Fwd (Hinducalendar):Correct date of festivals!

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Pathmarajahji,

Namaskar!

<For example, till yesterday, Shri Hari Malla was saying that Sayana is Brahma

and Nirayana is Vishnu and that is why we must not use Sayana, but now all of a

sudden it has dawned on him that Sayana is only a Gregorian creation! In other

words, Brahmaji did not exist prior to 15th century AD!>

My claim that sayan or tropical is Brahma and nirayan or sidereal is Vishnu

remains as such.

'That is why we should not use sayan' is also valid. This is why we have never

used sayan in the practical sense in our culture. But since a century or two

back some people like AK Kaul have started promoting the idea of sayan system.

This word is used not only in the seasonal or tropical sense but also in the

sense of the circle of the stars rotating with the seasons or the tropics like

Makar sankranti (which although is star position), moving with the shortest day

by precession.In this concept of some modern chauvinists in our culture, I say,

they borrowed the idea from Pope Gregory. They want to do away with the idea of

nirayan sun and moon positions.The idea that both tropical and sidereal concepts

of the solstices and the equinoxes, should coesxitst has always been the vedic

concept,even since the Vedanga jyotish. They misinterpret the coordinative vedic

expression, to suit their fancy, that only the sayan concept (stars rotating

with the seasons) is valid.

 

<Then again, he had been shouting from housetops that there are no solar months

in the Vedanga Jyotisham and the twelve adityas that have been referred to in

the Vedas are twelve galactic centres, but now that his ignorance was exposed,

it dawned on him that there are solar months also in the VJ and those also in

the form of nirayana Mesha etc. Rashis! >

 

The basic months in the vedas are always synodic lunar months.The solar months

in the vedanga jyotish are secndary months and even the names are not mentioned.

The solar year although starting at the nirayan winter solstice or sun in

dhanistha position, is quite approximate being of 366 days, so that during the

five year yuga, it was already out by nearly 4 days. The 12 adityas referred in

the vedas are the centers of the lunar months. They have no conection with the

solar months itself, but only that the lunar months must include a solar

sankranti within it.This is as per the defition of Sidhanta Jyotish.During the

VJ there were only two solar sankrantis for the two solstices, the sun at

dhanistha and Aslesha positions and thus the adhimases were held only at two

points, the winter and the summer solstices.

The accurate solar months were introduced only with the advent of the rashis.We

are still using these same solar months tied to the rashis. The solar months of

Vedang jyotish were very rough. The Adityas were never equated with the solar

months either during the VJ or during the Sidhanta periods.

 

<Thus Uttarayana was the shortest day of the year as per that work of around

1400 BCE. It was so in 10000 BCE and will be so in 12030 AD. As such, the main

principles/definitions of the Vedanga Jyotisham calendar for Uttarayana etc. are

the same as those of modern astronomy, even if the methodology for calculating

that Uttarayana day as per the VJ is not as accurate as modern astronomy>

 

The main principal for definition of uttarayan may be the same in the vedanga

jyotish and modern astronomy as the 'shortest day'. But the celebration of

'uttrayan' was never on the shortest day. By the lunar tithi, during the Vedanga

jyotish, it was on maagha sukla pratipada and during the Sidhanta Jyotish it was

shifted to poush purnima. By the solar sankranti, during VJ it was celebrated at

the sun in dhanistha position and during the Sidhanta period it was shifted to

makar sankranti. The shortest day was always a rough reference during all our

cultural history. The celebrations were made on specially marked days like

pratipada, purnima or sankranti.

All these points are to be noted by shri Kaulji.

 

Regards,

Hari Malla

 

HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote:

>

>

Cc: ' '; ' ';

> 'usbrahmins '; 'akandabaratam ';

> 'vedic_research_institute ';

> 'Vedic Astrology-hyderabad '; 'asthikasamaj ';

> 'mukti_marg '

> Correcct dates of festivals in 2010-11

>

>

>

> Shri Pathmarajah Nagalingamji,

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> Many thanks for the New Year wishes, which started actually today, (March

> 21, 2010) since the exact Vishuva was at 11-03 pm on March 20, 2010.

>

> The word Saka calendar that you have used with the new year greetings is

> actually a misnomer! It is as per the real Vedic calendar that a solar New

> Year can start on any of the four cardinal days, and for the last more than

> two thousand years, much before the advent of Shakas into India, it started

> with the day of Vernal Equinox, whereas in the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha,

> it was the Uttarayana Day that was the start of a solar New Year.

>

> In fact, we do not find any references to Shaka year in any astronomical

> work prior to Varahamihira's works which are of about sixth century AD!

> That is why I have stopped using the word Shaka calendar in the list of

> festivals that I have circulated!

>

> Now coming to your second point, " ........ common seasonal sense, a lunisolar

> calendar in which leap years coincide with those of the Gregorian calendar " .

>

> Those are exactly the parameters of a Vedic calendar as per the Vedanga

> Jyotisham! Both solar as well as synodic months have to be pegged to

> seasons! There cannot be any leap year as per the VJ.

>

> <In formulating a new Hindu calendar, we do not need to base it on any

> pramana>

>

> That is the real anarchy and that is why we have Surya Siddhanta calendar,

> Grahalaghava calendar, Lahiri calendar, Ramana calendar and now even a Hari

> Malla calendar today! All those calendars are without pramanas and just as

> per the " thinking (read whims and fancies!) " of the respective promoters!

> The Vernal Equinox of 285AD against the star Spica (Lahiri's whims and

> fancies!) or 390 AD being the Mesharambha bindu (B. V. Rman's whims and

> fancies) or the Ayanamsha advancing and then retreating by fifteen degrees

> (Hari Malla whims and fancies) and so on! All these wh9imsical calendars

> are based on personal interests and idiosyncrasies and to justify them, they

> quote all the prmanas upside down! For example, till yesterday, Shri Hari

> Malla was saying that Sayana is Brahma and Nirayana is Vishnu and that is

> why we must not use Sayana, but now all of a sudden it has dawned on him

> that Sayana is only a Gregorian creation! In other words, Brahmaji did not

> exist prior to 15th century AD!

>

> Then again, he had been shouting from housetops that there are no solar

> months in the Vedanga Jyotisham and the twelve adityas that have been

> referred to in the Vedas are twelve galactic centres, but now that his

> ignorance was exposed, it dawned on him that there are solar months also in

> the VJ and those also in the form of nirayana Mesha etc. Rashis! As such,

> if you go on wishing away the pramanas, all you are going to have is

> hundreds of calendars at your hands instead of a Vedic or even Hindu

> calendar! And that anarchy will be because of vested interests instead of

> any other reasons!

>

> <All the pramanas are inaccurate or faulty.>

>

> We have to go by the letter of the parameters/pramana, which are as sound

> today as they were when they were formulated! E.g., as per the seventh

> Mantra of the VJ, days start increasing from the Uttarayana Day, which was

> the starting day of a new solar year then. Thus Uttarayana was the shortest

> day of the year as per that work of around 1400 BCE. It was so in 10000

> BCE and will be so in 12030 AD. As such, the main principles/definitions of

> the Vedanga Jyotisham calendar for Uttarayana etc. are the same as those of

> modern astronomy, even if the methodology for calculating that Uttarayana

> day as per the VJ is not as accurate as modern astronomy!

>

> BTW, your greetings for the new solar year that you have extended are also

> as per " pramanas " (instead of anarchy!) since the day of Vasanta Sampata

> (Vernal Equinox of Marhc 21, 2010) is known as Mesha Samkranti as per all

> the Puranas---when the day is equal to night; the day of Autumn Equinox is

> known as Tula Samkranti as per those very Puranas---when again the day is

> equal to night---- and Dakshinayana Day known as Karkata Samkranti (when the

> day is the longest in northern hemispheres) and Winter Solstice i.e.

> Uttarayana, known as Makra Samkranti ( the actual PONGAL in

> Tamilnadu!)---when the day is the shortest in the southern hemisphere-----

> are said to be the Samkrantis when one gains immense punya by performing

> japa and meditation etc. or having baths in the Ganges etc. on those days.

> These four samkantis are said to be thousand fold more fruitful than the

> ordinary samkratis (and that also so called sayana, since Messrs Lahiri,

> Ramana and Harimala etc. etc.---nirayanawalas---- did not exist even in an

> embryonic stage then!). And these pramanas do have a very solid

> geographical/astronomical backing as will be evident from BVB6 and 1999b

> etc. papers.

>

> That is why I go on repeating that our seers were more scientific than all

> the Lahiris and Ramans and Harimalas etc. etc. put together!

>

> Jai Shri Ram!

>

> AKK

>

>

> HinduCalendar , " Pathmarajah " <beastmy@> wrote:

>

> Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

>

>

>

> Happy New Year 1932 (Saka calendar)!

>

> In formulating a new Hindu calendar, we do not need to base it on any

> pramana, but simply on modern astronomy and common seasonal sense, a

> lunisolar calendar in which leap years coincide with those of the

> Gregorian calendar

>

> All the pramanas are inaccurate or faulty.

>

> Can we please get on with it?

>

> Pathma

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

--- In

> <HinduCalendar/post?postID=c8zJWcAgMy8Yb0Qdcbv

> PYr_OWgIbGx7-AbZkcUjEwwnsc43ztXUKEM3817cL9Sl5p8j-OtNSgTDS5P1r-eQclBA7w-uf0Bq

> W> HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear friends,

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his view

> > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic

> > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the

> Vedas,

> > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as per

> > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact dates " ,

> " in

> > my view " and so on!

> >

> > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely

> without

> > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not to

> > allow any of his posts on the forum in future.

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > Moderator

> >

> >

> > --- In

> <HinduCalendar/post?postID=c8zJWcAgMy8Yb0Qdcbv

> PYr_OWgIbGx7-AbZkcUjEwwnsc43ztXUKEM3817cL9Sl5p8j-OtNSgTDS5P1r-eQclBA7w-uf0Bq

> W> HinduCalendar , " hari " harimalla@ wrote:

> >

> > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji,

> > Namaskar!

> > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees

> > with

> > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an

> > essay or a

> > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful.

> > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya.

> The

> > meaning

> > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are

> > definition

> > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing

> > concepts from

> > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask

> > experts who

> > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures.

> > These words

> > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the

> > ayans were

> > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of

> > the

> > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of

> > testing

> > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and

> let

> > other

> > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from

> 1

> > to 4

> > are all concerned with the definiton of the words.

> >

> > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as

> an

> > alternative to the lunar months " >

> > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this.

> >

> > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > much

> > earlier than 285 AD " >

> > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof

> > since Meesh

> > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason.

> >

> > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the

> > names of the solar months itself " >

> > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year

> of

> > 366

> > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them

> > relating them

> > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months

> > coming along

> > with the rashis?

> >

> > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > Gregory " .>

> > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent

> > concept

> > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are

> > naturally not

> > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit

> > with the

> > seasons artificially.

> >

> > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > lunar

> > months without a sankranti " .>

> >

> > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'.

> >

> > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to

> > some

> > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current

> > practise of

> > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The

> only

> > mistake

> > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits.

> > He should

> > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of

> the

> > luanr

> > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the

> > nakshyatras.

> > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of

> > discussion. We

> > are here to find the truth.

> > Regards,

> > Hari Malla

> >

> >

>

 

 

, " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote:

>

> WOW! I am getting seriously envious of Avatar Kaul_dada! He bagged TWO GURUS

in just a couple of days!

>

> But Wait! Maybe not! One of the two self-imposing Gurus just gave up on him!

Now he has just one choice to make! Or none really!

>

> But seriously folks, I do not think Kaul_jee is looking for any Gurus [bRAVO!]

but just some answers!

>

> All he has are questions!

>

> Rohiniranjan

>

>

>

> , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear shri Kaulji,

> > It is certain you will never get any further in your efforts for calendar

reform. The reason is you never listen to others's opinion.My advise is you stop

wasting other people's time by pretending to be serious about calendar reform,

when you are not.If you are serious please listen to what others say and

interact by giving your own opinion too. But you must first improve your

vocabulary and know the meanings of the words used in calendar systems like

sayan and nirayan. But I am afraid you do not want to do that either.

> > So you will get no further with such attitude.

> > good bye,

> > Hari Malla

> > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear friends,

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his view

> > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic

> > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the Vedas,

> > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as per

> > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact dates " , " in

> > > my view " and so on!

> > >

> > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely without

> > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not to

> > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future.

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > Moderator

> > >

> > >

> > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji,

> > > Namaskar!

> > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees

> > > with

> > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an

> > > essay or a

> > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful.

> > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya. The

> > > meaning

> > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are

> > > definition

> > > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing

> > > concepts from

> > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask

> > > experts who

> > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures.

> > > These words

> > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the

> > > ayans were

> > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of

> > > the

> > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of

> > > testing

> > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and let

> > > other

> > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from 1

> > > to 4

> > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words.

> > >

> > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > alternative to the lunar months " >

> > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this.

> > >

> > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > much

> > > earlier than 285 AD " >

> > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof

> > > since Meesh

> > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason.

> > >

> > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the

> > > names of the solar months itself " >

> > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year of

> > > 366

> > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them

> > > relating them

> > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months

> > > coming along

> > > with the rashis?

> > >

> > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > Gregory " .>

> > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent

> > > concept

> > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are

> > > naturally not

> > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit

> > > with the

> > > seasons artificially.

> > >

> > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > lunar

> > > months without a sankranti " .>

> > >

> > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'.

> > >

> > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to

> > > some

> > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current

> > > practise of

> > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The only

> > > mistake

> > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits.

> > > He should

> > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of the

> > > luanr

> > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the

> > > nakshyatras.

> > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of

> > > discussion. We

> > > are here to find the truth.

> > > Regards,

> > > Hari Malla

> > >

> > >

> > > HinduCalendar

> > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " Krishen "

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the shastras,

> > > giving

> > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you is:

> > > >

> > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand "

> > > >

> > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the stars

> > > truly

> > > > are, in practical sense "

> > > >

> > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'

> > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied "

> > > >

> > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > alternative to the lunar months "

> > > >

> > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > much earlier than 285 AD "

> > > >

> > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of the

> > > > names of the solar months itself "

> > > >

> > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > > Gregory " .

> > > >

> > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > > lunar months without a sankranti " .

> > > >

> > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime now

> > > but

> > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you have

> > > said

> > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you are

> > > not

> > > > stisfied with my answers " .

> > > >

> > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are quite

> > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to bamboozle

> > > a

> > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, which is

> > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the throat of

> > > > Hindu community!

> > > >

> > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive size

> > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against the

> > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size that

> > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have

> > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the ingredients

> > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to to

> > > > the same.

> > > >

> > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who knows! If

> > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also

> > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " etc.

> > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific and as

> > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in convicning

> > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " like

> > > > that of Lahiri's!

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar

> > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " hari "

> > > <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji,

> > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to answeer to

> > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different understanding of

> > > the

> > > > words we use and also the concepts.

> > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is tropical

> > > or

> > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I use

> > > the

> > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But

> > > strictly

> > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at the

> > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not moving

> > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical sense.

> > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > (not

> > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the rashis and

> > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, sidereal or

> > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along with

> > > the

> > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is known as

> > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the nakshaytras

> > > can

> > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a way of

> > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own convenience,

> > > since

> > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton of the

> > > > words and the concepts.

> > > > > Now going point by point:

> > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both sayana

> > > > and

> > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > applicable

> > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.>

> > > > >

> > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied to

> > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they truly are,

> > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the circle of

> > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also become

> > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan.

> > > > >

> > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > and

> > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are not

> > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar months.

> > > > >

> > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > whom?

> > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > much

> > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at the

> > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of the

> > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. This

> > > is

> > > > all I can say.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and by

> > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months are 30

> > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction

> > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the names of

> > > the

> > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came along

> > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of Vedanga

> > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given only

> > > > second priority.

> > > > >

> > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are nirayan or

> > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is recent.

> > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory.

> > > > >

> > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl. give

> > > > pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate manner

> > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus non

> > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar months

> > > and

> > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the

> > > sankrantis

> > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a

> > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are the

> > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without a

> > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from the

> > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the

> > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the

> > > sidereal

> > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to adhimases

> > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar month

> > > to

> > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar sankranti

> > > as

> > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very very

> > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical

> > > uttarayan

> > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga jyotish

> > > as

> > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is non

> > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and

> > > tropical

> > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the vedanga

> > > > jyotish period.

> > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with my

> > > > answers.Thank you.

> > > > > Hari Malla

> > > > >

> > > > > HinduCalendar

> > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " jyotirved "

> > > jyotirved@ wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it always has

> > > > been

> > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of solar

> > > > months

> > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham which

> > > > includes

> > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham

> > > > > >

> > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were no

> > > > Mesha,

> > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both

> > > sayana

> > > > and

> > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > applicable

> > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.

> > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > and

> > > > by

> > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.

> > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > whom?

> > > > Pl.

> > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and

> > > by

> > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl.

> > > give

> > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, quoting

> > > > the exact

> > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English

> > > > translation,

> > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, as is

> > > > your

> > > > > > habit.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A K Kaul

> > >

> >

> >

> > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > >

> > > Dear friends,

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his view

> > > point. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic

> > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the Vedas,

> > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as per

> > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact dates " , " in

> > > my view " and so on!

> > >

> > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely without

> > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not to

> > > allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum in future.

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > Moderator

> > >

> > >

> > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji,

> > > Namaskar!

> > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees

> > > with

> > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an

> > > essay or a

> > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful.

> > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya. The

> > > meaning

> > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are

> > > definition

> > > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing

> > > concepts from

> > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask

> > > experts who

> > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures.

> > > These words

> > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the

> > > ayans were

> > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of

> > > the

> > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of

> > > testing

> > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and let

> > > other

> > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from 1

> > > to 4

> > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words.

> > >

> > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > alternative to the lunar months " >

> > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this.

> > >

> > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > much

> > > earlier than 285 AD " >

> > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof

> > > since Meesh

> > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason.

> > >

> > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the

> > > names of the solar months itself " >

> > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year of

> > > 366

> > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them

> > > relating them

> > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months

> > > coming along

> > > with the rashis?

> > >

> > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > Gregory " .>

> > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent

> > > concept

> > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are

> > > naturally not

> > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit

> > > with the

> > > seasons artificially.

> > >

> > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > lunar

> > > months without a sankranti " .>

> > >

> > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'.

> > >

> > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to

> > > some

> > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current

> > > practise of

> > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The only

> > > mistake

> > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits.

> > > He should

> > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of the

> > > luanr

> > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the

> > > nakshyatras.

> > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of

> > > discussion. We

> > > are here to find the truth.

> > > Regards,

> > > Hari Malla

> > >

> > >

> > > HinduCalendar

> > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " Krishen "

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the shastras,

> > > giving

> > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you is:

> > > >

> > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand "

> > > >

> > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the stars

> > > truly

> > > > are, in practical sense "

> > > >

> > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'

> > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied "

> > > >

> > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > alternative to the lunar months "

> > > >

> > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > much earlier than 285 AD "

> > > >

> > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of the

> > > > names of the solar months itself "

> > > >

> > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > > Gregory " .

> > > >

> > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > > lunar months without a sankranti " .

> > > >

> > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime now

> > > but

> > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you have

> > > said

> > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you are

> > > not

> > > > stisfied with my answers " .

> > > >

> > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are quite

> > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to bamboozle

> > > a

> > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, which is

> > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the throat of

> > > > Hindu community!

> > > >

> > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive size

> > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against the

> > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size that

> > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have

> > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the ingredients

> > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to to

> > > > the same.

> > > >

> > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who knows! If

> > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also

> > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " etc.

> > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific and as

> > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in convicning

> > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " like

> > > > that of Lahiri's!

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar

> > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " hari "

> > > <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji,

> > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to answeer to

> > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different understanding of

> > > the

> > > > words we use and also the concepts.

> > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is tropical

> > > or

> > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I use

> > > the

> > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But

> > > strictly

> > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at the

> > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not moving

> > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical sense.

> > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > (not

> > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the rashis and

> > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, sidereal or

> > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along with

> > > the

> > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is known as

> > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the nakshaytras

> > > can

> > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a way of

> > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own convenience,

> > > since

> > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton of the

> > > > words and the concepts.

> > > > > Now going point by point:

> > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both sayana

> > > > and

> > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > applicable

> > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.>

> > > > >

> > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied to

> > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they truly are,

> > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the circle of

> > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also become

> > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan.

> > > > >

> > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > and

> > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are not

> > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar months.

> > > > >

> > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > whom?

> > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > much

> > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at the

> > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of the

> > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. This

> > > is

> > > > all I can say.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and by

> > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months are 30

> > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction

> > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the names of

> > > the

> > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came along

> > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of Vedanga

> > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given only

> > > > second priority.

> > > > >

> > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are nirayan or

> > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is recent.

> > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory.

> > > > >

> > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl. give

> > > > pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate manner

> > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus non

> > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar months

> > > and

> > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the

> > > sankrantis

> > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a

> > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are the

> > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without a

> > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from the

> > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the

> > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the

> > > sidereal

> > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to adhimases

> > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar month

> > > to

> > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar sankranti

> > > as

> > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very very

> > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical

> > > uttarayan

> > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga jyotish

> > > as

> > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is non

> > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and

> > > tropical

> > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the vedanga

> > > > jyotish period.

> > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with my

> > > > answers.Thank you.

> > > > > Hari Malla

> > > > >

> > > > > HinduCalendar

> > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " jyotirved "

> > > jyotirved@ wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it always has

> > > > been

> > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of solar

> > > > months

> > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham which

> > > > includes

> > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham

> > > > > >

> > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were no

> > > > Mesha,

> > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both

> > > sayana

> > > > and

> > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > applicable

> > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.

> > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > and

> > > > by

> > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.

> > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > whom?

> > > > Pl.

> > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and

> > > by

> > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl.

> > > give

> > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, quoting

> > > > the exact

> > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English

> > > > translation,

> > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, as is

> > > > your

> > > > > > habit.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A K Kaul

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >