Fwd (Hinducalendar):Correct date of festivals!

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Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

 

Dear friends,

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his view

point. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic

calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the Vedas,

Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as per

his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact dates " , " in

my view " and so on!

 

Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely without

contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not to

allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum in future.

 

Jai Shri Ram!

 

Moderator

 

 

HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla wrote:

 

Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji,

Namaskar!

Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees

with

giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an

essay or a

book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful.

Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya. The

meaning

of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are

definition

of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing

concepts from

them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask

experts who

know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures.

These words

could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the

ayans were

detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of

the

essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of

testing

my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and let

other

members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from 1

to 4

are all concerned with the definiton of the words.

 

<5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

alternative to the lunar months " >

the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this.

 

<6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

much

earlier than 285 AD " >

Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof

since Meesh

sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason.

 

<7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the

names of the solar months itself " >

Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year of

366

days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them

relating them

with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months

coming along

with the rashis?

 

<8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

Gregory " .>

The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent

concept

to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are

naturally not

moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit

with the

seasons artificially.

 

<9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

lunar

months without a sankranti " .>

 

Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'.

 

My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to

some

conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current

practise of

panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The only

mistake

is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits.

He should

also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of the

luanr

tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the

nakshyatras.

Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of

discussion. We

are here to find the truth.

Regards,

Hari Malla

 

 

HinduCalendar

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " Krishen "

<jyotirved wrote:

>

>

>

> Shri Hari Malla ji,

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the shastras,

giving

> the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you is:

>

> 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand "

>

> 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the stars

truly

> are, in practical sense "

>

> 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'

> 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied "

>

> 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> alternative to the lunar months "

>

> 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> much earlier than 285 AD "

>

> 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of the

> names of the solar months itself "

>

> 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> Gregory " .

>

> 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> lunar months without a sankranti " .

>

> We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime now

but

> have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you have

said

> in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you are

not

> stisfied with my answers " .

>

> Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are quite

> satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to bamboozle

a

> common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, which is

> neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the throat of

> Hindu community!

>

> There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive size

> vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against the

> same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size that

> would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have

> designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the ingredients

> of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to to

> the same.

>

> Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who knows! If

> Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also

> jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " etc.

> etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific and as

> per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in convicning

> some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " like

> that of Lahiri's!

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

>

> HinduCalendar

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " hari "

<harimalla@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Shri Kaulji,

> > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to answeer to

> them equally carefully.We do seem to have different understanding of

the

> words we use and also the concepts.

> > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is tropical

or

> shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I use

the

> word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But

strictly

> speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at the

> background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not moving

> with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical sense.

> > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

(not

> moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the rashis and

> the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, sidereal or

> nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along with

the

> seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is known as

> the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the nakshaytras

can

> be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a way of

> looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own convenience,

since

> they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton of the

> words and the concepts.

> > Now going point by point:

> > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both sayana

> and

> > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> applicable

> > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.>

> >

> > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied to

> nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they truly are,

> then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the circle of

> stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also become

> sayan or moving with the Ayan.

> >

> > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

and

> by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.>

> >

> > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are not

> mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar months.

> >

> > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

whom?

> Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> >

> > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

much

> earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at the

> vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of the

> rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. This

is

> all I can say.

> >

> >

> > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and by

> whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> >

> > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months are 30

> degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction

> of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the names of

the

> solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came along

> with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of Vedanga

> jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given only

> second priority.

> >

> > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> >

> > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are nirayan or

> sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is recent.

> Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory.

> >

> > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl. give

> pramanas in support of your answers.>

> >

> > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate manner

> in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus non

> seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar months

and

> seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the

sankrantis

> to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a

> precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are the

> lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without a

> sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from the

> names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the

> nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the

sidereal

> lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to adhimases

> over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar month

to

> touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar sankranti

as

> well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very very

> long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical

uttarayan

> and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga jyotish

as

> well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is non

> vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and

tropical

> dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the vedanga

> jyotish period.

> > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with my

> answers.Thank you.

> > Hari Malla

> >

> > HinduCalendar

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " jyotirved "

jyotirved@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it always has

> been

> > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.>

> > >

> > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of solar

> months

> > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham which

> includes

> > > Yajur Jyotisham

> > >

> > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were no

> Mesha,

> > > Vrisha etc. rashis then.

> > >

> > > It gives rise to a few questions:

> > >

> > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both

sayana

> and

> > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> applicable

> > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.

> > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

and

> by

> > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.

> > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

whom?

> Pl.

> > > give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and

by

> > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl.

give

> > > pramanas in support of your answers.

> > >

> > > Pl. do reply every point individually.

> > >

> > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, quoting

> the exact

> > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English

> translation,

> > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, as is

> your

> > > habit.

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > A K Kaul