Guest guest Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 parvasudhar2065 , " hari " <harimalla wrote: Dear shri Kaulji, Namskar! I again find your patience is exhausted. I will not trouble you much more. Nonetheless, I would like to request you to confirm one fact, so the truth is clarified. Between makar sankranti and uttarayana let us find which is the primary horse and which is the secondary cart.The question is what do the shastras say? Does uttrayan start from makar sankranti or does makar sankranti start from uttarayan? If the first part is true then makar sankranti is nirayan, if the second part is true then makar sankranti is sayan.Kindly confirm from the sidhantas and puranas which is true, whether it is uttarayan which starts from makar sankranti or makar sankranti starts from uttarayan. With this test your confusion will surely vanish. Thank you for your last patience.My point is uttarayan starts from makar sakranti,(refer:The six months of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat sankranti-SS) which means that makar sankranti is the land mark for the start of uttaryan, only for convenience of daily use, although it may not be exactly true over a long time. This surely proves that makar sankranti does not start from uttarayan.Kindly check it from the shastras.Thank you. Regards, Hari Malla HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > Shri Hari Mallaji, > Jai Shri Ram! > On reading your post, I regret my decision of allowing the same on this forum, since all you are interested in is propagating a calendar which you have a mandate to do, instead of going as per any dharma shastra or purana or sidhanta! If anyone points out those anachronisms to you, he is " blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas " according to you. > Jai Shri Ram! > A K Kaul > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > Namaskar!In continuation of my last mail, I add the following comments. > > My previous statement: > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.> > > Your comment in reply: > > <It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > You are blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas.The puranas and sidhantas do not call uttarayan as makar sankranti, but celebrate uttarayan by makar sankranti by equating one with the other.This equation is the vedic way of coordinating the tropical and sidereal concepts. > > Uttarayan is a geographical event which occurs on the shortest day but is celebrated on the day near it. The celebration is done on the first day of the solar and the lunar months like maagha sukla pratipada or makar sankranti which is the first day of the solar maagha. Since these months are attached to the rashis and nakshyatras,which are thus nirayan or not moving with the seasons,the days of celebrations do not fall on the actual uttarayan date which is tropical or seasonal. Solar uttarayan, known as uttaryan sankranti in dharma shastras, is the first day of the solar month of maagha. Lunar uttarayan tithi falls on the first day of the lunar month of maagha.At present the lunar uttarayan is celebrated on poush purnima, which is one day previous to the lunar purnimanta month of maagha (maagha krishna pratipada). We thus celebrate uttaryan not on the actual uttarayan date which may fall on any date, but only on the first day of solar and\or lunar month. This is the basis given by all the sidhantas and puranas. This is certainly so, only if you do not misinterpret these dates to be tropical uttarayan date. This is also confirmed by the practice itself.Please read Dharma sindhu, which talk of both the solar and the lunar seasons. > > Our shastras prohibit us, not to celebrate on the actual uttarayan date.The reason given for this is that the uttarayan date being related to the earth axis is tilted further away from the lunar pole than the eliptic pole. The lunar pole and the ecliptic pole are closer being separated by only 5 degrees. This has been explained by a story which says Brahmaji (dhruva bindu) is not to be worshipped because he pretended or lied, to have touched the top of the lunar pole, known as jyotir linga of lord Shiva. This means that dhurva bindu is not the highest point, but the lunar pole or ecliptic pole near it, is higher. > > > > <Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and magha start from the day of Uttarayana!> > > > > Sorry to differ form your interpretation of VJ. VJ says that uttarayan occurs when the sun is in dhanistha, or when it is maagha(or tapa) sukla pratipada.Thus uttarayn date is not the start of tapa sukla pratipada but tapa sukla pratipada is the representative day of uttarayan (ie.is assumed to be uttrayan for the civil celebrations). Tapa sukla pratipada touches uttarayan date while it fluctuates back and forth during the fluctuation caused by the adhimases. The lunar uttarayan date, tapa sukla pratipada touches both the solar uttarayan date of 'sun in dhanistha' and the actual uttarayan. > > > > <Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima.> > > > > You have also gone out of tract here.Please learn to give up the idea of purnima succeeding or preceding uttarayan.'Utttaryan purnima' is that purnima which goes both before and after uttarayan.Also tapa sukla pratipada or 'uttarayan pratipada' is the pratipada which goes both before and after uttarayan.This will be clear if you analyse the flucatuation of the uttarayan tithi in the various eras both vedanga and sidhanta.During vedanga jyotish, maagha sukla pratipada went both before and after uttarayan, thus it was the uttarayan pratipada or tithi. In sidhanta period poush purnima 15 days before maagha sukla pratipada, went both before and after uttarayan.Thus this was the uttarayan tithi and maagha snana was celebrated on this date. These will be clear if you study the scientific basis of calendar reform given by a drawing in the prvasudhar forum. Unless you learn to study this drawing you will be in confusion for a long time more.SO kindly study this drawing.The drawings are many times more helpful than the words to understand facts. > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > <Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to dharmashatras!> > > > > Shall I say ignorance is bliss! Please read Dharma sindhu and confirm that it is indeed so.Vaisakh snana is prescribed from the Chaitra purnima day.You have really hit the mark this time.Please read and confirm that Kartik snana is also prescribed from the Aswin purnima date.This was the system introduced from the sidhanta period for the four 'lunar' cardinal points.This will be a great discovery for you in your calendar reform efforts.How nicely you are coming to the truth, accidentally! > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory.> > > > > <Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of fifteenth century AD?> > > > > You want to be vedic, no doubt, but inadvertantly copy pope Gregory mistaking it to be vedic.All your sayan interpretations of the purnas and the sidhantas are showing this.When Lagadh is saying (nirayan) 'sun in dhanistha' and lunar maagha sukla pratidpada are to be, as it were, coordinated with uttarayan, you want to think vedanga jyotish is sayan system like the Gregorain calendar. > > > > <Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has any scientific basis!> > > > > The rashi division of 30 degrees is man made and has been handy to control our adhimases and thus the lunar months.These are nirayan months being attached to the stars.Thus they are sidereal or steller. Since the sun, which really is fixed, is again rigidly fixed by this circle of stars, divided into 30 degrees each, they seem to be much more scientific than the months which alterntely take 30 and 31 days. The 12 equal angular artificial division of space is surely the most scientific way of looking at outer space, which approximates, with the 12 natural lunar months. > > > > <Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " .> > > The purely tropical method is prohibited by our tradition. It is Pope Gregory who has introduced the purely tropical system, because they have only solar months to think of. When you forget our coordinative nature of the tropical and the sidereal systems by the lunar tithis, and want to go purely tropcial in his footsteps, it does appear, quite an imitation of his system. > > Thank you and regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > < Perhaps your spelling is more acceptable. If my spelling is not correct, > > > then pardon me.> > > > > > > It is not a matter of spelling alone! Had you read any works of > > > Varahamihria actually yourself, you would not have been flogging a wrong > > > horse over such a long period! > > > > > > <I am trying to quote him in the chapter on Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the > > > opening verses themselves. If my translation is not exact then also I > > > request you to correct me.> > > > > > > Again the same confusion " perhaps " . Once you read Brihat Samhita fully and > > > compare the discussion of that Uttarayana-cum-Makar Sankranti vis-a-vis the > > > Uttarayana-cum-Makar Sankranti of the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika by > > > the same author, you will be able to understand as to how Varahamihra has > > > contradicted his own views himself about such phenomena. > > > > > > < But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > yours).> > > > > > > My dear friend, pl. do read some books on astronomy! Sun in Dhanishtha > > > nakshatra is an annual phenomenon and has been going on ever since the > > > nakshatras-vis-a-vis the solar movement was recognized! So what is nirayana > > > about it? Similarly, sun is always in one or the other nakshatra! Do you > > > mean to say that sun is as such always nirayana? Same is the case with the > > > Moon! That is also in one or the other nakshatra always! Do you mean to > > > say that the Moon is always nirayana? > > > > > > What a confusion! > > > > > > If there had been any rashis prevailing at the time of the VJ in India, the > > > solar movement would have been recorded vis-a-vis the rashis then during > > > that period also. > > > > > > <The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan since it > > > is effective to this day as our practice shows so.> > > > > > > Again another confusing statement! " Old uttarayana " was nirayana because > > > that was in some nakshtra! " New Uttarayana " also is nirayana because it is > > > in some rashi! Or do you mean to say that if it had been in some rashi > > > instead of nakshatra at the time of the VJ, it would not have been nirayana > > > then? > > > > > > Again, What is nirayana? " New Uttarayana " or makar Sankranti according to > > > you? If it is uttarayana, whether " new " or " old " , you are again talking > > > through your hat since Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that has been > > > going on from the dawn of creation and will continue till doomsday! It will > > > always fall in one or the other nakshatra! So to qualify it as nirayana or > > > sayana is to exhibit one's ignorance. > > > > > > If Makar Sankranti is nirayana according to you, that is just your > > > prerogative to consider it so! Rashis being imaginary divisions of > > > imaginary circles can be nirayana or sayana or co-ordinated or disjointed or > > > whatever, depending on the " state of mind " of the beholder. > > > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of > > > lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush > > > full moon.> > > > > > > > > > > > > It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many > > > times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon > > > that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar > > > uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar > > > Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! > > > If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the > > > Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day > > > as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If > > > you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and > > > magha start from the day of Uttarayana! > > > > > > Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to > > > the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the > > > Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla > > > Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima. > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma > > > shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it > > > would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. > > > Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to > > > dharmashatras! > > > > > > > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > Gregory.> > > > > > > Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts > > > except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in > > > response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is > > > a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the > > > Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually > > > based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even > > > Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of > > > fifteenth century AD? > > > > > > Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called > > > sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has > > > any scientific basis! > > > > > > Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking > > > you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " . > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > Namskar! Yes you are right. I mean him. Perhaps your spelling is more > > > acceptable.If my spelling is not corrrect, then pardon me. It is him who > > > wrote Brihad Samhita. I am trying to qouote him in the chapter on > > > Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the opening verses themsielves.If my translation > > > is not exact then also I request you to correct me. > > > > > > > But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > yours).The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan > > > since it is effective to this day as our practice shows so.This is the > > > classic makar sankranti as uttarayan,along with the shift of lunar uttrayan > > > from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.This > > > is also evidint by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > purnima.Please refer to dharma shastras. > > > > > > > Similarly, we must now fix a new nirayan uttarayan which is close to the > > > present day tropical uttarayan which now falls not in the range of puoush > > > purnima but of mrigasira purnima. This would be in the footsteps of our past > > > reformations rather than succcumbing to the modern method of Pope Gregory, > > > whose culture is quite different from our culture, since they do not tie up > > > the sun and the moon with the help of adhimases and the stars too. Mind > > > you,I am not in favour of indefinite nityanness like many astorlogers. But > > > my view is that, the new nirayn sankranti should be close to the present > > > tropical sankranti so that although they are slightly different,but since > > > they both fall within the same fullmoon zone would give the correct seasons > > > to the tithis, which are the real basis of our celebrations. I feel that > > > those who advocate the sayan system or exactly season based as you say, are > > > not really aware of the importance of the nirayan tithis and their tie up > > > with the stars.Tying up the fullmoons with the stars and naming the months > > > as such seems to be older than Vedanga jyotish and is the very foundation of > > > our culture. > > > > > > > So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > Gregory. > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > < What I know is Barahmihir says> > > > > > > > > Who is this chap " Barahamihr " who is your pet flogging horse? I have > > > never heard about him! Was he anyway related to Varahamihira, who is said to > > > have compiled " Panchasidhanitka " etc. books in about fifth century AD? > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji, > > > > > > > > > What I know is Barahmihir says the 'sun in dhanistha'position as the > > > start of uttarayan, was too old a concept then at his time and the > > > occurrence of uttarayan with the sun at makar sankranti was logical and > > > could be proved by checking practically.' > > > > > > > > > Start of Uttarayan with sun at makar sankranti (beginning of makar > > > rashi) occurred around 285 AD, as accepted nowadays. One month shift of > > > uttarayan occurs in around 2150 years. Thus around 2150-285 = 1865 BC > > > becomes the year when uttarayan occurred at the end of makar rashi, 30 > > > degrees after the beginning of makar rashi. Before that time, uttarayan > > > occurred when the sun was in Kumbha rashi and not in makar rashi. Dakhinsysn > > > started when the sun was in Karkat rashi in 285 AD, which means in 1865 BC, > > > it started when the sun was in the end of Karkat rashi. Before that > > > dakhinayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi.Thus at around 32 century > > > BCE uttarayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi. This is the simple > > > mathematics I can explain. > > > > > > > > > The rest of the fantastic assumtions, explanations and calculations > > > that dakhinayan occurred when the sun entered makar rashi in 32nd century > > > BCE, I leave to you, shri Bhattacharyaji to explain. So please go ahead and > > > explain whatever you have assumed, by challenging yourself. I will surely > > > read it. Do not challenge me to do such silly task. > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Dear members of , Jai Shri Ram! Shri Hari Malla has " established " himself as my " examiner " and has set the following test: <My point is uttarayan starts from makar sakranti,(refer:The six months of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat sankranti-SS) which means that makar sankranti is the land mark for the start of uttaryan, only for convenience of daily use, although it may not be exactly true over a long time. This surely proves that makar sankranti does not start from uttarayan> With such self-contrqadictory statments, I wonder whether Shri Hari Malla is even qualified to be a good student! As such, I reject his tests and pity his ignorance. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , " hari " <harimalla wrote: > > parvasudhar2065 , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > Dear shri Kaulji, > Namskar! I again find your patience is exhausted. I will not trouble you much more. Nonetheless, I would like to request you to confirm one fact, so the truth is clarified. Between makar sankranti and uttarayana let us find which is the primary horse and which is the secondary cart.The question is what do the shastras say? Does uttrayan start from makar sankranti or does makar sankranti start from uttarayan? If the first part is true then makar sankranti is nirayan, if the second part is true then makar sankranti is sayan.Kindly confirm from the sidhantas and puranas which is true, whether it is uttarayan which starts from makar sankranti or makar sankranti starts from uttarayan. > With this test your confusion will surely vanish. Thank you for your last patience.My point is uttarayan starts from makar sakranti,(refer:The six months of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat sankranti-SS) which means that makar sankranti is the land mark for the start of uttaryan, only for convenience of daily use, although it may not be exactly true over a long time. This surely proves that makar sankranti does not start from uttarayan.Kindly check it from the shastras.Thank you. > Regards, > Hari Malla > > > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Shri Hari Mallaji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > On reading your post, I regret my decision of allowing the same on this forum, since all you are interested in is propagating a calendar which you have a mandate to do, instead of going as per any dharma shastra or purana or sidhanta! If anyone points out those anachronisms to you, he is " blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas " according to you. > > Jai Shri Ram! > > A K Kaul > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > Namaskar!In continuation of my last mail, I add the following comments. > > > My previous statement: > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.> > > > Your comment in reply: > > > <It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > > You are blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas.The puranas and sidhantas do not call uttarayan as makar sankranti, but celebrate uttarayan by makar sankranti by equating one with the other.This equation is the vedic way of coordinating the tropical and sidereal concepts. > > > Uttarayan is a geographical event which occurs on the shortest day but is celebrated on the day near it. The celebration is done on the first day of the solar and the lunar months like maagha sukla pratipada or makar sankranti which is the first day of the solar maagha. Since these months are attached to the rashis and nakshyatras,which are thus nirayan or not moving with the seasons,the days of celebrations do not fall on the actual uttarayan date which is tropical or seasonal. Solar uttarayan, known as uttaryan sankranti in dharma shastras, is the first day of the solar month of maagha. Lunar uttarayan tithi falls on the first day of the lunar month of maagha.At present the lunar uttarayan is celebrated on poush purnima, which is one day previous to the lunar purnimanta month of maagha (maagha krishna pratipada). We thus celebrate uttaryan not on the actual uttarayan date which may fall on any date, but only on the first day of solar and\or lunar month. This is the basis given by all the sidhantas and puranas. This is certainly so, only if you do not misinterpret these dates to be tropical uttarayan date. This is also confirmed by the practice itself.Please read Dharma sindhu, which talk of both the solar and the lunar seasons. > > > Our shastras prohibit us, not to celebrate on the actual uttarayan date.The reason given for this is that the uttarayan date being related to the earth axis is tilted further away from the lunar pole than the eliptic pole. The lunar pole and the ecliptic pole are closer being separated by only 5 degrees. This has been explained by a story which says Brahmaji (dhruva bindu) is not to be worshipped because he pretended or lied, to have touched the top of the lunar pole, known as jyotir linga of lord Shiva. This means that dhurva bindu is not the highest point, but the lunar pole or ecliptic pole near it, is higher. > > > > > > <Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and magha start from the day of Uttarayana!> > > > > > > Sorry to differ form your interpretation of VJ. VJ says that uttarayan occurs when the sun is in dhanistha, or when it is maagha(or tapa) sukla pratipada.Thus uttarayn date is not the start of tapa sukla pratipada but tapa sukla pratipada is the representative day of uttarayan (ie.is assumed to be uttrayan for the civil celebrations). Tapa sukla pratipada touches uttarayan date while it fluctuates back and forth during the fluctuation caused by the adhimases. The lunar uttarayan date, tapa sukla pratipada touches both the solar uttarayan date of 'sun in dhanistha' and the actual uttarayan. > > > > > > <Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima.> > > > > > > You have also gone out of tract here.Please learn to give up the idea of purnima succeeding or preceding uttarayan.'Utttaryan purnima' is that purnima which goes both before and after uttarayan.Also tapa sukla pratipada or 'uttarayan pratipada' is the pratipada which goes both before and after uttarayan.This will be clear if you analyse the flucatuation of the uttarayan tithi in the various eras both vedanga and sidhanta.During vedanga jyotish, maagha sukla pratipada went both before and after uttarayan, thus it was the uttarayan pratipada or tithi. In sidhanta period poush purnima 15 days before maagha sukla pratipada, went both before and after uttarayan.Thus this was the uttarayan tithi and maagha snana was celebrated on this date. These will be clear if you study the scientific basis of calendar reform given by a drawing in the prvasudhar forum. Unless you learn to study this drawing you will be in confusion for a long time more.SO kindly study this drawing.The drawings are many times more helpful than the words to understand facts. > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > <Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to dharmashatras!> > > > > > > Shall I say ignorance is bliss! Please read Dharma sindhu and confirm that it is indeed so.Vaisakh snana is prescribed from the Chaitra purnima day.You have really hit the mark this time.Please read and confirm that Kartik snana is also prescribed from the Aswin purnima date.This was the system introduced from the sidhanta period for the four 'lunar' cardinal points.This will be a great discovery for you in your calendar reform efforts.How nicely you are coming to the truth, accidentally! > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory.> > > > > > > <Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of fifteenth century AD?> > > > > > > You want to be vedic, no doubt, but inadvertantly copy pope Gregory mistaking it to be vedic.All your sayan interpretations of the purnas and the sidhantas are showing this.When Lagadh is saying (nirayan) 'sun in dhanistha' and lunar maagha sukla pratidpada are to be, as it were, coordinated with uttarayan, you want to think vedanga jyotish is sayan system like the Gregorain calendar. > > > > > > <Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has any scientific basis!> > > > > > > The rashi division of 30 degrees is man made and has been handy to control our adhimases and thus the lunar months.These are nirayan months being attached to the stars.Thus they are sidereal or steller. Since the sun, which really is fixed, is again rigidly fixed by this circle of stars, divided into 30 degrees each, they seem to be much more scientific than the months which alterntely take 30 and 31 days. The 12 equal angular artificial division of space is surely the most scientific way of looking at outer space, which approximates, with the 12 natural lunar months. > > > > > > <Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " .> > > > The purely tropical method is prohibited by our tradition. It is Pope Gregory who has introduced the purely tropical system, because they have only solar months to think of. When you forget our coordinative nature of the tropical and the sidereal systems by the lunar tithis, and want to go purely tropcial in his footsteps, it does appear, quite an imitation of his system. > > > Thank you and regards, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > < Perhaps your spelling is more acceptable. If my spelling is not correct, > > > > then pardon me.> > > > > > > > > It is not a matter of spelling alone! Had you read any works of > > > > Varahamihria actually yourself, you would not have been flogging a wrong > > > > horse over such a long period! > > > > > > > > <I am trying to quote him in the chapter on Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the > > > > opening verses themselves. If my translation is not exact then also I > > > > request you to correct me.> > > > > > > > > Again the same confusion " perhaps " . Once you read Brihat Samhita fully and > > > > compare the discussion of that Uttarayana-cum-Makar Sankranti vis-a-vis the > > > > Uttarayana-cum-Makar Sankranti of the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika by > > > > the same author, you will be able to understand as to how Varahamihra has > > > > contradicted his own views himself about such phenomena. > > > > > > > > < But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > > yours).> > > > > > > > > My dear friend, pl. do read some books on astronomy! Sun in Dhanishtha > > > > nakshatra is an annual phenomenon and has been going on ever since the > > > > nakshatras-vis-a-vis the solar movement was recognized! So what is nirayana > > > > about it? Similarly, sun is always in one or the other nakshatra! Do you > > > > mean to say that sun is as such always nirayana? Same is the case with the > > > > Moon! That is also in one or the other nakshatra always! Do you mean to > > > > say that the Moon is always nirayana? > > > > > > > > What a confusion! > > > > > > > > If there had been any rashis prevailing at the time of the VJ in India, the > > > > solar movement would have been recorded vis-a-vis the rashis then during > > > > that period also. > > > > > > > > <The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan since it > > > > is effective to this day as our practice shows so.> > > > > > > > > Again another confusing statement! " Old uttarayana " was nirayana because > > > > that was in some nakshtra! " New Uttarayana " also is nirayana because it is > > > > in some rashi! Or do you mean to say that if it had been in some rashi > > > > instead of nakshatra at the time of the VJ, it would not have been nirayana > > > > then? > > > > > > > > Again, What is nirayana? " New Uttarayana " or makar Sankranti according to > > > > you? If it is uttarayana, whether " new " or " old " , you are again talking > > > > through your hat since Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that has been > > > > going on from the dawn of creation and will continue till doomsday! It will > > > > always fall in one or the other nakshatra! So to qualify it as nirayana or > > > > sayana is to exhibit one's ignorance. > > > > > > > > If Makar Sankranti is nirayana according to you, that is just your > > > > prerogative to consider it so! Rashis being imaginary divisions of > > > > imaginary circles can be nirayana or sayana or co-ordinated or disjointed or > > > > whatever, depending on the " state of mind " of the beholder. > > > > > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift of > > > > lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush > > > > full moon.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How many > > > > times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon > > > > that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar > > > > uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar > > > > Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! > > > > If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the > > > > Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana Day > > > > as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If > > > > you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so, > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and > > > > magha start from the day of Uttarayana! > > > > > > > > Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to give to > > > > the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the > > > > Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla > > > > Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima. > > > > > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > > purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.> > > > > > > > > Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma > > > > shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it > > > > would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. > > > > Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to > > > > dharmashatras! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > > Gregory.> > > > > > > > > Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any posts > > > > except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in > > > > response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is > > > > a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the > > > > Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually > > > > based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even > > > > Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of > > > > fifteenth century AD? > > > > > > > > Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so called > > > > sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac, has > > > > any scientific basis! > > > > > > > > Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am asking > > > > you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " . > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > Namskar! Yes you are right. I mean him. Perhaps your spelling is more > > > > acceptable.If my spelling is not corrrect, then pardon me. It is him who > > > > wrote Brihad Samhita. I am trying to qouote him in the chapter on > > > > Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the opening verses themsielves.If my translation > > > > is not exact then also I request you to correct me. > > > > > > > > > But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that Vedanga > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan for a > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is > > > > yours).The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan > > > > since it is effective to this day as our practice shows so.This is the > > > > classic makar sankranti as uttarayan,along with the shift of lunar uttrayan > > > > from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full moon.This > > > > is also evidint by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush > > > > purnima.Please refer to dharma shastras. > > > > > > > > > Similarly, we must now fix a new nirayan uttarayan which is close to the > > > > present day tropical uttarayan which now falls not in the range of puoush > > > > purnima but of mrigasira purnima. This would be in the footsteps of our past > > > > reformations rather than succcumbing to the modern method of Pope Gregory, > > > > whose culture is quite different from our culture, since they do not tie up > > > > the sun and the moon with the help of adhimases and the stars too. Mind > > > > you,I am not in favour of indefinite nityanness like many astorlogers. But > > > > my view is that, the new nirayn sankranti should be close to the present > > > > tropical sankranti so that although they are slightly different,but since > > > > they both fall within the same fullmoon zone would give the correct seasons > > > > to the tithis, which are the real basis of our celebrations. I feel that > > > > those who advocate the sayan system or exactly season based as you say, are > > > > not really aware of the importance of the nirayan tithis and their tie up > > > > with the stars.Tying up the fullmoons with the stars and naming the months > > > > as such seems to be older than Vedanga jyotish and is the very foundation of > > > > our culture. > > > > > > > > > So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope > > > > Gregory. > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > < What I know is Barahmihir says> > > > > > > > > > > Who is this chap " Barahamihr " who is your pet flogging horse? I have > > > > never heard about him! Was he anyway related to Varahamihira, who is said to > > > > have compiled " Panchasidhanitka " etc. books in about fifth century AD? > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji, > > > > > > > > > > > What I know is Barahmihir says the 'sun in dhanistha'position as the > > > > start of uttarayan, was too old a concept then at his time and the > > > > occurrence of uttarayan with the sun at makar sankranti was logical and > > > > could be proved by checking practically.' > > > > > > > > > > > Start of Uttarayan with sun at makar sankranti (beginning of makar > > > > rashi) occurred around 285 AD, as accepted nowadays. One month shift of > > > > uttarayan occurs in around 2150 years. Thus around 2150-285 = 1865 BC > > > > becomes the year when uttarayan occurred at the end of makar rashi, 30 > > > > degrees after the beginning of makar rashi. Before that time, uttarayan > > > > occurred when the sun was in Kumbha rashi and not in makar rashi. Dakhinsysn > > > > started when the sun was in Karkat rashi in 285 AD, which means in 1865 BC, > > > > it started when the sun was in the end of Karkat rashi. Before that > > > > dakhinayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi.Thus at around 32 century > > > > BCE uttarayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi. This is the simple > > > > mathematics I can explain. > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the fantastic assumtions, explanations and calculations > > > > that dakhinayan occurred when the sun entered makar rashi in 32nd century > > > > BCE, I leave to you, shri Bhattacharyaji to explain. So please go ahead and > > > > explain whatever you have assumed, by challenging yourself. I will surely > > > > read it. Do not challenge me to do such silly task. > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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