Guest guest Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Sourav, Please do not apologise. We are all here to discuss and reflect. Did you know that Socrates had started discussion groups for studying philosophy where he said teacher and student were at par, whether beginner or advanced. I believe there are no such philosophy discussion groups left anymore! Are you equating ugra/saumya rupa with the gunas? Kali may be ugra rupa but extremely satvik. Thakur worshipped Kali all his life and there is no denying the guna in him. So, are you talking about lesser deities whom most jyotish texts define as spirits, pretas, kinnaras etc.? I personally would not want to see them from the 12th house of karakamsha. Jaimini has given Vishnu, Skanda, Durga, Ganapati as the deities for Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu when placed in the 12th from the karakamsha. In addition he has said that when Saturn and Venus are placed in malefic signs will give the inclination for preta worship. So the person may be recommended Vishnu or Lakshmi as ishta devatas but the astrologer has to be careful that such a tendency may be there in the person. To determine how far that can fructify or manifest, you will have to check the trines to karakamsha, then the trines in rashi and finally in vimshamsha. And you have to see some other factors as well. I will see all these other factors and trines etc. for the lower level of worship. I will not see it in the 12th house from karakamsha. Maybe the person will shift from preta worship and find his ishta. 'Mara' can become 'Rama'. But all these other levels, inclinations, attractions etc. can be seen in other ways from the rashi, navamsh, vimshamsa, shashtiamsa like trimsamsa, shastiamsa etc. These are simple inclinations. The inclination, the yearning which if we are fortunate to experience, the way Thakur was for Kali, like a madness...that is different. That is the true 'desire' of the soul which Jaimini refers to. There are some points to be noted: 1. We may or may not be fortunate enough to find our ishta devata in this life time. We do not know how and when we may find him. 2. If we do find him/her, we may stumble to him after halting at many spots. 3. We may be apparently spiritually illiterate yet be so filled with satva guna that we we find our ishta at first shot, unknowingly. Both Thakur and Ma (Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Sarada Devi) have spoken about this many times in different ways: that when the ishta calls, and the satva guna is high, the person cannot stay away. He or she will get pulled and dragged by the ishta towards him. 4. We may be a zealous sadhaka doing nth rounds of malas a day, but so filled with rajasik or tamasik thoughts, that we may never even go anywhere near the ishta. This is an endless topic. We can go on. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:39 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"- || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Sarbani-ji, Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa, for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind. God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color, my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level. Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment. Best Wishes, - Sourav ===================================================== sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has attraction/inclination> towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> native or not. > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire most> is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> worship in particular forms....> > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> Kala Naadi. > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > Best wishes,> Nitin,> > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > --> "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> sohamsa > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > >--> > >> >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> >> >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> >> > namaskar. Both of you> have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the highest> loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > >> >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> >> >Or> >> >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> Him/Her and that forms our deity.> >> >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa ?)> can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> >> >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to the> same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons worships> the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in desire> of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.) Thus> we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> >> >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the place> of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this repose/refuge.> Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or not.> >> >Best wishes,> >> >Sourav> >> >===========================================================================> =================> >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> >>> >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> >> > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > >> > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and could> be considered speculative.> >> > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> divinity or spirituality. > >> > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for guidance> and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> >> > >> Use the elements and nature.> >> > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to a> person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> bodies. > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys" was> discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and authored> many songs about the beach, etc.]> >> > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him with> representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > >> > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> >> > >> Best wishes, > >> Nitin.> >> > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> >> > >> > >> > >> --> >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> >> sohamsa > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> >> > >> >--> >> > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> >> >> >> >Dear Sonali,> >> >> >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> >> >> >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> >> >> >> >> >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> can> >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> worship> >> >of of lower dieties too.> >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> Note> >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> >> >> >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the desires> of> >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta Devata.> 12th> >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> follows> >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> Ak> >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just make> >> >sure we are in the right path.> >> >> >> >> >> >Warm Regards> >> >Sanjay P> >> >> >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > ______________> Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna ||Dear Sarbani-ji, namaskar. You have written a lot of different concepts most of which I do not have first hand experience and hence attempting to talk about them would amount to mere repetition. So I will leave this thread with a little note.Who we want to worship ? Someone higher than us Or someone more powerful Or someone who has what we desire and can give us if pleased. Worship is a process of pleasing that entity. Worship rooted in desire just like any human action. And worship is part of maayaa.Why we want to worship ? Sometimes putting a finger on it is easy (e.g. intention for a child, or wealth or cure of disease etc) and sometimes difficult (we keep saying inner urge, overflowing satva guna etc, but that is very difficult to concretize). Jyotisha says : There is Atman and this urge is the inclination of Atman.Atman experiences pain/pleasure and thinks of seeking something in the world of maayaa. It may be inclined by dint of this urge but might seek the worshipping experience in the wrong place (kinnaras,pretas etc). Now this seeking or the nebulous concept of a higher person, if God and kinnara preta etc are those portions of God that the mind darkly veiled by maaya thinks to be. One by one veils fall off and darker worship, darker intentions dissolve away.I mentioned lesser aspect of Godhood and not lesser God. Hope it finally is clarified.Mother Kali is whatever you want her to be. If you play pranks she can be very rigid and scolding. Or else vara-abhaya. The first time one sees Kali one is afraid or disgusted (it is truth). Then later on Kali appears something different and becomes more benign. So if you say Kali is extremely satvik I have to wink at you (if you dont mind).OK. no more from me on this.Best wishes,Sourav=========================================================================================== sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Sourav,> > Please do not apologise. We are all here to discuss and reflect. Did you> know that Socrates had started discussion groups for studying philosophy> where he said teacher and student were at par, whether beginner or advanced.> I believe there are no such philosophy discussion groups left anymore!> > Are you equating ugra/saumya rupa with the gunas? Kali may be ugra rupa but> extremely satvik. Thakur worshipped Kali all his life and there is no> denying the guna in him. So, are you talking about lesser deities whom most> jyotish texts define as spirits, pretas, kinnaras etc.? I personally would> not want to see them from the 12th house of karakamsha. Jaimini has given> Vishnu, Skanda, Durga, Ganapati as the deities for Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu when placed in the 12th from the karakamsha. In addition he has said> that when Saturn and Venus are placed in malefic signs will give the> inclination for preta worship. So the person may be recommended Vishnu or> Lakshmi as ishta devatas but the astrologer has to be careful that such a> tendency may be there in the person. To determine how far that can fructify> or manifest, you will have to check the trines to karakamsha, then the> trines in rashi and finally in vimshamsha. And you have to see some other> factors as well. I will see all these other factors and trines etc. for the> lower level of worship. I will not see it in the 12th house from karakamsha.> Maybe the person will shift from preta worship and find his ishta. 'Mara'> can become 'Rama'. But all these other levels, inclinations, attractions> etc. can be seen in other ways from the rashi, navamsh, vimshamsa,> shashtiamsa like trimsamsa, shastiamsa etc. These are simple inclinations.> The inclination, the yearning which if we are fortunate to experience, the> way Thakur was for Kali, like a madness...that is different. That is the> true 'desire' of the soul which Jaimini refers to. > > There are some points to be noted:> > 1. We may or may not be fortunate enough to find our ishta devata in this> life time. We do not know how and when we may find him.> 2. If we do find him/her, we may stumble to him after halting at many spots.> 3. We may be apparently spiritually illiterate yet be so filled with satva> guna that we we find our ishta at first shot, unknowingly. Both Thakur and> Ma (Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Sarada Devi) have spoken about this many> times in different ways: that when the ishta calls, and the satva guna is> high, the person cannot stay away. He or she will get pulled and dragged by> the ishta towards him.> 4. We may be a zealous sadhaka doing nth rounds of malas a day, but so> filled with rajasik or tamasik thoughts, that we may never even go anywhere> near the ishta. > > This is an endless topic. We can go on.> > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:39 PM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa,> for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or> lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people> this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the> screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color> but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We> were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation> is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like> complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color,> my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to> day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa> ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> >> >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to> a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys"> was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just> make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Sourav, Yes I too find multiple concepts in what you write in each mail. You are quite slippery! We both our talking about the different levels of worship, which is signified by the gunas in a person. Depending on that, the Divine reveals itself to us. There is no confusion on that. What we are differing on is to how to see these levels in the chart. Also on how we perceive the 12th house from Karakamsha. Now thats a very big question! Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Saturday, December 03, 2005 10:25 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-Sourav || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Sarbani-ji, namaskar. You have written a lot of different concepts most of which I do not have first hand experience and hence attempting to talk about them would amount to mere repetition. So I will leave this thread with a little note. Who we want to worship ? Someone higher than us Or someone more powerful Or someone who has what we desire and can give us if pleased. Worship is a process of pleasing that entity. Worship rooted in desire just like any human action. And worship is part of maayaa. Why we want to worship ? Sometimes putting a finger on it is easy (e.g. intention for a child, or wealth or cure of disease etc) and sometimes difficult (we keep saying inner urge, overflowing satva guna etc, but that is very difficult to concretize). Jyotisha says : There is Atman and this urge is the inclination of Atman. Atman experiences pain/pleasure and thinks of seeking something in the world of maayaa. It may be inclined by dint of this urge but might seek the worshipping experience in the wrong place (kinnaras,pretas etc). Now this seeking or the nebulous concept of a higher person, if God and kinnara preta etc are those portions of God that the mind darkly veiled by maaya thinks to be. One by one veils fall off and darker worship, darker intentions dissolve away. I mentioned lesser aspect of Godhood and not lesser God. Hope it finally is clarified. Mother Kali is whatever you want her to be. If you play pranks she can be very rigid and scolding. Or else vara-abhaya. The first time one sees Kali one is afraid or disgusted (it is truth). Then later on Kali appears something different and becomes more benign. So if you say Kali is extremely satvik I have to wink at you (if you dont mind). OK. no more from me on this. Best wishes, Sourav =========================================================================================== sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Sourav,> > Please do not apologise. We are all here to discuss and reflect. Did you> know that Socrates had started discussion groups for studying philosophy> where he said teacher and student were at par, whether beginner or advanced.> I believe there are no such philosophy discussion groups left anymore!> > Are you equating ugra/saumya rupa with the gunas? Kali may be ugra rupa but> extremely satvik. Thakur worshipped Kali all his life and there is no> denying the guna in him. So, are you talking about lesser deities whom most> jyotish texts define as spirits, pretas, kinnaras etc.? I personally would> not want to see them from the 12th house of karakamsha. Jaimini has given> Vishnu, Skanda, Durga, Ganapati as the deities for Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu when placed in the 12th from the karakamsha. In addition he has said> that when Saturn and Venus are placed in malefic signs will give the> inclination for preta worship. So the person may be recommended Vishnu or> Lakshmi as ishta devatas but the astrologer has to be careful that such a> tendency may be there in the person. To determine how far that can fructify> or manifest, you will have to check the trines to karakamsha, then the> trines in rashi and finally in vimshamsha. And you have to see some other> factors as well. I will see all these other factors and trines etc. for the> lower level of worship. I will not see it in the 12th house from karakamsha.> Maybe the person will shift from preta worship and find his ishta. 'Mara'> can become 'Rama'. But all these other levels, inclinations, attractions> etc. can be seen in other ways from the rashi, navamsh, vimshamsa,> shashtiamsa like trimsamsa, shastiamsa etc. These are simple inclinations.> The inclination, the yearning which if we are fortunate to experience, the> way Thakur was for Kali, like a madness...that is different. That is the> true 'desire' of the soul which Jaimini refers to. > > There are some points to be noted:> > 1. We may or may not be fortunate enough to find our ishta devata in this> life time. We do not know how and when we may find him.> 2. If we do find him/her, we may stumble to him after halting at many spots.> 3. We may be apparently spiritually illiterate yet be so filled with satva> guna that we we find our ishta at first shot, unknowingly. Both Thakur and> Ma (Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Sarada Devi) have spoken about this many> times in different ways: that when the ishta calls, and the satva guna is> high, the person cannot stay away. He or she will get pulled and dragged by> the ishta towards him.> 4. We may be a zealous sadhaka doing nth rounds of malas a day, but so> filled with rajasik or tamasik thoughts, that we may never even go anywhere> near the ishta. > > This is an endless topic. We can go on.> > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:39 PM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya rupa,> for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater or> lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some people> this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until the> screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no color> but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety. We> were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this equation> is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like> complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my color,> my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to> day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > Best Wishes,> > - Sourav> > =====================================================> > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> attraction/inclination> > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be first> > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the charts> > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for the> > native or not. > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly different> > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters in> > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in the> > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from the> > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is achieved> > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and Ketu> > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet in> > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> most> > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in Chandra> > Kala Naadi. > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity (if> > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > Best wishes,> > Nitin,> > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > --> > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > sohamsa > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > >--> > > > >> > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > >> > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > >> > > namaskar. Both of you> > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> highest> > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of which> > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > >> > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > >> > >Or> > >> > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > >> > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this Ishtaamsa> ?)> > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership of> > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > >> > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> the> > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> worships> > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> desire> > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> Thus> > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more importantly> > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > >> > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in the> > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> place> > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> repose/refuge.> > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> not.> > >> > >Best wishes,> > >> > >Sourav> > >> >> >===========================================================================> > =================> > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > >>> > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > >> > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > >> > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> could> > be considered speculative.> > >> > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > divinity or spirituality. > > >> > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> guidance> > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > >> > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > >> > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak to> a> > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > bodies. > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys"> was> > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> authored> > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > >> > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> with> > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > >> > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > >> > > >> Best wishes, > > >> Nitin.> > >> > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --> > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > >> sohamsa > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > >> > > >> >--> > >> > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > >> >> > >> >Dear Sonali,> > >> >> > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > >> >> > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from Ak> > can> > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > worship> > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > Note> > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > >> >> > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> desires> > of> > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> Devata.> > 12th> > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > follows> > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to 12th> > Ak> > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just> make> > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >Warm Regards> > >> >Sanjay P> > >> >> > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 || Hare Rama Krishna ||Dear Sarbani-ji, namaskar. No, I have genuine feelings on this issue and trying to stay on track. 1. I said, bad influence on 12-th house brings the native to worship lesser aspects of the deity.2. You said: " .. In addition he (Jaimini) has said that when Saturn and Venus are placed in malefic signs will give the inclination for preta worship. So the person may be recommended Vishnu or Lakshmi as ishta devatas but the astrologer has to be careful that such a tendency may be there in the person."3. Now, I said that the Ultimate Deity is the same but how the deluded soul looks at it depends on how bad the negative influences on the 12-th from Karakaamsa are. I said, preta is the the same Vishnu but modified but the limited/wrong desires behind worship. Preta is Vishnu after all as Vishnu is everything and everything else. Why we only try to see God as Good ? He needs the devil part for his sport too. But worshipping the devil part of God is due to a narrow conception of God. 4. Going back to guna of the graha, one case can be saumya rupa like Durga or Kamala and other could be Chandi or Kalika. How do we differentiate? I was just reading Ajay's transliteration of Sanjay-ji's recent class. I just want to quote a sentence even though the context is tangential to the present: "....Normally, that person needs to worship Devi in "Soumya Rupa" not in Kali Rupa. In my experience, I have seen if this person even by mistake worships Durga, all his work will accomplish without any obstacle." Here, would you say Kali could not be soumya to a kali-sadhaka ? But yet there is an apparent distinction between Kamala rupa and Kali rupa. How to explain? I was refering to this.Best Wishes,Sourav===========================================================================================sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Sourav,> > Yes I too find multiple concepts in what you write in each mail. You are> quite slippery! We both our talking about the different levels of worship,> which is signified by the gunas in a person. Depending on that, the Divine> reveals itself to us. There is no confusion on that. What we are differing> on is to how to see these levels in the chart. Also on how we perceive the> 12th house from Karakamsha. Now thats a very big question! > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Saturday, December 03, 2005 10:25 PM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-Sourav> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > namaskar. You have written a lot of different> concepts most of which I do not have first hand experience and hence> attempting to talk about them would amount to mere repetition. So I will> leave this thread with a little note.> > Who we want to worship ? Someone higher than us Or someone more powerful Or> someone who has what we desire and can give us if pleased. Worship is a> process of pleasing that entity. Worship rooted in desire just like any> human action. And worship is part of maayaa.> > Why we want to worship ? Sometimes putting a finger on it is easy (e.g.> intention for a child, or wealth or cure of disease etc) and sometimes> difficult (we keep saying inner urge, overflowing satva guna etc, but that> is very difficult to concretize). Jyotisha says : There is Atman and this> urge is the inclination of Atman.> > Atman experiences pain/pleasure and thinks of seeking something in the world> of maayaa. It may be inclined by dint of this urge but might seek the> worshipping experience in the wrong place (kinnaras,pretas etc). Now this> seeking or the nebulous concept of a higher person, if God and kinnara preta> etc are those portions of God that the mind darkly veiled by maaya thinks to> be. One by one veils fall off and darker worship, darker intentions dissolve> away.> > I mentioned lesser aspect of Godhood and not lesser God. Hope it finally is> clarified.> > Mother Kali is whatever you want her to be. If you play pranks she can be> very rigid and scolding. Or else vara-abhaya. The first time one sees Kali> one is afraid or disgusted (it is truth). Then later on Kali appears> something different and becomes more benign. So if you say Kali is extremely> satvik I have to wink at you (if you dont mind).> > OK. no more from me on this.> > Best wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> ===============> > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Sourav,> > > > Please do not apologise. We are all here to discuss and reflect. Did you> > know that Socrates had started discussion groups for studying philosophy> > where he said teacher and student were at par, whether beginner or> advanced.> > I believe there are no such philosophy discussion groups left anymore!> > > > Are you equating ugra/saumya rupa with the gunas? Kali may be ugra rupa> but> > extremely satvik. Thakur worshipped Kali all his life and there is no> > denying the guna in him. So, are you talking about lesser deities whom> most> > jyotish texts define as spirits, pretas, kinnaras etc.? I personally would> > not want to see them from the 12th house of karakamsha. Jaimini has given> > Vishnu, Skanda, Durga, Ganapati as the deities for Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> > Ketu when placed in the 12th from the karakamsha. In addition he has said> > that when Saturn and Venus are placed in malefic signs will give the> > inclination for preta worship. So the person may be recommended Vishnu or> > Lakshmi as ishta devatas but the astrologer has to be careful that such a> > tendency may be there in the person. To determine how far that can> fructify> > or manifest, you will have to check the trines to karakamsha, then the> > trines in rashi and finally in vimshamsha. And you have to see some other> > factors as well. I will see all these other factors and trines etc. for> the> > lower level of worship. I will not see it in the 12th house from> karakamsha.> > Maybe the person will shift from preta worship and find his ishta. 'Mara'> > can become 'Rama'. But all these other levels, inclinations, attractions> > etc. can be seen in other ways from the rashi, navamsh, vimshamsa,> > shashtiamsa like trimsamsa, shastiamsa etc. These are simple inclinations.> > The inclination, the yearning which if we are fortunate to experience, the> > way Thakur was for Kali, like a madness...that is different. That is the> > true 'desire' of the soul which Jaimini refers to. > > > > There are some points to be noted:> > > > 1. We may or may not be fortunate enough to find our ishta devata in this> > life time. We do not know how and when we may find him.> > 2. If we do find him/her, we may stumble to him after halting at many> spots.> > 3. We may be apparently spiritually illiterate yet be so filled with satva> > guna that we we find our ishta at first shot, unknowingly. Both Thakur and> > Ma (Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Sarada Devi) have spoken about this many> > times in different ways: that when the ishta calls, and the satva guna is> > high, the person cannot stay away. He or she will get pulled and dragged> by> > the ishta towards him.> > 4. We may be a zealous sadhaka doing nth rounds of malas a day, but so> > filled with rajasik or tamasik thoughts, that we may never even go> anywhere> > near the ishta. > > > > This is an endless topic. We can go on.> > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:39 PM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> > outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya> rupa,> > for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater> or> > lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> > in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some> people> > this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until> the> > screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> > perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> > Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> > beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> > all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> > portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> > Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color> > but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> > approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety.> We> > were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation> > is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like> > complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> color,> > my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to> > day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> > attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > - Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > >> > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> > attraction/inclination> > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> first> > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> charts> > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> the> > > native or not. > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> different> > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> achieved> > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu> > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet> in> > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> > most> > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > sohamsa > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> Chandra> > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> (if> > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > Best wishes,> > > Nitin,> > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > sohamsa > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > >--> > > > > > >> > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > >> > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > >> > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> > highest> > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> which> > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > >> > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > >> > > >Or> > > >> > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > >> > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> Ishtaamsa> > ?)> > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership> of> > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > >> > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> > the> > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> > worships> > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> > desire> > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> > Thus> > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > >> > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> the> > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> > place> > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> > repose/refuge.> > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> > not.> > > >> > > >Best wishes,> > > >> > > >Sourav> > > >> > >> >> >===========================================================================> > > =================> > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > >>> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > >> > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > >> > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> > could> > > be considered speculative.> > > >> > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > > divinity or spirituality. > > > >> > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> > guidance> > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > >> > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > >> > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak> to> > a> > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > bodies. > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys"> > was> > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> > authored> > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > >> > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> > with> > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > >> > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > >> > > > >> Best wishes, > > > >> Nitin.> > > >> > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --> > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > >> sohamsa > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > >> > > > >> >--> > > >> > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > >> >> > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > >> >> > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > >> >> > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> Ak> > > can> > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > > worship> > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > > Note> > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > >> >> > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> > desires> > > of> > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> > Devata.> > > 12th> > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > > follows> > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> 12th> > > Ak> > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just> > make> > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >Warm Regards> > > >> >Sanjay P> > > >> >> > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Shri Brahmadaru Smarami Dear Sourav, Let me repeat again for the third time. I think everyone here agrees and holds the same view on the different levels of worship, depending on the spiritual evolution of the person and his basic gunas. I wrote this in my earlier mail too. Where I am differing from you is that I do not see it from the 12th house of the Karakamsha but instead of from the trines and other places in the rasi, navamsa, vimsamsa, shastiamsa like trimsamsa, sastiamsa etc. Please see the brief mail that I send last night again. Best Regards, Sarbani Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] Saturday, December 03, 2005 11:48 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-Sourav || Hare Rama Krishna || Dear Sarbani-ji, namaskar. No, I have genuine feelings on this issue and trying to stay on track. 1. I said, bad influence on 12-th house brings the native to worship lesser aspects of the deity. 2. You said: " .. In addition he (Jaimini) has said that when Saturn and Venus are placed in malefic signs will give the inclination for preta worship. So the person may be recommended Vishnu or Lakshmi as ishta devatas but the astrologer has to be careful that such a tendency may be there in the person." 3. Now, I said that the Ultimate Deity is the same but how the deluded soul looks at it depends on how bad the negative influences on the 12-th from Karakaamsa are. I said, preta is the the same Vishnu but modified but the limited/wrong desires behind worship. Preta is Vishnu after all as Vishnu is everything and everything else. Why we only try to see God as Good ? He needs the devil part for his sport too. But worshipping the devil part of God is due to a narrow conception of God. 4. Going back to guna of the graha, one case can be saumya rupa like Durga or Kamala and other could be Chandi or Kalika. How do we differentiate? I was just reading Ajay's transliteration of Sanjay-ji's recent class. I just want to quote a sentence even though the context is tangential to the present: "....Normally, that person needs to worship Devi in "Soumya Rupa" not in Kali Rupa. In my experience, I have seen if this person even by mistake worships Durga, all his work will accomplish without any obstacle." Here, would you say Kali could not be soumya to a kali-sadhaka ? But yet there is an apparent distinction between Kamala rupa and Kali rupa. How to explain? I was refering to this. Best Wishes, Sourav =========================================================================================== sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote:>> Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > Dear Sourav,> > Yes I too find multiple concepts in what you write in each mail. You are> quite slippery! We both our talking about the different levels of worship,> which is signified by the gunas in a person. Depending on that, the Divine> reveals itself to us. There is no confusion on that. What we are differing> on is to how to see these levels in the chart. Also on how we perceive the> 12th house from Karakamsha. Now thats a very big question! > > Best Regards,> > Sarbani> > > > > _____ > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > Saturday, December 03, 2005 10:25 PM> sohamsa > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-Sourav> > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > namaskar. You have written a lot of different> concepts most of which I do not have first hand experience and hence> attempting to talk about them would amount to mere repetition. So I will> leave this thread with a little note.> > Who we want to worship ? Someone higher than us Or someone more powerful Or> someone who has what we desire and can give us if pleased. Worship is a> process of pleasing that entity. Worship rooted in desire just like any> human action. And worship is part of maayaa.> > Why we want to worship ? Sometimes putting a finger on it is easy (e.g.> intention for a child, or wealth or cure of disease etc) and sometimes> difficult (we keep saying inner urge, overflowing satva guna etc, but that> is very difficult to concretize). Jyotisha says : There is Atman and this> urge is the inclination of Atman.> > Atman experiences pain/pleasure and thinks of seeking something in the world> of maayaa. It may be inclined by dint of this urge but might seek the> worshipping experience in the wrong place (kinnaras,pretas etc). Now this> seeking or the nebulous concept of a higher person, if God and kinnara preta> etc are those portions of God that the mind darkly veiled by maaya thinks to> be. One by one veils fall off and darker worship, darker intentions dissolve> away.> > I mentioned lesser aspect of Godhood and not lesser God. Hope it finally is> clarified.> > Mother Kali is whatever you want her to be. If you play pranks she can be> very rigid and scolding. Or else vara-abhaya. The first time one sees Kali> one is afraid or disgusted (it is truth). Then later on Kali appears> something different and becomes more benign. So if you say Kali is extremely> satvik I have to wink at you (if you dont mind).> > OK. no more from me on this.> > Best wishes,> > Sourav> > ============================================================================> ===============> > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> >> > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > Dear Sourav,> > > > Please do not apologise. We are all here to discuss and reflect. Did you> > know that Socrates had started discussion groups for studying philosophy> > where he said teacher and student were at par, whether beginner or> advanced.> > I believe there are no such philosophy discussion groups left anymore!> > > > Are you equating ugra/saumya rupa with the gunas? Kali may be ugra rupa> but> > extremely satvik. Thakur worshipped Kali all his life and there is no> > denying the guna in him. So, are you talking about lesser deities whom> most> > jyotish texts define as spirits, pretas, kinnaras etc.? I personally would> > not want to see them from the 12th house of karakamsha. Jaimini has given> > Vishnu, Skanda, Durga, Ganapati as the deities for Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> > Ketu when placed in the 12th from the karakamsha. In addition he has said> > that when Saturn and Venus are placed in malefic signs will give the> > inclination for preta worship. So the person may be recommended Vishnu or> > Lakshmi as ishta devatas but the astrologer has to be careful that such a> > tendency may be there in the person. To determine how far that can> fructify> > or manifest, you will have to check the trines to karakamsha, then the> > trines in rashi and finally in vimshamsha. And you have to see some other> > factors as well. I will see all these other factors and trines etc. for> the> > lower level of worship. I will not see it in the 12th house from> karakamsha.> > Maybe the person will shift from preta worship and find his ishta. 'Mara'> > can become 'Rama'. But all these other levels, inclinations, attractions> > etc. can be seen in other ways from the rashi, navamsh, vimshamsa,> > shashtiamsa like trimsamsa, shastiamsa etc. These are simple inclinations.> > The inclination, the yearning which if we are fortunate to experience, the> > way Thakur was for Kali, like a madness...that is different. That is the> > true 'desire' of the soul which Jaimini refers to. > > > > There are some points to be noted:> > > > 1. We may or may not be fortunate enough to find our ishta devata in this> > life time. We do not know how and when we may find him.> > 2. If we do find him/her, we may stumble to him after halting at many> spots.> > 3. We may be apparently spiritually illiterate yet be so filled with satva> > guna that we we find our ishta at first shot, unknowingly. Both Thakur and> > Ma (Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Sarada Devi) have spoken about this many> > times in different ways: that when the ishta calls, and the satva guna is> > high, the person cannot stay away. He or she will get pulled and dragged> by> > the ishta towards him.> > 4. We may be a zealous sadhaka doing nth rounds of malas a day, but so> > filled with rajasik or tamasik thoughts, that we may never even go> anywhere> > near the ishta. > > > > This is an endless topic. We can go on.> > > > Best Regards,> > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Sourav Chowdhury [souravc108] > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:39 PM> > sohamsa > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta"-> > > > > > > > || Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > > Dear Sarbani-ji,> > > > Namaskar. Hope I am not mistaken. > > > > >I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. > > > > I didn't mean lower Ishta or higher Ishtam. I meant> > tamasika/rajasika/satvika influence on Ishtadevata-sthana influences the> > outlook in worship. That is how we differentiate ugra-rupa with saumya> rupa,> > for example. Of course there is no higher or lower. But there is greater> or> > lesser in our conception of God. Swami Vivekananda gave the idea or a hole> > in the screen through which we view reality (God manifest). For some> people> > this hole is bigger. With time the hole become s bigger and bigger until> the> > screen drops altogether. Hence bigger or smaller is how much one can> > perceive God. We say "He! Krishna ! He! Krishna" How much do we know real> > Krishna. We see him is Gopala or Muralidhara form, but how much we can see> > beyond this form ? Every moment of every time Krishna Shakti is performing> > all actions, how much we can perceive ? Myself, I perceive a negligible> > portion. But with time, Krishna will show me more of himself, I pray thus.> > Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gave an example that a pure diamond has no> color> > but takes up the color of the background. God is one and same, however the> > approach to God is different, and must be so, because God wanted variety.> We> > were discussing about a Jaimini Sutra, just to keep in mind.> > > > God is a complement to us. Myself+My Ishta Devata = 1.0. When this> equation> > is satisfied and understood, I (an individual) will not exist. Just like> > complementary colors when combined, gives one color. Depending on my> color,> > my Ishta devata's color (as viewed in my eyes) change, even from day to> > day. Because of this complementary nature we feel the attraction. This> > attraction is from the soul level not on mundane level.> > > > Again, hope I am not misunderstood. And didn't mean to argue for a moment.> > > > Best Wishes,> > > > - Sourav> > > > =====================================================> > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , "Sarbani Sarkar" sarbani@s... wrote:> > >> > > Shri Brahmadaru Smarami> > > > > > Dear Nitin and SanjayP,> > > > > > Sorry for barging in to the discussion. I agree that the 12th from the> > > Karamkamsha is the Jivanmuktamsha and the 9th from Karakamsha is the> > > Vigyanamsha. The deity to who one is drawn to or has> > attraction/inclination> > > towards, although that deity may not be his or her ishta, should be> first> > > seen in the 5th house of the rashi chart. Vimshamsha is one of the> charts> > > which will confirm whether worshipping of that deity is indicated for> the> > > native or not. > > > > > > As for the ishta devata, yes, the rashi will often help to determine the> > > form of the divine. Jupiter is Pisces or in Aries is a slightly> different> > > story. I do not agree with Saurav's dictum that malefics in the 12th> from> > > Karakamsha will show lesser deities. This applies for 5th house matters> in> > > the rashi chart. A lesser deity can never be ishta. The ishta sits in> the> > > 12th house of moksha , having the capacity to deliver the native from> the> > > all bondages of the world, nay of several worlds. Whichever the graha> > > sitting over there, malefic or benefic, has then lost its grahatva, and> > > appears to us only as the spark of the paramatman. Jivan mukti is> achieved> > > at the paramam padam (12th house)of Vishnu; hence Vishnu avatars are> > > prescribed. Saturn is Naryana and Rahu and Ketu are Varaha and Matsya> > > avatars while Mars Nrisimha rupa. In jyotish boks of Bengal, the dasa> > > mahavidyas are given as the ishta devis, where Saturn, Mars, Rahu and> Ketu> > > become the goddesses Kali, Bagala, Chhinnamasta and Dhumavati. Under no> > > circumstances are the dasa avatars or the dasa mahavidyas or any form of> > > Shiva or whoever lesser deities. The whole way of perceiving the planet> in> > > the 12th from karakamsha is different. > > > > > > (Sanjay, ishta is that which we desire most, that is the object of the> > > desire and not the desire itself. It is said that what we should desire> > most> > > is Krishna, there can be no higher desire than that. Hence Krishna is> > > worshipped with the Kama bija Klim.)> > > > > > > > > Best Regards,> > > > > > Sarbani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Nitin K [sjc@j...] > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:36 AM> > > sohamsa > > > Re: Trying to understand "Ishta" for those who do not> > > worship in particular forms....> > > > > > > > > ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > > > > Dear List Members, Namaskaar...> > > > > > Let's not use "Ishtaamsa," though it is understood what position you are> > > referring to in the vargas (subdivisonal charts). > > > [There are so many terms to learn and grasp, why create a new one?]> > > > > > "Jivan Muktaamsa" perhaps would be better as it is referred to in> Chandra> > > Kala Naadi. > > > > > > 2 people with the same Ishta need not feel attracted to the same deity> (if> > > inclined to worship) or the same form. What the person finds closer in> > > his/her heart will be a representation found from the Vimsamsa (D20). > > > > > > Sourav -- Chandra (Moon) as a graha (planet) represents jiva atman. The> > > Rashi holding it would represent jar atman. > > > > > > For a wholistic perspective, consider both. > > > > > > Hope some of this helps. May the Gurus continue to guide us.> > > > > > Best wishes,> > > Nitin,> > > > > > || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> > > "Sourav Chowdhury" souravc108> > > sohamsa > > > Fri, 02 Dec 2005 23:54:59 -0000> > > > > > >--> > > > > > >> > > >|| Hare Rama Krishna ||> > > >> > > >Dear Nitin and SanjayP-ji,> > > >> > > > namaskar. Both of you> > > have raised very good points. I was reading Kapilopadesha (a segment of> > > Bhagavatam) in which Maharshi Kalipa describes, how worship of various> > > grades of deities result in going to various lokas after birth, the> > highest> > > loka being Satya loka which is achieved by worship of Mahavishnu (of> which> > > Sri Kapila is an incarnation). This indicates that > > > >> > > >(a) there are indeed various grades of deities> > > >> > > >Or> > > >> > > >(b) it is the same 'overall' deity and we are worshipping an aspect of> > > Him/Her and that forms our deity.> > > >> > > >Tamasika grahas in the 12-th from karakaamsa (can we call this> Ishtaamsa> > ?)> > > can show a lower aspect of deity inwhich tamasika qualities are more> > > manifest. Opposite for Satvika grahas. Rasi drishti(s) on and ownership> of> > > this Ishtaamsa is also to be considered. This is my understanding.> > > >> > > >Another thought is that, say there are two persons with same AK graha> > > having same Ju in the Ishtaamsa. Does it mean that they are appealing to> > the> > > same deity ? I doubt. Each individual is different. If two persons> > worships> > > the same form of Sri Vishnu, there is a difference in the worship (in> > desire> > > of objects for which worship is made or in intensity of longing, say.)> > Thus> > > we should take into account the rasi aspects, lorship and more> importantly> > > (to my understanding) the rasi itself of the Ishtaamsa.> > > >> > > >Nitin, is it because of Mo or it is because of some jalatatva rasi in> the> > > Ishtamsa of that singer/composer ? I understand it as Ishtaamsa is the> > place> > > of repose of the soul (which it can get by getting rid of maayik> > > experiences) and the graha sitting in there/influencing it, it the> > > deity/conciousness to whom the native (bound soul) seeks this> > repose/refuge.> > > Agnostics have such deities as well whether they want to believe it or> > not.> > > >> > > >Best wishes,> > > >> > > >Sourav> > > >> > >> >> >===========================================================================> > > =================> > > >sohamsa , "Nitin K" sjc@j... wrote:> > > >>> > > >> ||| Aum Krishna Guru |||> > > >> > > > >> Dear Sonali Ji and Samjay P, Namaskaar. > > > >> > > > >> Allow me to share some of my thoughts. The below is subjective and> > could> > > be considered speculative.> > > >> > > > >> There is a segment in society who do not believe in idol worship or> > > cannot find God in any particular form. This does not indicate a lack of> > > divinity or spirituality. > > > >> > > > >> Here is an approach I try to follow when such a person asks for> > guidance> > > and the 12th from Kaarakamsa has to be revealed...> > > >> > > > >> Use the elements and nature.> > > >> > > > >> For example, the higher spirit we commonly refer to as God may speak> to> > a> > > person having the Moon (Chandra) in this position, when visiting water> > > bodies. > > > >> [in one of the conferences, a chart of a singer from "The Beach Boys"> > was> > > discussed. This celebrity felt a divine purpose near the water and> > authored> > > many songs about the beach, etc.]> > > >> > > > >> Likewise, the Sun in such a position may have a person speak to him> > with> > > representations of sun-rise, day-break, twilight, etc. > > > >> > > > >> Hope some of these thoughts help.> > > >> > > > >> Best wishes, > > > >> Nitin.> > > >> > > > >> || Namah Shivaaya ||> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --> > > >> Sanjay Prabhakaran sanjaychettiar@g...> > > >> sohamsa > > > >> Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:31:22 -0500> > > >> > > > >> >--> > > >> > > > >> >|| Om Gurave Namah ||> > > >> >> > > >> >Dear Sonali,> > > >> >> > > >> > You can call me Sanjay without a Ji.> > > >> >> > > >> >>When it is said that 'worship of good or evil deities', how do we> > > >> >>co-relate that with people who dont do puja and such ?> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > In Jaimini Sutra (Ref:Jaimini Updesa/SRath) malefics in 12th from> Ak> > > can> > > >> >give worship of lower dieties (Ketu not malefic here).> > > >> > Also Maharishi says Venus if being the 12th lord from Ak can gives> > > worship> > > >> >of of lower dieties too.> > > >> >Refer charts like Hitler or Ted Bundy (given in last Jyotish Digest)> > > Note> > > >> >thier 12th from Ak is lorded by Venus and Venus was the Ak.> > > >> >> > > >> >My understanding is, 12th from Ak is Ishta, Ishta means just the> > desires> > > of> > > >> >the soul. Now when we worship higherforms then it becomes Ishta> > Devata.> > > 12th> > > >> >from Ak is the natural desires of the soul. Everybody has some Ishta> > > follows> > > >> >that path. Naturally a native will be drawn to matters related to> 12th> > > Ak> > > >> >and give the person "a purpose". But proper worship I think we just> > make> > > >> >sure we are in the right path.> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >Warm Regards> > > >> >Sanjay P> > > >> >> > > >> >Hare Rama Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________> > > Sent via the WebMail system at justnitin.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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