[USBrahmins] FW: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

I believe that if one gives the the name of the book from which one quotes that

is still creditable and if one gives the reference to the verses it is

admirable. If one does not give the exact verse it does not matter as one who is

keen on the subject can always find out. Not quoting verse cannot be an issue.

Jyotirved falsely claims he has read the Vedas and the Shastras. He always

misinterprets the verses. He is poor in Sanskrit as I have shown earlier.

 

1)

That the rashis are Nirayana is shown in Vamana purana, a fifth Veda text and

even if Jyotirved goes on trying life after life he will not be able to prove it

to the contrary and I am sure Lord Rama will not tolerate the misinterpretation

of the Vamana Purana. One cannot pit any other authority other than the four

Vedas to contest the Vamana purana.

 

2)

Magha is related to Purnima in the Magha nakshatra and this makes it

Sidereal.Let Jyotirved go on claiming Magha to be Sayana and that does not mean

anything to the people who knows this relation.

 

3)

Kaushitaki did say that the Magha Amavashya and Winter solstice coincided.

Jyotirved  does not know that Mahashivaratri is celebrated in the 14th tithi of

Magha Krishnapaksha (ie. the tithi before the Magha Amavashya). Had he known

that he would have understood what I said. As I said before " Samazdaroke liye

Ishaaraahi kafi ha " and the Jyotirved is not one of them. If one gives the

reference the norms are satisfied.

 

4)

Jyotirved earlier referred to a verse by Manu where Manu had barred the

practitioners of Astrology from being invited to Pitri karya. Does that not mean

that there were Astrologers in the times of Manu. But Jyotirved made

self-contradictory statement that Astrology was not mentioned by Manu. Such are

his statements defying common sense and logic.

 

5)

why is Jyotirved mentioning only one type of month of the Vedanga Jyotisha . The

Vedanga Jyotisha mentions two types of months ie the Sayana  month of Tapas,

which started from the new Moon and also the Nirayana month of Magha.

Jyotirved's calling the  nakshatras as imaginary will not make the

imaginary.   Like the Vaman purana even Claudius Ptolemy also considered 

Aldevaran (Rohini)  to be at the middle of Taurus (Vrishava). The Aldevaran

Rohini) is not an imaginary nakshatra. Taurus is one of the twelve divisions of

the zodiac corresponding to the Vrishava Rashi. Thus Claudius Ptolemy was also

referring to the sidereal Zodiac. The western astrologers later on  opted for

the use of the Tropical Zodiac for their application. Tropical Zodiac considers

only the Solar system, whereas the Sidereal system considers the entire universe

including the Solar system. The Hindu Jyotisha is based on the Sidereal system.

The merits and demerits of these two

systems of astrology is not our concern here, when we discuss the calendar.

 

6)

Jyotirved wanted to justify the celebration of Makar Sankranti on the date the

Sun changes its gati from the Makar rekha. Now he admits that Makar Rekha is not

to be found in the ancient texts as we know and he also accepts that now. The

Makar Rekha has no relation with Makar Sankranti, which is observed on the day

the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. In the 31st cenbtury BCE (ie. the century in

which the Mahabhatrata war took place) the Sun entered the Makar rashi in the

Dakshinayana and any astronomer will tell you that. Thus Makar Sankranti has no

permanent relation with the Uttarayana.

 

7)

Good that Jyotirved has now  admitted  that the Makar Rekha is not there in

the ancient shastras. If he would have continued to evade that then nobody would

have read his mail and I am sure about that.

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Sat, 11/28/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

[uSBrahmins] FW: Re: The Views of Patrizia

Norelli-Bachelet

usbrahmins

Saturday, November 28, 2009, 3:28 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shri Sunil

Bhattacharjyaji,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

<The

Mahashivaratri is to be observed in the month of Magha  and the month Magha

is Sidereal. The required data is given in the Purana in terms of the Sidereal

calendar.>

 

I have already

clarified it several times that there was no so called sidereal or tropical

calendar as per the puranas!  The Puranas copied definition of all the

Rashis from the Surya Sidhanta without changing a whit!  And the

definition of Mesha etc. Rashis as per the Surya Sidhanta is nothing but

so called sayana!  Puranas also appended lunar months like Chaitra,

Vaishakha etc. to those very Sayana months. 

 

Why don't you

take some trouble and go through the documents like B VB6, 1999b, Rashi5 etc.

which are in the files section.  Or is it that you have already gone

through them and still insist on the so called nirayana, which you call

sidereal rashis, in the Puranas and siddhantas also in spite of the fact that

those rashis are sayana?

 

There is also

Alberuni’s India document in the files section.  Pl. go through it and you

will see that in eleventh century India also only so called sayana rashis were

used for not only celebrating festivals but even phalita jyotisha!  Even

Ashvini, Bharni nakshatras were clubbed with those sayana rashis in eleventh

century India!

 

 < As

regards the Kaushitaki Brahmana have patience if you could not lay hands on

that till now and read it when you get it. Don't expect to be spoon-fed

everytime. >

 

The norms of a

debate are that you have to substantiate your premise with proofs and not ask

the other party to look for the proofs himself.  To the best of my

knowledge, there is no mantra in Kaushitaki Brahmana which states that

Mahashivaratri is to be celebrated on the day of Winter Solstice, and unless

you quote the original mantra with translation, I will stand by my contention.

 

<Stop

forthwith your this type of harmful anti-vedic assertions without adducing any

evidence. If you have read Rig Veda, as you claim to have done, then you must

have noticed that Rig Veda says that " Moon is the maker of the

month " . The Lunar month is as old as the Rig Veda>.

 

Yes, when the

“moon enters/joins/ lives with the sun†it is known as Amavasya†as per

the

Vedas.  And as per the Vedanga Jyotisham also, a new lunar months starts

with New Moon.  But where has it been said in the Rigveda or any other

Veda or the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. that the lunar month Chaitra is Chaitra only

because the Full Moon after fifteen days of  the start of that month will

be in an imaginary equal twenty-seventh division known as Chitra of a still

more imaginary circle called zodiac?  Unless and until you substantiate your

arguments with proofs citing the original Vedic mantras with their translations

that Chaitra is Chaitra only because the Full Moon after fifteen days of the

start of that month is in Chitra, your statement has absolutely no value.

 

Then again, you

have to tell the forum members as to what you mean by Chitra nakshtra, i.e.

whether it is  supposed to be subsumed in a so called nirayana rashi or a

so called sayana rashi?  If it is the latter, what ayanamsha should we

choose and why?  What is the support of the Vedic mantras to justify your

arguments?

 

As already

pointed out, even in eleventh century India,  twenty-seven equal nakshatra

division  were being linked to sayana rashis.  So do you mean to say

that in the Vedic period also they decided the nomenclature of lunar months by

dint of linking Krittika etc. nakshatras, which you call sidereal, to sayana

rashis?  Pl. clarify your stand in unambiguous terms.

 

<You tried

to justify celebration of Makar Sankranti on the shortest day by mentioning the

Makar Rekha and now you have miserably failed to show the mention of the

" Makar Rekha' In any of the ancient texts>

 

You have a very

bad habit of ascribing such statements to others as were never made by

them.  As clarified already, how can you expect to find Makar Rekha in any

shastra if the term Makar Sankranti itself is an import via Surya Sidhanta from

a country other than India?  Makar Rekha is a “tatsam†equivalent of

“Tropic of Capricorn†which you can find described in detail in Primary

level

geography books.

 

< Nobody

will read a single line of yours until you show where you found mention of the

Makar rekha in the ancient shastras.>

 

If wishes were

horse beggars would ride them!

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

A

K Kaul

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

<If one does not give the exact verse it does not matter >

 

No, it does matter. Unless and until Shri Bhattacharjya gives the original

mantra from Kaushitaki Brahman together with its translation that says that

Mahashivaratri is to be celebrated on the Uttarayana Day, his statement is

nothing but a tissue of lies!

 

<That the rashis are Nirayana is shown in Vamana purana, a fifth Veda text >

 

Again the same statement being parroted for the umpteenth time! He has been

told times without number that the Mesha etc. rashis in the Puranas are a

ditto copy of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha and the Rashis in the

siddhantas and therefore Puranas too are Sayana. Asvhini, Bharni etc.

nakshatras divisions were subsumed in those very Sayana Rashis by Maya the

mlechha in his Surya Siddhanta and Vamana Purana has done the same thing!

So what is " sidereal " or " tropical " about it! On the other hand, it proves

what I have been repeating times without number---the rashis in the

siddhantas, in spite of being Sayana, included Ashvini, Bharni etc.

nakshatras! That very thing has been confirmed by Alberuni that in eleventh

century India (Sayana) rashis were used and they included nakshtras!

 

As such, Shri Bhattacharjya is corroborating my findings!

 

< Magha is related to Purnima in the Magha nakshatra and this makes it

Sidereal. Let Jyotirved go on claiming Magha to be Sayana and that does not

mean anything to the people who knows this relation.>

 

It appears that none of the members read Shri Bhattacharjya’s posts as they

would otherwise have contested his fallacious and even malicious views!

Anybody who has read BVB6, Rashi5, Koshur6, 1999b etc. documents is by now

aware that the Vedic and Puaranic lunar Magha starts with the first New Moon

on or after the Uttarayana Day, which is also known as the starting day of

Tapah and solar Magha. Similarly, the first New Moon after the month of

Tapasya is known as lunar Phalguna and so on. There is nothing nirayana

about them nor is there any condition involved in it that the name of Magha

Shukla paksha will be decided only after it has been ascertained that a

month after that date, the Full Moon will be in one of the twenty-seven

imaginary portions known as Magha of yet another imaginary circle known as

ecliptic.

 

< Kaushitaki did say that the Magha Amavashya and Winter solstice coincided.

Jyotirved does not know that Mahashivaratri is celebrated in the 14th tithi

of Magha Krishnapaksha (ie. the tithi before the Magha Amavashya). >

 

The criteria for Mahashivaratri that I have provided do say that

Mahashivaratri is to be celebrated on Magha (Gauna Phalguna) Krishna

Chaturdashi. As such, it is a surprising comment from Shri Bhattacharjya

that I do not know that Mahashivaratri is celebrated on the 14th tithi of

Magha Krishna paksha!

 

On the other hand, Shri Bhattacharjya has to prove that Kaushitaki Brahman

has said that Magha Krishna Amavasya coincided with Uttarayana! It is

actually an impossible situation as per the Vedanga Jyotisha and even other

Vedic texts! Shri Bhattacharjya is trying to prove the impossible that

during the period of Kaushitaki Brahamna, a part of the Rig-vedic text,

Magha Shukla paksha started one month before Uttarayana and the Uttarayana

day would thus have coincided with Phalguna Shukla Pratipat instead of Magha

Shukla Pratipat! THAT IS WHY I ALWAYS INSIST ON SHRI BHATTACHARJYA QUOTING

THE EXACT MANTRAS WITH THEIR ENGLISH TRANSLATION, since he is taking

everybody for a ride otherwise!

 

<why is Jyotirved mentioning only one type of month of the Vedanga Jyotisha.

The Vedanga Jyotisha mentions two types of months ie the Sayana month of

Tapas, which started from the new Moon and also the Nirayana month of

Magha.>

 

Here also Shri Bhattacharjya is caught on the wrong foot by his own

misinterpretations of the Vedic mantras! As per the Vedanga Jyotisha fifth

mantra, “When the sun and the moon while moving in the sky, come to

Dhanishtha star together, then the yuga, the Magha, the Tapas, the bright

half of the month and the winter solstice, all commence together”.

 

So what is nirayana about it? The winter solstice coincided with the lunar

Magha Shukla Pratipat! Is that nirayana? THAT IS IN FACT THE REAL SAYANA!

 

The solar seasonal month of Tapas, viz. the first month of Shishira ritu,

coincided with Uttarayana! Is that nirayana? That itself means that the

lunar Magha Shukla pratipat coincided with the month of Tapas, which

according to Shri Bhattacharjya himself is Sayana! So what is nirayana

about any of these phenomena? If there had been any nirayana sickness

around then, the Winter solstice would have been later by about a month

after the lunar Magha.

 

<Jyotirved earlier referred to a verse by Manu where Manu had barred the

practitioners of Astrology from being invited to Pitri karya. Does that not

mean that there were Astrologers in the times of Manu. But Jyotirved made

self-contradictory statement that Astrology was not mentioned by Manu. Such

are his statements defying common sense and logic.>

 

This is the usual habit of Shri Bhattacharjya to twist and misinterpret

every statement! There were actually no Mesha etc. Rashis but only

Krittika, Rohini etc. nakshatras at the time of the Manusmriti. And that is

what I keep on repeating that Mesha etc. Rashis were an import of a much

later date and they are replicated in the Puranas as a ditto copy of the

Surya Sidhanta! That is why the Manu has not called phalita-jyotishis as

“Vedic astrologers” but just as nakshatra soochis/jeevis, perhaps on the

basis of works like Atharva-Veda Parishsishta.

 

Besides, the Manu has not only barred practitioners from being invited to

Pitri-Kriya, but he has categorically castigated nakshtra jeevis in the

following words in 3rd adhyaya, 162 Shloka,

 

" hasti go ashva ushtra damako NAKSHATRAIR YASHCHA JEEVATI, pakshinam poshako

yashchai, yudhacharyas tathaiva chai.. "

 

This shloka in the Manusmriti is actually in the context about as to which

people are to be debarred from performing diava and pitrya karyas i.e.

yajnyas etc for gods and oblations etc. for the Manes, and the Manu has said

unequivocally " Trainers of elephants, cows, horses; ANYONE WHO EARNS HIS

LIVELIHOOD BY DINT OF NAKSHATRAS and one who puts birds into cages are not

allowed to perform any daiva or pitra karya "

 

The Hindi translator of Kshemraj Shri Krishendas, Bombay, edition of the

Manusmriti has translated the above shloka as follows, “haathi, bail, ghoda

aur oont – in sabko sikhane wale aur JYOTISH SE JEEVIKA KARNE-WALE—yeh sab

shubha karya main varjit hain”. Is this the permission that the Manu is

supposed to have granted these " Vedic astrologers " for fleecing hte

gullible?

 

It is not only the Manu who has castigated nakshatra soochis/jeevis but even

Bhishma was ruthless about nakshatra-soochis. But about all that in a

separate post.

 

THE PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE LIKE SHRI BHATTACHARJYA IS THAT THEY GO ON

DISCUSSING A TOPIC FOR AEONS TOGETHER WITHOUT HAVING READ, MUCH LESS

PONDERED ON THE ORIGINAL WORK!

 

But what about the members of the forums? Why are they tolerating such an

ignorance in the name of facts and figures? That is the million dollar

question.

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

A K Kaul

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

 

>

 

Dear friends,

 

I believe that if one gives the the name of the book from which one quotes

that

is still creditable and if one gives the reference to the verses it is

admirable. If one does not give the exact verse it does not matter as one

who is

keen on the subject can always find out. Not quoting verse cannot be an

issue.

Jyotirved falsely claims he has read the Vedas and the Shastras. He always

misinterprets the verses. He is poor in Sanskrit as I have shown earlier.

 

1)

That the rashis are Nirayana is shown in Vamana purana, a fifth Veda text

and

even if Jyotirved goes on trying life after life he will not be able to

prove it

to the contrary and I am sure Lord Rama will not tolerate the

misinterpretation

of the Vamana Purana. One cannot pit any other authority other than the four

Vedas to contest the Vamana purana.

 

2)

Magha is related to Purnima in the Magha nakshatra and this makes it

Sidereal.Let Jyotirved go on claiming Magha to be Sayana and that does not

mean

anything to the people who knows this relation.

 

3)

Kaushitaki did say that the Magha Amavashya and Winter solstice coincided.

Jyotirved does not know that Mahashivaratri is celebrated in the 14th

tithi of

Magha Krishnapaksha (ie. the tithi before the Magha Amavashya). Had he known

that he would have understood what I said. As I said before " Samazdaroke

liye

Ishaaraahi kafi ha " and the Jyotirved is not one of them. If one gives the

reference the norms are satisfied.

 

4)

Jyotirved earlier referred to a verse by Manu where Manu had barred the

practitioners of Astrology from being invited to Pitri karya. Does that not

mean

that there were Astrologers in the times of Manu. But Jyotirved made

self-contradictory statement that Astrology was not mentioned by Manu. Such

are

his statements defying common sense and logic.

 

5)

why is Jyotirved mentioning only one type of month of the Vedanga Jyotisha .

The

Vedanga Jyotisha mentions two types of months ie the Sayana month of

Tapas,

which started from the new Moon and also the Nirayana month of Magha.

Jyotirved's calling the nakshatras as imaginary will not make the

imaginary.  Like the Vaman purana even Claudius Ptolemy also consideredÂ

Aldevaran (Rohini)Â to be at the middle of Taurus (Vrishava). The Aldevaran

Rohini) is not an imaginary nakshatra. Taurus is one of the twelve divisions

of

the zodiac corresponding to the Vrishava Rashi. Thus Claudius Ptolemy was

also

referring to the sidereal Zodiac. The western astrologers later on opted

for

the use of the Tropical Zodiac for their application. Tropical Zodiac

considers

only the Solar system, whereas the Sidereal system considers the entire

universe

including the Solar system. The Hindu Jyotisha is based on the Sidereal

system.

The merits and demerits of these two

systems of astrology is not our concern here, when we discuss the calendar.

 

6)

Jyotirved wanted to justify the celebration of Makar Sankranti on the date

the

Sun changes its gati from the Makar rekha. Now he admits that Makar Rekha is

not

to be found in the ancient texts as we know and he also accepts that now.

The

Makar Rekha has no relation with Makar Sankranti, which is observed on the

day

the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. In the 31st cenbtury BCE (ie. the century in

which the Mahabhatrata war took place) the Sun entered the Makar rashi in

the

Dakshinayana and any astronomer will tell you that. Thus Makar Sankranti has

no

permanent relation with the Uttarayana.

 

7)

Good that Jyotirved has now admitted that the Makar Rekha is not there

in

the ancient shastras. If he would have continued to evade that then nobody

would

have read his mail and I am sure about that.

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Sat, 11/28/09, jyotirved <jyotirved

</post?postID=VgAg-TUQDfqx3DvVgG6M

quqC1QDVPPF3EizUqe9E7IkS18uH8_tgNj7iRa6lbEIhRPoCMdzniIDr1yA> > wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

</post?postID=VgAg-TUQDfqx3DvVgG6M

quqC1QDVPPF3EizUqe9E7IkS18uH8_tgNj7iRa6lbEIhRPoCMdzniIDr1yA> >

[uSBrahmins] FW: Re: The Views of Patrizia

Norelli-Bachelet

usbrahmins

</post?postID=AdqgCtIFabHwcc3gUqFt

VaPBUPw00-SqPO7GONaljnq6WCvebBW0uKEFUvnptKxW9eVeMeuLRrPLxek1wmz0hE12xTE>

Saturday, November 28, 2009, 3:28 AM