Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Dear Goelji, I think it is then best to agree to disagree. Nakshatras are linked to the Moon and not to the Sun. The Sun is always lined to the Rashis. The verse do not mention that the twins of Sumitra were born in Karkata Lagna. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 10/11/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Sunday, October 11, 2009, 6:04 AM As far as I could understand from the sloka given in Valmiki Ramayna: " Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. This also explains the birth of Lord Rama on Navami Thithi. Now truth is only knowm to God. Regards, G. K. Goel ancient_indian_ astrology sunil_bhattacharjya @ Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:34 -0700 [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Dear Goelji, Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> Revised Dating of Ramayana Period skbhattacharjya@ gmail.com Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology Cc: Jyotishgroup, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, WAVES-Vedic, USBrahmins@gro ups.com, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PM Dear Goelji, Kindly have a look at the following analysis. 1) Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies. Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis : 3) Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries. 4) Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries. 5) Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami. 6) The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth. 7) Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus. Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI, DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate which never dies. I have some observations: Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under: After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) , in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs (SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS- cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH) THE following OBSERVATION can be made: 1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries. 3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna. 4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer. As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 " The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born in pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. " It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra. This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far. It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres. Best regards, G. K. Goel Get a 360o view of the world, in perspectives only MSN India can offer. Try it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Dear Goelji, I think it is then best to agree to disagree. Nakshatras are linked to the Moon and not to the Sun. The Sun is always lined to the Rashis. The verse do not mention that the twins of Sumitra were born in Karkata Lagna. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 10/11/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Sunday, October 11, 2009, 6:04 AM As far as I could understand from the sloka given in Valmiki Ramayna: " Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. This also explains the birth of Lord Rama on Navami Thithi. Now truth is only knowm to God. Regards, G. K. Goel ancient_indian_ astrology sunil_bhattacharjya @ Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:34 -0700 [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Dear Goelji, Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> Revised Dating of Ramayana Period skbhattacharjya@ gmail.com Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology Cc: Jyotishgroup, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, WAVES-Vedic, USBrahmins@gro ups.com, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PM Dear Goelji, Kindly have a look at the following analysis. 1) Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies. Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis : 3) Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries. 4) Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries. 5) Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami. 6) The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth. 7) Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus. Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI, DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate which never dies. I have some observations: Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under: After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) , in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs (SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS- cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH) THE following OBSERVATION can be made: 1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries. 3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna. 4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer. As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 " The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born in pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. " It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra. This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far. It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres. Best regards, G. K. Goel Get a 360o view of the world, in perspectives only MSN India can offer. Try it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Dear Goelji, This is further to the earlier mail on the subject. It was regarding the interpretation of the verse in the context of the birth of the twins of Sumitra. The relevant verse is : puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 You have interpreted it as : " Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. " In the last mail I said as follows: It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. It appears to me that Bharata was born on the previous day and the twins were born on the following day as it would have taken one day for the Moon to to go from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. If we go by your interpretation the twins were born slightly more than three months after the birth of Bharata as the Sun would have required that much time (ie. slightly more than three months) to go from the end of the Mina Rashi to the Karkata Rashi. So there may be some ambiguity in the birthday of the twins but not in that of Lord Rama andd Bharata. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: Jyotishgroup , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Sunday, October 11, 2009, 3:12 PM Dear Goelji, I think it is then best to agree to disagree. Nakshatras are linked to the Moon and not to the Sun. The Sun is always lined to the Rashis. The verse do not mention that the twins of Sumitra were born in Karkata Lagna. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 10/11/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Sunday, October 11, 2009, 6:04 AM As far as I could understand from the sloka given in Valmiki Ramayna: " Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. This also explains the birth of Lord Rama on Navami Thithi. Now truth is only knowm to God. Regards, G. K. Goel ancient_indian_ astrology sunil_bhattacharjya @ Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:34 -0700 [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Dear Goelji, Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> Revised Dating of Ramayana Period skbhattacharjya@ gmail.com Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology Cc: Jyotishgroup, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, WAVES-Vedic, USBrahmins@gro ups.com, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PM Dear Goelji, Kindly have a look at the following analysis. 1) Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies. Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis : 3) Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries. 4) Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries. 5) Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami. 6) The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth. 7) Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus. Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI, DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate which never dies. I have some observations: Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under: After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) , in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs (SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS- cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH) THE following OBSERVATION can be made: 1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries. 3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna. 4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer. As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 " The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born in pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. " It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra. This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far. It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres. Best regards, G. K. Goel Get a 360o view of the world, in perspectives only MSN India can offer. Try it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Dear Goelji, This is further to the earlier mail on the subject. It was regarding the interpretation of the verse in the context of the birth of the twins of Sumitra. The relevant verse is : puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 You have interpreted it as : " Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. " In the last mail I said as follows: It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. It appears to me that Bharata was born on the previous day and the twins were born on the following day as it would have taken one day for the Moon to to go from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. If we go by your interpretation the twins were born slightly more than three months after the birth of Bharata as the Sun would have required that much time (ie. slightly more than three months) to go from the end of the Mina Rashi to the Karkata Rashi. So there may be some ambiguity in the birthday of the twins but not in that of Lord Rama andd Bharata. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: Jyotishgroup , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Sunday, October 11, 2009, 3:12 PM Dear Goelji, I think it is then best to agree to disagree. Nakshatras are linked to the Moon and not to the Sun. The Sun is always lined to the Rashis. The verse do not mention that the twins of Sumitra were born in Karkata Lagna. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 10/11/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Sunday, October 11, 2009, 6:04 AM As far as I could understand from the sloka given in Valmiki Ramayna: " Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. This also explains the birth of Lord Rama on Navami Thithi. Now truth is only knowm to God. Regards, G. K. Goel ancient_indian_ astrology sunil_bhattacharjya @ Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:34 -0700 [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Dear Goelji, Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> Revised Dating of Ramayana Period skbhattacharjya@ gmail.com Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology Cc: Jyotishgroup, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, WAVES-Vedic, USBrahmins@gro ups.com, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PM Dear Goelji, Kindly have a look at the following analysis. 1) Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies. Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis : 3) Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries. 4) Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries. 5) Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami. 6) The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth. 7) Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus. Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI, DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate which never dies. I have some observations: Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under: After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) , in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs (SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS- cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH) THE following OBSERVATION can be made: 1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries. 3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna. 4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer. As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 " The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born in pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. " It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra. This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far. It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres. Best regards, G. K. Goel Get a 360o view of the world, in perspectives only MSN India can offer. Try it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Dear Goelji, Yes, I am also of the opinion that all the brothers were born when the Sun was in Pisces. Now coming to " Kuleera " it does mean the snake by the name " Kuleera " and so also does the word " Sarpa " mean snake. It could be that " Kuleera Sarpa " (ie. the snake called " Kuleera " ) is used here to mean the Ashlesha Nakshatra. The meaning will be obvious if we realign the words in the second line of the verse and we know that in Sanskrit the words can be repositioned to make a better rhyme and that is what the poet had done it the original text. I believe the Sanskrit grammarians will not object to this. The verse now appears as follows: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | kuLIre saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 . To me it appears that during the Ramayana days (ie. around the 9th millennium BCE) Karkata was used to denote the Rashi and its use was specifically to denote Lagna. Rashi in the astrological sense came to be used only about six thousand years later after the Mahabharata days. Kuleera might not have been used to mean cancer in the days of Ramayana as we have seen that while describing the birth of Lord Rama the word Karkata was used for Cancer. Secondly Lord Rama was born at noon time in Punarvasu Nakshatra (ie. when the Moon was in punarvasu nakshatra). Bharat was born in the Pushya Nakshatra and the Twins in the Ashlesha nakshatra. So there must be more that 24 hours gap between the birth of Lord Rama and the Twins. If we go by your interpretation then the Twins were born past the noon time, ie.in the afternoon. Then how can we reconcile with the wording : " abhyudite ravau " , which to my mind means " at the time the Sun was rising " ? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 10/13/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:46 AM Dear Sunil ji, Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impression that preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata. The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having better access TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days: Now we try to understand the verse; puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WAS BORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerful AND PLEASENT. saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE) abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS. THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES. MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUN WAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRA AS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA. THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREE ARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA, GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSE AND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN 11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER) REGARDS, G. K. Goel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Dear Goelji, Yes, I am also of the opinion that all the brothers were born when the Sun was in Pisces. Now coming to " Kuleera " it does mean the snake by the name " Kuleera " and so also does the word " Sarpa " mean snake. It could be that " Kuleera Sarpa " (ie. the snake called " Kuleera " ) is used here to mean the Ashlesha Nakshatra. The meaning will be obvious if we realign the words in the second line of the verse and we know that in Sanskrit the words can be repositioned to make a better rhyme and that is what the poet had done it the original text. I believe the Sanskrit grammarians will not object to this. The verse now appears as follows: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | kuLIre saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 . To me it appears that during the Ramayana days (ie. around the 9th millennium BCE) Karkata was used to denote the Rashi and its use was specifically to denote Lagna. Rashi in the astrological sense came to be used only about six thousand years later after the Mahabharata days. Kuleera might not have been used to mean cancer in the days of Ramayana as we have seen that while describing the birth of Lord Rama the word Karkata was used for Cancer. Secondly Lord Rama was born at noon time in Punarvasu Nakshatra (ie. when the Moon was in punarvasu nakshatra). Bharat was born in the Pushya Nakshatra and the Twins in the Ashlesha nakshatra. So there must be more that 24 hours gap between the birth of Lord Rama and the Twins. If we go by your interpretation then the Twins were born past the noon time, ie.in the afternoon. Then how can we reconcile with the wording : " abhyudite ravau " , which to my mind means " at the time the Sun was rising " ? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 10/13/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:46 AM Dear Sunil ji, Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impression that preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata. The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having better access TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days: Now we try to understand the verse; puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WAS BORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerful AND PLEASENT. saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE) abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS. THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES. MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUN WAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRA AS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA. THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREE ARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA, GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSE AND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN 11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER) REGARDS, G. K. Goel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Dear Goelji, 1) I know that Kuleera has been used to mean Cancer by Varahamihira, Sphurudhwaja and others about 2500 years ago. But how can one know that this terminology was used in the times of Lord Rama? We have seen that Karkata was mentioned in connection with Lord Rama's birth. I think all the references to show the use of Kuleera to mean Karkata rashi could be of much later date. Moreover the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra is also symbolised by Snake. So it is quite possible that Kullere Sarpe was used to specify Aslesha (as the snake from the cancer) and thus to distinguish it from the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra. 2) If we take the twins to have been born in the Cancer Lagna the twins could have been born in the afternoon and not in the morning? This could be incomapatibe with the statement " abhyudite ravau " 3) Or could it be that there was some time gap in days or months so that both the conditions of morning birth in Ayodhya and Cancer Lagna got satisfied? 4) May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the answer. Anyway even if some grey areas regarding the birth-time of the Twins remain we have the satisfaction that we coiuld sort out the data on Lord Rama's birth, which is vey important from the chronological point of view. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Wed, 10/14/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 12:16 AM  Dear SIR, Aslesha Nakshatra is called Sarpa, The Cancer sign is called Kulir ,even this is dictionary meaning as well jataka classics calls Cancer as Kulir As such twins were born in Cancer Lagna and Moon was in Aslesha. I could understand that much. I study Valmiki Ramayan so that I could improve my conduct. I have not made any study from Astronomy or Astrological point of view. Many thanks for your mail. Beat regards, G. K. Goel  ancient_indian_ astrology CC: ; vedic astrology; vedic_research_ institute sunil_bhattacharjya @ Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:07:56 -0700 Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period  Dear Goelji, Yes, I am also of the opinion that all the brothers were born when the Sun was in Pisces. Now coming to " Kuleera " it does mean the snake by the name " Kuleera " and so also does the word " Sarpa " mean snake. It could be that " Kuleera Sarpa " (ie. the snake called " Kuleera " ) is used here to mean the Ashlesha Nakshatra. The meaning will be obvious if we realign the words in the second line of the verse and we know that in Sanskrit the words can be repositioned to make a better rhyme and that is what the poet had done it the original text. I believe the Sanskrit grammarians will not object to this. The verse now appears as follows: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | kuLIre saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 . To me it appears that during the Ramayana days (ie. around the 9th millennium BCE) Karkata was used to denote the Rashi and its use was specifically to denote Lagna. Rashi in the astrological sense came to be used only about six thousand years later after the Mahabharata days. Kuleera might not have been used to mean cancer in the days of Ramayana as we have seen that while describing the birth of Lord Rama the word Karkata was used for Cancer. Secondly Lord Rama was born at noon time in Punarvasu Nakshatra (ie. when the Moon was in punarvasu nakshatra). Bharat was born in the Pushya Nakshatra and the Twins in the Ashlesha nakshatra. So there must be more that 24 hours gap between the birth of Lord Rama and the Twins. If we go by your interpretation then the Twins were born past the noon time, ie.in the afternoon. Then how can we reconcile with the wording : " abhyudite ravau " , which to my mind means " at the time the Sun was rising " ? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 10/13/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology Cc: , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:46 AM  Dear Sunil ji, Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impression that preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata. The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having better access TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days: Now we try to understand the verse; puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WAS BORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerful AND PLEASENT. saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE)   abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15  THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS.  THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN  RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN  AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES. MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUN WAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRA AS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA. THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREE ARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA, GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSE AND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN 11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER) REGARDS, G. K. Goel  From the events that change the world, to the ones that just shouldn’t be missed. Catch it all on MSN India. Drag n’ drop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Dear Goelji, 1) I know that Kuleera has been used to mean Cancer by Varahamihira, Sphurudhwaja and others about 2500 years ago. But how can one know that this terminology was used in the times of Lord Rama? We have seen that Karkata was mentioned in connection with Lord Rama's birth. I think all the references to show the use of Kuleera to mean Karkata rashi could be of much later date. Moreover the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra is also symbolised by Snake. So it is quite possible that Kullere Sarpe was used to specify Aslesha (as the snake from the cancer) and thus to distinguish it from the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra. 2) If we take the twins to have been born in the Cancer Lagna the twins could have been born in the afternoon and not in the morning? This could be incomapatibe with the statement " abhyudite ravau " 3) Or could it be that there was some time gap in days or months so that both the conditions of morning birth in Ayodhya and Cancer Lagna got satisfied? 4) May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the answer. Anyway even if some grey areas regarding the birth-time of the Twins remain we have the satisfaction that we coiuld sort out the data on Lord Rama's birth, which is vey important from the chronological point of view. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Wed, 10/14/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 12:16 AM  Dear SIR, Aslesha Nakshatra is called Sarpa, The Cancer sign is called Kulir ,even this is dictionary meaning as well jataka classics calls Cancer as Kulir As such twins were born in Cancer Lagna and Moon was in Aslesha. I could understand that much. I study Valmiki Ramayan so that I could improve my conduct. I have not made any study from Astronomy or Astrological point of view. Many thanks for your mail. Beat regards, G. K. Goel  ancient_indian_ astrology CC: ; vedic astrology; vedic_research_ institute sunil_bhattacharjya @ Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:07:56 -0700 Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period  Dear Goelji, Yes, I am also of the opinion that all the brothers were born when the Sun was in Pisces. Now coming to " Kuleera " it does mean the snake by the name " Kuleera " and so also does the word " Sarpa " mean snake. It could be that " Kuleera Sarpa " (ie. the snake called " Kuleera " ) is used here to mean the Ashlesha Nakshatra. The meaning will be obvious if we realign the words in the second line of the verse and we know that in Sanskrit the words can be repositioned to make a better rhyme and that is what the poet had done it the original text. I believe the Sanskrit grammarians will not object to this. The verse now appears as follows: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | kuLIre saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 . To me it appears that during the Ramayana days (ie. around the 9th millennium BCE) Karkata was used to denote the Rashi and its use was specifically to denote Lagna. Rashi in the astrological sense came to be used only about six thousand years later after the Mahabharata days. Kuleera might not have been used to mean cancer in the days of Ramayana as we have seen that while describing the birth of Lord Rama the word Karkata was used for Cancer. Secondly Lord Rama was born at noon time in Punarvasu Nakshatra (ie. when the Moon was in punarvasu nakshatra). Bharat was born in the Pushya Nakshatra and the Twins in the Ashlesha nakshatra. So there must be more that 24 hours gap between the birth of Lord Rama and the Twins. If we go by your interpretation then the Twins were born past the noon time, ie.in the afternoon. Then how can we reconcile with the wording : " abhyudite ravau " , which to my mind means " at the time the Sun was rising " ? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 10/13/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period ancient_indian_ astrology Cc: , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:46 AM  Dear Sunil ji, Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impression that preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata. The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having better access TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days: Now we try to understand the verse; puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WAS BORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerful AND PLEASENT. saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE)   abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15  THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS.  THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN  RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN  AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES. MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUN WAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRA AS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA. THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREE ARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA, GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSE AND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN 11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER) REGARDS, G. K. Goel  From the events that change the world, to the ones that just shouldn’t be missed. Catch it all on MSN India. Drag n’ drop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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