Guest guest Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Harimallaji, Please keep your hypocrisy to yourself. Did you send the scanned copy of the that Kaundinya acharyaji's commentary on the commentary of Somakara to the Jyotishgroup. On the contrary you sent that to your friend Kaul's group. I know more about the works of the great scholars Bal Gangadhar tilakTilak and Shankar Balakrishna Dixit than you do. I respect the great scholarship of Tilak and admire his numerous valuable contributions such as the recovering of the lost verse of the Sankhya Karika, his book Gita Rahashya and the Orion, yet I reject his theory on the Arctic home of the Aryans. The present day scholars also do not agree with Tilak's view on that. Let us not forget that Tilak would have revised some of his views himself if he woiuld have been alive today becaues he was a lover of truth. So also is the case of Dixit. If he would have been alive today he too would have revised some of his ideas. The souls of both Tilak and Dixit will condemn those, who blindly stick to those ideas, which they would have rejected themselves today in the light of the vast amount of archaeological and other sciebtific findings. These two great scholars never talked about compromise. Learn from them these good things. Truth cannot be twisted. One must admit what is the truth. Only when one's own life is in danger and when one tells a joke then and then only one is allowed to speak an untruth . and not otherwise. Only crooks talk of compromising truth where is no need to as they do it for their own ulterior motives. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Wed, 11/18/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 4:27 AM  Dear Bhattacharyaji, Please read over the discussion of the two camps represented by Shankar BK Dixit and Balagangadhar Tilak in the nineteenth century, before you give your amateur comments. These men were very respected men of their times. Their views is dealt by Shakar Balakrishna Dixit in his Bharatiya jyotish. Please, first know the views of experts before passing comments.Let us see what they had said. It is very much necessary to study their above discussions. I hope you have the book.If not I can send the scanned pages. The two camps they represented have not succeeded so far to make progress any further. How long do you want the dead lock to continue? So it is better to compromise so that both the camps are adequetly represented in our present decision and settle the issue for good. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chaitra cannot be any other month as it is linked to the Chitra nakshatra. No change of name either of the nakshatra or of the month is possible. Only an utterly ignorant person will say so. But seeing their adamance it appears that these people have some ulterior motives for demanding the changa of name of the months and of the nakshatras. These adamant people are not willing to accept the other available ways. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Tue, 11/17/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 5:53 PM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > Thanks, > > Hari Malla > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Shri Harimallaji, 1) Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. 2) We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira's time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. 3) In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for you to undertand this. You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions. I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM  Dear Bhatachryaji, Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No compromise of any > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > Regards > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Shri Jyotirvedji, Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya 1) The Mahashivaratri is to be observed in the month of Magha and the month Magha is Sidereal. The required data is given in the Purana in terms of the Sidereal calendar. If you want to find the date of Shivaratri in the seasonal calendar then you have to superimpose the Seasonal calendar of that year on the Sidereal calendar of that same year. Anybody with a little grey matter will understand that. 2) As regards the Kaushitaki Brahmana have patience if you could not lay hands on that till now and read it when you get it. Don't expect to be spoon-fed everytime. 3) You said  ///// " This type of a definition of lunar months is a much later development " " ///// Stop forthwith your this type of harmful anti-vedic assertions without adducing any evidence. If you have read Rig Veda, as you claim to have done, then you must have noticed that Rig Veda says that " Moon is the maker of the month " . The Lunar month is as old as the Rig Veda. 4) You tried to justify celebration of Makar Sankranti on the shortest day by mentioning the Makar Rekha and now you have miserably failed to show the mention of the " Makar Rekha' In any of the ancient texts. Don't you freel guilty? Nobody will read a single line of yours until you show where you found mention of the Makar rekha in the ancient shastras. Also stop wasting everybody's time with your unnecessary long mails, as you have been doing for a number of years. Take some lessons on precis-writing before writing any mail. Sincerely, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 11/23/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote: jyotirved <jyotirved The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Cc: hinducalendar , vedic_research_institute Monday, November 23, 2009, 1:56 AM  Shri Suni Bhattacharjya ji, Jai Shri Ram! <The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on the Magha New-Moon> As I am unable to lay my hands on Kaushitaki Brahman right now, please quote the actual mantra with its translation, though that is what the Vedanga Jyotisha also has said in the sixth mantra, that the month of magha, Uttarayana and a new five year yuga start when they conjoin Dhanishtha star. <The seasonal month " Tapas " obviously started from that day and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day.> There can never be any link with New Moon day which is the start of Winter Solstice and Mahashivaratri! New Moon coinciding with winter solstice is actually the start of Magha Shukla Paksha, whereas Maha Shivaratri is to be celebrated after about twenty nine days of that New Moon which coincides with the Utttarayana! As such, it is impossible that Mahashivaratri festival and Magha Shukla Pratipat will coincide! You are therefore, either quoting a wrong mantra deliberately or there is some problem with your memory here also! <The Month of Magha is related to the Magha Nakshatra.  For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima on the Magha Nakshatra.> This type of a definition of lunar months is a much later development! Lunar months were named after solar months to start with, and that was happening in eleventh century India also as per Alberuni's India. If we go on following such fallacious theories, a time will come when the lunar Magha will start in Summer instead of Winter and Magha-snana will thus have to be held in summer instead of winter! <Of course the people, like me, who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of Magha.> Anybody can celebrate any festival on any day, but that does not mean that he/she is doing it as per the shastras! And the Gita is very clear that anybody going against shastras will have neither any happiness in this world nor in paraloka! < He has not told us uptill now where he found the mention of the " Makara Rekha " in the Ancient Indian shastras.> Not only Makar rashis but all the rashis have been discussed in quite a few Puranas like the Bhagavata, the Vishnupurana, the Vishnudharmotarapur a etc. They are all much later additions/alteratio ns in those Puranas and follow invariably the definition of the Surya Sidhanta, which is so called Sayana Rashichakra. It appears you have yet to go through BVB6, Rashi5 and 1999b.docs etc., leave alone the original puranas and shastras! Regarding Rashis in the Vedanga Jyotisha, anybody who has read that work fully will have to come to that very conclusion that the Rashi mantra in the Yajusha Jyotisham is nothing but spurious since it is entirely out of context and yields completely wrong results. It has been repeated by an innumerable number of scholars that Mesha etc. rashis were non-existent in India till the time of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha, since even in a compilation of five sidhantas as late as fifth century AD, we do not find any mention of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in any other work except the Surya Sidhanta! <As regards the Precession versus Uttarayana Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times.> Equinoxes and Solstices were falling in different nakshatras in different periods, and this is clear from the Vedic texts! But those very Equinoxes and Solstices were inseparably combined with so called Sayana Rashis as per the Siddhantas and the Puranas! Thus the real nakshatras had absolutely nothing to do with either Pauranic or siddhantic Rashis since nirayana rashis are non-existent not only in the shastras but even scientifically. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends. > > The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on the Magha New-Moon. The seasonal month " Tapas " obviously started from that day and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day. So the people like jyotirved and Darshaney, who advocate celebration of festivals according to the Seasonal calendar has to observe the Mahashivaratri on the seasonal month of Tapas. Jyotirved is foolishly thinking the month of Magha to be a seasonal month. The argument is clear and Simple. The Month of Magha is related to the Magha Nakshatra. For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima on the Magha Nakshatra. > > Of course the people, like me, who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of Magha. > > Jyotirved is confused and may be his memory is also playing tricks with him. My memory did not fail me. It fails every time in Jyotirved only. He has not told us uptill now where he found the mention of the " Makara Rekha " in the Ancient Indian shastras. I assure Jyotirved that I shall not forget his this bluff. His convenient acceptance of some editor's personal remark that the Rashi verse in the Vedanga Jyotisha could be interpolated as the Vedavakya, speaks of his lost balance of mind. Some Tom, Dinesh (Dick) and Hatim (Harry) asserts something and that becomes the GospelTtruth for Jyotirved and the poor members of these fora receive mails from such unscrupulous people. As regards the Precession versus Uttarayana Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times. > > Regards > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, jyotirved <jyotirved@. ..> wrote: > > jyotirved <jyotirved@. ..> > [VRI] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Cc: hinducalendar, vedic_research_ institute, " 'subash razdan' " > <subashrazdan@ ...> > Sunday, November 22, 2009, 12:53 AM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > < In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time > the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of > the seasonal month of Tapas> > > You are again requested to please give the exact references, > quoting the exact relevant mantras with their translation. You have already > been requested several times for this information, but you are dodging the > question again and again. Could it be that your memory is not serving you > properly here also, just as it did not serve you in case of INSA edition of the > VJ regarding the rashi mantra, that it had termed as noting but spurious or > your confusing Chaukhamba edition of Yogavasishtha as Gita Press edition! > >  > > <Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions proposed > that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic.> > > As per Shiva Mahapurana and Linga Purana etc., Maha > Shivaratri is to be celebrated on nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi of Magha (Gauna > Phallguna) Krishna paksha. Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon > after Uttarayana, and that is on January 16, 2010. Magha  (Gauna Phalguna) Krishna > Paksha starts on January 31, 2010. Accordingly, nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi > is on 12th of February, 2010, which corresponds to 23rd of Tapasya, and not > 12th of Tapasya, as erroneously (some memory problem again?!) pointed out by > you! So the Tithi_patrak of Shri Darshaney Lokesh  showing Mahashivaratri on > February 12, 2010 is quite correct! > >  > > Perhaps it may be news to you that in 2010, even > Lahiri-walas (including you!) will celebrate Mahashivaratri    on February 12 > which is 23rd of Tapasya! Why don't you muster some courage to castigate your > fellow Lahiriwalas and admonish them from celebrating Mahasivaratri after two > months of Utarayana, i.e. Winter Solstice Day, when it should be celebrated > according to you. > > Regarding precession vis-a-vis, Uttarayana, I suggest you > read some books on astronomy and then only enter into discussion on such topics > as otherwise it is just a wastage of time. > > Jai Shri Ram! > > A K Kaul > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > >  > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > 1) > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the > northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana > even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. > During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif > of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus > at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the > Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this > will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > 2) > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to > recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu > Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana > started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will > confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the > mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > 3) > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time > the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of > the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time > period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day > of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above > concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the > calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the > Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in > 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is > neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. > If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to > celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the > precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you > pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not > continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in > their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make > unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that > just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ .> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ .> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia > Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan > occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different > times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift > the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If > acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as > well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do > you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What > was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked > with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no > bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter > solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring > equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan > concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to > coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla > pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to > coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi > together.Thanks. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Dear friends, 1) Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. 2) He also said Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla wrote: hari <harimalla Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet To: Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM  Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Shri Harimallaji, > > 1) > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > 2) > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > 3) > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > you to undertand this. > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > Sincerely, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No compromise of any > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Re: Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Saturday, November 28, 2009, 1:47 PM  Dear friends, What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or just repetion of Harimalla's old views. Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra it does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement). Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. All his literary antics are delorable. This reminds me of the adage " Fools rush where angels fear to tread " Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> wrote: hari <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM  Dear RAjji, Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. Regards, Hari Malla , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear friends, > > 1) > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > 2) > He also said > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > hari <harimalla@. ..> > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > To: > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > 1) > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > 2) > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > 3) > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be > difficult for > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the Mahashivaratri two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other. Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be repeated. No > compromise of any > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Shri Hari Malla Ji, Jai Shri Ram! <They both pretend to know more than what they really know. My experience is they do not mind to belittle the shastras by evading and misinterpreting, if it suits their egos> That is real kettle calling the pot black! A gentleman who does not even know the actual name of his favourite flogging horse viz. " Barahamihira " is going to do the correct interpretation of shastras and the Vedas! You have forgotten that I had invited you to join hinducalendar forum, of which you are still a member, to discuss and evaluate your views as initially, you gave the impression that you were interested in the real Vedic calendar. We had thoroughly discussed all the points raised by you in that forum times without number and evaluated every single sentence of your prolific posts. This can be verified by any member of any forum who is also a member of hinducalendar forum. To start with I was myself at a loss to understand as to why you were trying so hard for such a useless and non-sense calendar! It was only much later that we came to know that you have a mandate as a paracharak from a particular ……. that you must thrust down the throat of unsuspecting Indian public a calendar which is neither scientific nor even as per geography, leave alone as per the Vedas and shastras. I had given you a polite warning in Hindiucalendar forum: “There is a limit to everything including patienceâ€. I am sure you will get a similar warning from other forums as well sooner than later. Regarding your “ request for some third party interventionâ€, you have yet another wrong impression in your over-enthusiasm that I have agreed for any intervention. Did I do so? No. As such, you can ask for “intervention†of your own views and not of AKK. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , " hari " <harimalla wrote: > > Dear Rajji and other friends, > Will it be possible to hear your comments on this matter? Bhattacharyaji and Kaulji are both biased persons. They both pretend to know more than what they really know. My experience is they do not mind to belittle the shastras by evading and misinterpreting, if it suits their egos. They are also fond of arguing for the sake of arguments. > Thus may I request for some third party intervention or attention so we can proceed with unbiased analysis of the shastras and the truth.Thanks, > Regards, > Hari Malla > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > What careful examination did Harimalla do? Just writing the phrase " on careful examination " does not make it careful exammination. Harimalla should give up his tricks. This forum has matured people and they can see whether it was careful examination or repetion of Harimalla's old views. > > > > Once the Uttarayana occurred in the Dhanishtha nakshatra does not mean that it will always occur there. So calling the Uttarayana a sidereal phenomenon is not appropriate as the Nakshatras do not have ayana (ie. movement) but Uttarayana has " ayana " built into it by definition / etymology. If you observe you will see that Harimalla's " Nirayana uttarayana " will mean " No ayana Uttarayana " or " Uttarayana with with no ayana " because Nirayana means : Nih (no) + ayana (movement) = Nirayana. > > > > Varahamihira observed the night sky with his naked eye as the ancient astronomers used to do and this practice of naked eye observation continued till the end of the nineteenth century to study the positions of the Grahas and the nakshatras. These days we can get the data from the modern astronomical societies or institutions and cansee that the Uttarayana occurs in the Dhanu rashi. > > > > I am only asking that one should take the actual positions of the occurrence of the Uttarayana just like Darshaneyji had done. Darshaneyji should amalgamate his seasonal calendar with the Sidereal calendar so that he should be able to accommodate the festivals like Ram Navami in the shuklanavami of the purnimanta Chaitra month and Mahashivaratri in the Krishnachaturdashi of the purnimanta Magha month. > > > > It appears the subject is beyond the comprehension of Harimalla and he should desist from writing on it. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/28/09, hari harimalla@ wrote: > > > > hari harimalla@ > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear RAjji, > > > > Bhattacharyaji seems to be right at the face of it. But on careful consideration we have to consider these points too. > > > > 1)Although Vedang jyotish does not say 'sun in dhanistha' is the 'niryan' postion, we know that since the sun postion is referred to the seteller position it is nothing but 'nirayan' postion, by the modern reckoning and definition of steller or sidereal as nirayan. > > > > > > > > 2)Secondly since this sun's steller position at dhanistha,was equated with uttarayan by the 6th sloka of Yajur vedanga jyotish, it was the nirayan uttarayan of those days, in the same sense, we take makar sankranti as the nirayan uttaryan sankranti of today. It is not that makar sankranti was the uttarayan at Barahmihir's time only, but it is still the uttarayan of today, as we clebrate uttarayan at makar sankranti even now a days, which is specifically mentioned as uttarayan in our present panchangas, even if shri Bhattacharyaji would like to deny that it is the present uttaryan. > > > > > > > > 3)Letus not forget what Barahmihir says in his Brihad samhita.We can easily deduce from his expression, that the sun in dhanistha postion was taken as uttarayan nearly upto Barhmihir's time, say for about 1700 years after the start of Vedanga jyotish.Since it remained nirayan for so long a time,surely our system is limited nirayan. > > > > But we cannot say it is indefintiely nirayan,as Bhattacharyaji would like to think, since Barah mihir did eventually correct it and shifted it to makar sankranti, which we have not been able to shift even today, when its date also has already expired. There is no use denying facts.Please know that it is the nirayan uttarayan of today, till we shift uttrayn to a new position again. > > > > 4) Last but not the least,If our system was indefinitely nirayan as shri Bhatachryaji claims, and if it is free from the tropical uttarayan, then we could have still used the 'sun in dhanistha' postion of vedanga jyotish as the nirayan uttarayan of today and there was no need for Barhmihir to correct it to make it compatible with the uttarayan of Barhmihir's time.Thus this shows that although our system is nirayan, but it is limited nirayan and we have to coorect it from time to time to make it compatible with the sayan uttarayan which is the actual uttarayan like Barahmihir had done. > > > > Regards, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimalla himself admitted as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir > > > > > has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in > > > > > the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those > > > > > days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are celebrating the Makar Sankranti when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi and that is unrelated to the Uttarayana. The Makar Sankranti now falls within the six-month period of Uttarayana starting from the Dhanu Rashi. But does he know that in the Mahabharata times the Sun entered the Makar Rashi in the Dakshinayana (ie. then the Makara Sankranti was in the Daksjinayana) and not in the Uttarayana? Any astronomer will tell him that. There is nothing like Nirayana uttarayana. In Vedanga Jyotisha it was not called Nirayana uttarayana. In the time of the composition of the the Vedanga jyotisha it occurred in the Nirayana Magha month and at that time it was the first seasonal month of the Sishir ritu, ie. the Tapas as Tapas always starts from the Uttarayana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > He also said > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of > > > > > the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in > > > > > dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri > > > > > Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I repeat that Varahamihira did not change anything. The start of Uttarayana shifted due to the Precession of the earth and not due to Varahamihira and Varahamihira accepted that phenomenon gracefully. He did not want any credit or discredit that he had changed it. When the Winter Solstice occurred in his time he observed the position of the nakshatras in the sky and he knew that the Sun was not in the Dhanistha nakshatra but in the early part of the Makar rashi. In the ancient times the Jyotishis observed the night sky with their naked eye. Why to speak of the ancient times, even in the nineteenth century there were Jyotishis who observed the night sky for the position of the Grahas and the Nakshatras. Varahamihira simply acknowledged the effects of the precession of the earth. I think it is beyond Shri Harimalla's comprehension so he should leave it at that. Why should he rake his grey matter if he is finding it difficult to understand. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 27, 2009, 8:03 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji and RAjji, > > > > > > > > > > Let us please discuss this issue jointly.I find it difficult to explain what I mean to Bhattacharyaji. Thus I request shree RAjji also to join us here. I had said in my previous mail as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.> > > > > > > > > > > Let me further clarify my own statement.My intention ws that Barahmihir has mentioned in his Brihad Samhita, chapter Adityacharadhyaya that in the olden days uttaryan occurred in dhanistha because it was true those days, but by his time uttaryan had come to makar sankranti. Sinc we are using makar sankranti even now as the 'nirayan' uttarayan,he did shift the nirayan uttarayan of vedanga jyotish,ie 'sun in dhannitatha' to the nirayan uttarayan as 'makar sankranti' which is continued even till this day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But shri Bhattacharyaji has replied thus: > > > > > > > > > > <We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people.> > > > > > > > > > > Now my intention is that Barahmihir did not only change the mind set of the blind people, but he shifted the nirayan uttarayan from the 'sun in dhaninstha'position to the 'sun in makar sankranti'position. Shri Rajji, Please give your opinion if I am right or not. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > > > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > > > > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not > > be > > > > > difficult for > > > > > > > > > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi together.Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody connected with calendar seems to avoid the Mahashivaratri issue. This year in February 2009 we observed the MahashivaratriÃÆ'‚ two months after the Winter Solstice in December 2008, whereas in the Kaushitaki Brahman the Shivaratri coincided with the Winter solstice. This is a clear case of ignoring the Sayana calendar for observing one of the most important festival of the Hindus. If one respects the Vedas and the Vedic calendar then any proposedcalendar should be able to explain the growing distance between the date of the Winter Solstice and the date of the Mahashivararti. Friends, who are genuinely interested in Vidic Calendar please wake up and look at the case mentioned, which will tell you that the Sayana and the Nirayana Calendars can coexist side by side without interfering with each other.ÃÆ'‚ Approximately every 25,800 years the the angular difference between the Sayana and the Nirayana positions will be > > repeated. No > > > > > compromise of any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sort will be required in Vedic calendar. A time will come when the Mahashivaratri will again coincide with the Winter Solstice. Of course you and me may not be there to see that happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, hari <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, November 20, 2009, 7:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly confirm if the vedic correlationship I have drawn is satisfactory to you or not. Step by step we should proceed to arrive at the correct way of reforming our vedic calendar. This correction is of dire necessity now, since our populace are celebrating the festivals on wrong days,say lagging one month behind the schedule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The lunar dates are controlled by the sidereal sankrantis as you must be well knowing. But for them to get the actual seasonal value these same tithis must also touch the sayan dates. For example, during the sidhanta jyotish period,poush purnima was the uttaryan tithi which is the celebrations dates even today, and during the vedanga jyotiish period maagha sukla pratipada was the uttaryan tithi. Although they were related to the makar sankanti and the sun in dhanistha positions respectively, both of which are nirayan dates, they also touched the sayan uttarayan dates and got the true tropical values as well in a coordinated manner during the repective epochs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now since poush purnima does not touch the actual uttrayan date, this makes it necesssary to correct our vedic calendar again as was done before, as mentioned by Brahmihir in his Brihad samhita.He has said 'In the old scriptures it is mentioned that uttarayan occurs when the sun was in dhanistha nakshyatra, because it was true those days. But now uttrayan occurs when the sun is in makar sankranti, which can be verified practically. ' Thus by shifting the sidereal uttarayan to makar sankranti and the uttarayan tithi to poush purnima, which is evident by the shift of maagha snana,the coordination of the tropical uttaryan date and the sidereal utrarayan date by the respective tithi was maintained after reformation those days, say less than two thousand years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we also not do the reformation in the same way, to satisfy the vedic coordination clause specified by the sixth sloka of yajur vedang jyotish is my question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please give your valuable suggestion. Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the Sayana system that is truly Vedic and thats exactly what the Rishi's used. The Nirayana system is non-vedic. Its not based on proper understanding of the Vedic Sacrifice. Sri Aurobindo came to give the correct interpretation of the Veda. And in the Aurobindo Ashram and also in Auroville only Sayana system is used. Only the tropical zodiac is the correct system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harish Kumar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Harishkumar ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The intention of PNB may be correct as far as our calenar has gone out of tract. But taking the sayan system is not a vedic suggestion, it is the Gregorian suggestion. The vedic suggestion would be to maintain the nirayan saytem and yet reform our calendar the vedic way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can easily be done by shifting our time frame by one whole month, so that our present Chaitra becoems the new Vaisakh or the present Meen sankranti becomes the new epochal Mesh sankranti. By this way the calendar is both reformed and the current nirayan system remains as it is. This method is the coordination of the concepts of two stalwarts of the nieteeth century- Bala ganagdhar Tilak and Shakar BK Dikshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the best way to reform our calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Harry " <harishkumar09@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the members of this group gone through the works of Patrizia Norelli Bachelet(PNB) and her views on astrology ? She advocates the Sayana Tropical Zodiac as the correct system. She traces the problems of India to a faulty calender and states rectification of it will make us perceive the Cosmic Harmonies which will bring forth the Satya Yuga the Age of Truth. What has been lost is the perfect measure of Time which needs to be retrieved. A resetting of the cosmic clock is necessary according to her for us to See the Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly,its obvious to a child that Makara Sankranti should be celebrated on 21 December on Winter Solstice day,the shortest day of the year. But the current Nirayana system celebrates it 23 days later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I give below a few useful links : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.aeongroup. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.patrizianorelli bachelet. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 IndiaArchaeology , " Koenraad " <koenraad.elst wrote: IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > > 1) > That the rashis are Nirayana is shown in Vamana purana, a fifth Veda text and even if Jyotirved goes on trying life after life he will not be able to prove it to the contrary and I am sure Lord Rama will not tolerate the misinterpretation of the Vamana Purana. One cannot pit any other authority other than the four Vedas to contest the Vamana purana. > What a horrible level of discussion. Hinduism is dead if you all don't react to this braindead reasoning. The Vedas and Puranas are only books. At best, they relay knowledge. The value of that knowledge can be evaluated by people with equal or better knowledge. On astronomyn, our knowledge is better than that of al Veda and Purana authors together. Those who are donkeys carrying treasures on their backs without realizing their value, i.e. those who merely extol the scriptures without reading them critically, are unfit for such evaluation. > 2) > Magha is related to Purnima in the Magha nakshatra and this makes it Sidereal.Let Jyotirved go on claiming Magha to be Sayana and that does not mean anything to the people who knows this relation. > The star Regulus/Magha is by definition sidereal. I have already tried to explain to Jyotirved that his attempts to (re)install the sayana/tropical zodiac/calendar are doomed unless he is ready to relinquish the sidereal month names. It makes no sense to jettison the sidereal zodiac yet retain sidereal month names. Magha has no place in a tropical calendar. > 3) > Kaushitaki did say that the Magha Amavashya and Winter solstice coincided. Jyotirved does not know that Mahashivaratri is celebrated in the 14th tithi of Magha Krishnapaksha (ie. the tithi before the Magha Amavashya).< You are counting Purnimadi months. Did Kaushitaki and his contemporaries do so? Good at any rate of Kaushitaki to mention the relation between the solstice and a fixed star, Regulus/Magha. I discussed it in the astronomy chapter of my book Asterisk in Bharopiyasthan, which is on-line. Because winter solstice is tropical and Magha sidereal, the coinciding of the two gives us a precise precessional chronology. One that happens to conflict with the standard AIT chronology, though that's not the point here. What the precessional info given by Kaushitaki does not decidde, is whether it is a factual observation or a definition. In the latter case, Shivaratri was meant to be a solstice festival, which makes sense because it's the longest night, logically dedicated to the moon-god Shiva. In the former, it leaves open the possibility that Shivaratri was a sidereal festival with no connection to any earthly cycles. That would mean the Vedic cowherds had their heads in the sky and ignored the world around them. I tend to think higher of them, more robust and realistic. > > 4) > Jyotirved earlier referred to a verse by Manu where Manu had barred the practitioners of Astrology from being invited to Pitri karya. Does that not mean that there were Astrologers in the times of Manu. But Jyotirved made self-contradictory statement that Astrology was not mentioned by Manu. Such are his statements defying common sense and logic. > Of course, in the time of the self-styled " Manu " , probably 1st century CE, there wereastrologers in India, a novelty imported from Greek Afghanistan and beyond. That foreignness may be a typical Manu reason for opposing them. Manu preferred the Vedas (or what he imagined the Vedas to be) and never liked these foreign non-Vedic innovations. > 5) > ... Like the Vaman purana even Claudius Ptolemy also considered Aldevaran (Rohini) to be at the middle of Taurus (Vrishava). The Aldevaran Rohini) is not an imaginary nakshatra. Taurus is one of the twelve divisions of the zodiac corresponding to the Vrishava Rashi. Thus Claudius Ptolemy was also referring to the sidereal Zodiac. The western astrologers later on opted for the use of the Tropical Zodiac for their application.< Ptolemy was already adopting the tropical zodiac in principle, though he wasn't entirely clear on the difference yet, easy because the two zodiacs practically coincided in his day. In discussing the system of exaltation, he says that the sun is exalted in Aries and Saturn in Libra because they mark spring, when the sun becomes strong, and autiumn, when Saturnine coldness starts prevailing. So, he attached seasonal (= tropical) phenomena to the zodiac signs. >Tropical Zodiac considers only the Solar system, whereas the Sidereal system considers the entire universe including the Solar system. The Hindu Jyotisha is based on the Sidereal system.< To their misfortune, the confused Hindu astrologers did indeed stick to the sidereal auxiliary zodiac, useful as a visual aid for the tropical zodiac when the two coincided, but misleading when they drifted apart. When I see the mad fanaticism with which some Hindus cling to ill-understood pieces of scripture (cfr. supra), I can imagine them clinging equally ferociously to an anachronistic zodiac. > > 6)... Makar Sankranti, which is observed on the day the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. In the 31st cenbtury BCE (ie. the century in which the Mahabhatrata war took place) the Sun entered the Makar rashi in the Dakshinayana and any astronomer will tell you that. Thus Makar Sankranti has no permanent relation with the Uttarayana. > Of course, by definition the *sidereal* Makar Sankranti has no relation to the winter solstice, whereas the tropical Makar Sankranti *is* the winter solstice. Jyotirved obviously knows that, it's his whole point, and if you are under the impression that this is what you needed to explain to him, it only shows you don't understand this whole issue at all. And because the sidereal Makar Sankranti has nothing to do with the winter solstice, it is not worth celebrating. It is only one of twelve siderela sankrantis, which are all equal in status. By contrast, in the tropical zodiac the Makar Sankranti is unique, because of all entrance points of tropical signs, it is the only one that marks the Return of the Sun to the north. And now I am once more going to receive mails off-list from Hindus who deplore that i get sidetracked into discussions with people who aren't worth it and only waste everybody's time with their incurable incomprehension. Kind regards, KE --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Dear Mr Koenraad, < Those who are donkeys carrying treasures on their backs without realizing their value > I have already shown in 2-3 mails of yours who is Donkey and also let me show in this mail who is Donkey.. < And now I am once more going to receive mails off-list from Hindus who deplore that i get sidetracked into discussions with people who aren't worth it and only waste everybody's time with their incurable incomprehension. > Why you don't show to all, what was written in the off-list mail which I also forwarded on this group ie `JYOTISHGROUP'? But why you will relay on those groups of which you are member as in those mails I have shown the loop holes. Now see loop holes in the below mails. < The value of that knowledge can be evaluated by people with equal or better knowledge. > Oh yes, saying right. Firstly let me evaluate your knowledge and level of intelligence. BTW all ppl do mud slinging in the same fashion, what you have written above. < On astronomyn, our knowledge is better than that of al Veda and Purana authors together. > First thing, Hipparchus was using star lore of 1200 BCE of Assyrians (Ashur Brahmins, descendants of Bhrigu, Atri and Kashyap Rishi). Hipparchus was from Iraq ( Assyrians region) not from Greece, Egypt. Ptolmey is the man of second century AD but on this earth no scholar can prove that Farnese globe is of Ptolemy's era ie of ADs instead of BCE's. So, Is Ptolemy not a thief ?? When Gallileo and Copernicus in 15 Cent AD and 17 Cent AD told all Christians and Europe that Solar system is not Geo-Centric then you all got to know that it is Helio-Centric. (Though whole Europe from 800 BCE to 400 AD was influenced by Sanathan Dharma, VEDIC knowledge, but now those persons have been converted to CHRISTIANITY) But Rig Veda clearly says that we were aware of Helio-Centric system. Hymns are as below :- A ) Rig Veda - 8.12.30 30 - When yonder Sun, that brilliant light, thou settest in the heaven above, Even then all creatures that had life bowed down to thee. B ) Rig Veda - 3.59.1 1. MITRA, when speaking, stirreth men to labour: Mitra sustaineth both the earth and heaven. Mitra beholdeth men with eyes that close not. To Mitra bring, with holy oil, oblation. C ) Rig Veda - 10.85.1 Earth is upheld by Truth. Heaven is upheld by the sun. The solar regions are supported by eternal laws, rita. The elixir of divine love is supreme in heaven. D ) Rig Veda - 1.22.16 Let all luminous objects and physical forces come to our safety because sun crosses the world by three steps - the dawn, noon and dusk. It sustains the earth with seven rays E ) Rig Veda - 10.189.1 1. THIS spotted Bull hath come, and sat before the Mother in the east, Advancing to his Father heaven. Now tell me who is Great and who were having better knowledge of astronomy! Regs, Prashant Pandey CC :- Koenraad Elst PS-1 :- This is also off list mail for you, I am only member of `JYOTISHGROUP' and don't have faith on others so I pass my msgs here only. PS-2 :- I will also show your's many mistakes of astronomy in the present mail, which are coming next, BTW in 3 mails I already have shown your mistakes but you were not able to speak even a single word. , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: > > > IndiaArchaeology , " Koenraad " <koenraad.elst@> > wrote: > > > IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya > sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > > > > > 1) > > That the rashis are Nirayana is shown in Vamana purana, a fifth Veda > text and even if Jyotirved goes on trying life after life he will not be > able to prove it to the contrary and I am sure Lord Rama will not > tolerate the misinterpretation of the Vamana Purana. One cannot pit any > other authority other than the four Vedas to contest the Vamana purana. > > > > > What a horrible level of discussion. Hinduism is dead if you all don't > react to this braindead reasoning. The Vedas and Puranas are only books. > At best, they relay knowledge. The value of that knowledge can be > evaluated by people with equal or better knowledge. On astronomyn, our > knowledge is better than that of al Veda and Purana authors together. > Those who are donkeys carrying treasures on their backs without > realizing their value, i.e. those who merely extol the scriptures > without reading them critically, are unfit for such evaluation. > > > > 2) > > Magha is related to Purnima in the Magha nakshatra and this makes it > Sidereal.Let Jyotirved go on claiming Magha to be Sayana and that does > not mean anything to the people who knows this relation. > > > > The star Regulus/Magha is by definition sidereal. I have already tried > to explain to Jyotirved that his attempts to (re)install the > sayana/tropical zodiac/calendar are doomed unless he is ready to > relinquish the sidereal month names. It makes no sense to jettison the > sidereal zodiac yet retain sidereal month names. Magha has no place in a > tropical calendar. > > > 3) > > Kaushitaki did say that the Magha Amavashya and Winter solstice > coincided. Jyotirved does not know that Mahashivaratri is > celebrated in the 14th tithi of Magha Krishnapaksha (ie. the tithi > before the Magha Amavashya).< > > You are counting Purnimadi months. Did Kaushitaki and his contemporaries > do so? > > Good at any rate of Kaushitaki to mention the relation between the > solstice and a fixed star, Regulus/Magha. I discussed it in the > astronomy chapter of my book Asterisk in Bharopiyasthan, which is > on-line. Because winter solstice is tropical and Magha sidereal, the > coinciding of the two gives us a precise precessional chronology. One > that happens to conflict with the standard AIT chronology, though that's > not the point here. > > What the precessional info given by Kaushitaki does not decidde, is > whether it is a factual observation or a definition. In the latter case, > Shivaratri was meant to be a solstice festival, which makes sense > because it's the longest night, logically dedicated to the moon-god > Shiva. In the former, it leaves open the possibility that Shivaratri was > a sidereal festival with no connection to any earthly cycles. That would > mean the Vedic cowherds had their heads in the sky and ignored the world > around them. I tend to think higher of them, more robust and realistic. > > > > > > 4) > > Jyotirved earlier referred to a verse by Manu where Manu had barred > the practitioners of Astrology from being invited to Pitri karya. Does > that not mean that there were Astrologers in the times of Manu. But > Jyotirved made self-contradictory statement that Astrology was not > mentioned by Manu. Such are his statements defying common sense and > logic. > > > > Of course, in the time of the self-styled " Manu " , probably 1st century > CE, there wereastrologers in India, a novelty imported from Greek > Afghanistan and beyond. That foreignness may be a typical Manu reason > for opposing them. Manu preferred the Vedas (or what he imagined the > Vedas to be) and never liked these foreign non-Vedic innovations. > > > > > > 5) > > ... Like the Vaman purana even Claudius Ptolemy also considered > Aldevaran (Rohini) to be at the middle of Taurus (Vrishava). The > Aldevaran Rohini) is not an imaginary nakshatra. Taurus is one of the > twelve divisions of the zodiac corresponding to the Vrishava Rashi. Thus > Claudius Ptolemy was also referring to the sidereal Zodiac. The western > astrologers later on opted for the use of the Tropical Zodiac for > their application.< > > Ptolemy was already adopting the tropical zodiac in principle, though he > wasn't entirely clear on the difference yet, easy because the two > zodiacs practically coincided in his day. In discussing the system of > exaltation, he says that the sun is exalted in Aries and Saturn in Libra > because they mark spring, when the sun becomes strong, and autiumn, when > Saturnine coldness starts prevailing. So, he attached seasonal (= > tropical) phenomena to the zodiac signs. > > > > >Tropical Zodiac considers only the Solar system, whereas the Sidereal > system considers the entire universe including the Solar system. The > Hindu Jyotisha is based on the Sidereal system.< > > To their misfortune, the confused Hindu astrologers did indeed stick to > the sidereal auxiliary zodiac, useful as a visual aid for the tropical > zodiac when the two coincided, but misleading when they drifted apart. > When I see the mad fanaticism with which some Hindus cling to > ill-understood pieces of scripture (cfr. supra), I can imagine them > clinging equally ferociously to an anachronistic zodiac. > > > > > 6)... Makar Sankranti, which is observed on the day the Sun enters the > Makar Rashi. In the 31st cenbtury BCE (ie. the century in which the > Mahabhatrata war took place) the Sun entered the Makar rashi in the > Dakshinayana and any astronomer will tell you that. Thus Makar Sankranti > has no permanent relation with the Uttarayana. > > > > Of course, by definition the *sidereal* Makar Sankranti has no relation > to the winter solstice, whereas the tropical Makar Sankranti *is* the > winter solstice. Jyotirved obviously knows that, it's his whole point, > and if you are under the impression that this is what you needed to > explain to him, it only shows you don't understand this whole issue at > all. > > And because the sidereal Makar Sankranti has nothing to do with the > winter solstice, it is not worth celebrating. It is only one of twelve > siderela sankrantis, which are all equal in status. By contrast, in the > tropical zodiac the Makar Sankranti is unique, because of all entrance > points of tropical signs, it is the only one that marks the Return of > the Sun to the north. > > And now I am once more going to receive mails off-list from Hindus who > deplore that i get sidetracked into discussions with people who aren't > worth it and only waste everybody's time with their incurable > incomprehension. > > Kind regards, > > KE > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Hari Malla ji, Jai Shri Ram! < But the stars like dhanistha or makar sankranti are fixed points, which can be seen by the naked eyes.> You are absolutely wrong! Dhanishtha is a star known as Beta/Alpha Delphini which has a present longitude of about 317 degrees from Mean Equator and Equinox of date whereas Makar Sankranti is the ingress of the sun into an imaginary point which nobody, including you, knows as to what the longitude of that point is! Which Sankranti can you see with " naked eyes " ? Till date I had heard " Tapasvisnis " seeing Makar Samkranti through their tapasya and some parokshya-walas seeing it through their parokshya- knowledge but you must really be a superhuman being surpassing all the rest of such beings since you can see even imaginary Makar Samkranti points with naked eyes without any tapasya or parokshya knowledge either! Why are you putting your ignorance on public display with such nonsense statements? No wonder, it is because of people like you who can see " makar sankrantis with naked eyes " that we have never been able to streamline the Hindu calendar over the last several centuries! <So it was convenient to fix the sun in dhanistha position, as uttarayan for convenience of observation during Vedanga jyotish days.It was also convenient to fix makar sankranti as uttarayan during the early century of Vikram Sambat.> The Uttarayana is these days taking place around the midpoint of Lambda Scorpii and Delta Sagitarii (Mula and Purvashadha) stars. Why don't you club it with those two nakshatras/junction stars and why do you want to correlate it to some imaginary division known as Makar Sankranti and then simultaneosuly tell us in the same breath that no, Uttarayana is not taking place simultaneously with Makar Sankranti these days? <It was also costumary to fix separate uttarayan dates by lunar tithi.During Vedanga jyotish they fixed Maagha sukla pratipada to represent uttarayan> Yet another fantastic statement! The VJ has never said that Uttarayana fell every year on the same lunar tithi! Obviously, you have not read even the VJ fully but are still pontificating on the same! <I do agree with you.Only for people who did not understand like shri Kaulji I used the word convenience, so he may understand some aspect at least.> Again the same blah, blah, blah! what is convenient or inconvenient about celebrating uttarayana, a geographical phenomenon? It takes place every year these days around December 21/22. Anybody can see that date and time from the internet these days. Why do you want to club it with any lunar tithi or any imaginary sankranti etc. at all? Let anybody celebrate any Sankranti on any day he or she likes to! Why should you thrust your pet calendar down the throat of every Hindu, just because you are mandated to do so? The VJ has never advised you to celebrate any so called Makar or Kumbha etc. Sankrantis. All it has advised you to do is to celebrate the two ayanas and vishuvas, apart from madhu, Madhava etc. months, to which are pegged the lunar months viz. Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. etc. It is the siddhntas that talk of Makar and Kumbha etc. samkrantis. And they are so called sayana. Same is the case with the Puranas. Pauranic Sankrantis also are sayana. As such, if you have to advocate any Sankranti on the shoulders of the siddhantas or Puranas, it has to be so called sayana and nothing else. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul HinduCalendar , " hari " harimalla@ wrote: > > > Dear Bhupendra Jamnadasji, > > Thank you fo your interest in the issue.You know uttarayan is a changing point every year with respect to the stars. But the stars like dhanistha or makar sankranti are fixed points, which can be seen by the naked eyes. So it was convenient to fix the sun in dhanistha position, as uttarayan for convenience of observation during Vedanga jyotish days.It was also convenient to fix makar sankranti as uttarayan during the early century of Vikram Sambat.Once it was fixed, these points remained as nirayan uttarayan for a very long time say one thousand to two thousand years.In fact it wsa a necessary convenience. > It was also costumary to fix separate uttarayan dates by lunar tithi.During Vedanga jyotish they fixed Maagha sukla pratipada to represent uttarayan. And during sidhant period they fixed Poush purnima as the lunar uttarayan.These lunar dates fluctuated over a month due to adhimas. Thus as these tithis fluctuated over a region, which contained the actual uttarayan they did not find it necessary to shift the nirayn uttarayan with the sun fixed at certain star, frequently.Thus you are quite right when you say that they were quite elaborate and did not do so only for conveneience.I fully agree with you. But the method they followed were not only convenient but also elaboraate and exactly meaningful. I do agree with you.Only for people who did not understand like shri Kaulji I used the word convenience, so he may understand some aspect at least. > Regards, > Hari Malla > > - In HinduCalendar , Bhupendra Jamnadas b_jamnadas@ wrote: > > > > Namaste Hari mala Ji, > > > > Could not avoid noticing this exchange between you and AK Kaul Ji. What you are suggesting here is that for convenience purpose only, the scriptures have indicate 1st day Makar Sanskranti to mark the beginning of Uttarayana. Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year, what additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also not going to be on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a separate date on the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sanskranti. If the scriptures are out convenience trying to bundle to 2 events in a single calender event, it seems very dubious and indicates scriptures that were doctored by people who somehow were trying to fit these events into their methematical model and were having trouble syncing their calculations with actual phenomena of the shortest day. > > > > Our scriptures are very elaborate, it does not make sense that just out of convenience, these 2 events are bundled into one for the sake simpler calender. There is something definitely wrong here. > > > > Regards, > > Bhupendra. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > hari harimalla@ > > HinduCalendar > > Wed, December 16, 2009 1:48:30 AM > > [HinduCalendar] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > > > Â > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > Namskar! I again find your patience is exhausted. I will not trouble you much more. Nonetheless, I would like to request you to confirm one fact, so the truth is clarified. Between makar sankranti and uttarayana let us find which is the primary horse and which is the secondary cart.The question is what do the shastras say? Does uttrayan start from makar sankranti or does makar sankranti start from uttarayan? If the first part is true then makar sankranti is nirayan, if the second part is true then makar sankranti is sayan.Kindly confirm from the sidhantas and puranas which is true, whether it is uttarayan which starts from makar sankranti or makar sankranti starts from uttarayan. > > With this test your confusion will surely vanish. Thank you for your last patience.My point is uttarayan starts from makar sakranti,(refer: The six months of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat sankranti-SS) which means that makar sankranti is the land mark for the start of uttaryan, only for convenience of daily use, although it may not be exactly true over a long time. This surely proves that makar sankranti does not start from uttarayan.Kindly check it from the shastras.Thank you. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > HinduCalendar, " Krishen " <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Shri Hari Mallaji, > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > On reading your post, I regret my decision of allowing the same on this forum, since all you are interested in is propagating a calendar which you have a mandate to do, instead of going as per any dharma shastra or purana or sidhanta! If anyone points out those anachronisms to you, he is " blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas " according to you. > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > Namaskar!In continuation of my last mail, I add the following comments. > > > > My previous statement: > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.> > > > > Your comment in reply: > > > > <It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > > > > You are blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas.The puranas and sidhantas do not call uttarayan as makar sankranti, but celebrate uttarayan by makar sankranti by equating one with the other.This equation is the vedic way of coordinating the tropical and sidereal concepts. > > > > Uttarayan is a geographical event which occurs on the shortest day but is celebrated on the day near it. The celebration is done on the first day of the solar and the lunar months like maagha sukla pratipada or makar sankranti which is the first day of the solar maagha. Since these months are attached to the rashis and nakshyatras, which are thus nirayan or not moving with the seasons,the days of celebrations do not fall on the actual uttarayan date which is tropical or seasonal. Solar uttarayan, known as uttaryan sankranti in dharma shastras, is the first day of the solar month of maagha. Lunar uttarayan tithi falls on the first day of the lunar month of maagha.At present the lunar uttarayan is celebrated on poush purnima, which is one day previous to the lunar purnimanta month of maagha (maagha krishna pratipada). We thus celebrate uttaryan not on the actual uttarayan date which may fall on any date, but only on the first day of solar and\or lunar > > month. This is the basis given by all the sidhantas and puranas. This is certainly so, only if you do not misinterpret these dates to be tropical uttarayan date. This is also confirmed by the practice itself.Please read Dharma sindhu, which talk of both the solar and the lunar seasons. > > > > Our shastras prohibit us, not to celebrate on the actual uttarayan date.The reason given for this is that the uttarayan date being related to the earth axis is tilted further away from the lunar pole than the eliptic pole. The lunar pole and the ecliptic pole are closer being separated by only 5 degrees. This has been explained by a story which says Brahmaji (dhruva bindu) is not to be worshipped because he pretended or lied, to have touched the top of the lunar pole, known as jyotir linga of lord Shiva. This means that dhurva bindu is not the highest point, but the lunar pole or ecliptic pole near it, is higher. > > > > > > > > <Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and magha start from the day of Uttarayana!> > > > > > > > > Sorry to differ form your interpretation of VJ. VJ says that uttarayan occurs when the sun is in dhanistha, or when it is maagha(or tapa) sukla pratipada.Thus uttarayn date is not the start of tapa sukla pratipada but tapa sukla pratipada is the representative day of uttarayan (ie.is assumed to be uttrayan for the civil celebrations) . Tapa sukla pratipada touches uttarayan date while it fluctuates back and forth during the fluctuation caused by the adhimases. The lunar uttarayan date, tapa sukla pratipada touches both the solar uttarayan date of 'sun in dhanistha' and the actual uttarayan. > > > > > > > > <Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima.> > > > > > > > > You have also gone out of tract here.Please learn to give up the idea of purnima succeeding or preceding uttarayan.'Utttarya n purnima' is that purnima which goes both before and after uttarayan.Also tapa sukla pratipada or 'uttarayan pratipada' is the pratipada which goes both before and after uttarayan.This will be clear if you analyse the flucatuation of the uttarayan tithi in the various eras both vedanga and sidhanta.During vedanga jyotish, maagha sukla pratipada went both before and after uttarayan, thus it was the uttarayan pratipada or tithi. In sidhanta period poush purnima 15 days before maagha sukla pratipada, went both before and after uttarayan.Thus this was the uttarayan tithi and maagha snana was celebrated on this date. These will be clear if you study the scientific basis of calendar reform given by a drawing in the prvasudhar forum. Unless you learn to study this drawing you will be in confusion for a long time more.SO kindly study > > this drawing.The drawings are many times more helpful than the words to understand facts. > > > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > > > <Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to dharmashatras! > > > > > > > > > Shall I say ignorance is bliss! Please read Dharma sindhu and confirm that it is indeed so.Vaisakh snana is prescribed from the Chaitra purnima day.You have really hit the mark this time.Please read and confirm that Kartik snana is also prescribed from the Aswin purnima date.This was the system introduced from the sidhanta period for the four 'lunar' cardinal points.This will be a great discovery for you in your calendar reform efforts.How nicely you are coming to the truth, accidentally! > > > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory.> > > > > > > > > <Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of fifteenth century AD?> > > > > > > > > You want to be vedic, no doubt, but inadvertantly copy pope Gregory mistaking it to be vedic.All your sayan interpretations of the purnas and the sidhantas are showing this.When Lagadh is saying (nirayan) 'sun in dhanistha' and lunar maagha sukla pratidpada are to be, as it were, coordinated with uttarayan, you want to think vedanga jyotish is sayan system like the Gregorain calendar. > > > > > > > > <Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has any scientific basis!> > > > > > > > > The rashi division of 30 degrees is man made and has been handy to control our adhimases and thus the lunar months.These are nirayan months being attached to the stars.Thus they are sidereal or steller. Since the sun, which really is fixed, is again rigidly fixed by this circle of stars, divided into 30 degrees each, they seem to be much more scientific than the months which alterntely take 30 and 31 days. The 12 equal angular artificial division of space is surely the most scientific way of looking at outer space, which approximates, with the 12 natural lunar months. > > > > > > > > <Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " .> > > > > The purely tropical method is prohibited by our tradition. It is Pope Gregory who has introduced the purely tropical system, because they have only solar months to think of. When you forget our coordinative nature of the tropical and the sidereal systems by the lunar tithis, and want to go purely tropcial in his footsteps, it does appear, quite an imitation of his system. > > > > Thank you and regards, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > < Perhaps your spelling is more acceptable. If my spelling is not correct, > > > > > then pardon me.> > > > > > > > > > > It is not a matter of spelling alone! Had you read any works of > > > > > Varahamihria actually yourself, you would not have been flogging a wrong > > > > > horse over such a long period! > > > > > > > > > > <I am trying to quote him in the chapter on Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the > > > > > opening verses themselves. If my translation is not exact then also I > > > > > request you to correct me.> > > > > > > > > > > Again the same confusion " perhaps " . Once you read Brihat Samhita fully and > > > > > compare the discussion of that Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti vis-a-vis the > > > > > Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti of the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika by > > > > > the same author, you will be able to understand as to how Varahamihra has > > > > > contradicted his own views himself about such phenomena. > > > > > > > > > > < But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > > > yours).> > > > > > > > > > > My dear friend, pl. do read some books on astronomy! Sun in Dhanishtha > > > > > nakshatra is an annual phenomenon and has been going on ever since the > > > > > nakshatras-vis- a-vis the solar movement was recognized! So what is nirayana > > > > > about it? Similarly, sun is always in one or the other nakshatra! Do you > > > > > mean to say that sun is as such always nirayana? Same is the case with the > > > > > Moon! That is also in one or the other nakshatra always! Do you mean to > > > > > say that the Moon is always nirayana? > > > > > > > > > > What a confusion! > > > > > > > > > > If there had been any rashis prevailing at the time of the VJ in India, the > > > > > solar movement would have been recorded vis-a-vis the rashis then during > > > > > that period also. > > > > > > > > > > <The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan since it > > > > > is effective to this day as our practice shows so.> > > > > > > > > > > Again another confusing statement! " Old uttarayana " was nirayana because > > > > > that was in some nakshtra! " New Uttarayana " also is nirayana because it is > > > > > in some rashi! Or do you mean to say that if it had been in some rashi > > > > > instead of nakshatra at the time of the VJ, it would not have been nirayana > > > > > then? > > > > > > > > > > Again, What is nirayana? " New Uttarayana " or makar Sankranti according to > > > > > you? If it is uttarayana, whether " new " or " old " , you are again talking > > > > > through your hat since Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that has been > > > > > going on from the dawn of creation and will continue till doomsday! It will > > > > > always fall in one or the other nakshatra! So to qualify it as nirayana or > > > > > sayana is to exhibit one's ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > If Makar Sankranti is nirayana according to you, that is just your > > > > > prerogative to consider it so! Rashis being imaginary divisions of > > > > > imaginary circles can be nirayana or sayana or co-ordinated or disjointed or > > > > > whatever, depending on the " state of mind " of the beholder. > > > > > > > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of > > > > > lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush > > > > > full moon.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many > > > > > times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon > > > > > that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar > > > > > uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar > > > > > Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, > > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! > > > > > If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the > > > > > Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day > > > > > as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If > > > > > you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, > > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and > > > > > magha start from the day of Uttarayana! > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to > > > > > the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the > > > > > Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla > > > > > Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima. > > > > > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > > > purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > > > > > Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma > > > > > shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it > > > > > would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. > > > > > Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to > > > > > dharmashatras! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > > > Gregory.> > > > > > > > > > > Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts > > > > > except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in > > > > > response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is > > > > > a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the > > > > > Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually > > > > > based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even > > > > > Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of > > > > > fifteenth century AD? > > > > > > > > > > Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called > > > > > sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has > > > > > any scientific basis! > > > > > > > > > > Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking > > > > > you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > > Namskar! Yes you are right. I mean him. Perhaps your spelling is more > > > > > acceptable.If my spelling is not corrrect, then pardon me. It is him who > > > > > wrote Brihad Samhita. I am trying to qouote him in the chapter on > > > > > Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the opening verses themsielves. If my translation > > > > > is not exact then also I request you to correct me. > > > > > > > > > > > But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > > > yours).The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan > > > > > since it is effective to this day as our practice shows so.This is the > > > > > classic makar sankranti as uttarayan,along with the shift of lunar uttrayan > > > > > from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.This > > > > > is also evidint by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > > > purnima.Please refer to dharma shastras. > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, we must now fix a new nirayan uttarayan which is close to the > > > > > present day tropical uttarayan which now falls not in the range of puoush > > > > > purnima but of mrigasira purnima. This would be in the footsteps of our past > > > > > reformations rather than succcumbing to the modern method of Pope Gregory, > > > > > whose culture is quite different from our culture, since they do not tie up > > > > > the sun and the moon with the help of adhimases and the stars too. Mind > > > > > you,I am not in favour of indefinite nityanness like many astorlogers. But > > > > > my view is that, the new nirayn sankranti should be close to the present > > > > > tropical sankranti so that although they are slightly different,but since > > > > > they both fall within the same fullmoon zone would give the correct seasons > > > > > to the tithis, which are the real basis of our celebrations. I feel that > > > > > those who advocate the sayan system or exactly season based as you say, are > > > > > not really aware of the importance of the nirayan tithis and their tie up > > > > > with the stars.Tying up the fullmoons with the stars and naming the months > > > > > as such seems to be older than Vedanga jyotish and is the very foundation of > > > > > our culture. > > > > > > > > > > > So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > > > Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > < What I know is Barahmihir says> > > > > > > > > > > > > Who is this chap " Barahamihr " who is your pet flogging horse? I have > > > > > never heard about him! Was he anyway related to Varahamihira, who is said to > > > > > have compiled " Panchasidhanitka " etc. books in about fifth century AD? > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I know is Barahmihir says the 'sun in dhanistha'position as the > > > > > start of uttarayan, was too old a concept then at his time and the > > > > > occurrence of uttarayan with the sun at makar sankranti was logical and > > > > > could be proved by checking practically. ' > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start of Uttarayan with sun at makar sankranti (beginning of makar > > > > > rashi) occurred around 285 AD, as accepted nowadays. One month shift of > > > > > uttarayan occurs in around 2150 years. Thus around 2150-285 = 1865 BC > > > > > becomes the year when uttarayan occurred at the end of makar rashi, 30 > > > > > degrees after the beginning of makar rashi. Before that time, uttarayan > > > > > occurred when the sun was in Kumbha rashi and not in makar rashi. Dakhinsysn > > > > > started when the sun was in Karkat rashi in 285 AD, which means in 1865 BC, > > > > > it started when the sun was in the end of Karkat rashi. Before that > > > > > dakhinayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi.Thus at around 32 century > > > > > BCE uttarayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi. This is the simple > > > > > mathematics I can explain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the fantastic assumtions, explanations and calculations > > > > > that dakhinayan occurred when the sun entered makar rashi in 32nd century > > > > > BCE, I leave to you, shri Bhattacharyaji to explain. So please go ahead and > > > > > explain whatever you have assumed, by challenging yourself. I will surely > > > > > read it. Do not challenge me to do such silly task. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________ > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Avinash Sathaye ji, Jai Shri Ram! < I was keeping quiet because I assumed that everyone will easily see the problem with the equation " makara samkranti=Uttarayan " .> As far as I can see, it is only some " tapasvis " or " tapasvinis " who are equating Makar Sankranti with Uttarayana as on date! Capricornus is actually the Greek equivalent of Capricorn astrological sign, with the only difference that the former is of an unequal dimension whereas the latter is supposed to be one of the twelve equal divisions. The sun enters the Capricornus constellation around January 21 these days, whereas nobody is sure as to when the sun " enters " the astrological sign " Capricorn " , since that imaginary division can start from any point in the ecliptic/zodiac and thus any day can be a so called nirayana Makar Sankranti! In case of so called sayana Makar Sankranti, it is a permanent fixture of Uttarayana, because Maya the mlechha has ordained thus in his Surya Siddhanta! <The word makara saMkranti refers to crossing the threshold of the Makara Rashi. It refers to a configuration of stars and being sufficiently distant from the earth, these stars do not match the annual motions.> I do not know what you mean by Makar Rashi since we do not have any " constellations " like Greek Aries etc. in Indian siddhantas or Puranas etc. No siddhanta or Purana has either talked of Makar Sankranti being in any way related to any star. The clubbing of Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras with Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis is also the feat of the Surya Siddhanta, which has made the confusion worst confounded! On the one hand, the Surya Siddhanta says that with the Makar Sankranti itself i.e. with the ingress of the sun into Makar Rashi, the six months of Uttarayana start, and also the day and nights are equal on Vernal Equinox which it calls as Mesha Sankrant, but in the same breath it clubs Ashvini, Bharni and a quarter of Krittika nakshatra with Mesha Rashi and so on! Then at a separate place the same Surya Siddhanta gives the polar longitudes of Junction Stars of those very Ashvini. Bharni etc. nakshtras which can never be accommodated in the twenty-seven equal nakshtra divisions of the same Surya Sidhanta either! Thus whichever way we look at it, Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis even as per the Surya Sidhanta cannot be actually either Sayana nor can they be affiliated to any constellation nor to any Junction star! And unfortunately for India, it is only those very useless Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis that are being used from everything---right from janmapatri to karmapatri like deciding the festivals and muhurtas and even the world famous Kumbha Melas! And nobody, including Dharmacharyas, is sure as to what he/she is talking about when he is talking of some Makar or Kumbha etc. Sankrantis! After all, no such division can be visualized in the skies! < The equation between the makara samkranti and uttarayan in old books was not meant to be an eternal truth, but a statement of an observed fact at the time of the construction of the book(s).> Since it is an open secret by now that Mesha, Vrisha etc. twelve equal rashi divisions are nothing but figments of imagination, it is a moot point as to whether Parashara Rishis or Krishna Dwaipayana Vedavyasa etc. Rishis would really have clubbed those imaginary rashi divisions with the solstices and equinoxes etc. and also Krittika, Rohini etc. twenty-eight nakshatra divisions, as adumbrated in the Vedas! If we try to prove that " the observed facts at the time of the construction of the books " was that Uttarayana did coincide with Makar Sankranti at that point of time and that is why the Puranas or the siddhantas clubbed one with the other, it means that all the Puranas are of about 285 AD, since as per Lahiriwalas, it was only then that the " two zodiacs coincided " whereas as per the Suya Siddhanta and Dr. B. V. Raman, such a phenomenon could have occurred in around 390 AD! Thus what it boils down to is that the inclusion of Mesha etc. rashis in the Puranas is a post Surya Siddhanta development. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul HinduCalendar , Avinash Sathaye sohum@ wrote: Re: [HinduCalendar] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet I was keeping quiet because I assumed that everyone will easily see the problem with the equation " makara samkranti=Uttarayan " . The word uttarayana (uttara+ayana) means going towards the north and it has to mean the start of the Sun's northerly (apparent) motion. It has to be variable from year to year due to various perturbations of the orbits. The word makara saMkranti refers to crossing the threshold of the Makara Rashi. It refers to a configuration of stars and being sufficiently distant from the earth, these stars do not match the annual motions. To me, calling makara samkranti as uttarayan for convenience sounds like calling the noon hour as day break for convenience (because one chooses to wake up then!) :-) The equation between the makara samkranti and uttarayan in old books was not meant to be an eternal truth, but a statement of an observed fact at the time of the construction of the book(s). Bhupendra Jamnadas wrote: Namaste Hari mala Ji, Â Could not avoid noticing this exchange between you and AK Kaul Ji. What you are suggesting here is that for convenience purpose only, the scriptures have indicate 1st day Makar Sanskranti to mark the beginning of Uttarayana. Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year, what additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also not going to be on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a separate date on the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sanskranti. If the scriptures are out convenience trying to bundle to 2 events in a single calender event, it seems very dubious and indicates scriptures that were doctored by people who somehow were trying to fit these events into their methematical model and were having trouble syncing their calculations with actual phenomena of the shortest day. Â Our scriptures are very elaborate, it does not make sense that just out of convenience, these 2 events are bundled into one for the sake simpler calender. There is something definitely wrong here. Â Regards, Bhupendra. -- -- With Best Regards, Avinash Sathaye Web: www.msc.uky.edu/sohum --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Bhupendra Jamnadasji, Jai Shri Ram! <Could not avoid noticing this exchange between you and AK Kaul Ji. > I am glad to note that the members are reading different views and instead of watching from the sidelines, commeting on the same! < Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year, what additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also not going to be on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a separate date on the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sanskranti.> The more I read about " Makar Sanrkanti " the more confusing it is to decide as to what is meant by the same! On the other hand, there is absolutely no confusion about Uttarayana! That is the shortest day of the year as per the Vedas, the VJ and also the Puranas as well as the siddhantas, besides, of course, geography textbooks! Sayana-walas, like all the Puranas and siddhantas say that Makar Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana, i.e. Winter Solstice. Though according to Western astrologers, known as Tropicalists, It is a sheer chance that Capricorn ingress gets clubbed with the Winter Solstice, since the latter does not have any religioius significance for them nor does it mean anything to them astrologically whereas " Capricornus (the original name of Caprirocrn) " is supposed to be ruled by Saturn and so on! On the other hand, since we do not find any mention of Makara, Kumbha etc. rashis in the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha, it means they were non-existent divisions during that period. The two ayanas and vishuvas i.e. the two solstices and also Equinoxes have been praised to skies by all the Puranas, without exception. Since the Puranas, on the basis of the Surya Sidhanta and Aryabhati etc., call Uttarayana as Makar Sankranti and Vishuva i.e. Vasanta Sampat as Mesha Sankranti and so on, it is the quality of the solstices and equinoxes that has got rubbed off to Makara and Mesha etc. sankrantis! Thus it can be safely said that (the so called Sayana) Makara, Mesha, Karka and Tula Rashis do not have mertis of their own but it is only by dint of their association with the two equinoxes and solstices that they are praised to skies. Now coming to so called nirayana Makar etc. Rashis, they have absolutely no grounds/legs to stand upon! How useless and confusing these nirayana sankrantis are will be evident from the fact that no jyotishi has any idea as to why he/she should celebrate Makar Sankranti on January 15 (Lahiriwalas), Jnuary 17 (Ramanawalas); January 18 (Raivata-pakshawalas) and so on, just to name a few of them! These are just a few ayanamshas since there are many more in the fray like Surya Sidhanta Makar Sanrkanti, Graha Laghava Makar Sankranti, Muladhara Makar Sankranti and so on! How all these dozens of Makar Sanrkantis are related to consteallations, can be anybody's guess! Coming to lunar months: The Vedic calendar is the simplest and the most beautiful as well as scientific one! When the New Moon was in Dhanishtha in about 1400 BCE, that was the start of a new five year cycle with Uttarayana as well as Tapah and Magha as per the Vedanga Jyotisha! The next lunar year started on a different date from that of the solar year, whereas Uttarayana was the day which was the shortest of the year throughout Vedic history! It was a lot easier in about 1400 BCE to determine the monthly positions by soli-lunar correlations, known as tithits, especially the New Moon and Full Moon. If, as such, sometimes some mantras appear to be emphasizing lunar positions more than the solar ones, that is because of the computational ease and not becasue the solar months had no significance for them! The VJ is quite unambiguous when it says that the days start increasing from Uttarayana and has given almost an accurate measure of the quantity of time by which it increases every day! It has also given different tithis of the start of the new year for all the five years in a five year yuga. It has also talked of krittika, Rohini etc. nakshatras without clubbing them with any so called sayana or nirayana rashi! Nakshatras have been given an independent position of their own, and a rough and ready method of determining their approximate mean duration has been propounded. As such, I think, it is best to start a solar year from the Vasanta Sampat, and a lunar Vasanti Navratra with the start of the Shukla Pratipat after Vasanta Ritu. It is immaterial if any jyotishi or region wants to club Vasant Sampat with any Rashi, whether Mesha or Vrishaba and so on, but the name of solar month will be Madhava and the lunar month that follows that will be Vaishakha, as usual. Thus the Chaitri Navratras will start about a month earlier to Vaishakha. Regarding nakshatras, since there is a lot of confusion as to which nakshatra starts from where, I think we must go by Junction stars, with each nakshatra ranging from the lunar conjunction with one Junction Star to another, and so on. And since Shri Darshaney Lokesh has done the same thing in his " aaarsha tithi patrak " , he is on the right track. However, members are welcome to make any suggestions which will definitely be taken into account. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul HinduCalendar , Bhupendra Jamnadas b_jamnadas@ wrote: > > Namaste Hari mala Ji, > > Could not avoid noticing this exchange between you and AK Kaul Ji. What you are suggesting here is that for convenience purpose only, the scriptures have indicate 1st day Makar Sanskranti to mark the beginning of Uttarayana. Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year, what additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also not going to be on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a separate date on the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sanskranti. If the scriptures are out convenience trying to bundle to 2 events in a single calender event, it seems very dubious and indicates scriptures that were doctored by people who somehow were trying to fit these events into their methematical model and were having trouble syncing their calculations with actual phenomena of the shortest day. > > Our scriptures are very elaborate, it does not make sense that just out of convenience, these 2 events are bundled into one for the sake simpler calender. There is something definitely wrong here. > > Regards, > Bhupendra. > > > > > ________________________________ > hari harimalla@ > HinduCalendar > Wed, December 16, 2009 1:48:30 AM > [HinduCalendar] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Â > Dear shri Kaulji, > Namskar! I again find your patience is exhausted. I will not trouble you much more. Nonetheless, I would like to request you to confirm one fact, so the truth is clarified. Between makar sankranti and uttarayana let us find which is the primary horse and which is the secondary cart.The question is what do the shastras say? Does uttrayan start from makar sankranti or does makar sankranti start from uttarayan? If the first part is true then makar sankranti is nirayan, if the second part is true then makar sankranti is sayan.Kindly confirm from the sidhantas and puranas which is true, whether it is uttarayan which starts from makar sankranti or makar sankranti starts from uttarayan. > With this test your confusion will surely vanish. Thank you for your last patience.My point is uttarayan starts from makar sakranti,(refer: The six months of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat sankranti-SS) which means that makar sankranti is the land mark for the start of uttaryan, only for convenience of daily use, although it may not be exactly true over a long time. This surely proves that makar sankranti does not start from uttarayan.Kindly check it from the shastras.Thank you. > Regards, > Hari Malla > > HinduCalendar, " Krishen " jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > Shri Hari Mallaji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > On reading your post, I regret my decision of allowing the same on this forum, since all you are interested in is propagating a calendar which you have a mandate to do, instead of going as per any dharma shastra or purana or sidhanta! If anyone points out those anachronisms to you, he is " blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas " according to you. > > Jai Shri Ram! > > A K Kaul > > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > Namaskar!In continuation of my last mail, I add the following comments. > > > My previous statement: > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.> > > > Your comment in reply: > > > <It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > > You are blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas.The puranas and sidhantas do not call uttarayan as makar sankranti, but celebrate uttarayan by makar sankranti by equating one with the other.This equation is the vedic way of coordinating the tropical and sidereal concepts. > > > Uttarayan is a geographical event which occurs on the shortest day but is celebrated on the day near it. The celebration is done on the first day of the solar and the lunar months like maagha sukla pratipada or makar sankranti which is the first day of the solar maagha. Since these months are attached to the rashis and nakshyatras, which are thus nirayan or not moving with the seasons,the days of celebrations do not fall on the actual uttarayan date which is tropical or seasonal. Solar uttarayan, known as uttaryan sankranti in dharma shastras, is the first day of the solar month of maagha. Lunar uttarayan tithi falls on the first day of the lunar month of maagha.At present the lunar uttarayan is celebrated on poush purnima, which is one day previous to the lunar purnimanta month of maagha (maagha krishna pratipada). We thus celebrate uttaryan not on the actual uttarayan date which may fall on any date, but only on the first day of solar and\or lunar > month. This is the basis given by all the sidhantas and puranas. This is certainly so, only if you do not misinterpret these dates to be tropical uttarayan date. This is also confirmed by the practice itself.Please read Dharma sindhu, which talk of both the solar and the lunar seasons. > > > Our shastras prohibit us, not to celebrate on the actual uttarayan date.The reason given for this is that the uttarayan date being related to the earth axis is tilted further away from the lunar pole than the eliptic pole. The lunar pole and the ecliptic pole are closer being separated by only 5 degrees. This has been explained by a story which says Brahmaji (dhruva bindu) is not to be worshipped because he pretended or lied, to have touched the top of the lunar pole, known as jyotir linga of lord Shiva. This means that dhurva bindu is not the highest point, but the lunar pole or ecliptic pole near it, is higher. > > > > > > <Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and magha start from the day of Uttarayana!> > > > > > > Sorry to differ form your interpretation of VJ. VJ says that uttarayan occurs when the sun is in dhanistha, or when it is maagha(or tapa) sukla pratipada.Thus uttarayn date is not the start of tapa sukla pratipada but tapa sukla pratipada is the representative day of uttarayan (ie.is assumed to be uttrayan for the civil celebrations) . Tapa sukla pratipada touches uttarayan date while it fluctuates back and forth during the fluctuation caused by the adhimases. The lunar uttarayan date, tapa sukla pratipada touches both the solar uttarayan date of 'sun in dhanistha' and the actual uttarayan. > > > > > > <Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima.> > > > > > > You have also gone out of tract here.Please learn to give up the idea of purnima succeeding or preceding uttarayan.'Utttarya n purnima' is that purnima which goes both before and after uttarayan.Also tapa sukla pratipada or 'uttarayan pratipada' is the pratipada which goes both before and after uttarayan.This will be clear if you analyse the flucatuation of the uttarayan tithi in the various eras both vedanga and sidhanta.During vedanga jyotish, maagha sukla pratipada went both before and after uttarayan, thus it was the uttarayan pratipada or tithi. In sidhanta period poush purnima 15 days before maagha sukla pratipada, went both before and after uttarayan.Thus this was the uttarayan tithi and maagha snana was celebrated on this date. These will be clear if you study the scientific basis of calendar reform given by a drawing in the prvasudhar forum. Unless you learn to study this drawing you will be in confusion for a long time more.SO kindly study > this drawing.The drawings are many times more helpful than the words to understand facts. > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > <Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to dharmashatras! > > > > > > > Shall I say ignorance is bliss! Please read Dharma sindhu and confirm that it is indeed so.Vaisakh snana is prescribed from the Chaitra purnima day.You have really hit the mark this time.Please read and confirm that Kartik snana is also prescribed from the Aswin purnima date.This was the system introduced from the sidhanta period for the four 'lunar' cardinal points.This will be a great discovery for you in your calendar reform efforts.How nicely you are coming to the truth, accidentally! > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory.> > > > > > > <Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of fifteenth century AD?> > > > > > > You want to be vedic, no doubt, but inadvertantly copy pope Gregory mistaking it to be vedic.All your sayan interpretations of the purnas and the sidhantas are showing this.When Lagadh is saying (nirayan) 'sun in dhanistha' and lunar maagha sukla pratidpada are to be, as it were, coordinated with uttarayan, you want to think vedanga jyotish is sayan system like the Gregorain calendar. > > > > > > <Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has any scientific basis!> > > > > > > The rashi division of 30 degrees is man made and has been handy to control our adhimases and thus the lunar months.These are nirayan months being attached to the stars.Thus they are sidereal or steller. Since the sun, which really is fixed, is again rigidly fixed by this circle of stars, divided into 30 degrees each, they seem to be much more scientific than the months which alterntely take 30 and 31 days. The 12 equal angular artificial division of space is surely the most scientific way of looking at outer space, which approximates, with the 12 natural lunar months. > > > > > > <Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " .> > > > The purely tropical method is prohibited by our tradition. It is Pope Gregory who has introduced the purely tropical system, because they have only solar months to think of. When you forget our coordinative nature of the tropical and the sidereal systems by the lunar tithis, and want to go purely tropcial in his footsteps, it does appear, quite an imitation of his system. > > > Thank you and regards, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > < Perhaps your spelling is more acceptable. If my spelling is not correct, > > > > then pardon me.> > > > > > > > > It is not a matter of spelling alone! Had you read any works of > > > > Varahamihria actually yourself, you would not have been flogging a wrong > > > > horse over such a long period! > > > > > > > > <I am trying to quote him in the chapter on Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the > > > > opening verses themselves. If my translation is not exact then also I > > > > request you to correct me.> > > > > > > > > Again the same confusion " perhaps " . Once you read Brihat Samhita fully and > > > > compare the discussion of that Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti vis-a-vis the > > > > Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti of the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika by > > > > the same author, you will be able to understand as to how Varahamihra has > > > > contradicted his own views himself about such phenomena. > > > > > > > > < But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > > yours).> > > > > > > > > My dear friend, pl. do read some books on astronomy! Sun in Dhanishtha > > > > nakshatra is an annual phenomenon and has been going on ever since the > > > > nakshatras-vis- a-vis the solar movement was recognized! So what is nirayana > > > > about it? Similarly, sun is always in one or the other nakshatra! Do you > > > > mean to say that sun is as such always nirayana? Same is the case with the > > > > Moon! That is also in one or the other nakshatra always! Do you mean to > > > > say that the Moon is always nirayana? > > > > > > > > What a confusion! > > > > > > > > If there had been any rashis prevailing at the time of the VJ in India, the > > > > solar movement would have been recorded vis-a-vis the rashis then during > > > > that period also. > > > > > > > > <The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan since it > > > > is effective to this day as our practice shows so.> > > > > > > > > Again another confusing statement! " Old uttarayana " was nirayana because > > > > that was in some nakshtra! " New Uttarayana " also is nirayana because it is > > > > in some rashi! Or do you mean to say that if it had been in some rashi > > > > instead of nakshatra at the time of the VJ, it would not have been nirayana > > > > then? > > > > > > > > Again, What is nirayana? " New Uttarayana " or makar Sankranti according to > > > > you? If it is uttarayana, whether " new " or " old " , you are again talking > > > > through your hat since Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that has been > > > > going on from the dawn of creation and will continue till doomsday! It will > > > > always fall in one or the other nakshatra! So to qualify it as nirayana or > > > > sayana is to exhibit one's ignorance. > > > > > > > > If Makar Sankranti is nirayana according to you, that is just your > > > > prerogative to consider it so! Rashis being imaginary divisions of > > > > imaginary circles can be nirayana or sayana or co-ordinated or disjointed or > > > > whatever, depending on the " state of mind " of the beholder. > > > > > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of > > > > lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush > > > > full moon.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many > > > > times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon > > > > that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar > > > > uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar > > > > Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! > > > > If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the > > > > Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day > > > > as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If > > > > you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and > > > > magha start from the day of Uttarayana! > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to > > > > the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the > > > > Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla > > > > Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima. > > > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > > purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > > > Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma > > > > shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it > > > > would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. > > > > Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to > > > > dharmashatras! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > > Gregory.> > > > > > > > > Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts > > > > except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in > > > > response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is > > > > a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the > > > > Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually > > > > based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even > > > > Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of > > > > fifteenth century AD? > > > > > > > > Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called > > > > sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has > > > > any scientific basis! > > > > > > > > Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking > > > > you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " . > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > Namskar! Yes you are right. I mean him. Perhaps your spelling is more > > > > acceptable.If my spelling is not corrrect, then pardon me. It is him who > > > > wrote Brihad Samhita. I am trying to qouote him in the chapter on > > > > Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the opening verses themsielves. If my translation > > > > is not exact then also I request you to correct me. > > > > > > > > > But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > > yours).The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan > > > > since it is effective to this day as our practice shows so.This is the > > > > classic makar sankranti as uttarayan,along with the shift of lunar uttrayan > > > > from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.This > > > > is also evidint by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > > purnima.Please refer to dharma shastras. > > > > > > > > > Similarly, we must now fix a new nirayan uttarayan which is close to the > > > > present day tropical uttarayan which now falls not in the range of puoush > > > > purnima but of mrigasira purnima. This would be in the footsteps of our past > > > > reformations rather than succcumbing to the modern method of Pope Gregory, > > > > whose culture is quite different from our culture, since they do not tie up > > > > the sun and the moon with the help of adhimases and the stars too. Mind > > > > you,I am not in favour of indefinite nityanness like many astorlogers. But > > > > my view is that, the new nirayn sankranti should be close to the present > > > > tropical sankranti so that although they are slightly different,but since > > > > they both fall within the same fullmoon zone would give the correct seasons > > > > to the tithis, which are the real basis of our celebrations. I feel that > > > > those who advocate the sayan system or exactly season based as you say, are > > > > not really aware of the importance of the nirayan tithis and their tie up > > > > with the stars.Tying up the fullmoons with the stars and naming the months > > > > as such seems to be older than Vedanga jyotish and is the very foundation of > > > > our culture. > > > > > > > > > So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > > Gregory. > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > < What I know is Barahmihir says> > > > > > > > > > > Who is this chap " Barahamihr " who is your pet flogging horse? I have > > > > never heard about him! Was he anyway related to Varahamihira, who is said to > > > > have compiled " Panchasidhanitka " etc. books in about fifth century AD? > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji, > > > > > > > > > > > What I know is Barahmihir says the 'sun in dhanistha'position as the > > > > start of uttarayan, was too old a concept then at his time and the > > > > occurrence of uttarayan with the sun at makar sankranti was logical and > > > > could be proved by checking practically. ' > > > > > > > > > > > Start of Uttarayan with sun at makar sankranti (beginning of makar > > > > rashi) occurred around 285 AD, as accepted nowadays. One month shift of > > > > uttarayan occurs in around 2150 years. Thus around 2150-285 = 1865 BC > > > > becomes the year when uttarayan occurred at the end of makar rashi, 30 > > > > degrees after the beginning of makar rashi. Before that time, uttarayan > > > > occurred when the sun was in Kumbha rashi and not in makar rashi. Dakhinsysn > > > > started when the sun was in Karkat rashi in 285 AD, which means in 1865 BC, > > > > it started when the sun was in the end of Karkat rashi. Before that > > > > dakhinayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi.Thus at around 32 century > > > > BCE uttarayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi. This is the simple > > > > mathematics I can explain. > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the fantastic assumtions, explanations and calculations > > > > that dakhinayan occurred when the sun entered makar rashi in 32nd century > > > > BCE, I leave to you, shri Bhattacharyaji to explain. So please go ahead and > > > > explain whatever you have assumed, by challenging yourself. I will surely > > > > read it. Do not challenge me to do such silly task. > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla wrote: Dear shri Kaulji, <No siddhanta or Purana has talked of any Purnrima to be linked to Makar Sankranti!> Please refer to dharma shastras to confirm that Makar sankranti and Poush purnima are linked baecause maagha snana can be started with either of them-solar date is from makar sankranti and lunar date is from Poush purnima. You also well know that Maagha sukla pratipada is linked to the sun in Dhanistha, since Vedanga jyotish says they occur together with utttaryan as well. Regards, Hari Malla HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > <If Poush purnima,the related uttarayan tithi of makar sankranti, still > touched both makar sankranti and the actual uttaryan even now, there ws > no problem in continuing with makar sankranti as uttarayan even now> > > No siddhanta or Purana has talked of any Purnrima to be linked to Makar > Sankranti! As per all the Puranas and siddhantas, Makar Sankranti > itself is the shortest day of the year, which is, as such, another name > of Uttarayana Day! > > No sidhhantakara or Pauranic rishis found any problem in clubbing Makar > Sankranti with the Winter Solstice. That practice had been going on > till about sixteenth century. Why do you find any problems now? If you > have to follow by the sidhhantas and puranas, you have to adhere to > their dictum and not invent your own criteria! > > Jai Shri Ram! > > A K Kaul > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > Namaskar! > > <why do you want to correlate it to some imaginary division known as > Makar Sankranti and then simultaneosuly tell us in the same breath that > no, Uttarayana is not taking place simultaneously with Makar Sankranti > these days?> > > Fristly we have to understand why the Sidhanta authors were justified > in taking Makar sankranti as uttarayan, to continue the Vedic system of > Calendar, in their times. Then we have to see if we still can use makar > sanrkanti as utttarayan for our present purpose.If Poush purnima,the > related uttarayan tithi of makar sankranti, still touched both makar > sankranti and the actual uttaryan even now, there ws no problem in > continuing with makar sankranti as uttarayan even now. But since we know > that Poush purnima does not touch both Makar sankranti and actual > uttarayan during its fluctuation from solar poush 15 to solar maagha 15, > we have to think of reformation, like the Sidhanta kars who could no > more proceed with 'sun in dhanistha' as uttarayan since maagha sukla > pratipada, the uttarayan tithi of vedanga jyotish connected with sun in > Dhanistha, no more touched the actual uttarayan after 285 AD. Then it > was time to shift both the solar and the lunar uttarayan, which the > Sidhantakars did do. > > Now-a-days, since Mrigasira purnima touches the actual uttarayan,we > should treat this purnima as the new uttarayan tithi.Since the present > Dhanu sankranti is at the middle of the fluctuation zone of mrigasira > purnima, Dhanu sankranti becomes the new uttarayan sankranti instead of > the preent makar sankranti. > > Now this will entail the changing the name of both uttaryan sankranti > and purnima from that which is mentioned in the present day Dharma > shastras.According to Balaganga dhar Tilak this is OK to maintain the > nirayanness of astronomy. But SB Dixit says that changing of the > wordings of Dharma shastras is ill advised.Thus to satisfy him as > well,we may call the present Dhanu sankranti as the new epochal Makar > sankranti so that the wordings of Dharma shatras remains the same. > > If any more doubt remains please do not hesitate to put further > questions. > > Thank you and regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > Let me admit that you are moving in the proper direction when you > are at least accepting the relationship of uttarayan with the stars as > mentioned in the following (uttarayan at mula and purnavsu). Clubbing it > like this is also welcome.This is the nirayan clubbing which is very > necessary for our calendar to be vedic. > > > > > > <The Uttarayana is these days taking place around the midpoint of > Lambda > > > Scorpii and Delta Sagitarii (Mula and Purvashadha) stars. Why don't > you > > > club it with those two nakshatras/junction stars and why do you want > to > > > correlate it to some imaginary division known as Makar Sankranti and > > > then simultaneosuly tell us in the same breath that no, Uttarayana > is > > > not taking place simultaneously with Makar Sankranti these days?> > > > > > > If you hate the rashis, you can proceed it like this too.This is > also welcome.If you are more liberal to the rashis you can include the > rashis too.For me wether the rashis or the nakshytras or teh both they > are all the same, both being the same circle of stars. > > > Thank you for the positive steps. > > > Regards, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > < But the stars like dhanistha or makar sankranti are fixed > points, > > > > which can be seen by the naked eyes.> > > > > > > > > You are absolutely wrong! Dhanishtha is a star known as Beta/Alpha > > > > Delphini which has a present longitude of about 317 degrees from > Mean > > > > Equator and Equinox of date whereas Makar Sankranti is the ingress > of > > > > the sun into an imaginary point which nobody, including you, knows > as to > > > > what the longitude of that point is! > > > > > > > > Which Sankranti can you see with " naked eyes " ? Till date I had > heard > > > > " Tapasvisnis " seeing Makar Samkranti through their tapasya and > some > > > > parokshya-walas seeing it through their parokshya- knowledge but > you > > > > must really be a superhuman being surpassing all the rest of such > beings > > > > since you can see even imaginary Makar Samkranti points with naked > eyes > > > > without any tapasya or parokshya knowledge either! > > > > > > > > Why are you putting your ignorance on public display with such > nonsense > > > > statements? > > > > > > > > No wonder, it is because of people like you who can see " makar > > > > sankrantis with naked eyes " that we have never been able to > streamline > > > > the Hindu calendar over the last several centuries! > > > > > > > > <So it was convenient to fix the sun in dhanistha position, as > uttarayan > > > > for convenience of observation during Vedanga jyotish days.It was > also > > > > convenient to fix makar sankranti as uttarayan during the early > century > > > > of Vikram Sambat.> > > > > > > > > The Uttarayana is these days taking place around the midpoint of > Lambda > > > > Scorpii and Delta Sagitarii (Mula and Purvashadha) stars. Why > don't you > > > > club it with those two nakshatras/junction stars and why do you > want to > > > > correlate it to some imaginary division known as Makar Sankranti > and > > > > then simultaneosuly tell us in the same breath that no, Uttarayana > is > > > > not taking place simultaneously with Makar Sankranti these days? > > > > > > > > <It was also costumary to fix separate uttarayan dates by lunar > > > > tithi.During Vedanga jyotish they fixed Maagha sukla pratipada to > > > > represent uttarayan> > > > > > > > > Yet another fantastic statement! The VJ has never said that > Uttarayana > > > > fell every year on the same lunar tithi! Obviously, you have not > read > > > > even the VJ fully but are still pontificating on the same! > > > > > > > > <I do agree with you.Only for people who did not understand like > shri > > > > Kaulji I used the word convenience, so he may understand some > aspect at > > > > least.> > > > > > > > > Again the same blah, blah, blah! what is convenient or > inconvenient > > > > about celebrating uttarayana, a geographical phenomenon? It takes > > > > place every year these days around December 21/22. Anybody can see > that > > > > date and time from the internet these days. Why do you want to > club it > > > > with any lunar tithi or any imaginary sankranti etc. at all? Let > > > > anybody celebrate any Sankranti on any day he or she likes to! Why > > > > should you thrust your pet calendar down the throat of every > Hindu, just > > > > because you are mandated to do so? > > > > > > > > The VJ has never advised you to celebrate any so called Makar or > Kumbha > > > > etc. Sankrantis. All it has advised you to do is to celebrate the > two > > > > ayanas and vishuvas, apart from madhu, Madhava etc. months, to > which are > > > > pegged the lunar months viz. Chaitra, Vaishakha etc. etc. > > > > > > > > It is the siddhntas that talk of Makar and Kumbha etc. samkrantis. > And > > > > they are so called sayana. Same is the case with the Puranas. > Pauranic > > > > Sankrantis also are sayana. As such, if you have to advocate any > > > > Sankranti on the shoulders of the siddhantas or Puranas, it has to > be so > > > > called sayana and nothing else. > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhupendra Jamnadasji, > > > > > > > > > > Thank you fo your interest in the issue.You know uttarayan is a > > > > changing point every year with respect to the stars. But the stars > like > > > > dhanistha or makar sankranti are fixed points, which can be seen > by the > > > > naked eyes. So it was convenient to fix the sun in dhanistha > position, > > > > as uttarayan for convenience of observation during Vedanga jyotish > > > > days.It was also convenient to fix makar sankranti as uttarayan > during > > > > the early century of Vikram Sambat.Once it was fixed, these points > > > > remained as nirayan uttarayan for a very long time say one > thousand to > > > > two thousand years.In fact it wsa a necessary convenience. > > > > > It was also costumary to fix separate uttarayan dates by lunar > > > > tithi.During Vedanga jyotish they fixed Maagha sukla pratipada to > > > > represent uttarayan. And during sidhant period they fixed Poush > purnima > > > > as the lunar uttarayan.These lunar dates fluctuated over a month > due to > > > > adhimas. Thus as these tithis fluctuated over a region, which > contained > > > > the actual uttarayan they did not find it necessary to shift the > nirayn > > > > uttarayan with the sun fixed at certain star, frequently.Thus you > are > > > > quite right when you say that they were quite elaborate and did > not do > > > > so only for conveneience.I fully agree with you. But the method > they > > > > followed were not only convenient but also elaboraate and exactly > > > > meaningful. I do agree with you.Only for people who did not > understand > > > > like shri Kaulji I used the word convenience, so he may understand > some > > > > aspect at least. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > - In HinduCalendar , Bhupendra Jamnadas > b_jamnadas@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Hari mala Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > Could not avoid noticing this exchange between you and AK Kaul > Ji. > > > > What you are suggesting here is that for convenience purpose only, > the > > > > scriptures have indicate 1st day Makar Sanskranti to mark the > beginning > > > > of Uttarayana. Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same > lunar > > > > date year after year, what additional convenience is to be gained > by > > > > taking Makar Sankranti to indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since > > > > Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also not going to be on the same > lunar > > > > data year after year, might as well mark a separate date on the > lunar > > > > calender for uttarayan just like makar sanskranti. If the > scriptures are > > > > out convenience trying to bundle to 2 events in a single calender > event, > > > > it seems very dubious and indicates scriptures that were doctored > by > > > > people who somehow were trying to fit these events into their > > > > methematical model and were having trouble syncing their > calculations > > > > with actual phenomena of the shortest day. > > > > > > > > > > > > Our scriptures are very elaborate, it does not make sense that > just > > > > out of convenience, these 2 events are bundled into one for the > sake > > > > simpler calender. There is something definitely wrong here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Bhupendra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > hari harimalla@ > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > Wed, December 16, 2009 1:48:30 AM > > > > > > [HinduCalendar] Re: The Views of Patrizia > Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > > > Namskar! I again find your patience is exhausted. I will not > trouble > > > > you much more. Nonetheless, I would like to request you to confirm > one > > > > fact, so the truth is clarified. Between makar sankranti and > uttarayana > > > > let us find which is the primary horse and which is the secondary > > > > cart.The question is what do the shastras say? Does uttrayan start > from > > > > makar sankranti or does makar sankranti start from uttarayan? If > the > > > > first part is true then makar sankranti is nirayan, if the second > part > > > > is true then makar sankranti is sayan.Kindly confirm from the > sidhantas > > > > and puranas which is true, whether it is uttarayan which starts > from > > > > makar sankranti or makar sankranti starts from uttarayan. > > > > > > With this test your confusion will surely vanish. Thank you > for your > > > > last patience.My point is uttarayan starts from makar > sakranti,(refer: > > > > The six months of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat > > > > sankranti-SS) which means that makar sankranti is the land mark > for the > > > > start of uttaryan, only for convenience of daily use, although it > may > > > > not be exactly true over a long time. This surely proves that > makar > > > > sankranti does not start from uttarayan.Kindly check it from the > > > > shastras.Thank you. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Krishen " <jyotirved@ > ..> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Mallaji, > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > On reading your post, I regret my decision of allowing the > same on > > > > this forum, since all you are interested in is propagating a > calendar > > > > which you have a mandate to do, instead of going as per any dharma > > > > shastra or purana or sidhanta! If anyone points out those > anachronisms > > > > to you, he is " blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the > sidhantas " > > > > according to you. > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > Namaskar!In continuation of my last mail, I add the > following > > > > comments. > > > > > > > > My previous statement: > > > > > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along > with > > > > the shift of lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of > Vedanga > > > > jyotish to Poush full moon.> > > > > > > > > Your comment in reply: > > > > > > > > <It is impossible to make either head or tail of your > > > > statements! How many times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana > is a > > > > geographical phenomenon that is to be celebrated on the shortest > day of > > > > the year? There is no lunar uttarayana! It is up to you whether > you call > > > > the Uttarayana day makar Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha > > > > Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, though all the sidhantas and > Puranas > > > > call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! If you do not want to > believe in > > > > the Puranas or sidhantas, including the Surya Sidhanta of > Varahamihra, I > > > > cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the > > > > sidhantas.The puranas and sidhantas do not call uttarayan as makar > > > > sankranti, but celebrate uttarayan by makar sankranti by equating > one > > > > with the other.This equation is the vedic way of coordinating the > > > > tropical and sidereal concepts. > > > > > > > > Uttarayan is a geographical event which occurs on the > shortest > > > > day but is celebrated on the day near it. The celebration is done > on the > > > > first day of the solar and the lunar months like maagha sukla > pratipada > > > > or makar sankranti which is the first day of the solar maagha. > Since > > > > these months are attached to the rashis and nakshyatras, which are > thus > > > > nirayan or not moving with the seasons,the days of celebrations do > not > > > > fall on the actual uttarayan date which is tropical or seasonal. > Solar > > > > uttarayan, known as uttaryan sankranti in dharma shastras, is the > first > > > > day of the solar month of maagha. Lunar uttarayan tithi falls on > the > > > > first day of the lunar month of maagha.At present the lunar > uttarayan is > > > > celebrated on poush purnima, which is one day previous to the > lunar > > > > purnimanta month of maagha (maagha krishna pratipada). We thus > celebrate > > > > uttaryan not on the actual uttarayan date which may fall on any > date, > > > > but only on the first day of solar and\or lunar > > > > > > month. This is the basis given by all the sidhantas and > puranas. > > > > This is certainly so, only if you do not misinterpret these dates > to be > > > > tropical uttarayan date. This is also confirmed by the practice > > > > itself.Please read Dharma sindhu, which talk of both the solar and > the > > > > lunar seasons. > > > > > > > > Our shastras prohibit us, not to celebrate on the actual > > > > uttarayan date.The reason given for this is that the uttarayan > date > > > > being related to the earth axis is tilted further away from the > lunar > > > > pole than the eliptic pole. The lunar pole and the ecliptic pole > are > > > > closer being separated by only 5 degrees. This has been explained > by a > > > > story which says Brahmaji (dhruva bindu) is not to be worshipped > because > > > > he pretended or lied, to have touched the top of the lunar pole, > known > > > > as jyotir linga of lord Shiva. This means that dhurva bindu is not > the > > > > highest point, but the lunar pole or ecliptic pole near it, is > higher. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call > the > > > > Uttarayana Day as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as > > > > desired by the VJ. If you want to call that by some other name, I > cannot > > > > compel you not to do so, though all the sidhantas and Puranas say > that > > > > the month of solar Tapah and magha start from the day of > Uttarayana!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to differ form your interpretation of VJ. VJ says > that > > > > uttarayan occurs when the sun is in dhanistha, or when it is > maagha(or > > > > tapa) sukla pratipada.Thus uttarayn date is not the start of tapa > sukla > > > > pratipada but tapa sukla pratipada is the representative day of > > > > uttarayan (ie.is assumed to be uttrayan for the civil > celebrations) . > > > > Tapa sukla pratipada touches uttarayan date while it fluctuates > back and > > > > forth during the fluctuation caused by the adhimases. The lunar > > > > uttarayan date, tapa sukla pratipada touches both the solar > uttarayan > > > > date of 'sun in dhanistha' and the actual uttarayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you > would > > > > like to give to the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter > Solstice, > > > > though all the Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima > as > > > > Pausha Shukla Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla > Purnima.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have also gone out of tract here.Please learn to give > up the > > > > idea of purnima succeeding or preceding uttarayan.'Utttarya n > purnima' > > > > is that purnima which goes both before and after uttarayan.Also > tapa > > > > sukla pratipada or 'uttarayan pratipada' is the pratipada which > goes > > > > both before and after uttarayan.This will be clear if you analyse > the > > > > flucatuation of the uttarayan tithi in the various eras both > vedanga and > > > > sidhanta.During vedanga jyotish, maagha sukla pratipada went both > before > > > > and after uttarayan, thus it was the uttarayan pratipada or tithi. > In > > > > sidhanta period poush purnima 15 days before maagha sukla > pratipada, > > > > went both before and after uttarayan.Thus this was the uttarayan > tithi > > > > and maagha snana was celebrated on this date. These will be clear > if you > > > > study the scientific basis of calendar reform given by a drawing > in the > > > > prvasudhar forum. Unless you learn to study this drawing you will > be in > > > > confusion for a long time more.SO kindly study > > > > > > this drawing.The drawings are many times more helpful than the > words > > > > to understand facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still > > > > celebrating on Poush purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How > can > > > > any dharma shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha > Purnima > > > > since then it would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on > Chaitra > > > > Purnima and so on. Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt > > > > ascribing such ignorance to dharmashatras! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shall I say ignorance is bliss! Please read Dharma sindhu > and > > > > confirm that it is indeed so.Vaisakh snana is prescribed from the > > > > Chaitra purnima day.You have really hit the mark this time.Please > read > > > > and confirm that Kartik snana is also prescribed from the Aswin > purnima > > > > date.This was the system introduced from the sidhanta period for > the > > > > four 'lunar' cardinal points.This will be a great discovery for > you in > > > > your calendar reform efforts.How nicely you are coming to the > truth, > > > > accidentally! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to > spoil > > > > our pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect > by Pope > > > > Gregory.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do > not > > > > read any posts except your own! I have demonstrated it already in > a > > > > different post in response to a gentleman's insinuation that > " Winter > > > > Solstice " (uttarayana) is a Christian festival thrust on the > Hindus by > > > > Christians, that even the Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of > > > > Gregorian calendar is actually based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of > Lagadha! > > > > Or do you mean to say that even Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth > century BCE > > > > was influenced by Pope Gregory of fifteenth century AD?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to be vedic, no doubt, but inadvertantly copy > pope > > > > Gregory mistaking it to be vedic.All your sayan interpretations of > the > > > > purnas and the sidhantas are showing this.When Lagadh is saying > > > > (nirayan) 'sun in dhanistha' and lunar maagha sukla pratidpada are > to > > > > be, as it were, coordinated with uttarayan, you want to think > vedanga > > > > jyotish is sayan system like the Gregorain calendar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi > division, > > > > whether so called sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, > which > > > > you call shastriac, has any scientific basis!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashi division of 30 degrees is man made and has been > handy > > > > to control our adhimases and thus the lunar months.These are > nirayan > > > > months being attached to the stars.Thus they are sidereal or > steller. > > > > Since the sun, which really is fixed, is again rigidly fixed by > this > > > > circle of stars, divided into 30 degrees each, they seem to be > much more > > > > scientific than the months which alterntely take 30 and 31 days. > The 12 > > > > equal angular artificial division of space is surely the most > scientific > > > > way of looking at outer space, which approximates, with the 12 > natural > > > > lunar months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as > to > > > > how I am asking you " to go by the concept brought into effect by > Pope > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > > The purely tropical method is prohibited by our tradition. > It is > > > > Pope Gregory who has introduced the purely tropical system, > because they > > > > have only solar months to think of. When you forget our > coordinative > > > > nature of the tropical and the sidereal systems by the lunar > tithis, and > > > > want to go purely tropcial in his footsteps, it does appear, quite > an > > > > imitation of his system. > > > > > > > > Thank you and regards, > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " jyotirved " > <jyotirved@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < Perhaps your spelling is more acceptable. If my > spelling is > > > > not correct, > > > > > > > > > then pardon me.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not a matter of spelling alone! Had you read any > works > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Varahamihria actually yourself, you would not have been > > > > flogging a wrong > > > > > > > > > horse over such a long period! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I am trying to quote him in the chapter on > Adityacharadhyaya, > > > > perhaps the > > > > > > > > > opening verses themselves. If my translation is not > exact then > > > > also I > > > > > > > > > request you to correct me.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again the same confusion " perhaps " . Once you read Brihat > > > > Samhita fully and > > > > > > > > > compare the discussion of that Uttarayana-cum- Makar > Sankranti > > > > vis-a-vis the > > > > > > > > > Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti of the Surya Sidhanta of > > > > Panchasidhantika by > > > > > > > > > the same author, you will be able to understand as to > how > > > > Varahamihra has > > > > > > > > > contradicted his own views himself about such phenomena. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, > clarifies > > > > that Vedanga > > > > > > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as > the > > > > uttrayan for a > > > > > > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha > mihira > > > > (spelling is > > > > > > > > > yours).> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My dear friend, pl. do read some books on astronomy! Sun > in > > > > Dhanishtha > > > > > > > > > nakshatra is an annual phenomenon and has been going on > ever > > > > since the > > > > > > > > > nakshatras-vis- a-vis the solar movement was recognized! > So > > > > what is nirayana > > > > > > > > > about it? Similarly, sun is always in one or the other > > > > nakshatra! Do you > > > > > > > > > mean to say that sun is as such always nirayana? Same is > the > > > > case with the > > > > > > > > > Moon! That is also in one or the other nakshatra always! > Do > > > > you mean to > > > > > > > > > say that the Moon is always nirayana? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a confusion! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there had been any rashis prevailing at the time of > the VJ > > > > in India, the > > > > > > > > > solar movement would have been recorded vis-a-vis the > rashis > > > > then during > > > > > > > > > that period also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was > also > > > > nirayan since it > > > > > > > > > is effective to this day as our practice shows so.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again another confusing statement! " Old uttarayana " was > > > > nirayana because > > > > > > > > > that was in some nakshtra! " New Uttarayana " also is > nirayana > > > > because it is > > > > > > > > > in some rashi! Or do you mean to say that if it had been > in > > > > some rashi > > > > > > > > > instead of nakshatra at the time of the VJ, it would not > have > > > > been nirayana > > > > > > > > > then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, What is nirayana? " New Uttarayana " or makar > Sankranti > > > > according to > > > > > > > > > you? If it is uttarayana, whether " new " or " old " , you > are > > > > again talking > > > > > > > > > through your hat since Uttarayana is a geographical > phenomenon > > > > that has been > > > > > > > > > going on from the dawn of creation and will continue > till > > > > doomsday! It will > > > > > > > > > always fall in one or the other nakshatra! So to qualify > it as > > > > nirayana or > > > > > > > > > sayana is to exhibit one's ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Makar Sankranti is nirayana according to you, that is > just > > > > your > > > > > > > > > prerogative to consider it so! Rashis being imaginary > > > > divisions of > > > > > > > > > imaginary circles can be nirayana or sayana or > co-ordinated or > > > > disjointed or > > > > > > > > > whatever, depending on the " state of mind " of the > beholder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along > with > > > > the shift of > > > > > > > > > lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of > Vedanga > > > > jyotish to Poush > > > > > > > > > full moon.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is impossible to make either head or tail of your > > > > statements! How many > > > > > > > > > times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a > > > > geographical phenomenon > > > > > > > > > that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the > year? > > > > There is no lunar > > > > > > > > > uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the > Uttarayana > > > > day makar > > > > > > > > > Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no > > > > Sankranit at all, > > > > > > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day > as > > > > Makar Sankranti! > > > > > > > > > If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or > sidhantas, > > > > including the > > > > > > > > > Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call > the > > > > Uttarayana Day > > > > > > > > > as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as > desired by > > > > the VJ. If > > > > > > > > > you want to call that by some other name, I cannot > compel you > > > > not to do so, > > > > > > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month > of > > > > solar Tapah and > > > > > > > > > magha start from the day of Uttarayana! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you > would > > > > like to give to > > > > > > > > > the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, > > > > though all the > > > > > > > > > Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as > Pausha > > > > Shukla > > > > > > > > > Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still > > > > celebrating on Poush > > > > > > > > > purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How > can > > > > any dharma > > > > > > > > > shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha > Purnima > > > > since then it > > > > > > > > > would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra > > > > Purnima and so on. > > > > > > > > > Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt > ascribing such > > > > ignorance to > > > > > > > > > dharmashatras! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try > to > > > > spoil our > > > > > > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into > effect > > > > by Pope > > > > > > > > > Gregory.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do > not > > > > read any posts > > > > > > > > > except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a > different > > > > post in > > > > > > > > > response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter > Solstice " > > > > (uttarayana) is > > > > > > > > > a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, > that > > > > even the > > > > > > > > > Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian > calendar is > > > > actually > > > > > > > > > based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean > to > > > > say that even > > > > > > > > > Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced > by > > > > Pope Gregory of > > > > > > > > > fifteenth century AD? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi > division, > > > > whether so called > > > > > > > > > sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you > call > > > > shastriac, has > > > > > > > > > any scientific basis! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation > as to > > > > how I am asking > > > > > > > > > you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " > <harimalla@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " > <harimalla@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namskar! Yes you are right. I mean him. Perhaps your > > > > spelling is more > > > > > > > > > acceptable.If my spelling is not corrrect, then pardon > me. It > > > > is him who > > > > > > > > > wrote Brihad Samhita. I am trying to qouote him in the > chapter > > > > on > > > > > > > > > Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the opening verses > themsielves. If > > > > my translation > > > > > > > > > is not exact then also I request you to correct me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, > clarifies > > > > that Vedanga > > > > > > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as > the > > > > uttrayan for a > > > > > > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha > mihira > > > > (spelling is > > > > > > > > > yours).The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction > was > > > > also nirayan > > > > > > > > > since it is effective to this day as our practice shows > > > > so.This is the > > > > > > > > > classic makar sankranti as uttarayan,along with the > shift of > > > > lunar uttrayan > > > > > > > > > from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to > Poush > > > > full moon.This > > > > > > > > > is also evidint by the Maagha snana we are still > celebrating > > > > on Poush > > > > > > > > > purnima.Please refer to dharma shastras. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, we must now fix a new nirayan uttarayan > which is > > > > close to the > > > > > > > > > present day tropical uttarayan which now falls not in > the > > > > range of puoush > > > > > > > > > purnima but of mrigasira purnima. This would be in the > > > > footsteps of our past > > > > > > > > > reformations rather than succcumbing to the modern > method of > > > > Pope Gregory, > > > > > > > > > whose culture is quite different from our culture, since > they > > > > do not tie up > > > > > > > > > the sun and the moon with the help of adhimases and the > stars > > > > too. Mind > > > > > > > > > you,I am not in favour of indefinite nityanness like > many > > > > astorlogers. But > > > > > > > > > my view is that, the new nirayn sankranti should be > close to > > > > the present > > > > > > > > > tropical sankranti so that although they are slightly > > > > different,but since > > > > > > > > > they both fall within the same fullmoon zone would give > the > > > > correct seasons > > > > > > > > > to the tithis, which are the real basis of our > celebrations. I > > > > feel that > > > > > > > > > those who advocate the sayan system or exactly season > based as > > > > you say, are > > > > > > > > > not really aware of the importance of the nirayan tithis > and > > > > their tie up > > > > > > > > > with the stars.Tying up the fullmoons with the stars and > > > > naming the months > > > > > > > > > as such seems to be older than Vedanga jyotish and is > the very > > > > foundation of > > > > > > > > > our culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try > to > > > > spoil our > > > > > > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into > effect > > > > by Pope > > > > > > > > > Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < What I know is Barahmihir says> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who is this chap " Barahamihr " who is your pet > flogging > > > > horse? I have > > > > > > > > > never heard about him! Was he anyway related to > Varahamihira, > > > > who is said to > > > > > > > > > have compiled " Panchasidhanitka " etc. books in about > fifth > > > > century AD? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " > <harimalla@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I know is Barahmihir says the 'sun in > > > > dhanistha'position as the > > > > > > > > > start of uttarayan, was too old a concept then at his > time and > > > > the > > > > > > > > > occurrence of uttarayan with the sun at makar sankranti > was > > > > logical and > > > > > > > > > could be proved by checking practically. ' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Start of Uttarayan with sun at makar sankranti > > > > (beginning of makar > > > > > > > > > rashi) occurred around 285 AD, as accepted nowadays. One > month > > > > shift of > > > > > > > > > uttarayan occurs in around 2150 years. Thus around > 2150-285 = > > > > 1865 BC > > > > > > > > > becomes the year when uttarayan occurred at the end of > makar > > > > rashi, 30 > > > > > > > > > degrees after the beginning of makar rashi. Before that > time, > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > > occurred when the sun was in Kumbha rashi and not in > makar > > > > rashi. Dakhinsysn > > > > > > > > > started when the sun was in Karkat rashi in 285 AD, > which > > > > means in 1865 BC, > > > > > > > > > it started when the sun was in the end of Karkat rashi. > Before > > > > that > > > > > > > > > dakhinayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi.Thus > at > > > > around 32 century > > > > > > > > > BCE uttarayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi. > This is > > > > the simple > > > > > > > > > mathematics I can explain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the fantastic assumtions, explanations > and > > > > calculations > > > > > > > > > that dakhinayan occurred when the sun entered makar > rashi in > > > > 32nd century > > > > > > > > > BCE, I leave to you, shri Bhattacharyaji to explain. So > please > > > > go ahead and > > > > > > > > > explain whatever you have assumed, by challenging > yourself. I > > > > will surely > > > > > > > > > read it. Do not challenge me to do such silly task. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________ > > > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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