Guest guest Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 You use several names like Utkal, Lalit etc. In other words those are the choices you yourself have given. So if one uses those as sambodhan, that is not distortion of someone's name. Babu and dada and ji is just well accepted sambodhan amongst those who grew up with good upbringing in India. I think you are getting confused wrongly! RR_, , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi wrote: > > > Mr RR, > > By a commonly known practice of making fun of those people who knows > more then what you have known or those who discoverred what you have not > come to know as of know, you have eclispsed your's wisdom, gravity and > presence in group. > > Recall, how you have been addressing people including me - Babu, Ji, > La.... Vi..... Ut.... > > Hope you won't repeat same, By the way, Panigrahi means - that holds > water, utkal is the part of India wherefrom Sun spreads it's light to > main land. > > And for your's knowledge, Once you questioned my parampara, being a > brahmin, I belong to parampara of vedic sages, furthermore, God gave me > birth in same Ralhi Brahmins in which once Chaitnya MahaPrabhu was born. > > Utkal. > > > , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> > wrote: > > > > Mr. Lalit, > > > > It is common knowledge that you do not like or respect your name/s, > and hence keep changing those at the drop of a hat, but please do not > distort other people's names. Doing so demonstrates poor upbringing and > is infantile :-) > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Rahu Ranjan - > that intersection is not created by Motion ? > > > > > > // Rahu is not created by motion, bade bhai! Rahu is created by > > > intesection! > > > > > > // > > > > > > Good Going ...... !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " jyotish_vani@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is not created by motion, bade bhai! Rahu is created by > > > > intesection! Vishnu's chakra (perhaps lunar orbit) intersected the > > > > projected orbit of earth (astrological path of sun) and bisected > the > > > > latter into two domains: The northern domain ruled by or > represented > > > by > > > > Rahu while the southern domain was ruled or represented by ketu. > > > > > > > > > > Next time you have your conversation with God, please ask on my > > > behalf > > > > and bring back the Divine channeled answer to share with us great > > > > unwashed! > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we will reinforce the soapbox so that it can > hold > > > > your weight! :-) > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > > > > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly like Rahu ... Hmmm ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu neither learns nor introspects ... lacks the ability, > > > > > > > > > > > > Disturbed Rahu still preaches .. still shows dambha and mada, > > > Learn > > > > to > > > > > > pray for yourself.... Even Amrit couldn't help Rahu keeping > it's > > > > > > integrity, integrity and Rahu, Morality and Rahu ... Rahu is > > > gossips > > > > > > and time pass .... in the name of astrology.. > > > > > > > > > > > > No mercy for a rahu, always deserves a Sudarshan Chakra.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is created by motion ...... then how'z Sun and other > planets > > > > .... > > > > > > good fun @ astrology, keep going .... how long ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " > > > <jyotish_vani@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you okay, Dear Fellow? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You sound very disturbed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take it easy! Do not take internet soap-boxes too seriously > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will pray for your peace and stability! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > > > > > > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is envious, True , Rahu is Mada .... Madandha too !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dos a scholar Like Sri AK Kaul need's advisors like Rahu > .... > > > > Haa .. > > > > > > Haa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Envious Rahu ..... Rahu doesn't learn, Even from Ketu ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ketu who is burning the world ..... beware of Ketu, It's > > > > DhumraKetu > > > > > > > > indeed !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Utkal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " > > > > <jyotish_vani@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WOW! I am getting seriously envious of Avatar Kaul_dada! > He > > > > bagged > > > > > > TWO > > > > > > > > GURUS in just a couple of days! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Wait! Maybe not! One of the two self-imposing Gurus > just > > > > gave > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > on him! Now he has just one choice to make! Or none > really! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But seriously folks, I do not think Kaul_jee is looking > for > > > > any > > > > > > Gurus > > > > > > > > [bRAVO!] but just some answers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All he has are questions! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " harimalla@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > It is certain you will never get any further in your > > > efforts > > > > for > > > > > > > > calendar reform. The reason is you never listen to > others's > > > > > > opinion.My > > > > > > > > advise is you stop wasting other people's time by > pretending > > > to > > > > be > > > > > > > > serious about calendar reform, when you are not.If you are > > > > serious > > > > > > > > please listen to what others say and interact by giving > your > > > own > > > > > > opinion > > > > > > > > too. But you must first improve your vocabulary and know > the > > > > > > meanings of > > > > > > > > the words used in calendar systems like sayan and nirayan. > But > > > I > > > > am > > > > > > > > afraid you do not want to do that either. > > > > > > > > > > So you will get no further with such attitude. > > > > > > > > > > good bye, > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " > > > <jyotirved@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to > > > > explain > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > > > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to > > > prepare > > > > a > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or > parameters > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern > astronomy, > > > but > > > > only > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > per > > > > > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have > the > > > > exact > > > > > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > > > > > > completely > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have > > > > decided > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " > > > <harimalla@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which > > > points > > > > he > > > > > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to > make > > > me > > > > > > write > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be > > > > fruitful. > > > > > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference > and > > > > apta > > > > > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct > > > > meanings. > > > > > > These > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first > before > > > > > > discussing > > > > > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the > > > > dictioneries > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > ask > > > > > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in > ancient > > > > > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of > the > > > > stars > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting > intead > > > of > > > > > > talking > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what > is > > > > said, > > > > > > > > instead of > > > > > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is > different > > > > from > > > > > > mine > > > > > > > > and let > > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised > by > > > shri > > > > > > Kaulji > > > > > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > > that > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy > > > > inference, as > > > > > > > > proof > > > > > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no > other > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar > months > > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > year of > > > > > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had > details > > > > about > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the > accurate > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, > is > > > > surely > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > recent > > > > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. > The > > > > stars > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is > only > > > > making > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > fit > > > > > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the > > > > discussion.So we > > > > > > > > come to > > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept > that > > > > our > > > > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the > > > vedic > > > > > > lore.The > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded > the > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > limits. > > > > > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first > celebrated > > > in > > > > > > terms > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the > > > > fullmoons > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with > the > > > > subject > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans > fromt > > > the > > > > > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I > get > > > > from > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but > fixed > > > as > > > > the > > > > > > > > stars > > > > > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > > > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > > > > equally be > > > > > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my > assumption is > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is not > > > > > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > > > introduction of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for > quite > > > > > > sometime > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown > it > > > > all, > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those > places > > > > whaere > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your > > > > answers? We > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > quite > > > > > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an > > > > effort to > > > > > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down > a > > > > > > calendar, > > > > > > > > which is > > > > > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, > > > down > > > > the > > > > > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of > a > > > > > > diminutive > > > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have > some > > > cash > > > > > > against > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse > of > > > > the > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with > you! > > > > You > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has > none of > > > > the > > > > > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want > " clients " > > > to > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one > day, > > > > who > > > > > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of > > > India > > > > and > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing > or > > > > that > > > > > > thing " > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the > most > > > > > > scientific > > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed > some > > > day > > > > in > > > > > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific > and > > > > > > logical " > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I > will > > > try > > > > to > > > > > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have > different > > > > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand.Thus > > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is > in > > > this > > > > > > sense I > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of > > > > 'tropical'shift. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle > of > > > > stars > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. > > > Nirayan > > > > is > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > moving > > > > > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, > in > > > > > > practical > > > > > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus > both > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true > > > > sense, > > > > > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are > > > moving > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that > > > > system is > > > > > > > > known as > > > > > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis > and > > > the > > > > > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But > this > > > is > > > > just > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > way of > > > > > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our > own > > > > > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for > the > > > > > > definiton > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > equally > > > > be > > > > > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed > stars, as > > > > they > > > > > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume > > > that > > > > the > > > > > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the > > > > nakshyatras > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too as > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of > the > > > > months > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority > to > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > that > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh > > > sankranti > > > > was > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya > > > sidhanta, > > > > talk > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who > introduced > > > the > > > > > > rashis. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and by > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not > > > find > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the > solar > > > > months > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar > > > months > > > > of > > > > > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they > were > > > > then > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone > they > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of > > > > rashis is > > > > > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in > an > > > > > > approximate > > > > > > > > manner > > > > > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars > and > > > are > > > > > > thus > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, > the > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically > > > supplied > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan > > > sankrantis > > > > are > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the > Adityas.These > > > > adityas > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar > > > months > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar > months, > > > > evident > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which > come > > > > form > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 > > > days > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months > fluctuate > > > > due to > > > > > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the > > > > fluctuating > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > month > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha > or > > > > makar > > > > > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual > uttaryan > > > for > > > > a > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both > the > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both > from > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say > sidhanta > > > > > > jyotish is > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the > > > > sidiearal > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done > during > > > > the > > > > > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not > > > > stisfied > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative > system > > > as > > > > it > > > > > > > > always has > > > > > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan > > > > systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is > no > > > > record > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > solar > > > > > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga > > > > Jyotisham > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to > you > > > > there > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed > with > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement > that > > > you > > > > > > make, > > > > > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and > their > > > > > > English > > > > > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has > said > > > so > > > > and > > > > > > so, > > > > > > > > as is > > > > > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " > > > <jyotirved@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to > > > > explain > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > > > > point. It has become clear by now that he wants to > > > prepare > > > > a > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or > parameters > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern > astronomy, > > > but > > > > only > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > per > > > > > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have > the > > > > exact > > > > > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > > > > > > completely > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have > > > > decided > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum > in > > > > future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " > > > <harimalla@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which > > > points > > > > he > > > > > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to > make > > > me > > > > > > write > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be > > > > fruitful. > > > > > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference > and > > > > apta > > > > > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct > > > > meanings. > > > > > > These > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first > before > > > > > > discussing > > > > > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the > > > > dictioneries > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > ask > > > > > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in > ancient > > > > > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of > the > > > > stars > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting > intead > > > of > > > > > > talking > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what > is > > > > said, > > > > > > > > instead of > > > > > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is > different > > > > from > > > > > > mine > > > > > > > > and let > > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised > by > > > shri > > > > > > Kaulji > > > > > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > > that > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy > > > > inference, as > > > > > > > > proof > > > > > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no > other > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar > months > > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > year of > > > > > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had > details > > > > about > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the > accurate > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, > is > > > > surely > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > recent > > > > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. > The > > > > stars > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is > only > > > > making > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > fit > > > > > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the > > > > discussion.So we > > > > > > > > come to > > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept > that > > > > our > > > > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the > > > vedic > > > > > > lore.The > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded > the > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > limits. > > > > > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first > celebrated > > > in > > > > > > terms > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the > > > > fullmoons > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with > the > > > > subject > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans > fromt > > > the > > > > > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I > get > > > > from > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but > fixed > > > as > > > > the > > > > > > > > stars > > > > > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > > > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > > > > equally be > > > > > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my > assumption is > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is not > > > > > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > > > introduction of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for > quite > > > > > > sometime > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown > it > > > > all, > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those > places > > > > whaere > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your > > > > answers? We > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > quite > > > > > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an > > > > effort to > > > > > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down > a > > > > > > calendar, > > > > > > > > which is > > > > > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, > > > down > > > > the > > > > > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of > a > > > > > > diminutive > > > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have > some > > > cash > > > > > > against > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse > of > > > > the > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with > you! > > > > You > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has > none of > > > > the > > > > > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want > " clients " > > > to > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one > day, > > > > who > > > > > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of > > > India > > > > and > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing > or > > > > that > > > > > > thing " > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the > most > > > > > > scientific > > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed > some > > > day > > > > in > > > > > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific > and > > > > > > logical " > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I > will > > > try > > > > to > > > > > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have > different > > > > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand.Thus > > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is > in > > > this > > > > > > sense I > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of > > > > 'tropical'shift. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle > of > > > > stars > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. > > > Nirayan > > > > is > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > moving > > > > > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, > in > > > > > > practical > > > > > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus > both > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true > > > > sense, > > > > > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are > > > moving > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that > > > > system is > > > > > > > > known as > > > > > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis > and > > > the > > > > > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But > this > > > is > > > > just > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > way of > > > > > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our > own > > > > > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for > the > > > > > > definiton > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > equally > > > > be > > > > > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed > stars, as > > > > they > > > > > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume > > > that > > > > the > > > > > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the > > > > nakshyatras > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too as > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of > the > > > > months > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority > to > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > that > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh > > > sankranti > > > > was > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya > > > sidhanta, > > > > talk > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who > introduced > > > the > > > > > > rashis. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and by > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not > > > find > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the > solar > > > > months > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar > > > months > > > > of > > > > > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they > were > > > > then > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone > they > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of > > > > rashis is > > > > > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in > an > > > > > > approximate > > > > > > > > manner > > > > > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars > and > > > are > > > > > > thus > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, > the > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically > > > supplied > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan > > > sankrantis > > > > are > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the > Adityas.These > > > > adityas > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar > > > months > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar > months, > > > > evident > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which > come > > > > form > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 > > > days > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months > fluctuate > > > > due to > > > > > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the > > > > fluctuating > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > month > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha > or > > > > makar > > > > > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual > uttaryan > > > for > > > > a > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both > the > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both > from > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say > sidhanta > > > > > > jyotish is > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the > > > > sidiearal > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done > during > > > > the > > > > > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not > > > > stisfied > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative > system > > > as > > > > it > > > > > > > > always has > > > > > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan > > > > systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is > no > > > > record > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > solar > > > > > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga > > > > Jyotisham > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to > you > > > > there > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed > with > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement > that > > > you > > > > > > make, > > > > > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and > their > > > > > > English > > > > > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has > said > > > so > > > > and > > > > > > so, > > > > > > > > as is > > > > > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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