Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Dear Rohiniji , Understood. Anand - Rohiniranjan Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:53 AM Re: Disservice to Astrology Ghurye boss, My question/statement was far simpler than what you have interpreted it as, and I quote, " As Rohiniranjan indicates we cannot isolate the instances of combustion and success " I was just seeking some clear examples where combustion 'alone' would show its bad and evil side without other confounding factors! Thanks Rohiniranjan , Anand <anand.ghurye wrote: > > Dear Manojji , > > I have talked about this particular instance of Mr. Rao's interview . I am not discrediting his years of service to astrology . Just think of it , even Thomas Alva Edison , the originator of DC electricity , giant in the area of science , chose to oppose AC electricity - and then he was wrong . That did not discredit his thousands of discoveries spanning decades of research . His discoveries remained where they were and opposition to electricity remained where it was . > > As Rohiniranjan indicates we cannot isolate the instances of combustion and success . In fact in astrology it is rare that we can isolate any one factor unless we increase the sample size many many times and then still it remains a conjecture . In that case making a categorical statement that eclipse does not affect individual in any way also is wrong . We do not have enough information . And look , it is easy to demonstrate the yes effect , you need only one instance of positive part , but when you say No , it is much more difficult to demonstrate because you need to find out and discard *all* the instances . > > Just look at the questions which are asked on variety of Jyotish groups . Are they more about spiritual progress , knowledge gain and stuff like that or are they about marriage , divorce , health , money and more mundane things ? Rajiv Gandhi became prime minister primarily because he was born in the Gandhi family and not really because of his chart . Trying to fit in everything just to the astro chart and not paying any attention to time , place and circumstances will not help the case of astrology . Do you think Sachin Tendulkar would have been a great cricket player if he was born in Canada ? > > I am talking about seeing the eclipse meaning the belt through which the eclipse passes . When the eclipse does not pass Mumbai , the almanacs ( I have Kalnirnay ) does not mention the eclipse . The visual element has to be there otherwise every month the moon goes in front of the sun any way and blocks his light . Only when the moon blocks the light coming to the earth , that we call it eclipse . Do you not think so ? When we are able to see it , it is eclipse , othewise not ! > > I am not saying a yoga will be bad or good , but do we have enough data to say that eclipse does not effect other than vague statements of numbers ? Two or three cases here and there do not prove the point or disprove it for that matter .. > > > > Regards , > > Anand > > A. K. Ghurye > > - > Manoj Chandran > > Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:20 AM > Re: Disservice to Astrology > > > Dear Anand Ji, > > Shri KN Rao is a breath of fresh air in a field filled with " so called astologers " who fleece the gullible millions of their hard earned money in the name of " expensive Upayas " and extenseive fear mongering. He has acted like a " heart defibrillator " to an art form that was in deep trouble, except for a few exceptions. To discredit his many years of yeomen service to astrology will be a much greater tragedy than this one interview that you belabour about. > > You have cleverly selected all the Gory details in the Gandhi familly tree, forgetting all their glory days. Ofcourse Rajiv Gandhi had a lucky chart. Every one needs to die some day and how we live our lives is what makes it " lucky " or " unlucky " . > > " Lord Buddha forsake his wife, his children, tortured his body, begged for food and died at the end of his life. " If I make that statement will that do justice to the Great Gutama Buddha's Life? > > The grea Yogi/Guru, Shri Ragavendra of Mantralaya, after he took his Sanyas, his wife commited suicide. Should we focus on that fact instead of his spiritual greatness? > > What is the great illogic in his interview any way. Sun, Moon being so close along the Rahu-Ketu axis is difficult no doubt, but there can be benefits as well. A combusion is not all bad. Sun is also the Naisargika Atmakaraka. Hence he highlights the quality of the combust planets. While the external signification of the planets might suffer (like Mother, Childhood etc), internal significations can flourish. For example several well known world famous singers/dancers have Venus combust. The key is which house this combination is placed and what are all the rulerships of these planets. Do you seriously believe that all the thousands of children born near this day are all doomed? > > Also you talk of only some part of the world being able to " see the eclipse " . Do you really believe in the fairy tale that effects of the planets are because of their " gravitaional pull of some sort " ? Please read Shri Yukteswar's and Shri Paramahansa Yogananda's books carefully. They have given reasons why Kriya yoga speeds up evolution. Similar logic can be applied to planets as well. What we see outside has already been mirrored inside. That is why astrology works, not because of gravitational pulls etc.Yes, there is a visual element to Jyotish but that is not the whole story. > > Even if all your arguments are correct (which obviously they are NOT), dont throw the baby out with the bath water. Please kindly exercise restraints when critizising such Giants. One interview does not negate a Life of Great Contributions To Astrology. > > Regards, > -Manoj > > > ________________________________ > Anand <anand.ghurye > > Monday, July 20, 2009 8:02:55 PM > Disservice to Astrology > > Dear Friends , > I just watched the interview of Mr. K. N. Rao on the TV . He discussed the > upcoming eclipse . I know Mr. Rao to be an astrologer of repute , have read > many of his books and have personal respect for him . Still I feel that he > did disservice to astrology in giving this interview , where he made > categorical statement that the eclipse did not do any harm to pregnant women > and had no effect on the offspring . > > He put forth a view that moving around outside at the time of the eclipse > was not at all harmful to the pregnant women or the child they carried . He > went on to say that even birth during eclipse was not bad . Further he > alleged that as there would be 9 to 10 eclipses every year , every pregnant > woman would at some time or other would be exposed to eclipse rays and as > they did not all give birth to deformed children so eclipse time birth was > no problem . > > Faulty logic , wrong examples ,and confused generalization ! > > There is a child born who hardly gets to see his father , because his father > and mother do not get along well and are separated for all practical > purposes , his mother is too busy to take proper care of him due to her work > pressures , he grows up and pursues a career of his liking but has to cut > short his career to take up family business reluctantly , his younger > brother dies in an accident , his mother is dies in gunfire , and he himself > is blown to pieces in a bomb explosion - do you call that a lucky horoscope > ? Mr. Rao did that . He gave this as an example of lucky chart . The chart > of late Rajiv Gandhi who was born exact one month after eclipse . > > Mr. Rao said that he had innumerable cases of children born during eclipses > having had no misfortunes or problems in life . We ll , he has not published > his study and how many does he mean by innumerable is subject to debate . > Question mark . > > He exaggerated the number of eclipses each year . All eclipses are not seen > from all parts of the earth . So not even are mentioned in the almanac . If > you see the past three years record you will see that a large portion of the > world remained outside the eclipse belt almost all the time . > > Lastly we keep talking about variety of yogas in Jyotish . We say that a > planet gets combust a certain degrees away from the sun and attribute so > many qualities to such a situation and then when moon and sun are exactly > conjoint , Mr. Rao says that there are no effects ! Faulty logic ? > > Sorry Mr. Rao can't buy your conjectures this time around > > Regards , > > Anand > > A. K. Ghurye > > --- > > visit http://www.astrolife.com for horoscopes,expert services, remedies and more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Dear All, I think we must try to understand what Sh. Rao had meant, in the right context, and not split hairs. He is not here to explain, nor does it matter to him, take it or leave it. We surely do not doubt his astrological acumen and his knowledge of basic yogas. So where will this debate lead us? Don’t bite my finger, look where I am pointing, I guess OSHO had said! It is a pity that despite a great foundation of knowledge and spiritual heritage, we’ve not been able to build upon that base, augment and adorn it with modern know-how in a more holistic manner. The problem is not only of PONGA PADITS, I guess! There are, of course, a huge number of ignorant, often illiterate, Brahmins, who get their reserved seat, with roti, kapda, makan, dukan and other perks, to mislead people and promote social evils in the name of astrology and shastras. They are the caretakers of religion/pujaries of lakhs of temples across the nation, who are able to influence the masses. But know nothing, have learnt nothing! Aptly called Ponga Pandits! But, there is also a more hazardous section of educated and aware, professional practitioners of astrology (NUEVO PANDITS , if we call them!), who indulge in UNETHICAL practices. They are also the ones who use all types of mass media to achieve success in their evil designs and do not leave any opportunity to squeeze out money from innocent clients in the name of remedies (Upayachaaris as KNR calls them!). They operate in cities, where people are more materialistic, more frustrated and scared! Their outreach is far greater and hook people more easily. It is quite comparable to unethical medical practices prevalent today. Many healthy persons go for a routine check up and come back with stents in their hearts. It is a similar experience with these astrologers. Often people come back with eroded bank balance, self-esteem and self-worth. KSY, sade saati, putra dosha, pitri dosha, sarp dosha, etc., are the dreaded words used to ruin their psyche. Why should these words be used like deadly diseases which must kill a person? We know that no planetary combination is for nothing! All arishtas, yogas and doshas have some meaning, but why should they be treated like scare crows, specially by those with half-baked knowledge, is the question. Why can’t astrology be a gentle counseling to let an individual explore his/her strengths and overcome weaknesses? //Let us also recognise the menace of the contractors who claim to possess the power to relieve you or your pain and trouble---for a huge fees. The result is loss of money and no relief. It starts with a fright. // KNR says. Recently, there was a case of a businessman who had been facing losses in his business for the last 10 years. 3 years back, one astrologer took him for a ride, in the name of remedying his KSY. Poor man filled the pockets of this cheat 3 times to perform antibiotic poojas, etc., and he lost another 2 lakhs. Nothing materialized, and this person was almost driven to commit suicide. It took a while to restore his faith in humanity and astrologers. There are many such instances happening every day as we all know. I hope we can make it difficult for such unethical practitioners and fear-mongers. I hope there’s some law to book them for hoodwinking innocent public. And finally, I hope we can see things in the right perspective! Thanks and Regards Neelam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Dear Mr. Anand, The chapter you describe, is called Shanti Adhyaya and that I have already quoted. Please present a case, a horoscope where the person sufferred in his life, just by taking birth during the arishtas mentioned in this chapter and then keep pressing. Please refer to Phaladeepika, Sarvarth Chintamani, Saravali, Manasagari does mention of results in different pakshas and tithis etc., Jataka Parijaat etc., You cannot go on mixing things of mundane astrology into natal astrology. Regarding the frequency of eclipses, I had already provided a list for just one decade, and if you desire, shall give you the dates of all eclipses since 1900. Or you can scourge the net to see it yourself that eclipses keep occuring every year. Three to five is their frequency and this is simple astronomical phenomenon. There are many fallacies in the field of astrology and they are spreading fast like wild fire. KSY is one such thing. What Mr. K.N. Rao has been doing is to remove these fears so that you dont lose thousands and lakhs in doing " upayas " with " upayacharyas " . best regards and no more on this, Mouji ________________________________ Anand <anand.ghurye Thursday, July 23, 2009 9:06:28 PM Re: Disservice to Astrology  Dear Manojji , My replies below Dear Mr. Anand, Try to understand what I am trying to say. You dont find logic in what Shri K.N. Rao was speaking upon and you dwell upon it selectively. You only select the chart out of the charts suited to your logic. No where in BPHS or any other Hora Book, effect of birth during eclipse has been provided. In the Shanti Adhyaya, only remedies are prescribed for many things, including eclipses. Anand - From BPHS Ch. 85. Inauspicious Births 1-4. The Venerable Sage said. O Maitreya! Now I will describe to you the circumstances, in which the births are inauspicious in spite of Lagna and the Planets being well disposed. Although Lagna may be well disposed, births will be inauspicious, if they take place on Amavasya (last day of the Krishna Paksha), on Chaturdasi (14th Tithi), in Krishna Paksha (dark half of the month), in Bhadra Karan, in the Nakshatra of the brother, in the Nakshatras of father and mother, at the time of entry of Sun in a Ra-s'i, the time of Pata, at the time of solar and lunar eclipses, at the time of Vyati Pata, in Gandantas of all the three kinds, in Yamaghant, Tithikshaya, in Dagdha Yoga etc. The birth of a son after three daughters and birth of a daughter after three sons and the birth of a freak are inauspicious. But there are remedial measures for obtaining relief from the evil effects of such births, which are being described in the following chapters. In an year, many eclipses keep occuring and hence anyone born on this earth would have been born when some eclipse somewhere would be in operation. When you calculate the longitude of planets, do you segregate between, longitude of Venus in London and longitude of Venus in Delhi. Anand - Please check this conjecture with the path of eclipse and the frequency .. Then there are so many other " arishtas " mentioned in astrology. Do you mean to say that all the children born during this period would suffer some arishta. Does it happen? If it does, support your claim with examples and not just by mere statements which mean nothing without support. Now if I tell you that the statement " karko-bhav nashaya " which you have been reading for years in the books means nothing as has been brought out in the latest issue of Journal of Astrology and which is supported by a study on good number of charts and for each Karaka for each bhava. If I am not wrong, in 85% cases studied in that study, Karaka placed in the Bhava has given auspicious results. Anand - I am not claiming anything . You asked for scriptural reference , I provided it . You cannot play double game of conveniently depending on scriptures when you want and ignoring them when you do not . You are entitled to your opinion but put forth your statement as your opinion and respect the opinions of others as their opinions . I do not want to go into Karako bhav nashaya at this point here . We are none to question the abilities of an astrological Giant like Shri K.N. Rao and on the contrary, we should be bowing to them to gain some knowledge especially in the days when astrologers are almost being regarded as cheats, thugs and fleecers as a majority of them only prescribe remedies and charge money conveniently forgetting the curse the science carries. A case in example is the case cited by Mr. Manoj Chandran. ANAND > I am not questioning his abilities . I am questioning his logic . Two things are not the same . So, the only objective of my writing that mail was that lets look at things pragmatically and objectively rather than proving ourselves to be dogmatic fools. ANAND > This is exactly what I want to happen. Let us look at things pragmatically and not dogmatically . The dogma comes from following anyone or anything blindly be it a scripture or a person . ANAND > We have to question , question and question . Our glorious tradition of scientific knowledge ended when we stopped questioning and started following . Regards , Anand best wishes, Mouji ____________ _________ _________ __ Anand <anand.ghurye@ gmail.com> Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:46:29 PM Re: Disservice to Astrology Dear Manojji , I am not able to understand what you are trying to convey . Do you mean to say that we should not take cognizance of ancient classical texts ? And if we do , why should we interfere with a natural function as that of childbirth ? If a caesarean section is absolutely necessary as emergency , then the necessity overrides the muhurtha . Do you think that you can override destiny by merely trying to suggest great muhurtas to doctors ? If that were true , by now we would have ten Mahatmas and twenty Netaji Subhash . In fact come to think of it , Gaquelin who did a lot of research on the connection of horoscope and sports ability , says that after the proliferation of Caesarean operation , the number of horoscopes to sports ability connection reduces in strengh. Regards , Anand A. K. Ghurye - Manoj Kumar Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:20 AM Re: Disservice to Astrology Then please go on and add, births during vyati pat yoga, all four fixed karanas, all sankrantis and amavasyas, all vish and related yogas and then advise doctors to perform birth of children only in few selected days. regards, Mouji ____________ _________ _________ __ Anand <anand.ghurye@ gmail.com> Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:19:09 PM Re: Disservice to Astrology Dear Manojji , Please see the chapter in BPHS with the title Remedies for eclipse birth for more information . Further you can see that remedies are given for amavasya birth too . We keep saying that our greatness should not be decided by where we are born but you seem to indicate that you would respect me only if I were born in high status family . I disagree . See the eclipse path and you will see only a small part of the world is covered by the ecliptic Sun. For example today's eclipse started with Shanghai and ended in the sea off Ahmadabad coast. When you take the visual element , the other areas remain unaffected . Regards , Anand K. Ghurye ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - - Manoj Kumar Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:57 PM Re: Disservice to Astrology Dear Anand ji, Just read your mail addressed to Shri Manoj Chandran ji but was tempted to ask you some things which came to mind. I have talked about this particular instance of Mr. Rao’s interview. I am not discrediting his years of service to astrology. Just think of it, even Thomas Alva Edison, the originator of DC electricity, giant in the area of science, chose to oppose AC electricity - and then he was wrong . That did not discredit his thousands of discoveries spanning decades of research. His discoveries remained where they were and opposition to electricity remained where it was. I wonder, does Shri K.N. Rao need a certificate of appreciation from ordinary men like us. As Rohiniranjan indicates we cannot isolate the instances of combustion and success. In fact in astrology it is rare that we can isolate any one factor unless we increase the sample size many many times and then still it remains a conjecture. In that case making a categorical statement that eclipse does not affect individual in any way also is wrong. We do not have enough information. And look, it is easy to demonstrate the yes effect, you need only one instance of positive part, but when you say No, it is much more difficult to demonstrate because you need to find out and discard *all* the instances. There is enough information about everything. You need to work it out. Just look at the questions which are asked on variety of Jyotish groups . Are they more about spiritual progress, knowledge gain and stuff like that or are they about marriage, divorce, health, money and more mundane things? Rajiv Gandhi became prime minister primarily because he was born in the Gandhi family and not really because of his chart. Trying to fit in everything just to the astro chart and not paying any attention to time, place and circumstances will not help the case of astrology. Do you think Sachin Tendulkar would have been a great cricket player if he was born in Canada? If Moon was on earth, I would have owned it. Was he born in Canada or India? And with this kind of a chart, may be he would have been a great equestarian or a Rugby Player, if he were to be born in Canada. Please do not hypothesise just to prove your point. Let the Ifs and Buts remain where they belong to. Why could you not be born in Gandhi family and then we would have been proud to be interacting with you because then perhaps we would have been interacting with some as great as him or for that matter Tendulkar or Amitabh. I am talking about seeing the eclipse meaning the belt through which the eclipse passes . When the eclipse does not pass Mumbai, the almanacs (I have Kalnirnay) does not mention the eclipse . The visual element has to be there otherwise every month the moon goes in front of the sun any way and blocks his light . Only when the moon blocks the light coming to the earth , that we call it eclipse . Do you not think so ? When we are able to see it , it is eclipse , othewise not ! Please enlighten us with some text which mentions what you have said I am not saying a yoga will be bad or good , but do we have enough data to say that eclipse does not effect other than vague statements of numbers ? Two or three cases here and there do not prove the point or disprove it for that matter .. Appending a list of only the solar eclipses just for one decade for your ready reference and enough information. Just go through the list and kindly inform us whether there can be a birth with no eclipse falling. Calendar Date 1951 Mar 07 20:53:40 Annular 1951 Sep 01 12:51:51 Annular 1952 Feb 25 09:11:35 Total 1952 Aug 20 15:13:35 Annular 1953 Feb 14 00:59:30 Partial 1953 Jul 11 02:44:14 Partial 1953 Aug 09 15:55:03 Partial 1954 Jan 05 02:32:01 Annular 1954 Jun 30 12:32:38 Total 1954 Dec 25 07:36:43 Annular 1955 Jun 20 04:10:42 Total 1955 Dec 14 07:02:26 Annular 1956 Jun 08 21:20:39 Total 1956 Dec 02 08:00:35 Partial 1957 Apr 30 00:05:28 Annular 1957 Oct 23 04:54:02 Total 1958 Apr 19 03:27:17 Annular 1958 Oct 12 20:55:28 Total 1959 Apr 08 03:24:08 Annular 1959 Oct 02 12:27:00 Total 1960 Mar 27 07:25:08 Partial 1960 Sep 20 22:59:56 Partial Now, if you wish to come up with a theory about visibility of the eclipse, then please quote the classical text which mentions it. regards, Mouji. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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