Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Interesting response, Kaul_dada! What is in a name, after all? Barahamihira, Varahamihira, Avatar, Obotaar, Krishna, Kaul, Jyotirved, Krishen! ;-) Seems like your teachers are wearing you down :-B RR_, , " Krishen " <jyotirved wrote: > > > > Shri Hari Mallaji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > <Dear Bhattacharyaji> > > Who is this " Bhattacharyaji " ? Something like " Barahamihira " instead of > Varahamihra? > > If it really like that, I wonder how you can " coordiante " the two i.e. > " Barahamhira " with Varahamihra and " Shri Bhattacharyjia " with Shri > Bhattacharjyaji. > > Jai Shri Ram! > > A K Kaul > > > , " hari " <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > Dear Bhattacharyaji, > > Can we hear your comments on shri Kaulji's points? > > regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > , " rohinicrystal " jyotish_vani@ > wrote: > > > > > > Are you okay, Dear Fellow? > > > > > > You sound very disturbed. > > > > > > Take it easy! Do not take internet soap-boxes too seriously :-) > > > > > > I will pray for your peace and stability! > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > <utkal.panigrahi@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is envious, True , Rahu is Mada .... Madandha too !! > > > > > > > > Dos a scholar Like Sri AK Kaul need's advisors like Rahu .... Haa > .. Haa > > > > > > > > Envious Rahu ..... Rahu doesn't learn, Even from Ketu ... > > > > > > > > Ketu who is burning the world ..... beware of Ketu, It's > DhumraKetu > > > > indeed !! > > > > > > > > Utkal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " > <jyotish_vani@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > WOW! I am getting seriously envious of Avatar Kaul_dada! He > bagged TWO > > > > GURUS in just a couple of days! > > > > > > > > > > But Wait! Maybe not! One of the two self-imposing Gurus just > gave up > > > > on him! Now he has just one choice to make! Or none really! > > > > > > > > > > But seriously folks, I do not think Kaul_jee is looking for any > Gurus > > > > [bRAVO!] but just some answers! > > > > > > > > > > All he has are questions! > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > > > It is certain you will never get any further in your efforts > for > > > > calendar reform. The reason is you never listen to others's > opinion.My > > > > advise is you stop wasting other people's time by pretending to be > > > > serious about calendar reform, when you are not.If you are serious > > > > please listen to what others say and interact by giving your own > opinion > > > > too. But you must first improve your vocabulary and know the > meanings of > > > > the words used in calendar systems like sayan and nirayan. But I > am > > > > afraid you do not want to do that either. > > > > > > So you will get no further with such attitude. > > > > > > good bye, > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain > his > > > > view > > > > > > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a > Vedic > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from > the > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but > only as > > > > per > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > completely > > > > without > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided > not > > > > to > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me > write > > > > an > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful. > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. > These > > > > are > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before > discussing > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the > dictioneries or > > > > ask > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the > stars and > > > > the > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of > talking > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, > > > > instead of > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from > mine > > > > and let > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri > Kaulji > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > jyotish too > > > > as an > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > it is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, > as > > > > proof > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the > introduction of > > > > the > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with > the > > > > year of > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about > them > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar > months > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as > recent as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is > surely a > > > > recent > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars > are > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only > making it > > > > fit > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > are > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So > we > > > > come to > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our > > > > current > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic > lore.The > > > > only > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the > lunar > > > > limits. > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in > terms > > > > of the > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the > fullmoons with > > > > the > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the > subject of > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get > from you > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as > the > > > > stars > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars > are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally > be > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > jyotish too > > > > as an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is > that it > > > > is not > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > introduction of > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as > recent as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite > sometime > > > > now > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, > you > > > > have > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places > whaere you > > > > are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? > We are > > > > quite > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort > to > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a > calendar, > > > > which is > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down > the > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a > diminutive > > > > size > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash > against > > > > the > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the > size > > > > that > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You > have > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to > > > > to > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India > and also > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that > thing " > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most > scientific > > > > and as > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and > logical " > > > > like > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it > is > > > > tropical > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this > sense I > > > > use > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of > 'tropical'shift. But > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of > stars at > > > > the > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is > not > > > > moving > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in > practical > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving > along > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system > is > > > > known as > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is > just a > > > > way of > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the > definiton > > > > of the > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is > both > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as > they > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that > the > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras > also > > > > become > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > too as > > > > an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the > months are > > > > not > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > it is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti > was at > > > > the > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, > talk of > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the > rashis. > > > > This > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > months > > > > and by > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar > months > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find > the > > > > names of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months > came > > > > along > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then > given > > > > only > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or > so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis > is > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > not? > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an > approximate > > > > manner > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are > thus > > > > non > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the > solar > > > > months > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied > the > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis > are a > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These > adityas are > > > > the > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months > without > > > > a > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, > evident from > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form > the > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of > the > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due > to > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating > lunar > > > > month > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a > very > > > > very > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the > tropical > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta > jyotish is > > > > non > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal > and > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied > with > > > > my > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it > > > > always has > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan > systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no > record of > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga > Jyotisham > > > > which > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you > there were > > > > no > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system > is both > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > months > > > > and > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or > so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > answers. > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > not? > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you > make, > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their > English > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so > and so, > > > > as is > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain > his > > > > view > > > > > > > point. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a > Vedic > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from > the > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but > only as > > > > per > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > completely > > > > without > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided > not > > > > to > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum in > future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me > write > > > > an > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful. > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. > These > > > > are > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before > discussing > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the > dictioneries or > > > > ask > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the > stars and > > > > the > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of > talking > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, > > > > instead of > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from > mine > > > > and let > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri > Kaulji > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > jyotish too > > > > as an > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > it is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, > as > > > > proof > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the > introduction of > > > > the > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with > the > > > > year of > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about > them > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar > months > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as > recent as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is > surely a > > > > recent > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars > are > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only > making it > > > > fit > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > are > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So > we > > > > come to > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our > > > > current > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic > lore.The > > > > only > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the > lunar > > > > limits. > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in > terms > > > > of the > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the > fullmoons with > > > > the > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the > subject of > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get > from you > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as > the > > > > stars > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars > are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally > be > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga > jyotish too > > > > as an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is > that it > > > > is not > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > introduction of > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as > recent as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite > sometime > > > > now > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, > you > > > > have > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places > whaere you > > > > are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? > We are > > > > quite > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort > to > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a > calendar, > > > > which is > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down > the > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a > diminutive > > > > size > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash > against > > > > the > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the > size > > > > that > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You > have > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to > > > > to > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India > and also > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that > thing " > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most > scientific > > > > and as > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and > logical " > > > > like > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it > is > > > > tropical > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this > sense I > > > > use > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of > 'tropical'shift. But > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of > stars at > > > > the > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is > not > > > > moving > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in > practical > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving > along > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system > is > > > > known as > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is > just a > > > > way of > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the > definiton > > > > of the > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is > both > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as > they > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that > the > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras > also > > > > become > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > too as > > > > an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the > months are > > > > not > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > it is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti > was at > > > > the > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, > talk of > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the > rashis. > > > > This > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > months > > > > and by > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar > months > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find > the > > > > names of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months > came > > > > along > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then > given > > > > only > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or > so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis > is > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > not? > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an > approximate > > > > manner > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are > thus > > > > non > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the > solar > > > > months > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied > the > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis > are a > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These > adityas are > > > > the > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months > without > > > > a > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, > evident from > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form > the > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of > the > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due > to > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating > lunar > > > > month > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a > very > > > > very > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the > tropical > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from > Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta > jyotish is > > > > non > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal > and > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied > with > > > > my > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it > > > > always has > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan > systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no > record of > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga > Jyotisham > > > > which > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you > there were > > > > no > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system > is both > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > months > > > > and > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or > so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your > answers. > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > not? > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you > make, > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their > English > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so > and so, > > > > as is > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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