Subha/Paapa and Soumya/Kroora (On Seeing Deities from the 12th..)

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep,

 

Great question!

 

Even if Rahu and Ketu are together, their influence on the 12th house may be

different. One may dominate. So Rahu and Ketu can still give different results.

 

> So, no one can ever attain enlightenment, since if

> Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

 

The verse you refer to says:

 

kArakAMshAd.h vyaye ketau shubhakheTayutexite |

tadA tu jAyate muktiH sAyujyapadamApnuyAt.h || 65||

 

Literal translation is: " If Ketu is in the 12th house from AK's amsa, conjoined

or aspected by a subha planet, then liberation occurs and one joins god's lotus

feet. "

 

The words used in this verse and the next one are " subha " and " paapa " .

 

When Parasara defined these terms, he defined soumya (gentle) and kroora (harsh)

grahas withOUT reference to ascendant and he defined subha (auspicious/benefic)

and paapa (inauspicious/malefic) grahas with reference to ascendant. These terms

are translated as natural benefic/malefic and functional benefic/malefic in

English. Because both pairs of phrases are similar, people mix them up.

 

Jupiter is soumya, but he need not be subha. That depends on lagna (or other

reference used). Saturn is kroora, but he need not be paapa. That depends on

lagna.

 

Parasara used the terms soumya and kroora in some combinations and subha and

asubha/paapa in some. Please note that they are not interchangable!

Unfortunately, translators of Parasara weren't always consistent in their

translation, but I don't think a maharshi would mix up the two pairs of words

and use the wrong word. Take it as a functional benefic when he says subha and

take it as a functional malefic when he says paapa.

 

Soumya means one who is gentle and kroora means one who is harsh. Subha means

one who does good and asubha/paapa means one who does bad. A harsh person can do

you good and a gentle person can harm you.

 

Rahu is a kroora graha, but he can certainly be a subha graha in a chart!

 

I will leave it to you to figure out from which reference the functionality

(beneficence or maleficence) of a planet joining or aspecting Ketu in 12th

should be judged - lagna or AK, in rasi or vimsamsa etc.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

sohamsa , " vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent

wrote:

>

> Dear Narasimhaji,

> While what you say sounds compelling, you know that Rahu and Ketu are always

together in D-20. Did Parasara have verses that gave distinct results for Rahu

and for Ketu in 12th from AK? Why would he do so if he knew for certain that

they'll always be together? Please explain in detail. At least in one

translation I have:

>

> " If Ketu is in the 12th from Karak & #257; & #324; & #347;, receiving a Drishti from

a malefic, or is there yuti with a malefic, one will not attain full

enlightenment. "

>

> Clearly, he is talking about worship and spiritual practices here. So he must

be talking about D-20 according to your rules of inference. So, no one can ever

attain enlightenment, since if Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

>

> Regards,

>

> Sundeep

> >

> > In the chapter called " kaarakaamsa phala " in BPHS, Parasara mentioned the

deities worshipped based on the planets in the 12th from kaarakaamsha. For

example, Sun in 12th from AK shows a worshipper of Shiva and Moon in 12th from

AK shows a worshipper of Gouri.

> >

> > The term " kaarakaamsa " means " AK's amsa " . Amsa only means division. Which

amsa or division is Parasara referring to?

> >

> > Though people jumped to the conclusion that amsa means navaamsa by default,

there is one more important thing to consider here. At the onset itself,

Parasara clarified which amsas (divisions) are used for which purposes. He

clearly said " upaasanaayaaH viGYaanaM saadhyaM viMshati bhaagake " , meaning " the

knowledge of one's worship and spiritual practices is possible in D-20 " .

> >

> > If, having said that at the onset, he defines which deities are worshipped

based on the 12th house from AK in an " amsa " , can the amsa in question be

anything other than D-20?! After all, he clearly said one's upaasanaa is seen

from D-20. So the principles laid out later by Parasara for upaasanaa *must* be

referring to D-20 by " amsa " and *not* D-9 as people normally take.

> >

[Guest guest]

Namaste Karu,

 

Well, Parasara clearly said:

 

tatraarkashanibhUputraaH kShINenduraahuketavaH.

krUraaH sheShagrahaaH saumyaaH krUraH krUrayuto budhaH..

 

Meaning: Sun, Saturn, Mars, waning Moon, Rahu and Ketu are kroora (harsh)

planets and the rest are soumya (gentle). When with kroora planets, Mercury is

also kroora.

 

The soumya planets are the so-called natural benefics and kroora planets are the

so-called natural malefics.

 

Parasara defined shubha and paapa specifically based on the houses owned from

lagna. Subha clearly means functional benefic and paapa clearly means functional

malefic.

 

There seems to be a lot of confusion today regarding subha/paapa and

soumya/kroora planets. But this is fundamental issue and Parasara's teachings

are crystal clear.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

sohamsa , " Karu Heenkenda " <heen wrote:

>

> Hare Rama Krishna

> Dear Narasimha,

> There is only one Kroora graha. It is Sun who protect dharma without emotions.

Others are not Kroora, but Papa because their tamasic nature. Sun is Satvik and

not a Papi unless weak.

> Functional nature of planets is another thing.

> Best Wishes

> Karu

>

> sohamsa , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Dear Sundeep,

>

> Great question!

>

> Even if Rahu and Ketu are together, their influence on the 12th house may be

different. One may dominate. So Rahu and Ketu can still give different results.

>

> > So, no one can ever attain enlightenment, since if

> > Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

>

> The verse you refer to says:

>

> kArakAMshAd.h vyaye ketau shubhakheTayutexite |

> tadA tu jAyate muktiH sAyujyapadamApnuyAt.h || 65||

>

> Literal translation is: " If Ketu is in the 12th house from AK's amsa,

conjoined or aspected by a subha planet, then liberation occurs and one joins

god's lotus feet. "

>

> The words used in this verse and the next one are " subha " and " paapa " .

>

> When Parasara defined these terms, he defined soumya (gentle) and kroora

(harsh) grahas withOUT reference to ascendant and he defined subha

(auspicious/benefic) and paapa (inauspicious/malefic) grahas with reference to

ascendant. These terms are translated as natural benefic/malefic and functional

benefic/malefic in English. Because both pairs of phrases are similar, people

mix them up.

>

> Jupiter is soumya, but he need not be subha. That depends on lagna (or other

reference used). Saturn is kroora, but he need not be paapa. That depends on

lagna.

>

> Parasara used the terms soumya and kroora in some combinations and subha and

asubha/paapa in some. Please note that they are not interchangable!

Unfortunately, translators of Parasara weren't always consistent in their

translation, but I don't think a maharshi would mix up the two pairs of words

and use the wrong word. Take it as a functional benefic when he says subha and

take it as a functional malefic when he says paapa.

>

> Soumya means one who is gentle and kroora means one who is harsh. Subha means

one who does good and asubha/paapa means one who does bad. A harsh person can do

you good and a gentle person can harm you.

>

> Rahu is a kroora graha, but he can certainly be a subha graha in a chart!

>

> I will leave it to you to figure out from which reference the functionality

(beneficence or maleficence) of a planet joining or aspecting Ketu in 12th

should be judged - lagna or AK, in rasi or vimsamsa etc.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> sohamsa , " vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent@>

wrote:

> >

> > Dear Narasimhaji,

> > While what you say sounds compelling, you know that Rahu and Ketu are always

together in D-20. Did Parasara have verses that gave distinct results for Rahu

and for Ketu in 12th from AK? Why would he do so if he knew for certain that

they'll always be together? Please explain in detail. At least in one

translation I have:

> >

> > " If Ketu is in the 12th from Karak & #257; & #324; & #347;, receiving a Drishti

from a malefic, or is there yuti with a malefic, one will not attain full

enlightenment. "

> >

> > Clearly, he is talking about worship and spiritual practices here. So he

must be talking about D-20 according to your rules of inference. So, no one can

ever attain enlightenment, since if Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sundeep

> > >

> > > In the chapter called " kaarakaamsa phala " in BPHS, Parasara mentioned the

deities worshipped based on the planets in the 12th from kaarakaamsha. For

example, Sun in 12th from AK shows a worshipper of Shiva and Moon in 12th from

AK shows a worshipper of Gouri.

> > >

> > > The term " kaarakaamsa " means " AK's amsa " . Amsa only means division. Which

amsa or division is Parasara referring to?

> > >

> > > Though people jumped to the conclusion that amsa means navaamsa by

default, there is one more important thing to consider here. At the onset

itself, Parasara clarified which amsas (divisions) are used for which purposes.

He clearly said " upaasanaayaaH viGYaanaM saadhyaM viMshati bhaagake " , meaning

" the knowledge of one's worship and spiritual practices is possible in D-20 " .

> > >

> > > If, having said that at the onset, he defines which deities are worshipped

based on the 12th house from AK in an " amsa " , can the amsa in question be

anything other than D-20?! After all, he clearly said one's upaasanaa is seen

from D-20. So the principles laid out later by Parasara for upaasanaa *must* be

referring to D-20 by " amsa " and *not* D-9 as people normally take.

> > >

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

 

Namaskar Narasimha,

 

1.

This is the first definition of the nature of the planets given

by Parasara, at the start of the Grahaguna Swarupadiya, and I have no argument

on it. This sloka just explains the way the Grahas give and not consider any

relaitive concepts like GOD or BAD, + or -, malefic or benefic. Saumya

and Krura both can give results but Saumya with compassion, Krura without

imotion.

So from here we have two

groups Saumya and Krura. The best way to understand the meaning of krura is

understand Sun. Sun rules Law, and highst form of low is natural low; Dharma.

It has no imotion and we all have to accept it wether we like it or not.

 

2.

Then we come to end of the chapter, Parasara explains Guna of

grahas and we apply it to above explanation.

Let’s take Satvik

Grahas Guru, Chandra and Ravi. Guru and Chandra are Saumya and Satvik.

They are not only most protective grahas, but gives name, fame and all. Only

these two grahas considered best as they always GIVE AWAY to this world. Sun

satvik, but krura. It also give, but no immotion or compassion associate with

him.

 

3.

 

 

4.

Take Rajas Graha Sukra and unaflicted Budda. This two always

have desire and they give but they expecting something in return. These two

have special role in the chart controlling rajasik guna. They are important for

creation so not considered

 

 

 

 

 

Namaste

Karu,

 

 

 

 

 

Well,

Parasara clearly said:

 

 

 

 

 

tatraarkashanibhUputraaH

kShINenduraahuketavaH.

 

 

krUraaH

sheShagrahaaH saumyaaH krUraH krUrayuto budhaH..

 

 

 

 

 

Meaning:

Sun, Saturn, Mars, waning Moon, Rahu and Ketu are kroora (harsh) planets and

the rest are soumya (gentle). When with kroora planets, Mercury is also kroora.

 

 

 

 

 

The

soumya planets are the so-called natural benefics and kroora planets are the

so-called natural malefics.

 

 

 

 

 

Parasara

defined shubha and paapa specifically based on the houses owned from lagna.

Subha clearly means functional benefic and paapa clearly means functional

malefic.

 

 

 

 

 

There

seems to be a lot of confusion today regarding subha/paapa and soumya/kroora

planets. But this is fundamental issue and Parasara's teachings are crystal

clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Best

regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

 

 

 

---

In sohamsa ,

" Karu Heenkenda " <heen wrote:

>

> Hare Rama Krishna

> Dear Narasimha,

> There is only one Kroora graha. It is Sun who protect dharma without

emotions. Others are not Kroora, but Papa because their tamasic nature. Sun is

Satvik and not a Papi unless weak.

> Functional nature of planets is another thing.

> Best Wishes

> Karu

>

> sohamsa ,

Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Dear Sundeep,

>

> Great question!

>

> Even if Rahu and Ketu are together, their influence on the 12th house may

be different. One may dominate. So Rahu and Ketu can still give different

results.

>

> > So, no one can ever attain enlightenment, since if

> > Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

>

> The verse you refer to says:

>

> kArakAMshAd.h vyaye ketau shubhakheTayutexite |

> tadA tu jAyate muktiH sAyujyapadamApnuyAt.h || 65||

>

> Literal translation is: " If Ketu is in the 12th house from AK's amsa,

conjoined or aspected by a subha planet, then liberation occurs and one joins

god's lotus feet. "

>

> The words used in this verse and the next one are " subha " and

" paapa " .

>

> When Parasara defined these terms, he defined soumya (gentle) and kroora

(harsh) grahas withOUT reference to ascendant and he defined subha

(auspicious/benefic) and paapa (inauspicious/malefic) grahas with reference to

ascendant. These terms are translated as natural benefic/malefic and functional

benefic/malefic in English. Because both pairs of phrases are similar, people

mix them up.

>

> Jupiter is soumya, but he need not be subha. That depends on lagna (or

other reference used). Saturn is kroora, but he need not be paapa. That depends

on lagna.

>

> Parasara used the terms soumya and kroora in some combinations and subha

and asubha/paapa in some. Please note that they are not interchangable!

Unfortunately, translators of Parasara weren't always consistent in their

translation, but I don't think a maharshi would mix up the two pairs of words

and use the wrong word. Take it as a functional benefic when he says subha and

take it as a functional malefic when he says paapa.

>

> Soumya means one who is gentle and kroora means one who is harsh. Subha

means one who does good and asubha/paapa means one who does bad. A harsh person

can do you good and a gentle person can harm you.

>

> Rahu is a kroora graha, but he can certainly be a subha graha in a chart!

>

> I will leave it to you to figure out from which reference the

functionality (beneficence or maleficence) of a planet joining or aspecting

Ketu in 12th should be judged - lagna or AK, in rasi or vimsamsa etc.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> sohamsa ,

" vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Narasimhaji,

> > While what you say sounds compelling, you know that Rahu and Ketu are

always together in D-20. Did Parasara have verses that gave distinct results

for Rahu and for Ketu in 12th from AK? Why would he do so if he knew for

certain that they'll always be together? Please explain in detail. At least in

one translation I have:

> >

> > " If Ketu is in the 12th from

Karak & #257; & #324; & #347;, receiving a Drishti from a malefic, or is

there yuti with a malefic, one will not attain full enlightenment. "

> >

> > Clearly, he is talking about worship and spiritual practices here. So

he must be talking about D-20 according to your rules of inference. So, no one

can ever attain enlightenment, since if Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sundeep

> > >

> > > In the chapter called " kaarakaamsa phala " in BPHS,

Parasara mentioned the deities worshipped based on the planets in the 12th from

kaarakaamsha. For example, Sun in 12th from AK shows a worshipper of Shiva and

Moon in 12th from AK shows a worshipper of Gouri.

> > >

> > > The term " kaarakaamsa " means " AK's amsa " .

Amsa only means division. Which amsa or division is Parasara referring to?

> > >

> > > Though people jumped to the conclusion that amsa means navaamsa

by default, there is one more important thing to consider here. At the onset

itself, Parasara clarified which amsas (divisions) are used for which purposes.

He clearly said " upaasanaayaaH viGYaanaM saadhyaM viMshati bhaagake " ,

meaning " the knowledge of one's worship and spiritual practices is

possible in D-20 " .

> > >

> > > If, having said that at the onset, he defines which deities are

worshipped based on the 12th house from AK in an " amsa " , can the amsa

in question be anything other than D-20?! After all, he clearly said one's

upaasanaa is seen from D-20. So the principles laid out later by Parasara for

upaasanaa *must* be referring to D-20 by " amsa " and *not* D-9 as

people normally take.

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

Dear Narasimha

Namaskar

 

> Even if Rahu and Ketu are together, their influence on the 12th house may

be different. One may dominate. So Rahu and Ketu can still give different

results.

They are in same degree, with same aspect. How one dominate ?

In higher divisional charts, what is the meaning of these two

come together ? They are not separate in these charts means this pair always

indicate Swarbanu, one who was looking for Nectar just before cut the head off.

So in D20, role of nodes has some thing to do with searching nectar. I do not

think one will dominate.

Thanks

Karu

 

 

>

> > So, no one can ever attain enlightenment, since if

> > Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

>

> The verse you refer to says:

>

> kArakAMshAd.h vyaye ketau shubhakheTayutexite |

> tadA tu jAyate muktiH sAyujyapadamApnuyAt.h || 65||

>

> Literal translation is: " If Ketu is in the 12th house from AK's amsa,

conjoined or aspected by a subha planet, then liberation occurs and one joins

god's lotus feet. "

>

> The words used in this verse and the next one are " subha " and

" paapa " .

>

> When Parasara defined these terms, he defined soumya (gentle) and kroora

(harsh) grahas withOUT reference to ascendant and he defined subha

(auspicious/benefic) and paapa (inauspicious/malefic) grahas with reference to

ascendant. These terms are translated as natural benefic/malefic and functional

benefic/malefic in English. Because both pairs of phrases are similar, people

mix them up.

>

> Jupiter is soumya, but he need not be subha. That depends on lagna (or

other reference used). Saturn is kroora, but he need not be paapa. That depends

on lagna.

>

> Parasara used the terms soumya and kroora in some combinations and subha

and asubha/paapa in some. Please note that they are not interchangable!

Unfortunately, translators of Parasara weren't always consistent in their

translation, but I don't think a maharshi would mix up the two pairs of words

and use the wrong word. Take it as a functional benefic when he says subha and

take it as a functional malefic when he says paapa.

>

> Soumya means one who is gentle and kroora means one who is harsh. Subha

means one who does good and asubha/paapa means one who does bad. A harsh person

can do you good and a gentle person can harm you.

>

> Rahu is a kroora graha, but he can certainly be a subha graha in a chart!

>

> I will leave it to you to figure out from which reference the

functionality (beneficence or maleficence) of a planet joining or aspecting

Ketu in 12th should be judged - lagna or AK, in rasi or vimsamsa etc.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> sohamsa ,

" vedicastrostudent " <vedicastrostudent@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Narasimhaji,

> > While what you say sounds compelling, you know that Rahu and Ketu are

always together in D-20. Did Parasara have verses that gave distinct results

for Rahu and for Ketu in 12th from AK? Why would he do so if he knew for

certain that they'll always be together? Please explain in detail. At least in

one translation I have:

> >

> > " If Ketu is in the 12th from

Karak & #257; & #324; & #347;, receiving a Drishti from a malefic, or is

there yuti with a malefic, one will not attain full enlightenment. "

> >

> > Clearly, he is talking about worship and spiritual practices here. So

he must be talking about D-20 according to your rules of inference. So, no one

can ever attain enlightenment, since if Ketu is there, so must Rahu..

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sundeep

> > >

> > > In the chapter called " kaarakaamsa phala " in BPHS,

Parasara mentioned the deities worshipped based on the planets in the 12th from

kaarakaamsha. For example, Sun in 12th from AK shows a worshipper of Shiva and

Moon in 12th from AK shows a worshipper of Gouri.

> > >

> > > The term " kaarakaamsa " means " AK's amsa " .

Amsa only means division. Which amsa or division is Parasara referring to?

> > >

> > > Though people jumped to the conclusion that amsa means navaamsa

by default, there is one more important thing to consider here. At the onset

itself, Parasara clarified which amsas (divisions) are used for which purposes.

He clearly said " upaasanaayaaH viGYaanaM saadhyaM viMshati bhaagake " ,

meaning " the knowledge of one's worship and spiritual practices is

possible in D-20 " .

> > >

> > > If, having said that at the onset, he defines which deities are

worshipped based on the 12th house from AK in an " amsa " , can the amsa

in question be anything other than D-20?! After all, he clearly said one's

upaasanaa is seen from D-20. So the principles laid out later by Parasara for

upaasanaa *must* be referring to D-20 by " amsa " and *not* D-9 as

people normally take.

> > >