Jyotishis Vs Shri Avtar Krishen Kaul - 2

[Guest guest]

Dear Kaul Ji

 

 

 

1. Ayanamsha

 

 

 

If we have to discuss ayanamsha and different zodiacal beginning points - of the

same zodiac (called by many as different zodiacs - sayana and nirayana) we have

to discuss nakshathras – benchmarking. Do you believe in those ?

 

Due you think the charecteristics assigned to various nakshathras and the

related myths are just assumptions ?

 

 

 

2. Inorder to discuss name relationships – Drekkana etc – we have to discuss

nakshathras again. As you know one nakshathra has 4 padas. They span over one

drekkana.(4 x 3.20 degrees). 12 such 10 degrees forms 120 degrees which is 1/3rd

of the Zodiac. Can we think it is accident. The one Purusha – gets divided into

Shiva and Shakthi. The vertical – Ardha Nareeshwara concept. This is Hora.

 

The horizontal division of the pindanda into three – ruled by Agastya , Durvasa

and Narada are the drekkanas. If we can explain this using our philosophy, how

does it matter if the name has Greek origin/Link (Rose is Rose)?

 

Navamshas are the nava pranas – there are pramanas for this. Nvamsha position

shows the placement of prana within 9 of 108 navamsha divisions.

 

 

No one can say we had only this and the rest was borrowed etc etc. Nothing can

be fitted on an adhoc basis into a system which is WHOLE. Either the system is

Full or it is Not. Either it fits fully or doesn't fit. Our understanding of

Vargas and our approach in analysing those may not be complete. But this does

not mean it is wrong. It cannot mean certain entity of a system was newly

introduced.

 

 

 

Vargas are not like a multi storied building, where we can errect separate

stories as and when we like. It is talking about a concentric plane with

different circles. Like the ripple , it starts from the centre and extends until

the outer. We should understand that if an anatomy teacher draws separate human

organ charts, those independent charts cannot function in isolation. It is only

for our understanding. Similarly SOUND has different manifested forms, but they

are the one and the same. Depending on our level of evolution, we can

listen/hear. So is Vargamshas. If Rashi is there, there will be Vargamshas. We

should know that there are different rules defined for different fields /planes.

Hrishis have given physical rules for gauging physical principles. When we mix,

we start moving away from truth.

 

 

But Shri Kaul does this mean our shastra is incomplete, because our

understanding is incomplete ? Because we have difference in opinion?

 

3. Can you please say, if you have astrological experience, why Mercury in Kanya

Rashi in a Kendra, gives special abilities to individuals ? Why Brihaspati

behaves differently, in Makara and Dhanu/Meena/Karka. What were your

observations.

 

 

Lot more to say – regarding 360 day year, 10 day Egyptian weeks , link with

Drekkanas , Dasha Calculations etc but later.

 

Thanks

Pradeep

[Guest guest]

Shri Vijaydas Pradeep ji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

Thank you for your response.

 

<Ayanamsha>

 

This term was coined by Munjala for the first time in his Laghumanasa

(around 10th century AD). This was to rectify the blunders in the

calculations of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha!

 

The SS has said " Bhanor Makar Sankranteh shanmasa uttarayana,

karkyadestathaiva syat shanmasa dakshinayanam " which means that the six

months of Uttarayana start from the day of Makar Sankranti, when the day

is the shortest and the six months of Dakshinayna start with Karkata

Sankrantih when the day is the longest (Pl. see 'no subject' doc for

complete references). Thus the day of Makar Sankranti should have

coincided with the shortest day of the year as per the SS calculations

as well. Since the calculatoins of the SS are absolutely erroneous,

they did not tally with the " visible phenoemnea " i.e. Makar Sanrkanti

did not fall on the shortest day of the year nor did karkata Sankranti

fall on the longest day of the year and so on!

 

Scholars like Munjala could see that something was wrong with the

calculations and he advised that one arc-munite per year from Shaka 444

must be added to the Surya Sidhanta longitudes to make them drik-tulya.

This difference of 60 ardc seconds per year from Shaka 444 was called

Ayanamsha for the first time in Indian astronomy i.e. Sidhanta Jyotisha

in tenth century AD!

 

Alberuni has praised this effort of Munjala highly in his " Alberuni's

India " and declared further that Utpala of Kashmir (known as Bhatotpala,

famous for his commentaris on the Brihat Samhita etc. " and other

jyotishis had followed this system i.e. adding the ayanamsa to Surya

Sidhanta longitudes for making them accurate so that they tallied with

the visible phenomena like the Winter Solstice or Vernal Equinox etc.

 

This process continued for several centuries. This is clear from the

commentator K.S. Shukla's translation of Laghumanasa (INSA, New Delhi,

1999) with the result that panchangas were made as per the so called

sayana longitudes.

 

Somehow, Ganesha Daivajnya of sixteenth century AD put the cart before

the horse in his Grahalaghava and advised to do exactly opposite to what

Munjala had advised i.,e he advised that we must subtract one arc-minute

per year from Shaka 444 from the true i.e. Sayana longitudes so as to

make them tally with the Surya Sidhanta!

 

It is the same practice for which Hindu jyotishis fell hook, line and

sinker since Grahalaghava was the easiest karna grantha and they did not

bother about its accuracy or otherwise!

 

At the time of Saha Calendar Reform Committee in 1952, " almighty " Lahiri

was more worried about the sale of his Panjika (Bangla) and Ephemeris

(English) than the real dharmashastra or anything else! He hoodwinked

the members of the Committee, as he was its Secretary, and invented an

ayaamsha that was nearest to the Grahalghava ayanamsha as on that date.

He invented it by claiming that the Vernal Equinox of 285 AD was

opposite Chitra Star and that is why he would take that year as the

starting year when the " two zodiacs coincided " ! Thus just as the Hindus

had been made a fool of by Maya the mlechha, they were made a worse fool

by Ganesha Davajnya and then ultimately by Lahiri the " almighty " .

 

So you can rest assured that the so called Ayanamsha is neither

scientific nor as per shastras, but a concoction because of one or the

other reason!

 

Regarding , " Vargas " , it is a scientific fact that Mesha, Vrisha etc.

Rashis are non-existent imaginary divisioins of an imaginary " circle of

animals " astronomically!

 

Just as Rashis have been imported from the Greeks, vargas also were

imported from them ---as is clear from Sphujidwaja's Yavana Jatakam!

 

Personally, I am happy that the real Vamadevas did not " invent " any such

non-existent divisions, since I would have to hang my head in shame then

for having given credence to something that does not exist even in

imagination! The real Vamadevas were down to earth Rishis, who were the

loftiest by way of Brahmajnyana and also the subtlest by way of

perfoming Ashvamedha yajnyas at one and the same time!

 

They did not believe in making, much less reading, horoscopes, whatever

the so called Parasharas and Vamadevas may say!

 

Jai Shri Ram

 

A K Kaul

, " Vijayadas " <vijayadas_pradeep

wrote:

>

> Dear Kaul Ji

>

>

>

> 1. Ayanamsha

>

>

>

> If we have to discuss ayanamsha and different zodiacal beginning

points - of the same zodiac (called by many as different zodiacs -

sayana and nirayana) we have to discuss nakshathras – benchmarking.

Do you believe in those ?

>

> Due you think the charecteristics assigned to various nakshathras and

the related myths are just assumptions ?

>

>

>

> 2. Inorder to discuss name relationships – Drekkana etc – we

have to discuss nakshathras again. As you know one nakshathra has 4

padas. They span over one drekkana.(4 x 3.20 degrees). 12 such 10

degrees forms 120 degrees which is 1/3rd of the Zodiac. Can we think it

is accident. The one Purusha – gets divided into Shiva and Shakthi.

The vertical – Ardha Nareeshwara concept. This is Hora.

>

> The horizontal division of the pindanda into three – ruled by

Agastya , Durvasa and Narada are the drekkanas. If we can explain this

using our philosophy, how does it matter if the name has Greek

origin/Link (Rose is Rose)?

>

> Navamshas are the nava pranas – there are pramanas for this.

Nvamsha position shows the placement of prana within 9 of 108 navamsha

divisions.

>

>

> No one can say we had only this and the rest was borrowed etc etc.

Nothing can be fitted on an adhoc basis into a system which is WHOLE.

Either the system is Full or it is Not. Either it fits fully or doesn't

fit. Our understanding of Vargas and our approach in analysing those may

not be complete. But this does not mean it is wrong. It cannot mean

certain entity of a system was newly introduced.

>

>

>

> Vargas are not like a multi storied building, where we can errect

separate stories as and when we like. It is talking about a concentric

plane with different circles. Like the ripple , it starts from the

centre and extends until the outer. We should understand that if an

anatomy teacher draws separate human organ charts, those independent

charts cannot function in isolation. It is only for our understanding.

Similarly SOUND has different manifested forms, but they are the one and

the same. Depending on our level of evolution, we can listen/hear. So is

Vargamshas. If Rashi is there, there will be Vargamshas. We should know

that there are different rules defined for different fields /planes.

Hrishis have given physical rules for gauging physical principles. When

we mix, we start moving away from truth.

>

>

> But Shri Kaul does this mean our shastra is incomplete, because our

understanding is incomplete ? Because we have difference in opinion?

>

> 3. Can you please say, if you have astrological experience, why

Mercury in Kanya Rashi in a Kendra, gives special abilities to

individuals ? Why Brihaspati behaves differently, in Makara and

Dhanu/Meena/Karka. What were your observations.

>

>

> Lot more to say – regarding 360 day year, 10 day Egyptian weeks ,

link with Drekkanas , Dasha Calculations etc but later.

>

> Thanks

> Pradeep

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Kaul Ji

 

Thank you for the time and detailed explanation.

 

1. Ayanamsha.

 

One cannot disagree that, there are difference in opinion amongst astrologers,

as it is a fact. As shri Chandra Hari has rightly observed, there are still many

open questions regarding the choosing of reference star. His disagreement with

Lahiri is also clear.

 

However the main point is ,if you have astrological experience - can you please

check the charts of K.N.Rao(Malavya-Hamsa), K.Chandrahari(Malavya),Sanja

Rath(Hamsa) etc for sthanabala and corresponding yogas. If their works/efforts

are in line with definitions from classical texts - what could be an inference ?

 

Even if the Ayanamsha values are not precise, they are not exceptionally wrong.

In other words the planet/Rashi calculations are correct. But if they are marked

w.r to a moving equinox, the results will be different.Do you agree?

 

Moreover, i am not sure whether anyother astrological school(desha) proposed

(mesha-aswini) as the beginning of head.Sign+Star.

 

2. Rashis /Vargas Origin

 

Yes they are imaginary BUT against the background of stars. Varahamihira has

stated that these(Rashi Chakra) are out of Kalpana. The philosophical base is

also explained in Brihat jataka.

 

We may also note that the whole creation process is desire/kalpana from a higher

angle.

 

Moreover if reference for dwadasha aditya is present, then 12 X 30 is also

understandable.Each Rashi has a philosophical angle. Rashis 1-8 forms the bodily

realm and are bordered by Bhumi Putra, the senapati. It is not an accident.

Rashis 9,10,11,12 ruled by Saturn and Jupiter are higher realms. We can use them

to ''walk'' -material karma extinction or ''realize'' as the yogi does(yogic

posture - imagine position of thighs/knees/ankle/feet)!.

 

Each Rashi is thus a natural bhava.9,10,11,12 is intimately connected with other

rashis. Will write later,regarding the link and why, Rashi = Bhava.

 

Moolam is root, Moolam is junction between Gudam and thighs.You will find the

airavata in that junction - Pictorial representations cannot be

corrupted(Kundalini).Jyeshta and Indra can also be seen here. These are not

accidents.

 

For a human being, Rashi chakra positions of planets , are showing different

evolutionary stages. The very Karka and Makara can be material as well as

spiritual,based on evolution. That is the beauty.

 

Brihaspati w.r to one plane, reaches the culmination - material expansion/mind

realm in Makara.This will mark a turning point. This is the reason for Shankaras

insight when caught by crocodile/Makara - Renunciate. Thus Aditya's movement

will give life to Rashis and take the Indra to many rashis.Each Rashi will

provide different planes of environment,based on Atmas evolution.

 

Bhishma and his wait on Sarasayya (Dhanu) is only for the movement of Sun into

Makara (Uttarayana).This Kalpana is also not an accident for me.

 

I am sure that you are well learned. The Rashis are without chethana. So are our

bodies. But where do they get the chetana. It is the same spirit. The realized

souls were able to correlate.

 

Yes there are many gaps. But can we rule out the realization/revelation of seers

because of the gaps?.We may work towards their rectification.

 

Chandrahari has mentioned about indian influence on roman calendrical names.

Kalantaram - Calendar, Saptambaram-September, Ashtambaram, Navambaram and

Dashambram (October,November and December as the 8th 9th and 10th divisions of

ambaram-sky).Thus we can never conclude based on names.

 

Thanks

Pradeep

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote:

>

>

> Shri Vijaydas Pradeep ji,

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Thank you for your response.

>

> <Ayanamsha>

>

> This term was coined by Munjala for the first time in his Laghumanasa

> (around 10th century AD). This was to rectify the blunders in the

> calculations of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha!

>

> The SS has said " Bhanor Makar Sankranteh shanmasa uttarayana,

> karkyadestathaiva syat shanmasa dakshinayanam " which means that the six

> months of Uttarayana start from the day of Makar Sankranti, when the day

> is the shortest and the six months of Dakshinayna start with Karkata

> Sankrantih when the day is the longest (Pl. see 'no subject' doc for

> complete references). Thus the day of Makar Sankranti should have

> coincided with the shortest day of the year as per the SS calculations

> as well. Since the calculatoins of the SS are absolutely erroneous,

> they did not tally with the " visible phenoemnea " i.e. Makar Sanrkanti

> did not fall on the shortest day of the year nor did karkata Sankranti

> fall on the longest day of the year and so on!

>

> Scholars like Munjala could see that something was wrong with the

> calculations and he advised that one arc-munite per year from Shaka 444

> must be added to the Surya Sidhanta longitudes to make them drik-tulya.

> This difference of 60 ardc seconds per year from Shaka 444 was called

> Ayanamsha for the first time in Indian astronomy i.e. Sidhanta Jyotisha

> in tenth century AD!

>

> Alberuni has praised this effort of Munjala highly in his " Alberuni's

> India " and declared further that Utpala of Kashmir (known as Bhatotpala,

> famous for his commentaris on the Brihat Samhita etc. " and other

> jyotishis had followed this system i.e. adding the ayanamsa to Surya

> Sidhanta longitudes for making them accurate so that they tallied with

> the visible phenomena like the Winter Solstice or Vernal Equinox etc.

>

> This process continued for several centuries. This is clear from the

> commentator K.S. Shukla's translation of Laghumanasa (INSA, New Delhi,

> 1999) with the result that panchangas were made as per the so called

> sayana longitudes.

>

> Somehow, Ganesha Daivajnya of sixteenth century AD put the cart before

> the horse in his Grahalaghava and advised to do exactly opposite to what

> Munjala had advised i.,e he advised that we must subtract one arc-minute

> per year from Shaka 444 from the true i.e. Sayana longitudes so as to

> make them tally with the Surya Sidhanta!

>

> It is the same practice for which Hindu jyotishis fell hook, line and

> sinker since Grahalaghava was the easiest karna grantha and they did not

> bother about its accuracy or otherwise!

>

> At the time of Saha Calendar Reform Committee in 1952, " almighty " Lahiri

> was more worried about the sale of his Panjika (Bangla) and Ephemeris

> (English) than the real dharmashastra or anything else! He hoodwinked

> the members of the Committee, as he was its Secretary, and invented an

> ayaamsha that was nearest to the Grahalghava ayanamsha as on that date.

> He invented it by claiming that the Vernal Equinox of 285 AD was

> opposite Chitra Star and that is why he would take that year as the

> starting year when the " two zodiacs coincided " ! Thus just as the Hindus

> had been made a fool of by Maya the mlechha, they were made a worse fool

> by Ganesha Davajnya and then ultimately by Lahiri the " almighty " .

>

> So you can rest assured that the so called Ayanamsha is neither

> scientific nor as per shastras, but a concoction because of one or the

> other reason!

>

> Regarding , " Vargas " , it is a scientific fact that Mesha, Vrisha etc.

> Rashis are non-existent imaginary divisioins of an imaginary " circle of

> animals " astronomically!

>

> Just as Rashis have been imported from the Greeks, vargas also were

> imported from them ---as is clear from Sphujidwaja's Yavana Jatakam!

>

> Personally, I am happy that the real Vamadevas did not " invent " any such

> non-existent divisions, since I would have to hang my head in shame then

> for having given credence to something that does not exist even in

> imagination! The real Vamadevas were down to earth Rishis, who were the

> loftiest by way of Brahmajnyana and also the subtlest by way of

> perfoming Ashvamedha yajnyas at one and the same time!

>

> They did not believe in making, much less reading, horoscopes, whatever

> the so called Parasharas and Vamadevas may say!

>

> Jai Shri Ram

>

> A K Kaul

> , " Vijayadas " <vijayadas_pradeep@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kaul Ji

> >

> >

> >

> > 1. Ayanamsha

> >

> >

> >

> > If we have to discuss ayanamsha and different zodiacal beginning

> points - of the same zodiac (called by many as different zodiacs -

> sayana and nirayana) we have to discuss nakshathras – benchmarking.

> Do you believe in those ?

> >

> > Due you think the charecteristics assigned to various nakshathras and

> the related myths are just assumptions ?

> >

> >

> >

> > 2. Inorder to discuss name relationships – Drekkana etc – we

> have to discuss nakshathras again. As you know one nakshathra has 4

> padas. They span over one drekkana.(4 x 3.20 degrees). 12 such 10

> degrees forms 120 degrees which is 1/3rd of the Zodiac. Can we think it

> is accident. The one Purusha – gets divided into Shiva and Shakthi.

> The vertical – Ardha Nareeshwara concept. This is Hora.

> >

> > The horizontal division of the pindanda into three – ruled by

> Agastya , Durvasa and Narada are the drekkanas. If we can explain this

> using our philosophy, how does it matter if the name has Greek

> origin/Link (Rose is Rose)?

> >

> > Navamshas are the nava pranas – there are pramanas for this.

> Nvamsha position shows the placement of prana within 9 of 108 navamsha

> divisions.

> >

> >

> > No one can say we had only this and the rest was borrowed etc etc.

> Nothing can be fitted on an adhoc basis into a system which is WHOLE.

> Either the system is Full or it is Not. Either it fits fully or doesn't

> fit. Our understanding of Vargas and our approach in analysing those may

> not be complete. But this does not mean it is wrong. It cannot mean

> certain entity of a system was newly introduced.

> >

> >

> >

> > Vargas are not like a multi storied building, where we can errect

> separate stories as and when we like. It is talking about a concentric

> plane with different circles. Like the ripple , it starts from the

> centre and extends until the outer. We should understand that if an

> anatomy teacher draws separate human organ charts, those independent

> charts cannot function in isolation. It is only for our understanding.

> Similarly SOUND has different manifested forms, but they are the one and

> the same. Depending on our level of evolution, we can listen/hear. So is

> Vargamshas. If Rashi is there, there will be Vargamshas. We should know

> that there are different rules defined for different fields /planes.

> Hrishis have given physical rules for gauging physical principles. When

> we mix, we start moving away from truth.

> >

> >

> > But Shri Kaul does this mean our shastra is incomplete, because our

> understanding is incomplete ? Because we have difference in opinion?

> >

> > 3. Can you please say, if you have astrological experience, why

> Mercury in Kanya Rashi in a Kendra, gives special abilities to

> individuals ? Why Brihaspati behaves differently, in Makara and

> Dhanu/Meena/Karka. What were your observations.

> >

> >

> > Lot more to say – regarding 360 day year, 10 day Egyptian weeks ,

> link with Drekkanas , Dasha Calculations etc but later.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Pradeep

> >

>