Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Hi Marg, From the mouths of children diverse shall the VERSES come to life ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M652COEqNg Rohini , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Well said Rohini > I tend to not read mails with this header as it has become difficult for the last year?? or so since it has been redirected to this list from another, to understand what exactly the purpose is? Any argument or debate that might have a rationale in relation to this topic is too often obscured and polluted by a rather immature, ill informed and overt racism sadly. > > - > rohinicrystal > > Friday, November 27, 2009 2:45 AM > Re: Sayana And Nirayana Chakra: Understanding Ayanamsha > > > > Maybe I missed the obvious in your posting, Panigrahi jee, but if I may be allowed to take your hand in mine, as a gesture of connection and communication, as a brother, the difference between the two schools and perspectives is rather obvious and interestingly also reflects the difference between the eastern and western philosophies about life, in general and the cultures! As has been written many a times earlier! > > The western zodiac is physical, and is based on the seasons, which are more here and now and immediate than KARMA and LIFETIMES! > > The Tropical zodiac commences with the advent of spring and that varies depending on which hemisphere in this very EARTH one is born! One born in Spring in England, if he were to take birth at the same EPOCH in New Zealand would be born in Autumn! The Seasonal Zodiac or the tropical zodiac, therefore, is local and must not be overinterpreted! > > The sidereal zodiac is celestial and not earth-bound. For it is based on the perspective, albeit from the earth, but as one views the Cosmos, the constellations that are not earth-based (unlike seasons!). > > It, too, should not be overinterpreted perhaps! Good luck, though, trying to stop them who would insist on doing otherwise ...! > > There are many urban myths that float, have floated for decades that insist on seeing the Universe as either black or white, either sidereal or tropical, etc! > > Perhaps a wider perspective may be necessary and timely, just before Winter Solstice of 2012 (and that too varies subject to which expert you tuned into earlier today!) arrives! BUT HARK! Please do not open your mind so much that your one and only brain falls out of the 'opening!' > > My wardrobe includes western suits, dhoti-kurta, chudidaar and jacket, and other robes and vestments. I enjoy different kinds of foods and so on! > > Astrology is, after all, simply a DESCRIPTOR of ALL HUMAN EXPERIENCES! Perhaps we all need to don the vetments that suit the occasions diverse! One would look somewhat out of place showing up at a Bar-Mitz-Vah dressed in a tribal costume! > > Shalome! > > , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sayana And Nirayana Chakra: Understanding Ayanamsha > > By Deborah Allison > > > > This is the second in a series of articles that highlight the unique > > features and tools of Vedic Astrology when compared to other > > astrological traditions. > > > > All Vedic astrologers have to deal with the identity crisis that > > inevitably occurs when clients who are used to Western chart readings, > > or who simply skim the " Your Horoscope " column in the local newspaper, > > encounter Jyotish for the first time. Even Jyotish " diehards " may not > > really understand why there is not alignment between something as basic > > as the calculation of what sign and degree a planet occupies in these > > two systems. > > > > The answer lies in the point of reference used for this all- important > > calculation. Western Astrology relies on what is known as the Tropical > > Zodiac (Sayana cakra), which uses the Vernal Equinox as the point of > > reference. The Indian system - Jyotish - uses the Sidereal Zodiac > > (Nirayana cakra), which adopts a fixed star as the point of reference. > > > > The reason for the discrepancy between these two systems is that there > > is a " wobble " in the rotation of the earth on its axis. As a result, the > > Sun does not return exactly to the same point of 0 degrees Aries each > > spring at the vernal equinox as observed from a fixed star. It misses by > > a tiny amount (around 50 seconds of arc according to the most widely > > used reference point). This may not seem to matter much, but when it > > accumulates over the years, the vernal equinox is seen to slip back and > > back into the sign of Pisces then eventually Aquarius and so on. This > > phenomenon is known as precession of the Vernal Equinox. > > > > At the present time, the discrepancy between these two systems is about > > 23 degrees, 57 minutes. This ever-increasing difference is known as the > > ayanamsha (moving part). If you subtract the daily specific ayanamsha > > from the planet's position in a Western tropical chart, you will get its > > location in the Vedic Sidereal Chart. > > > > A Western Astrologer is going to fix the Vernal Equinox as 0 degrees > > Aries regardless of whether the Sun is actually observed against the > > backdrop of the stars in the constellation of Aries on that particular > > day and year. In fact, eventually, there can be the bizarre situation > > where the Sun is actually observed by astronomers in the sign of Libra > > and a Western astrologer says it is in Aries - the opposite sign of the > > zodiac! This may be a contributing factor to the typical modern > > astronomer's negative opinions about astrology. However, as all > > astrology is, at its heart, a divination system, the important thing is > > how well the astrologer integrates any system with the cognitive faculty > > of intuition. > > > > Jyotish, in turn, always establishes the planetary position against the > > backdrop of the fixed stars so that real-time observation matches the > > chart positions. The Sayana cakra or Tropical Zodiac is used in Jyotish > > to a limited extend for some aspects of calendar calculations. However, > > the all-important mapping of the heavens for the purposes of divination > > strictly uses the positions of the planets against the Fixed or Sidereal > > Zodiac - the Nirayana cakra. > > > > Since the stars in the constellation of Aries are very dim, the > > reference star used for " pointing " to the all important beginning of the > > zodiac of 0 degrees Aries is one of the brightest stars in the heavens. > > Westerners refer to it as Spica but it is known as Citra in Jyotish. > > Citra is the marker star for one of the 27 nakshatras that bears the > > same name. Its brightness is reflected in the symbolism of that > > nakshatras which is known as " the shining jewel. " The ayanamsha based on > > using Citra as the reference star is known as the Citra Paksha ayanamsha > > or the Lahiri ayanamsha and is the most widely used in India. > > > > However, if you have had your chart done by several Jyotishis, you may > > find some minor discrepancies in the positions of your planets. This is > > due to the fact that there are variant opinions on the ayanamsha, and in > > some charts, this can result in dramatic displacements either in the > > main chart or in some of the subtler divisional charts. > > > > © copyright 2006 Michael Laughrin > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Dear Rohiniji, I like your compromising and coordinating attitude: <<The Seasonal Zodiac or the tropical zodiac, therefore, is local and must not be overinterpreted! The sidereal zodiac is celestial and not earth-bound. For it is based on the perspective, albeit from the earth, but as one views the Cosmos, the constellations that are not earth-based (unlike seasons!). It, too, should not be overinterpreted perhaps! Good luck, though, trying to stop them who would insist on doing otherwise ...! There are many urban myths that float, have floated for decades that insist on seeing the Universe as either black or white, either sidereal or tropical,etc!>> Please be satisfied that your above view is the coordinatie Vedic view too. Vedanga jyotish says: " When the sun and the moon are in Dhanistha nakshyatra, the five year yuga, month of magha, tapa sukla (pakshya or pratipada) and uttarayan start together. " You will note that sun in Dhanistha means sidereal solar starting point,maagha sukla pratipada means lunar starting point and uttarayan means tropial starting point. When they all start together,it means coordination of the solar , lunar and tropical concepts as one. Thus your concept of suits and kurtas being in the same wardrobe is a vedic coordinative concept.This is the only vedic way we can reform our calendar by shifting the solar and the lunar starting points to match with the present tropical date. Hari Malla , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Hi Marg, > > From the mouths of children diverse shall the VERSES come to life ... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M652COEqNg > > Rohini > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Well said Rohini > > I tend to not read mails with this header as it has become difficult for the last year?? or so since it has been redirected to this list from another, to understand what exactly the purpose is? Any argument or debate that might have a rationale in relation to this topic is too often obscured and polluted by a rather immature, ill informed and overt racism sadly. > > > > - > > rohinicrystal > > > > Friday, November 27, 2009 2:45 AM > > Re: Sayana And Nirayana Chakra: Understanding Ayanamsha > > > > > > > > Maybe I missed the obvious in your posting, Panigrahi jee, but if I may be allowed to take your hand in mine, as a gesture of connection and communication, as a brother, the difference between the two schools and perspectives is rather obvious and interestingly also reflects the difference between the eastern and western philosophies about life, in general and the cultures! As has been written many a times earlier! > > > > The western zodiac is physical, and is based on the seasons, which are more here and now and immediate than KARMA and LIFETIMES! > > > > The Tropical zodiac commences with the advent of spring and that varies depending on which hemisphere in this very EARTH one is born! One born in Spring in England, if he were to take birth at the same EPOCH in New Zealand would be born in Autumn! The Seasonal Zodiac or the tropical zodiac, therefore, is local and must not be overinterpreted! > > > > The sidereal zodiac is celestial and not earth-bound. For it is based on the perspective, albeit from the earth, but as one views the Cosmos, the constellations that are not earth-based (unlike seasons!). > > > > It, too, should not be overinterpreted perhaps! Good luck, though, trying to stop them who would insist on doing otherwise ...! > > > > There are many urban myths that float, have floated for decades that insist on seeing the Universe as either black or white, either sidereal or tropical, etc! > > > > Perhaps a wider perspective may be necessary and timely, just before Winter Solstice of 2012 (and that too varies subject to which expert you tuned into earlier today!) arrives! BUT HARK! Please do not open your mind so much that your one and only brain falls out of the 'opening!' > > > > My wardrobe includes western suits, dhoti-kurta, chudidaar and jacket, and other robes and vestments. I enjoy different kinds of foods and so on! > > > > Astrology is, after all, simply a DESCRIPTOR of ALL HUMAN EXPERIENCES! Perhaps we all need to don the vetments that suit the occasions diverse! One would look somewhat out of place showing up at a Bar-Mitz-Vah dressed in a tribal costume! > > > > Shalome! > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sayana And Nirayana Chakra: Understanding Ayanamsha > > > By Deborah Allison > > > > > > This is the second in a series of articles that highlight the unique > > > features and tools of Vedic Astrology when compared to other > > > astrological traditions. > > > > > > All Vedic astrologers have to deal with the identity crisis that > > > inevitably occurs when clients who are used to Western chart readings, > > > or who simply skim the " Your Horoscope " column in the local newspaper, > > > encounter Jyotish for the first time. Even Jyotish " diehards " may not > > > really understand why there is not alignment between something as basic > > > as the calculation of what sign and degree a planet occupies in these > > > two systems. > > > > > > The answer lies in the point of reference used for this all- important > > > calculation. Western Astrology relies on what is known as the Tropical > > > Zodiac (Sayana cakra), which uses the Vernal Equinox as the point of > > > reference. The Indian system - Jyotish - uses the Sidereal Zodiac > > > (Nirayana cakra), which adopts a fixed star as the point of reference. > > > > > > The reason for the discrepancy between these two systems is that there > > > is a " wobble " in the rotation of the earth on its axis. As a result, the > > > Sun does not return exactly to the same point of 0 degrees Aries each > > > spring at the vernal equinox as observed from a fixed star. It misses by > > > a tiny amount (around 50 seconds of arc according to the most widely > > > used reference point). This may not seem to matter much, but when it > > > accumulates over the years, the vernal equinox is seen to slip back and > > > back into the sign of Pisces then eventually Aquarius and so on. This > > > phenomenon is known as precession of the Vernal Equinox. > > > > > > At the present time, the discrepancy between these two systems is about > > > 23 degrees, 57 minutes. This ever-increasing difference is known as the > > > ayanamsha (moving part). If you subtract the daily specific ayanamsha > > > from the planet's position in a Western tropical chart, you will get its > > > location in the Vedic Sidereal Chart. > > > > > > A Western Astrologer is going to fix the Vernal Equinox as 0 degrees > > > Aries regardless of whether the Sun is actually observed against the > > > backdrop of the stars in the constellation of Aries on that particular > > > day and year. In fact, eventually, there can be the bizarre situation > > > where the Sun is actually observed by astronomers in the sign of Libra > > > and a Western astrologer says it is in Aries - the opposite sign of the > > > zodiac! This may be a contributing factor to the typical modern > > > astronomer's negative opinions about astrology. However, as all > > > astrology is, at its heart, a divination system, the important thing is > > > how well the astrologer integrates any system with the cognitive faculty > > > of intuition. > > > > > > Jyotish, in turn, always establishes the planetary position against the > > > backdrop of the fixed stars so that real-time observation matches the > > > chart positions. The Sayana cakra or Tropical Zodiac is used in Jyotish > > > to a limited extend for some aspects of calendar calculations. However, > > > the all-important mapping of the heavens for the purposes of divination > > > strictly uses the positions of the planets against the Fixed or Sidereal > > > Zodiac - the Nirayana cakra. > > > > > > Since the stars in the constellation of Aries are very dim, the > > > reference star used for " pointing " to the all important beginning of the > > > zodiac of 0 degrees Aries is one of the brightest stars in the heavens. > > > Westerners refer to it as Spica but it is known as Citra in Jyotish. > > > Citra is the marker star for one of the 27 nakshatras that bears the > > > same name. Its brightness is reflected in the symbolism of that > > > nakshatras which is known as " the shining jewel. " The ayanamsha based on > > > using Citra as the reference star is known as the Citra Paksha ayanamsha > > > or the Lahiri ayanamsha and is the most widely used in India. > > > > > > However, if you have had your chart done by several Jyotishis, you may > > > find some minor discrepancies in the positions of your planets. This is > > > due to the fact that there are variant opinions on the ayanamsha, and in > > > some charts, this can result in dramatic displacements either in the > > > main chart or in some of the subtler divisional charts. > > > > > > © copyright 2006 Michael Laughrin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Nice video clip R .....thx - rohinicrystal Saturday, November 28, 2009 1:01 AM Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam ... Hi Marg, From the mouths of children diverse shall the VERSES come to life ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M652COEqNg Rohini , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Well said Rohini > I tend to not read mails with this header as it has become difficult for the last year?? or so since it has been redirected to this list from another, to understand what exactly the purpose is? Any argument or debate that might have a rationale in relation to this topic is too often obscured and polluted by a rather immature, ill informed and overt racism sadly. > > - > rohinicrystal > > Friday, November 27, 2009 2:45 AM > Re: Sayana And Nirayana Chakra: Understanding Ayanamsha > > > > Maybe I missed the obvious in your posting, Panigrahi jee, but if I may be allowed to take your hand in mine, as a gesture of connection and communication, as a brother, the difference between the two schools and perspectives is rather obvious and interestingly also reflects the difference between the eastern and western philosophies about life, in general and the cultures! As has been written many a times earlier! > > The western zodiac is physical, and is based on the seasons, which are more here and now and immediate than KARMA and LIFETIMES! > > The Tropical zodiac commences with the advent of spring and that varies depending on which hemisphere in this very EARTH one is born! One born in Spring in England, if he were to take birth at the same EPOCH in New Zealand would be born in Autumn! The Seasonal Zodiac or the tropical zodiac, therefore, is local and must not be overinterpreted! > > The sidereal zodiac is celestial and not earth-bound. For it is based on the perspective, albeit from the earth, but as one views the Cosmos, the constellations that are not earth-based (unlike seasons!). > > It, too, should not be overinterpreted perhaps! Good luck, though, trying to stop them who would insist on doing otherwise ...! > > There are many urban myths that float, have floated for decades that insist on seeing the Universe as either black or white, either sidereal or tropical, etc! > > Perhaps a wider perspective may be necessary and timely, just before Winter Solstice of 2012 (and that too varies subject to which expert you tuned into earlier today!) arrives! BUT HARK! Please do not open your mind so much that your one and only brain falls out of the 'opening!' > > My wardrobe includes western suits, dhoti-kurta, chudidaar and jacket, and other robes and vestments. I enjoy different kinds of foods and so on! > > Astrology is, after all, simply a DESCRIPTOR of ALL HUMAN EXPERIENCES! Perhaps we all need to don the vetments that suit the occasions diverse! One would look somewhat out of place showing up at a Bar-Mitz-Vah dressed in a tribal costume! > > Shalome! > > , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sayana And Nirayana Chakra: Understanding Ayanamsha > > By Deborah Allison > > > > This is the second in a series of articles that highlight the unique > > features and tools of Vedic Astrology when compared to other > > astrological traditions. > > > > All Vedic astrologers have to deal with the identity crisis that > > inevitably occurs when clients who are used to Western chart readings, > > or who simply skim the " Your Horoscope " column in the local newspaper, > > encounter Jyotish for the first time. Even Jyotish " diehards " may not > > really understand why there is not alignment between something as basic > > as the calculation of what sign and degree a planet occupies in these > > two systems. > > > > The answer lies in the point of reference used for this all- important > > calculation. Western Astrology relies on what is known as the Tropical > > Zodiac (Sayana cakra), which uses the Vernal Equinox as the point of > > reference. The Indian system - Jyotish - uses the Sidereal Zodiac > > (Nirayana cakra), which adopts a fixed star as the point of reference. > > > > The reason for the discrepancy between these two systems is that there > > is a " wobble " in the rotation of the earth on its axis. As a result, the > > Sun does not return exactly to the same point of 0 degrees Aries each > > spring at the vernal equinox as observed from a fixed star. It misses by > > a tiny amount (around 50 seconds of arc according to the most widely > > used reference point). This may not seem to matter much, but when it > > accumulates over the years, the vernal equinox is seen to slip back and > > back into the sign of Pisces then eventually Aquarius and so on. This > > phenomenon is known as precession of the Vernal Equinox. > > > > At the present time, the discrepancy between these two systems is about > > 23 degrees, 57 minutes. This ever-increasing difference is known as the > > ayanamsha (moving part). If you subtract the daily specific ayanamsha > > from the planet's position in a Western tropical chart, you will get its > > location in the Vedic Sidereal Chart. > > > > A Western Astrologer is going to fix the Vernal Equinox as 0 degrees > > Aries regardless of whether the Sun is actually observed against the > > backdrop of the stars in the constellation of Aries on that particular > > day and year. In fact, eventually, there can be the bizarre situation > > where the Sun is actually observed by astronomers in the sign of Libra > > and a Western astrologer says it is in Aries - the opposite sign of the > > zodiac! This may be a contributing factor to the typical modern > > astronomer's negative opinions about astrology. However, as all > > astrology is, at its heart, a divination system, the important thing is > > how well the astrologer integrates any system with the cognitive faculty > > of intuition. > > > > Jyotish, in turn, always establishes the planetary position against the > > backdrop of the fixed stars so that real-time observation matches the > > chart positions. The Sayana cakra or Tropical Zodiac is used in Jyotish > > to a limited extend for some aspects of calendar calculations. However, > > the all-important mapping of the heavens for the purposes of divination > > strictly uses the positions of the planets against the Fixed or Sidereal > > Zodiac - the Nirayana cakra. > > > > Since the stars in the constellation of Aries are very dim, the > > reference star used for " pointing " to the all important beginning of the > > zodiac of 0 degrees Aries is one of the brightest stars in the heavens. > > Westerners refer to it as Spica but it is known as Citra in Jyotish. > > Citra is the marker star for one of the 27 nakshatras that bears the > > same name. Its brightness is reflected in the symbolism of that > > nakshatras which is known as " the shining jewel. " The ayanamsha based on > > using Citra as the reference star is known as the Citra Paksha ayanamsha > > or the Lahiri ayanamsha and is the most widely used in India. > > > > However, if you have had your chart done by several Jyotishis, you may > > find some minor discrepancies in the positions of your planets. This is > > due to the fact that there are variant opinions on the ayanamsha, and in > > some charts, this can result in dramatic displacements either in the > > main chart or in some of the subtler divisional charts. > > > > © copyright 2006 Michael Laughrin > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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