Fwd: The views of PNB, reply to SK Bhattacharyaji from Mr. Wilkinson.

December 19, 2009

parvasudhar2065 , " hari " <harimalla wrote:

Dear Bhupendra Jamnadasji,

Namaskar!

<Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year,

what additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to

indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also

not going to be on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a

separate date on the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sankranti.>

Makar sankranti does fall at the middle of the fluctuation zone of poush full

moon while it fluctuates by adhimas every third year. During this same period,

the actual uttarayan also remains within this same fullmoon zone for about 1175

to 2150 years, depending upon wether one takes only one side of the sankranti or

both sides.Poush full moon fluctuates on both sides of Makar sankranti 15\16

days before and after.

Thus in Dharma shastra Poush purnima is taken as the start of Maagha snana even

today, indicating that Poush purnima is the tithi for uttarayan.But since now

adays, uttarayan does not start from Poush purnima zone, but from Mrigashira

purnima zone, it is high time we shifted our new uttarayan tithi as Mrigashira

purnima instead of Poush purnima. The new uttarayan sankranti thus becomes not

Makar sankranti but Dhanu sankranti.To keep up the spirit of SB Dixit who says

it is difficult to change the wordings of Dharma shastras, we better call the

new uttaryan sankranti also as Makar sankranti instead of the present name Dhanu

sankranti. Thus we have to call the present Dhanu sankranti as Makar sankranti

and the rpesent Mrigasira purnima as Poush purnima, in the sayan fashion, and

our coordinative calendar reform is faultlessly completed.

Regards,

Hari

parvasudhar2065 , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

>

> Dear Bhupendra Jamnadasji,

>

> Thank you fo your interest in the issue.You know uttarayan is a changing point

every year with respect to the stars. But the stars like dhanistha or makar

sankranti are fixed points, which can be seen by the naked eyes. So it was

convenient to fix the sun in dhanistha position, as uttarayan for convenience of

observation during Vedanga jyotish days.It was also convenient to fix makar

sankranti as uttarayan during the early century of Vikram Sambat.Once it was

fixed, these points remained as nirayan uttarayan for a very long time say one

thousand to two thousand years.In fact it wsa a necessary convenience.

> It was also costumary to fix separate uttarayan dates by lunar tithi.During

Vedanga jyotish they fixed Maagha sukla pratipada to represent uttarayan. And

during sidhant period they fixed Poush purnima as the lunar uttarayan.These

lunar dates fluctuated over a month due to adhimas. Thus as these tithis

fluctuated over a region, which contained the actual uttarayan they did not find

it necessary to shift the nirayn uttarayan with the sun fixed at certain star,

frequently.Thus you are quite right when you say that they were quite elaborate

and did not do so only for conveneience.I fully agree with you. But the method

they followed were not only convenient but also elaboraate and exactly

meaningful. I do agree with you.Only for people who did not understand like

shri Kaulji I used the word convenience, so he may understand some aspect at

least.

> Regards,

> Hari Malla

>

> - In HinduCalendar , Bhupendra Jamnadas <b_jamnadas@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Hari mala Ji,

> >

> > Could not avoid noticing this exchange between you and AK Kaul Ji. What you

are suggesting here is that for convenience purpose only, the scriptures have

indicate 1st day Makar Sanskranti to mark the beginning of Uttarayana. Since

Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year, what

additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to indicate the

start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also not going to be

on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a separate date on

the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sanskranti. If the scriptures

are out convenience trying to bundle to 2 events in a single calender event, it

seems very dubious and indicates scriptures that were doctored by people who

somehow were trying to fit these events into their methematical model and were

having trouble syncing their calculations with actual phenomena of the shortest

day.

> >

> > Our scriptures are very elaborate, it does not make sense that just out of

convenience, these 2 events are bundled into one for the sake simpler calender.

There is something definitely wrong here.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Bhupendra.

> >

> > ________________________________

> > hari <harimalla@>

> > HinduCalendar

> > Wed, December 16, 2009 1:48:30 AM

> > [HinduCalendar] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet

> >

> > Â

> > Dear shri Kaulji,

> > Namskar! I again find your patience is exhausted. I will not trouble you

much more. Nonetheless, I would like to request you to confirm one fact, so the

truth is clarified. Between makar sankranti and uttarayana let us find which is

the primary horse and which is the secondary cart.The question is what do the

shastras say? Does uttrayan start from makar sankranti or does makar sankranti

start from uttarayan? If the first part is true then makar sankranti is nirayan,

if the second part is true then makar sankranti is sayan.Kindly confirm from the

sidhantas and puranas which is true, whether it is uttarayan which starts from

makar sankranti or makar sankranti starts from uttarayan.

> > With this test your confusion will surely vanish. Thank you for your last

patience.My point is uttarayan starts from makar sakranti,(refer: The six months

of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat sankranti-SS) which means that

makar sankranti is the land mark for the start of uttaryan, only for convenience

of daily use, although it may not be exactly true over a long time. This surely

proves that makar sankranti does not start from uttarayan.Kindly check it from

the shastras.Thank you.

> > Regards,

> > Hari Malla

> >

> > HinduCalendar, " Krishen " <jyotirved@ ..> wrote:

> > >

> > > Shri Hari Mallaji,

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > On reading your post, I regret my decision of allowing the same on this

forum, since all you are interested in is propagating a calendar which you have

a mandate to do, instead of going as per any dharma shastra or purana or

sidhanta! If anyone points out those anachronisms to you, he is " blatantly

misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas " according to you.

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > A K Kaul

> > >

> > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear shri Kaulji,

> > > > Namaskar!In continuation of my last mail, I add the following comments.

> > > > My previous statement:

> > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the shift

of lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush

full moon.>

> > > > Your comment in reply:

> > > > <It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How

many times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon

that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar

uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar Sankranti

or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, though all the

sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! If you do not want

to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the Surya Sidhanta of

Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. >

> > > >

> > > > You are blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas.The

puranas and sidhantas do not call uttarayan as makar sankranti, but celebrate

uttarayan by makar sankranti by equating one with the other.This equation is the

vedic way of coordinating the tropical and sidereal concepts.

> > > > Uttarayan is a geographical event which occurs on the shortest day but

is celebrated on the day near it. The celebration is done on the first day of

the solar and the lunar months like maagha sukla pratipada or makar sankranti

which is the first day of the solar maagha. Since these months are attached to

the rashis and nakshyatras, which are thus nirayan or not moving with the

seasons,the days of celebrations do not fall on the actual uttarayan date which

is tropical or seasonal. Solar uttarayan, known as uttaryan sankranti in dharma

shastras, is the first day of the solar month of maagha. Lunar uttarayan tithi

falls on the first day of the lunar month of maagha.At present the lunar

uttarayan is celebrated on poush purnima, which is one day previous to the lunar

purnimanta month of maagha (maagha krishna pratipada). We thus celebrate

uttaryan not on the actual uttarayan date which may fall on any date, but only

on the first day of solar and\or lunar

> > month. This is the basis given by all the sidhantas and puranas. This is

certainly so, only if you do not misinterpret these dates to be tropical

uttarayan date. This is also confirmed by the practice itself.Please read Dharma

sindhu, which talk of both the solar and the lunar seasons.

> > > > Our shastras prohibit us, not to celebrate on the actual uttarayan

date.The reason given for this is that the uttarayan date being related to the

earth axis is tilted further away from the lunar pole than the eliptic pole. The

lunar pole and the ecliptic pole are closer being separated by only 5 degrees.

This has been explained by a story which says Brahmaji (dhruva bindu) is not to

be worshipped because he pretended or lied, to have touched the top of the lunar

pole, known as jyotir linga of lord Shiva. This means that dhurva bindu is not

the highest point, but the lunar pole or ecliptic pole near it, is higher.

> > > >

> > > > <Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana

Day as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ. If

you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to do so,

though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah and magha

start from the day of Uttarayana!>

> > > >

> > > > Sorry to differ form your interpretation of VJ. VJ says that uttarayan

occurs when the sun is in dhanistha, or when it is maagha(or tapa) sukla

pratipada.Thus uttarayn date is not the start of tapa sukla pratipada but tapa

sukla pratipada is the representative day of uttarayan (ie.is assumed to be

uttrayan for the civil celebrations) . Tapa sukla pratipada touches uttarayan

date while it fluctuates back and forth during the fluctuation caused by the

adhimases. The lunar uttarayan date, tapa sukla pratipada touches both the solar

uttarayan date of 'sun in dhanistha' and the actual uttarayan.

> > > >

> > > > <Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to

give to the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all the

Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla Purnima and

succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima.>

> > > >

> > > > You have also gone out of tract here.Please learn to give up the idea of

purnima succeeding or preceding uttarayan.'Utttarya n purnima' is that purnima

which goes both before and after uttarayan.Also tapa sukla pratipada or

'uttarayan pratipada' is the pratipada which goes both before and after

uttarayan.This will be clear if you analyse the flucatuation of the uttarayan

tithi in the various eras both vedanga and sidhanta.During vedanga jyotish,

maagha sukla pratipada went both before and after uttarayan, thus it was the

uttarayan pratipada or tithi. In sidhanta period poush purnima 15 days before

maagha sukla pratipada, went both before and after uttarayan.Thus this was the

uttarayan tithi and maagha snana was celebrated on this date. These will be

clear if you study the scientific basis of calendar reform given by a drawing in

the prvasudhar forum. Unless you learn to study this drawing you will be in

confusion for a long time more.SO kindly study

> > this drawing.The drawings are many times more helpful than the words to

understand facts.

> > > >

> > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on

Poush purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.>

> > > >

> > > > <Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any dharma

shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since then it

would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so on. Pl.

do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such ignorance to

dharmashatras! >

> > > >

> > > > Shall I say ignorance is bliss! Please read Dharma sindhu and confirm

that it is indeed so.Vaisakh snana is prescribed from the Chaitra purnima

day.You have really hit the mark this time.Please read and confirm that Kartik

snana is also prescribed from the Aswin purnima date.This was the system

introduced from the sidhanta period for the four 'lunar' cardinal points.This

will be a great discovery for you in your calendar reform efforts.How nicely you

are coming to the truth, accidentally!

> > > >

> > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our

pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory.>

> > > >

> > > > <Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any

posts except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in

response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice " (uttarayana) is a

Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the Julian

Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is actually based on the

Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that even Acharya Lagadha of

fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope Gregory of fifteenth century AD?>

> > > >

> > > > You want to be vedic, no doubt, but inadvertantly copy pope Gregory

mistaking it to be vedic.All your sayan interpretations of the purnas and the

sidhantas are showing this.When Lagadh is saying (nirayan) 'sun in dhanistha'

and lunar maagha sukla pratidpada are to be, as it were, coordinated with

uttarayan, you want to think vedanga jyotish is sayan system like the Gregorain

calendar.

> > > >

> > > > <Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so

called sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call shastriac,

has any scientific basis!>

> > > >

> > > > The rashi division of 30 degrees is man made and has been handy to

control our adhimases and thus the lunar months.These are nirayan months being

attached to the stars.Thus they are sidereal or steller. Since the sun, which

really is fixed, is again rigidly fixed by this circle of stars, divided into 30

degrees each, they seem to be much more scientific than the months which

alterntely take 30 and 31 days. The 12 equal angular artificial division of

space is surely the most scientific way of looking at outer space, which

approximates, with the 12 natural lunar months.

> > > >

> > > > <Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am

asking you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " .>

> > > > The purely tropical method is prohibited by our tradition. It is Pope

Gregory who has introduced the purely tropical system, because they have only

solar months to think of. When you forget our coordinative nature of the

tropical and the sidereal systems by the lunar tithis, and want to go purely

tropcial in his footsteps, it does appear, quite an imitation of his system.

> > > > Thank you and regards,

> > > > Hari Malla

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar, " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > > < Perhaps your spelling is more acceptable. If my spelling is not

correct,

> > > > > then pardon me.>

> > > > >

> > > > > It is not a matter of spelling alone! Had you read any works of

> > > > > Varahamihria actually yourself, you would not have been flogging a

wrong

> > > > > horse over such a long period!

> > > > >

> > > > > <I am trying to quote him in the chapter on Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps

the

> > > > > opening verses themselves. If my translation is not exact then also I

> > > > > request you to correct me.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Again the same confusion " perhaps " . Once you read Brihat Samhita fully

and

> > > > > compare the discussion of that Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti

vis-a-vis the

> > > > > Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti of the Surya Sidhanta of

Panchasidhantika by

> > > > > the same author, you will be able to understand as to how Varahamihra

has

> > > > > contradicted his own views himself about such phenomena.

> > > > >

> > > > > < But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that

Vedanga

> > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan

for a

> > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is

> > > > > yours).>

> > > > >

> > > > > My dear friend, pl. do read some books on astronomy! Sun in Dhanishtha

> > > > > nakshatra is an annual phenomenon and has been going on ever since the

> > > > > nakshatras-vis- a-vis the solar movement was recognized! So what is

nirayana

> > > > > about it? Similarly, sun is always in one or the other nakshatra! Do

you

> > > > > mean to say that sun is as such always nirayana? Same is the case with

the

> > > > > Moon! That is also in one or the other nakshatra always! Do you mean

to

> > > > > say that the Moon is always nirayana?

> > > > >

> > > > > What a confusion!

> > > > >

> > > > > If there had been any rashis prevailing at the time of the VJ in

India, the

> > > > > solar movement would have been recorded vis-a-vis the rashis then

during

> > > > > that period also.

> > > > >

> > > > > <The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also nirayan

since it

> > > > > is effective to this day as our practice shows so.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Again another confusing statement! " Old uttarayana " was nirayana

because

> > > > > that was in some nakshtra! " New Uttarayana " also is nirayana because

it is

> > > > > in some rashi! Or do you mean to say that if it had been in some rashi

> > > > > instead of nakshatra at the time of the VJ, it would not have been

nirayana

> > > > > then?

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, What is nirayana? " New Uttarayana " or makar Sankranti according

to

> > > > > you? If it is uttarayana, whether " new " or " old " , you are again

talking

> > > > > through your hat since Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon that

has been

> > > > > going on from the dawn of creation and will continue till doomsday! It

will

> > > > > always fall in one or the other nakshatra! So to qualify it as

nirayana or

> > > > > sayana is to exhibit one's ignorance.

> > > > >

> > > > > If Makar Sankranti is nirayana according to you, that is just your

> > > > > prerogative to consider it so! Rashis being imaginary divisions of

> > > > > imaginary circles can be nirayana or sayana or co-ordinated or

disjointed or

> > > > > whatever, depending on the " state of mind " of the beholder.

> > > > >

> > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the

shift of

> > > > > lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to

Poush

> > > > > full moon.>

> > > > >

> > > > > It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How

many

> > > > > times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical

phenomenon

> > > > > that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no

lunar

> > > > > uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar

> > > > > Sankranti or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at

all,

> > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar

Sankranti!

> > > > > If you do not want to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including

the

> > > > > Surya Sidhanta of Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so.

> > > > >

> > > > > Similarly, it is again up to you as to whether you call the Uttarayana

Day

> > > > > as the start of Tapah month or solar Magha month as desired by the VJ.

If

> > > > > you want to call that by some other name, I cannot compel you not to

do so,

> > > > > though all the sidhantas and Puranas say that the month of solar Tapah

and

> > > > > magha start from the day of Uttarayana!

> > > > >

> > > > > Similarly, it is for you to decide as to what name you would like to

give to

> > > > > the Purnima preceding or succeeding the Winter Solstice, though all

the

> > > > > Puranas say that we must call the preceding Purnima as Pausha Shukla

> > > > > Purnima and succeeding Purnima as Magha Shukla Purnima.

> > > > >

> > > > > <This is also evident by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on

Poush

> > > > > purnima. Please refer to dharma shastras.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Again the same confusing and confounding statements! How can any

dharma

> > > > > shastra advise you to celebrate Magha snana on Pausha Purnima since

then it

> > > > > would advise you to celebrate Vaishkha snana on Chaitra Purnima and so

on.

> > > > > Pl. do not expose your motives all the more byt ascribing such

ignorance to

> > > > > dharmashatras!

> > > > >

> > > > > <So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our

> > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope

> > > > > Gregory.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Either your memory is proverbially short or you just do not read any

posts

> > > > > except your own! I have demonstrated it already in a different post in

> > > > > response to a gentleman's insinuation that " Winter Solstice "

(uttarayana) is

> > > > > a Christian festival thrust on the Hindus by Christians, that even the

> > > > > Julian Calendar, the erstwhile avatar of Gregorian calendar is

actually

> > > > > based on the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha! Or do you mean to say that

even

> > > > > Acharya Lagadha of fifteenth century BCE was influenced by Pope

Gregory of

> > > > > fifteenth century AD?

> > > > >

> > > > > Then again, you have yet to prove that the rashi division, whether so

called

> > > > > sayana (which you call Gregorian) or nirayana, which you call

shastriac, has

> > > > > any scientific basis!

> > > > >

> > > > > Above all, would you kindly elucidate your insinuation as to how I am

asking

> > > > > you " to go by the concept brought into effect by Pope Gregory " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > > AKK

> > > > >

> > > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji,

> > > > >

> > > > > > Namskar! Yes you are right. I mean him. Perhaps your spelling is

more

> > > > > acceptable.If my spelling is not corrrect, then pardon me. It is him

who

> > > > > wrote Brihad Samhita. I am trying to qouote him in the chapter on

> > > > > Adityacharadhyaya, perhaps the opening verses themsielves. If my

translation

> > > > > is not exact then also I request you to correct me.

> > > > >

> > > > > > But I am convinced that the intent of the verses, clarifies that

Vedanga

> > > > > jyotish was nirayan,'sun at dhanistha' being accepted as the uttrayan

for a

> > > > > very long time even nearly till the time of Varaha mihira (spelling is

> > > > > yours).The new uttarayan, he accepted after correction was also

nirayan

> > > > > since it is effective to this day as our practice shows so.This is the

> > > > > classic makar sankranti as uttarayan,along with the shift of lunar

uttrayan

> > > > > from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to Poush full

moon.This

> > > > > is also evidint by the Maagha snana we are still celebrating on Poush

> > > > > purnima.Please refer to dharma shastras.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Similarly, we must now fix a new nirayan uttarayan which is close to

the

> > > > > present day tropical uttarayan which now falls not in the range of

puoush

> > > > > purnima but of mrigasira purnima. This would be in the footsteps of

our past

> > > > > reformations rather than succcumbing to the modern method of Pope

Gregory,

> > > > > whose culture is quite different from our culture, since they do not

tie up

> > > > > the sun and the moon with the help of adhimases and the stars too.

Mind

> > > > > you,I am not in favour of indefinite nityanness like many astorlogers.

But

> > > > > my view is that, the new nirayn sankranti should be close to the

present

> > > > > tropical sankranti so that although they are slightly different,but

since

> > > > > they both fall within the same fullmoon zone would give the correct

seasons

> > > > > to the tithis, which are the real basis of our celebrations. I feel

that

> > > > > those who advocate the sayan system or exactly season based as you

say, are

> > > > > not really aware of the importance of the nirayan tithis and their tie

up

> > > > > with the stars.Tying up the fullmoons with the stars and naming the

months

> > > > > as such seems to be older than Vedanga jyotish and is the very

foundation of

> > > > > our culture.

> > > > >

> > > > > > So my request to specially you shri Kaulji, do not try to spoil our

> > > > > pristine vedic culture, with the concept brought into effect by Pope

> > > > > Gregory.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks and Regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > > Hari Malla

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > > > > < What I know is Barahmihir says>

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Who is this chap " Barahamihr " who is your pet flogging horse? I

have

> > > > > never heard about him! Was he anyway related to Varahamihira, who is

said to

> > > > > have compiled " Panchasidhanitka " etc. books in about fifth century AD?

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > > > > AKK

> > > > >

> > > > > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji,

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > What I know is Barahmihir says the 'sun in dhanistha'position as

the

> > > > > start of uttarayan, was too old a concept then at his time and the

> > > > > occurrence of uttarayan with the sun at makar sankranti was logical

and

> > > > > could be proved by checking practically. '

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Start of Uttarayan with sun at makar sankranti (beginning of

makar

> > > > > rashi) occurred around 285 AD, as accepted nowadays. One month shift

of

> > > > > uttarayan occurs in around 2150 years. Thus around 2150-285 = 1865 BC

> > > > > becomes the year when uttarayan occurred at the end of makar rashi, 30

> > > > > degrees after the beginning of makar rashi. Before that time,

uttarayan

> > > > > occurred when the sun was in Kumbha rashi and not in makar rashi.

Dakhinsysn

> > > > > started when the sun was in Karkat rashi in 285 AD, which means in

1865 BC,

> > > > > it started when the sun was in the end of Karkat rashi. Before that

> > > > > dakhinayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi.Thus at around 32

century

> > > > > BCE uttarayan started when the sun was in Simha rashi. This is the

simple

> > > > > mathematics I can explain.

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > The rest of the fantastic assumtions, explanations and

calculations

> > > > > that dakhinayan occurred when the sun entered makar rashi in 32nd

century

> > > > > BCE, I leave to you, shri Bhattacharyaji to explain. So please go

ahead and

> > > > > explain whatever you have assumed, by challenging yourself. I will

surely

> > > > > read it. Do not challenge me to do such silly task.

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hari Malla

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > ________________

> > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

> >

> > http://www.flickr.com/gift/

> >

>

--- End forwarded message ---

December 23, 2009

HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla wrote:

Dear Jamnadasji,

Namsakar! In my knowlege, our timing is started from the solstices and or the

equinoxes.This means that it is necessary to start our year from either the

solstices meaning the shortest and the longest day or the equinoxes which is the

equal day and night.When we start our year or month we have to start from the

first of that month which is a sankranti in the solar sense. In the lunar sense

it is sukla pratipada or krishna pratipada.In case of krishna pratipada they

take up the Purnima one day before the krishna pratipada.

Now the average value of Purnima tithi matches with the sankranti of the solar

month and the average value of sukla pratipada matches with the 15\16th of the

solar month.

Another point we have to understand is that, our festivals are primarily related

to the lunar month or the starting tithi which say is Purnima.

Now purnima fluctutates over one month due to adhimas. The middle position of

purnima is sankranti.Thus purnima and sankranti are the shortest day or longest

day for celebration. Any other day is not acceptable to our culture since we

prefer to start our year and the month from the shortest day, longest day or

equal day and night.

If I am not clear kindly ask again.Thank you,

Regards,

Hari Malla

HinduCalendar , Bhupendra Jamnadas <b_jamnadas@> wrote:

>

> Namaste Hari Ji,

>

> What I am trying to say is that why is the shortest day of the year being

clubbed to Makar Sankranti. Why not have a seperate date in the calender itself

for the shortest day of the year? Even if it no longer Marak Sankranti and it is

Dhanu Sankranti during which the shortest day falls, it may be the solar month

of Dhanu that the shortest day falls, it is definitely not in the day of suns

ingress in the currently defined Dhanur Rasi. So I am not able to undertsand the

significance of sankranti that time and again the shortest day of the year needs

to be defined by a sankranti rather than on having its own precise date on the

calender.

>

> I looked up the calender of the last 3 years. Dec 21 2007 falls on Krishna

Paksha dvadasi, in 2008, it falls on Krishna Paksha Dasami, and this year, it

falls on Shukla paksha panchami. For each year, I have noticed that following

Dec 21st, the length of the day fluctuares for 2-4 days and thereafter begins to

increase. In either case, whether makara sankranti or dhanu sankranti is by no

means a good indicator of the shortest day of the year. Sankranti at best

indicates the rasi occupied by sun on the shortest day of the year. But it could

be on any day during this period. That is not a good measure of uttarayana. It

is another matter if it is not known how to calculate uttarayanaÂ date based on

mathematics or theoryÂ used currently for doing such calculations.

>

> Why do we use sankranti to mark uttarayana instead of having a distinctly

marked date in our vedic calender for uttarayana?

>

> Thanks,

> Bhupendra.

>

> ________________________________

> hari <harimalla@>

> HinduCalendar

> Fri, December 18, 2009 11:42:57 PM

> [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: The views of PNB, reply to SK Bhattacharyaji

from Mr. Wilkinson.

>

> Â

> parvasudhar2065, " hari " <harimalla@ ..> wrote:

>

> Dear Bhupendra Jamnadasji,

> Namaskar!

> <Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year,

what additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to

indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also

not going to be on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a

separate date on the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sankranti.>

>

> Makar sankranti does fall at the middle of the fluctuation zone of poush full

moon while it fluctuates by adhimas every third year. During this same period,

the actual uttarayan also remains within this same fullmoon zone for about 1175

to 2150 years, depending upon wether one takes only one side of the sankranti or

both sides.Poush full moon fluctuates on both sides of Makar sankranti 15\16

days before and after.

> Thus in Dharma shastra Poush purnima is taken as the start of Maagha snana

even today, indicating that Poush purnima is the tithi for uttarayan.But since

now adays, uttarayan does not start from Poush purnima zone, but from Mrigashira

purnima zone, it is high time we shifted our new uttarayan tithi as Mrigashira

purnima instead of Poush purnima. The new uttarayan sankranti thus becomes not

Makar sankranti but Dhanu sankranti.To keep up the spirit of SB Dixit who says

it is difficult to change the wordings of Dharma shastras, we better call the

new uttaryan sankranti also as Makar sankranti instead of the present name Dhanu

sankranti. Thus we have to call the present Dhanu sankranti as Makar sankranti

and the rpesent Mrigasira purnima as Poush purnima, in the sayan fashion, and

our coordinative calendar reform is faultlessly completed.

> Regards,

> Hari

>

> parvasudhar2065, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Bhupendra Jamnadasji,

> >

> > Thank you fo your interest in the issue.You know uttarayan is a changing

point every year with respect to the stars. But the stars like dhanistha or

makar sankranti are fixed points, which can be seen by the naked eyes. So it was

convenient to fix the sun in dhanistha position, as uttarayan for convenience of

observation during Vedanga jyotish days.It was also convenient to fix makar

sankranti as uttarayan during the early century of Vikram Sambat.Once it was

fixed, these points remained as nirayan uttarayan for a very long time say one

thousand to two thousand years.In fact it wsa a necessary convenience.

> > It was also costumary to fix separate uttarayan dates by lunar tithi.During

Vedanga jyotish they fixed Maagha sukla pratipada to represent uttarayan. And

during sidhant period they fixed Poush purnima as the lunar uttarayan.These

lunar dates fluctuated over a month due to adhimas. Thus as these tithis

fluctuated over a region, which contained the actual uttarayan they did not find

it necessary to shift the nirayn uttarayan with the sun fixed at certain star,

frequently.Thus you are quite right when you say that they were quite elaborate

and did not do so only for conveneience. I fully agree with you. But the method

they followed were not only convenient but also elaboraate and exactly

meaningful. I do agree with you.Only for people who did not understand like shri

Kaulji I used the word convenience, so he may understand some aspect at least.

> > Regards,

> > Hari Malla

> >

> > - In HinduCalendar, Bhupendra Jamnadas <b_jamnadas@ >

wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Hari mala Ji,

> > >

> > > Could not avoid noticing this exchange between you and AK Kaul Ji. What

you are suggesting here is that for convenience purpose only, the scriptures

have indicate 1st day Makar Sanskranti to mark the beginning of Uttarayana.

Since Makar sankranti itself is never on the same lunar date year after year,

what additional convenience is to be gained by taking Makar Sankranti to

indicate the start of Uttarayan? Since Uttarayan like makar sankranti is also

not going to be on the same lunar data year after year, might as well mark a

separate date on the lunar calender for uttarayan just like makar sanskranti. If

the scriptures are out convenience trying to bundle to 2 events in a single

calender event, it seems very dubious and indicates scriptures that were

doctored by people who somehow were trying to fit these events into their

methematical model and were having trouble syncing their calculations with

actual phenomena of the shortest day.

> > >

> > > Our scriptures are very elaborate, it does not make sense that just out of

convenience, these 2 events are bundled into one for the sake simpler calender.

There is something definitely wrong here.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Bhupendra.

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > hari <harimalla@>

> > > HinduCalendar

> > > Wed, December 16, 2009 1:48:30 AM

> > > [HinduCalendar] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet

> > >

> > > Ã‚

> > > Dear shri Kaulji,

> > > Namskar! I again find your patience is exhausted. I will not trouble you

much more. Nonetheless, I would like to request you to confirm one fact, so the

truth is clarified. Between makar sankranti and uttarayana let us find which is

the primary horse and which is the secondary cart.The question is what do the

shastras say? Does uttrayan start from makar sankranti or does makar sankranti

start from uttarayan? If the first part is true then makar sankranti is nirayan,

if the second part is true then makar sankranti is sayan.Kindly confirm from the

sidhantas and puranas which is true, whether it is uttarayan which starts from

makar sankranti or makar sankranti starts from uttarayan.

> > > With this test your confusion will surely vanish. Thank you for your last

patience.My point is uttarayan starts from makar sakranti,(refer: The six months

of uttaryna is from makar sankranti to Karkat sankranti-SS) which means that

makar sankranti is the land mark for the start of uttaryan, only for convenience

of daily use, although it may not be exactly true over a long time. This surely

proves that makar sankranti does not start from uttarayan.Kindly check it from

the shastras.Thank you.

> > > Regards,

> > > Hari Malla

> > >

> > > HinduCalendar, " Krishen " <jyotirved@ ..> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Shri Hari Mallaji,

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > On reading your post, I regret my decision of allowing the same on this

forum, since all you are interested in is propagating a calendar which you have

a mandate to do, instead of going as per any dharma shastra or purana or

sidhanta! If anyone points out those anachronisms to you, he is " blatantly

misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas " according to you.

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > A K Kaul

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar, " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,

> > > > > Namaskar!In continuation of my last mail, I add the following

comments.

> > > > > My previous statement:

> > > > > <This is the classic makar sankranti as uttarayan, along with the

shift of lunar uttrayan from the maaagha sukla pratipada of Vedanga jyotish to

Poush full moon.>

> > > > > Your comment in reply:

> > > > > <It is impossible to make either head or tail of your statements! How

many times do I have to remind you that Uttarayana is a geographical phenomenon

that is to be celebrated on the shortest day of the year? There is no lunar

uttarayana! It is up to you whether you call the Uttarayana day makar Sankranti

or Dhanu Sanrkanti or Kumbha Sankranti or no Sankranit at all, though all the

sidhantas and Puranas call Uttarayana day as Makar Sankranti! If you do not want

to believe in the Puranas or sidhantas, including the Surya Sidhanta of

Varahamihra, I cannot compel you to do so. >

> > > > >

> > > > > You are blatantly misinterpreting the puranas and the sidhantas.The

puranas and sidhantas do not call uttarayan as makar sankranti, but celebrate

uttarayan by makar sankranti by equating one with the other.This equation is the

vedic way of coordinating the tropical and sidereal concepts.

> > > > > Uttarayan is a geographical event which occurs on the shortest day but