Guest guest Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 Shri Suresh Hattangadiji, Namastey! Thanks for your response. <Mr Kaul should give his own calculations to prove that the date arrived at is wrong and why it is wrong.> Nobody has his own calculatoins, not even Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar! The Planetarium or any other software through which he has calculated the horoscope of Bhagwan Ram etc. itself is supposed to be based on some data from some observatory! Most probably, Mr. Bhatnagar has arrived at those planetary conclusions through Planetariium software! The fact that the results arrived at by Shri Bhatnagar for the date of January 10, 5114 BCE itself are wrong has been amply demonstrated by me through a software prepared by none other than an erudite scholar and " Vedic astrologer " of repute viz. Shri P. V. R. Narasimha Rao, who is the owner of the largest group of " Vedic-astrology " viz. vedic astrology--groups and also a member of this forum i.e. Jyotishgroup! The name of that program is JHora 7.33 and I have specifically clarifed it that the planetary data arrived at by me for January 10, 5114 BCE are just copied from the results of that very software! Do you mean to say that the software by Shri Rao is useless as compared to the software of Shri Bhatnagar, which is not his own actually? <Mr Kaul's post does not contain any cogent reasons but only criticism> To be doubly sure that I was also not arriving at my results in a hurry, I cross-chekced the results of Shri Narasimha Rao's software i.e. J Hora 7.33 with that of Swiss Ephemeris, which is, as on date, the most accurate program for astrological purposes of the past. Those results also tally exactly with that of JHora 7.33. As such, what more proofs do you want that the planetary positions arrived at by Shri Bhatnagar are wrong? <instead of simply dismissing the painstaking research done by others by using the derisive language that he has used> In fact it is you who is dismissing the painstaking research done by Shri Narasimha Rao apart from Swiss Ephemeris, without offering any valid proofs yourself that the results arrived at by Shri Bhatnagar are correct and that of the software by Shri Rao are wrong! <This is not acceptable I hope to others also on this list.This is not done> You are right! Making such sweeping statements without even having studied the original document properly is really not acceptable. And this certainly is not done! I am, as such, copying below the original document again to refresh your memory and would like to know your views especially about the following points: There are some impossible astrolnomical combinations in the Valmiki Ramayana, Balakanda, Adhyaya 18, and these are: 1) If Shri Ram was born in Mesha and Bharata in Mina, the latter would be either younger by eleven months or older by one month to the former? How do you reconcile that? 2. Why don't you tell the members as to how Shatrugana's and Lakshmana's sun can be in Karkata if the Sun of Bharata is in Mina, when both the brothers are younger to Bharata hardly by a day or so? 3. Then again, how can sun be in Mesha, Moon in Karkata and it be simultaneously Punarvasu nakshatra and Navmi tithi? Why don't you tell the forum membmers your resolution of such anachronisms. Pl. give your views point by point. Regards, A K Kaul , " hattangadi_suresh " <hattangadi_suresh wrote: > > Mr Kaul should give his own calculations to prove that the date arrived at is wrong and why it is wrong.Mr Kaul's post does not contain any cogent reasons but only criticism.Even his assumption that the date arrived at must be wrong is without any scientific argument.Mr Kaul please rebut each and every point made in arriving at the date of Ramayana by giving scientific(with references of scientific journals preferably) instead of simply dismissing the painstaking research done by others by using the derisive language that he has used.This is not acceptable I hope to others also on this list.This is not done. > ****** ******* ******** ********* ******** jyotirved [jyotirved] Friday, September 11, 2009 2:46 PM 'subash razdan' Dear Subashji, Thanks for forwarding me the full text of Shri Purshkar Bhatnagar's views about his own publication. A similar post/mail has appeared on several forums! " Vedic astronomers " have a symbiotic relation with " Vedic astrologers " and, as such, are hardly any better than them in exhibiting their ignorance of astronomy! And they are flaunting, like a talisman, software like Planetarium etc. to show to the whole world as to how ignorant they actually are about their own cultural matters, whether about the Ramayana or the Mahabharata. Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar has said in his book, as quoted by him " Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight and nine (1/18/8,9) that Shri Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month when the position of different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations and nakshatras (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii) Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi) Lunar month of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as Cancer (cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu (Gemini constellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon). This data was fed into the software. The results indicated that this was exactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC. Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7123 years back). As per the Indian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month and the time was around 12 to 1 noontime. This is exactly the time and date when Ram Navmi is celebrated all over India " . In several of his earlier posts, Shri Bhatnagar had talked of using " Planetarium " software. Let us analyze the actual facts. There is a program by P. V. R. Narasimha Rao, (owner, vedic astrology groups) named JHora. Its latest version, 7.33 calculates planetary longitudes, lagna, nakshatra etc. from about 5500 BCE to about 5500 AD rather quite accurately. It can be downloaded for free from the internet. Anybody can use in it any Ayanamsha including the " almighty " Lahiri or Ramana or even zero, which is euphemistically known as Sayana! Swiss Ephemeris, that is based on VSOP 87 and also DE/LE data, is as well quite accurate and calculates planetary longitudes, both sayana or nirayana, etc. for a similar period. That also can be downloaded free from the web or purchased for a nominal price for commercial purposes. Both these software tally almost exactly with the Vishnu program in HinduCalendar forum for tithi, nakshatra etc. from 10000 BCE to 12030 AD! Following are the " almighty " Lahiri details copied from the JHora 7.33 software for January 10, 5114 BCE (-5113 AD) for Ayodhya at Noon, LMT: 1. Natal Chart Shri Ram January 10, -5113 Time: 12:00:00 Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT) Place: 82 E 12' 00 " , 26 N 48' 00 " Ayodhya, India Altitude: 0.00 meters Lunar Yr-Mo: Parabhava - Phalguna Tithi: Sukla Sapthami (Sa) (48.25% left) Vedic Weekday: Thursday (Ju) Nakshatra: Rohini (Mo) (62.35% left) Yoga: Vishkambha (Sa) (11.29% left) Karana: Vanija (Ve) (96.49% left) Hora Lord: Moon (5 min sign: Le) Mahakala Hora: Moon (5 min sign: Cn) Kaala Lord: Saturn (Mahakala: Moon) Sunrise: 6:58:32 Sunset: 17:19:31 Janma Ghatis: 12.5612 Ayanamsa: 285-52-47.49 Sidereal Time: 16:35:26 Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Navamsa Lagna 14 Ta 52' 07.38 " Rohi 2 Ta Ta Sun - BK 26 Aq 48' 32.38 " PBha 3 Aq Ge Moon - PiK 15 Ta 01' 10.38 " Rohi 2 Ta Ta Mars - AmK 28 Ar 17' 42.38 " Krit 1 Ar Sg Mercury - AK 29 Cp 18' 42.32 " Dhan 2 Cp Vi Jupiter ® - MK 18 Le 51' 39.03 " PPha 2 Le Vi Venus ® - DK 1 Pi 59' 24.70 " PBha 4 Pi Cn Saturn - PK 13 Sc 47' 26.51 " Anu 4 Sc Sc Rahu - GK 22 Sg 16' 56.06 " PSha 3 Sg Li Ketu 22 Ge 16' 56.06 " Puna 1 Ge Ar **** **** ***** ***** ***** ***** Following are the so called Sayana details as per the same J Hora 7.33 software 2. Natal Chart Shri Ram January 10, -5113 Time: 12:00:00 Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT) Place: 82 E 12' 00 " , 26 N 48' 00 " Ayodhya, India Altitude: 0.00 meters Lunar Yr-Mo: Parabhava - Pushya Tithi: Sukla Sapthami (Sa) (48.25% left) Vedic Weekday: Thursday (Ju) Nakshatra: Poorvabhadra (Ju) (18.25% left) Yoga: Vyatipata (Ra) (23.08% left) Karana: Vanija (Ve) (96.49% left) Hora Lord: Moon (5 min sign: Le) Mahakala Hora: Moon (5 min sign: Cn) Kaala Lord: Saturn (Mahakala: Moon) Sunrise: 6:58:32 Sunset: 17:19:31 Janma Ghatis: 12.5612 Ayanamsa: 0-00-00.00 Sidereal Time: 16:35:26 Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Navamsa Lagna 0 Pi 44' 54.87 " PBha 4 Pi Cn Sun - PK 12 Sg 41' 21.93 " Mool 4 Sg Cn Moon - DK 0 Pi 53' 59.93 " PBha 4 Pi Cn Mars - PiK 14 Aq 10' 31.93 " Sata 3 Aq Aq Mercury - MK 15 Sc 11' 31.87 " Anu 4 Sc Sc Jupiter ® - GK 4 Ge 44' 28.58 " Mrig 4 Ge Sc Venus ® - BK 17 Sg 52' 14.25 " PSha 2 Sg Vi Saturn - AK 29 Le 40' 16.06 " UPha 1 Le Sg Rahu - AmK 8 Li 09' 45.60 " Swat 1 Li Sg Ketu 8 Ar 09' 45.60 " Aswi 3 Ar Ge ***** ***** **** ****** **** The (Sayana) planetary details as per the Swiss Ephemeris are: *** CHART ANALYSIS REPORT *** 3. Shri Ram - Male Chart DeltaT = +162894s; ET = 3:46:06 am Jan 12 5114 BC; JDE = -146454.342978 ST(0°) = 11:08:42; LST = 16:37:30; Ob = 24°10'19''; Eq.Time = -2m33s ACD(0h) = Oct 4 5114 BC; ACD(12h) = Apr 5 5114 BC CHART ANGLES Ascendant 01°Pi26'08'' Midheaven 11°Sg02'58'' CHART POINTS Mon 02°Pi29'03'' Sun 12°Sg48'44'' Mer 15°Sc19'34'' Ven 17°Sg48'30'' R Mar 14°Aq15'05'' Jup 04°Ge44'21'' R Sat 29°Le40'55'' Nod 09°Li03'37'' R SNo 09°Ar03'37'' R *** END REPORT *** You can see it for your self that there is not much difference between the Swiss Ephemeris data and that of the latest J.Hora. As claimed by Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar, The Valmiki Ramayana, Balakanda 18/8-9 actually says, " In the meantime six seasons (from the last Vasanta) rolled away after the sacrifice was over. Then on the ninth lunar day of the bright fortnight of Chaitra, the twelfth month after the conclusion of the sacrifices, when the asterism Punarvasu, presided over by Aditi, was in the ascendant and as many as five planets viz. the Sun, Mars, Saturn and Venus happened to be exalted (appeared in zodiacal signs of Mesha or Aries, Makara or Capricornus, Tula or Libra, Karka or Cancer and Mina or Pisces respectively), and Jupiter in conjunction with the moon appeared in the zodiacal sign of Karka, mother Kaushalya, the eldest wife of Dhasharatha, gave birth to a highly blessed son named Shri Ram, who was no other than the Lord of the universe.. " (Gita Press translation) The salient features of this " Divine " chart by Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar, however, are: 1. Janma month is neither Madhu nor Chaitra but the month of Sahasya and Margashirsha/Pausha! 2. Janma ritu is not Vasanta but Hemanta Ritu! 3. Janma tithi is Shukla Saptami instead of Shukla Navmi! 4. Janma Nakshatra is either Purvabhadra (Sayana) or Rohini (Lahiri) instead of Punarvasu! 5. Moon is neither in sayana nor in nirayana Karkata but in either Mina or Vrisha! 6. Sun is neither in nirayana nor in sayana Mesha but either in Dhanush or in Kumbha! 7. Lagna is neither sayana nor nirayana Karkata but either Mina or Vrisha! 8. Brihaspati is neither in Sayana nor in nirayana Karkata but in Mithuna or Simha! 9. Mangal is neither in Sayana nor in nirayana Makara but in Kumbha or Mesha 10. Shani is neither in Sayana nor in nirayana Tula but in Simha or Vrischika 11. Shukra is the only planet that can be said to be in Mina, that also provided that we presuppose that " almighty " Lahiri had incarnated even prior to " Bhatnagar Ram " since it is only as per Lahiri Ayanamsha that Shukra is in Mina! 12 Thus leave alone five planets being either exalted or in their own signs, not even a single planet is exalted or in its own sign! And the rest is history, as the saying goes, since if the birth particulars themselves are inaccurate to such an extent, it is futile to go into other details! So long live " Bhatnagar Ram " ! And I am sure " Vedic astrologers " will continue to delineate the chart of " Bhatnagar Ram " for ages together with correct predictions, since they can make correct predictions only from incorrect data! And the billion dollar question that no " Vedic astronomer " or " Vedic astrologer " can answer is as to how could Mesha etc. Rashis be included in the Valmiki Ramayana if they sre conspicuous by their absence in a much later work viz. the Mahabharata, ( " Paroskhya Professor's " Brahma Rashi notwithstanding!) as there were no rashis till the advent of Maya the mlechha, again, " parokshya professor's " visualization of spurious mantra as original in the Vedanga Jyotisha notwithstanding! But then people like you and me are helpless in the face of an avalanche of " proofs " by " prominent scholars " , thanks to their " philosophers' stones " like " Planetarium " software etc.! It also appears that these scholars like Dr. Vartak or " Parokshya Professor " or Pushkar Bhatnagar or Prafulla Vamana Mendaki etc. etc., have not read the original Valmiki Ramayana at all, since they would have at least given some explanation as to how Shri Ram could have Incarnated in fifth or even seventh millennium BCE, if He is supposed to have ruled for eleven thousand years for this is what the Valmiki Ramayana says, " Having served His kingdom for eleven thousand years, Shri Ram will ascend to Brahmaloka " (Balakanda 1/97--Gita Press translation) and " (Now that You have ruled for eleven thousand years, as desired by You Yourself, You will have now to ascend to Brahmaloka " (Uttarakanda 104/12--Gita Press translation). What is most pathetic is the statement by Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar " The following document is the 'MOST' authentic scientific work that does not need further scientific verification. " Obviously, some of the scholars consider themselves more exalted than the Vedic Seers or even Maharshi Valmiki and would not like their findings to be subjected to any peer review! The fact of the matter is that these astrological combinations in the Varlmiki Ramayana and Adhyatma Ramayana etc. are astronomically impossible and are interpolations of a much later date by some good for nothing jyotishi! This will be clear from: 1. It is practically impossible for anybody to have been or be born in Punarvasu nakshatra with the Moon in Karkata and Navmi tithi, with the sun in Mesha! 2. Similarly, as per the Valmiki Ramayana Balakanda 18/15-16, " Bharata of cheerful mind was born when the constellation Pushya was in the ascendant and the Sun had entered the zodiacal sign of Pisces, while the twin sons of Sumitra were born when the constellation Ashlesha was in the Ascendant and the sun had reached the meredian, touching the zodiacal sign of Karkata, i.e. Cancer " . (Gita Press translation) Anybody knowing even a bit of astronomy, can immediately see through the blunders committed by those good for nothing jyotishis who made such interpolations to prove their jyotisha prowess, that if the sun is in Mesha as in the case of Bhagwan Rama and in Mina in the case of Bharata, the latter is either younger by eleven months or elder by one month to the former, since Mesha follows Mina and not the other way round! 3. Similarly, if Bharata's sun is in Mina, and that of Lakshmana and Shatrugna in Karkata, they are either younger than Bharata by four months or elder to him by eight months! However, as per the same Valmiki Ramayana, all the four brothers are supposed to have been born within a gap of a day or two and not several months. 4. Last but not the least, almost all the â?oVedic astronomersâ? and â?oVedic astrologersâ? are of the view that Rama-Setu is hundreds of thousands years old as it was built by the Vanara-Sena of Bhagwan Ram! They are claiming the support of NASA also in such matters! Now if as per these very â?oVedic astronomersâ? and â?oVedic astrologersâ?, He Incarnated just about seven or nine thousand years back, what can be the fate of the plea pending in the Supreme Court of India can well be imagined! No " Vedic astrologer " has commented on such anachronisms in the Ramayana, simply because they would not then be able to make a fool of a common man with such words as, " Rama was exiled when He had Sade-Sati " or " even Bhagwan Ram was separated from His wife since He was a Mangalik as He had Mars in the seventh " and so on! But then this is Kaliyuga and that is why Goswami Tulsidas had said, in the Ramacharitamanasa, in Balakanda, 14th Doha: " Banchak Bhagat Kahai Ram ke, kinkar kanchan koh kama ke " . Aakhir paapi pet ka saval jo hai! With regards, Avtar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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