Guest guest Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna ||Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas.One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes,Sourav=========================================================================================sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva’s Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva’s philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?" "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna ||Dear Rafal, Namaskar. You are most welcome to continue in your belief system and proceed in your path. I didnt want to create any differences, for the purpose of imposing my view. As for my quoted statements, let me say that the three systems of philosophy - dvaita, vishintadvaita and advaita are embedded in the equation I stated. It is how I think myself and my Ishta. Each parampara (sampradaya) tries to focus on one philosophy as proceed; that is legitimate as that way it gets better focus and makes more sense within the sampradaya activities.Secondly, I tend to disagree (sorry) with the view that jyotish guru deals with D-24 only and not D-20. Both these belong to mental plane and affect each other. What we learn (mundane or higher knowledge)affects our understanding and hence our spiritual views on which is based our devotion. Although Sanjay-ji (and may be other SJC gurus as well) time and again proclaims " I am only siksha guru and not diksha guru", which in literal sense is perhaps correct, yet he cannot really deny that he does not affect his students spiritual life. The moment you prescribe a mantra or a fast or a worship of a particular deity - you are essentially giving spiritual guidence in small doses. There cannot be any denial to that. Hence D-24 and D-20 are very intimately relation. Whether it is good or not, I am not arguing nor am I supposed to. Jnanayoga combines them also, if you prefer to think in that way. Maharsi starts BPHS with the kind of exalted character (profuse with spiritual attributes) that jyotisha aspirant should have in order to make him eligible for this knowledge. Hope my words be taken in light of suggestion only.Best Wishes,Sourav=====================================================sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > Namaskar,> > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya:> > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?"> > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > > > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Rafal,> > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas.> > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > Best Wishes,> > Sourav> > =========================================================================================> > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> >> > Dear Sourav,> > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > - > > Sourav Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > - Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > >> > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > > native or not. > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > sohamsa > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > Best wishes,> > > Nitin,> > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > sohamsa > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > >--> > > > > > >> > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > >> > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > >> > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > >> > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > >> > > >Or> > > >> > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > >> > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > >> > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > >> > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > > >> > > >Best wishes,> > > >> > > >Sourav> > > >> > > >===========================================================================> > > =================> > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > >>> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > >> > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > >> > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > > be considered speculative.> > > >> > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > > divinity or spirituality. > > > >> > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > >> > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > >> > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > bodies. > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > >> > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > >> > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > >> > > > >> Best wishes, > > > >> Nitin.> > > >> > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --> > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > >> sohamsa > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > >> > > > >> >--> > > >> > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > >> >> > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > >> >> > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > >> >> > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > > can> > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > > worship> > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > > Note> > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > >> >> > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > > of> > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > > 12th> > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > > follows> > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > > Ak> > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >Warm Regards> > > >> >Sanjay P> > > >> >> > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Dear Sourav, Namaskar. Thank You for Your mail. What You wrote in Your second paragraph - I agree with You. My point was that D-24 Guru has right to guide fully in D-24 matters and can advice or help in D-20 matters while D-20 Guru has right to guide fully in D-20 matters. " Guide fully " in this context means that advices are expected to be follow strictly by the sisya. I am very thankful to that Parampara of Jyotish that it deal so much with spirituality, that was one of my important point when I was choosing Jyotish Parampara. I couldnt reject spiritual side of Jyotish and am very thankful for this opportunity to my Guruji Visti Larsen , Sanjay Rath Ji and all Jyotisha's in SJC. Hope I will be understood in proper mood. Regards Rafal Gendarz sohamsa , " Sourav Chowdhury " <souravc108> wrote: > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > Dear Rafal, > > Namaskar. You are most welcome to continue in your belief system and proceed in your path. I didnt want to create any differences, for the purpose of imposing my view. As for my quoted statements, let me say that the three systems of philosophy - dvaita, vishintadvaita and advaita are embedded in the equation I stated. It is how I think myself and my Ishta. Each parampara (sampradaya) tries to focus on one philosophy as proceed; that is legitimate as that way it gets better focus and makes more sense within the sampradaya activities. > > Secondly, I tend to disagree (sorry) with the view that jyotish guru deals with D-24 only and not D-20. Both these belong to mental plane and affect each other. What we learn (mundane or higher knowledge)affects our understanding and hence our spiritual views on which is based our devotion. Although Sanjay-ji (and may be other SJC gurus as well) time and again proclaims " I am only siksha guru and not diksha guru " , which in literal sense is perhaps correct, yet he cannot really deny that he does not affect his students spiritual life. The moment you prescribe a mantra or a fast or a worship of a particular deity - you are essentially giving spiritual guidence in small doses. There cannot be any denial to that. Hence D-24 and D-20 are very intimately relation. Whether it is good or not, I am not arguing nor am I supposed to. Jnanayoga combines them also, if you prefer to think in that way. Maharsi starts BPHS with the kind of exalted character (profuse with spiritual attributes) that jyotisha aspirant should have in order to make him eligible for this knowledge. > > Hope my words be taken in light of suggestion only. > > Best Wishes, > > Sourav > > ===================================================== > > > sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " <starsuponme@w...> wrote: > > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani, > > > > Namaskar, > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, > > > > " We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? " > > > > " God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and " we are D-24 not D-20 " (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. > > > > > > > > Regards > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. > > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Sourav > > > > ================================================================================\ ========= > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " starsuponme@w... wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sourav, > > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition? > > > > > > Regards > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > - > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji, > > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say " He! Krishna ! He! Krishna " How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind. > > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level. > > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > - Sourav > > > > > > ===================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Sarbani Sarkar " sarbani@s... wrote: > > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami > > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP, > > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the > > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the > > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination > > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first > > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts > > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the > > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the > > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different > > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha > > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and > > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved > > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are > > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya > > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa > > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu > > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no > > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of > > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in > > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the > > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most > > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is > > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > Sarbani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM > > > > sohamsa > > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " for those who do not > > > > worship in particular forms.... > > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar... > > > > > > > > Let's not use " Ishtaamsa, " though it is understood what position you are > > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?] > > > > > > > > " Jivan Muktaamsa " perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra > > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if > > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in > > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The > > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Nitin, > > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya || > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > " Sourav Chowdhury " souravc108 > > > > sohamsa > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > > > > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji, > > > > > > > > > > namaskar. Both of you > > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of > > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various > > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest > > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which > > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > > > > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities > > > > > > > > > >Or > > > > > > > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of > > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity. > > > > > > > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?) > > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more > > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of > > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding. > > > > > > > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha > > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the > > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships > > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire > > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus > > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly > > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa. > > > > > > > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the > > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place > > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik > > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the > > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge. > > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not. > > > > > > > > > >Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > >Sourav > > > > > > > > > >=========================================================================== > > > > ================= > > > > >sohamsa , " Nitin K " sjc@j... wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > >> > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could > > > > be considered speculative. > > > > >> > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or > > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of > > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > >> > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance > > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed... > > > > >> > > > > >> Use the elements and nature. > > > > >> > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a > > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water > > > > bodies. > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from " The Beach Boys " was > > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored > > > > many songs about the beach, etc.] > > > > >> > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with > > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > >> Nitin. > > > > >> > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya || > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g... > > > > >> sohamsa > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500 > > > > >> > > > > >> >-- > > > > >> > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah || > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Dear Sonali, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we > > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak > > > > can > > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here). > > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives > > > > worship > > > > >> >of of lower dieties too. > > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest) > > > > Note > > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires > > > > of > > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata. > > > > 12th > > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta > > > > follows > > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th > > > > Ak > > > > >> >and give the person " a purpose " . But proper worship I think we just make > > > > >> >sure we are in the right path. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Warm Regards > > > > >> >Sanjay P > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________ > > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna ||Dear Rafal, Namaskar. Nice to hear from you on this. My reasons for taking us jyotisha and understanding of D-24 and D-20 are similar. The dividing line between siksha guru and diksha guru somewhere melts just like the dividing line between D-24 and D-20 does. However, a Diksha Guru, Spiritual Master must get overriding importance in any matters in life.May your jotisha studies strengthen your spiritual understanding.Best wishes,Sourav=======================================================sohamsa , "Rafal" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> Namaskar.> > Thank You for Your mail.> > What You wrote in Your second paragraph - I agree with You.> > My point was that D-24 Guru has right to guide fully in D-24 matters> and can advice or help in D-20 matters while D-20 Guru has right to> guide fully in D-20 matters.> > "Guide fully" in this context means that advices are expected to be> follow strictly by the sisya. > > I am very thankful to that Parampara of Jyotish that it deal so much> with spirituality, that was one of my important point when I was> choosing Jyotish Parampara. I couldnt reject spiritual side of Jyotish> and am very thankful for this opportunity to my Guruji Visti Larsen ,> Sanjay Rath Ji and all Jyotisha's in SJC.> > Hope I will be understood in proper mood.> > > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > > sohamsa , "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> wrote:> >> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Namaskar. You are most welcome to continue in> your belief system and proceed in your path. I didnt want to create> any differences, for the purpose of imposing my view. As for my quoted> statements, let me say that the three systems of philosophy - dvaita,> vishintadvaita and advaita are embedded in the equation I stated. It> is how I think myself and my Ishta. Each parampara (sampradaya) tries> to focus on one philosophy as proceed; that is legitimate as that way> it gets better focus and makes more sense within the sampradaya> activities.> > > > Secondly, I tend to disagree (sorry) with the view that jyotish guru> deals with D-24 only and not D-20. Both these belong to mental plane> and affect each other. What we learn (mundane or higher> knowledge)affects our understanding and hence our spiritual views on> which is based our devotion. Although Sanjay-ji (and may be other SJC> gurus as well) time and again proclaims " I am only siksha guru and> not diksha guru", which in literal sense is perhaps correct, yet he> cannot really deny that he does not affect his students spiritual> life. The moment you prescribe a mantra or a fast or a worship of a> particular deity - you are essentially giving spiritual guidence in> small doses. There cannot be any denial to that. Hence D-24 and D-20> are very intimately relation. Whether it is good or not, I am not> arguing nor am I supposed to. Jnanayoga combines them also, if you> prefer to think in that way. Maharsi starts BPHS with the kind of> exalted character (profuse with spiritual attributes) that jyotisha> aspirant should have in order to make him eligible for this knowledge. > > > > Hope my words be taken in light of suggestion only.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w...> wrote:> > >> > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > > > Namaskar,> > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on> Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya:> > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world> is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti> (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty> (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions> (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the> individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii)> the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the> distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction> between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a> philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ?"> > > > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When> this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not> exist. "> > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs,> and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be> siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran> Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this> I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism)> which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I> do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to> choose your ideas.> > > > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it> is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > Sourav> > > > > >> =========================================================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w...> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Sourav,> > > > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > > > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > - > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th> house matters in> > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta> sits in the> > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the> native from the> > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences> the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with> saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But> there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda> gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality> (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the> hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether.> Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He!> Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is> Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?> Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions,> how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion.> But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri> Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same,> however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God> wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep> in mind.> > > > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When> this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not> exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color.> Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes)> change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we> feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on> mundane level.> > > > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for> a moment.> > > > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > > > - Sourav> > > > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th> from the> > > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha> is the> > > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta,> should be first> > > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of> the charts> > > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is> indicated for the> > > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to> determine the> > > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a> slightly different> > > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in> the 12th from> > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th> house matters in> > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta> sits in the> > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the> native from the> > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever> the graha> > > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its> grahatva, and> > > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti> is achieved> > > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu> avatars are> > > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and> Matsya> > > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal,> the dasa> > > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars,> Rahu and Ketu> > > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati.> Under no> > > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or> any form of> > > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving> the planet in> > > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the> object of the> > > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we> should desire most> > > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence> Krishna is> > > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > > > sohamsa > > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those> who do not> > > > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what> position you are> > > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new> one?]> > > > > > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to> in Chandra> > > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the> same deity (if> > > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds> closer in> > > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa> (D20). > > > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva> atman. The> > > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > > Nitin,> > > > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > > > sohamsa > > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > > > > > >--> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > >> > > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > > > >> > > > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a> segment of> > > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of> various> > > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after> birth, the highest> > > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of> Mahavishnu (of which> > > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > > >> > > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > > > >> > > > > >Or> > > > > >> > > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an> aspect of> > > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > > > >> > > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call> this Ishtaamsa ?)> > > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities> are more> > > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and> ownership of> > > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > > > >> > > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same> AK graha> > > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are> appealing to the> > > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two> persons worships> > > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the> worship (in desire> > > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of> longing, say.) Thus> > > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > > > >> > > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva> rasi in the> > > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as> Ishtaamsa is the place> > > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to> believe it or not.> > > > > >> > > > > >Best wishes,> > > > > >> > > > > >Sourav> > > > > >> > > > >> >===========================================================================> > > > > =================> > > > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > > > >>> > > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is> subjective and could> > > > > be considered speculative.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol> worship or> > > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate> a lack of> > > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks> for guidance> > > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God> may speak to a> > > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when> visiting water> > > > > bodies. > > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The> Beach Boys" was> > > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water> and authored> > > > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person> speak to him with> > > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > > >> Nitin.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> --> > > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > > > >> sohamsa > > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >--> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities',> how do we> > > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in> 12th from Ak> > > > > can> > > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak> can gives> > > > > worship> > > > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last> Jyotish Digest)> > > > > Note> > > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means> just the desires> > > > > of> > > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes> Ishta Devata.> > > > > 12th> > > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has> some Ishta> > > > > follows> > > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters> related to 12th> > > > > Ak> > > > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I> think we just make> > > > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >Warm Regards> > > > > >> >Sanjay P> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 ||Hare Rama Krsna|| Dear Sourav, Namaskar It is good to see you discuss spiritual topics such as Atma, Guru, etc. Now please for the sake of us ignorrant students of God, give us a detailed description of the Atma from your meditation, and the nature of the Ishta. Best wishes, *** Visti Larsen For services and articles visit: http://srigaruda.com or http://astrovisti.com *** Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] 06 December 2005 14:40 sohamsa Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. Nice to hear from you on this. My reasons for taking us jyotisha and understanding of D-24 and D-20 are similar. The dividing line between siksha guru and diksha guru somewhere melts just like the dividing line between D-24 and D-20 does. However, a Diksha Guru, Spiritual Master must get overriding importance in any matters in life. May your jotisha studies strengthen your spiritual understanding. Best wishes, Sourav ======================================================= sohamsa , " Rafal " <starsuponme@w...> wrote: > > Dear Sourav, > Namaskar. > > Thank You for Your mail. > > What You wrote in Your second paragraph - I agree with You. > > My point was that D-24 Guru has right to guide fully in D-24 matters > and can advice or help in D-20 matters while D-20 Guru has right to > guide fully in D-20 matters. > > " Guide fully " in this context means that advices are expected to be > follow strictly by the sisya. > > I am very thankful to that Parampara of Jyotish that it deal so much > with spirituality, that was one of my important point when I was > choosing Jyotish Parampara. I couldnt reject spiritual side of Jyotish > and am very thankful for this opportunity to my Guruji Visti Larsen , > Sanjay Rath Ji and all Jyotisha's in SJC. > > Hope I will be understood in proper mood. > > > Regards > Rafal Gendarz > > > sohamsa , " Sourav Chowdhury " souravc108 > wrote: > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > Namaskar. You are most welcome to continue in > your belief system and proceed in your path. I didnt want to create > any differences, for the purpose of imposing my view. As for my quoted > statements, let me say that the three systems of philosophy - dvaita, > vishintadvaita and advaita are embedded in the equation I stated. It > is how I think myself and my Ishta. Each parampara (sampradaya) tries > to focus on one philosophy as proceed; that is legitimate as that way > it gets better focus and makes more sense within the sampradaya > activities. > > > > Secondly, I tend to disagree (sorry) with the view that jyotish guru > deals with D-24 only and not D-20. Both these belong to mental plane > and affect each other. What we learn (mundane or higher > knowledge)affects our understanding and hence our spiritual views on > which is based our devotion. Although Sanjay-ji (and may be other SJC > gurus as well) time and again proclaims " I am only siksha guru and > not diksha guru " , which in literal sense is perhaps correct, yet he > cannot really deny that he does not affect his students spiritual > life. The moment you prescribe a mantra or a fast or a worship of a > particular deity - you are essentially giving spiritual guidence in > small doses. There cannot be any denial to that. Hence D-24 and D-20 > are very intimately relation. Whether it is good or not, I am not > arguing nor am I supposed to. Jnanayoga combines them also, if you > prefer to think in that way. Maharsi starts BPHS with the kind of > exalted character (profuse with spiritual attributes) that jyotisha > aspirant should have in order to make him eligible for this knowledge. > > > > Hope my words be taken in light of suggestion only. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Sourav > > > > ===================================================== > > > > > > sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " starsuponme@w... > wrote: > > > > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II > > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani, > > > > > > Namaskar, > > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on > Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: > > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world > is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti > (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty > (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. > > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an > Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions > (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the > individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) > the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the > distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction > between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a > philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, > > > > > > " We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see > beyond this form ? " > > > > > > " God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When > this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not > exist. " > > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, > and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be > siksha-guru only, and " we are D-24 not D-20 " (discussion with Zoran > Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this > I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) > which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I > do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to > choose your ideas. > > > > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or > Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it > is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > Sourav > > > > > > > ========================================================================================= > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " starsuponme@w... > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sourav, > > > > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > > > - > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM > > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji, > > > > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from > > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th > house matters in > > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta > sits in the > > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the > native from the > > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences > the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with > saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But > there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda > gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality > (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the > hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. > Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say " He! > Krishna ! He! Krishna " How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is > Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? > Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, > how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. > But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no > color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, > however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God > wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep > in mind. > > > > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When > this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not > exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. > Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) > change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we > feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on > mundane level. > > > > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for > a moment. > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > > > - Sourav > > > > > > > > ===================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Sarbani Sarkar " sarbani@s... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP, > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th > from the > > > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha > is the > > > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has > attraction/inclination > > > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, > should be first > > > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of > the charts > > > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is > indicated for the > > > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to > determine the > > > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a > slightly different > > > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in > the 12th from > > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th > house matters in > > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta > sits in the > > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the > native from the > > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever > the graha > > > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its > grahatva, and > > > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti > is achieved > > > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu > avatars are > > > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and > Matsya > > > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, > the dasa > > > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, > Rahu and Ketu > > > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. > Under no > > > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or > any form of > > > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving > the planet in > > > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the > object of the > > > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we > should desire most > > > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence > Krishna is > > > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sarbani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM > > > > > sohamsa > > > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " for those > who do not > > > > > worship in particular forms.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > > > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar... > > > > > > > > > > Let's not use " Ishtaamsa, " though it is understood what > position you are > > > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new > one?] > > > > > > > > > > " Jivan Muktaamsa " perhaps would be better as it is referred to > in Chandra > > > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the > same deity (if > > > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds > closer in > > > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa > (D20). > > > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva > atman. The > > > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us. > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > Nitin, > > > > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya || > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Original Message - > > > > > " Sourav Chowdhury " souravc108 > > > > > sohamsa > > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > >---------- Original Message - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > namaskar. Both of you > > > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a > segment of > > > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of > various > > > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after > birth, the highest > > > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of > Mahavishnu (of which > > > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > > > > > > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities > > > > > > > > > > > >Or > > > > > > > > > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an > aspect of > > > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity. > > > > > > > > > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call > this Ishtaamsa ?) > > > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities > are more > > > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and > ownership of > > > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding. > > > > > > > > > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same > AK graha > > > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are > appealing to the > > > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two > persons worships > > > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the > worship (in desire > > > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of > longing, say.) Thus > > > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more > importantly > > > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa. > > > > > > > > > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva > rasi in the > > > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as > Ishtaamsa is the place > > > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik > > > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the > > > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this > repose/refuge. > > > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to > believe it or not. > > > > > > > > > > > >Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > >Sourav > > > > > > > > > > > > >=========================================================================== > > > > > ================= > > > > > >sohamsa , " Nitin K " sjc@j... wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is > subjective and could > > > > > be considered speculative. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol > worship or > > > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate > a lack of > > > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks > for guidance > > > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Use the elements and nature. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God > may speak to a > > > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when > visiting water > > > > > bodies. > > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from " The > Beach Boys " was > > > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water > and authored > > > > > many songs about the beach, etc.] > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person > speak to him with > > > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > > >> Nitin. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya || > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ---------- Original Message - > > > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g... > > > > > >> sohamsa > > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >---------- Original Message - > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah || > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Dear Sonali, > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', > how do we > > > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in > 12th from Ak > > > > > can > > > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here). > > > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak > can gives > > > > > worship > > > > > >> >of of lower dieties too. > > > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last > Jyotish Digest) > > > > > Note > > > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means > just the desires > > > > > of > > > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes > Ishta Devata. > > > > > 12th > > > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has > some Ishta > > > > > follows > > > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters > related to 12th > > > > > Ak > > > > > >> >and give the person " a purpose " . But proper worship I > think we just make > > > > > >> >sure we are in the right path. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Warm Regards > > > > > >> >Sanjay P > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________ > > > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Rafal, Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those translations to you in private and off-list at a later date. Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. Best Regards, Sarbani Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme] Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva’s Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva’s philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?" "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna |||| Om Gurave Namah ||Dear Visti-ji, Pranam. Best would be to learn from masters. Debating helps to agitate the mind. Masters teachings pacifies it. You know better how this works.Best wishes,Sourav===========================================================================================sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" <visti@s...> wrote:>> ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > Dear Sourav, Namaskar> > It is good to see you discuss spiritual topics such as Atma, Guru, etc. Now> please for the sake of us ignorrant students of God, give us a detailed> description of the Atma from your meditation, and the nature of the Ishta.> > Best wishes,> > ***> > Visti Larsen> > For services and articles visit: > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com>> http://astrovisti.com> > ***> > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > 06 December 2005 14:40> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Rafal,> > Namaskar. Nice to hear from you on this. My reasons for> taking us jyotisha and understanding of D-24 and D-20 are similar. The> dividing line between siksha guru and diksha guru somewhere melts just like> the dividing line between D-24 and D-20 does. However, a Diksha Guru,> Spiritual Master must get overriding importance in any matters in life.> > May your jotisha studies strengthen your spiritual understanding.> > Best wishes,> > Sourav> > =======================================================> sohamsa , "Rafal" starsuponme@w... wrote:> >> > Dear Sourav,> > Namaskar.> > > > Thank You for Your mail.> > > > What You wrote in Your second paragraph - I agree with You.> > > > My point was that D-24 Guru has right to guide fully in D-24 matters> > and can advice or help in D-20 matters while D-20 Guru has right to> > guide fully in D-20 matters.> > > > "Guide fully" in this context means that advices are expected to be> > follow strictly by the sisya. > > > > I am very thankful to that Parampara of Jyotish that it deal so much> > with spirituality, that was one of my important point when I was> > choosing Jyotish Parampara. I couldnt reject spiritual side of Jyotish> > and am very thankful for this opportunity to my Guruji Visti Larsen ,> > Sanjay Rath Ji and all Jyotisha's in SJC.> > > > Hope I will be understood in proper mood.> > > > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > sohamsa , "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > wrote:> > >> > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > Namaskar. You are most welcome to continue in> > your belief system and proceed in your path. I didnt want to create> > any differences, for the purpose of imposing my view. As for my quoted> > statements, let me say that the three systems of philosophy - dvaita,> > vishintadvaita and advaita are embedded in the equation I stated. It> > is how I think myself and my Ishta. Each parampara (sampradaya) tries> > to focus on one philosophy as proceed; that is legitimate as that way> > it gets better focus and makes more sense within the sampradaya> > activities.> > > > > > Secondly, I tend to disagree (sorry) with the view that jyotish guru> > deals with D-24 only and not D-20. Both these belong to mental plane> > and affect each other. What we learn (mundane or higher> > knowledge)affects our understanding and hence our spiritual views on> > which is based our devotion. Although Sanjay-ji (and may be other SJC> > gurus as well) time and again proclaims " I am only siksha guru and> > not diksha guru", which in literal sense is perhaps correct, yet he> > cannot really deny that he does not affect his students spiritual> > life. The moment you prescribe a mantra or a fast or a worship of a> > particular deity - you are essentially giving spiritual guidence in> > small doses. There cannot be any denial to that. Hence D-24 and D-20> > are very intimately relation. Whether it is good or not, I am not> > arguing nor am I supposed to. Jnanayoga combines them also, if you> > prefer to think in that way. Maharsi starts BPHS with the kind of> > exalted character (profuse with spiritual attributes) that jyotisha> > aspirant should have in order to make him eligible for this knowledge. > > > > > > Hope my words be taken in light of suggestion only.> > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > Sourav> > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w...> > wrote:> > > >> > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > > > > > Namaskar,> > > > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on> > Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya:> > > > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world> > is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti> > (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty> > (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> > Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions> > (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the> > individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii)> > the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the> > distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction> > between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a> > philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > > > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> > beyond this form ?"> > > > > > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When> > this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not> > exist. "> > > > > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs,> > and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be> > siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran> > Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this> > I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism)> > which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I> > do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to> > choose your ideas.> > > > > > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> > Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it> > is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > > > Sourav> > > > > > > >> >> ============================================================================> =============> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w...> > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Sourav,> > > > > > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > > > sohamsa > > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > > > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th> > house matters in> > > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta> > sits in the> > > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the> > native from the> > > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences> > the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with> > saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But> > there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda> > gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality> > (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the> > hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether.> > Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He!> > Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is> > Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?> > Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions,> > how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion.> > But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri> > Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> > color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same,> > however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God> > wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep> > in mind.> > > > > > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When> > this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not> > exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color.> > Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes)> > change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we> > feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on> > mundane level.> > > > > > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for> > a moment.> > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > > > > > - Sourav> > > > > > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th> > from the> > > > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha> > is the> > > > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> > attraction/inclination> > > > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta,> > should be first> > > > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of> > the charts> > > > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is> > indicated for the> > > > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to> > determine the> > > > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a> > slightly different> > > > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in> > the 12th from> > > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th> > house matters in> > > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta> > sits in the> > > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the> > native from the> > > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever> > the graha> > > > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its> > grahatva, and> > > > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti> > is achieved> > > > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu> > avatars are> > > > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and> > Matsya> > > > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal,> > the dasa> > > > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars,> > Rahu and Ketu> > > > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati.> > Under no> > > > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or> > any form of> > > > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving> > the planet in> > > > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the> > object of the> > > > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we> > should desire most> > > > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence> > Krishna is> > > > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > > > > sohamsa > > > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those> > who do not> > > > > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > > > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what> > position you are> > > > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new> > one?]> > > > > > > > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to> > in Chandra> > > > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the> > same deity (if> > > > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds> > closer in> > > > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa> > (D20). > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva> > atman. The> > > > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > > > Nitin,> > > > > > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > > > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > > > > sohamsa > > > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > > > > > > > >--> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > >> > > > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a> > segment of> > > > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of> > various> > > > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after> > birth, the highest> > > > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of> > Mahavishnu (of which> > > > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > > > >> > > > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > > > > >> > > > > > >Or> > > > > > >> > > > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an> > aspect of> > > > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > > > > >> > > > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call> > this Ishtaamsa ?)> > > > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities> > are more> > > > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and> > ownership of> > > > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > > > > >> > > > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same> > AK graha> > > > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are> > appealing to the> > > > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two> > persons worships> > > > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the> > worship (in desire> > > > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of> > longing, say.) Thus> > > > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> > importantly> > > > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > > > > >> > > > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva> > rasi in the> > > > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as> > Ishtaamsa is the place> > > > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> > repose/refuge.> > > > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to> > believe it or not.> > > > > > >> > > > > > >Best wishes,> > > > > > >> > > > > > >Sourav> > > > > > >> > > > > >> >> >===========================================================================> > > > > > =================> > > > > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is> > subjective and could> > > > > > be considered speculative.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol> > worship or> > > > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate> > a lack of> > > > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks> > for guidance> > > > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God> > may speak to a> > > > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when> > visiting water> > > > > > bodies. > > > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The> > Beach Boys" was> > > > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water> > and authored> > > > > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person> > speak to him with> > > > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > > > >> Nitin.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> --> > > > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > > > > >> sohamsa > > > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >--> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities',> > how do we> > > > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in> > 12th from Ak> > > > > > can> > > > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak> > can gives> > > > > > worship> > > > > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last> > Jyotish Digest)> > > > > > Note> > > > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means> > just the desires> > > > > > of> > > > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes> > Ishta Devata.> > > > > > 12th> > > > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has> > some Ishta> > > > > > follows> > > > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters> > related to 12th> > > > > > Ak> > > > > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I> > think we just make> > > > > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >Warm Regards> > > > > > >> >Sanjay P> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 ||Hare Rama Krsna|| Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from Maharishi Parasara: kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet. tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH.. Subsequently he says; paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH. You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the karakamsa chapter. Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the form is of a kShudra roopa. Best wishes, *** Visti Larsen For services and articles visit: http://srigaruda.com or http://astrovisti.com *** Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani] 06 December 2005 17:04 sohamsa RE: Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Rafal, Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those translations to you in private and off-list at a later date. Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. Best Regards, Sarbani Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme] Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM sohamsa Re: Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva’s Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva’s philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, " We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? " " God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and " we are D-24 not D-20 " (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " <starsuponme@w...> wrote: > > Dear Sourav, > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition? > > Regards > Rafal Gendarz > > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > Dear Sarbani-ji, > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say " He! Krishna ! He! Krishna " How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind. > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level. > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment. > > Best Wishes, > > - Sourav > > ===================================================== > > > > > sohamsa , " Sarbani Sarkar " sarbani@s... wrote: > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP, > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the > > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.) > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Sarbani > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM > > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " for those who do not > > worship in particular forms.... > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar... > > > > Let's not use " Ishtaamsa, " though it is understood what position you are > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?] > > > > " Jivan Muktaamsa " perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra > > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us. > > > > Best wishes, > > Nitin, > > > > || Namah Shivaaya || > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > " Sourav Chowdhury " souravc108 > > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000 > > > > >-- > > > > > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji, > > > > > > namaskar. Both of you > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities > > > > > >Or > > > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of > > Him/Her and that forms our deity. > > > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?) > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding. > > > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa. > > > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge. > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not. > > > > > >Best wishes, > > > > > >Sourav > > > > > >=========================================================================== > > ================= > > >sohamsa , " Nitin K " sjc@j... wrote: > > >> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could > > be considered speculative. > > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of > > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed... > > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature. > > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water > > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from " The Beach Boys " was > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored > > many songs about the beach, etc.] > > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help. > > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin. > > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya || > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------- Original Message - > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g... > > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500 > > >> > > >> >---------- Original Message - > > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah || > > >> > > > >> >Dear Sonali, > > >> > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji. > > >> > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak > > can > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here). > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives > > worship > > >> >of of lower dieties too. > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest) > > Note > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak. > > >> > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires > > of > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata. > > 12th > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta > > follows > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th > > Ak > > >> >and give the person " a purpose " . But proper worship I think we just make > > >> >sure we are in the right path. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >Warm Regards > > >> >Sanjay P > > >> > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________ > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna ||Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. Visti-ji, the final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's ideas. Let me reiterate two things:(a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji will help me and others.(b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread.Best wishes,Sourav============================================================================================sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" <visti@s...> wrote:>> ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> Maharishi Parasara:> > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > Subsequently he says; > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> karakamsa chapter.> > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the form> is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > Best wishes,> > ***> > Visti Larsen> > For services and articles visit: > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com>> http://astrovisti.com> > ***> > _____ > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > 06 December 2005 17:04> sohamsa > RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach> the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that> there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This> is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which> changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> sohamsa > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > Namaskar,> > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> Sampradaya:> > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not> in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda),> viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> this form ?"> > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation> is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like> Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this> concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Rafal,> > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> are free to choose your ideas.> > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > Best Wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> =============> > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> >> > Dear Sourav,> > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > - > > Sourav Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa,> for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or> lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people> this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the> screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color> but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We> were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just> like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day> to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > - Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > >> > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> first> > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> charts> > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> the> > > native or not. > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> different> > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> achieved> > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu> > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet> in> > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> most> > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > sohamsa > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> Chandra> > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> (if> > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > Best wishes,> > > Nitin,> > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > sohamsa > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > >--> > > > > > >> > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > >> > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > >> > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> highest> > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> which> > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > >> > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > >> > > >Or> > > >> > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > >> > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> Ishtaamsa ?)> > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership> of> > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > >> > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> the> > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> worships> > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> desire> > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> Thus> > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > >> > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> the> > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> place> > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> not.> > > >> > > >Best wishes,> > > >> > > >Sourav> > > >> > >> >===========================================================================> > > =================> > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > >>> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > >> > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > >> > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> could> > > be considered speculative.> > > >> > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > > divinity or spirituality. > > > >> > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> guidance> > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > >> > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > >> > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak> to a> > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > bodies. > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys"> was> > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> authored> > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > >> > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> with> > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > >> > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > >> > > > >> Best wishes, > > > >> Nitin.> > > >> > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --> > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > >> sohamsa > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > >> > > > >> >--> > > >> > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > >> >> > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > >> >> > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > >> >> > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> Ak> > > can> > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > > worship> > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > > Note> > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > >> >> > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> desires> > > of> > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> Devata.> > > 12th> > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > > follows> > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> 12th> > > Ak> > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just> make> > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >Warm Regards> > > >> >Sanjay P> > > >> >> > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Namaskar Sri Bharat, When You would be interested in Parampara I belief which is founded by names like Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada then there is always simple Tattva - The last part of Absolute realisation is Sat-Cit-Ananda Full of spiritual qualities Form of Krsna. So there is no need to convincing each other if we know which Guru's we follow. Regards Rafal Gendarz - Bharat Hindu Astrology sohamsa Monday, December 05, 2005 8:05 PM Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Namaskaar Sri RafalJust giving sharing a simple thought:Quantity of Isvara is how much? - Infinite or less? If it is less, then, Isvara is limited and cannot be called Isvara as it is subject to time, space and causation (all texts of Vedanta speak of it being beyond time, space and causation). If it is infinite, then, it has to be everything. Infact, everything does not exist, only it exists. Further on that thought: In Deep Sleep: Where is the individual soul? Where is Isvara? Where is the distinction? There is nothing there - Right? Now, who knows that there is nothing in Deep sleep!!?!! What I am deriving at is that within one of our states, there isn't a distinction between the "panch bedhas". They only appear when one identifies with the body and therefore with the physical world, through the senses. There is a beautiful statement:When I see my body, I am different from YOU (Isvara) - DwaitaWhen I see my mind, I am a part of YOU - Vishisht-advaitaWhen I see my spirit, I am YOU - AdvaitaHope this helpsThanks and RegardsBharat On 12/4/05, Rafal Gendarz < starsuponme wrote: II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?" "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Dear Sourav, Namaskar Yes they will. My BK is Moon in eight house. Regards Rafal Gendarz - Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:39 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. Nice to hear from you on this. My reasons for taking us jyotisha and understanding of D-24 and D-20 are similar. The dividing line between siksha guru and diksha guru somewhere melts just like the dividing line between D-24 and D-20 does. However, a Diksha Guru, Spiritual Master must get overriding importance in any matters in life. May your jotisha studies strengthen your spiritual understanding. Best wishes, Sourav =======================================================sohamsa , "Rafal" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> Namaskar.> > Thank You for Your mail.> > What You wrote in Your second paragraph - I agree with You.> > My point was that D-24 Guru has right to guide fully in D-24 matters> and can advice or help in D-20 matters while D-20 Guru has right to> guide fully in D-20 matters.> > "Guide fully" in this context means that advices are expected to be> follow strictly by the sisya. > > I am very thankful to that Parampara of Jyotish that it deal so much> with spirituality, that was one of my important point when I was> choosing Jyotish Parampara. I couldnt reject spiritual side of Jyotish> and am very thankful for this opportunity to my Guruji Visti Larsen ,> Sanjay Rath Ji and all Jyotisha's in SJC.> > Hope I will be understood in proper mood.> > > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > > sohamsa , "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> wrote:> >> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Namaskar. You are most welcome to continue in> your belief system and proceed in your path. I didnt want to create> any differences, for the purpose of imposing my view. As for my quoted> statements, let me say that the three systems of philosophy - dvaita,> vishintadvaita and advaita are embedded in the equation I stated. It> is how I think myself and my Ishta. Each parampara (sampradaya) tries> to focus on one philosophy as proceed; that is legitimate as that way> it gets better focus and makes more sense within the sampradaya> activities.> > > > Secondly, I tend to disagree (sorry) with the view that jyotish guru> deals with D-24 only and not D-20. Both these belong to mental plane> and affect each other. What we learn (mundane or higher> knowledge)affects our understanding and hence our spiritual views on> which is based our devotion. Although Sanjay-ji (and may be other SJC> gurus as well) time and again proclaims " I am only siksha guru and> not diksha guru", which in literal sense is perhaps correct, yet he> cannot really deny that he does not affect his students spiritual> life. The moment you prescribe a mantra or a fast or a worship of a> particular deity - you are essentially giving spiritual guidence in> small doses. There cannot be any denial to that. Hence D-24 and D-20> are very intimately relation. Whether it is good or not, I am not> arguing nor am I supposed to. Jnanayoga combines them also, if you> prefer to think in that way. Maharsi starts BPHS with the kind of> exalted character (profuse with spiritual attributes) that jyotisha> aspirant should have in order to make him eligible for this knowledge. > > > > Hope my words be taken in light of suggestion only.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w...> wrote:> > >> > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > > > Namaskar,> > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on> Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya:> > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world> is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti> (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty> (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions> (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the> individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii)> the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the> distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction> between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a> philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ?"> > > > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When> this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not> exist. "> > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs,> and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be> siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran> Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this> I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism)> which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I> do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to> choose your ideas.> > > > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it> is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > Sourav> > > > > >> =========================================================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w...> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Sourav,> > > > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > > > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > - > > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th> house matters in> > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta> sits in the> > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the> native from the> > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences> the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with> saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But> there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda> gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality> (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the> hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether.> Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He!> Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is> Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?> Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions,> how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion.> But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri> Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same,> however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God> wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep> in mind.> > > > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When> this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not> exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color.> Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes)> change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we> feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on> mundane level.> > > > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for> a moment.> > > > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > > > - Sourav> > > > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th> from the> > > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha> is the> > > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta,> should be first> > > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of> the charts> > > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is> indicated for the> > > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to> determine the> > > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a> slightly different> > > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in> the 12th from> > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th> house matters in> > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta> sits in the> > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the> native from the> > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever> the graha> > > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its> grahatva, and> > > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti> is achieved> > > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu> avatars are> > > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and> Matsya> > > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal,> the dasa> > > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars,> Rahu and Ketu> > > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati.> Under no> > > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or> any form of> > > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving> the planet in> > > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the> object of the> > > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we> should desire most> > > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence> Krishna is> > > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > > > sohamsa > > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those> who do not> > > > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what> position you are> > > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new> one?]> > > > > > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to> in Chandra> > > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the> same deity (if> > > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds> closer in> > > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa> (D20). > > > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva> atman. The> > > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > > Nitin,> > > > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > > > sohamsa > > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > > > > > >--> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > >> > > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > > > >> > > > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a> segment of> > > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of> various> > > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after> birth, the highest> > > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of> Mahavishnu (of which> > > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > > >> > > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > > > >> > > > > >Or> > > > > >> > > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an> aspect of> > > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > > > >> > > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call> this Ishtaamsa ?)> > > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities> are more> > > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and> ownership of> > > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > > > >> > > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same> AK graha> > > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are> appealing to the> > > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two> persons worships> > > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the> worship (in desire> > > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of> longing, say.) Thus> > > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > > > >> > > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva> rasi in the> > > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as> Ishtaamsa is the place> > > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to> believe it or not.> > > > > >> > > > > >Best wishes,> > > > > >> > > > > >Sourav> > > > > >> > > > >> >===========================================================================> > > > > =================> > > > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > > > >>> > > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is> subjective and could> > > > > be considered speculative.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol> worship or> > > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate> a lack of> > > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks> for guidance> > > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God> may speak to a> > > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when> visiting water> > > > > bodies. > > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The> Beach Boys" was> > > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water> and authored> > > > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person> speak to him with> > > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > > >> Nitin.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> --> > > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > > > >> sohamsa > > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >--> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities',> how do we> > > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in> 12th from Ak> > > > > can> > > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak> can gives> > > > > worship> > > > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last> Jyotish Digest)> > > > > Note> > > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means> just the desires> > > > > of> > > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes> Ishta Devata.> > > > > 12th> > > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has> some Ishta> > > > > follows> > > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters> related to 12th> > > > > Ak> > > > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I> think we just make> > > > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >Warm Regards> > > > > >> >Sanjay P> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Dear Sarbani, Namaskar, Thank You for giving me place to continue my Jyotish studies with my own (given by my Sampradaya) vision of God-realization. I am interested in Your translation. Please send it me privately. Thank You for care. Regards Rafal Gendarz - Sarbani Sarkar sohamsa Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:04 PM RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Rafal, Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those translations to you in private and off-list at a later date. Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. Best Regards, Sarbani Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme] Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva’s Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva’s philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?" "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Rafal, I just want to say something. We all come from different spiritual paramparas where the absolute realisation is sat chit ananda. It does not necessarily have to be only from the paramparas founded by the names you mention. When we are in a public space, we must learn to accept and respect each other's spiritual traditions that each comes from. Obviously each of us might believe in the superiority of the spiritual tradition that we belong. But I don't think we ought to convince others that it is the best. Rather, we should respect the other person's sensibilities and beliefs. If we do not do that, we cannot live in the same space and talk. I hope you understand the spirit that I am writing this in. Incidentally, the difference between Sourav and me was purely on astrological grounds and not spiritual. Best Regards, Sarbani Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:28 AMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Namaskar Sri Bharat, When You would be interested in Parampara I belief which is founded by names like Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada then there is always simple Tattva - The last part of Absolute realisation is Sat-Cit-Ananda Full of spiritual qualities Form of Krsna. So there is no need to convincing each other if we know which Guru's we follow. Regards Rafal Gendarz - Bharat Hindu Astrology sohamsa Monday, December 05, 2005 8:05 PM Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Namaskaar Sri RafalJust giving sharing a simple thought:Quantity of Isvara is how much? - Infinite or less? If it is less, then, Isvara is limited and cannot be called Isvara as it is subject to time, space and causation (all texts of Vedanta speak of it being beyond time, space and causation). If it is infinite, then, it has to be everything. Infact, everything does not exist, only it exists. Further on that thought: In Deep Sleep: Where is the individual soul? Where is Isvara? Where is the distinction? There is nothing there - Right? Now, who knows that there is nothing in Deep sleep!!?!! What I am deriving at is that within one of our states, there isn't a distinction between the "panch bedhas". They only appear when one identifies with the body and therefore with the physical world, through the senses. There is a beautiful statement:When I see my body, I am different from YOU (Isvara) - DwaitaWhen I see my mind, I am a part of YOU - Vishisht-advaitaWhen I see my spirit, I am YOU - AdvaitaHope this helpsThanks and RegardsBharat On 12/4/05, Rafal Gendarz < starsuponme wrote: II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?" "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Rafal, Namaskar. I am no one to give you or not to give you space. The space is universal, where we must all live together without jostling each other. Best Regards, Sarbani Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:48 AMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Dear Sarbani, Namaskar, Thank You for giving me place to continue my Jyotish studies with my own (given by my Sampradaya) vision of God-realization. I am interested in Your translation. Please send it me privately. Thank You for care. Regards Rafal Gendarz - Sarbani Sarkar sohamsa Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:04 PM RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Rafal, Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those translations to you in private and off-list at a later date. Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. Best Regards, Sarbani Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme] Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva’s Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva’s philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?" "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Visti and Sourav, My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not elaborating on this further. Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini ) has been ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing personality labelling. That shows immaturity. Person A Navamsha Mercury Atmakaraka Scorpio rising Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd. Venus in the 5th. Mars in the 8th. Ketu in the 9th Moon in the 10th. Mercury in the 11th. Saturn in the 12th. Person B Navamsha Rahu Atmakaraka Sagittarius rising. Venus in the 2nd. Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th. Mars in the 7th. Moon and Sun in the 10th Rahu in the 11th. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. Visti-ji, the final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's ideas. Let me reiterate two things: (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji will help me and others. (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread. Best wishes, Sourav ============================================================================================sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" <visti@s...> wrote:>> ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> Maharishi Parasara:> > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > Subsequently he says; > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> karakamsa chapter.> > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the form> is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > Best wishes,> > ***> > Visti Larsen> > For services and articles visit: > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com>> http://astrovisti.com> > ***> > _____ > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > 06 December 2005 17:04> sohamsa > RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach> the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that> there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This> is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which> changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> sohamsa > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > Namaskar,> > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> Sampradaya:> > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not> in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda),> viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> this form ?"> > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation> is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like> Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this> concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Rafal,> > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> are free to choose your ideas.> > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > Best Wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> =============> > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> >> > Dear Sourav,> > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > - > > Sourav Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa,> for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or> lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people> this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the> screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color> but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We> were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just> like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day> to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > - Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > >> > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> first> > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> charts> > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> the> > > native or not. > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> different> > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> achieved> > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu> > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet> in> > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> most> > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > sohamsa > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> Chandra> > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> (if> > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > Best wishes,> > > Nitin,> > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > sohamsa > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > >--> > > > > > >> > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > >> > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > >> > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> highest> > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> which> > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > >> > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > >> > > >Or> > > >> > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > >> > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> Ishtaamsa ?)> > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership> of> > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > >> > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> the> > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> worships> > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> desire> > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> Thus> > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > >> > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> the> > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> place> > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> not.> > > >> > > >Best wishes,> > > >> > > >Sourav> > > >> > >> >===========================================================================> > > =================> > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > >>> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > >> > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > >> > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> could> > > be considered speculative.> > > >> > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > > divinity or spirituality. > > > >> > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> guidance> > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > >> > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > >> > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak> to a> > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > bodies. > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys"> was> > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> authored> > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > >> > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> with> > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > >> > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > >> > > > >> Best wishes, > > > >> Nitin.> > > >> > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --> > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > >> sohamsa > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > >> > > > >> >--> > > >> > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > >> >> > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > >> >> > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > >> >> > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> Ak> > > can> > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > > worship> > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > > Note> > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > >> >> > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> desires> > > of> > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> Devata.> > > 12th> > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > > follows> > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> 12th> > > Ak> > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just> make> > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >Warm Regards> > > >> >Sanjay P> > > >> >> > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Dear Sarbani, Namaskar Yes, I fully agree. That was what I wanted to say. Regards Rafal Gendarz - Sarbani Sarkar sohamsa Wednesday, December 07, 2005 4:53 AM RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Rafal, I just want to say something. We all come from different spiritual paramparas where the absolute realisation is sat chit ananda. It does not necessarily have to be only from the paramparas founded by the names you mention. When we are in a public space, we must learn to accept and respect each other's spiritual traditions that each comes from. Obviously each of us might believe in the superiority of the spiritual tradition that we belong. But I don't think we ought to convince others that it is the best. Rather, we should respect the other person's sensibilities and beliefs. If we do not do that, we cannot live in the same space and talk. I hope you understand the spirit that I am writing this in. Incidentally, the difference between Sourav and me was purely on astrological grounds and not spiritual. Best Regards, Sarbani Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:28 AMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Namaskar Sri Bharat, When You would be interested in Parampara I belief which is founded by names like Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada then there is always simple Tattva - The last part of Absolute realisation is Sat-Cit-Ananda Full of spiritual qualities Form of Krsna. So there is no need to convincing each other if we know which Guru's we follow. Regards Rafal Gendarz - Bharat Hindu Astrology sohamsa Monday, December 05, 2005 8:05 PM Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Namaskaar Sri RafalJust giving sharing a simple thought:Quantity of Isvara is how much? - Infinite or less? If it is less, then, Isvara is limited and cannot be called Isvara as it is subject to time, space and causation (all texts of Vedanta speak of it being beyond time, space and causation). If it is infinite, then, it has to be everything. Infact, everything does not exist, only it exists. Further on that thought: In Deep Sleep: Where is the individual soul? Where is Isvara? Where is the distinction? There is nothing there - Right? Now, who knows that there is nothing in Deep sleep!!?!! What I am deriving at is that within one of our states, there isn't a distinction between the "panch bedhas". They only appear when one identifies with the body and therefore with the physical world, through the senses. There is a beautiful statement:When I see my body, I am different from YOU (Isvara) - DwaitaWhen I see my mind, I am a part of YOU - Vishisht-advaitaWhen I see my spirit, I am YOU - AdvaitaHope this helpsThanks and RegardsBharat On 12/4/05, Rafal Gendarz < starsuponme wrote: II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II Dear Sourav, Sarbani, Namaskar, I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya: (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda), viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ?" "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. Regards Rafal Gendarz Sourav Chowdhury sohamsa Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Rafal, Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you are free to choose your ideas. One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). Best Wishes, Sourav ========================================================================================= sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@w...> wrote:>> Dear Sourav,> > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > Regards> Rafal Gendarz> > - > Sourav Chowdhury > sohamsa > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> > >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna ||Dear Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. It seems ( may be wrongly) that you are having problems with whatever I am saying. Hence I get these kind of replies. You are most welcome to hold on to your view about learning.Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and> reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only> does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that> there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to> discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing> personality labelling. That shows immaturity. I wasn't talkng about 90% of the list. I interact with very few people and hence I dont know how all astrology students learn. I personally dont give premium on "collegiate" way of learning as you have put it: learning through discussion and understanding each others views of the world. Infact, I think I really don't need to understand other's views too much ( mark "too much"). It is a confusing process for me to graft other's views with my own views. I try to listen to the guru's advice and the best gurus I find are : Time and my own Mind (intuition), beyond both Mother is standing. If it makes me immature or narrow minded in other's view, I cannot help. Not all of Mother's children are of the same age.I think about 90% people on this list must be highly> intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for> correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right> tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives> the correct intuitions.About intuition, there is no correct or wrong. I use to understand principles right from the root. Sometimes the results I see don't match up with the reality but I don't stop using my intuitive understanding. Application of intuitive learning and memory-based learning is a highly complex process. Guess work is not the same as intuition. Guess work is as good as playing a slot machine, whereas intuition is an inner prodding that pushes oneself in a particular direction. Intuition is a faculty of going beyond facts and realities of this present life. May be it is coming from past life experiences, who knows? Or may be Mother has give this faculty to each one of us and some of us do not rely on it extensively and hence the sense of possessing intuition is not developed in some of us ('us' means in general, and not this list's populace), just like the sense of smell of hearing compared to hunting animals. What we have or can have or will have, we already have. Mantra is an euphemism for saying " I have it, I have it ". Thats all. "Mananat trayatey iti mantrah".The mind doesnt know what itself is in possession of. Hence Mantra is to push the mind towards that belief. Thus uttering a mantra doesn't make intuition correct. It's already there latent. Anyway we two have distinct ideas of growth and learning processes. It serves no good cause to put them at loggerheads any more time.Can you kindly explain your understanding on the two quoted charts ? I request you. I will not take up any more discussions on this thread but will definitely read.Best wishes,Sourav===================================================== sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Visti and Sourav,> > My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference> between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the> 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The> speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It> is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not> elaborating on this further.> > Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us> strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. > > A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the> shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation> and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini has been> ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have> our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly> intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for> correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right> tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives> the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and> reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only> does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that> there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to> discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing> personality labelling. That shows immaturity. > > Person A Navamsha> Mercury Atmakaraka> > Scorpio rising> Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd.> Venus in the 5th.> Mars in the 8th.> Ketu in the 9th> Moon in the 10th.> Mercury in the 11th.> Saturn in the 12th.> > Person B Navamsha> Rahu Atmakaraka> > Sagittarius rising.> Venus in the 2nd.> Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th.> Mars in the 7th.> Moon and Sun in the 10th> Rahu in the 11th.> > > > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Visti-ji, the> final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's> ideas. Let me reiterate two things:> > (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she> said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house> to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it> portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps> a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji> will help me and others.> > (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary> but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks> up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I> may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care> much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is> here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very> difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my> understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make> dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread.> > Best wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> ================> sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" visti@s... wrote:> >> > ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > > > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > > > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> > Maharishi Parasara:> > > > > > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > > > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > > > Subsequently he says; > > > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > > > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> > karakamsa chapter.> > > > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the> form> > is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > ***> > > > Visti Larsen> > > > For services and articles visit: > > > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com>> > http://astrovisti.com> > > > ***> > > > _____ > > > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > > 06 December 2005 17:04> > sohamsa > > RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should> approach> > the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> > spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> > causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> > from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> > Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> > Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> > original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> > the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> > questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> > equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> > in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> > discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> > translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > > > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is> that> > there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> > interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> > of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> > that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways.> This> > is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics,> which> > changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> > are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> > sohamsa > > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > > > > > Namaskar,> > > > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> > Sampradaya:> > > > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> > of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> > power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot> not> > in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> > Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions> (Pancha-Bheda),> > viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> > distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> > individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> > another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> > Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > > > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> > this form ?"> > > > > > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation> > is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > > > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and> like> > Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> > and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> > comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate> this> > concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> > (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> > Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> > are free to choose your ideas.> > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> > Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> > avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > Sourav> > > >> ============================================================================> > =============> > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sourav,> > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > > > Regards> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > - > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> > outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya> rupa,> > for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater> or> > lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> > in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some> people> > this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until> the> > screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> > perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> > Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> > beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> > all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> > portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> > Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color> > but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> > approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety.> We> > were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> > equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist.> Just> > like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> > color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from> day> > to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> > attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a> moment.> > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > - Sourav> > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > > >> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> > attraction/inclination> > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> > first> > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> > charts> > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> > the> > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine> the> > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> > different> > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> > from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva,> and> > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> > achieved> > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> > Ketu> > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under> no> > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form> of> > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the> planet> > in> > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should> desire> > most> > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > > sohamsa > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do> not> > > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you> are> > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> > Chandra> > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> > (if> > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman.> The> > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > Nitin,> > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > > sohamsa > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > > > >--> > > > > > > > >> > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > >> > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > > >> > > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment> of> > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> > highest> > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> > which> > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > >> > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > > >> > > > >Or> > > > >> > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect> of> > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > > >> > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> > Ishtaamsa ?)> > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and> ownership> > of> > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > > >> > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing> to> > the> > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> > worships> > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> > desire> > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> > Thus> > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> > importantly> > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > > >> > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> > the> > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> > place> > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> > repose/refuge.> > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> > not.> > > > >> > > > >Best wishes,> > > > >> > > > >Sourav> > > > >> > > >> >> >===========================================================================> > > > =================> > > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > > >>> > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > >> > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> > could> > > > be considered speculative.> > > > >> > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack> of> > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > >> > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> > guidance> > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > > >> > > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > > >> > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may> speak> > to a> > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > > bodies. > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach> Boys"> > was> > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> > authored> > > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > > >> > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> > with> > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > > >> > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > >> Nitin.> > > > >> > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> --> > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > > >> sohamsa > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > > >> > > > > >> >--> > > > >> > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > > >> >> > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> > Ak> > > > can> > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can> gives> > > > worship> > > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish> Digest)> > > > Note> > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> > desires> > > > of> > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> > Devata.> > > > 12th> > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some> Ishta> > > > follows> > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> > 12th> > > > Ak> > > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we> just> > make> > > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Warm Regards> > > > >> >Sanjay P> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 || Om Gurave Namah || Dear Sarabani ji, The first chart is of tantric? and the second is of Srila Prabhupada. The 12th from Ak in Srila's chart indicated by both Sun and Moon. Both Rama and Krishna. Hence his mantra contained both Rama and Krishna. The first chart I think is worshipper of Mother form. Warm Regards Sanjay P On 12/6/05, Sarbani Sarkar <sarbani wrote: Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Visti and Sourav, My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not elaborating on this further. Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini ) has been ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing personality labelling. That shows immaturity. Person A Navamsha Mercury Atmakaraka Scorpio rising Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd. Venus in the 5th. Mars in the 8th. Ketu in the 9th Moon in the 10th. Mercury in the 11th. Saturn in the 12th. Person B Navamsha Rahu Atmakaraka Sagittarius rising. Venus in the 2nd. Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th. Mars in the 7th. Moon and Sun in the 10th Rahu in the 11th. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PMsohamsa Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. Visti-ji, the final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's ideas. Let me reiterate two things: (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji will help me and others. (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread. Best wishes, Sourav ============================================================================================sohamsa , " Visti Larsen " <visti@s...> wrote:>> ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> Maharishi Parasara:> > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > Subsequently he says; > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> karakamsa chapter.> > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the form> is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > Best wishes,> > ***> > Visti Larsen> > For services and articles visit: > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or < http://astrovisti.com>> http://astrovisti.com> > ***> > _____ > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > 06 December 2005 17:04> sohamsa > RE: Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " -> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach> the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that> there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This> is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which> changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> sohamsa > Re: Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " -> > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > Namaskar,> > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> Sampradaya:> > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not> in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda),> viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > " We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> this form ? " > > > > " God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation> is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like> Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> and " we are D-24 not D-20 " (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this> concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " -> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Rafal,> > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> are free to choose your ideas.> > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > Best Wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> =============> > > > sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " starsuponme@w... wrote:> >> > Dear Sourav,> > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > - > > Sourav Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " -> > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa,> for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or> lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people> this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the> screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> perceive God. We say " He! Krishna ! He! Krishna " How much do we know real> Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color> but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We> were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just> like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day> to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > - Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Sarbani Sarkar " sarbani@s... wrote:> > >> > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> first> > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> charts> > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> the> > > native or not. > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> different> > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> achieved> > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu> > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet> in> > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> most> > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > sohamsa > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " for those who do not> > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > Let's not use " Ishtaamsa, " though it is understood what position you are> > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > " Jivan Muktaamsa " perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> Chandra> > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> (if> > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > Best wishes,> > > Nitin,> > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > " Sourav Chowdhury " souravc108> > > sohamsa > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > >--> > > > > > >> > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > >> > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > >> > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> highest> > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> which> > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > >> > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > >> > > >Or> > > >> > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > >> > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> Ishtaamsa ?)> > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership> of> > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > >> > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> the> > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> worships> > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> desire> > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> Thus> > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > >> > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> the> > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> place> > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> not.> > > >> > > >Best wishes,> > > >> > > >Sourav> > > >> > >> >===========================================================================> > > =================> > > >sohamsa , " Nitin K " sjc@j... wrote:> > > >>> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > >> > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > >> > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> could> > > be considered speculative.> > > >> > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > > divinity or spirituality. > > > >> > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> guidance> > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > >> > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > >> > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak> to a> > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > bodies. > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from " The Beach Boys " > was> > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> authored> > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > >> > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> with> > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > >> > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > >> > > > >> Best wishes, > > > >> Nitin.> > > >> > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --> > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > >> sohamsa > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > >> > > > >> >--> > > >> > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > >> >> > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > >> >> > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > >> >> > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> Ak> > > can> > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > > worship> > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > > Note> > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > >> >> > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> desires> > > of> > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> Devata.> > > 12th> > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > > follows> > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> 12th> > > Ak> > > >> >and give the person " a purpose " . But proper worship I think we just> make> > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >Warm Regards> > > >> >Sanjay P> > > >> >> > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Sourav, Then there is no point in talking is there? Incidentally, I never thought we were at loggerheads. But yes I found you vehemently antagonistic although you speak politely. Now that I know the reason why, I feel more relaxed about it. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:15 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. It seems ( may be wrongly) that you are having problems with whatever I am saying. Hence I get these kind of replies. You are most welcome to hold on to your view about learning. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and> reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only> does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that> there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to> discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing> personality labelling. That shows immaturity. I wasn't talkng about 90% of the list. I interact with very few people and hence I dont know how all astrology students learn. I personally dont give premium on "collegiate" way of learning as you have put it: learning through discussion and understanding each others views of the world. Infact, I think I really don't need to understand other's views too much ( mark "too much"). It is a confusing process for me to graft other's views with my own views. I try to listen to the guru's advice and the best gurus I find are : Time and my own Mind (intuition), beyond both Mother is standing. If it makes me immature or narrow minded in other's view, I cannot help. Not all of Mother's children are of the same age. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly> intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for> correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right> tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives> the correct intuitions. About intuition, there is no correct or wrong. I use to understand principles right from the root. Sometimes the results I see don't match up with the reality but I don't stop using my intuitive understanding. Application of intuitive learning and memory-based learning is a highly complex process. Guess work is not the same as intuition. Guess work is as good as playing a slot machine, whereas intuition is an inner prodding that pushes oneself in a particular direction. Intuition is a faculty of going beyond facts and realities of this present life. May be it is coming from past life experiences, who knows? Or may be Mother has give this faculty to each one of us and some of us do not rely on it extensively and hence the sense of possessing intuition is not developed in some of us ('us' means in general, and not this list's populace), just like the sense of smell of hearing compared to hunting animals. What we have or can have or will have, we already have. Mantra is an euphemism for saying " I have it, I have it ". Thats all. "Mananat trayatey iti mantrah".The mind doesnt know what itself is in possession of. Hence Mantra is to push the mind towards that belief. Thus uttering a mantra doesn't make intuition correct. It's already there latent. Anyway we two have distinct ideas of growth and learning processes. It serves no good cause to put them at loggerheads any more time. Can you kindly explain your understanding on the two quoted charts ? I request you. I will not take up any more discussions on this thread but will definitely read. Best wishes, Sourav ===================================================== sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Visti and Sourav,> > My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference> between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the> 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The> speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It> is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not> elaborating on this further.> > Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us> strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. > > A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the> shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation> and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini has been> ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have> our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly> intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for> correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right> tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives> the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and> reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only> does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that> there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to> discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing> personality labelling. That shows immaturity. > > Person A Navamsha> Mercury Atmakaraka> > Scorpio rising> Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd.> Venus in the 5th.> Mars in the 8th.> Ketu in the 9th> Moon in the 10th.> Mercury in the 11th.> Saturn in the 12th.> > Person B Navamsha> Rahu Atmakaraka> > Sagittarius rising.> Venus in the 2nd.> Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th.> Mars in the 7th.> Moon and Sun in the 10th> Rahu in the 11th.> > > > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Visti-ji, the> final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's> ideas. Let me reiterate two things:> > (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she> said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house> to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it> portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps> a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji> will help me and others.> > (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary> but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks> up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I> may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care> much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is> here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very> difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my> understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make> dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread.> > Best wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> ================> sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" visti@s... wrote:> >> > ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > > > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > > > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> > Maharishi Parasara:> > > > > > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > > > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > > > Subsequently he says; > > > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > > > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> > karakamsa chapter.> > > > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the> form> > is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > ***> > > > Visti Larsen> > > > For services and articles visit: > > > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com>> > http://astrovisti.com> > > > ***> > > > _____ > > > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > > 06 December 2005 17:04> > sohamsa > > RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should> approach> > the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> > spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> > causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> > from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> > Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> > Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> > original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> > the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> > questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> > equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> > in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> > discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> > translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > > > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is> that> > there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> > interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> > of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> > that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways.> This> > is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics,> which> > changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> > are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> > sohamsa > > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > > > > > Namaskar,> > > > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> > Sampradaya:> > > > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> > of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> > power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot> not> > in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> > Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions> (Pancha-Bheda),> > viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> > distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> > individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> > another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> > Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > > > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> > this form ?"> > > > > > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation> > is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > > > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and> like> > Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> > and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> > comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate> this> > concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> > (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> > Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> > are free to choose your ideas.> > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> > Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> > avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > Sourav> > > >> ============================================================================> > =============> > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sourav,> > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > > > Regards> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > - > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> > outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya> rupa,> > for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater> or> > lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> > in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some> people> > this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until> the> > screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> > perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> > Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> > beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> > all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> > portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> > Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color> > but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> > approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety.> We> > were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> > equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist.> Just> > like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> > color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from> day> > to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> > attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a> moment.> > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > - Sourav> > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > > >> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> > attraction/inclination> > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> > first> > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> > charts> > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> > the> > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine> the> > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> > different> > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> > from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva,> and> > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> > achieved> > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> > Ketu> > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under> no> > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form> of> > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the> planet> > in> > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should> desire> > most> > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > > sohamsa > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do> not> > > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you> are> > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> > Chandra> > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> > (if> > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman.> The> > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > Nitin,> > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > > sohamsa > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > > > >--> > > > > > > > >> > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > >> > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > > >> > > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment> of> > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> > highest> > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> > which> > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > >> > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > > >> > > > >Or> > > > >> > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect> of> > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > > >> > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> > Ishtaamsa ?)> > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and> ownership> > of> > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > > >> > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing> to> > the> > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> > worships> > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> > desire> > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> > Thus> > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> > importantly> > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > > >> > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> > the> > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> > place> > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> > repose/refuge.> > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> > not.> > > > >> > > > >Best wishes,> > > > >> > > > >Sourav> > > > >> > > >> >> >===========================================================================> > > > =================> > > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > > >>> > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > >> > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> > could> > > > be considered speculative.> > > > >> > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack> of> > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > >> > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> > guidance> > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > > >> > > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > > >> > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may> speak> > to a> > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > > bodies. > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach> Boys"> > was> > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> > authored> > > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > > >> > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> > with> > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > > >> > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > >> Nitin.> > > > >> > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> --> > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > > >> sohamsa > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > > >> > > > > >> >--> > > > >> > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > > >> >> > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> > Ak> > > > can> > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can> gives> > > > worship> > > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish> Digest)> > > > Note> > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> > desires> > > > of> > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> > Devata.> > > > 12th> > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some> Ishta> > > > follows> > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> > 12th> > > > Ak> > > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we> just> > make> > > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Warm Regards> > > > >> >Sanjay P> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 ||Hare Rama Krsna|| Dear List, Namaskar Enough already, neither of you have given us an answer yet, and are making each other into kshudra devatas. Here are 2 charts fulfilling the dictum of Jaimini. This native was subject to abhicara and has lost their mental balance to an extent alike Scizophrenia. The person was interested in mantra and tantra, but i do not know how they approached this. Natal Chart January 3, 1975 Time: 11:43:00 Time Zone: 0:00:00 (West of GMT) Place: 0 W 07' 00 " , 51 N 30' 00 " London, United Kingdom Atmakaraka is Mercury. Navamsa D-9 +--------------+ | \ / \ Ma Ve / | | \ Md / \ Mo / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | |GL \ / \ / | |Ju SaR x As x Me | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / HL \ 11 / \ | | / \ / \ | | Ke x Ra | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | |AL x x Gk | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / Su \ | | / \ / \ | +--------------+ Adolph Hitler was known to have worshipped the War God, Tula. This must be a Kshudra devata? The dictum is fulfilled, being that the ishta devata is Venus and is joined Mars and Ketu in a malefic sign, as well as aspected by Saturn. Interestingly he also lost his mental balance. Hitler, Adolph Natal Chart April 20, 1889 Time: 18:24:00 Time Zone: 0:52:00 (East of GMT) Place: 13 E 02' 00 " , 48 N 15' 00 " Navamsa D-9 +--------------+ | \ VeR Ke / \ / | | \ Ma / \ Md / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | |AL x As x Ju Mo | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ 7 / \ | | / \ / \ | | Sa x | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / Gk | | x x HL Su | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / Me \ | | / \ / Ra GL \ | +--------------+ Best wishes, *** Visti Larsen For services and articles visit: http://srigaruda.com or http://astrovisti.com *** Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani] 07 December 2005 17:14 sohamsa RE: Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Sourav, Then there is no point in talking is there? Incidentally, I never thought we were at loggerheads. But yes I found you vehemently antagonistic although you speak politely. Now that I know the reason why, I feel more relaxed about it. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:15 PM sohamsa Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. It seems ( may be wrongly) that you are having problems with whatever I am saying. Hence I get these kind of replies. You are most welcome to hold on to your view about learning. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and > reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only > does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that > there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to > discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing > personality labelling. That shows immaturity. I wasn't talkng about 90% of the list. I interact with very few people and hence I dont know how all astrology students learn. I personally dont give premium on " collegiate " way of learning as you have put it: learning through discussion and understanding each others views of the world. Infact, I think I really don't need to understand other's views too much ( mark " too much " ). It is a confusing process for me to graft other's views with my own views. I try to listen to the guru's advice and the best gurus I find are : Time and my own Mind (intuition), beyond both Mother is standing. If it makes me immature or narrow minded in other's view, I cannot help. Not all of Mother's children are of the same age. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly > intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for > correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right > tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives > the correct intuitions. About intuition, there is no correct or wrong. I use to understand principles right from the root. Sometimes the results I see don't match up with the reality but I don't stop using my intuitive understanding. Application of intuitive learning and memory-based learning is a highly complex process. Guess work is not the same as intuition. Guess work is as good as playing a slot machine, whereas intuition is an inner prodding that pushes oneself in a particular direction. Intuition is a faculty of going beyond facts and realities of this present life. May be it is coming from past life experiences, who knows? Or may be Mother has give this faculty to each one of us and some of us do not rely on it extensively and hence the sense of possessing intuition is not developed in some of us ('us' means in general, and not this list's populace), just like the sense of smell of hearing compared to hunting animals. What we have or can have or will have, we already have. Mantra is an euphemism for saying " I have it, I have it " . Thats all. " Mananat trayatey iti mantrah " .The mind doesnt know what itself is in possession of. Hence Mantra is to push the mind towards that belief. Thus uttering a mantra doesn't make intuition correct. It's already there latent. Anyway we two have distinct ideas of growth and learning processes. It serves no good cause to put them at loggerheads any more time. Can you kindly explain your understanding on the two quoted charts ? I request you. I will not take up any more discussions on this thread but will definitely read. Best wishes, Sourav ===================================================== sohamsa , " Sarbani Sarkar " <sarbani@s...> wrote: > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami > > Dear Visti and Sourav, > > My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference > between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the > 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The > speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It > is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not > elaborating on this further. > > Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us > strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. > > A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the > shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation > and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini has been > ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have > our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly > intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for > correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right > tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives > the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and > reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only > does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that > there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to > discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing > personality labelling. That shows immaturity. > > Person A Navamsha > Mercury Atmakaraka > > Scorpio rising > Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd. > Venus in the 5th. > Mars in the 8th. > Ketu in the 9th > Moon in the 10th. > Mercury in the 11th. > Saturn in the 12th. > > Person B Navamsha > Rahu Atmakaraka > > Sagittarius rising. > Venus in the 2nd. > Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th. > Mars in the 7th. > Moon and Sun in the 10th > Rahu in the 11th. > > > > > Best Regards, > > Sarbani > > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PM > sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji, > > Namaskar. Visti-ji, the > final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's > ideas. Let me reiterate two things: > > (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she > said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house > to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it > portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps > a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji > will help me and others. > > (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary > but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks > up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I > may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care > much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is > here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very > difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my > understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make > dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread. > > Best wishes, > > Sourav > > ============================================================================ > ================ > sohamsa , " Visti Larsen " visti@s... wrote: > > > > ||Hare Rama Krsna|| > > > > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar > > > > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from > > Maharishi Parasara: > > > > > > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet. > > > > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH.. > > > > Subsequently he says; > > > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH. > > > > > > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the > > karakamsa chapter. > > > > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the > form > > is of a kShudra roopa. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > *** > > > > Visti Larsen > > > > For services and articles visit: > > > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com> > > http://astrovisti.com > > > > *** > > > > _____ > > > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > > 06 December 2005 17:04 > > sohamsa > > RE: Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should > approach > > the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the > > spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is > > causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem > > from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by > > Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to > > Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the > > original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from > > the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not > > questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as > > equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier > > in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the > > discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those > > translations to you in private and off-list at a later date. > > > > > > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is > that > > there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very > > interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels > > of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see > > that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. > This > > is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, > which > > changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we > > are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > Sarbani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM > > sohamsa > > Re: Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II > > > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani, > > > > > > > > Namaskar, > > > > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva > > Sampradaya: > > > > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part > > of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal > > power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot > not > > in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya. > > > > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an > > Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions > (Pancha-Bheda), > > viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the > > distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the > > individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and > > another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another. > > Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji, > > > > > > > > " We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond > > this form ? " > > > > > > > > " God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this > equation > > is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. " > > > > > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and > like > > Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only, > > and " we are D-24 not D-20 " (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel > > comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate > this > > concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM > > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita > > (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch > > Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you > > are free to choose your ideas. > > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or > > Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is > > avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Sourav > > > > > ============================================================================ > > ============= > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " starsuponme@w... wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sourav, > > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition? > > > > > > Regards > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > - > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " - > > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji, > > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house > matters > > in > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in > > the > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from > > the > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant > > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the > > outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya > rupa, > > for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater > or > > lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole > > in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some > people > > this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until > the > > screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can > > perceive God. We say " He! Krishna ! He! Krishna " How much do we know real > > Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see > > beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing > > all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible > > portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. > > Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no > color > > but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the > > approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. > We > > were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind. > > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this > > equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. > Just > > like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my > > color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from > day > > to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This > > attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level. > > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a > moment. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > - Sourav > > > > > > ===================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Sarbani Sarkar " sarbani@s... wrote: > > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami > > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP, > > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the > > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the > > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has > > attraction/inclination > > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be > > first > > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the > > charts > > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for > > the > > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine > the > > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly > > different > > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th > > from > > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house > matters > > in > > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in > > the > > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from > > the > > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha > > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, > and > > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is > > achieved > > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are > > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya > > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa > > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and > > Ketu > > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under > no > > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form > of > > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the > planet > > in > > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the > > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should > desire > > most > > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is > > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > Sarbani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM > > > > sohamsa > > > > Re: Trying to understand " Ishta " for those who do > not > > > > worship in particular forms.... > > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar... > > > > > > > > Let's not use " Ishtaamsa, " though it is understood what position you > are > > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?] > > > > > > > > " Jivan Muktaamsa " perhaps would be better as it is referred to in > > Chandra > > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity > > (if > > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in > > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. > The > > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Nitin, > > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya || > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Original Message - > > > > " Sourav Chowdhury " souravc108 > > > > sohamsa > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000 > > > > > > > > >---------- Original Message - > > > > > > > > > > > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna || > > > > > > > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji, > > > > > > > > > > namaskar. Both of you > > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment > of > > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various > > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the > > highest > > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of > > which > > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > > > > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities > > > > > > > > > >Or > > > > > > > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect > of > > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity. > > > > > > > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this > > Ishtaamsa ?) > > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more > > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and > ownership > > of > > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding. > > > > > > > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha > > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing > to > > the > > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons > > worships > > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in > > desire > > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) > > Thus > > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more > > importantly > > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa. > > > > > > > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in > > the > > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the > > place > > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik > > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the > > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this > > repose/refuge. > > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or > > not. > > > > > > > > > >Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > >Sourav > > > > > > > > > > > > >=========================================================================== > > > > ================= > > > > >sohamsa , " Nitin K " sjc@j... wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru ||| > > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > >> > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and > > could > > > > be considered speculative. > > > > >> > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or > > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack > of > > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > >> > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for > > guidance > > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed... > > > > >> > > > > >> Use the elements and nature. > > > > >> > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may > speak > > to a > > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water > > > > bodies. > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from " The Beach > Boys " > > was > > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and > > authored > > > > many songs about the beach, etc.] > > > > >> > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him > > with > > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > >> Nitin. > > > > >> > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya || > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ---------- Original Message - > > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g... > > > > >> sohamsa > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500 > > > > >> > > > > >> >---------- Original Message - > > > > >> > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah || > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Dear Sonali, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we > > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from > > Ak > > > > can > > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here). > > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can > gives > > > > worship > > > > >> >of of lower dieties too. > > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish > Digest) > > > > Note > > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the > > desires > > > > of > > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta > > Devata. > > > > 12th > > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some > Ishta > > > > follows > > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to > > 12th > > > > Ak > > > > >> >and give the person " a purpose " . But proper worship I think we > just > > make > > > > >> >sure we are in the right path. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Warm Regards > > > > >> >Sanjay P > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________ > > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Hi Sanjayp, See the first example. Forget whose chart it is. It has benefic Moon as the ishta planet in a satwik sign. Now according to one school of thought the benefic in a satwik sign should show a higher level of spiritual evolution and hence a higher devata. According to another school, which I have been taught by my jyotish guru, Moon is what he 'ought' to worship as ishta devata. In all probability, I would assume that's what he did. You have also said the same. Now what would you say if told you that the person worshipped spirits and kshudra devatas of all forms to such an extent he became a powerful kingmaker masterminding political murders and hobnobbing with arms dealers? Personally I don't think that is ishta devata worship. Now, check the trines from karakamsha. Guru Chandala in Capricorn and that Jupiter is debilitated in rashi and navamsha. In the rashi Venus is in the 5th house in the sign of Scorpio aspected by Mars. He was at that level of dark worship. He never reached the level of purity of Gouri that the Moon in the 12th from his Karakamsha is representing. If I were his astrologer, I would have prescribed Moon ishta mantras to him, to get him out of the darkness of tamasik worship, so that he could view the Mother in all her purity. I feel if he had worshipped the Moon as ishta, that is if he understood what ishta meant, he would not have gone down the dark path. Obviously he was not spiritually at that level. But if you see the 12th house from his karakamsha you would not know that. The second example is indeed that of Srila Prabhupada. Here too the Moon is in a satvik sign. Although there are malefics in karakamsha trines, there is the benefic aspect of the Moon. In the rashi too, his 5th lord is conjoined an exalted Moon. And of course there are so many other indications of a high level of spirituality in the rashi and other divisions, which you know all about. So both had Moon in the 12th from karakamsha. In fact, the first one had it in a satvik sign! Yet the results were different. So you cannot really see the stage of evolution very definitely from the 12th house can you? For otherwise, what would be the difference between this house and other houses where we see spirituality? Nothing. Can you really accept that after all that we have been taught? I have been taught (and I state this as Sourav said only Guru's words are sacrosanct), that the 12th house is the paramam padam. And it is our duty as astrologers to push the jataka in that direction, if has not already gone there of his own accord. Check Thakur's navamsha as well. Best Regards, Sarbani Sanjay Prabhakaran [sanjaychettiar] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:23 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Om Gurave Namah ||Dear Sarabani ji, The first chart is of tantric? and the second is of Srila Prabhupada. The 12th from Ak in Srila's chart indicated by both Sun and Moon. Both Rama and Krishna. Hence his mantra contained both Rama and Krishna. The first chart I think is worshipper of Mother form.Warm RegardsSanjay P On 12/6/05, Sarbani Sarkar <sarbani wrote: Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Visti and Sourav, My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not elaborating on this further. Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini ) has been ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing personality labelling. That shows immaturity. Person A Navamsha Mercury Atmakaraka Scorpio rising Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd. Venus in the 5th. Mars in the 8th. Ketu in the 9th Moon in the 10th. Mercury in the 11th. Saturn in the 12th. Person B Navamsha Rahu Atmakaraka Sagittarius rising. Venus in the 2nd. Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th. Mars in the 7th. Moon and Sun in the 10th Rahu in the 11th. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PMsohamsa Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. Visti-ji, the final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's ideas. Let me reiterate two things: (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji will help me and others. (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread. Best wishes, Sourav ============================================================================================sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" <visti@s...> wrote:>> ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> Maharishi Parasara:> > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > Subsequently he says; > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> karakamsa chapter.> > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the form> is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > Best wishes,> > ***> > Visti Larsen> > For services and articles visit: > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or < http://astrovisti.com>> http://astrovisti.com> > ***> > _____ > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > 06 December 2005 17:04> sohamsa > RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should approach> the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is that> there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways. This> is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics, which> changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> sohamsa > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > Namaskar,> > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> Sampradaya:> > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot not> in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions (Pancha-Bheda),> viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> this form ?"> > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation> is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and like> Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate this> concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Rafal,> > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> are free to choose your ideas.> > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > Best Wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> =============> > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> >> > Dear Sourav,> > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > - > > Sourav Chowdhury > > sohamsa > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa,> for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or> lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people> this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the> screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color> but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We> were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just> like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day> to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > - Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > >> > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> first> > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> charts> > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> the> > > native or not. > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> different> > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> achieved> > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu> > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet> in> > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> most> > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > sohamsa > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> Chandra> > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> (if> > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > Best wishes,> > > Nitin,> > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > sohamsa > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > >--> > > > > > >> > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > >> > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > >> > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> highest> > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> which> > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > >> > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > >> > > >Or> > > >> > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > >> > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> Ishtaamsa ?)> > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership> of> > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > >> > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> the> > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> worships> > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> desire> > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> Thus> > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > >> > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> the> > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> place> > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> not.> > > >> > > >Best wishes,> > > >> > > >Sourav> > > >> > >> >===========================================================================> > > =================> > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > >>> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > >> > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > >> > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> could> > > be considered speculative.> > > >> > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > > divinity or spirituality. > > > >> > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> guidance> > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > >> > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > >> > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak> to a> > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > bodies. > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys"> was> > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> authored> > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > >> > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> with> > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > >> > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > >> > > > >> Best wishes, > > > >> Nitin.> > > >> > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --> > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > >> sohamsa > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > >> > > > >> >--> > > >> > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > >> >> > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > >> >> > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > >> >> > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> Ak> > > can> > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > > worship> > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > > Note> > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > >> >> > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> desires> > > of> > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> Devata.> > > 12th> > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > > follows> > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> 12th> > > Ak> > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just> make> > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >Warm Regards> > > >> >Sanjay P> > > >> >> > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Visti, This is an unmoderated list unlike others! Best Regards, Sarbani Visti Larsen [visti] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:14 PMsohamsa Subject: RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- ||Hare Rama Krsna|| Dear List, Namaskar Enough already, neither of you have given us an answer yet, and are making each other into kshudra devatas. Here are 2 charts fulfilling the dictum of Jaimini. This native was subject to abhicara and has lost their mental balance to an extent alike Scizophrenia. The person was interested in mantra and tantra, but i do not know how they approached this. Natal Chart January 3, 1975 Time: 11:43:00 Time Zone: 0:00:00 (West of GMT) Place: 0 W 07' 00", 51 N 30' 00" London, United Kingdom Atmakaraka is Mercury. Navamsa D-9 +--------------+ | \ / \ Ma Ve / | | \ Md / \ Mo / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | |GL \ / \ / | |Ju SaR x As x Me | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / HL \ 11 / \ | | / \ / \ | | Ke x Ra | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | |AL x x Gk | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / Su \ | | / \ / \ | +--------------+ Adolph Hitler was known to have worshipped the War God, Tula. This must be a Kshudra devata? The dictum is fulfilled, being that the ishta devata is Venus and is joined Mars and Ketu in a malefic sign, as well as aspected by Saturn. Interestingly he also lost his mental balance. Hitler, Adolph Natal Chart April 20, 1889 Time: 18:24:00 Time Zone: 0:52:00 (East of GMT) Place: 13 E 02' 00", 48 N 15' 00" Navamsa D-9 +--------------+ | \ VeR Ke / \ / | | \ Ma / \ Md / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | |AL x As x Ju Mo | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ 7 / \ | | / \ / \ | | Sa x | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / | | \ / \ / Gk | | x x HL Su | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / Me \ | | / \ / Ra GL \ | +--------------+ Best wishes, *** Visti Larsen For services and articles visit: http://srigaruda.com or http://astrovisti.com *** Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani] 07 December 2005 17:14sohamsa Subject: RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Sourav, Then there is no point in talking is there? Incidentally, I never thought we were at loggerheads. But yes I found you vehemently antagonistic although you speak politely. Now that I know the reason why, I feel more relaxed about it. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:15 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. It seems ( may be wrongly) that you are having problems with whatever I am saying. Hence I get these kind of replies. You are most welcome to hold on to your view about learning. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and> reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only> does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that> there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to> discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing> personality labelling. That shows immaturity. I wasn't talkng about 90% of the list. I interact with very few people and hence I dont know how all astrology students learn. I personally dont give premium on "collegiate" way of learning as you have put it: learning through discussion and understanding each others views of the world. Infact, I think I really don't need to understand other's views too much ( mark "too much"). It is a confusing process for me to graft other's views with my own views. I try to listen to the guru's advice and the best gurus I find are : Time and my own Mind (intuition), beyond both Mother is standing. If it makes me immature or narrow minded in other's view, I cannot help. Not all of Mother's children are of the same age. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly> intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for> correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right> tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives> the correct intuitions. About intuition, there is no correct or wrong. I use to understand principles right from the root. Sometimes the results I see don't match up with the reality but I don't stop using my intuitive understanding. Application of intuitive learning and memory-based learning is a highly complex process. Guess work is not the same as intuition. Guess work is as good as playing a slot machine, whereas intuition is an inner prodding that pushes oneself in a particular direction. Intuition is a faculty of going beyond facts and realities of this present life. May be it is coming from past life experiences, who knows? Or may be Mother has give this faculty to each one of us and some of us do not rely on it extensively and hence the sense of possessing intuition is not developed in some of us ('us' means in general, and not this list's populace), just like the sense of smell of hearing compared to hunting animals. What we have or can have or will have, we already have. Mantra is an euphemism for saying " I have it, I have it ". Thats all. "Mananat trayatey iti mantrah".The mind doesnt know what itself is in possession of. Hence Mantra is to push the mind towards that belief. Thus uttering a mantra doesn't make intuition correct. It's already there latent. Anyway we two have distinct ideas of growth and learning processes. It serves no good cause to put them at loggerheads any more time. Can you kindly explain your understanding on the two quoted charts ? I request you. I will not take up any more discussions on this thread but will definitely read. Best wishes, Sourav ===================================================== sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Visti and Sourav,> > My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference> between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the> 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The> speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It> is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not> elaborating on this further.> > Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us> strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. > > A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the> shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation> and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini has been> ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have> our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly> intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for> correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right> tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives> the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and> reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only> does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that> there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to> discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing> personality labelling. That shows immaturity. > > Person A Navamsha> Mercury Atmakaraka> > Scorpio rising> Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd.> Venus in the 5th.> Mars in the 8th.> Ketu in the 9th> Moon in the 10th.> Mercury in the 11th.> Saturn in the 12th.> > Person B Navamsha> Rahu Atmakaraka> > Sagittarius rising.> Venus in the 2nd.> Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th.> Mars in the 7th.> Moon and Sun in the 10th> Rahu in the 11th.> > > > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Visti-ji, the> final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's> ideas. Let me reiterate two things:> > (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she> said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house> to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it> portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps> a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji> will help me and others.> > (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary> but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks> up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I> may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care> much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is> here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very> difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my> understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make> dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread.> > Best wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> ================> sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" visti@s... wrote:> >> > ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > > > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > > > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> > Maharishi Parasara:> > > > > > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > > > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > > > Subsequently he says; > > > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > > > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> > karakamsa chapter.> > > > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the> form> > is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > ***> > > > Visti Larsen> > > > For services and articles visit: > > > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com>> > http://astrovisti.com> > > > ***> > > > _____ > > > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > > 06 December 2005 17:04> > sohamsa > > RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should> approach> > the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> > spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> > causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> > from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> > Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> > Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> > original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> > the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> > questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> > equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> > in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> > discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> > translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > > > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is> that> > there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> > interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> > of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> > that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways.> This> > is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics,> which> > changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> > are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> > sohamsa > > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > > > > > Namaskar,> > > > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> > Sampradaya:> > > > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> > of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> > power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot> not> > in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> > Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions> (Pancha-Bheda),> > viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> > distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> > individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> > another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> > Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > > > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> > this form ?"> > > > > > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation> > is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > > > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and> like> > Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> > and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> > comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate> this> > concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> > (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> > Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> > are free to choose your ideas.> > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> > Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> > avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > Sourav> > > >> ============================================================================> > =============> > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sourav,> > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > > > Regards> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > - > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> > outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya> rupa,> > for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater> or> > lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> > in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some> people> > this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until> the> > screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> > perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> > Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> > beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> > all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> > portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> > Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color> > but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> > approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety.> We> > were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> > equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist.> Just> > like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> > color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from> day> > to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> > attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a> moment.> > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > - Sourav> > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > > >> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> > attraction/inclination> > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> > first> > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> > charts> > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> > the> > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine> the> > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> > different> > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> > from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva,> and> > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> > achieved> > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> > Ketu> > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under> no> > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form> of> > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the> planet> > in> > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should> desire> > most> > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > > sohamsa > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do> not> > > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you> are> > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> > Chandra> > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> > (if> > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman.> The> > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > Nitin,> > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > > sohamsa > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > > > >--> > > > > > > > >> > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > >> > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > > >> > > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment> of> > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> > highest> > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> > which> > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > >> > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > > >> > > > >Or> > > > >> > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect> of> > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > > >> > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> > Ishtaamsa ?)> > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and> ownership> > of> > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > > >> > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing> to> > the> > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> > worships> > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> > desire> > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> > Thus> > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> > importantly> > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > > >> > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> > the> > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> > place> > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> > repose/refuge.> > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> > not.> > > > >> > > > >Best wishes,> > > > >> > > > >Sourav> > > > >> > > >> >> >===========================================================================> > > > =================> > > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > > >>> > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > >> > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> > could> > > > be considered speculative.> > > > >> > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack> of> > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > >> > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> > guidance> > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > > >> > > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > > >> > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may> speak> > to a> > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > > bodies. > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach> Boys"> > was> > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> > authored> > > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > > >> > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> > with> > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > > >> > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > >> Nitin.> > > > >> > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> --> > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > > >> sohamsa > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > > >> > > > > >> >--> > > > >> > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > > >> >> > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> > Ak> > > > can> > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can> gives> > > > worship> > > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish> Digest)> > > > Note> > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> > desires> > > > of> > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> > Devata.> > > > 12th> > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some> Ishta> > > > follows> > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> > 12th> > > > Ak> > > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we> just> > make> > > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Warm Regards> > > > >> >Sanjay P> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Tijana, Parasara and Jaimini have both stated clearly, that 2 or more malefics in the trines from Karakamsha (not navamsha lagna) will show the adeptness of a person in mantras and yantras. If there is a benefic aspect on these malefics, then the person will not misuse those skills, rather he will put them to good use. If there are malefic aspects on those planets then he will misuse those skills. Sorry for this hurried reply as I am travelling today. I will answer in more detail after a few days. Best Regards, Sarbani tijanadamjanovic [tijanadamjanovic] Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:13 AMsohamsa Subject: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- Om Gurave NamahDear Sarbani, namaskar.I appreciate very much this mail of Yours that brought the final clearness to the topic. I have some thinkings related to the chart A and questions, too.Should we consider Surya here as a malefic, because if so, we are talking about a mantrika? Because of Chandala yoga we assume that person was using his mistic powers in very bad way, causing even death. But here is a dristi of a strong Shukra that is also in trines to navams lagna, so the actions of the person couldn't be completely bad? Also, Ch dristi that You've mentioned.How to judge the influence of benefics on karakamsa trines? Can we say that ONLY security in resisting malefic influences will be dristi of Ista Devata itself ( if person is spiritully mature to adore It, as in case of Srila Prabhupada)?Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Hi Sanjayp,> > See the first example. Forget whose chart it is. It has benefic Moon as the> ishta planet in a satwik sign. Now according to one school of thought the> benefic in a satwik sign should show a higher level of spiritual evolution> and hence a higher devata. According to another school, which I have been> taught by my jyotish guru, Moon is what he 'ought' to worship as ishta> devata. In all probability, I would assume that's what he did. You have also> said the same. Now what would you say if told you that the person worshipped> spirits and kshudra devatas of all forms to such an extent he became a> powerful kingmaker masterminding political murders and hobnobbing with arms> dealers? Personally I don't think that is ishta devata worship. Now, check> the trines from karakamsha. Guru Chandala in Capricorn and that Jupiter is> debilitated in rashi and navamsha. In the rashi Venus is in the 5th house in> the sign of Scorpio aspected by Mars. He was at that level of dark worship.> He never reached the level of purity of Gouri that the Moon in the 12th from> his Karakamsha is representing.> > If I were his astrologer, I would have prescribed Moon ishta mantras to him,> to get him out of the darkness of tamasik worship, so that he could view the> Mother in all her purity. I feel if he had worshipped the Moon as ishta,> that is if he understood what ishta meant, he would not have gone down the> dark path. Obviously he was not spiritually at that level. But if you see> the 12th house from his karakamsha you would not know that.> > The second example is indeed that of Srila Prabhupada. Here too the Moon is> in a satvik sign. Although there are malefics in karakamsha trines, there is> the benefic aspect of the Moon. In the rashi too, his 5th lord is conjoined> an exalted Moon. And of course there are so many other indications of a high> level of spirituality in the rashi and other divisions, which you know all> about.> > So both had Moon in the 12th from karakamsha. In fact, the first one had it> in a satvik sign! Yet the results were different. So you cannot really see> the stage of evolution very definitely from the 12th house can you? For> otherwise, what would be the difference between this house and other houses> where we see spirituality? Nothing. Can you really accept that after all> that we have been taught? I have been taught (and I state this as Sourav> said only Guru's words are sacrosanct), that the 12th house is the paramam> padam. And it is our duty as astrologers to push the jataka in that> direction, if has not already gone there of his own accord.> > Check Thakur's navamsha as well. > > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sanjay Prabhakaran [sanjaychettiar@g...] > Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:23 PM> sohamsa > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > || Om Gurave Namah ||> Dear Sarabani ji,> The first chart is of tantric? and the second is of Srila Prabhupada.> The 12th from Ak in Srila's chart indicated by both Sun and Moon. Both Rama> and Krishna. Hence his mantra contained both Rama and Krishna.> The first chart I think is worshipper of Mother form.> Warm Regards> Sanjay P> > > > On 12/6/05, Sarbani Sarkar <sarbani@s...> wrote: > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Visti and Sourav,> > My difference is that with this interpretation, there is no difference> between seeing one's spiritual evolution/inclination for the moment from the> 12th house of karakamsha and from any other chart in the system. The> speciality of the 12th house of Karakamsha, as we have learnt it is lost. It> is then like any other house for judging a person's evolution. I am not> elaborating on this further.> > Sourav, I am giving the details of two person's navamshas below. Let us> strictly only apply the 12th house from karakamsha principles here. > > A couple of points for you: We have been taught to emphasise more on the> shastras and not on our intuition while we are learning. The interpretation> and specially the 'unsaid' in shastras (particularly Jaimini ) has been> ingrained in us during this process. Being in occult studies all of us have> our intuitions. I think about 90% people on this list must be highly> intuitive. This intuition is used by us anyway when we interpret charts, for> correct intuition helps us to make the right decisions and choose the right> tools for analysis. One can go beyond and say that the right mantras gives> the correct intuitions. Also, a huge part of learning is discussions and> reflections with each other. That is the essence of any collegiate. Not only> does this make us grow and learn from each other but it makes us learn that> there are different ways of looking at the universe. The second thing is to> discuss different schools of thought dispassionately without doing> personality labelling. That shows immaturity. > > Person A Navamsha> Mercury Atmakaraka> > Scorpio rising> Rahu, Sun, Jupiter in the 3rd.> Venus in the 5th.> Mars in the 8th.> Ketu in the 9th> Moon in the 10th.> Mercury in the 11th.> Saturn in the 12th.> > Person B Navamsha> Rahu Atmakaraka> > Sagittarius rising.> Venus in the 2nd.> Ketu, Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter in the 5th.> Mars in the 7th.> Moon and Sun in the 10th> Rahu in the 11th.> > > > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:48 PM> sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Visti-ji and Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Visti-ji, the> final gist is in the Message #2709. I have some difference with Sarbani-ji's> ideas. Let me reiterate two things:> > (a) I don't say Sarbani-ji is definitely wrong. I have doubts about what she> said hence I reserve my opinion that 12-th from Karakamsa is a potent house> to show the native's idea/outlook of worship and what aspect (call it> portion or characteristic) of the Full Divinity, native may worship. Perhaps> a detailed example (which exhibits some exceptional issues) from Sarbani-ji> will help me and others.> > (b) My understandings in jyotish (as also in spirituality) is rudimentary> but intuitive. I rely on my intuition and inborn cencepts. If someone picks> up a sloka from say, Kathopanishad, and challenges me on my understanding, I> may not be able to defend myself nor would I want to. I really do not care> much about so called pramana (scriptural) as I want to rely on Mother who is> here to teach me to Her full desire. Hence teaching me a new concept is very> difficult unless the teacher allows me space and time to absorb my> understanding. I hope I am understood in this regard. I do not need to make> dramatic debates hence I chose to withdraw from the thread.> > Best wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> ================> sohamsa , "Visti Larsen" <visti@s...> wrote:> >> > ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > > > Dear Sarbani and Sourav, Namaskar> > > > Did you conclude the discussion? How should i interpret this sloka from> > Maharishi Parasara:> > > > > > > > kaarakaa.mshad vyaye sauriH paaparaashau yadaa bhavet.> > > > tadaa.api kShudradevasya bhaktistasya na sa.mshayaH..> > > > Subsequently he says; > > > > paaparkShe.api shanau shukre tada.api kShudrasevakaH.> > > > > > > > You can copy the text into itrans if you prefer. It is sloka 73 of the> > karakamsa chapter.> > > > Note that Parasara has not talked about guna or anything. Just that the> form> > is of a kShudra roopa.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > ***> > > > Visti Larsen> > > > For services and articles visit: > > > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or < <http://astrovisti.com>> http://astrovisti.com>> > http://astrovisti.com> > > > ***> > > > _____ > > > > Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani@s...] > > 06 December 2005 17:04> > sohamsa > > RE: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > > > > > Sorry for this belated reply. I agree with you in that each should> approach> > the spiritual domain from his or her own perspective, more so as the> > spiritual life is the most private of all lives, as long as no one is> > causing harm to the other. Our differences in reading Chaitanya would stem> > from this different perspective as well. Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita by> > Krishnadas Govindaraj Goswami actually says something very similar to> > Sourav's quotes in your mail below. This text, which I can read in the> > original as I know the language, gives a interpretation which differs from> > the translations and commentary given by your sampradaya. Now, this is not> > questioning your sampradaya, but everybody on public lists are not as> > equanamous as you are. There were plenty of heated debates on this earlier> > in Varahamihira and Vedic-Astrology. I would not like to digress the> > discussion from jyotish, and maybe if you are interested, I can send those> > translations to you in private and off-list at a later date.> > > > > > > > Perspectives differ even within narrower windows. Whats interesting is> that> > there are so many multiple theories about perceiving ishta. That is very> > interesting. Then we boil down to shreya and preya. There are preya levels> > of ishta and that is which is at a shreya level. I was surprised to see> > that 3 astrologers read Jaimini in this regard in three different ways.> This> > is what the great French philosopher Ricouer had called Hermeneutics,> which> > changed the way scholars read and interpret classics. That shows where we> > are coming from, while accepting the plurality of truths. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Rafal Gendarz [starsuponme@w...] > > Sunday, December 04, 2005 5:14 PM> > sohamsa > > Re: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > II Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah II> > > > Dear Sourav, Sarbani,> > > > > > > > Namaskar,> > > > > > > > I trust and has belief at this view on this case, based on Brahma-Madhva> > Sampradaya:> > > > > > > > (1) Sri Caitanya Dvaita-Advaita corresponds to idea that the world is part> > of God as His bahiranga-sakti but not same as his atma-sakti (internal> > power). Second view is that Jiva is same to God in quailty (advaita) bot> not> > in quantity (dvaita)l. This is view of my sampradaya.> > > > > > > > Madhva's Vedanta is the doctrine of absolute differences. It is an> > Atyanta-Bheda-Darsana. He insists on five great distinctions> (Pancha-Bheda),> > viz., (i) the distinction between God and the individual soul, (ii) the> > distinction between God and matter, (iii) the distinction between the> > individual soul and matter, (iv) the distinction between one soul and> > another and (v) the distinction between one material thing and another.> > Madhva's philosophy is a philosophy of distinction. > > > > > > > > My question was responding to this two sentences from Sourav Ji,> > > > > > > > "We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond> > this form ?"> > > > > > > > "God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation> > is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. "> > > > > > > > > > > > which are opposite to Dvaita Philosophy of Vaishnavism. > > > > > > > > Therefore as we try to be liberal giving respect to other beliefs, and> like> > Sanjay Ji often said in Serbia that we Jyotisha's can be siksha-guru only,> > and "we are D-24 not D-20" (discussion with Zoran Ji) I would like to feel> > comfortable with my perspective. More to this I would like to translate> this> > concepts of Ishta-devata to my beliefs.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sourav <souravc108 Chowdhury > > > > sohamsa > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:32 PM> > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Namaskar. This is more close to Vishishtadvaita> > (Qualified Monism) which does not do away with plurality as does staunch> > Advaitabaad. I do not want to influence your conception of God. Hence you> > are free to choose your ideas.> > > > One idea to remember is that it is not known what Dvaitavaadi or> > Advaitavaadi feels at the end of journey. Atman as we try to call it is> > avangmanasagocharam (beyond the possibility of thought or expression). > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > Sourav> > > >> ============================================================================> > =============> > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" starsuponme@w... wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sourav,> > > > > > This is Advaita understanding. How about Dvaita tradition?> > > > > > Regards> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > - > > > Sourav Chowdhury > > > sohamsa > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:09 PM> > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> > outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya> rupa,> > for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater> or> > lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> > in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some> people> > this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until> the> > screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> > perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> > Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> > beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> > all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> > portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> > Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color> > but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> > approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety.> We> > were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> > equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist.> Just> > like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> > color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from> day> > to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> > attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a> moment.> > > > > > Best Wishes,> > > > > > - Sourav> > > > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > > >> > > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> > attraction/inclination> > > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> > first> > > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> > charts> > > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> > the> > > > native or not. > > > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine> the> > > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> > different> > > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> > from> > > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house> matters> > in> > > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> > the> > > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> > the> > > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva,> and> > > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> > achieved> > > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> > Ketu> > > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under> no> > > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form> of> > > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the> planet> > in> > > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should> desire> > most> > > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > > sohamsa > > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do> not> > > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you> are> > > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> > Chandra> > > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> > (if> > > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman.> The> > > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > Nitin,> > > > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > > sohamsa > > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > > > >--> > > > > > > > >> > > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > >> > > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > > >> > > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment> of> > > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> > highest> > > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> > which> > > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > > >> > > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > > >> > > > >Or> > > > >> > > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect> of> > > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > > >> > > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> > Ishtaamsa ?)> > > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and> ownership> > of> > > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > > >> > > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing> to> > the> > > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> > worships> > > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> > desire> > > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> > Thus> > > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> > importantly> > > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > > >> > > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> > the> > > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> > place> > > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> > repose/refuge.> > > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> > not.> > > > >> > > > >Best wishes,> > > > >> > > > >Sourav> > > > >> > > >> >> >===========================================================================> > > > =================> > > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > > >>> > > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > >> > > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > > >> > > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> > could> > > > be considered speculative.> > > > >> > > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack> of> > > > divinity or spirituality. > > > > >> > > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> > guidance> > > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > > >> > > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > > >> > > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may> speak> > to a> > > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > > bodies. > > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach> Boys"> > was> > > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> > authored> > > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > > >> > > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> > with> > > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > > >> > > > > >> Best wishes, > > > > >> Nitin.> > > > >> > > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> --> > > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > > >> sohamsa > > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > > >> > > > > >> >--> > > > >> > > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > > >> >> > > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> > Ak> > > > can> > > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can> gives> > > > worship> > > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish> Digest)> > > > Note> > > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> > desires> > > > of> > > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> > Devata.> > > > 12th> > > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some> Ishta> > > > follows> > > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> > 12th> > > > Ak> > > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we> just> > make> > > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Warm Regards> > > > >> >Sanjay P> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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