Guest guest Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Just to complete my attempt to correct your mis-reading, and dare I say confusing a message directed at someone else, I quote from your message below: " And for your's knowledge, Once you questioned my parampara " Lalit Misra jee, I do not recall ever questioning you on this matter since it is of no concern or importance to me :-) You may have confused a message from me directed to D.N. Misrajee, namely: /message/73345 Even there, I was not questioning his lineage or knowledge etc! Perhaps you got confused because both of you have the same Surname, namely Misra! Interesting coincidence, I say...! Hmmm... Regards, Rohiniranjan , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi wrote: > > > Mr RR, > > By a commonly known practice of making fun of those people who knows > more then what you have known or those who discoverred what you have not > come to know as of know, you have eclispsed your's wisdom, gravity and > presence in group. > > Recall, how you have been addressing people including me - Babu, Ji, > La.... Vi..... Ut.... > > Hope you won't repeat same, By the way, Panigrahi means - that holds > water, utkal is the part of India wherefrom Sun spreads it's light to > main land. > > And for your's knowledge, Once you questioned my parampara, being a > brahmin, I belong to parampara of vedic sages, furthermore, God gave me > birth in same Ralhi Brahmins in which once Chaitnya MahaPrabhu was born. > > Utkal. > > > , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> > wrote: > > > > Mr. Lalit, > > > > It is common knowledge that you do not like or respect your name/s, > and hence keep changing those at the drop of a hat, but please do not > distort other people's names. Doing so demonstrates poor upbringing and > is infantile :-) > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Rahu Ranjan - > that intersection is not created by Motion ? > > > > > > // Rahu is not created by motion, bade bhai! Rahu is created by > > > intesection! > > > > > > // > > > > > > Good Going ...... !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " jyotish_vani@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is not created by motion, bade bhai! Rahu is created by > > > > intesection! Vishnu's chakra (perhaps lunar orbit) intersected the > > > > projected orbit of earth (astrological path of sun) and bisected > the > > > > latter into two domains: The northern domain ruled by or > represented > > > by > > > > Rahu while the southern domain was ruled or represented by ketu. > > > > > > > > > > Next time you have your conversation with God, please ask on my > > > behalf > > > > and bring back the Divine channeled answer to share with us great > > > > unwashed! > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, we will reinforce the soapbox so that it can > hold > > > > your weight! :-) > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > > > > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly like Rahu ... Hmmm ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu neither learns nor introspects ... lacks the ability, > > > > > > > > > > > > Disturbed Rahu still preaches .. still shows dambha and mada, > > > Learn > > > > to > > > > > > pray for yourself.... Even Amrit couldn't help Rahu keeping > it's > > > > > > integrity, integrity and Rahu, Morality and Rahu ... Rahu is > > > gossips > > > > > > and time pass .... in the name of astrology.. > > > > > > > > > > > > No mercy for a rahu, always deserves a Sudarshan Chakra.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is created by motion ...... then how'z Sun and other > planets > > > > .... > > > > > > good fun @ astrology, keep going .... how long ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " > > > <jyotish_vani@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you okay, Dear Fellow? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You sound very disturbed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take it easy! Do not take internet soap-boxes too seriously > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will pray for your peace and stability! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > > > > > > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is envious, True , Rahu is Mada .... Madandha too !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dos a scholar Like Sri AK Kaul need's advisors like Rahu > .... > > > > Haa .. > > > > > > Haa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Envious Rahu ..... Rahu doesn't learn, Even from Ketu ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ketu who is burning the world ..... beware of Ketu, It's > > > > DhumraKetu > > > > > > > > indeed !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Utkal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " > > > > <jyotish_vani@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WOW! I am getting seriously envious of Avatar Kaul_dada! > He > > > > bagged > > > > > > TWO > > > > > > > > GURUS in just a couple of days! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Wait! Maybe not! One of the two self-imposing Gurus > just > > > > gave > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > on him! Now he has just one choice to make! Or none > really! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But seriously folks, I do not think Kaul_jee is looking > for > > > > any > > > > > > Gurus > > > > > > > > [bRAVO!] but just some answers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All he has are questions! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " harimalla@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > It is certain you will never get any further in your > > > efforts > > > > for > > > > > > > > calendar reform. The reason is you never listen to > others's > > > > > > opinion.My > > > > > > > > advise is you stop wasting other people's time by > pretending > > > to > > > > be > > > > > > > > serious about calendar reform, when you are not.If you are > > > > serious > > > > > > > > please listen to what others say and interact by giving > your > > > own > > > > > > opinion > > > > > > > > too. But you must first improve your vocabulary and know > the > > > > > > meanings of > > > > > > > > the words used in calendar systems like sayan and nirayan. > But > > > I > > > > am > > > > > > > > afraid you do not want to do that either. > > > > > > > > > > So you will get no further with such attitude. > > > > > > > > > > good bye, > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " > > > <jyotirved@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to > > > > explain > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > > > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to > > > prepare > > > > a > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or > parameters > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern > astronomy, > > > but > > > > only > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > per > > > > > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have > the > > > > exact > > > > > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > > > > > > completely > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have > > > > decided > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " > > > <harimalla@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which > > > points > > > > he > > > > > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to > make > > > me > > > > > > write > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be > > > > fruitful. > > > > > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference > and > > > > apta > > > > > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct > > > > meanings. > > > > > > These > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first > before > > > > > > discussing > > > > > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the > > > > dictioneries > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > ask > > > > > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in > ancient > > > > > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of > the > > > > stars > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting > intead > > > of > > > > > > talking > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what > is > > > > said, > > > > > > > > instead of > > > > > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is > different > > > > from > > > > > > mine > > > > > > > > and let > > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised > by > > > shri > > > > > > Kaulji > > > > > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > > that > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy > > > > inference, as > > > > > > > > proof > > > > > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no > other > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar > months > > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > year of > > > > > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had > details > > > > about > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the > accurate > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, > is > > > > surely > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > recent > > > > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. > The > > > > stars > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is > only > > > > making > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > fit > > > > > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the > > > > discussion.So we > > > > > > > > come to > > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept > that > > > > our > > > > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the > > > vedic > > > > > > lore.The > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded > the > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > limits. > > > > > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first > celebrated > > > in > > > > > > terms > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the > > > > fullmoons > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with > the > > > > subject > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans > fromt > > > the > > > > > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I > get > > > > from > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but > fixed > > > as > > > > the > > > > > > > > stars > > > > > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > > > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > > > > equally be > > > > > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my > assumption is > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is not > > > > > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > > > introduction of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for > quite > > > > > > sometime > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown > it > > > > all, > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those > places > > > > whaere > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your > > > > answers? We > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > quite > > > > > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an > > > > effort to > > > > > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down > a > > > > > > calendar, > > > > > > > > which is > > > > > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, > > > down > > > > the > > > > > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of > a > > > > > > diminutive > > > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have > some > > > cash > > > > > > against > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse > of > > > > the > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with > you! > > > > You > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has > none of > > > > the > > > > > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want > " clients " > > > to > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one > day, > > > > who > > > > > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of > > > India > > > > and > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing > or > > > > that > > > > > > thing " > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the > most > > > > > > scientific > > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed > some > > > day > > > > in > > > > > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific > and > > > > > > logical " > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I > will > > > try > > > > to > > > > > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have > different > > > > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand.Thus > > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is > in > > > this > > > > > > sense I > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of > > > > 'tropical'shift. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle > of > > > > stars > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. > > > Nirayan > > > > is > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > moving > > > > > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, > in > > > > > > practical > > > > > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus > both > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true > > > > sense, > > > > > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are > > > moving > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that > > > > system is > > > > > > > > known as > > > > > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis > and > > > the > > > > > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But > this > > > is > > > > just > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > way of > > > > > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our > own > > > > > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for > the > > > > > > definiton > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > equally > > > > be > > > > > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed > stars, as > > > > they > > > > > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume > > > that > > > > the > > > > > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the > > > > nakshyatras > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too as > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of > the > > > > months > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority > to > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > that > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh > > > sankranti > > > > was > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya > > > sidhanta, > > > > talk > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who > introduced > > > the > > > > > > rashis. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and by > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not > > > find > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the > solar > > > > months > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar > > > months > > > > of > > > > > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they > were > > > > then > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone > they > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of > > > > rashis is > > > > > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in > an > > > > > > approximate > > > > > > > > manner > > > > > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars > and > > > are > > > > > > thus > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, > the > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically > > > supplied > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan > > > sankrantis > > > > are > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the > Adityas.These > > > > adityas > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar > > > months > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar > months, > > > > evident > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which > come > > > > form > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 > > > days > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months > fluctuate > > > > due to > > > > > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the > > > > fluctuating > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > month > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha > or > > > > makar > > > > > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual > uttaryan > > > for > > > > a > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both > the > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both > from > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say > sidhanta > > > > > > jyotish is > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the > > > > sidiearal > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done > during > > > > the > > > > > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not > > > > stisfied > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative > system > > > as > > > > it > > > > > > > > always has > > > > > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan > > > > systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is > no > > > > record > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > solar > > > > > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga > > > > Jyotisham > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to > you > > > > there > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed > with > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement > that > > > you > > > > > > make, > > > > > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and > their > > > > > > English > > > > > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has > said > > > so > > > > and > > > > > > so, > > > > > > > > as is > > > > > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " > > > <jyotirved@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to > > > > explain > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > > > > point. It has become clear by now that he wants to > > > prepare > > > > a > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or > parameters > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern > astronomy, > > > but > > > > only > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > per > > > > > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have > the > > > > exact > > > > > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > > > > > > completely > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have > > > > decided > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum > in > > > > future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " > > > <harimalla@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which > > > points > > > > he > > > > > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to > make > > > me > > > > > > write > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be > > > > fruitful. > > > > > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference > and > > > > apta > > > > > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct > > > > meanings. > > > > > > These > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first > before > > > > > > discussing > > > > > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the > > > > dictioneries > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > ask > > > > > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in > ancient > > > > > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of > the > > > > stars > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting > intead > > > of > > > > > > talking > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what > is > > > > said, > > > > > > > > instead of > > > > > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is > different > > > > from > > > > > > mine > > > > > > > > and let > > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised > by > > > shri > > > > > > Kaulji > > > > > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > > that > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy > > > > inference, as > > > > > > > > proof > > > > > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no > other > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar > months > > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > year of > > > > > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had > details > > > > about > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the > accurate > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, > is > > > > surely > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > recent > > > > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. > The > > > > stars > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is > only > > > > making > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > fit > > > > > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the > > > > discussion.So we > > > > > > > > come to > > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept > that > > > > our > > > > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the > > > vedic > > > > > > lore.The > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded > the > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > limits. > > > > > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first > celebrated > > > in > > > > > > terms > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the > > > > fullmoons > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with > the > > > > subject > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans > fromt > > > the > > > > > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I > get > > > > from > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but > fixed > > > as > > > > the > > > > > > > > stars > > > > > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > > > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > > > > equally be > > > > > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > as an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my > assumption is > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is not > > > > > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > > > introduction of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps > as > > > > recent > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for > quite > > > > > > sometime > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown > it > > > > all, > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those > places > > > > whaere > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your > > > > answers? We > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > quite > > > > > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an > > > > effort to > > > > > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down > a > > > > > > calendar, > > > > > > > > which is > > > > > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, > > > down > > > > the > > > > > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of > a > > > > > > diminutive > > > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have > some > > > cash > > > > > > against > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse > of > > > > the > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with > you! > > > > You > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has > none of > > > > the > > > > > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want > " clients " > > > to > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one > day, > > > > who > > > > > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of > > > India > > > > and > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing > or > > > > that > > > > > > thing " > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the > most > > > > > > scientific > > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed > some > > > day > > > > in > > > > > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific > and > > > > > > logical " > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I > will > > > try > > > > to > > > > > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have > different > > > > > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I > understand.Thus > > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is > in > > > this > > > > > > sense I > > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of > > > > 'tropical'shift. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle > of > > > > stars > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. > > > Nirayan > > > > is > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > moving > > > > > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, > in > > > > > > practical > > > > > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the > stars > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus > both > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true > > > > sense, > > > > > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are > > > moving > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that > > > > system is > > > > > > > > known as > > > > > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis > and > > > the > > > > > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But > this > > > is > > > > just > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > way of > > > > > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our > own > > > > > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for > the > > > > > > definiton > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can > equally > > > > be > > > > > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed > stars, as > > > > they > > > > > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume > > > that > > > > the > > > > > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the > > > > nakshyatras > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > too as > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of > the > > > > months > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority > to > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption > is > > > that > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh > > > sankranti > > > > was > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya > > > sidhanta, > > > > talk > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who > introduced > > > the > > > > > > rashis. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and by > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not > > > find > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the > solar > > > > months > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar > > > months > > > > of > > > > > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they > were > > > > then > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone > they > > > > are > > > > > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of > > > > rashis is > > > > > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in > an > > > > > > approximate > > > > > > > > manner > > > > > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars > and > > > are > > > > > > thus > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, > the > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically > > > supplied > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan > > > sankrantis > > > > are > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the > Adityas.These > > > > adityas > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar > > > months > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar > months, > > > > evident > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which > come > > > > form > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 > > > days > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months > fluctuate > > > > due to > > > > > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the > > > > fluctuating > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > > month > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha > or > > > > makar > > > > > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual > uttaryan > > > for > > > > a > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both > the > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both > from > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say > sidhanta > > > > > > jyotish is > > > > > > > > non > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the > > > > sidiearal > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done > during > > > > the > > > > > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not > > > > stisfied > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> > > > > , > > > > > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative > system > > > as > > > > it > > > > > > > > always has > > > > > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan > > > > systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is > no > > > > record > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > solar > > > > > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga > > > > Jyotisham > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to > you > > > > there > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative > > > system > > > > is > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called > sayana > > > > and > > > > > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in > the > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > community, > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced > in > > > > India > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed > with > > > > solar > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called > sayana > > > or > > > > so > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > > > > answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to > seasons > > > > or > > > > > > not? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement > that > > > you > > > > > > make, > > > > > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and > their > > > > > > English > > > > > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has > said > > > so > > > > and > > > > > > so, > > > > > > > > as is > > > > > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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