Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Are you okay, Dear Fellow? You sound very disturbed. Take it easy! Do not take internet soap-boxes too seriously :-) I will pray for your peace and stability! Rohiniranjan , " utkal.panigrahi " <utkal.panigrahi wrote: > > > Rahu is envious, True , Rahu is Mada .... Madandha too !! > > Dos a scholar Like Sri AK Kaul need's advisors like Rahu .... Haa .. Haa > > Envious Rahu ..... Rahu doesn't learn, Even from Ketu ... > > Ketu who is burning the world ..... beware of Ketu, It's DhumraKetu > indeed !! > > Utkal. > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> > wrote: > > > > WOW! I am getting seriously envious of Avatar Kaul_dada! He bagged TWO > GURUS in just a couple of days! > > > > But Wait! Maybe not! One of the two self-imposing Gurus just gave up > on him! Now he has just one choice to make! Or none really! > > > > But seriously folks, I do not think Kaul_jee is looking for any Gurus > [bRAVO!] but just some answers! > > > > All he has are questions! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > , " hari " harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > It is certain you will never get any further in your efforts for > calendar reform. The reason is you never listen to others's opinion.My > advise is you stop wasting other people's time by pretending to be > serious about calendar reform, when you are not.If you are serious > please listen to what others say and interact by giving your own opinion > too. But you must first improve your vocabulary and know the meanings of > the words used in calendar systems like sayan and nirayan. But I am > afraid you do not want to do that either. > > > So you will get no further with such attitude. > > > good bye, > > > Hari Malla > > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his > view > > > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the > Vedas, > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as > per > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact > dates " , " in > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely > without > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not > to > > > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future. > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > Namaskar! > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he > disagrees > > > > with > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write > an > > > > essay or a > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful. > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta > vakya. The > > > > meaning > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These > are > > > > definition > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing > > > > concepts from > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or > ask > > > > experts who > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient > scriptures. > > > > These words > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and > the > > > > ayans were > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking > of > > > > the > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, > instead of > > > > testing > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine > and let > > > > other > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji > from 1 > > > > to 4 > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too > as an > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this. > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is > not > > > > much > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as > proof > > > > since Meesh > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason. > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of > the > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the > year of > > > > 366 > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them > > > > relating them > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months > > > > coming along > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as > Pope > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a > recent > > > > concept > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are > > > > naturally not > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it > fit > > > > with the > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases > are > > > > lunar > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we > come to > > > > some > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our > current > > > > practise of > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The > only > > > > mistake > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar > limits. > > > > He should > > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms > of the > > > > luanr > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with > the > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of > > > > discussion. We > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > Regards, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > " Krishen " > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the > shastras, > > > > giving > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you > is: > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand " > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the > stars > > > > truly > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > nirayan > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > applied " > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too > as an > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it > is not > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of > the > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as > Pope > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime > now > > > > but > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you > have > > > > said > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you > are > > > > not > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are > quite > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to > bamboozle > > > > a > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, > which is > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the > throat of > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive > size > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against > the > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size > that > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the > ingredients > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to > to > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who > knows! If > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " > etc. > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific > and as > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in > convicning > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " > like > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > " hari " > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to > answeer to > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different > understanding of > > > > the > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is > tropical > > > > or > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I > use > > > > the > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But > > > > strictly > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at > the > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not > moving > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical > sense. > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > nirayan > > > > (not > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the > rashis and > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, > sidereal or > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along > with > > > > the > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is > known as > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the > nakshaytras > > > > can > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a > way of > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own > convenience, > > > > since > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton > of the > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both > sayana > > > > > and > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > nirayana is > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > applied to > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they > truly are, > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the > circle of > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also > become > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > community, > > > > and > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as > an > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are > not > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and > by > > > > whom? > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is > not > > > > much > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at > the > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of > the > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. > This > > > > is > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months > and by > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months > are 30 > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > introduction > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the > names of > > > > the > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came > along > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of > Vedanga > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given > only > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > called > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are > nirayan or > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is > recent. > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? > Pl. give > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate > manner > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus > non > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar > months > > > > and > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the > > > > sankrantis > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are > the > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without > a > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from > the > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the > > > > sidereal > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to > adhimases > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar > month > > > > to > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar > sankranti > > > > as > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very > very > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical > > > > uttarayan > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga > jyotish > > > > as > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is > non > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and > > > > tropical > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the > vedanga > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with > my > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > " jyotirved " > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it > always has > > > > > been > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of > solar > > > > > months > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham > which > > > > > includes > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were > no > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both > > > > sayana > > > > > and > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > nirayana is > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > community, > > > > and > > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and > by > > > > whom? > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > called > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? > Pl. > > > > give > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, > quoting > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, > as is > > > > > your > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain his > view > > > > point. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a Vedic > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from the > Vedas, > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only as > per > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact > dates " , " in > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions completely > without > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided not > to > > > > allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum in future. > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > Namaskar! > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he > disagrees > > > > with > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me write > an > > > > essay or a > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful. > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta > vakya. The > > > > meaning > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. These > are > > > > definition > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before discussing > > > > concepts from > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries or > ask > > > > experts who > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient > scriptures. > > > > These words > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars and > the > > > > ayans were > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of talking > of > > > > the > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, > instead of > > > > testing > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from mine > and let > > > > other > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri Kaulji > from 1 > > > > to 4 > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too > as an > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this. > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is > not > > > > much > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as > proof > > > > since Meesh > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other reason. > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction of > the > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with the > year of > > > > 366 > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about them > > > > relating them > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar months > > > > coming along > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as > Pope > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely a > recent > > > > concept > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars are > > > > naturally not > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making it > fit > > > > with the > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases > are > > > > lunar > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we > come to > > > > some > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our > current > > > > practise of > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic lore.The > only > > > > mistake > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar > limits. > > > > He should > > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in terms > of the > > > > luanr > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons with > the > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject of > > > > discussion. We > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > Regards, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > " Krishen " > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the > shastras, > > > > giving > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from you > is: > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand " > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the > stars > > > > truly > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > nirayan > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > applied " > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too > as an > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it > is not > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the introduction of > the > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent as > Pope > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite sometime > now > > > > but > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, you > have > > > > said > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere you > are > > > > not > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We are > quite > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to > bamboozle > > > > a > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a calendar, > which is > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the > throat of > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a diminutive > size > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash against > the > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the size > that > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You have > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the > ingredients > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to > to > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who > knows! If > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and also > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that thing " > etc. > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most scientific > and as > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in > convicning > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and logical " > like > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > " hari " > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to > answeer to > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different > understanding of > > > > the > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is > tropical > > > > or > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this sense I > use > > > > the > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. But > > > > strictly > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars at > the > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is not > moving > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in practical > sense. > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > nirayan > > > > (not > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the > rashis and > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, > sidereal or > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving along > with > > > > the > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is > known as > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the > nakshaytras > > > > can > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just a > way of > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own > convenience, > > > > since > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the definiton > of the > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both > sayana > > > > > and > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > nirayana is > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > applied to > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they > truly are, > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the > circle of > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras also > become > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > community, > > > > and > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish too as > an > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months are > not > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and > by > > > > whom? > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it is > not > > > > much > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was at > the > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk of > the > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the rashis. > This > > > > is > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months > and by > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar months > are 30 > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > introduction > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the > names of > > > > the > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months came > along > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of > Vedanga > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then given > only > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > called > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are > nirayan or > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is > recent. > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? > Pl. give > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an approximate > manner > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are thus > non > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar > months > > > > and > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the > > > > sankrantis > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are a > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas are > the > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months without > a > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident from > the > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form the > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of the > > > > sidereal > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to > adhimases > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating lunar > month > > > > to > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar > sankranti > > > > as > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a very > very > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the tropical > > > > uttarayan > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga > jyotish > > > > as > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta jyotish is > non > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal and > > > > tropical > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the > vedanga > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied with > my > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > " jyotirved " > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it > always has > > > > > been > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record of > solar > > > > > months > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham > which > > > > > includes > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there were > no > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is both > > > > sayana > > > > > and > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > nirayana is > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > community, > > > > and > > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India and > by > > > > whom? > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar months > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > called > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or not? > Pl. > > > > give > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you make, > quoting > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their English > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and so, > as is > > > > > your > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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