Guest guest Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, Namaskar! Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees with giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an essay or a book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful. Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya. The meaning of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are definition of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing concepts from them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask experts who know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures. These words could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the ayans were detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of the essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of testing my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and let other members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from 1 to 4 are all concerned with the definiton of the words. <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an alternative to the lunar months " > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this. <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not much earlier than 285 AD " > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof since Meesh sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason. <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the names of the solar months itself " > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year of 366 days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them relating them with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months coming along with the rashis? <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory " .> The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent concept to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are naturally not moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit with the seasons artificially. <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without a sankranti " .> Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to some conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current practise of panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The only mistake is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits. He should also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of the luanr tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the nakshyatras. Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of discussion. We are here to find the truth. Regards, Hari Malla HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the shastras, giving > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you is: > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand " > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly > are, in practical sense " > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied " > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an > alternative to the lunar months " > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not > much earlier than 285 AD " > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of the > names of the solar months itself " > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope > Gregory " . > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime now but > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you have said > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you are not > stisfied with my answers " . > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are quite > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to bamboozle a > common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, which is > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the throat of > Hindu community! > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive size > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against the > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size that > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the ingredients > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to to > the same. > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who knows! If > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " etc. > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific and as > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in convicning > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " like > that of Lahiri's! > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to answeer to > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different understanding of the > words we use and also the concepts. > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is tropical or > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I use the > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But strictly > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at the > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not moving > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical sense. > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan (not > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the rashis and > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, sidereal or > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along with the > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is known as > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the nakshaytras can > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a way of > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own convenience, since > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton of the > words and the concepts. > > Now going point by point: > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both sayana > and > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is > applicable > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied to > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they truly are, > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the circle of > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also become > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community, and > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are not > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar months. > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by whom? > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not much > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at the > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of the > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. This is > all I can say. > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and by > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months are 30 > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the names of the > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came along > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of Vedanga > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given only > second priority. > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are nirayan or > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is recent. > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl. give > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate manner > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus non > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar months and > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the sankrantis > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are the > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without a > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from the > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the sidereal > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to adhimases > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar month to > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar sankranti as > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very very > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical uttarayan > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga jyotish as > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is non > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and tropical > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the vedanga > jyotish period. > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with my > answers.Thank you. > > Hari Malla > > > > HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it always has > been > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.> > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of solar > months > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham which > includes > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were no > Mesha, > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both sayana > and > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is > applicable > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community, and > by > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by whom? > Pl. > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and by > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl. give > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, quoting > the exact > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English > translation, > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, as is > your > > > habit. > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, shri Darshaney lokeshji and shri A Sharmaji, > > > Namaskar! > > > <It is only through nakshatras, Junction Stars, that we are able to > say that > > > the > > > Vedanga Jyotisha is a work of about 1400 BCE, because that work > refers to > > > the > > > New Moon falling in Dhanishtha nakshatra, which coincided with > Uttarayana > > > i.e. > > > Winter Solstice! That could have happened only in around 1400 BCE> > > > You are taking things only from your modern angle of deciphering the > date of > > > vedanga jyotish. But that was not the intention of Lagadh when he > refers to > > > uttarayan occurring when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha > nakshyatra. > > > He > > > mentioned that, not to make it easy for you to decipher the > historical date( > > > although it has definitely seved that purpose for you), but to > facilitate > > > the > > > people of his time to refer to uttarayan as the sun and moon > position. The > > > sun > > > position was to be at Dhanistha and moon positon was maagha sukla > pratipada > > > for > > > the celebration of 'uttarayan' event and was not celebrated at the > actual > > > uttarayan date.As long as uttarayan remained within the maagha sukla > > > pratipada > > > fluctuation zone,it very well served the purpose of representing > uttarayan > > > date, > > > for civil purpose of celebration.The problem came only after 1700 > years, > > > when > > > maagha sukla pratipada no more went both before and after the > uttarayan > > > date. > > > During the whole period of 1700 years,(please note this point,) > 'maagha > > > sukla > > > pratipada went both before and after both the nirayan uttaryan > celebraton of > > > 'sun in dhanistha position' as well as the actual tropical uttarayan > dates, > > > which although kept on shifting year after year, very very slowwwly. > In > > > other > > > words, maagha sukla pratipada coordinated the sayan and the nirayn > dates for > > > 1700 years and thus did not need any change in the nirayan position > of the > > > 'sun > > > in dhanistha' as the nirayan uttrayan date.Can you please understand > the > > > meaning > > > of this statement that Vedanga jyotish remained nirayan for 1700 > years both > > > from > > > the solar and the lunar view points! Do comment if you have any > doubt in > > > this. > > > > > > <All these details about calculating tithi, nakshatra, ritus and > > > months-----but not rashis and planets!------have been given by > Acharya > > > Lagadha > > > in his Vedanga Jyotisham in around 1400 BCE,> > > > > > > Again you are forgetting the main issue and getting carried away by > > > secondary > > > issues. Rashis only fixed the sun more precisely by virtue of > supplying the > > > sankrantis. It in no way contradicted the nakshyatra postion of the > sun, but > > > supported it. Wether you say sun at dhanistha or sun at makar > sankranti, > > > conceptually it is the same. Both are the 'nirayan or stellar' > positions of > > > the > > > sun.Please understand this too. > > > Yes,the planets were a new concept added which had no scientific or > > > religious > > > bearing , but not the rashis. The rashis helped in fixing the sun at > the 12 > > > sankrantis. This in fact was a very good idea since the sun is > actually a > > > fixed > > > object, scientifically speaking.We should applaude this > improvement,because > > > this > > > helped to set the adhimas in a more accurate way, than of the > Vedanga > > > jyotish. > > > Thus after 1700 years of fruitful existence, vedanga jyotish lost > its > > > importance and accuracy to set the correct uttaryan postion. It was > high > > > time > > > to set a new nirayan uttaryan. This was done by shifting the new > nirayan > > > uttarayan at makar sankranti, seven padas backwards. > > > This new nirayan uttaryan set during the Sidhanta Jyotish also lost > its > > > value > > > after the 15th century, since the new tithi of poush purnima as the > new > > > uttaryan > > > tithi, also lost contact with the moving tropical uttarayan, which > moves > > > with > > > the precesion of earth axis. (Do not tell me you do not know what > precession > > > is!) Then it was time to shift the new nirayan uttaryan to dhanu > sankranti. > > > But > > > since it has not been done till date, let us fix it now. The new > nirayan > > > uttaryan as dhanu sankranti will have its value effective further > for 1500 > > > years > > > in the future. But while we do our calendar reform, let us not > change our > > > traditional coordinative system which is mainly based on tithi which > > > coordinates > > > both the sayan and the nirayan values of celebration of the event of > > > uttarayan. > > > The importance of the nirayan value of uttrayan is that it is set at > the > > > fixed > > > star position and also it falls at the mid point of the fluctuation > of the > > > uttaryan tithi, which is now to be mrigasira purnima. Let us stick > to our > > > Vedic > > > coordinative system as it always has been coordinative of both the > sayan and > > > the nirayan systems. It is time both shri Darshaney lokeshji and > shri Kaulji > > > do > > > not pretend ignorance of this Vedic concept of coordination, since > the sixth > > > sloka of Yajur Vedanga jyotish makes it quite clear.Thank you. > > > Regards, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > Correct dates of festivals for 2010-11 > > > > > > , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri T. K. P. Ghopalji, > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > <Does this mail has any Scientific matter !?!?!? You are talking > much about > > > scientific astrology! But you give much importance to mails like > these.> > > > > > > The real Vamadevas were astronomers in the real sense of the word, > unlike > > > their modern namesakes, for whom the Vedas have nothing else to do > except to > > > decipher the janmapatri of every Tom, Dick and Harry! > > > > > > Hindu festivals are a part of Vedic rituals and are based on > seasons, > > > seasonal months---both solar and lunar---tithis and nakshatras! > > > > > > Seasons are because of the phenomenon of seasons, about which you > must have > > > read in primary school level geography books. Seasonal months---both > lunar > > > and solar---are two months of each season, as per the Vedic lore. > They are > > > all thus geographic phenomenon. > > > > > > Tithis are the distance between the Moon and the sun, divided by > twelve. > > > These are known as lunar phases, since purnima (Full Moon), Amanta > (New > > > Moon) etc. are all lunar phases from zero to thirty and are as such > a part > > > of astronomy! > > > > > > It is only through nakshatras, Junction Stars, that we are able to > say that > > > the Vedanga Jyotisha is a work of about 1400 BCE, because that work > refers > > > to the New Moon falling in Dhanishtha nakshatra, which coincided > with > > > Uttarayana i.e. Winter Solstice! That could have happened only in > around > > > 1400 BCE. We are also able to decide the dates of Yajur Veda as > around > > > 3000 BCE, because it talks of " Krittikas not swerving from the > East " . There > > > are similar other instances! > > > > > > All these details about calculating tithi, nakshatra, ritus and > > > months-----but not rashis and planets!------have been given by > Acharya > > > Lagadha in his Vedanga Jyotisham in around 1400 BCE, but maybe > " Vedic > > > jyotishis " like you are unaware of the same, because, according to > them > > > " Vedanga Jyoitisha " means nothing but predicting as to who will have > a > > > heart attack on what date or who will be the minister in which year > of his > > > life, as per the sade sati or kalasapra dosha etc.etc. that may be > running > > > in his/her horoscope! And blissfully, jyotishis like you are unaware > of the > > > fact that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, whether so called sayana or so > called > > > nirayana, are imaginary twelve division of a still imaginary circle > known > > > as ecliptic! > > > > > > And Mangal is the owner of the first imaginary division, Venus the > owner of > > > second imaginary division and so on! And no wonder, all these > " properties " > > > are " benami transactions " , but even then they have been " registered " > by > > > " almighty jyotishis " in the names of inanimate wandering bodies > known as > > > planets! > > > > > > And they fight tooth and nail to prove all that phantasmagoria as > scientific > > > and decry streamlining the Hindu calendar as unscientific! > > > > > > Vinaasha kaale vipareeta budhih! > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > </post?postID=9WRcLzph1w_QQc3t\ > ycGP > > > > QFRIYG81MWtK9Wd2taPm9LPBptYYh0d7AuQuqP7_45MWjFZeV3hEIGvcodJ3BKfwlytp__mq\ > ne5l > > > jGmN> , Ghopal TKP <astrogopalji@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Attn:Mr.Sanat > > > > > > Does this mail has any Scientific matter !?!?!? > > > > > > Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:10 am Show Message Option -- View Source Use Fixed Width Font Unwrap Lines -- " hari " <harimalla harimalla... Offline Send Email Delete Message #6857 of 6857 < Prev | Next > Expand Messages Author Sort by Date Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 Shri Hari Malla ji, Jai Shri Ram! <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it always has been coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan... jyotirved a_krishen Mar 16, 2010 1:13 pm Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 Dear Shri Kaulji, Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to answeer to them equally carefully.We do seem to have different understanding of the... hari harimalla... Mar 17, 2010 8:01 am Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 Shri Hari Malla ji, Jai Shri Ram! I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the shastras, giving the original mantras and their meanings, but all I... Krishen a_krishen Mar 18, 2010 9:31 am Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 Dear shri Kaulji, Please correct the following in my previous mail. <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an alternative to the... hari harimalla... Mar 19, 2010 6:19 pm Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, Namaskar! Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees with giving reasons for the... hari harimalla... Mar 19, 2010 6:19 pm < Prev Topic | Next Topic > Message # Search: Advanced Start Topic SPONSOR RESULTS QQQ Trader - 2 to 4 Signals Per Month www.stockbarometer.com - Expert market timing, forecasting, Rydex trading, options and ETF. Low priced penny, gold and dividend stock investments. Get newsletter through e-mail. Learn about QQQ trading system. The Essentials of Spiritual Development www.soulprogress.com - Spiritual development is pursued in many ways, but its essentials are universal. Our detailed descriptions of the stages of Spiritual evolution are helpful to practitioners of all paths. 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