Fwd (Hinducalendar):Correct date of festivals!

[Guest guest]

Dear shri Rohiniranjanji,

May I have your sagacious opinion to the following mail.

thanks,

Hari Malla

, " hari " <harimalla wrote:

>

>

> Dear Shri Pathmarajahjia and Shri Kaulji,

> Namaskar!

> <For example, till yesterday, Shri Hari Malla was saying that Sayana is Brahma

> and Nirayana is Vishnu and that is why we must not use Sayana, but now all of

a

> sudden it has dawned on him that Sayana is only a Gregorian creation! In other

> words, Brahmaji did not exist prior to 15th century AD!>

> My claim that sayan or tropical is Brahma and nirayan or sidereal is Vishnu

> remains as such.

> 'That is why we should not use sayan' is also valid. This is why we have never

> used sayan in the practical sense in our culture. But since a century or two

> back some people like AK Kaul have started promoting the idea of sayan system.

> This word is used not only in the seasonal or tropical sense but also in the

> sense of the circle of the stars rotating with the seasons or the tropics like

> Makar sankranti (which although is star position), moving with the shortest

day

> by precession.In this concept of some modern chauvinists in our culture, I

say,

> they borrowed the idea from Pope Gregory. They want to do away with the idea

of

> nirayan sun and moon positions.The idea that both tropical and sidereal

concepts

> of the solstices and the equinoxes, should coesxitst has always been the vedic

> concept,even since the Vedanga jyotish. They misinterpret the coordinative

vedic

> expression, to suit their fancy, that only the sayan concept (stars rotating

> with the seasons) is valid.

>

> <Then again, he had been shouting from housetops that there are no solar

months

> in the Vedanga Jyotisham and the twelve adityas that have been referred to in

> the Vedas are twelve galactic centres, but now that his ignorance was exposed,

> it dawned on him that there are solar months also in the VJ and those also in

> the form of nirayana Mesha etc. Rashis! >

>

> The basic months in the vedas are always synodic lunar months.The solar months

> in the vedanga jyotish are secndary months and even the names are not

mentioned.

> The solar year although starting at the nirayan winter solstice or sun in

> dhanistha position, is quite approximate being of 366 days, so that during the

> five year yuga, it was already out by nearly 4 days. The 12 adityas referred

in

> the vedas are the centers of the lunar months. They have no conection with the

> solar months itself, but only that the lunar months must include a solar

> sankranti within it.This is as per the defition of Sidhanta Jyotish.During the

> VJ there were only two solar sankrantis for the two solstices, the sun at

> dhanistha and Aslesha positions and thus the adhimases were held only at two

> points, the winter and the summer solstices.

> The accurate solar months were introduced only with the advent of the

rashis.We

> are still using these same solar months tied to the rashis. The solar months

of

> Vedang jyotish were very rough. The Adityas were never equated with the solar

> months either during the VJ or during the Sidhanta periods.

>

> <Thus Uttarayana was the shortest day of the year as per that work of around

> 1400 BCE. It was so in 10000 BCE and will be so in 12030 AD. As such, the main

> principles/definitions of the Vedanga Jyotisham calendar for Uttarayana etc.

are

> the same as those of modern astronomy, even if the methodology for calculating

> that Uttarayana day as per the VJ is not as accurate as modern astronomy>

>

> The main principal for definition of uttarayan may be the same in the vedanga

> jyotish and modern astronomy as the 'shortest day'. But the celebration of

> 'uttrayan' was never on the shortest day. By the lunar tithi, during the

Vedanga

> jyotish, it was on maagha sukla pratipada and during the Sidhanta Jyotish it

was

> shifted to poush purnima. By the solar sankranti, during VJ it was celebrated

at

> the sun in dhanistha position and during the Sidhanta period it was shifted to

> makar sankranti. The shortest day was always a rough reference during all our

> cultural history. The celebrations were made on specially marked days like

> pratipada, purnima or sankranti.

> All these points are to be noted by shri Kaulji.

>

> Regards,

> Hari Malla

>

> HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Cc: ' '; ' ';

> > 'usbrahmins '; 'akandabaratam ';

> > 'vedic_research_institute ';

> > 'Vedic Astrology-hyderabad '; 'asthikasamaj ';

> > 'mukti_marg '

> > Correcct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> >

> >

> >

> > Shri Pathmarajah Nagalingamji,

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > Many thanks for the New Year wishes, which started actually today, (March

> > 21, 2010) since the exact Vishuva was at 11-03 pm on March 20, 2010.

> >

> > The word Saka calendar that you have used with the new year greetings is

> > actually a misnomer! It is as per the real Vedic calendar that a solar New

> > Year can start on any of the four cardinal days, and for the last more than

> > two thousand years, much before the advent of Shakas into India, it started

> > with the day of Vernal Equinox, whereas in the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha,

> > it was the Uttarayana Day that was the start of a solar New Year.

> >

> > In fact, we do not find any references to Shaka year in any astronomical

> > work prior to Varahamihira's works which are of about sixth century AD!

> > That is why I have stopped using the word Shaka calendar in the list of

> > festivals that I have circulated!

> >

> > Now coming to your second point, " ........ common seasonal sense, a lunisolar

> > calendar in which leap years coincide with those of the Gregorian calendar " .

> >

> > Those are exactly the parameters of a Vedic calendar as per the Vedanga

> > Jyotisham! Both solar as well as synodic months have to be pegged to

> > seasons! There cannot be any leap year as per the VJ.

> >

> > <In formulating a new Hindu calendar, we do not need to base it on any

> > pramana>

> >

> > That is the real anarchy and that is why we have Surya Siddhanta calendar,

> > Grahalaghava calendar, Lahiri calendar, Ramana calendar and now even a Hari

> > Malla calendar today! All those calendars are without pramanas and just as

> > per the " thinking (read whims and fancies!) " of the respective promoters!

> > The Vernal Equinox of 285AD against the star Spica (Lahiri's whims and

> > fancies!) or 390 AD being the Mesharambha bindu (B. V. Rman's whims and

> > fancies) or the Ayanamsha advancing and then retreating by fifteen degrees

> > (Hari Malla whims and fancies) and so on! All these wh9imsical calendars

> > are based on personal interests and idiosyncrasies and to justify them, they

> > quote all the prmanas upside down! For example, till yesterday, Shri Hari

> > Malla was saying that Sayana is Brahma and Nirayana is Vishnu and that is

> > why we must not use Sayana, but now all of a sudden it has dawned on him

> > that Sayana is only a Gregorian creation! In other words, Brahmaji did not

> > exist prior to 15th century AD!

> >

> > Then again, he had been shouting from housetops that there are no solar

> > months in the Vedanga Jyotisham and the twelve adityas that have been

> > referred to in the Vedas are twelve galactic centres, but now that his

> > ignorance was exposed, it dawned on him that there are solar months also in

> > the VJ and those also in the form of nirayana Mesha etc. Rashis! As such,

> > if you go on wishing away the pramanas, all you are going to have is

> > hundreds of calendars at your hands instead of a Vedic or even Hindu

> > calendar! And that anarchy will be because of vested interests instead of

> > any other reasons!

> >

> > <All the pramanas are inaccurate or faulty.>

> >

> > We have to go by the letter of the parameters/pramana, which are as sound

> > today as they were when they were formulated! E.g., as per the seventh

> > Mantra of the VJ, days start increasing from the Uttarayana Day, which was

> > the starting day of a new solar year then. Thus Uttarayana was the shortest

> > day of the year as per that work of around 1400 BCE. It was so in 10000

> > BCE and will be so in 12030 AD. As such, the main principles/definitions of

> > the Vedanga Jyotisham calendar for Uttarayana etc. are the same as those of

> > modern astronomy, even if the methodology for calculating that Uttarayana

> > day as per the VJ is not as accurate as modern astronomy!

> >

> > BTW, your greetings for the new solar year that you have extended are also

> > as per " pramanas " (instead of anarchy!) since the day of Vasanta Sampata

> > (Vernal Equinox of Marhc 21, 2010) is known as Mesha Samkranti as per all

> > the Puranas---when the day is equal to night; the day of Autumn Equinox is

> > known as Tula Samkranti as per those very Puranas---when again the day is

> > equal to night---- and Dakshinayana Day known as Karkata Samkranti (when the

> > day is the longest in northern hemispheres) and Winter Solstice i.e.

> > Uttarayana, known as Makra Samkranti ( the actual PONGAL in

> > Tamilnadu!)---when the day is the shortest in the southern hemisphere-----

> > are said to be the Samkrantis when one gains immense punya by performing

> > japa and meditation etc. or having baths in the Ganges etc. on those days.

> > These four samkantis are said to be thousand fold more fruitful than the

> > ordinary samkratis (and that also so called sayana, since Messrs Lahiri,

> > Ramana and Harimala etc. etc.---nirayanawalas---- did not exist even in an

> > embryonic stage then!). And these pramanas do have a very solid

> > geographical/astronomical backing as will be evident from BVB6 and 1999b

> > etc. papers.

> >

> > That is why I go on repeating that our seers were more scientific than all

> > the Lahiris and Ramans and Harimalas etc. etc. put together!

> >

> > Jai Shri Ram!

> >

> > AKK

> >

> >

> > HinduCalendar , " Pathmarajah " <beastmy@> wrote:

> >

> > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> >

> >

> >

> > Happy New Year 1932 (Saka calendar)!

> >

> > In formulating a new Hindu calendar, we do not need to base it on any

> > pramana, but simply on modern astronomy and common seasonal sense, a

> > lunisolar calendar in which leap years coincide with those of the

> > Gregorian calendar

> >

> > All the pramanas are inaccurate or faulty.

> >

> > Can we please get on with it?

> >

> > Pathma

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --- In

> > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=c8zJWcAgMy8Yb0Qdcbv

> > PYr_OWgIbGx7-AbZkcUjEwwnsc43ztXUKEM3817cL9Sl5p8j-OtNSgTDS5P1r-eQclBA7w-uf0Bq

> > W> HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear friends,

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his view

> > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic

> > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the

> > Vedas,

> > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as per

> > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact dates " ,

> > " in

> > > my view " and so on!

> > >

> > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely

> > without

> > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not to

> > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future.

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > >

> > > Moderator

> > >

> > >

> > > --- In

> > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=c8zJWcAgMy8Yb0Qdcbv

> > PYr_OWgIbGx7-AbZkcUjEwwnsc43ztXUKEM3817cL9Sl5p8j-OtNSgTDS5P1r-eQclBA7w-uf0Bq

> > W> HinduCalendar , " hari " harimalla@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji,

> > > Namaskar!

> > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees

> > > with

> > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an

> > > essay or a

> > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful.

> > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya.

> > The

> > > meaning

> > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are

> > > definition

> > > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing

> > > concepts from

> > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask

> > > experts who

> > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures.

> > > These words

> > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the

> > > ayans were

> > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of

> > > the

> > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of

> > > testing

> > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and

> > let

> > > other

> > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from

> > 1

> > > to 4

> > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words.

> > >

> > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as

> > an

> > > alternative to the lunar months " >

> > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this.

> > >

> > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > much

> > > earlier than 285 AD " >

> > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof

> > > since Meesh

> > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason.

> > >

> > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the

> > > names of the solar months itself " >

> > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year

> > of

> > > 366

> > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them

> > > relating them

> > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months

> > > coming along

> > > with the rashis?

> > >

> > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > Gregory " .>

> > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent

> > > concept

> > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are

> > > naturally not

> > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit

> > > with the

> > > seasons artificially.

> > >

> > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > lunar

> > > months without a sankranti " .>

> > >

> > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'.

> > >

> > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to

> > > some

> > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current

> > > practise of

> > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The

> > only

> > > mistake

> > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits.

> > > He should

> > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of

> > the

> > > luanr

> > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the

> > > nakshyatras.

> > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of

> > > discussion. We

> > > are here to find the truth.

> > > Regards,

> > > Hari Malla

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

> , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote:

> >

> > WOW! I am getting seriously envious of Avatar Kaul_dada! He bagged TWO GURUS

> in just a couple of days!

> >

> > But Wait! Maybe not! One of the two self-imposing Gurus just gave up on him!

> Now he has just one choice to make! Or none really!

> >

> > But seriously folks, I do not think Kaul_jee is looking for any Gurus

[bRAVO!]

> but just some answers!

> >

> > All he has are questions!

> >

> > Rohiniranjan

> >

> >

> >

> > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear shri Kaulji,

> > > It is certain you will never get any further in your efforts for calendar

> reform. The reason is you never listen to others's opinion.My advise is you

stop

> wasting other people's time by pretending to be serious about calendar reform,

> when you are not.If you are serious please listen to what others say and

> interact by giving your own opinion too. But you must first improve your

> vocabulary and know the meanings of the words used in calendar systems like

> sayan and nirayan. But I am afraid you do not want to do that either.

> > > So you will get no further with such attitude.

> > > good bye,

> > > Hari Malla

> > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear friends,

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his view

> > > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic

> > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the Vedas,

> > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as per

> > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact dates " , " in

> > > > my view " and so on!

> > > >

> > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely without

> > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not to

> > > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > > Moderator

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji,

> > > > Namaskar!

> > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees

> > > > with

> > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an

> > > > essay or a

> > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful.

> > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya. The

> > > > meaning

> > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are

> > > > definition

> > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing

> > > > concepts from

> > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask

> > > > experts who

> > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures.

> > > > These words

> > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the

> > > > ayans were

> > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of

> > > > the

> > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of

> > > > testing

> > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and let

> > > > other

> > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from 1

> > > > to 4

> > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words.

> > > >

> > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > alternative to the lunar months " >

> > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this.

> > > >

> > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > much

> > > > earlier than 285 AD " >

> > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof

> > > > since Meesh

> > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason.

> > > >

> > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the

> > > > names of the solar months itself " >

> > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year of

> > > > 366

> > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them

> > > > relating them

> > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months

> > > > coming along

> > > > with the rashis?

> > > >

> > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > > Gregory " .>

> > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent

> > > > concept

> > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are

> > > > naturally not

> > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit

> > > > with the

> > > > seasons artificially.

> > > >

> > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > > lunar

> > > > months without a sankranti " .>

> > > >

> > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'.

> > > >

> > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to

> > > > some

> > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current

> > > > practise of

> > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The only

> > > > mistake

> > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits.

> > > > He should

> > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of the

> > > > luanr

> > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the

> > > > nakshyatras.

> > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of

> > > > discussion. We

> > > > are here to find the truth.

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Hari Malla

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar

> > > >

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " Krishen "

> > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the shastras,

> > > > giving

> > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you is:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand "

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the stars

> > > > truly

> > > > > are, in practical sense "

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'

> > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied "

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > > alternative to the lunar months "

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > > much earlier than 285 AD "

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of the

> > > > > names of the solar months itself "

> > > > >

> > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > > > Gregory " .

> > > > >

> > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " .

> > > > >

> > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime now

> > > > but

> > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you have

> > > > said

> > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you are

> > > > not

> > > > > stisfied with my answers " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are quite

> > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to bamboozle

> > > > a

> > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, which is

> > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the throat of

> > > > > Hindu community!

> > > > >

> > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive size

> > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against the

> > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size that

> > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have

> > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the ingredients

> > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to to

> > > > > the same.

> > > > >

> > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who knows! If

> > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also

> > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " etc.

> > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific and as

> > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in convicning

> > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " like

> > > > > that of Lahiri's!

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > HinduCalendar

> > > >

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " hari "

> > > > <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji,

> > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to answeer to

> > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different understanding of

> > > > the

> > > > > words we use and also the concepts.

> > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is tropical

> > > > or

> > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I use

> > > > the

> > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But

> > > > strictly

> > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at the

> > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not moving

> > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical sense.

> > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > > (not

> > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the rashis and

> > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, sidereal or

> > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along with

> > > > the

> > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is known as

> > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the nakshaytras

> > > > can

> > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a way of

> > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own convenience,

> > > > since

> > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton of the

> > > > > words and the concepts.

> > > > > > Now going point by point:

> > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both sayana

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > > applicable

> > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied to

> > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they truly are,

> > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the circle of

> > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also become

> > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > > and

> > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are not

> > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar months.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > > whom?

> > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > much

> > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at the

> > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of the

> > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. This

> > > > is

> > > > > all I can say.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and by

> > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months are 30

> > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction

> > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the names of

> > > > the

> > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came along

> > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of Vedanga

> > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given only

> > > > > second priority.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are nirayan or

> > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is recent.

> > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl. give

> > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate manner

> > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus non

> > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar months

> > > > and

> > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the

> > > > sankrantis

> > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a

> > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are the

> > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without a

> > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from the

> > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the

> > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the

> > > > sidereal

> > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to adhimases

> > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar month

> > > > to

> > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar sankranti

> > > > as

> > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very very

> > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical

> > > > uttarayan

> > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga jyotish

> > > > as

> > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is non

> > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and

> > > > tropical

> > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the vedanga

> > > > > jyotish period.

> > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with my

> > > > > answers.Thank you.

> > > > > > Hari Malla

> > > > > >

> > > > > > HinduCalendar

> > > >

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " jyotirved "

> > > > jyotirved@ wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it always has

> > > > > been

> > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of solar

> > > > > months

> > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham which

> > > > > includes

> > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were no

> > > > > Mesha,

> > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both

> > > > sayana

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > > applicable

> > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.

> > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > > and

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.

> > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > > whom?

> > > > > Pl.

> > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and

> > > > by

> > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl.

> > > > give

> > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, quoting

> > > > > the exact

> > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English

> > > > > translation,

> > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, as is

> > > > > your

> > > > > > > habit.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A K Kaul

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > > >

> > > > Dear friends,

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his view

> > > > point. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic

> > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the Vedas,

> > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as per

> > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact dates " , " in

> > > > my view " and so on!

> > > >

> > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely without

> > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not to

> > > > allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum in future.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > >

> > > > Moderator

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11

> > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji,

> > > > Namaskar!

> > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he disagrees

> > > > with

> > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write an

> > > > essay or a

> > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful.

> > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta vakya. The

> > > > meaning

> > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These are

> > > > definition

> > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing

> > > > concepts from

> > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or ask

> > > > experts who

> > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient scriptures.

> > > > These words

> > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and the

> > > > ayans were

> > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking of

> > > > the

> > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, instead of

> > > > testing

> > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine and let

> > > > other

> > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji from 1

> > > > to 4

> > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words.

> > > >

> > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > alternative to the lunar months " >

> > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this.

> > > >

> > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > much

> > > > earlier than 285 AD " >

> > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as proof

> > > > since Meesh

> > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason.

> > > >

> > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of the

> > > > names of the solar months itself " >

> > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the year of

> > > > 366

> > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them

> > > > relating them

> > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months

> > > > coming along

> > > > with the rashis?

> > > >

> > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > > Gregory " .>

> > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a recent

> > > > concept

> > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are

> > > > naturally not

> > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it fit

> > > > with the

> > > > seasons artificially.

> > > >

> > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > > lunar

> > > > months without a sankranti " .>

> > > >

> > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'.

> > > >

> > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we come to

> > > > some

> > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our current

> > > > practise of

> > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The only

> > > > mistake

> > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar limits.

> > > > He should

> > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms of the

> > > > luanr

> > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with the

> > > > nakshyatras.

> > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of

> > > > discussion. We

> > > > are here to find the truth.

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Hari Malla

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > HinduCalendar

> > > >

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " Krishen "

> > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the shastras,

> > > > giving

> > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you is:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand "

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the stars

> > > > truly

> > > > > are, in practical sense "

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'

> > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied "

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > > alternative to the lunar months "

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > > much earlier than 285 AD "

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of the

> > > > > names of the solar months itself "

> > > > >

> > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as Pope

> > > > > Gregory " .

> > > > >

> > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are

> > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " .

> > > > >

> > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime now

> > > > but

> > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you have

> > > > said

> > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you are

> > > > not

> > > > > stisfied with my answers " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are quite

> > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to bamboozle

> > > > a

> > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, which is

> > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the throat of

> > > > > Hindu community!

> > > > >

> > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive size

> > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against the

> > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size that

> > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have

> > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the ingredients

> > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to to

> > > > > the same.

> > > > >

> > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who knows! If

> > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also

> > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " etc.

> > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific and as

> > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in convicning

> > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " like

> > > > > that of Lahiri's!

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > HinduCalendar

> > > >

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " hari "

> > > > <harimalla@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji,

> > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to answeer to

> > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different understanding of

> > > > the

> > > > > words we use and also the concepts.

> > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is tropical

> > > > or

> > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I use

> > > > the

> > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But

> > > > strictly

> > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at the

> > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not moving

> > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical sense.

> > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are nirayan

> > > > (not

> > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the rashis and

> > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, sidereal or

> > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along with

> > > > the

> > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is known as

> > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the nakshaytras

> > > > can

> > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a way of

> > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own convenience,

> > > > since

> > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton of the

> > > > > words and the concepts.

> > > > > > Now going point by point:

> > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both sayana

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > > applicable

> > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be applied to

> > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they truly are,

> > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the circle of

> > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also become

> > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > > and

> > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as an

> > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are not

> > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar months.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > > whom?

> > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is not

> > > > much

> > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at the

> > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of the

> > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. This

> > > > is

> > > > > all I can say.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and by

> > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months are 30

> > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction

> > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the names of

> > > > the

> > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came along

> > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of Vedanga

> > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given only

> > > > > second priority.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are nirayan or

> > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is recent.

> > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl. give

> > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate manner

> > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus non

> > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar months

> > > > and

> > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the

> > > > sankrantis

> > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a

> > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are the

> > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without a

> > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from the

> > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the

> > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the

> > > > sidereal

> > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to adhimases

> > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar month

> > > > to

> > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar sankranti

> > > > as

> > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very very

> > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical

> > > > uttarayan

> > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga jyotish

> > > > as

> > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is non

> > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and

> > > > tropical

> > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the vedanga

> > > > > jyotish period.

> > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with my

> > > > > answers.Thank you.

> > > > > > Hari Malla

> > > > > >

> > > > > > HinduCalendar

> > > >

<HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\

> > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , " jyotirved "

> > > > jyotirved@ wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it always has

> > > > > been

> > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of solar

> > > > > months

> > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham which

> > > > > includes

> > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were no

> > > > > Mesha,

> > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both

> > > > sayana

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and nirayana is

> > > > > applicable

> > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.

> > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu community,

> > > > and

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.

> > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and by

> > > > whom?

> > > > > Pl.

> > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months and

> > > > by

> > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so called

> > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? Pl.

> > > > give

> > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, quoting

> > > > > the exact

> > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English

> > > > > translation,

> > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, as is

> > > > > your

> > > > > > > habit.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A K Kaul

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >