Guest guest Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Dear Goelji, Kindly have a look at the following analysis. 1) Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies. Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis : 3) Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries. 4) Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries. 5) Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami. 6) The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth. 7) Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus. Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7329 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise (and that means in in Cancer Lagna). This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote: gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel RE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period , , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , indiaarchaeology Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI, DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate which never dies. I have some observations: Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under: After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) , in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs (SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS- cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH) THE following OBSERVATION can be made: 1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries. 3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna. 4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer. As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 " The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born in pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. " It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra. This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far. It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres. Best regards, G. K. Goel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Dear Shri Gopal Krishna Goel-ji, Gopal Krishna ki jai! In your original post of Oct 8 you have said: " 1. There may be some reasons to believe, but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was referred in the text. In that case Sun can be either in Pisces or Aries " .” Since you are a scholar of the Valmiki Ramayana, Ramacharitamanasa and Adyatma Ramayana, you must appreciate that there are a few astronomical impossibilities in this statement: 1. The Valmiki Ramayana 1/18/8 has said tato yajnye sampate tu ritoonam shat samatyayuh tatashchai dwadashe maase chaitre navamike tithav The Gita Press translation says, “In the meantime six seasons (each consisting of two months) rolled away after the sacrifice was over. Then on the ninth lunar day (of the bright fortnight) of Chaitra, the twelfth month after the conclusion of the sacrifice, .... " Since twelve months had elapsed after the sacrifice was over, which was in Vasanta Ritiu, it was therefore the first month of Vasanta Ritu, which is known as Madhu as per the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc., when Bhagwan Ram incarnated. It is the same month that is also known as Chaitra in the VJ. Though in the VR no mention has been made of " Madhu " but only Chaitra, however, the Adyatma Ramayana, 1/3/14 has said categorically: 2. Madhumase site pakshye navamyam karkate shubhe Punarvasu rikshya sahite uchhasthe graha panchake Which means, “In the month of Madhu, in shukla pakshya, navmi tithi, karkata (lagna), Punarvasu nakshatra and five planets either exalted or in their own rashis”. Similarly, Goswami Tulsidas is very sure when he says 3. Navmi tithi madhumasa puneeta sukal pachha abhijta haripreeta i.e. “It was the holy Madhumasa, navmi tithi, shkula pakshya and abhijit, which is dear to God”. It is thus clear that it was the first month of Vasanta Ritu, the month of Madhu-cum-Chaitra definitely. It was also a Shukla paksha navmi. 4. The Yajurveda says, “madhuschai madhavaschai vasantikav ritoo” i.e. Madhu and Madhava are the months of Vasanta Ritu. Now if it was Madhumasa, and if, against all the prevailing logic and reasons, we presume that Mesha etc. rashis did exist in India in about 7300 BCE, then Madhumasa and Sun in Mina---and not in Mesha----can exist simultaneously only if the sun is in the so called sayana Mina Rashi! 5. If you presume that it is a so called nirayana rashi, which “Vedic astrologers” call euphemistically sidereal rashis, then we have to take into account the Ayanamsha which is without any rhyme or reason linked to precession by these very “Vedic astrologers”. “almighty” Lahiri Ayanamsha as on December 4, 7323 BCE, the date of birth of Bhagwan Ram as per Dr. Vartak, was, plus 103°-41’. It means the “almighty” Lahiri sun would have to be somewhere in Karkata, even if we presume that it was Madhumasa on December 4, 7323 BCE, which it was not actually, as we shall see shortly! Thus linking of Madhumasa-cum-Chaitra to a so called nirayana Mina or Mesha rashi as back as 7323 BCE is in itself a self-defeating premise even if we ignore other anachronisms like Punarvasu nakshatra cum shukla paksha navmi of Madhumasa, with the moon in Karkata and the sun in Mina/Mesha etc.! You have also said, “DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not question his findings”. 6. We must come out of the habit of taking “findings” of “authorities” at their face value and not questioning their veracity! It is our blind faith in Maya the mlechha’s dictum that the Surya Sidhanta was a “revelation” by Surya Bhagwan that has landed the entire Hindu community in such a mess that we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days! If Dr. Vartak had even an elementary knowledge of astronomy, he should have known that if it was Madhu-cum-Chaitra masa, it could never have been so called sayana sun in Mesha but only in Mina. As he also believes in so called sidereal rashis, he should have known that a nirayana mina rashi in Madhu-cum-Chaitra would take place only if it was away by about 180 degrees from Sayana Mina Surya i.e. about 72 multiplied by 180 = 12960 years before 285 AD, when the so called nirayana Lahiri zodiac and the so called sayana zodiacs are supposed to have coincided! Thus “Vartak Ram” should have incarnated in about 13000 BCE (and not in 7323 BCE) if his sun was in Lahiri Mina, since it was only then that it could have coincided with Madhu-cum-Chaitra! I may also mention here that the actual longitudes of the sun, Moon and Rahu etc. on December 4, 7323 BCE were: Sayana sun was actually about 18 degrees in Tula (about 2 degrees in Lahiri Kumbha)----as against the Valmiki/AR sun either in Mina or Mesha according to you and other jyotishis! Sayana Moon was actually about zero degrees in Makar (about 13 degrees in Lahiri Mesha)---as against Karkata Rashi as per the VR/AR etc. Sayana Mean Rahu about two degrees in Mithuna (about 15 degrees in Lahiri Kanya)---as against Mina Rashi of jyotishis! It was Shukla Paksha Shashthi (and not navmi) besides Sayana Uttarashada and Lahiri Magha nakshatra on December 4, 7323 BCE, without any corrections for Delta Time. Even if we presume that the difference in Delta Time was about seven days in 7000 BCE, things are not going to be much different! It was neither the month of Madhu-cum-Chaitra nor Vasanta Ritu! Thus everything on December 4, 7323 BCE was contrary to what is supposed to have been given in the VR/AR and what Dr. Vartak claims to have deciphered on that date! All the above details can be checked from Vishnu.exe program that anybody can download for free from hinducalendar forum and calculate vara (weekday), tithi, nakshatra, yoga, karna and the longitudes of the sun, moon and mean Rahu (both sayana and Lahiri) from 10000 BCE to 12030 AD in a jiffy! I, therefore, think that we should close this Rama-janma-kundali prakran, since there should not be any doubt in anybody’s mind now that the month of Madhu-cum-Chaitra cannot go with the sun in Mina Rashi, unless it is a so called sayana Mina Rashi, and “Vedic jyotishis” are not going to accept it at any cost. We must also bear in mind that there were no Mesha etc. rashis anywhere in the world in about 3000 BCE at the earliest, so to presume that someone could have calculated Bhagwan Ram’s birth chart in 7323 BCE is extremely farfetched, to say the least! It actually presents a very poor picture of the entire Hindu community, as to how gullible we can be. THE JYOTISHA JARGON ABOUT THE PLANETARY POSITION IN THE VALMIKI AND ADYATMA RAMAYANA IS THUS AN INTERPLATION AND NOTHING BUT AN INTERPOLATION BY SOME GOOD FOR NOTHING JYOTISHI. Gopal Krishna ki jai. A K Kaul , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Goelji, > > Kindly have a look at the following analysis. > > 1) > Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. > 2) > Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies. > > Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis : > > 3) > Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries. > 4) > Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries. > 5) > Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami. > 6) > The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth. > 7) > Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus. > > Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7329 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. > > This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise (and that means in in Cancer Lagna). This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. > > Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > --- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel g.k.goel wrote: > > gopal krishna goel g.k.goel > RE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period > , , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , indiaarchaeology > Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM > Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI, > DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not > question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate > which never dies. > I have some observations: > Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under: > After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born > in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) , > in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs > (SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR > OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS- > cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH) > THE following OBSERVATION can be made: > 1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born > in dark or bright half of the lunar month. > 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. > In that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries. > 3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi > were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna. > 4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use > having 62 months of 30 solar days each. > 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, > Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in > own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, > In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of > of sloka regarding five planets. > 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of > Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer. > As regard following sloka: > > puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH | > saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 > > " The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born in > pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born > in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. " > It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra. > > This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far. > It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres. > Best regards, > > > G. K. Goel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Dear Shri Gopal Krishna Goelji, Gopal Krishna ki jai! In continuation of my earlier post on the above topic, pl. read as follows the relevant paragraph " If Dr. Vartak had even an elementary knowledge of astronomy, he should have known that if it was Madhu-cum-Chaitra masa, it could never have been so called sayana sun in Mesha but only in Mina. As he also believes in so called sidereal rashis, he should have known that a nirayana mina rashi in Madhu-cum-Chaitra would take place only if it was away by about 360 (instead of 180) degrees from Sayana Mina Surya i.e. about 72 multiplied by 360 (instead of 180) = 25920 (in place of 12960) years before 285 AD, when the so called nirayana Lahiri zodiac and the so called sayana zodiacs are supposed to have coincided! Thus " Vartak Ram " should have incarnated in about 26000 (instead of 13000) BCE (and not in 7323 BCE) if his sun was in Lahiri Mina, since it was only then that it could have coincided with Madhu-cum-Chaitra in the hoary past! Gopal Krishna ki Jai A K Kaul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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