Krishna Mishra's Navamsa Verse (Critique on Nadi Navamsa..)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Souvik and others,

 

> For those you are interested to read more, may refer to his articles in his

(Shanmukha's) blog.

> http://sutramritam.blogspot.com/

>

> It is true that this is the same Navamsa referred to by Pt. Rath as " Nadi

Navamsa " .

 

Absolutely. Though defined in slightly different language, both are identical.

The Krishna Mishra navamsa (or Jaimini navamsa) chart defined in the articles of

Shanmukha is absolutely *identical* to what Pt Rath introduced as " Nadi

navamsa " .

 

* * *

 

As I said, this is an asymmetric chart with different signs represented

unequally in it. Some signs appear 12 times, some 9 times and some 6 times,

instead of all signs appearing 9 times overall. THAT makes no sense whatsoever

and is quite illogical, irrespective of the caliber of the scholars who taught

it. It tells you something is amiss.

 

* * *

 

It is possible that Krishna Mishra's verse quoted by Shanmukha is misunderstood.

As a Sanskrit scholar, I can certainly see it meaning the following, which is

slightly different from how Shanmukha interpreted it. But that slight difference

in detail changes the complexion completely and makes it logical.

 

My independent interpretation of Krishna Mishra's verse is as follows:

 

" The nine parts of a movable/fixed/dual sign are mapped to nine signs starting

from the 1st/9th/5th sign from it, respectively. The nine parts of the sign are

considered in zodiacal/anti-zodiacal order in odd/even signs, respectively. "

 

This is subtly different from the standard interpretation that Shanmukha went

with, but note how it changtes the equation. The second Krishna Mishra verse

given by Shanmukha also says that amsas in even rasis are reckoned

anti-zodiacally, but it does not say the mapped signs are reckoned

anti-zodiacally. So my interpretation fits with both the verses.

 

Let me show how this changes the mapping, using an example:

 

The nine parts of Ar reckoned zodiacally go into the nine signs starting from

Ar, i.e. Ar, Ta, .., Sc, Sg.

 

The nine parts of Ta reckoned anti-zodiacally within Ta go into the nine signs

starting from Cp, i.e. Cp, Aq, ..., Le, Vi. In other words, 26Ta40-30Ta00 goes

to Cp, 23Ta20-26Ta40 goes to Aq, 20Ta00-23Ta20 goes to Pi, ..., 3Ta20-6Ta40 goes

to Le and 0ta0-3Ta20 goes to Vi.

 

Then the nine parts of Ge are reckoned zodiacally again and mapped to the nine

signs starting Li, i.e. Li, Sc, ..., Ta, Ge.

 

The nine parts of Cn reckoned anti-zodiacally within Cn go into the nine signs

starting from Cn, i.e. Cn, Le, ..., Aq, Pi. In other words, 26Cn40-30TCn00 goes

to Cn, 23Cn20-26Cn40 goes to Le, 20Cn00-23Cn20 goes to Vi, ..., 3Cn20-6Cn40 goes

to Aq and 0Cn0-3Cn20 goes to Pi.

 

And so on.

 

* * *

 

Such an interpretation of Krishna Mishra's Sanskrit verse is certainly tenable.

And, it does not *bias* the chart towards some signs like the standard

interpretation. All signs appear exactly 9 times in the list of 108 navamsas.

THAT would be logical.

 

To find amsas in Ta in standard interpretation, we are starting from Cp and

going in reverse and mapping the nine parts of Ta (0Ta0-3Ta20, 3Ta20-6Ta40,

6ta40-10Ta0 etc) to Cp, Sg, Sc etc. It results in some signs repeated too many

times and some signs missing out.

 

In my interpretation, the signs mapped to are Cp, Aq, Pi etc as in Pararsara's

navamsa, but the parts within the sign that are mapped to these signs are

reversed in order (26Ta40-30Ta0, 23Ta20-26Ta40, 20Ta0-23Ta20 etc).

 

This small twist, which is perfectly tenable with Krishna Mishra's language,

makes things far more logical. You do not want a navamsa chart in which not all

signs appear 9 times in the list of 108 navamsas!

 

* * *

 

I wasn't sure why I felt compelled to write a critique on this topic. I just

followed my inner inspiration faithfully, even without understanding why that

action was required. NOW, I think I understand why I was inspired to get into

this. The inner inspiration now tells me that my dharma with topic is finally

fulfilled and I can move on...

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

---- Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan wrote:

> Dear PVNR=ji,

>

> Thanks for sharing.

>

> The young talent and the co-author of JHora from the last version, Shanmukha

has written a beautiful article on this Navamsa (aka Krishna Mishra Navamsa,

Jamini Navamsa by Sri Irangati Ranganacharya).

>

> Provided below are the links to his articles published in SA.

>

> http://www.scribd.com/doc/19874893/Jaimini-Navamsa-Part-1-NI

> http://www.scribd.com/doc/19183735/30True-Jaimini-Navamsa-Revealed-2

>

> For those you are interested to read more, may refer to his articles in his

(Shanmukha's) blog.

> http://sutramritam.blogspot.com/

>

> It is true that this is the same Navamsa referred to by Pt. Rath as " Nadi

Navamsa " .

>

> Regards

>

> Souvik

>

> jhora , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > > In other words, some signs come more than some other signs in this

> > > chart. In all the divisional charts defined by rishis and classics,

> > > we see all signs getting equal coverage overall. In D-9 sequence,

> > > all signs appear 9 times; in D-10 sequence, all signs appear 10

> > > times; and so on. Pt Rath's D-9 sequence is illogical.

> > >

> > > Krishna Mishra Navamsa also has jumps in it, but it is better

> > > structured with logical jumps in such a way that all signs get

> > > equal coverage overall.

> >

> > I had in mind " Kaalachakra navamsa " , which has a few specific kinds of

jumps, but ended up mis-typing " Krishna Mishra Navamsa " . My apologies.

> >

> > In fact, the new navamsa chart christened by Pt Rath as " Nadi Navamsa " is

nothing but Krishna Mishra navamsa already available in Jagannatha Hora

software!

> >

> > BTW, my assertion about " all the divisional charts defined by rishis " has

two exceptions - hora chart that has only Cn and Le and trimsamsa chart that

skips Cn and Le. Even in those charts, all the signs *appearing* in the chart

have an equal probability. It is only in this new navamsa chart defined by Pt

Rath that some signs are more likely than others. For example, a planet is twice

as likely to be in Sg or Ge than in Vi or Pi.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> >

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > Spirituality:

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> >

> >

> > ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > Someone sent me a link to Pt Sanjay Rath's multimedia presentation on

" Nadi Navamsa " and asked for my comments. You can access the presentation at:

> > >

> > > http://www.sohamsa.com/dbc/nadinavamsha/

> > >

> > > I will share my critique on it.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Definition

> > >

> > > Chandra Kala Nadi verse 5753 in book 3 defines navamsa as follows: " In Ar,

Le and Sg, start from Ar. In Cp, Ta and Vi, start from Cp. In Li, Aq and Ge,

start from Li. In Cn, Sc and Pi, start from Cn. "

> > >

> > > There is absolutely no indication in the verse of going anti-zodiacally in

any of the above cases and only the start sign is mentioned. So, by default, it

must mean we start from the given sign and go zodiacally. This is just the

regular Parasara navamsa! In other words, the nadi verse quoted by Pt Rath

merely defines Parasara's navamsa. In fact, Santhanam's translation interprets

it the same way, i.e. consistent with Parasara's navamsa!

> > >

> > > Now, Pt Rath says that you go anti-zodiacally for even signs because they

have female energy. That is not mentioned by Nadi. That is his own

extrapolation. Moreover, this sequence is quite oddly constructed:

> > >

> > > Ar Ta Ge Cn Le Vi Li Sc Sg : Cp Sg Sc Li Vi Le Cn Ge Ta : Li Sc Sg Cp Aq

Pi Ar Ta Ge : Cn Ge Ta Ar Pi Aq Cp Sg Sc : Ar Ta Ge ...

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Badly Structured

> > >

> > > Unlike other navamsa variations (and various other divisional charts for

that matter), the distribution across the twelve signs is *unequal* in Pt Rath's

" Nadi Navamsa " mapping:

> > >

> > > Ar - 9 times, Ta - 12 times, Ge - 12 times, Cn - 9 times,

> > > Le - 6 times, Vi - 6 times, Li - 9 times, Sc - 12 times,

> > > Sg - 12 times, Cp - 9 times, Aq - 6 times, Pi - 6 times

> > >

> > > In other words, some signs come more than some other signs in this chart.

In all the divisional charts defined by rishis and classics, we see all signs

getting equal coverage overall. In D-9 sequence, all signs appear 9 times; in

D-10 sequence, all signs appear 10 times; and so on. Pt Rath's D-9 sequence is

illogical.

> > >

> > > If navamsas go from Ar to Sg in Ar and they pretty much cover the same

signs backwards in Ta, what is the need to go just one sign up to Cp and then

start coming backwards? What is the jump from Ta to Li? Krishna Mishra Navamsa

also has jumps in it, but it is better structured with logical jumps in such a

way that all signs get equal coverage overall.

> > >

> > > The chart invented by Pt Rath is essentially a badly structured chart that

is NOT granted by any classic. Pt Rath seems to have come up with it, in order

to solve a mystery that simply does not exist in my view. It is structurally

very weak and illogical and not in the same league as the other charts we have

seen before.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Motivation

> > >

> > > The whole research is motivated by a verse in Chandra Kala Nadi. Verse

2115 in book 1 can litereally be translated as: " if Sun is in debilitated amsa

and Taurus, the second dasa will give thread ceremony. "

> > >

> > > Pt Rath notes that a planet in Taurus cannot be in Libra navamsa and comes

up with a new navamsa chart calculation to allow that. However, there are

several possible interpretations of the verse without having to design a new

chart:

> > >

> > > (1) Amsa does not mean navamsa, but a different divisional chart (e.g.

dwadasamsa, vimsamsa etc).

> > > (2) The verse means that Sun in Li amsa and Sun in Ta amsa, give thread

ceremony in the 2nd dasa. In other words, Sun has to be in a Venusian amsa. This

is certainly a tenable interpretation.

> > > (3) Kalachakra navamsa, which can be derived from the Kalachakra dasa

tables given by Parasara, allows Li navamsa in Ta! As you go across the zodiac

from Ar to Pi and take 9 navamsas in each, the 12x9=108 navamsas go as Ar, Ta,

...., Aq, Pi; Sc, Li, ..., Cp, Sg; Ar, Ta, ..., Aq, Pi; Sc, Li, ..., Cp, Sg; and

so on. Thre nakshatras give navamsas (3x4=12) in the savya chakra (zodiacal

cycle) and three nakshatras give navamsas in apasavya chakra (anto-zodiacal

cycle) and so on. This way, navamsas in Ta will be Cp, Aq, Pi, Sc, Li, Vi, Cn,

Le, Ge. So Li navamsa comes in Ta!

> > > (4) There is an error in the manuscripts as Santhanam suspected.

> > >

> > > Given different ways in which the verse can be explained, there is no real

motivation to come up with whole new calculations just to explain it.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Example - Abraham Lincoln

> > >

> > > He died in Saturn-Saturn antardasa. Pt Rath questions how Saturn in

navamsa lagna could have killed him.

> > >

> > > One wonders why he is seeing death from navamsa. He says death is an

internal thing and not an external thing. Because of his theory that internal

things are seen from nadi navamsa (i.e. his newly created chart) and external

things are seen from Pararsara navamsa and because he wants to justify death in

Saturn dasa based on nadi navamsa but not Parasara navamsa, he makes death into

an internal thing and not an external thing.

> > >

> > > But death is internal *as well as* external. After all, it's not like the

world does not know it when one dies!!

> > >

> > > Actually, forget navamsa, which is not really the chart of death. Take

rasi chart, the chart of physical body. It must surely show death. Saturn is

lagna lord in a quadrant. Why did he kill? It makes no sense.

> > >

> > > Lincoln has two planets in lagna, while Moon is in an inimical sign in

12th. Lagna is much stronger than Moon. Thus, Vimsottari dasa from lagna is far

more appropriate for him. Parasara never said dasas are only from Moon's star.

They can be from the star of Moon or lagna. Based on lagna Vimsottari, which is

far far more appropriate here, Mercury dasa started in 1965 February and he died

2 months later. Mercury is the 8th lord in lagna with 7th lord. He is a maraka

using classical rules of Parasara. So Lincoln died as soon as a classical maraka

dasa started.

> > >

> > > Instead of making lagna lord of rasi chart (Saturn) a maraka simply

because he is in the 7th house in a newly constructed chart, let us stick to

simple principles and accept 8th lord in lagna with 7th lord (Mercury) as a

maraka, irrespective of navamsa.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Example - A.R. Rahman ( " Jai ho " composer)

> > >

> > > Indian composer A.R. Rahman became popular in the Dwisaptati sama dasa of

Mars (1998-2007). Pt Rath asked why Mars made him so successful despite being in

the 8th house in navamsa. He pointed out that Mars in 10th house in nadi navamsa

and said that explains his " siddhi " .

> > >

> > > Questions arise: What does he mean by siddhi, which he says is " internal "

and hence seen in nadi navamsa? How does Pt Rath know that Rahman got this

siddhi in Mars dasa? If he is concluding it by externally looking at the quality

of his compositions or their success, isn't then this " siddhi " an external

thing? Why is it only internal? Why is this " siddhi " seen in navamsa and not

siddhamsa (D-24) or some other chart?

> > >

> > > Moreover, he is composing as well in Mercury dasa (since 2007). In fact,

his international fame (e.g. Jai ho from " Slumdog Millionnaire " ) came in Mercury

dasa. Mercury is 8th lord in 7th in both Parasara navamsa and " nadi navamsa " .

Why does he continue to maintain " siddhi " , compose well and increase fame in

this dasa?

> > >

> > > Now, let us simply address the basic question - why this success in Mars

dasa?

> > >

> > > Though Mars is in 8th in Parasara navamsa, he is lagna lord. Lagna lord in

8th can give sudden rise. Navamsa is the chart of poorvapunya. Lagna lord is

always beneficial. So his poorvapunya gives him sudden and unexpected rise. In

rasi, Mars is the 6th lord in 8th with 12th lord. This is VRY and shows rising

to great heights after suffering. VRY does not necessarily show getting

" undeserved " success after someone dies as Pt Rath said in the presentation. It

shows rising to great and unexpected heights after suffering.

> > >

> > > In any case, dasamsa is the real chart for this. In D-10, Mars is 10th and

5th lord and a yogakaraka. He is in keertipada (A5). Though he is in 8th,

yogakaraka in 8th gives sudden fame and sudden rise.

> > >

> > > Success in Mars dasa makes sense without resorting to nadi navamsa.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Example - Rabindranath Tagore

> > >

> > > He questions how Jupiter can kill, because he is lagna lord in 12th in

navamsa. With his " nadi navamsa " , Jupiter is 2nd and 5th lord in 2nd. He says

that explains death in Jupiter-Jupiter dasa.

> > >

> > > However, death cannot be justified just based on navamsa. Rasi chart must

show it. Jupiter is the lagna lord exalted in 5th. How can his dasa and

antardasa give death? Obviously, he is using a wrong dasa to see death.

> > >

> > > Pt Rath used Dwisaptati sama dasa for Rahman and not Vimsottari. So he

does use conditional dasas when they are applicable? Why doesn't he then use

Sataabdika dasa here, as lagna is in vargottama??

> > >

> > > If we use Lagna Sataabdika dasa for vargottama lagna, we see that

Saturn-Venus antardasa killed him. Saturn is a malefic in an inimical sign

aspecting 8th house and 3rd house, while Venus is the 8th lord in 2nd and

aspecting 8th. This fits Parasara's criteria for marakatwa very well.

> > >

> > > Let us not ignore the true marakas associated with the 8th house and

convert lagna lord of rasi chart exalted in the 5th house into a maraka, simply

because he is in the 2nd house in a new chart.

> > >

> > > Even wife's death is clear. Jupiter is the 7th lord from the arudha pada

of 7th lord and his Sataabdika dasa killed wife. Antardasa was that of Sun, who

is a malefic in 3rd with Rahu.

> > >

> > > As for his Nobel prize, Mars-Saturn gave it as per lagna Sataabdika dasa.

In D-10, Mars is yogakaraka in 11th aspecting 5th. Saturn is 7th lord with 5th

lord Jupiter and exchanges results. So both the planets are associated with 5th.

If we do not insist on seeing the events from navamsa and use the correct chart

(D-10), it makes good sense. In any case, Pt Rath did not really have any

convincing logic using nadi navamsa.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Nadi navamsa, Nadis and Chakras

> > >

> > > Simply because he " sees " a mystery in a " nadi " text and " solves " it by

defining a new chart, he seems to jump to the conclusion that this chart shows

internal " nadis and chakras " and death. He never justifies why this chart should

show " nadis and chakras " , though he makes that assertion several times.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Internal vs External

> > >

> > > After saying that Parasara navamsa shows external things and nadi navamsa

shows internal things, he shows how Parasara navamsa does not explain Knighthood

and Nobel prize in Tagore's chart and how nadi navamsa shows it. He explains it

saying " you get recognition for what *you* do and not what somebody else does "

and thus makes recognition into an internal thing. This blurs the distinction

between internal and external. On one hand, he says " manifestation of the entire

external world is from Parasara's navamsa " and yet says Knighthood and Nobel

cannot be seen in it because they are internal siddhis and nadi navamsa shows

them better.

> > >

> > > To put it bluntly, he is all over the place and really offers no clarity

on what constitutes internal things and what constitutes external things, what

should be seen in which navamsa chart.

> > >

> > > Even his assertion that apamrityu is not death but death like suffering

and his effort to divide mrityu and apamrityu as internal and external things

and separate them out into the 2 charts is illogical. Apamrityu can mean either

death like suffering or an unnatural death. Whether someone had an apamrityu or

mrityu, it is an internal *and* external event. World sees it, it affects how

one interacts with the world and it affects one internally. The effort to these

classify things into internal vs external things is illogical.

> > >

> > > When trying to see Tagore's external recognition in nadi navamsa, because

Pt Rath somehow considers it an " internal " event, he explains why the antardasa

of Venus - 12th lord in 12th - gave the recognition, saying that the recognition

was " from abroad " . He then goes on to say, " from now onwards remember that 12th

house is not bad. It can give recognition " . The 12th lord in 12th is a good

combination, but nowhere did rishis say that it gives recognition! With this

kind of logic, anything can be justified. Contrast this explanation with what I

gave above based on D-10 and Sataabdika dasa!

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Pt Rath is all over the place and inconsistent in his characterization of

internal vs external (his idea of things to be seen in Parasara's navamsa vs his

navamsa). He theorizes a lot in a very inconsistent fashion. Above all, the

chart constructed by him has some signs occurring too often and some signs

occurring less often. It is structurally very weak and does not pass a sanity

check of constructional stability. Such a structurally weak chart that is not

sanctioned by any classic can almost be ruled out from being genuine.

> > >

> > > In my view, one has a higher chance of arriving at some genuine knowledge,

if one sticks to calculations given by a rishi and tries to figure out the

purpose of those calculations.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Namaste Goel ji,

 

> As you are updating the JH-hora ,I suggest that Nadi navamsa

> may also be included. This will help further research which

> is already initiated by Pt.Rath.

 

Krishna Mishra navamsa or Jaimini navamsa defined by Shanmukha several months

back and Nadi navamsa defined now by Pt Rath are one and the same and already

included in JHora 7.33 as " Krishna Mishra navamsa " .

 

If your proposal is that I should add MY independent interpretation of Krishna

Mishra navamsa (which I shared below), I can consider it. But please note that

it is different from the Nadi navamsa taught by Pt Rath in his presentation.

Nadi navamsa taught by Pt Rath is *already included* in JHora 7.33 as " Krishna

Mishra navamsa " .

 

---------------

Parasara Navamsa

---------------

Signs - 9 parts mapped to

---------------

Ar, Le, Sg - Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi, Li, Sc, Sg

Ta, Vi, Cp - Cp, Aq, Pi, Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi

Ge, Li, Aq - Li, Sc, Sg, Cp, Aq, Pi, Ar, Ta, Ge

Cn, Sc, Pi - Cn, Le, Vi, Li, Sc, Sg, Cp, Aq, Pi

---------------

 

---------------

Shanmukha's Krishna Mishra Navamsa

Rath's Nadi Navamsa

---------------

Signs - 9 parts mapped to

---------------

Ar, Le, Sg - Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi, Li, Sc, Sg

Ta, Vi, Cp - Cp, Sg, Sc, Li, Vi, Le, Cn, Ge, Ta

Ge, Li, Aq - Li, Sc, Sg, Cp, Aq, Pi, Ar, Ta, Ge

Cn, Sc, Pi - Cn, Ge, Ta, Ar, Pi, Aq, Cp, Sg, Sc

---------------

 

---------------

Uniform Krishna Mishra Navamsa (Narasimha)

---------------

Signs - 9 parts mapped to

---------------

Ar, Le, Sg - Ar, Ta, Ge, Cn, Le, Vi, Li, Sc, Sg

Ta, Vi, Cp - Vi, Le, Cn, Ge, Ta, Ar, Pi, Aq, Cp

Ge, Li, Aq - Li, Sc, Sg, Cp, Aq, Pi, Ar, Ta, Ge

Cn, Sc, Pi - Pi, Aq, Cp, Sg, Sc, Li, Vi, Le, Cn

---------------

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

 

--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937 wrote:

 

Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937

Re:Nadi Navamsa

JyotishWritings

Cc: " P.V.R. Narasimha Rao " <pvr108

Thursday, November 5, 2009, 11:06 AM

 

Dear Narasimha ,

I am convinced that you are right.

BPHS adopts same methodology in D-30

and D-60 charts.

The following rules have ti be observed:

1, A sign is divided in nine equal parts

2. All 12 signs will have 108 navamsa

3. In a sign , no navamsa will be repeated

4. There will be of nine navamsa of each sign

As such in even signs the order will be reversed,

and division will be as under:

Tauras ,Virgo , Capricorn-6,5,4,3,2,1,12,11,and 10

Cancer , Scorpio , Pisces-12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,and4

 

As you are updating the JH-hora ,I suggest that Nadi navamsa

may also be included. This will help further research which is already

initiated by Pt.Rath.

Regards

 

G.K.GOEL

Ph: 09350311433

Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

NEW DELHI-110 076

INDIA

 

" JyotishWritings " <JyotishWritings >

JyotishWritings

Thu, 5 November, 2009 6:54:28 PM

[JyotishWritings] Digest Number 8

 

Jyotish writings of P.V.R. Narasimha Rao

Messages In This Digest (1 Message)

 

1.

Krishna Mishra's Navamsa Verse (Re: Critique on Nadi Navamsa..)

Narasimha PVR Rao

 

View All Topics | Create New Topic

Message

 

1.

Krishna Mishra's Navamsa Verse (Re: Critique on Nadi Navamsa..)

Posted by: " Narasimha PVR Rao " pvr pvr108

Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:05 am (PST)

 

 

Namaste Souvik and others,

 

> For those you are interested to read more, may refer to his articles

in his (Shanmukha's) blog.

> http://sutramritam. blogspot. com/

>

> It is true that this is the same Navamsa referred to by Pt. Rath as

" Nadi Navamsa " .

 

Absolutely. Though defined in slightly different language, both are

identical. The Krishna Mishra navamsa (or Jaimini navamsa) chart defined in the

articles of Shanmukha is absolutely *identical* to what Pt Rath introduced as

" Nadi navamsa " .

 

* * *

 

As I said, this is an asymmetric chart with different signs represented

unequally in it. Some signs appear 12 times, some 9 times and some 6 times,

instead of all signs appearing 9 times overall. THAT makes no sense whatsoever

and is quite illogical, irrespective of the caliber of the scholars who taught

it. It tells you something is amiss.

 

* * *

 

It is possible that Krishna Mishra's verse quoted by Shanmukha is

misunderstood. As a Sanskrit scholar, I can certainly see it meaning the

following, which is slightly different from how Shanmukha interpreted it. But

that slight difference in detail changes the complexion completely and makes it

logical.

 

My independent interpretation of Krishna Mishra's verse is as follows:

 

" The nine parts of a movable/fixed/ dual sign are mapped to nine signs

starting from the 1st/9th/5th sign from it, respectively. The nine parts of the

sign are considered in zodiacal/anti- zodiacal order in odd/even signs,

respectively. "

 

This is subtly different from the standard interpretation that Shanmukha

went with, but note how it changtes the equation. The second Krishna Mishra

verse given by Shanmukha also says that amsas in even rasis are reckoned

anti-zodiacally, but it does not say the mapped signs are reckoned

anti-zodiacally. So my interpretation fits with both the verses.

 

Let me show how this changes the mapping, using an example:

 

The nine parts of Ar reckoned zodiacally go into the nine signs starting

from Ar, i.e. Ar, Ta, .., Sc, Sg.

 

The nine parts of Ta reckoned anti-zodiacally within Ta go into the nine

signs starting from Cp, i.e. Cp, Aq, ..., Le, Vi. In other words, 26Ta40-30Ta00

goes to Cp, 23Ta20-26Ta40 goes to Aq, 20Ta00-23Ta20 goes to Pi, ..., 3Ta20-6Ta40

goes to Le and 0ta0-3Ta20 goes to Vi.

 

Then the nine parts of Ge are reckoned zodiacally again and mapped to

the nine signs starting Li, i.e. Li, Sc, ..., Ta, Ge.

 

The nine parts of Cn reckoned anti-zodiacally within Cn go into the nine

signs starting from Cn, i.e. Cn, Le, ..., Aq, Pi. In other words, 26Cn40-30TCn00

goes to Cn, 23Cn20-26Cn40 goes to Le, 20Cn00-23Cn20 goes to Vi, ..., 3Cn20-6Cn40

goes to Aq and 0Cn0-3Cn20 goes to Pi.

 

And so on.

 

* * *

 

Such an interpretation of Krishna Mishra's Sanskrit verse is certainly

tenable. And, it does not *bias* the chart towards some signs like the standard

interpretation. All signs appear exactly 9 times in the list of 108 navamsas.

THAT would be logical.

 

To find amsas in Ta in standard interpretation, we are starting from Cp

and going in reverse and mapping the nine parts of Ta (0Ta0-3Ta20, 3Ta20-6Ta40,

6ta40-10Ta0 etc) to Cp, Sg, Sc etc. It results in some signs repeated too many

times and some signs missing out.

 

In my interpretation, the signs mapped to are Cp, Aq, Pi etc as in

Pararsara's navamsa, but the parts within the sign that are mapped to these

signs are reversed in order (26Ta40-30Ta0, 23Ta20-26Ta40, 20Ta0-23Ta20 etc).

 

This small twist, which is perfectly tenable with Krishna Mishra's

language, makes things far more logical. You do not want a navamsa chart in

which not all signs appear 9 times in the list of 108 navamsas!

 

* * *

 

I wasn't sure why I felt compelled to write a critique on this topic. I

just followed my inner inspiration faithfully, even without understanding why

that action was required. NOW, I think I understand why I was inspired to get

into this. The inner inspiration now tells me that my dharma with topic is

finally fulfilled and I can move on...

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

 

---- Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan@ > wrote:

> Dear PVNR=ji,

>

> Thanks for sharing.

>

> The young talent and the co-author of JHora from the last version,

Shanmukha has written a beautiful article on this Navamsa (aka Krishna Mishra

Navamsa, Jamini Navamsa by Sri Irangati Ranganacharya) .

>

> Provided below are the links to his articles published in SA.

>

> http://www.scribd. com/doc/19874893 /Jaimini- Navamsa-Part- 1-NI

> http://www.scribd. com/doc/19183735 /30True-Jaimini- Navamsa-Revealed

-2

>

> For those you are interested to read more, may refer to his articles

in his (Shanmukha's) blog.

> http://sutramritam. blogspot. com/

>

> It is true that this is the same Navamsa referred to by Pt. Rath as

" Nadi Navamsa " .

>

> Regards

>

> Souvik

>

> jhora , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > > In other words, some signs come more than some other signs in this

> > > chart. In all the divisional charts defined by rishis and

classics,

> > > we see all signs getting equal coverage overall. In D-9 sequence,

> > > all signs appear 9 times; in D-10 sequence, all signs appear 10

> > > times; and so on. Pt Rath's D-9 sequence is illogical.

> > >

> > > Krishna Mishra Navamsa also has jumps in it, but it is better

> > > structured with logical jumps in such a way that all signs get

> > > equal coverage overall.

> >

> > I had in mind " Kaalachakra navamsa " , which has a few specific kinds

of jumps, but ended up mis-typing " Krishna Mishra Navamsa " . My apologies.

> >

> > In fact, the new navamsa chart christened by Pt Rath as " Nadi

Navamsa " is nothing but Krishna Mishra navamsa already available in Jagannatha

Hora software!

> >

> > BTW, my assertion about " all the divisional charts defined by

rishis " has two exceptions - hora chart that has only Cn and Le and trimsamsa

chart that skips Cn and Le. Even in those charts, all the signs *appearing* in

the chart have an equal probability. It is only in this new navamsa chart

defined by Pt Rath that some signs are more likely than others. For example, a

planet is twice as likely to be in Sg or Ge than in Vi or Pi.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam

> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana

> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org

> > Jyotish writings: http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > ---- Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > Namaste,

> > >

> > > Someone sent me a link to Pt Sanjay Rath's multimedia presentation

on " Nadi Navamsa " and asked for my comments. You can access the presentation at:

> > >

> > > http://www.sohamsa. com/dbc/nadinava msha/

> > >

> > > I will share my critique on it.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Definition

> > >

> > > Chandra Kala Nadi verse 5753 in book 3 defines navamsa as follows:

" In Ar, Le and Sg, start from Ar. In Cp, Ta and Vi, start from Cp. In Li, Aq and

Ge, start from Li. In Cn, Sc and Pi, start from Cn. "

> > >

> > > There is absolutely no indication in the verse of going

anti-zodiacally in any of the above cases and only the start sign is mentioned.

So, by default, it must mean we start from the given sign and go zodiacally.

This is just the regular Parasara navamsa! In other words, the nadi verse quoted

by Pt Rath merely defines Parasara's navamsa. In fact, Santhanam's translation

interprets it the same way, i.e. consistent with Parasara's navamsa!

> > >

> > > Now, Pt Rath says that you go anti-zodiacally for even signs

because they have female energy. That is not mentioned by Nadi. That is his own

extrapolation. Moreover, this sequence is quite oddly constructed:

> > >

> > > Ar Ta Ge Cn Le Vi Li Sc Sg : Cp Sg Sc Li Vi Le Cn Ge Ta : Li Sc Sg

Cp Aq Pi Ar Ta Ge : Cn Ge Ta Ar Pi Aq Cp Sg Sc : Ar Ta Ge ...

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Badly Structured

> > >

> > > Unlike other navamsa variations (and various other divisional

charts for that matter), the distribution across the twelve signs is *unequal*

in Pt Rath's " Nadi Navamsa " mapping:

> > >

> > > Ar - 9 times, Ta - 12 times, Ge - 12 times, Cn - 9 times,

> > > Le - 6 times, Vi - 6 times, Li - 9 times, Sc - 12 times,

> > > Sg - 12 times, Cp - 9 times, Aq - 6 times, Pi - 6 times

> > >

> > > In other words, some signs come more than some other signs in this

chart. In all the divisional charts defined by rishis and classics, we see all

signs getting equal coverage overall. In D-9 sequence, all signs appear 9 times;

in D-10 sequence, all signs appear 10 times; and so on. Pt Rath's D-9 sequence

is illogical.

> > >

> > > If navamsas go from Ar to Sg in Ar and they pretty much cover the

same signs backwards in Ta, what is the need to go just one sign up to Cp and

then start coming backwards? What is the jump from Ta to Li? Krishna Mishra

Navamsa also has jumps in it, but it is better structured with logical jumps in

such a way that all signs get equal coverage overall.

> > >

> > > The chart invented by Pt Rath is essentially a badly structured

chart that is NOT granted by any classic. Pt Rath seems to have come up with it,

in order to solve a mystery that simply does not exist in my view. It is

structurally very weak and illogical and not in the same league as the other

charts we have seen before.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Motivation

> > >

> > > The whole research is motivated by a verse in Chandra Kala Nadi.

Verse 2115 in book 1 can litereally be translated as: " if Sun is in debilitated

amsa and Taurus, the second dasa will give thread ceremony. "

> > >

> > > Pt Rath notes that a planet in Taurus cannot be in Libra navamsa

and comes up with a new navamsa chart calculation to allow that. However, there

are several possible interpretations of the verse without having to design a new

chart:

> > >

> > > (1) Amsa does not mean navamsa, but a different divisional chart

(e.g. dwadasamsa, vimsamsa etc).

> > > (2) The verse means that Sun in Li amsa and Sun in Ta amsa, give

thread ceremony in the 2nd dasa. In other words, Sun has to be in a Venusian

amsa. This is certainly a tenable interpretation.

> > > (3) Kalachakra navamsa, which can be derived from the Kalachakra

dasa tables given by Parasara, allows Li navamsa in Ta! As you go across the

zodiac from Ar to Pi and take 9 navamsas in each, the 12x9=108 navamsas go as

Ar, Ta, ..., Aq, Pi; Sc, Li, ..., Cp, Sg; Ar, Ta, ..., Aq, Pi; Sc, Li, ..., Cp,

Sg; and so on. Thre nakshatras give navamsas (3x4=12) in the savya chakra

(zodiacal cycle) and three nakshatras give navamsas in apasavya chakra

(anto-zodiacal cycle) and so on. This way, navamsas in Ta will be Cp, Aq, Pi,

Sc, Li, Vi, Cn, Le, Ge. So Li navamsa comes in Ta!

> > > (4) There is an error in the manuscripts as Santhanam suspected.

> > >

> > > Given different ways in which the verse can be explained, there is

no real motivation to come up with whole new calculations just to explain it.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Example - Abraham Lincoln

> > >

> > > He died in Saturn-Saturn antardasa. Pt Rath questions how Saturn

in navamsa lagna could have killed him.

> > >

> > > One wonders why he is seeing death from navamsa. He says death is

an internal thing and not an external thing. Because of his theory that internal

things are seen from nadi navamsa (i.e. his newly created chart) and external

things are seen from Pararsara navamsa and because he wants to justify death in

Saturn dasa based on nadi navamsa but not Parasara navamsa, he makes death into

an internal thing and not an external thing.

> > >

> > > But death is internal *as well as* external. After all, it's not

like the world does not know it when one dies!!

> > >

> > > Actually, forget navamsa, which is not really the chart of death.

Take rasi chart, the chart of physical body. It must surely show death. Saturn

is lagna lord in a quadrant. Why did he kill? It makes no sense.

> > >

> > > Lincoln has two planets in lagna, while Moon is in an inimical

sign in 12th. Lagna is much stronger than Moon. Thus, Vimsottari dasa from lagna

is far more appropriate for him. Parasara never said dasas are only from Moon's

star. They can be from the star of Moon or lagna. Based on lagna Vimsottari,

which is far far more appropriate here, Mercury dasa started in 1965 February

and he died 2 months later. Mercury is the 8th lord in lagna with 7th lord. He

is a maraka using classical rules of Parasara. So Lincoln died as soon as a

classical maraka dasa started.

> > >

> > > Instead of making lagna lord of rasi chart (Saturn) a maraka

simply because he is in the 7th house in a newly constructed chart, let us stick

to simple principles and accept 8th lord in lagna with 7th lord (Mercury) as a

maraka, irrespective of navamsa.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Example - A.R. Rahman ( " Jai ho " composer)

> > >

> > > Indian composer A.R. Rahman became popular in the Dwisaptati sama

dasa of Mars (1998-2007). Pt Rath asked why Mars made him so successful despite

being in the 8th house in navamsa. He pointed out that Mars in 10th house in

nadi navamsa and said that explains his " siddhi " .

> > >

> > > Questions arise: What does he mean by siddhi, which he says is

" internal " and hence seen in nadi navamsa? How does Pt Rath know that Rahman got

this siddhi in Mars dasa? If he is concluding it by externally looking at the

quality of his compositions or their success, isn't then this " siddhi " an

external thing? Why is it only internal? Why is this " siddhi " seen in navamsa

and not siddhamsa (D-24) or some other chart?

> > >

> > > Moreover, he is composing as well in Mercury dasa (since 2007). In

fact, his international fame (e.g. Jai ho from " Slumdog Millionnaire " ) came in

Mercury dasa. Mercury is 8th lord in 7th in both Parasara navamsa and " nadi

navamsa " . Why does he continue to maintain " siddhi " , compose well and increase

fame in this dasa?

> > >

> > > Now, let us simply address the basic question - why this success

in Mars dasa?

> > >

> > > Though Mars is in 8th in Parasara navamsa, he is lagna lord. Lagna

lord in 8th can give sudden rise. Navamsa is the chart of poorvapunya. Lagna

lord is always beneficial. So his poorvapunya gives him sudden and unexpected

rise. In rasi, Mars is the 6th lord in 8th with 12th lord. This is VRY and shows

rising to great heights after suffering. VRY does not necessarily show getting

" undeserved " success after someone dies as Pt Rath said in the presentation. It

shows rising to great and unexpected heights after suffering.

> > >

> > > In any case, dasamsa is the real chart for this. In D-10, Mars is

10th and 5th lord and a yogakaraka. He is in keertipada (A5). Though he is in

8th, yogakaraka in 8th gives sudden fame and sudden rise.

> > >

> > > Success in Mars dasa makes sense without resorting to nadi

navamsa.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Example - Rabindranath Tagore

> > >

> > > He questions how Jupiter can kill, because he is lagna lord in

12th in navamsa. With his " nadi navamsa " , Jupiter is 2nd and 5th lord in 2nd. He

says that explains death in Jupiter-Jupiter dasa.

> > >

> > > However, death cannot be justified just based on navamsa. Rasi

chart must show it. Jupiter is the lagna lord exalted in 5th. How can his dasa

and antardasa give death? Obviously, he is using a wrong dasa to see death.

> > >

> > > Pt Rath used Dwisaptati sama dasa for Rahman and not Vimsottari.

So he does use conditional dasas when they are applicable? Why doesn't he then

use Sataabdika dasa here, as lagna is in vargottama??

> > >

> > > If we use Lagna Sataabdika dasa for vargottama lagna, we see that

Saturn-Venus antardasa killed him. Saturn is a malefic in an inimical sign

aspecting 8th house and 3rd house, while Venus is the 8th lord in 2nd and

aspecting 8th. This fits Parasara's criteria for marakatwa very well.

> > >

> > > Let us not ignore the true marakas associated with the 8th house

and convert lagna lord of rasi chart exalted in the 5th house into a maraka,

simply because he is in the 2nd house in a new chart.

> > >

> > > Even wife's death is clear. Jupiter is the 7th lord from the

arudha pada of 7th lord and his Sataabdika dasa killed wife. Antardasa was that

of Sun, who is a malefic in 3rd with Rahu.

> > >

> > > As for his Nobel prize, Mars-Saturn gave it as per lagna

Sataabdika dasa. In D-10, Mars is yogakaraka in 11th aspecting 5th. Saturn is

7th lord with 5th lord Jupiter and exchanges results. So both the planets are

associated with 5th. If we do not insist on seeing the events from navamsa and

use the correct chart (D-10), it makes good sense. In any case, Pt Rath did not

really have any convincing logic using nadi navamsa.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Nadi navamsa, Nadis and Chakras

> > >

> > > Simply because he " sees " a mystery in a " nadi " text and " solves "

it by defining a new chart, he seems to jump to the conclusion that this chart

shows internal " nadis and chakras " and death. He never justifies why this chart

should show " nadis and chakras " , though he makes that assertion several times.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Internal vs External

> > >

> > > After saying that Parasara navamsa shows external things and nadi

navamsa shows internal things, he shows how Parasara navamsa does not explain

Knighthood and Nobel prize in Tagore's chart and how nadi navamsa shows it. He

explains it saying " you get recognition for what *you* do and not what somebody

else does " and thus makes recognition into an internal thing. This blurs the

distinction between internal and external. On one hand, he says " manifestation

of the entire external world is from Parasara's navamsa " and yet says Knighthood

and Nobel cannot be seen in it because they are internal siddhis and nadi

navamsa shows them better.

> > >

> > > To put it bluntly, he is all over the place and really offers no

clarity on what constitutes internal things and what constitutes external

things, what should be seen in which navamsa chart.

> > >

> > > Even his assertion that apamrityu is not death but death like

suffering and his effort to divide mrityu and apamrityu as internal and external

things and separate them out into the 2 charts is illogical. Apamrityu can mean

either death like suffering or an unnatural death. Whether someone had an

apamrityu or mrityu, it is an internal *and* external event. World sees it, it

affects how one interacts with the world and it affects one internally. The

effort to these classify things into internal vs external things is illogical.

> > >

> > > When trying to see Tagore's external recognition in nadi navamsa,

because Pt Rath somehow considers it an " internal " event, he explains why the

antardasa of Venus - 12th lord in 12th - gave the recognition, saying that the

recognition was " from abroad " . He then goes on to say, " from now onwards

remember that 12th house is not bad. It can give recognition " . The 12th lord in

12th is a good combination, but nowhere did rishis say that it gives

recognition! With this kind of logic, anything can be justified. Contrast this

explanation with what I gave above based on D-10 and Sataabdika dasa!

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Pt Rath is all over the place and inconsistent in his

characterization of internal vs external (his idea of things to be seen in

Parasara's navamsa vs his navamsa). He theorizes a lot in a very inconsistent

fashion. Above all, the chart constructed by him has some signs occurring too

often and some signs occurring less often. It is structurally very weak and does

not pass a sanity check of constructional stability. Such a structurally weak

chart that is not sanctioned by any classic can almost be ruled out from being

genuine.

> > >

> > > In my view, one has a higher chance of arriving at some genuine

knowledge, if one sticks to calculations given by a rishi and tries to figure

out the purpose of those calculations.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha