Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 Namaste Shyamasundara Prabhu, It is very clear that you are talking about the " limitations " of a " system " that you do not understand well. I will make a couple of quick comments before I sleep for today. Jaimini did not say that all the conclusions must be drawn from rasi chart. In fact, he added a couple of divisional charts to the ones taught by Parasara. > On reading your statement above it struck me that certain prominent > features > of the sub-set of the Parasara system known as the Jaimini system are > inherently limited in their use. They are not at all applicable to chart > rectification and therefore to use them in chart rectification is > meaningless. Here I am especially speaking about Bhava Arudhas and Varnada > Lagna and to a lesser degree Naisargika and Chara Karakas as well as > special > Lagnas like Ghatika, Hora, Bhava etc. These are secondary methods useful in > aiding chart analysis and prediction but incapable of being used in chart > rectification. Let us for the time being forget about Srila Prabhupada's > chart and just dwell on the theoretical basis of what we are dealing with > here. The suitability of using Bhava Arudha for chart rectification. > > 1. We must first remember that Bhava Arudhas are not degree based but Rasi > based like Astakavarga. However, there is nothing in the classics to say that bhava arudhas (and ashtakavarga) should not be found for divisional charts. In fact, if Parasara and Jaimini teach that one's religious activities are seen in D-20 and later teach that mantra pada (arudha pada of 5th house) shows the mantras practiced by one, they are in all likelihood speaking about mantra pada in D-20. We at SJVC use bhava arudhas in all varga chakras. If you do not have enough time to read the relevant archives of vedic astrology list, you should atleast read an extract from my book on bhava arudhas at http://www.geocities.com/pvr108/bookex1.htm You will understand the use of bhava arudhas better if you read this. Bhava arudha chakra of rasi chart may stay the same if the birthtime changes a little, but bhava arudhas in divisional charts will change. Arudha means " risen one " . Arudhas are the ones that " rise " in the material world. If we talk about one's happiness from vehicle or knowledge or scholarship, they cannot be seen in the physical world. There are certain material things that arise from them and THOSE risen things can be seen in the material world. For example, one's car, one's school, one's awards, one's degrees etc are things that can be seen in the material world. Based on these (that can be seen in the material world), we judge one's happiness from vehicles, knowledge, scholarship etc (that can NOT be seen in the material world). Arudhas deal with these things. They apply to all the divisional charts. > 2. It has been assumed by you and others that because 2 different lagnas > have different configurations of Bhava Arudhas then this will be a useful > tool in chart rectification to determine which would be the appropriate > Lagna for a person for whom sufficient data was known. That if one set of > Bhava Arudhas better explained (or helped in some way) then that Lagna > should be accepted. This is misleading and not correct. Rather than > changing > Lagnas it would be sufficient, in many cases, to simply change the degree > in > the rising sign thus changing some significant patterns in the > Shodasavargas. Thus the difference will be accounted for by Shodasavargas And, that would change the bhava arudhas in the relevant vargas. > which will be unique for every fraction of a degree in a Lagna. Researchers > in Nadi literature are of the opinion that the Nadis rely heavily on the > patterns of Shodasa Vargas. I have had several readings from the Nadis-Suka > Nadi, Kala Candra Nadi and Bhrigu Samhita. I taped the readings. They > relied > on standard Parasara methods like Shodasa vargas not on the subset called > Jaimini system. While on the topic of Nadis, the only Dasa system used by > these Rishis was Vimshottari. I know that you support the preeminent > position of Vimshottari Mahadasha but some others do not. > > 3. While every fraction of a degree in any one Lagna will give different > patterns of Shodasavargas the pattern of the Bhava Arudhas will not change > for the *whole* Lagna. Again, bhava arudhas are to be found in each varga. > 4. It seems to be assumed, at some level, that everyone born on the same > day > with the same lagna will have the same life. Hence the need to change the > Lagna in order to describe a different life. > > 5. But persons born on the same day with same lagna and same set of Bhava > Arudhas (and Varnada Lagna) will not have the same life because they will > have a different pattern of Shodasavargas. > > 6. Shodasavarga is like a finger print and is unique for each individual > person, especially if we take Nadi Amsas, but Bhava Arudha like Astakavarga > are generic for all persons born on the same day with the same Lagna. Again.... > 7. Since some Jaimini methods like Bhava Arudha are generic they are not at First, don't call them " Jaimini methods " . Graha and bhava arudhas were taught by Parasara maharshi in great detail. Please read BPHS. Arudhas are a part of Parasara's teachings. Second, spend more time and try to understand something, before commenting on it (let alone dismissing it). > all appropriate for use in chart rectification hence no meaning can be > attached to chart rectification arguments based on Bhava Arudha. This does > not mean that generic methods like Astakavarga and Bhava Arudha have no > utility, they do, but not in the context that you have been trying to use > them in. > > Let me now demonstrate my point with some real life examples (which is very > different from the " 20/20 vision " world of postmortem astrology). Below > are > the birth data of two sets of twins. The birth time was very accurately > recorded. The Lagnas differ in one case by less than a degree. You will > quickly see that the Astakavarga plus the various Jaimini methods of Bhava > Arudhas, Chara karakas Varnada Lagna etc are identical for each set of > twins. Special Lagnas like Hora, Bhava, and Ghatika will vary from each > exactly as much as the Janma Lagnas do. The same goes for Prana Pada. > Though > the Bhava Arudhas etc are identical when looking at each set of twins they > did not have the same lives rather they had some very remarkable > differences. > > Sanjay Prabhu please tell me based on Jaimini system (padas etc) what is > the > difference in the lives of these two men? > > Male 1: > July 11, 1953 @ 11:25 AM, CST, Houston, TX, 98W22, 29N46 > > Male 2: > July 11, 1953 @ 11:28 AM, CST, Houston, TX, 98W22, 29N46 > > Sanjay Prabhu please tell me based on Jaimini system (padas etc) what is > the > difference in the lives of these two women? > > Woman 1: > July 20, 1967, @ 11:45 AM, New Delhi, 77E12, 28N36 > > Woman 2: > July 20, 1967, @ 11:55 AM, New Delhi, 77E12, 28N36 > > Sanjay Prabhu can you can explain to me the non-trivial differences in the > lives of these people using Jaimini system as you were doing above in the > case of Srila Prabhupada? I beg to remain... We had a twins puzzle on vedic astrology list today, in which somebody posted the charts of twins with the same rasi and navamsa and asked us to identify which one is autistic. I tried it. I had my share of twins puzzles for today. I may try yours later. BTW, I haven't received any feedback from you on the chart you gave earlier. In any case, I have no trouble at all when somebody points out the importance of divisional charts. I myself am thoroughly convinced about the importance of vargas. However, the problem is that you have a wrong idea of Jaimini's teachings. If you disagree with Gauranga's anlysis, please do so. But don't start criticizing " Jaimini system " and advanced techniques that are anintegral part of the teachings of Parasara and Jaimini. > Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada > > Shyamasundara Dasa > > PS can someone forward these to the . I forwarded this afternoon. Please forward my mail to your list(s). > Shyamasundara Dasa, Jyotish Sastri-Vedic Astrologer May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2000 Report Share Posted December 28, 2000 Dear Shyamasundara prabhu, PAMHO, AGTSP. > Limitations of Jaimini System > > Dear Sanjay, > > Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > Bhakta-vigna-vinasha Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya. > > You wrote: > > > Jaya Jagannath > > Dear Gauranga, > > Simply marvellous. I am very very proud of your work. You have > > understood the essence > > behind chart correction. It must fir siblings, children, spouse..Upapada > > etc are also vey > > vital. Make the Upapada for Capricorn and Sagittarius and you will see the > > great > > difference there. > > > > With Sagittarius Upapada is in Aquarius, having Atmakarak Rahu in it. > > Srila Prabhupada > > wanted two wives, and he took Radharani on the advice of his father. Then > > he wanted the > > other one also, but his father told him to bear with this one. No problem > > if he is not so > > atthached, he will be ale to renounce her later easier. So Aquarius has > > dual lordship, > > which may indicate the two wives. Rahu is in there, so that's the actual > > wife, but Saturn > > becomes the overlord, indicating that he wanted the other one. Saturn > > aspects Aquarius, so > > he knew her, nut he is in the badhak sthan from Aquarius, so he could not > > take her as a > > wife. Saturn is aspected by Pitrikarak Mars (both disposited by Badhakesh > > Venus), so the > > father obstructed him marrying her. > > > > etc. etc. > > On reading your statement above it struck me that certain prominent features > of the sub-set of the Parasara system known as the Jaimini system are > inherently limited in their use. They are not at all applicable to chart > rectification and therefore to use them in chart rectification is > meaningless. Here I am especially speaking about Bhava Arudhas and Varnada > Lagna and to a lesser degree Naisargika and Chara Karakas as well as special > Lagnas like Ghatika, Hora, Bhava etc. These are secondary methods useful in > aiding chart analysis and prediction but incapable of being used in chart > rectification. Let us for the time being forget about Srila Prabhupada's > chart and just dwell on the theoretical basis of what we are dealing with > here. The suitability of using Bhava Arudha for chart rectification. I wonder why you brand the above listed methods as Jaimini system? Are they not elaborated upon by Maharishi Parashara? If you think that they are not, then I wonder which edition of BPHS are you studying? Whoever claims that he have understood and mastered the teachingso of Parashara should make use of all the above tools, and also the multiple Dasa systems ALSO taught by Parasara. I do not know why this tendency of excluding the main part of Parasara's teachings and labelling them as Jaimini system has evolved. If you carefully study BPHS and then go on to UPSJ, you will see that the two systems anre not separate but one, Jaimini just refines a few parts given by Parasara. I wonder what would you call a system of Jyotish not using all the above features thaught by Maharishi Parasara, but using only Rasi, Navamsa and Vimsottari as most Jyotish practitioners nowadays do. You can call it anything but not Prasari Jyotish. That's just a fragment of the great ocean of Parsara's teachings. And only a Jyotish Guru coming ina bona fide Parampara of Jyotish can reveal its truths to you. Otherwise you are left with the skeleton of Jyotish and fighting against anybody who is trying to make use of what is given by Parasara. > 1. We must first remember that Bhava Arudhas are not degree based but Rasi > based like Astakavarga. I have made the above analysis on the request of Sanjayji because of the following reasons: 1. The rectification to be done was within a time frame of one houre before and after 4 pm for Srila Prabhupada's chart, which accomodates both lagnas. Hence, first we should decide which one is more practically useful in Rasi, and the go on to the rest of the divisional charts. 2. From the above it is evident that Upapada can in a similar way be taken into consideration in D-9 (Navamsa) chart. But within a time frame of two hours, the Navamsha lagna can fall into all the 12 signs, hence producing a great variety of possible Upapadas in D-9. > 2. It has been assumed by you and others that because 2 different lagnas > have different configurations of Bhava Arudhas then this will be a useful > tool in chart rectification to determine which would be the appropriate > Lagna for a person for whom sufficient data was known. That if one set of > Bhava Arudhas better explained (or helped in some way) then that Lagna > should be accepted. This is misleading and not correct. Rather than changing > Lagnas it would be sufficient, in many cases, to simply change the degree in > the rising sign thus changing some significant patterns in the > Shodasavargas. Thus the difference will be accounted for by Shodasavargas > which will be unique for every fraction of a degree in a Lagna. Researchers This is correct, but if we are unsure where the Lgan falls in D-1, then we should rectify there first, and when we have narrowed down the time frame, we can go on rectifying by D-2, D-3, D-4, D-5, D-6, D-7, D-8, D-9 etc. ultimately coming down to a correct D-60 and even D-150 if you like and have enough info about the relevant Naidamshas. But Arudhas will have their own role in all the divisional charts, as well as the special lagnas etc. Wtihin the given time frame the Ghati and Hora Lagnas will also cover several signs in Rasi, so we should determine which one is the most likely. By the way I have presented rectification based on siblings and children involving D-3 and D-7. You did not react anythign to that, nor any other proponents of Cpricorn Lagna. Maybe you consider me unfit for discussions, but the astrological facts are presented, so I would like to see a similar description of the above biographic data with any birth time in Capricorn Lagna which you consider to be suitable. I'm not agains discussion and the finalization of birth time based on large number of biographical events. I have not done a full research, and am not finally convinced of 15.24, but the comparison of a few data so far was more suggestive of this timing. Instead of answering the concrete astrological explanations of certain life events made by me, you tried to discredit the whole array of methods, labelling them as " Jaimini system " , which was not true. If you are not prepared to get into such depths of technincalities regarding Srila Prabhupada's chart, then please admit your lack of experience in using these methods and try to do some additional learning. Your misquotation abouth the death circumstances of Srila Prabhupada also proved that you are not familiar with the methods quoted by you. But if you are unable to prove your version using the same methods, or, in fact, any other methods, then why claim that it's the final? I have read your makara.doc and there was absoultely no mention of any divisional charts. Later on I will try to find time to comment in detail on the arguments listed there. A birth time should obviously reflect the events happening in a native's life, and in rectification, we take the most likely time that confirns the events the most. Just for the sake of proving the vailidity of a certain birth time, it will not do any good if you stretch the rules and disregard obvious contradictions just by discrediting the methods used to show them, especially if they come from the same source that you claim to have mastered: the teachings of Maharishi Parasara. I will definitely try to find more time later on to discuss Srila Prabhupada's chart in more detail, as it's very educative. But meanwhile I'm interested to receive answers from you to those emails that I have sent both to your personal email address (they have come back as you banned my address from receiving them) and to your list as well. > in Nadi literature are of the opinion that the Nadis rely heavily on the > patterns of Shodasa Vargas. I have had several readings from the Nadis-Suka > Nadi, Kala Candra Nadi and Bhrigu Samhita. I taped the readings. They relied > on standard Parasara methods like Shodasa vargas not on the subset called > Jaimini system. While on the topic of Nadis, the only Dasa system used by > these Rishis was Vimshottari. I know that you support the preeminent > position of Vimshottari Mahadasha but some others do not. Well, to find a true knower of Bhrigu Jyotish today is almost as difficult as to find a true knower of Parashari Jyotish, as your example proves. It seems that your respected Jyotish Gurus have not enlightened you about the depths of Prashara's teachings, otherwise you were not stating the things found in this letter. And what is the proof that Maharshi Bhrigu was not using multiple Dasas, special ascendats, Karakas, etc. in his teachings? Maybe it's simplified today, as most people do with Parashara's teachings, but who knows what was the orignial method? Is there any one coming in the direct line of Bhrigu and claiming to have the whole body of his teachings? > 3. While every fraction of a degree in any one Lagna will give different > patterns of Shodasavargas the pattern of the Bhava Arudhas will not change > for the *whole* Lagna. Tha Arudhas can be calculated for any divisional chart and usually will differ from D-1. Similarly you may find the Amsas ocuppied by the special ascendants, Varnadas etc knowing their degrees in Rasi. > 4. It seems to be assumed, at some level, that everyone born on the same day > with the same lagna will have the same life. Hence the need to change the > Lagna in order to describe a different life. No, it is not. Divisional charts were considered in my attemnt at seeing Srila Prabhupada's siblings and children, however, you were not making any mention of them in Makara.doc. Hence, the above argument in actuality defeats your attempt, not mine. > 5. But persons born on the same day with same lagna and same set of Bhava > Arudhas (and Varnada Lagna) will not have the same life because they will > have a different pattern of Shodasavargas. Correct. And also their special lagnas, sets of Arudhas in D-charts and Varnadas in D-charts will be completely different. However, coming to the Dasa systems, the Vumsottari dasa of two persons born in 2 hours difference, will be more or less the same, on the other hand, the Narayan Dasas can be constructed for all of the D-charts separately, so you will be able to time events individually for both of them. > 6. Shodasavarga is like a finger print and is unique for each individual > person, especially if we take Nadi Amsas, but Bhava Arudha like Astakavarga > are generic for all persons born on the same day with the same Lagna. So have you attempted to rectify Srila Prabhupada's chart upto D-60? If yes, then please let us see your expertise in reading the D-charts! > 7. Since some Jaimini methods like Bhava Arudha are generic they are not at > all appropriate for use in chart rectification hence no meaning can be > attached to chart rectification arguments based on Bhava Arudha. This does > not mean that generic methods like Astakavarga and Bhava Arudha have no > utility, they do, but not in the context that you have been trying to use > them in. They have meaning, even for D-1, when there is a possibility of the Lagna falling into two different signs. > Let me now demonstrate my point with some real life examples (which is very > different from the " 20/20 vision " world of postmortem astrology). Below are > the birth data of two sets of twins. The birth time was very accurately > recorded. The Lagnas differ in one case by less than a degree. You will > quickly see that the Astakavarga plus the various Jaimini methods of Bhava > Arudhas, Chara karakas Varnada Lagna etc are identical for each set of > twins. Special Lagnas like Hora, Bhava, and Ghatika will vary from each > exactly as much as the Janma Lagnas do. The same goes for Prana Pada. Though > the Bhava Arudhas etc are identical when looking at each set of twins they > did not have the same lives rather they had some very remarkable > differences. You see: as yourself has pointed out, the special lagnas can be used even in D-1 for rectification, as they change faster that the Janma Lagna. So why have you still clubbed all of the under the heading of " Jaimini system " and dismissed altogether? > Sanjay Prabhu please tell me based on Jaimini system (padas etc) what is the > difference in the lives of these two men? > > Male 1: > July 11, 1953 @ 11:25 AM, CST, Houston, TX, 98W22, 29N46 > > Male 2: > July 11, 1953 @ 11:28 AM, CST, Houston, TX, 98W22, 29N46 > > > Sanjay Prabhu please tell me based on Jaimini system (padas etc) what is the > difference in the lives of these two women? > > Woman 1: > July 20, 1967, @ 11:45 AM, New Delhi, 77E12, 28N36 > > Woman 2: > July 20, 1967, @ 11:55 AM, New Delhi, 77E12, 28N36 > > > Sanjay Prabhu can you can explain to me the non-trivial differences in the > lives of these people using Jaimini system as you were doing above in the > case of Srila Prabhupada? I beg to remain... > The explanation was done not by Sanjayji, but by me. I do not have time to go into the above chart explanations, and even if I were, of course I would use D-charts. So I'm still waiting for your reaction on my readings from Srila Prabhupada's chart or the counterproofs for those life events with your chosen birth time. Was the chart sent to Narasimha for demonstrating multiple Dasas yours? It befitted you very much. Were his readings correct? We are all eagerly waiting your confirmation pro or contra. Your insignificant servant, Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer <gauranga Phone:+36-309-140-839 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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