tantra equates Chhinnamasta with Bhargava Rama, who is equated with Venus by Parasara. All the external symbolism around Chhinnamasta (sex and other pleasures) matches the external qualities associated with Venus. Her internal nature described nicely by you below (yogic powers, supreme bliss etc) also matches with Venus. Why then is suddenly Rahu brought into the picture? It should be Venus. * * * As Dattatreya's Avadhoota Gita teaches, actions are not what bind us, it is our ego (I-ness) identifying with (and attaching to) the actions that binds us. When performed without any attachment whatsoever, no action is " impure " . It is our sense that " I am doing " and " I am enjoying " that introduces impurity. When that is completely absent, one is ever pure. As actions provoking the basic instincts within us are so difficult to perform without an identification, a regular sadhaka is better off staying away from certain activities such as carnal pleasures. But it is *possible* to be established in Brahman even during such activities considered impure, as demonstrated by Dattatreya. That is the way of Venus. The way of Saturn is to silence the internal enemies and practice austerities. But the way of Venus is not to suppress so-called enjoyments, but to overcome the identification even when engaging in so-called enjoyments. After all, Venus is the teacher of demons. He is in the middle of the demons and yet remains perfectly pure being a great yogi. This is a metaphor for the fact that internally Venus is *in* one's passions and pleasures (including carnal ones) and yet he is absolutely pure. At the outer core, Venus shows all enjoyment within one, including carnal pleasures. These things may seem dirty, like Chhinnamasta's surroundings in iconography. If you go from the outer core to the innermost essence, then you catch hold of true essence of Venus, which is perfectly pure. And the glow of *that* blissful yogic essence is Chhinnamasta. Once you catch hold of the true essence of Venus (or Chhinnamasta), you are liberated. By perfecting various aspects of one's personality, i.e. by being one with the innermost essence (not the outer core) of that aspect of one's personality, one reaches the fine essence of various planets and one can become liberated. That is the point of mahavidyas. As I said before, all the planets are essentially ever pure, if you focus on their innermost essential nature and not the outward manifestation. * * * > The Todala Tantra gives a different co-relation: The list given by Todala tantra covers more than 10 goddesses and more than 10 gods. So it could be for something else. On the other hand, the list given by Munda Maalaa Tantra gives the dasa mahavidyas and dasavataras exactly and maps them. * * * > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the rung. It > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the Yamala > texts have to say on this. If you can quote anything interesting from any tantra text, we can discuss it. > I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all kinds of > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. Actually, I have been a Mahalakshmi worshipper for more than 15 years and not really away from Devi. The last time we met in Boston was 6-7 years ago. A lot happened since then. Grace of a realized master can work wonders, even with a fool. * * * Your long exposition on mahavidyas in mail 2 quoted below has nothing we have not heard before at SJC. But, the problem is that it has no unfirm binding thread. You go on to say a lot of disjoint things about a deity and suddenly one planet is tied in at the end. There is no flow of logic or uniform criteria used for linking planets. > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; the > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in amavsaya, that There are two long paragraphs on Kaali, but only the above at the end tries to explain why Kaali should be shown by Saturn. Are you suggesting that only Kaali cleanses sins and others do not? Secondly, are other mahavidyas also worshipped on the tithis of their planets? After all, Ketu does not even have a tithi and he shows one mahavidya. Then what is the logic behind deducing the planet from the tithi in one case? Using one parameter to map to one planet in one case and another parameter to map to another planet in another case is inconsistent. > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then Shodashi. Why then doesn't Moon or Saturn (ruling Purnima) show Shodasi? > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. Tri- puras > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the empress > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated with > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. She is Well, Mercury is NOT the most soumya of planets. In some charts, he can even be kroora. He simply behaves like his company. In any case, again there is no logic behind the conclusion. Why is " prithvi tattva " Mercury associated with her? What about the tattvas of planets in other cases? Is " prithvi tattva " the only " very much saguna " thing? Is jala tattva or vaayu tattva nirguna? > It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey towards > Moksha. Again, the above conclusion comes after a really long exposition and the conclusion has nothing to do with the exposition. Do you mean to say that other mahavidyas cannot cut the knots of Rahu? * * * > The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > not SJC's version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Yes, I am aware that it is not an SJC invention. But it does not seem to be backed by any scriptures and only backed by a relatively modern astrology text. Several people may have been influenced by Bhattacharya's text. Sarbani, you follow Sri Achyutananda. Sri Achyutananda said, according to a paper by Sanjay ji a decade ago, that a kali yuga sub-cycle within the current kali yuga ends around 2000 AD and a satya yuga sub-cycle starts. Isn't it possible that the kali yuga sub-cycle corrupted some knowledge and some of it will be cleaned up in the current sub-cycle? * * * Dear Vishnu, > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 authentic > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? I cannot. However, I have given a quote from an authentic tantra regarding the linking of dasavataras with dasa mahavidyas and we are all aware of Parasara's quote equating planets with dasavataras. The best I can suggest is combining the two. Planets are secondary here. The key is to understand the tattva (essence) of mahavidyas. Understand what kind of supreme liberating knowledge each mahavidya represents. Though using the correct planets helps you understand the tattva better, we need NOT think in terms of planets. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org Mail 1 being replied to: > Dear Narsimha, > > (Narasimha) Friends, there may be an outcry to my writings from astrologers > used to a different planet-mahavidya map (which is NOT sanctioned by any > scripture and yet popular today in some circles). I may not be able to > respond to all the mails. > > An outcry??? Regarding what?? No, no you have got the wrong end of the stick > here. The planet-mahavidya mapping is used by many priests and pundits who > are in no way associated with SJC. They even have them up in their websites. > So please do not start an agenda of saying this is " SJC " 's > version/unsanctioned etc. Let us instead have an intellectual theological > debate, which is far more interesting. YOU can say that though in practice > most priests and books follow a certain norm of planet-mahavidya > co-relation, but on reflection a different order appeals to you and you are > sharing that with us. > > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the rung. It > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the Yamala > texts have to say on this. I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all kinds of > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. > > Mahavidya is THE supreme knowledge. When you write: > > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality needs to > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta depicted > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking wine is > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > (enjoyment). > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To say > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have missed the > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have been many > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There is > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is associated > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal energy. > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the sign of > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the cesspool > like mud of life. At a deeper level, this blooming of the lotus is really > the blooming of our soul, the awakening. That is why the Sharadatilaka > tantra advises us to worship Kamalatmika in water as the sun rises. In her > mantra she is addressed as Jagatprasutyai ...the one who gives birth h to > this world. I think you need to work a little more on this, and I am sure > Mother will show the way. There are fantastic works done on the mahavidyas > by many exponents from the different gurukuls of India, though of course no > one writes the really deeper level experiences which can only stem from > sadhana. > > Incidentally, there are many quiet members in these lists who are extremely > spiritual and any of whom have years of experience in devi worship. I appeal > to them to share their experiences with us. > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani Rath Mail 2 being replied to: sohamsa , " Sarbani Rath " <sarbani wrote: > > Hare Rama Krishna > > Dear Narasimha, > > The Avatar-Mahavidya co-relation is for a different purpose. The Todala > Tantra gives a different co-relation: > > Nîla Târâ – Matsya > Bagalâmukhî – Kûrma > Dhumâvatî - Varâha > Chinnamastâ – Narasimha > Bhuvaneshvarî - Vâmana > Tripurasundarî (Shodasî) – Parashurâma > Mâtangî – Râma > Bhairavî – Balabhadra > Mahâkâlî – Krishna > Kamalâ – Buddha > Durgâ – Kalki > > They may be other co-relations as well. The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > not SJC’s version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Some of them have > it in their web sites, and they are not linked with SJC in any way. I don’t > think this is the issue here. The issue is to understand the different > schemes of relations between the Avatars and the Mahavidyas, for which one > needs to delve deep into the Mahavidyas and understand these various > schemes. I just wanted to share a few points about some of the Mahavidyas > for deeper reflection. > > Sadashiva/Mahakal lying beneath Kali is the nirguna, Purusha from whom the > gunatmika Prakriti, in the form of Kali, has sprung. Kali’s wild dance is > the lila of srishti. Kali’s foot, touching Sadashiva, signifies the > connection between Purusha and Prakriti; that it is the same Brahma who can > be at once nirguna (Purusha/Sadashiva) and saguna (Prakriti/Kali). The > imagery is the personification of Shivashaktiaikya or Prakritipurushaaikya. > The Avatar-Mahavidya connection depicts this aspect. Narayanchandra also > adheres to this belief. Kali holds the power to severe in one stroke, with > her khagda, the bondage of the atma with the body and mind. Thakur speaks of > his visit to Varanasi, where at Manikarnika, he saw clearly Kali moving from > corpse to corpse, detatching the soul. Although Kali is the gunatmika form > of the Brahma, in the spectrum of the forms of the Divine Feminine, she is > nirguna. She burns your sins by ‘eating’ the fruits of all your karmas, > thereby making you ready for that bandhna mukti. A special puja of hers is > the Phalaharini Kali Puja, performed without fail by Thakur each year (and > continues in the RKM Maths and Missions to this day); a very auspicious Kali > Puja, where she ‘eats’ all your karma phalas. The study of her imagery is > vast; if you go into the details about her skull garland, which represents > the varnas- mundamala is actually varnamala-; why her teeth is pressing her > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; the > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in amavsaya, that > Mahakal and Mahakali are united in a permanent embrace; in the aloneness of > the deepest of dark nights. In tantra, amaa-kalaa is known as Prakriti. A > Moon bereft of any kalaas. (The other divine form who rermoves your sins > instantly is Krishna). > > To reach Kali you must cross the bhava sagar; the ocean of karmas, the ocean > of sansar filled with the waves of our illusory attachments. Tara helps us > to cross over this sorrowful ocean, so that we can reach Kali. Hence Tarini > – she who helps us cross the bhava sagar. She is the shakti of Brihaspati > and if you read the Tararahasyam you will see that she is worshipped with > the vagbhava bija aim. (Although her mula bija is the pranava). She has > emerged from the bija Hum, by which the evils of the sansar are suppressed. > Without her strength you cannot cross that ocean. Her various forms – > Ugratara, Ekajata, Nila Sarasvati – explains further, details of the layers > of this shakti. One of Nila Sarasvati’s mantra is Aim Aim Vada Vada > Vagvidini Svaha; associations of Tara with the Guru, with knowledge. She > bestows the knowledge of crossing the ocean. > > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then Shodashi. > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. Tri- puras > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the empress > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated with > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. She is > Mantratmika. Because Mercury is related to learning; Tripurasundari is > worshipped in all guru-shishya paramparas. Incidentally she is worshipped on > Thurdays. Thakur performed the shodasa upachar puja to ma as Shodasi. > Although Ma has said, “Know that I am Bagalaâ€. (In the chart provided in her > biography by Swami Gambhirananda, she is Karka lagna with lagna lord and AK > Moon conjoined Mars). > > Devi Chhinnnamasta is the thunderbolt, the streak of lightening, which is > the shakti of Virocana, the Supreme Self, the luminosity of the Primordial > Prakasa. That is why she is Vajravairocani, the glow of the Paramatma which > flashes like a lightening and shatters the skies. She is yellow and shines > like a million suns, the glory of which destroys all desires and makes her a > Mahayogini, the supreme exponent of yogic powers and like Vajra, pure and > blazing. She epitomizes self-control by conquering sexual and selfish > desires and transforming that energy into yogic energy. Hence she is > Yogamaya, Yogamargapradayini, the acme of yogic force. The blood rushing > from below her feet to her head depicts this transformation of kunadalini > energy from its somnabulence to its blossoming through the dint of yoga and > the act of self control. Be the energy below the control of sexual desire of > Rati and Kama, or the transformation of the eternal yearning for Shiva under > her feet, both are channelized into a blazing, yogic might, which makes her > like the Vajra, untainted and pure. This primal energy rushes up her body to > meet the thousand petalled lotus in her head, culminating in the bliss of > the union with Parama Shiva. Hence she is the epitome of spiritual power > which every sadhaka seeks to acquire. The energy is also channelized into > love as the blood nourishes her devotees on her either side, who were hungry > for nourishment. So she is the food (bhojanam), the nourisher (bhokta) and > the eater (bhojyam) as she also drinks her own blood while feeding her > devotees. These two devotees are Rajas and Tamas, who could not escape the > bind of duality, and are therefore fed by the secondary channels or nadis, > Ira and Pingala. Thus they are also known by these names. The Devi as the > Sushumna, depicts Satva guna and she is the one who is able to cut the binds > of the chakras and clear the passage for the blood to rush though and unite > with Shiva in the sahasrara and then gush down to drench the sadhaka in the > bliss of the union. As the destroyer of all bonds, and the means of > achieving liberation through supreme yogic powers, Chhinnamasta is the > embodiment of Moksha. > > Rahu, the greatest of bonders, the cause of re-birth, grips the sadhaka in > its vicious coils. From its basest form of extreme greed and carnal desires, > through the treachery and trickery of its twisted mind, it seeks to engulf > all that comes before his path. Even when a person is able to avoid such > engulfment, it ensures that his path towards the union with Parama Shiva is > strewn with hurdles and makes it difficult for the sadhaka to prise himself > from his grasp. It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey towards > Moksha. Chhinnamasta therefore is the link, which allows one to travel the > trajectory from Rahu (bondage) to Ketu (liberation), wherein all desires are > dissolved. Having cut the bonds, Devi herself absorbs the poison and > transforms herself to Dhoomavati, the widow. > > > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani Rath Mail 3 being replied to: > Dear Narasimha, Visti, Sarbani et al, > > Namaste, > > Could all of you please tone down the rhetoric so that we can discuss the > issue at hand. I have a few basic questions and hope atleast one among you > can answer it/them! > > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 authentic > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? > > 2) Who do tantras stop after mapping/relating maha vidyas to dasa avataras? > > 3) Why hasn't Parasara related grahas to maha vidyas, where as he found it > so convenient to relate them to dasa avataras? > > warm regards, > Vishnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Hare Rama Krishna Dear Narasimha, Some comments below, in brief, due to paucity of time. Best Regards, Sarbani Rath Homepage: <http://sarbani.com/> http://sarbani.com Sagittarius Publications: <http://sagittariuspublications.com/> http://sagittariuspublications.com Sohamsa: <http://sohamsa.com/> http://sohamsa.com Sri Jagannath Centre: <http://.org/> http://.org sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Narasimha PVR Rao 10 June 2009 02:23 sohamsa ; ; vedic astrology ; Misc Replies on Mahavidyas Dear Sarbani, One comment on the " pure " vs " impure " considerations regarding planets as you broach on it: ALL planets are ever pure in their finest essence. After all, Parasara equated them to Vishnu's 10 incarnations. Thus, they cannot be impure. But, why do we look at some planets or some things associated with some planets as impure? I will answer in a second. The supreme cosmic being, who has all gunas and yet untouched by gunas and who does all actions of all beings in this world and yet untouched by any action, takes on various fundamental qualities and manifests as various planets. Thus, the innermost *essence* of each planet is basically a representation of the Infinite. It is ever pure. However, an outer core evolves within the framework of duality around the innermost essence of each planet. Though the finest innermost essence of the planet is ever pure, this outer core that develops around the planet may have various qualities and part of it may be seen as pure or part of it as impure, within the framework of duality. When people talk of planets, they are talking of the outer core and hence they view planets as predominantly pure or predominantly impure and various things represented by a planet as pure or impure. But remember that the innermost core essence is perfectly pure for each planet. You can reach the infinite by reaching the finest essence of ANY planet. * * * [sarbani Rath] I think most members on these lists know this Narasimha. It is fundamental to our religion and also fundamental to Jyotish. What new thing are you saying? What I was trying to say was obviously beyond this. Statements from tantra like Krishna being " saakshaat " (literally) Kaalika or equating either with a planet may baffle some. However, please note that Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, who *understood by experience* the true nature of both Krishna and Kaali, said the same thing. He said that Krishna and Kaali are essentially the same. He said the difference between them is akin to the difference between Sun and Sun's rays. [sarbani Rath] No it does not baffle most people. I think almost everyone who dabble in spirituality know this. There are entire books written on this – by western and eastern scholars. It is an intrinsic part of our spiritual tradition and spoken about eloquently in our oral tradition, in our folklore and temples. When Vishnu avataras (or mahavidyas) are equated to planets, please note that we are NOT talking about everything that the planet is associated with (i.e. outer core), but the innermost essence of the planet that is ever pure and a representation of the Infinite. THAT essence can be viewed as a Vishnu avatara as well as a mahavidya, with the difference between the two being quite subtle, like the difference between Sun and Sun's rays. [sarbani Rath] Please read what I wrote. I wrote exactly that. I assume you and everyone else on the lists know that we are talking about the inner core. I specified the aspect of that inner core. That it is a co-relation of Purusha and Prakriti. Again, this is not ‘SJC’ versions, but written by many scholars. Try David Kinsley for starters. He has devoted a whole section to this avatar-mahavidya equation. And there are many versions to it; not just Mundamala and Todala Tantras. These things are open to wide interpretations and differ from lineage to lineage. Read Arpad’s mail. And from the perspective of Jyotish, it is also the very basic that you state. Again I would like to state, contrary to your belief, most people on these lists know these things and are spiritually quite elevated. * * * > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality needs to > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta depicted > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking wine is > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > (enjoyment). > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To say > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have missed the > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have been many > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There is > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is associated > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal energy. > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the sign of > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the cesspool > like mud of life. Whether Chhinnamasta is " all about suppressing that " or about rising above it can be discussed later, as that is secondary. But, even as you dismiss the symbolism as " highly superficial " , you ARE alluding to the symbolism when you finally say: [sarbani Rath] LOL...You are the first one to dismiss people (unknown people) as holding superficial views (read your mail). I chose my words carefully. Do unto others as they would do unto you. > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. It is Venus who actually shows carnal pleasures and not Rahu. Rahu shows materialism, but carnal pleasures ARE shown by Venus. And that does not make him impure. Let us not change the basics of astrology and make Rahu the karaka of sex. It is Venus. Moreover, as you pointed out, Chhinnamasta is also called Vajra Vairochani and is said to be lustrous and pure like a Vajra (diamond). Venus is the one associated with diamond. Munda maalaa tantra equates Chhinnamasta with Bhargava Rama, who is equated with Venus by Parasara. All the external symbolism around Chhinnamasta (sex and other pleasures) matches the external qualities associated with Venus. Her internal nature described nicely by you below (yogic powers, supreme bliss etc) also matches with Venus. Why then is suddenly Rahu brought into the picture? It should be Venus. * * * [sarbani Rath] I beg to differ. Do try not to assume things and make sweeping judgements. I am quite confident of my basics in Jyotish. Venus is the karaka for sex. But gets tainted with carnality by Rahu’s associations. There is nothing wrong with Venus. But everything wrong with Venus’s association with Rahu. Mundamala Tantra did not equate Chhinnamasta with Parashu ram. You did. There is no harm in that; as these are such nebulous territories and we must explore beyond the boundaries. But there is harm in thinking, “this is the only truth.†This precludes any discussion. As Dattatreya's Avadhoota Gita teaches, actions are not what bind us, it is our ego (I-ness) identifying with (and attaching to) the actions that binds us. When performed without any attachment whatsoever, no action is " impure " . It is our sense that " I am doing " and " I am enjoying " that introduces impurity. When that is completely absent, one is ever pure. As actions provoking the basic instincts within us are so difficult to perform without an identification, a regular sadhaka is better off staying away from certain activities such as carnal pleasures. But it is *possible* to be established in Brahman even during such activities considered impure, as demonstrated by Dattatreya. That is the way of Venus. The way of Saturn is to silence the internal enemies and practice austerities. But the way of Venus is not to suppress so-called enjoyments, but to overcome the identification even when engaging in so-called enjoyments. After all, Venus is the teacher of demons. He is in the middle of the demons and yet remains perfectly pure being a great yogi. This is a metaphor for the fact that internally Venus is *in* one's passions and pleasures (including carnal ones) and yet he is absolutely pure. At the outer core, Venus shows all enjoyment within one, including carnal pleasures. These things may seem dirty, like Chhinnamasta's surroundings in iconography. If you go from the outer core to the innermost essence, then you catch hold of true essence of Venus, which is perfectly pure. And the glow of *that* blissful yogic essence is Chhinnamasta. Once you catch hold of the true essence of Venus (or Chhinnamasta), you are liberated. By perfecting various aspects of one's personality, i.e. by being one with the innermost essence (not the outer core) of that aspect of one's personality, one reaches the fine essence of various planets and one can become liberated. That is the point of mahavidyas. As I said before, all the planets are essentially ever pure, if you focus on their innermost essential nature and not the outward manifestation. [sarbani Rath] And as I also said before I am trying to direct YOU towards the innermost essence of the planets, that is the mahavidyas. I do feel your explanation of Venus and Rahu has not touched that innermost core. You need to experience the innermost essence of the planet to understand what I am trying to say about Venus and Chinnamasta. Incidentally I never said Venus needs to be suppressed as I do not associate Venus with Chhinnamasta. Venus needs to bloom like the lotus through the mud-like cess of life and cause the inner awakening within us. Rather, let me rephrase this: Venus has the potentiality to “awaken†us. This “awakening†is the blooming of the lotus. I am trying to draw you towards the inner core. Try talking to the many quiet members on these lists who are ardent devi worshippers and have done long years of mahavidya sadhana. They will show unfathomable depths of that innermost essence of the mahavidyas. * * > The Todala Tantra gives a different co-relation: The list given by Todala tantra covers more than 10 goddesses and more than 10 gods. So it could be for something else. On the other hand, the list given by Munda Maalaa Tantra gives the dasa mahavidyas and dasavataras exactly and maps them. [sarbani Rath] Not just these two. Read Kinsely’s discussion this very topic. * * * > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the rung. It > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the Yamala > texts have to say on this. If you can quote anything interesting from any tantra text, we can discuss it. [sarbani Rath] Sure. You will have to wait till I return from Jaimini 3rd year in August. > I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all kinds of > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. Actually, I have been a Mahalakshmi worshipper for more than 15 years and not really away from Devi. The last time we met in Boston was 6-7 years ago. A lot happened since then. Grace of a realized master can work wonders, even with a fool. * * * Your long exposition on mahavidyas in mail 2 quoted below has nothing we have not heard before at SJC. But, the problem is that it has no unfirm binding thread. You go on to say a lot of disjoint things about a deity and suddenly one planet is tied in at the end. There is no flow of logic or uniform criteria used for linking planets. [sarbani Rath] I specifically wrote that I was jotting down some points about some of the mahavidyas. I was not trying to give any long thesis or giving a planet by planet explanation. Nor was I giving a complete exposition on the mahavidyas. That is perhaps impossible to do. Sanjayji told me years ago, that we should consider ourselves fortunate if we could master even one mahavidya in our lifetime. But yes, I was not writing down a comprehensive detailed, connected discursion on it. Definitely not. Just some scattered bullet points. I had no intention of doing otherwise. I don’t think you would have heard this in SJC. It is incorrect to say so. Because it is not from SJC but from my studies of various sadhakas, tantra texts, discussions and some sadhana that I jotted down the points. Swami Pragyanananda, Acharya Advaitananda Puri, Acharya Brahmananda Giri, Mahesh Chandra Pal, Elisabeth Benard, David Kinsley, Narayndutt Srimali, to name a few, are some of the works. Pragyanananda’s influence is marked because of my 5 generation connection with Thakur and my spiritual initiation into Thakur’s lineage. Hence I am tilted towards the views on tantra and dasa mahavidya of Thakur and his lineage. Also I don’t think any SJC teachers who are seriously into mahavidya sadhana, have spoken anything about it. I include here Ramdasji, Ram Narayan, Swee Chan (at this very moment she is spending a month at her guru’s ashram in vrindavan), Visti. I don’t think either of them has expressed anything about their thoughts on the matter, and I include Visti in this. He has never written on the lists about his long and arduous Bagala sadhana. And I don’t think he is likely to. It is not spoken not because its secret but because it is sacred. So let’s leave out what SJC’s version is. As no one has spoken about it. Except following the planetary mapping. Sanjayji too has not spoken about it in public except to give a generalised introduction in the remedies workshop. He has not spoken about the deeper stuff even with small groups of students. Maybe only one to one with some of them after they have completed at least a years sadhana. > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; the > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in amavsaya, that There are two long paragraphs on Kaali, but only the above at the end tries to explain why Kaali should be shown by Saturn. Are you suggesting that only Kaali cleanses sins and others do not? Secondly, are other mahavidyas also worshipped on the tithis of their planets? After all, Ketu does not even have a tithi and he shows one mahavidya. Then what is the logic behind deducing the planet from the tithi in one case? [sarbani Rath] Thakur has spoken about the importance of amavasya with respect to Kali. It has a huge implication about the purusha prakriti angle. It is in amavasya, in the aloneness of the darkest of nights, that Mahakal and Mahakali unite in permanent embrace. Amavasya is Prakriti. Not just Thakur but most tantra traditions practising in Kali sadhana will tell you the importance of ama kalaa. It is a very deep concept. Using one parameter to map to one planet in one case and another parameter to map to another planet in another case is inconsistent. > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then Shodashi. Why then doesn't Moon or Saturn (ruling Purnima) show Shodasi? [sarbani Rath] Amavasya is not linked to Kali because of tithi rulership. It is much deeper than that. The comparison between Shodasi and Kali with respect to the kalaas of the Moon are in no way to linked to the tithi lordhips. See above. I state again, it is a very deep concept in tantra. > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. Tri- puras > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the empress > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated with > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. She is Well, Mercury is NOT the most soumya of planets. In some charts, he can even be kroora. He simply behaves like his company. [sarbani Rath] True. But when not associated, it is said to be one of the most saumya. In any case, again there is no logic behind the conclusion. Why is " prithvi tattva " Mercury associated with her? What about the tattvas of planets in other cases? Is " prithvi tattva " the only " very much saguna " thing? Is jala tattva or vaayu tattva nirguna? [sarbani Rath] No that is not what I meant. Of course there is some tattva association with the others as well. These are supplementary attributes. > It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey towards > Moksha. Again, the above conclusion comes after a really long exposition and the conclusion has nothing to do with the exposition. Do you mean to say that other mahavidyas cannot cut the knots of Rahu? [sarbani Rath] Again no, thats not what I meant. I just jotted down a few point for to give some pointers. * * * > The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > not SJC's version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Yes, I am aware that it is not an SJC invention. But it does not seem to be backed by any scriptures and only backed by a relatively modern astrology text. Several people may have been influenced by Bhattacharya's text. Sarbani, you follow Sri Achyutananda. Sri Achyutananda said, according to a paper by Sanjay ji a decade ago, that a kali yuga sub-cycle within the current kali yuga ends around 2000 AD and a satya yuga sub-cycle starts. Isn't it possible that the kali yuga sub-cycle corrupted some knowledge and some of it will be cleaned up in the current sub-cycle? [sarbani Rath] Narasimha, these planetary associations are followed universally across India by most temples and priests. There is a certain common parameter here. And then vastly, the lineages and sub-sects differ as Arpad nicely summarized. So I don’t think it is the influence of Bhattacharya’s text. It is a tradition commonly held in practise. Now, we can say, are there/were there other linkages that are lost or forgotten? Maybe they can throw some light? The interested seeker might search. And this will add to our understanding. The mahavidyas are vast and can never be corrupted. Try and read and speak to the sadhakas of these varied traditions of mahavidya worship, and you will be astonished at the depth of the knowledge they hold within their being. Knowledge is often hidden, and scatterd among different kinds of texts, especially those related to mahavidyas and tantric traditions. There is a huge oral tradition and there is the experience of sadhana, which is the true fount of information. It is said that only through sadhana will the mahavidyas reveal themselves to you; if they so have mercy on you. And I think it is to this that Shyam Srivastav was gently point to. * * * Dear Vishnu, > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 authentic > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? I cannot. However, I have given a quote from an authentic tantra regarding the linking of dasavataras with dasa mahavidyas and we are all aware of Parasara's quote equating planets with dasavataras. The best I can suggest is combining the two. Planets are secondary here. The key is to understand the tattva (essence) of mahavidyas. Understand what kind of supreme liberating knowledge each mahavidya represents. Though using the correct planets helps you understand the tattva better, we need NOT think in terms of planets. Best regards, Narasimha ------------------------- Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------- Mail 1 being replied to: > Dear Narsimha, > > (Narasimha) Friends, there may be an outcry to my writings from astrologers > used to a different planet-mahavidya map (which is NOT sanctioned by any > scripture and yet popular today in some circles). I may not be able to > respond to all the mails. > > An outcry??? Regarding what?? No, no you have got the wrong end of the stick > here. The planet-mahavidya mapping is used by many priests and pundits who > are in no way associated with SJC. They even have them up in their websites. > So please do not start an agenda of saying this is " SJC " 's > version/unsanctioned etc. Let us instead have an intellectual theological > debate, which is far more interesting. YOU can say that though in practice > most priests and books follow a certain norm of planet-mahavidya > co-relation, but on reflection a different order appeals to you and you are > sharing that with us. > > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the rung. It > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the Yamala > texts have to say on this. I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all kinds of > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. > > Mahavidya is THE supreme knowledge. When you write: > > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality needs to > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta depicted > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking wine is > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > (enjoyment). > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To say > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have missed the > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have been many > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There is > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is associated > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal energy. > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on the other > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the sign of > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the cesspool > like mud of life. At a deeper level, this blooming of the lotus is really > the blooming of our soul, the awakening. That is why the Sharadatilaka > tantra advises us to worship Kamalatmika in water as the sun rises. In her > mantra she is addressed as Jagatprasutyai ...the one who gives birth h to > this world. I think you need to work a little more on this, and I am sure > Mother will show the way. There are fantastic works done on the mahavidyas > by many exponents from the different gurukuls of India, though of course no > one writes the really deeper level experiences which can only stem from > sadhana. > > Incidentally, there are many quiet members in these lists who are extremely > spiritual and any of whom have years of experience in devi worship. I appeal > to them to share their experiences with us. > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani Rath Mail 2 being replied to: sohamsa <sohamsa%40> , " Sarbani Rath " <sarbani wrote: > > Hare Rama Krishna > > Dear Narasimha, > > The Avatar-Mahavidya co-relation is for a different purpose. The Todala > Tantra gives a different co-relation: > > Nîla Târâ – Matsya > Bagalâmukhî – Kûrma > Dhumâvatî - Varâha > Chinnamastâ – Narasimha > Bhuvaneshvarî - Vâmana > Tripurasundarî (Shodasî) – Parashurâma > Mâtangî – Râma > Bhairavî – Balabhadra > Mahâkâlî – Krishna > Kamalâ – Buddha > Durgâ – Kalki > > They may be other co-relations as well. The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > not SJC’s version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Some of them have > it in their web sites, and they are not linked with SJC in any way. I don’t > think this is the issue here. The issue is to understand the different > schemes of relations between the Avatars and the Mahavidyas, for which one > needs to delve deep into the Mahavidyas and understand these various > schemes. I just wanted to share a few points about some of the Mahavidyas > for deeper reflection. > > Sadashiva/Mahakal lying beneath Kali is the nirguna, Purusha from whom the > gunatmika Prakriti, in the form of Kali, has sprung. Kali’s wild dance is > the lila of srishti. Kali’s foot, touching Sadashiva, signifies the > connection between Purusha and Prakriti; that it is the same Brahma who can > be at once nirguna (Purusha/Sadashiva) and saguna (Prakriti/Kali). The > imagery is the personification of Shivashaktiaikya or Prakritipurushaaikya. > The Avatar-Mahavidya connection depicts this aspect. Narayanchandra also > adheres to this belief. Kali holds the power to severe in one stroke, with > her khagda, the bondage of the atma with the body and mind. Thakur speaks of > his visit to Varanasi, where at Manikarnika, he saw clearly Kali moving from > corpse to corpse, detatching the soul. Although Kali is the gunatmika form > of the Brahma, in the spectrum of the forms of the Divine Feminine, she is > nirguna. She burns your sins by ‘eating’ the fruits of all your karmas, > thereby making you ready for that bandhna mukti. A special puja of hers is > the Phalaharini Kali Puja, performed without fail by Thakur each year (and > continues in the RKM Maths and Missions to this day); a very auspicious Kali > Puja, where she ‘eats’ all your karma phalas. The study of her imagery is > vast; if you go into the details about her skull garland, which represents > the varnas- mundamala is actually varnamala-; why her teeth is pressing her > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; the > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in amavsaya, that > Mahakal and Mahakali are united in a permanent embrace; in the aloneness of > the deepest of dark nights. In tantra, amaa-kalaa is known as Prakriti. A > Moon bereft of any kalaas. (The other divine form who rermoves your sins > instantly is Krishna). > > To reach Kali you must cross the bhava sagar; the ocean of karmas, the ocean > of sansar filled with the waves of our illusory attachments. Tara helps us > to cross over this sorrowful ocean, so that we can reach Kali. Hence Tarini > – she who helps us cross the bhava sagar. She is the shakti of Brihaspati > and if you read the Tararahasyam you will see that she is worshipped with > the vagbhava bija aim. (Although her mula bija is the pranava). She has > emerged from the bija Hum, by which the evils of the sansar are suppressed. > Without her strength you cannot cross that ocean. Her various forms – > Ugratara, Ekajata, Nila Sarasvati – explains further, details of the layers > of this shakti. One of Nila Sarasvati’s mantra is Aim Aim Vada Vada > Vagvidini Svaha; associations of Tara with the Guru, with knowledge. She > bestows the knowledge of crossing the ocean. > > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then Shodashi. > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. Tri- puras > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the empress > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated with > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. She is > Mantratmika. Because Mercury is related to learning; Tripurasundari is > worshipped in all guru-shishya paramparas. Incidentally she is worshipped on > Thurdays. Thakur performed the shodasa upachar puja to ma as Shodasi. > Although Ma has said, “Know that I am Bagalaâ€. (In the chart provided in her > biography by Swami Gambhirananda, she is Karka lagna with lagna lord and AK > Moon conjoined Mars). > > Devi Chhinnnamasta is the thunderbolt, the streak of lightening, which is > the shakti of Virocana, the Supreme Self, the luminosity of the Primordial > Prakasa. That is why she is Vajravairocani, the glow of the Paramatma which > flashes like a lightening and shatters the skies. She is yellow and shines > like a million suns, the glory of which destroys all desires and makes her a > Mahayogini, the supreme exponent of yogic powers and like Vajra, pure and > blazing. She epitomizes self-control by conquering sexual and selfish > desires and transforming that energy into yogic energy. Hence she is > Yogamaya, Yogamargapradayini, the acme of yogic force. The blood rushing > from below her feet to her head depicts this transformation of kunadalini > energy from its somnabulence to its blossoming through the dint of yoga and > the act of self control. Be the energy below the control of sexual desire of > Rati and Kama, or the transformation of the eternal yearning for Shiva under > her feet, both are channelized into a blazing, yogic might, which makes her > like the Vajra, untainted and pure. This primal energy rushes up her body to > meet the thousand petalled lotus in her head, culminating in the bliss of > the union with Parama Shiva. Hence she is the epitome of spiritual power > which every sadhaka seeks to acquire. The energy is also channelized into > love as the blood nourishes her devotees on her either side, who were hungry > for nourishment. So she is the food (bhojanam), the nourisher (bhokta) and > the eater (bhojyam) as she also drinks her own blood while feeding her > devotees. These two devotees are Rajas and Tamas, who could not escape the > bind of duality, and are therefore fed by the secondary channels or nadis, > Ira and Pingala. Thus they are also known by these names. The Devi as the > Sushumna, depicts Satva guna and she is the one who is able to cut the binds > of the chakras and clear the passage for the blood to rush though and unite > with Shiva in the sahasrara and then gush down to drench the sadhaka in the > bliss of the union. As the destroyer of all bonds, and the means of > achieving liberation through supreme yogic powers, Chhinnamasta is the > embodiment of Moksha. > > Rahu, the greatest of bonders, the cause of re-birth, grips the sadhaka in > its vicious coils. From its basest form of extreme greed and carnal desires, > through the treachery and trickery of its twisted mind, it seeks to engulf > all that comes before his path. Even when a person is able to avoid such > engulfment, it ensures that his path towards the union with Parama Shiva is > strewn with hurdles and makes it difficult for the sadhaka to prise himself > from his grasp. It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey towards > Moksha. Chhinnamasta therefore is the link, which allows one to travel the > trajectory from Rahu (bondage) to Ketu (liberation), wherein all desires are > dissolved. Having cut the bonds, Devi herself absorbs the poison and > transforms herself to Dhoomavati, the widow. > > > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani Rath Mail 3 being replied to: > Dear Narasimha, Visti, Sarbani et al, > > Namaste, > > Could all of you please tone down the rhetoric so that we can discuss the > issue at hand. I have a few basic questions and hope atleast one among you > can answer it/them! > > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 authentic > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? > > 2) Who do tantras stop after mapping/relating maha vidyas to dasa avataras? > > 3) Why hasn't Parasara related grahas to maha vidyas, where as he found it > so convenient to relate them to dasa avataras? > > warm regards, > Vishnu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Dear Sarbani,Narasimha, Namaste! The Srividya tradition has a different form of the Goddess for each phase of the moon. Even more than the Kali kula, the phases of the moon seem to be more significant there. In addition, in their Maha Shodha Nyasa, they also have a nyasas which involves the nava graha, nakshatra, rashi etc. Since I dont belong to that tradition, I read their books more out of an interest in some particular aspects. Hence I lack insight about the real significance and can merely quote some texts on this. Regards, Shyam On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 23:44 +0530, Sarbani Rath wrote: > > > Hare Rama Krishna > > Dear Narasimha, > > Some comments below, in brief, due to paucity of time. > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani Rath > > Homepage: http://sarbani.com > > Sagittarius Publications: http://sagittariuspublications.com > > Sohamsa: http://sohamsa.com > > Sri Jagannath Centre: http://.org > > > > > sohamsa [sohamsa ] On > Behalf Of Narasimha PVR Rao > 10 June 2009 02:23 > sohamsa ; ; > vedic astrology ; > Misc Replies on Mahavidyas > > > > > Dear Sarbani, > > One comment on the " pure " vs " impure " considerations regarding planets > as you broach on it: > > ALL planets are ever pure in their finest essence. After all, Parasara > equated them to Vishnu's 10 incarnations. Thus, they cannot be impure. > But, why do we look at some planets or some things associated with > some planets as impure? I will answer in a second. > > The supreme cosmic being, who has all gunas and yet untouched by gunas > and who does all actions of all beings in this world and yet untouched > by any action, takes on various fundamental qualities and manifests as > various planets. Thus, the innermost *essence* of each planet is > basically a representation of the Infinite. It is ever pure. > > However, an outer core evolves within the framework of duality around > the innermost essence of each planet. Though the finest innermost > essence of the planet is ever pure, this outer core that develops > around the planet may have various qualities and part of it may be > seen as pure or part of it as impure, within the framework of duality. > When people talk of planets, they are talking of the outer core and > hence they view planets as predominantly pure or predominantly impure > and various things represented by a planet as pure or impure. > > But remember that the innermost core essence is perfectly pure for > each planet. You can reach the infinite by reaching the finest essence > of ANY planet. > > * * * > > [sarbani Rath] I think most members on these lists know this > Narasimha. It is fundamental to our religion and also fundamental to > Jyotish. What new thing are you saying? What I was trying to say was > obviously beyond this. > > Statements from tantra like Krishna being " saakshaat " (literally) > Kaalika or equating either with a planet may baffle some. However, > please note that Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, who *understood by > experience* the true nature of both Krishna and Kaali, said the same > thing. He said that Krishna and Kaali are essentially the same. He > said the difference between them is akin to the difference between Sun > and Sun's rays. > > [sarbani Rath] No it does not baffle most people. I think almost > everyone who dabble in spirituality know this. There are entire books > written on this – by western and eastern scholars. It is an intrinsic > part of our spiritual tradition and spoken about eloquently in our > oral tradition, in our folklore and temples. > > When Vishnu avataras (or mahavidyas) are equated to planets, please > note that we are NOT talking about everything that the planet is > associated with (i.e. outer core), but the innermost essence of the > planet that is ever pure and a representation of the Infinite. THAT > essence can be viewed as a Vishnu avatara as well as a mahavidya, with > the difference between the two being quite subtle, like the difference > between Sun and Sun's rays. > > [sarbani Rath] Please read what I wrote. I wrote exactly that. I > assume you and everyone else on the lists know that we are talking > about the inner core. I specified the aspect of that inner core. That > it is a co-relation of Purusha and Prakriti. Again, this is not ‘SJC’ > versions, but written by many scholars. Try David Kinsley for > starters. He has devoted a whole section to this avatar-mahavidya > equation. And there are many versions to it; not just Mundamala and > Todala Tantras. These things are open to wide interpretations and > differ from lineage to lineage. Read Arpad’s mail. And from the > perspective of Jyotish, it is also the very basic that you state. > Again I would like to state, contrary to your belief, most people on > these lists know these things and are spiritually quite elevated. > > * * * > > > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality > needs to > > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta > depicted > > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking > wine is > > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > > (enjoyment). > > > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To > say > > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have > missed the > > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have > been many > > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There > is > > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is > associated > > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal > energy. > > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on > the other > > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the > sign of > > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the > cesspool > > like mud of life. > > Whether Chhinnamasta is " all about suppressing that " or about rising > above it can be discussed later, as that is secondary. But, even as > you dismiss the symbolism as " highly superficial " , you ARE alluding to > the symbolism when you finally say: > > [sarbani Rath] LOL...You are the first one to dismiss people (unknown > people) as holding superficial views (read your mail). I chose my > words carefully. Do unto others as they would do unto you. > > > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on > the other > > hand is the purest of them all. > > It is Venus who actually shows carnal pleasures and not Rahu. Rahu > shows materialism, but carnal pleasures ARE shown by Venus. And that > does not make him impure. Let us not change the basics of astrology > and make Rahu the karaka of sex. It is Venus. Moreover, as you pointed > out, Chhinnamasta is also called Vajra Vairochani and is said to be > lustrous and pure like a Vajra (diamond). Venus is the one associated > with diamond. > > Munda maalaa tantra equates Chhinnamasta with Bhargava Rama, who is > equated with Venus by Parasara. All the external symbolism around > Chhinnamasta (sex and other pleasures) matches the external qualities > associated with Venus. Her internal nature described nicely by you > below (yogic powers, supreme bliss etc) also matches with Venus. Why > then is suddenly Rahu brought into the picture? It should be Venus. > > * * * > > [sarbani Rath] I beg to differ. Do try not to assume things and make > sweeping judgements. I am quite confident of my basics in Jyotish. > Venus is the karaka for sex. But gets tainted with carnality by > Rahu’s associations. There is nothing wrong with Venus. But > everything wrong with Venus’s association with Rahu. Mundamala Tantra > did not equate Chhinnamasta with Parashu ram. You did. There is no > harm in that; as these are such nebulous territories and we must > explore beyond the boundaries. But there is harm in thinking, “this is > the only truth.†This precludes any discussion. > > As Dattatreya's Avadhoota Gita teaches, actions are not what bind us, > it is our ego (I-ness) identifying with (and attaching to) the actions > that binds us. When performed without any attachment whatsoever, no > action is " impure " . It is our sense that " I am doing " and " I am > enjoying " that introduces impurity. When that is completely absent, > one is ever pure. > > As actions provoking the basic instincts within us are so difficult to > perform without an identification, a regular sadhaka is better off > staying away from certain activities such as carnal pleasures. But it > is *possible* to be established in Brahman even during such activities > considered impure, as demonstrated by Dattatreya. That is the way of > Venus. > > The way of Saturn is to silence the internal enemies and practice > austerities. But the way of Venus is not to suppress so-called > enjoyments, but to overcome the identification even when engaging in > so-called enjoyments. > > After all, Venus is the teacher of demons. He is in the middle of the > demons and yet remains perfectly pure being a great yogi. This is a > metaphor for the fact that internally Venus is *in* one's passions and > pleasures (including carnal ones) and yet he is absolutely pure. At > the outer core, Venus shows all enjoyment within one, including carnal > pleasures. These things may seem dirty, like Chhinnamasta's > surroundings in iconography. If you go from the outer core to the > innermost essence, then you catch hold of true essence of Venus, which > is perfectly pure. And the glow of *that* blissful yogic essence is > Chhinnamasta. Once you catch hold of the true essence of Venus (or > Chhinnamasta), you are liberated. > > By perfecting various aspects of one's personality, i.e. by being one > with the innermost essence (not the outer core) of that aspect of > one's personality, one reaches the fine essence of various planets and > one can become liberated. That is the point of mahavidyas. > > As I said before, all the planets are essentially ever pure, if you > focus on their innermost essential nature and not the outward > manifestation. > > [sarbani Rath] And as I also said before I am trying to direct YOU > towards the innermost essence of the planets, that is the mahavidyas. > I do feel your explanation of Venus and Rahu has not touched that > innermost core. You need to experience the innermost essence of the > planet to understand what I am trying to say about Venus and > Chinnamasta. Incidentally I never said Venus needs to be suppressed as > I do not associate Venus with Chhinnamasta. Venus needs to bloom like > the lotus through the mud-like cess of life and cause the inner > awakening within us. Rather, let me rephrase this: Venus has the > potentiality to “awaken†us. This “awakening†is the blooming of the > lotus. I am trying to draw you towards the inner core. Try talking to > the many quiet members on these lists who are ardent devi worshippers > and have done long years of mahavidya sadhana. They will show > unfathomable depths of that innermost essence of the mahavidyas. > > * * > > > The Todala Tantra gives a different co-relation: > > The list given by Todala tantra covers more than 10 goddesses and more > than 10 gods. So it could be for something else. On the other hand, > the list given by Munda Maalaa Tantra gives the dasa mahavidyas and > dasavataras exactly and maps them. > > > > [sarbani Rath] Not just these two. Read Kinsely’s discussion this very > topic. > > * * * > > > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the > rung. It > > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the > Yamala > > texts have to say on this. > > If you can quote anything interesting from any tantra text, we can > discuss it. > > [sarbani Rath] Sure. You will have to wait till I return from Jaimini > 3rd year in August. > > > I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all > kinds of > > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. > > Actually, I have been a Mahalakshmi worshipper for more than 15 years > and not really away from Devi. The last time we met in Boston was 6-7 > years ago. A lot happened since then. Grace of a realized master can > work wonders, even with a fool. > > * * * > Your long exposition on mahavidyas in mail 2 quoted below has nothing > we have not heard before at SJC. But, the problem is that it has no > unfirm binding thread. You go on to say a lot of disjoint things about > a deity and suddenly one planet is tied in at the end. There is no > flow of logic or uniform criteria used for linking planets. > > [sarbani Rath] I specifically wrote that I was jotting down some > points about some of the mahavidyas. I was not trying to give any long > thesis or giving a planet by planet explanation. Nor was I giving a > complete exposition on the mahavidyas. That is perhaps impossible to > do. Sanjayji told me years ago, that we should consider ourselves > fortunate if we could master even one mahavidya in our lifetime. But > yes, I was not writing down a comprehensive detailed, connected > discursion on it. Definitely not. Just some scattered bullet points. I > had no intention of doing otherwise. I don’t think you would have > heard this in SJC. It is incorrect to say so. Because it is not from > SJC but from my studies of various sadhakas, tantra texts, discussions > and some sadhana that I jotted down the points. Swami Pragyanananda, > Acharya Advaitananda Puri, Acharya Brahmananda Giri, Mahesh Chandra > Pal, Elisabeth Benard, David Kinsley, Narayndutt Srimali, to name a > few, are some of the works. Pragyanananda’s influence is marked > because of my 5 generation connection with Thakur and my spiritual > initiation into Thakur’s lineage. Hence I am tilted towards the views > on tantra and dasa mahavidya of Thakur and his lineage. Also I don’t > think any SJC teachers who are seriously into mahavidya sadhana, have > spoken anything about it. I include here Ramdasji, Ram Narayan, Swee > Chan (at this very moment she is spending a month at her guru’s ashram > in vrindavan), Visti. I don’t think either of them has expressed > anything about their thoughts on the matter, and I include Visti in > this. He has never written on the lists about his long and arduous > Bagala sadhana. And I don’t think he is likely to. It is not spoken > not because its secret but because it is sacred. So let’s leave out > what SJC’s version is. As no one has spoken about it. Except following > the planetary mapping. Sanjayji too has not spoken about it in public > except to give a generalised introduction in the remedies workshop. > He has not spoken about the deeper stuff even with small groups of > students. Maybe only one to one with some of them after they have > completed at least a years sadhana. > > > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; > the > > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in > amavsaya, that > > There are two long paragraphs on Kaali, but only the above at the end > tries to explain why Kaali should be shown by Saturn. Are you > suggesting that only Kaali cleanses sins and others do not? Secondly, > are other mahavidyas also worshipped on the tithis of their planets? > After all, Ketu does not even have a tithi and he shows one mahavidya. > Then what is the logic behind deducing the planet from the tithi in > one case? > > [sarbani Rath] Thakur has spoken about the importance of amavasya > with respect to Kali. It has a huge implication about the purusha > prakriti angle. It is in amavasya, in the aloneness of the darkest of > nights, that Mahakal and Mahakali unite in permanent embrace. Amavasya > is Prakriti. Not just Thakur but most tantra traditions practising in > Kali sadhana will tell you the importance of ama kalaa. It is a very > deep concept. > > Using one parameter to map to one planet in one case and another > parameter to map to another planet in another case is inconsistent. > > > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then > Shodashi. > > Why then doesn't Moon or Saturn (ruling Purnima) show Shodasi? > > [sarbani Rath] Amavasya is not linked to Kali because of tithi > rulership. It is much deeper than that. The comparison between > Shodasi and Kali with respect to the kalaas of the Moon are in no way > to linked to the tithi lordhips. See above. I state again, it is a > very deep concept in tantra. > > > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. > Tri- puras > > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the > empress > > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated > with > > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. > She is > > Well, Mercury is NOT the most soumya of planets. In some charts, he > can even be kroora. He simply behaves like his company. > > [sarbani Rath] True. But when not associated, it is said to be one of > the most saumya. > > In any case, again there is no logic behind the conclusion. Why is > " prithvi tattva " Mercury associated with her? What about the tattvas > of planets in other cases? Is " prithvi tattva " the only " very much > saguna " thing? Is jala tattva or vaayu tattva nirguna? > > [sarbani Rath] No that is not what I meant. Of course there is some > tattva association with the others as well. These are supplementary > attributes. > > > > It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey > towards > > Moksha. > > Again, the above conclusion comes after a really long exposition and > the conclusion has nothing to do with the exposition. Do you mean to > say that other mahavidyas cannot cut the knots of Rahu? > > [sarbani Rath] Again no, thats not what I meant. I just jotted down a > few point for to give some pointers. > > * * * > > > The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > > not SJC's version. It is used by many pandits and priests. > > Yes, I am aware that it is not an SJC invention. But it does not seem > to be backed by any scriptures and only backed by a relatively modern > astrology text. Several people may have been influenced by > Bhattacharya's text. > > Sarbani, you follow Sri Achyutananda. Sri Achyutananda said, according > to a paper by Sanjay ji a decade ago, that a kali yuga sub-cycle > within the current kali yuga ends around 2000 AD and a satya yuga > sub-cycle starts. Isn't it possible that the kali yuga sub-cycle > corrupted some knowledge and some of it will be cleaned up in the > current sub-cycle? > > [sarbani Rath] Narasimha, these planetary associations are followed > universally across India by most temples and priests. There is a > certain common parameter here. And then vastly, the lineages and > sub-sects differ as Arpad nicely summarized. So I don’t think it is > the influence of Bhattacharya’s text. It is a tradition commonly held > in practise. Now, we can say, are there/were there other linkages that > are lost or forgotten? Maybe they can throw some light? The interested > seeker might search. And this will add to our understanding. The > mahavidyas are vast and can never be corrupted. Try and read and speak > to the sadhakas of these varied traditions of mahavidya worship, and > you will be astonished at the depth of the knowledge they hold within > their being. Knowledge is often hidden, and scatterd among different > kinds of texts, especially those related to mahavidyas and tantric > traditions. There is a huge oral tradition and there is the experience > of sadhana, which is the true fount of information. It is said that > only through sadhana will the mahavidyas reveal themselves to you; if > they so have mercy on you. And I think it is to this that Shyam > Srivastav was gently point to. > > > > * * * > > Dear Vishnu, > > > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 > authentic > > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? > > I cannot. However, I have given a quote from an authentic tantra > regarding the linking of dasavataras with dasa mahavidyas and we are > all aware of Parasara's quote equating planets with dasavataras. The > best I can suggest is combining the two. > > Planets are secondary here. The key is to understand the tattva > (essence) of mahavidyas. Understand what kind of supreme liberating > knowledge each mahavidya represents. Though using the correct planets > helps you understand the tattva better, we need NOT think in terms of > planets. > > Best regards, > Narasimha > ------------------------- > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------------- > > Mail 1 being replied to: > > > Dear Narsimha, > > > > (Narasimha) Friends, there may be an outcry to my writings from > astrologers > > used to a different planet-mahavidya map (which is NOT sanctioned by > any > > scripture and yet popular today in some circles). I may not be able > to > > respond to all the mails. > > > > An outcry??? Regarding what?? No, no you have got the wrong end of > the stick > > here. The planet-mahavidya mapping is used by many priests and > pundits who > > are in no way associated with SJC. They even have them up in their > websites. > > So please do not start an agenda of saying this is " SJC " 's > > version/unsanctioned etc. Let us instead have an intellectual > theological > > debate, which is far more interesting. YOU can say that though in > practice > > most priests and books follow a certain norm of planet-mahavidya > > co-relation, but on reflection a different order appeals to you and > you are > > sharing that with us. > > > > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of the > rung. It > > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, the > > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the > Yamala > > texts have to say on this. I am delighted that you have at last > succumbed to > > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all > kinds of > > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. > > > > Mahavidya is THE supreme knowledge. When you write: > > > > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this duality > needs to > > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind Chhinnamasta > depicted > > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates drinking > wine is > > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of Venus > > (enjoyment). > > > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. To > say > > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have > missed the > > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have > been many > > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. There > is > > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is > associated > > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal > energy. > > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on > the other > > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the > sign of > > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from the > cesspool > > like mud of life. At a deeper level, this blooming of the lotus is > really > > the blooming of our soul, the awakening. That is why the > Sharadatilaka > > tantra advises us to worship Kamalatmika in water as the sun rises. > In her > > mantra she is addressed as Jagatprasutyai ...the one who gives birth > h to > > this world. I think you need to work a little more on this, and I am > sure > > Mother will show the way. There are fantastic works done on the > mahavidyas > > by many exponents from the different gurukuls of India, though of > course no > > one writes the really deeper level experiences which can only stem > from > > sadhana. > > > > Incidentally, there are many quiet members in these lists who are > extremely > > spiritual and any of whom have years of experience in devi worship. > I appeal > > to them to share their experiences with us. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Sarbani Rath > > Mail 2 being replied to: > > sohamsa , " Sarbani Rath " <sarbani wrote: > > > > Hare Rama Krishna > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > The Avatar-Mahavidya co-relation is for a different purpose. The > Todala > > Tantra gives a different co-relation: > > > > Nîla Târâ – Matsya > > Bagalâmukhî – Kûrma > > Dhumâvatî - Varâha > > Chinnamastâ – Narasimha > > Bhuvaneshvarî - Vâmana > > Tripurasundarî (Shodasî) – Parashurâma > > Mâtangî – Râma > > Bhairavî – Balabhadra > > Mahâkâlî – Krishna > > Kamalâ – Buddha > > Durgâ – Kalki > > > > They may be other co-relations as well. The Planet-Mahavidya > co-relation is > > not SJC’s version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Some of > them have > > it in their web sites, and they are not linked with SJC in any way. > I don’t > > think this is the issue here. The issue is to understand the > different > > schemes of relations between the Avatars and the Mahavidyas, for > which one > > needs to delve deep into the Mahavidyas and understand these various > > schemes. I just wanted to share a few points about some of the > Mahavidyas > > for deeper reflection. > > > > Sadashiva/Mahakal lying beneath Kali is the nirguna, Purusha from > whom the > > gunatmika Prakriti, in the form of Kali, has sprung. Kali’s wild > dance is > > the lila of srishti. Kali’s foot, touching Sadashiva, signifies the > > connection between Purusha and Prakriti; that it is the same Brahma > who can > > be at once nirguna (Purusha/Sadashiva) and saguna (Prakriti/Kali). > The > > imagery is the personification of Shivashaktiaikya or > Prakritipurushaaikya. > > The Avatar-Mahavidya connection depicts this aspect. Narayanchandra > also > > adheres to this belief. Kali holds the power to severe in one > stroke, with > > her khagda, the bondage of the atma with the body and mind. Thakur > speaks of > > his visit to Varanasi, where at Manikarnika, he saw clearly Kali > moving from > > corpse to corpse, detatching the soul. Although Kali is the > gunatmika form > > of the Brahma, in the spectrum of the forms of the Divine Feminine, > she is > > nirguna. She burns your sins by ‘eating’ the fruits of all your > karmas, > > thereby making you ready for that bandhna mukti. A special puja of > hers is > > the Phalaharini Kali Puja, performed without fail by Thakur each > year (and > > continues in the RKM Maths and Missions to this day); a very > auspicious Kali > > Puja, where she ‘eats’ all your karma phalas. The study of her > imagery is > > vast; if you go into the details about her skull garland, which > represents > > the varnas- mundamala is actually varnamala-; why her teeth is > pressing her > > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; > the > > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in > amavsaya, that > > Mahakal and Mahakali are united in a permanent embrace; in the > aloneness of > > the deepest of dark nights. In tantra, amaa-kalaa is known as > Prakriti. A > > Moon bereft of any kalaas. (The other divine form who rermoves your > sins > > instantly is Krishna). > > > > To reach Kali you must cross the bhava sagar; the ocean of karmas, > the ocean > > of sansar filled with the waves of our illusory attachments. Tara > helps us > > to cross over this sorrowful ocean, so that we can reach Kali. Hence > Tarini > > – she who helps us cross the bhava sagar. She is the shakti of > Brihaspati > > and if you read the Tararahasyam you will see that she is worshipped > with > > the vagbhava bija aim. (Although her mula bija is the pranava). She > has > > emerged from the bija Hum, by which the evils of the sansar are > suppressed. > > Without her strength you cannot cross that ocean. Her various forms > – > > Ugratara, Ekajata, Nila Sarasvati – explains further, details of the > layers > > of this shakti. One of Nila Sarasvati’s mantra is Aim Aim Vada Vada > > Vagvidini Svaha; associations of Tara with the Guru, with knowledge. > She > > bestows the knowledge of crossing the ocean. > > > > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then > Shodashi. > > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. > Tri- puras > > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is the > empress > > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is associated > with > > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. > She is > > Mantratmika. Because Mercury is related to learning; Tripurasundari > is > > worshipped in all guru-shishya paramparas. Incidentally she is > worshipped on > > Thurdays. Thakur performed the shodasa upachar puja to ma as > Shodasi. > > Although Ma has said, “Know that I am Bagalaâ€. (In the chart > provided in her > > biography by Swami Gambhirananda, she is Karka lagna with lagna lord > and AK > > Moon conjoined Mars). > > > > Devi Chhinnnamasta is the thunderbolt, the streak of lightening, > which is > > the shakti of Virocana, the Supreme Self, the luminosity of the > Primordial > > Prakasa. That is why she is Vajravairocani, the glow of the > Paramatma which > > flashes like a lightening and shatters the skies. She is yellow and > shines > > like a million suns, the glory of which destroys all desires and > makes her a > > Mahayogini, the supreme exponent of yogic powers and like Vajra, > pure and > > blazing. She epitomizes self-control by conquering sexual and > selfish > > desires and transforming that energy into yogic energy. Hence she is > > Yogamaya, Yogamargapradayini, the acme of yogic force. The blood > rushing > > from below her feet to her head depicts this transformation of > kunadalini > > energy from its somnabulence to its blossoming through the dint of > yoga and > > the act of self control. Be the energy below the control of sexual > desire of > > Rati and Kama, or the transformation of the eternal yearning for > Shiva under > > her feet, both are channelized into a blazing, yogic might, which > makes her > > like the Vajra, untainted and pure. This primal energy rushes up her > body to > > meet the thousand petalled lotus in her head, culminating in the > bliss of > > the union with Parama Shiva. Hence she is the epitome of spiritual > power > > which every sadhaka seeks to acquire. The energy is also channelized > into > > love as the blood nourishes her devotees on her either side, who > were hungry > > for nourishment. So she is the food (bhojanam), the nourisher > (bhokta) and > > the eater (bhojyam) as she also drinks her own blood while feeding > her > > devotees. These two devotees are Rajas and Tamas, who could not > escape the > > bind of duality, and are therefore fed by the secondary channels or > nadis, > > Ira and Pingala. Thus they are also known by these names. The Devi > as the > > Sushumna, depicts Satva guna and she is the one who is able to cut > the binds > > of the chakras and clear the passage for the blood to rush though > and unite > > with Shiva in the sahasrara and then gush down to drench the sadhaka > in the > > bliss of the union. As the destroyer of all bonds, and the means of > > achieving liberation through supreme yogic powers, Chhinnamasta is > the > > embodiment of Moksha. > > > > Rahu, the greatest of bonders, the cause of re-birth, grips the > sadhaka in > > its vicious coils. From its basest form of extreme greed and carnal > desires, > > through the treachery and trickery of its twisted mind, it seeks to > engulf > > all that comes before his path. Even when a person is able to avoid > such > > engulfment, it ensures that his path towards the union with Parama > Shiva is > > strewn with hurdles and makes it difficult for the sadhaka to prise > himself > > from his grasp. It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the > knots of > > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey > towards > > Moksha. Chhinnamasta therefore is the link, which allows one to > travel the > > trajectory from Rahu (bondage) to Ketu (liberation), wherein all > desires are > > dissolved. Having cut the bonds, Devi herself absorbs the poison and > > transforms herself to Dhoomavati, the widow. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Sarbani Rath > > Mail 3 being replied to: > > > Dear Narasimha, Visti, Sarbani et al, > > > > Namaste, > > > > Could all of you please tone down the rhetoric so that we can > discuss the > > issue at hand. I have a few basic questions and hope atleast one > among you > > can answer it/them! > > > > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 > authentic > > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? > > > > 2) Who do tantras stop after mapping/relating maha vidyas to dasa > avataras? > > > > 3) Why hasn't Parasara related grahas to maha vidyas, where as he > found it > > so convenient to relate them to dasa avataras? > > > > warm regards, > > Vishnu > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks NARAYAN IYER for your message by different different ids. vedic astrology , " Shyam V. Srivatsa " <shyam.srivatsa wrote: > > In this context of course by Kali kula, I mean the tiny portion of the > non-Srividya world that is known to me... > > Regards, > > Shyam > > On Thu, 2009-06-11 at 00:09 +0530, Shyam V. Srivatsa wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sarbani,Narasimha, > > Namaste! The Srividya tradition has a different form of > > the Goddess for each phase of the moon. Even more than the Kali kula, > > the phases of the moon seem to be more significant there. In addition, > > in their Maha Shodha Nyasa, they also have a nyasas which involves the > > nava graha, nakshatra, rashi etc. > > > > Since I dont belong to that tradition, I read their books more out of > > an > > interest in some particular aspects. Hence I lack insight about the > > real > > significance and can merely quote some texts on this. > > > > Regards, > > > > Shyam > > > > On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 23:44 +0530, Sarbani Rath wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > Some comments below, in brief, due to paucity of time. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Sarbani Rath > > > > > > Homepage: http://sarbani.com > > > > > > Sagittarius Publications: http://sagittariuspublications.com > > > > > > Sohamsa: http://sohamsa.com > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Centre: http://.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa [sohamsa ] On > > > Behalf Of Narasimha PVR Rao > > > 10 June 2009 02:23 > > > sohamsa ; ; > > > vedic astrology ; > > > Misc Replies on Mahavidyas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sarbani, > > > > > > One comment on the " pure " vs " impure " considerations regarding > > planets > > > as you broach on it: > > > > > > ALL planets are ever pure in their finest essence. After all, > > Parasara > > > equated them to Vishnu's 10 incarnations. Thus, they cannot be > > impure. > > > But, why do we look at some planets or some things associated with > > > some planets as impure? I will answer in a second. > > > > > > The supreme cosmic being, who has all gunas and yet untouched by > > gunas > > > and who does all actions of all beings in this world and yet > > untouched > > > by any action, takes on various fundamental qualities and manifests > > as > > > various planets. Thus, the innermost *essence* of each planet is > > > basically a representation of the Infinite. It is ever pure. > > > > > > However, an outer core evolves within the framework of duality > > around > > > the innermost essence of each planet. Though the finest innermost > > > essence of the planet is ever pure, this outer core that develops > > > around the planet may have various qualities and part of it may be > > > seen as pure or part of it as impure, within the framework of > > duality. > > > When people talk of planets, they are talking of the outer core and > > > hence they view planets as predominantly pure or predominantly > > impure > > > and various things represented by a planet as pure or impure. > > > > > > But remember that the innermost core essence is perfectly pure for > > > each planet. You can reach the infinite by reaching the finest > > essence > > > of ANY planet. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] I think most members on these lists know this > > > Narasimha. It is fundamental to our religion and also fundamental to > > > Jyotish. What new thing are you saying? What I was trying to say was > > > obviously beyond this. > > > > > > Statements from tantra like Krishna being " saakshaat " (literally) > > > Kaalika or equating either with a planet may baffle some. However, > > > please note that Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, who *understood by > > > experience* the true nature of both Krishna and Kaali, said the same > > > thing. He said that Krishna and Kaali are essentially the same. He > > > said the difference between them is akin to the difference between > > Sun > > > and Sun's rays. > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] No it does not baffle most people. I think almost > > > everyone who dabble in spirituality know this. There are entire > > books > > > written on this †" by western and eastern scholars. It is an > > intrinsic > > > part of our spiritual tradition and spoken about eloquently in our > > > oral tradition, in our folklore and temples. > > > > > > When Vishnu avataras (or mahavidyas) are equated to planets, please > > > note that we are NOT talking about everything that the planet is > > > associated with (i.e. outer core), but the innermost essence of the > > > planet that is ever pure and a representation of the Infinite. THAT > > > essence can be viewed as a Vishnu avatara as well as a mahavidya, > > with > > > the difference between the two being quite subtle, like the > > difference > > > between Sun and Sun's rays. > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] Please read what I wrote. I wrote exactly that. I > > > assume you and everyone else on the lists know that we are talking > > > about the inner core. I specified the aspect of that inner core. > > That > > > it is a co-relation of Purusha and Prakriti. Again, this is not > > ‘SJC’ > > > versions, but written by many scholars. Try David Kinsley for > > > starters. He has devoted a whole section to this avatar-mahavidya > > > equation. And there are many versions to it; not just Mundamala and > > > Todala Tantras. These things are open to wide interpretations and > > > differ from lineage to lineage. Read Arpad’s mail. And from the > > > perspective of Jyotish, it is also the very basic that you state. > > > Again I would like to state, contrary to your belief, most people on > > > these lists know these things and are spiritually quite elevated. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this > > duality > > > needs to > > > > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind > > Chhinnamasta > > > depicted > > > > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates > > drinking > > > wine is > > > > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of > > Venus > > > > (enjoyment). > > > > > > > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. > > To > > > say > > > > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > > > > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have > > > missed the > > > > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have > > > been many > > > > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. > > There > > > is > > > > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is > > > associated > > > > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal > > > energy. > > > > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on > > > the other > > > > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the > > > sign of > > > > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from > > the > > > cesspool > > > > like mud of life. > > > > > > Whether Chhinnamasta is " all about suppressing that " or about rising > > > above it can be discussed later, as that is secondary. But, even as > > > you dismiss the symbolism as " highly superficial " , you ARE alluding > > to > > > the symbolism when you finally say: > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] LOL...You are the first one to dismiss people > > (unknown > > > people) as holding superficial views (read your mail). I chose my > > > words carefully. Do unto others as they would do unto you. > > > > > > > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on > > > the other > > > > hand is the purest of them all. > > > > > > It is Venus who actually shows carnal pleasures and not Rahu. Rahu > > > shows materialism, but carnal pleasures ARE shown by Venus. And that > > > does not make him impure. Let us not change the basics of astrology > > > and make Rahu the karaka of sex. It is Venus. Moreover, as you > > pointed > > > out, Chhinnamasta is also called Vajra Vairochani and is said to be > > > lustrous and pure like a Vajra (diamond). Venus is the one > > associated > > > with diamond. > > > > > > Munda maalaa tantra equates Chhinnamasta with Bhargava Rama, who is > > > equated with Venus by Parasara. All the external symbolism around > > > Chhinnamasta (sex and other pleasures) matches the external > > qualities > > > associated with Venus. Her internal nature described nicely by you > > > below (yogic powers, supreme bliss etc) also matches with Venus. Why > > > then is suddenly Rahu brought into the picture? It should be Venus. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] I beg to differ. Do try not to assume things and make > > > sweeping judgements. I am quite confident of my basics in Jyotish. > > > Venus is the karaka for sex. But gets tainted with carnality by > > > Rahu’s associations. There is nothing wrong with Venus. But > > > everything wrong with Venus’s association with Rahu. Mundamala > > Tantra > > > did not equate Chhinnamasta with Parashu ram. You did. There is no > > > harm in that; as these are such nebulous territories and we must > > > explore beyond the boundaries. But there is harm in thinking, “this > > is > > > the only truth.†This precludes any discussion. > > > > > > As Dattatreya's Avadhoota Gita teaches, actions are not what bind > > us, > > > it is our ego (I-ness) identifying with (and attaching to) the > > actions > > > that binds us. When performed without any attachment whatsoever, no > > > action is " impure " . It is our sense that " I am doing " and " I am > > > enjoying " that introduces impurity. When that is completely absent, > > > one is ever pure. > > > > > > As actions provoking the basic instincts within us are so difficult > > to > > > perform without an identification, a regular sadhaka is better off > > > staying away from certain activities such as carnal pleasures. But > > it > > > is *possible* to be established in Brahman even during such > > activities > > > considered impure, as demonstrated by Dattatreya. That is the way of > > > Venus. > > > > > > The way of Saturn is to silence the internal enemies and practice > > > austerities. But the way of Venus is not to suppress so-called > > > enjoyments, but to overcome the identification even when engaging in > > > so-called enjoyments. > > > > > > After all, Venus is the teacher of demons. He is in the middle of > > the > > > demons and yet remains perfectly pure being a great yogi. This is a > > > metaphor for the fact that internally Venus is *in* one's passions > > and > > > pleasures (including carnal ones) and yet he is absolutely pure. At > > > the outer core, Venus shows all enjoyment within one, including > > carnal > > > pleasures. These things may seem dirty, like Chhinnamasta's > > > surroundings in iconography. If you go from the outer core to the > > > innermost essence, then you catch hold of true essence of Venus, > > which > > > is perfectly pure. And the glow of *that* blissful yogic essence is > > > Chhinnamasta. Once you catch hold of the true essence of Venus (or > > > Chhinnamasta), you are liberated. > > > > > > By perfecting various aspects of one's personality, i.e. by being > > one > > > with the innermost essence (not the outer core) of that aspect of > > > one's personality, one reaches the fine essence of various planets > > and > > > one can become liberated. That is the point of mahavidyas. > > > > > > As I said before, all the planets are essentially ever pure, if you > > > focus on their innermost essential nature and not the outward > > > manifestation. > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] And as I also said before I am trying to direct YOU > > > towards the innermost essence of the planets, that is the > > mahavidyas. > > > I do feel your explanation of Venus and Rahu has not touched that > > > innermost core. You need to experience the innermost essence of the > > > planet to understand what I am trying to say about Venus and > > > Chinnamasta. Incidentally I never said Venus needs to be suppressed > > as > > > I do not associate Venus with Chhinnamasta. Venus needs to bloom > > like > > > the lotus through the mud-like cess of life and cause the inner > > > awakening within us. Rather, let me rephrase this: Venus has the > > > potentiality to “awaken†us. This “awakening†is the blooming of the > > > lotus. I am trying to draw you towards the inner core. Try talking > > to > > > the many quiet members on these lists who are ardent devi > > worshippers > > > and have done long years of mahavidya sadhana. They will show > > > unfathomable depths of that innermost essence of the mahavidyas. > > > > > > * * > > > > > > > The Todala Tantra gives a different co-relation: > > > > > > The list given by Todala tantra covers more than 10 goddesses and > > more > > > than 10 gods. So it could be for something else. On the other hand, > > > the list given by Munda Maalaa Tantra gives the dasa mahavidyas and > > > dasavataras exactly and maps them. > > > > > > > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] Not just these two. Read Kinsely’s discussion this > > very > > > topic. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of > > the > > > rung. It > > > > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, > > the > > > > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the > > > Yamala > > > > texts have to say on this. > > > > > > If you can quote anything interesting from any tantra text, we can > > > discuss it. > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] Sure. You will have to wait till I return from > > Jaimini > > > 3rd year in August. > > > > > > > I am delighted that you have at last succumbed to > > > > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all > > > kinds of > > > > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. > > > > > > Actually, I have been a Mahalakshmi worshipper for more than 15 > > years > > > and not really away from Devi. The last time we met in Boston was > > 6-7 > > > years ago. A lot happened since then. Grace of a realized master can > > > work wonders, even with a fool. > > > > > > * * * > > > Your long exposition on mahavidyas in mail 2 quoted below has > > nothing > > > we have not heard before at SJC. But, the problem is that it has no > > > unfirm binding thread. You go on to say a lot of disjoint things > > about > > > a deity and suddenly one planet is tied in at the end. There is no > > > flow of logic or uniform criteria used for linking planets. > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] I specifically wrote that I was jotting down some > > > points about some of the mahavidyas. I was not trying to give any > > long > > > thesis or giving a planet by planet explanation. Nor was I giving a > > > complete exposition on the mahavidyas. That is perhaps impossible to > > > do. Sanjayji told me years ago, that we should consider ourselves > > > fortunate if we could master even one mahavidya in our lifetime. But > > > yes, I was not writing down a comprehensive detailed, connected > > > discursion on it. Definitely not. Just some scattered bullet points. > > I > > > had no intention of doing otherwise. I don’t think you would have > > > heard this in SJC. It is incorrect to say so. Because it is not from > > > SJC but from my studies of various sadhakas, tantra texts, > > discussions > > > and some sadhana that I jotted down the points. Swami Pragyanananda, > > > Acharya Advaitananda Puri, Acharya Brahmananda Giri, Mahesh Chandra > > > Pal, Elisabeth Benard, David Kinsley, Narayndutt Srimali, to name a > > > few, are some of the works. Pragyanananda’s influence is marked > > > because of my 5 generation connection with Thakur and my spiritual > > > initiation into Thakur’s lineage. Hence I am tilted towards the > > views > > > on tantra and dasa mahavidya of Thakur and his lineage. Also I don’t > > > think any SJC teachers who are seriously into mahavidya sadhana, > > have > > > spoken anything about it. I include here Ramdasji, Ram Narayan, Swee > > > Chan (at this very moment she is spending a month at her guru’s > > ashram > > > in vrindavan), Visti. I don’t think either of them has expressed > > > anything about their thoughts on the matter, and I include Visti in > > > this. He has never written on the lists about his long and arduous > > > Bagala sadhana. And I don’t think he is likely to. It is not spoken > > > not because its secret but because it is sacred. So let’s leave out > > > what SJC’s version is. As no one has spoken about it. Except > > following > > > the planetary mapping. Sanjayji too has not spoken about it in > > public > > > except to give a generalised introduction in the remedies workshop. > > > He has not spoken about the deeper stuff even with small groups of > > > students. Maybe only one to one with some of them after they have > > > completed at least a years sadhana. > > > > > > > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > > > > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; > > > the > > > > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in > > > amavsaya, that > > > > > > There are two long paragraphs on Kaali, but only the above at the > > end > > > tries to explain why Kaali should be shown by Saturn. Are you > > > suggesting that only Kaali cleanses sins and others do not? > > Secondly, > > > are other mahavidyas also worshipped on the tithis of their planets? > > > After all, Ketu does not even have a tithi and he shows one > > mahavidya. > > > Then what is the logic behind deducing the planet from the tithi in > > > one case? > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] Thakur has spoken about the importance of amavasya > > > with respect to Kali. It has a huge implication about the purusha > > > prakriti angle. It is in amavasya, in the aloneness of the darkest > > of > > > nights, that Mahakal and Mahakali unite in permanent embrace. > > Amavasya > > > is Prakriti. Not just Thakur but most tantra traditions practising > > in > > > Kali sadhana will tell you the importance of ama kalaa. It is a very > > > deep concept. > > > > > > Using one parameter to map to one planet in one case and another > > > parameter to map to another planet in another case is inconsistent. > > > > > > > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then > > > Shodashi. > > > > > > Why then doesn't Moon or Saturn (ruling Purnima) show Shodasi? > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] Amavasya is not linked to Kali because of tithi > > > rulership. It is much deeper than that. The comparison between > > > Shodasi and Kali with respect to the kalaas of the Moon are in no > > way > > > to linked to the tithi lordhips. See above. I state again, it is a > > > very deep concept in tantra. > > > > > > > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. > > > Tri- puras > > > > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is > > the > > > empress > > > > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is > > associated > > > with > > > > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. > > > She is > > > > > > Well, Mercury is NOT the most soumya of planets. In some charts, he > > > can even be kroora. He simply behaves like his company. > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] True. But when not associated, it is said to be one > > of > > > the most saumya. > > > > > > In any case, again there is no logic behind the conclusion. Why is > > > " prithvi tattva " Mercury associated with her? What about the tattvas > > > of planets in other cases? Is " prithvi tattva " the only " very much > > > saguna " thing? Is jala tattva or vaayu tattva nirguna? > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] No that is not what I meant. Of course there is some > > > tattva association with the others as well. These are supplementary > > > attributes. > > > > > > > > > > It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the knots of > > > > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey > > > towards > > > > Moksha. > > > > > > Again, the above conclusion comes after a really long exposition and > > > the conclusion has nothing to do with the exposition. Do you mean to > > > say that other mahavidyas cannot cut the knots of Rahu? > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] Again no, thats not what I meant. I just jotted down > > a > > > few point for to give some pointers. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > The Planet-Mahavidya co-relation is > > > > not SJC's version. It is used by many pandits and priests. > > > > > > Yes, I am aware that it is not an SJC invention. But it does not > > seem > > > to be backed by any scriptures and only backed by a relatively > > modern > > > astrology text. Several people may have been influenced by > > > Bhattacharya's text. > > > > > > Sarbani, you follow Sri Achyutananda. Sri Achyutananda said, > > according > > > to a paper by Sanjay ji a decade ago, that a kali yuga sub-cycle > > > within the current kali yuga ends around 2000 AD and a satya yuga > > > sub-cycle starts. Isn't it possible that the kali yuga sub-cycle > > > corrupted some knowledge and some of it will be cleaned up in the > > > current sub-cycle? > > > > > > [sarbani Rath] Narasimha, these planetary associations are followed > > > universally across India by most temples and priests. There is a > > > certain common parameter here. And then vastly, the lineages and > > > sub-sects differ as Arpad nicely summarized. So I don’t think it is > > > the influence of Bhattacharya’s text. It is a tradition commonly > > held > > > in practise. Now, we can say, are there/were there other linkages > > that > > > are lost or forgotten? Maybe they can throw some light? The > > interested > > > seeker might search. And this will add to our understanding. The > > > mahavidyas are vast and can never be corrupted. Try and read and > > speak > > > to the sadhakas of these varied traditions of mahavidya worship, and > > > you will be astonished at the depth of the knowledge they hold > > within > > > their being. Knowledge is often hidden, and scatterd among different > > > kinds of texts, especially those related to mahavidyas and tantric > > > traditions. There is a huge oral tradition and there is the > > experience > > > of sadhana, which is the true fount of information. It is said that > > > only through sadhana will the mahavidyas reveal themselves to you; > > if > > > they so have mercy on you. And I think it is to this that Shyam > > > Srivastav was gently point to. > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > Dear Vishnu, > > > > > > > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 > > > authentic > > > > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? > > > > > > I cannot. However, I have given a quote from an authentic tantra > > > regarding the linking of dasavataras with dasa mahavidyas and we are > > > all aware of Parasara's quote equating planets with dasavataras. The > > > best I can suggest is combining the two. > > > > > > Planets are secondary here. The key is to understand the tattva > > > (essence) of mahavidyas. Understand what kind of supreme liberating > > > knowledge each mahavidya represents. Though using the correct > > planets > > > helps you understand the tattva better, we need NOT think in terms > > of > > > planets. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------------------- > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > > > Spirituality: > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > Mail 1 being replied to: > > > > > > > Dear Narsimha, > > > > > > > > (Narasimha) Friends, there may be an outcry to my writings from > > > astrologers > > > > used to a different planet-mahavidya map (which is NOT sanctioned > > by > > > any > > > > scripture and yet popular today in some circles). I may not be > > able > > > to > > > > respond to all the mails. > > > > > > > > An outcry??? Regarding what?? No, no you have got the wrong end of > > > the stick > > > > here. The planet-mahavidya mapping is used by many priests and > > > pundits who > > > > are in no way associated with SJC. They even have them up in their > > > websites. > > > > So please do not start an agenda of saying this is " SJC " 's > > > > version/unsanctioned etc. Let us instead have an intellectual > > > theological > > > > debate, which is far more interesting. YOU can say that though in > > > practice > > > > most priests and books follow a certain norm of planet-mahavidya > > > > co-relation, but on reflection a different order appeals to you > > and > > > you are > > > > sharing that with us. > > > > > > > > Mundamala Tantra is just one of the tantras, and not the top of > > the > > > rung. It > > > > would be interesting to see what the Mahanirvan, the Gyanarnava, > > the > > > > Pranatoshini, the Mahanil, the Kularnava tantras and specially the > > > Yamala > > > > texts have to say on this. I am delighted that you have at last > > > succumbed to > > > > Devi worship. I remember 2-3 years back in Boston you rejected all > > > kinds of > > > > Devi worship including the Sri Sri Chandi. > > > > > > > > Mahavidya is THE supreme knowledge. When you write: > > > > > > > > (Narasimha) From the perspective of Venus (enjoyment), this > > duality > > > needs to > > > > be enjoyed and not run away from. The symbolism behind > > Chhinnamasta > > > depicted > > > > accompanied by a naked couple in copulation and associates > > drinking > > > wine is > > > > that nothing is impure and all is Brahman. That is the take of > > Venus > > > > (enjoyment). > > > > > > > > Correctly you have pointed out that we should not be superficial. > > To > > > say > > > > that the symbolism behind the copulating couple in Chhinnamasta's > > > > iconography is about enjoyment is highly superficial. You have > > > missed the > > > > boat here. Chhinnamasta is all about suppressing that. There have > > > been many > > > > works by renowned scholars in both east and the west on this. > > There > > > is > > > > surely nothing wrong with Venus. The problem occurs when Rahu is > > > associated > > > > Venus. That's when we talk of re-directing that undesirable carnal > > > energy. > > > > Chhinnamasta represents that unleashed carnality of Rahu. Venus on > > > the other > > > > hand is the purest of them all. After all he gets exalted in the > > > sign of > > > > maharishis. Venus has the capacity to bloom like the lotus from > > the > > > cesspool > > > > like mud of life. At a deeper level, this blooming of the lotus is > > > really > > > > the blooming of our soul, the awakening. That is why the > > > Sharadatilaka > > > > tantra advises us to worship Kamalatmika in water as the sun > > rises. > > > In her > > > > mantra she is addressed as Jagatprasutyai ...the one who gives > > birth > > > h to > > > > this world. I think you need to work a little more on this, and I > > am > > > sure > > > > Mother will show the way. There are fantastic works done on the > > > mahavidyas > > > > by many exponents from the different gurukuls of India, though of > > > course no > > > > one writes the really deeper level experiences which can only stem > > > from > > > > sadhana. > > > > > > > > Incidentally, there are many quiet members in these lists who are > > > extremely > > > > spiritual and any of whom have years of experience in devi > > worship. > > > I appeal > > > > to them to share their experiences with us. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > Sarbani Rath > > > > > > Mail 2 being replied to: > > > > > > sohamsa , " Sarbani Rath " <sarbani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > > > > > > > The Avatar-Mahavidya co-relation is for a different purpose. The > > > Todala > > > > Tantra gives a different co-relation: > > > > > > > > Nîla Târâ †" Matsya > > > > Bagalâmukhî †" Kûrma > > > > Dhumâvatî - Varâha > > > > Chinnamastâ †" Narasimha > > > > Bhuvaneshvarî - Vâmana > > > > Tripurasundarî (Shodasî) †" Parashurâma > > > > Mâtangî †" Râma > > > > Bhairavî †" Balabhadra > > > > Mahâkâlî †" Krishna > > > > Kamalâ †" Buddha > > > > Durgâ †" Kalki > > > > > > > > They may be other co-relations as well. The Planet-Mahavidya > > > co-relation is > > > > not SJC’s version. It is used by many pandits and priests. Some of > > > them have > > > > it in their web sites, and they are not linked with SJC in any > > way. > > > I don’t > > > > think this is the issue here. The issue is to understand the > > > different > > > > schemes of relations between the Avatars and the Mahavidyas, for > > > which one > > > > needs to delve deep into the Mahavidyas and understand these > > various > > > > schemes. I just wanted to share a few points about some of the > > > Mahavidyas > > > > for deeper reflection. > > > > > > > > Sadashiva/Mahakal lying beneath Kali is the nirguna, Purusha from > > > whom the > > > > gunatmika Prakriti, in the form of Kali, has sprung. Kali’s wild > > > dance is > > > > the lila of srishti. Kali’s foot, touching Sadashiva, signifies > > the > > > > connection between Purusha and Prakriti; that it is the same > > Brahma > > > who can > > > > be at once nirguna (Purusha/Sadashiva) and saguna (Prakriti/Kali). > > > The > > > > imagery is the personification of Shivashaktiaikya or > > > Prakritipurushaaikya. > > > > The Avatar-Mahavidya connection depicts this aspect. > > Narayanchandra > > > also > > > > adheres to this belief. Kali holds the power to severe in one > > > stroke, with > > > > her khagda, the bondage of the atma with the body and mind. Thakur > > > speaks of > > > > his visit to Varanasi, where at Manikarnika, he saw clearly Kali > > > moving from > > > > corpse to corpse, detatching the soul. Although Kali is the > > > gunatmika form > > > > of the Brahma, in the spectrum of the forms of the Divine > > Feminine, > > > she is > > > > nirguna. She burns your sins by ‘eating’ the fruits of all your > > > karmas, > > > > thereby making you ready for that bandhna mukti. A special puja of > > > hers is > > > > the Phalaharini Kali Puja, performed without fail by Thakur each > > > year (and > > > > continues in the RKM Maths and Missions to this day); a very > > > auspicious Kali > > > > Puja, where she ‘eats’ all your karma phalas. The study of her > > > imagery is > > > > vast; if you go into the details about her skull garland, which > > > represents > > > > the varnas- mundamala is actually varnamala-; why her teeth is > > > pressing her > > > > protruding tongue and so on. Saturn is related to sins, longevity, > > > > re-birth, the lord of the tithi amavasya, when she is worshipped; > > > the > > > > darkest of nights for cleansing the darkest of sins. It is in > > > amavsaya, that > > > > Mahakal and Mahakali are united in a permanent embrace; in the > > > aloneness of > > > > the deepest of dark nights. In tantra, amaa-kalaa is known as > > > Prakriti. A > > > > Moon bereft of any kalaas. (The other divine form who rermoves > > your > > > sins > > > > instantly is Krishna). > > > > > > > > To reach Kali you must cross the bhava sagar; the ocean of karmas, > > > the ocean > > > > of sansar filled with the waves of our illusory attachments. Tara > > > helps us > > > > to cross over this sorrowful ocean, so that we can reach Kali. > > Hence > > > Tarini > > > > †" she who helps us cross the bhava sagar. She is the shakti of > > > Brihaspati > > > > and if you read the Tararahasyam you will see that she is > > worshipped > > > with > > > > the vagbhava bija aim. (Although her mula bija is the pranava). > > She > > > has > > > > emerged from the bija Hum, by which the evils of the sansar are > > > suppressed. > > > > Without her strength you cannot cross that ocean. Her various > > forms > > > †" > > > > Ugratara, Ekajata, Nila Sarasvati †" explains further, details of > > the > > > layers > > > > of this shakti. One of Nila Sarasvati’s mantra is Aim Aim Vada > > Vada > > > > Vagvidini Svaha; associations of Tara with the Guru, with > > knowledge. > > > She > > > > bestows the knowledge of crossing the ocean. > > > > > > > > The Moon attains its full 16 kalas on purnima; the devi is then > > > Shodashi. > > > > Resplendent, majestic and manifest. The queen of the three puras. > > > Tri- puras > > > > also represent the three aspects of the Kundalini shakti. She is > > the > > > empress > > > > of kundalini. Very much saguna. Prithvi tattva Mercury is > > associated > > > with > > > > her. Sri shakti; hence linked with the most saumya of the planets. > > > She is > > > > Mantratmika. Because Mercury is related to learning; > > Tripurasundari > > > is > > > > worshipped in all guru-shishya paramparas. Incidentally she is > > > worshipped on > > > > Thurdays. Thakur performed the shodasa upachar puja to ma as > > > Shodasi. > > > > Although Ma has said, “Know that I am Bagalaâ€. (In the chart > > > provided in her > > > > biography by Swami Gambhirananda, she is Karka lagna with lagna > > lord > > > and AK > > > > Moon conjoined Mars). > > > > > > > > Devi Chhinnnamasta is the thunderbolt, the streak of lightening, > > > which is > > > > the shakti of Virocana, the Supreme Self, the luminosity of the > > > Primordial > > > > Prakasa. That is why she is Vajravairocani, the glow of the > > > Paramatma which > > > > flashes like a lightening and shatters the skies. She is yellow > > and > > > shines > > > > like a million suns, the glory of which destroys all desires and > > > makes her a > > > > Mahayogini, the supreme exponent of yogic powers and like Vajra, > > > pure and > > > > blazing. She epitomizes self-control by conquering sexual and > > > selfish > > > > desires and transforming that energy into yogic energy. Hence she > > is > > > > Yogamaya, Yogamargapradayini, the acme of yogic force. The blood > > > rushing > > > > from below her feet to her head depicts this transformation of > > > kunadalini > > > > energy from its somnabulence to its blossoming through the dint of > > > yoga and > > > > the act of self control. Be the energy below the control of sexual > > > desire of > > > > Rati and Kama, or the transformation of the eternal yearning for > > > Shiva under > > > > her feet, both are channelized into a blazing, yogic might, which > > > makes her > > > > like the Vajra, untainted and pure. This primal energy rushes up > > her > > > body to > > > > meet the thousand petalled lotus in her head, culminating in the > > > bliss of > > > > the union with Parama Shiva. Hence she is the epitome of spiritual > > > power > > > > which every sadhaka seeks to acquire. The energy is also > > channelized > > > into > > > > love as the blood nourishes her devotees on her either side, who > > > were hungry > > > > for nourishment. So she is the food (bhojanam), the nourisher > > > (bhokta) and > > > > the eater (bhojyam) as she also drinks her own blood while feeding > > > her > > > > devotees. These two devotees are Rajas and Tamas, who could not > > > escape the > > > > bind of duality, and are therefore fed by the secondary channels > > or > > > nadis, > > > > Ira and Pingala. Thus they are also known by these names. The Devi > > > as the > > > > Sushumna, depicts Satva guna and she is the one who is able to cut > > > the binds > > > > of the chakras and clear the passage for the blood to rush though > > > and unite > > > > with Shiva in the sahasrara and then gush down to drench the > > sadhaka > > > in the > > > > bliss of the union. As the destroyer of all bonds, and the means > > of > > > > achieving liberation through supreme yogic powers, Chhinnamasta is > > > the > > > > embodiment of Moksha. > > > > > > > > Rahu, the greatest of bonders, the cause of re-birth, grips the > > > sadhaka in > > > > its vicious coils. From its basest form of extreme greed and > > carnal > > > desires, > > > > through the treachery and trickery of its twisted mind, it seeks > > to > > > engulf > > > > all that comes before his path. Even when a person is able to > > avoid > > > such > > > > engulfment, it ensures that his path towards the union with Parama > > > Shiva is > > > > strewn with hurdles and makes it difficult for the sadhaka to > > prise > > > himself > > > > from his grasp. It is Chhinnamasta who has the power to cut the > > > knots of > > > > Rahu and release the sadhaka from his bonds to enable his journey > > > towards > > > > Moksha. Chhinnamasta therefore is the link, which allows one to > > > travel the > > > > trajectory from Rahu (bondage) to Ketu (liberation), wherein all > > > desires are > > > > dissolved. Having cut the bonds, Devi herself absorbs the poison > > and > > > > transforms herself to Dhoomavati, the widow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > Sarbani Rath > > > > > > Mail 3 being replied to: > > > > > > > Dear Narasimha, Visti, Sarbani et al, > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Could all of you please tone down the rhetoric so that we can > > > discuss the > > > > issue at hand. I have a few basic questions and hope atleast one > > > among you > > > > can answer it/them! > > > > > > > > 1) Can any of you provide a direct quote from any of the 64 > > > authentic > > > > tantras that relates maha vidyas to planets? > > > > > > > > 2) Who do tantras stop after mapping/relating maha vidyas to dasa > > > avataras? > > > > > > > > 3) Why hasn't Parasara related grahas to maha vidyas, where as he > > > found it > > > > so convenient to relate them to dasa avataras? > > > > > > > > warm regards, > > > > Vishnu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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