Guest guest Posted January 2, 2001 Report Share Posted January 2, 2001 ---------------------- Forwarded by Narasimha Rao/PicTel on 01/02/2001 04:22 PM --------------------------- Please respond to " Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Vedic Astrologer) (USA) " <Shyamasundara.ACBSP; Please respond to Vedic.Astrology; Please respond to Jyotish.Services " Vedic Astrology (Symposium hosted by Shyamasundara Das) " <Vedic.Astrology cc: " Narasimha Rao " <Narasimha_Rao, " Sanjay Rath " <srath, " Jyotish Services " <Jyotish.Services Dear Narasimha rao, Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Bhakta-vigna-vinasha Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya. > Namaste Shyamasundara Prabhu, > First of all my letter was not addressed to you but to Sanjay Rath Prabhu. Therefore I would prefer to get a response from him if you don't mind. I am still waiting for his response. However, since you are one of his senior students I will say a few words in response. I would also like to keep these discussions on a cordial level lest they deteriorate. > It is very clear that you are talking about the " limitations " of a > " system " that you do not understand well. I will make a couple of quick > comments before I sleep for today. Jaimini did not say that all the > conclusions must be drawn from rasi chart. In fact, he added a couple of > divisional charts to the ones taught by Parasara. It seems that you are misunderstanding me. I have read several works on Jaimini and am aware that he uses varga charts. Perhaps you were too fatigued to notice exactly what I was saying. And that was that the way Bhava Arudhas was being used to date, in the discussion of the Lagna debate, was not helpful in rectification. You, later in your response, say that Arudhas can also be used in Varga charts. To date in this debate over the Lagna I have not seen any text in which Arudhas were used in Varga charts. There may have been some but I did not see them. That being the case it is then up to advocates of these methods to use them adequately so as to properly present the system. But up to now they have been only using them from Rasi which makes it of limited value, just as using Ashtaka varga from rasi has limited value. Limited value does not mean NO value. Nor does it mean that I dismiss it. Identifying a limitation is not the same as dismissal. > > > On reading your statement above it struck me that certain prominent > > features > > of the sub-set of the Parasara system known as the Jaimini system are > > inherently limited in their use. They are not at all applicable to chart > > rectification and therefore to use them in chart rectification is > > meaningless. Here I am especially speaking about Bhava Arudhas and > > Varnada Lagna and to a lesser degree Naisargika and Chara Karakas as > > well as special > > Lagnas like Ghatika, Hora, Bhava etc. These are secondary methods useful > > in aiding chart analysis and prediction but incapable of being used in > > chart rectification. Let us for the time being forget about Srila > > Prabhupada's chart and just dwell on the theoretical basis of what we > > are dealing with here. The suitability of using Bhava Arudha for chart > > rectification. > > > > 1. We must first remember that Bhava Arudhas are not degree based but > > Rasi based like Astakavarga. > > However, there is nothing in the classics to say that bhava arudhas (and > ashtakavarga) should not be found for divisional charts. At this time I have no problem with this. But is that how they are doing the analysis with Arudhas? It seems to me to be strictly based on the Rasi chart. (I have seen articles on using Astakavarga in Shodasa Vargas. It doesn't seem to be a wildly popular idea, perhaps because it is very unwieldy and tedious to calculate. It may also be because not much new information is derived from it. The articles I read on it were not very convincing. Have you experimented with this?) > In fact, if > Parasara and Jaimini teach that one's religious activities are seen in > D-20 and later teach that mantra pada (arudha pada of 5th house) shows the > mantras practiced by one, they are in all likelihood speaking about mantra > pada in D-20. It seems that you are not certain of this and are speculating. From your previous statement (and my own reading) " However, there is nothing in the classics to say that bhava arudhas (and ashtakavarga) should not be found for divisional charts. " You confirm that the classics don't say that it should be done, only that they are silent about it. Does silence on it mean it is okay? I don't know. You also seem to be uncertain of this, yet you later say that it is a common practice at SJVC. As Varaha Mihira said " little is written but much is meant. " So perhaps this is a case where it can be extrapolated. But maybe not. I personally am not against such extensions of the system as long as they don't contradict basic axioms of the system. I know that some scholars are against using Dristhi in Varga charts whereas I use them all the time. > > We at SJVC use bhava arudhas in all varga chakras. If you do not have > enough time to read the relevant archives of vedic astrology list, > you should atleast read an extract from my book on bhava arudhas at As I said in this debate they seem to be using strictly from the Rasi. I have not noticed any mention of Bhavarudhas used by them in Varga charts. Why not then encourage them to do so instead of just using Rasis? > > http://www.geocities.com/pvr108/bookex1.htm > > You will understand the use of bhava arudhas better if you read this. > > Bhava arudha chakra of rasi chart may stay the same if the birthtime > changes a little, but bhava arudhas in divisional charts will change. It will be the same for the whole Lagna in Rasi chart not just small changes in birth time. > > Arudha means " risen one " . Arudhas are the ones that " rise " in the material > world. If we talk about one's happiness from vehicle or knowledge or > scholarship, they cannot be seen in the physical world. There are certain > material things that arise from them and THOSE risen things can be seen in > the material world. For example, one's car, one's school, one's awards, > one's degrees etc are things that can be seen in the material world. Based > on these (that can be seen in the material world), we judge one's > happiness from vehicles, knowledge, scholarship etc (that can NOT be seen > in the material world). Arudhas deal with these things. > > They apply to all the divisional charts. Now you are certain when before you were not, then it just seemed likely that he referred to mantrapada in a-20. This is where confusion is created. Please clarify this point. I am willing, at this time, to accept your conclusion in this matter since you have looked into it more deeply. Is it a certainty or is it a speculation? As I have maintained before in previous emails I am not against extensions of a system as long as they do not contradict basic axioms. > > > 2. It has been assumed by you and others that because 2 different lagnas > > have different configurations of Bhava Arudhas then this will be a > > useful tool in chart rectification to determine which would be the > > appropriate Lagna for a person for whom sufficient data was known. That > > if one set of Bhava Arudhas better explained (or helped in some way) > > then that Lagna should be accepted. This is misleading and not correct. > > Rather than changing > > Lagnas it would be sufficient, in many cases, to simply change the > > degree in > > the rising sign thus changing some significant patterns in the > > Shodasavargas. Thus the difference will be accounted for by > > Shodasavargas > > And, that would change the bhava arudhas in the relevant vargas. Yes I agree. So let them do that instead of just doing from the Rasi chart which seems to be what they have been doing most, if not all of the time in this debate. > > > which will be unique for every fraction of a degree in a Lagna. > > Researchers in Nadi literature are of the opinion that the Nadis rely > > heavily on the patterns of Shodasa Vargas. I have had several readings > > from the Nadis-Suka Nadi, Kala Candra Nadi and Bhrigu Samhita. I taped > > the readings. They relied > > on standard Parasara methods like Shodasa vargas not on the subset > > called Jaimini system. While on the topic of Nadis, the only Dasa system > > used by these Rishis was Vimshottari. I know that you support the > > preeminent position of Vimshottari Mahadasha but some others do not. > > > > 3. While every fraction of a degree in any one Lagna will give different > > patterns of Shodasavargas the pattern of the Bhava Arudhas will not > > change for the *whole* Lagna. > > Again, bhava arudhas are to be found in each varga. Again. > > > 4. It seems to be assumed, at some level, that everyone born on the same > > day > > with the same lagna will have the same life. Hence the need to change > > the Lagna in order to describe a different life. > > > > 5. But persons born on the same day with same lagna and same set of > > Bhava Arudhas (and Varnada Lagna) will not have the same life because > > they will have a different pattern of Shodasavargas. > > > > 6. Shodasavarga is like a finger print and is unique for each individual > > person, especially if we take Nadi Amsas, but Bhava Arudha like > > Astakavarga are generic for all persons born on the same day with the > > same Lagna. > > Again.... > Again... > > 7. Since some Jaimini methods like Bhava Arudha are generic they are not > > at > > First, don't call them " Jaimini methods " . Graha and bhava arudhas were > taught by Parasara maharshi in great detail. Please read BPHS. Arudhas are > a part of Parasara's teachings. > This is what I said at the beginning. Perhaps you were too tired to notice this. " of the sub-set of the Parasara system known as the Jaimini system " Since it is a sub-set of Parasara system that means it is part of Parasara system. I hope it is now clear. > Second, spend more time and try to understand something, before commenting > on it (let alone dismissing it). > I have not dismissed it, just as I have not dismissed Astakavarga. Please do not put words into my mouth. > > all appropriate for use in chart rectification hence no meaning can be > > attached to chart rectification arguments based on Bhava Arudha. This > > does not mean that generic methods like Astakavarga and Bhava Arudha > > have no utility, they do, but not in the context that you have been > > trying to use them in. > > > > Let me now demonstrate my point with some real life examples (which is > > very different from the " 20/20 vision " world of postmortem astrology). > > Below are > > the birth data of two sets of twins. The birth time was very accurately > > recorded. The Lagnas differ in one case by less than a degree. You will > > quickly see that the Astakavarga plus the various Jaimini methods of > > Bhava Arudhas, Chara karakas Varnada Lagna etc are identical for each > > set of twins. Special Lagnas like Hora, Bhava, and Ghatika will vary > > from each exactly as much as the Janma Lagnas do. The same goes for > > Prana Pada. Though > > the Bhava Arudhas etc are identical when looking at each set of twins > > they did not have the same lives rather they had some very remarkable > > differences. > > > > Sanjay Prabhu please tell me based on Jaimini system (padas etc) what is > > the > > difference in the lives of these two men? > > > > Male 1: > > July 11, 1953 @ 11:25 AM, CST, Houston, TX, 98W22, 29N46 > > > > Male 2: > > July 11, 1953 @ 11:28 AM, CST, Houston, TX, 98W22, 29N46 > > > > Sanjay Prabhu please tell me based on Jaimini system (padas etc) what is > > the > > difference in the lives of these two women? > > > > Woman 1: > > July 20, 1967, @ 11:45 AM, New Delhi, 77E12, 28N36 > > > > Woman 2: > > July 20, 1967, @ 11:55 AM, New Delhi, 77E12, 28N36 > > > > Sanjay Prabhu can you can explain to me the non-trivial differences in > > the lives of these people using Jaimini system as you were doing above > > in the case of Srila Prabhupada? I beg to remain... > > We had a twins puzzle on vedic astrology list today, in which somebody > posted the charts of twins with the same rasi and navamsa and asked us to > identify which one is autistic. I tried it. I had my share of twins > puzzles for today. I may try yours later. Do you want a hint? Anyway, it was not addressed to you but to Sanjay you don't have to try at all. > BTW, I haven't received any > feedback from you on the chart you gave earlier. That is because I have not downloaded any email until today. I will definitely read and give feedback. Thank you for your patience. > > In any case, I have no trouble at all when somebody points out the > importance of divisional charts. I myself am thoroughly convinced about > the importance of vargas. However, the problem is that you have a wrong > idea of Jaimini's teachings. If you disagree with Gauranga's anlysis, > please do so. But don't start criticizing " Jaimini system " and advanced > techniques that are anintegral part of the teachings of Parasara and > Jaimini. As I said: " of the sub-set of the Parasara system known as the Jaimini system " Second of all I limited my discussion to only certain methods specifically Bhava Arudhas, not the *whole* Jaimini system as you are accusing me of doing. And what was that criticism? That the way they were using it was not applicable to rectification. I think that you will agree that using Bhava Arudhas from Rasi for rectification does have serious limits. That was my point. Now you are saying that bhava Arudhas can be used in Vargas, but as far as I could notice it was being used primarily in Rasi not vargas. As I was writing the original text which you have responded to I was thinking that Bhavarudhas could be done on Vargas, but I had not seen it in any book on Jaimini including Sanjay's nor had it been used so far in this Lagna debate. But since you are saying that this is being done at SJVC (though you yourself don't seem to be 100% certain whether or not it is a valid method) then you should encourage them to use this more precise method. Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada Shyamasundara Dasa PS can someone forward these to the . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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