Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Do it yourself, wash yourself negative ego, ... It's your choice that you liked to eat, drink and talk rubbish in the name of astrology. And at other time cry that he/she/they used to be serious/sincere astrologers in this or that time.... you deteriorate most of the groups. Your karma .... your Mind, Your obsessions .... for deteriorate in Rahu's manner !! , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Rahu is not created by motion, bade bhai! Rahu is created by intesection! Vishnu's chakra (perhaps lunar orbit) intersected the projected orbit of earth (astrological path of sun) and bisected the latter into two domains: The northern domain ruled by or represented by Rahu while the southern domain was ruled or represented by ketu. > > Next time you have your conversation with God, please ask on my behalf and bring back the Divine channeled answer to share with us great unwashed! > > In the meantime, we will reinforce the soapbox so that it can hold your weight! :-) > > Regards, > > Rohiniranjan > > , " utkal.panigrahi " utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > Exactly like Rahu ... Hmmm ! > > > > Rahu neither learns nor introspects ... lacks the ability, > > > > Disturbed Rahu still preaches .. still shows dambha and mada, Learn to > > pray for yourself.... Even Amrit couldn't help Rahu keeping it's > > integrity, integrity and Rahu, Morality and Rahu ... Rahu is gossips > > and time pass .... in the name of astrology.. > > > > No mercy for a rahu, always deserves a Sudarshan Chakra.... > > > > Rahu is created by motion ...... then how'z Sun and other planets ..... > > good fun @ astrology, keep going .... how long ? > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Are you okay, Dear Fellow? > > > > > > You sound very disturbed. > > > > > > Take it easy! Do not take internet soap-boxes too seriously :-) > > > > > > I will pray for your peace and stability! > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > , " utkal.panigrahi " > > utkal.panigrahi@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is envious, True , Rahu is Mada .... Madandha too !! > > > > > > > > Dos a scholar Like Sri AK Kaul need's advisors like Rahu .... Haa .. > > Haa > > > > > > > > Envious Rahu ..... Rahu doesn't learn, Even from Ketu ... > > > > > > > > Ketu who is burning the world ..... beware of Ketu, It's DhumraKetu > > > > indeed !! > > > > > > > > Utkal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > WOW! I am getting seriously envious of Avatar Kaul_dada! He bagged > > TWO > > > > GURUS in just a couple of days! > > > > > > > > > > But Wait! Maybe not! One of the two self-imposing Gurus just gave > > up > > > > on him! Now he has just one choice to make! Or none really! > > > > > > > > > > But seriously folks, I do not think Kaul_jee is looking for any > > Gurus > > > > [bRAVO!] but just some answers! > > > > > > > > > > All he has are questions! > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " hari " harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji, > > > > > > It is certain you will never get any further in your efforts for > > > > calendar reform. The reason is you never listen to others's > > opinion.My > > > > advise is you stop wasting other people's time by pretending to be > > > > serious about calendar reform, when you are not.If you are serious > > > > please listen to what others say and interact by giving your own > > opinion > > > > too. But you must first improve your vocabulary and know the > > meanings of > > > > the words used in calendar systems like sayan and nirayan. But I am > > > > afraid you do not want to do that either. > > > > > > So you will get no further with such attitude. > > > > > > good bye, > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain > > his > > > > view > > > > > > > poitn. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a > > Vedic > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from > > the > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only > > as > > > > per > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > > completely > > > > without > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided > > not > > > > to > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the forum in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me > > write > > > > an > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful. > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. > > These > > > > are > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before > > discussing > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries > > or > > > > ask > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars > > and > > > > the > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of > > talking > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, > > > > instead of > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from > > mine > > > > and let > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri > > Kaulji > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > > too > > > > as an > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > > it is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as > > > > proof > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with > > the > > > > year of > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about > > them > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar > > months > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent > > as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely > > a > > > > recent > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars > > are > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making > > it > > > > fit > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > are > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we > > > > come to > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our > > > > current > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic > > lore.The > > > > only > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar > > > > limits. > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in > > terms > > > > of the > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons > > with > > > > the > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject > > of > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ \ > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from > > you > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the > > > > stars > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > > too > > > > as an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > > it > > > > is not > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > introduction of > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent > > as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite > > sometime > > > > now > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, > > you > > > > have > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere > > you > > > > are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We > > are > > > > quite > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a > > calendar, > > > > which is > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a > > diminutive > > > > size > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash > > against > > > > the > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the > > size > > > > that > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You > > have > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to > > > > to > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and > > also > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that > > thing " > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most > > scientific > > > > and as > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and > > logical " > > > > like > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ \ > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is > > > > tropical > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this > > sense I > > > > use > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. > > But > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars > > at > > > > the > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is > > not > > > > moving > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in > > practical > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving > > along > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is > > > > known as > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just > > a > > > > way of > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the > > definiton > > > > of the > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is > > both > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras > > also > > > > become > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > > too as > > > > an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months > > are > > > > not > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was > > at > > > > the > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the > > rashis. > > > > This > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > > months > > > > and by > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar > > months > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the > > > > names of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months > > came > > > > along > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then > > given > > > > only > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > > not? > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an > > approximate > > > > manner > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are > > thus > > > > non > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar > > > > months > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are > > a > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas > > are > > > > the > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months > > without > > > > a > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident > > from > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form > > the > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of > > the > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating > > lunar > > > > month > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a > > very > > > > very > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the > > tropical > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta > > jyotish is > > > > non > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal > > and > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied > > with > > > > my > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ \ > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it > > > > always has > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record > > of > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham > > > > which > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there > > were > > > > no > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is > > both > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > > months > > > > and > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > > not? > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you > > make, > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their > > English > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and > > so, > > > > as is > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Krishen " <jyotirved@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri hari Malla had been given enough of chances to explain > > his > > > > view > > > > > > > point. It has become clear by now that he wants to prepare a > > Vedic > > > > > > > calendar, not on the basis of any pramans or parameters from > > the > > > > Vedas, > > > > > > > Puranas or other shastras, not even modern astronomy, but only > > as > > > > per > > > > > > > his " I think so " , " I do not know " , " I do not have the exact > > > > dates " , " in > > > > > > > my view " and so on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since his posts have become nothing but distractions > > completely > > > > without > > > > > > > contributing anything to the calendar reform, I have decided > > not > > > > to > > > > > > > allow any of his posts on the (HinduCalendar) forum in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar , " hari " <harimalla@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Correct dates of festivals in 2010-11 > > > > > > > Dear shri Kaulji,Darshaney lokeshji, A. Sharmaji, > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > Itwould be easier if shri Kaulji pointed out which points he > > > > disagrees > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > giving reasons for the same, rather than trying to make me > > write > > > > an > > > > > > > essay or a > > > > > > > book. So kindly do so, if our discussion is to be fruitful. > > > > > > > Pramanas are said to be diret perception, inference and apta > > > > vakya. The > > > > > > > meaning > > > > > > > of the words like sa-ayan or nir -ayan are direct meanings. > > These > > > > are > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > of the words themselves and must be known first before > > discussing > > > > > > > concepts from > > > > > > > them.If in doubt you are to look up it up in the dictioneries > > or > > > > ask > > > > > > > experts who > > > > > > > know rather than trying to find some mantras in ancient > > > > scriptures. > > > > > > > These words > > > > > > > could even be quite recent, after the difference of the stars > > and > > > > the > > > > > > > ayans were > > > > > > > detected.You are only tryig to do hair splitting intead of > > talking > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > essentials. So please say why you disagree of what is said, > > > > instead of > > > > > > > testing > > > > > > > my knowledge. Give your own meaning if it is different from > > mine > > > > and let > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > members also comment on the same.The points raised by shri > > Kaulji > > > > from 1 > > > > > > > to 4 > > > > > > > are all concerned with the definiton of the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > > too > > > > as an > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > the 29th sloka of yajur vedanga jyotish says about this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > > it is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > Is the above point not logical enough to satisfy inference, as > > > > proof > > > > > > > since Meesh > > > > > > > sankranti is said to be the VE and is taken for no other > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <7. " The rashis were in my view the cause of the introduction > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > Since vedanga jyotish had only approximate solar months with > > the > > > > year of > > > > > > > 366 > > > > > > > days, and the sidhantas which followed it had details about > > them > > > > > > > relating them > > > > > > > with the stars, what else can it be than the accurate solar > > months > > > > > > > coming along > > > > > > > with the rashis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent > > as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > Gregory " .> > > > > > > > The concept of moving stars along with the seasons, is surely > > a > > > > recent > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > to settle the anomaly, being not a natural thing. The stars > > are > > > > > > > naturally not > > > > > > > moving.to think they are moving with teh seaons is only making > > it > > > > fit > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > seasons artificially. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > sankranti.Adhimases > > > > are > > > > > > > lunar > > > > > > > months without a sankranti " .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to Kalmadhav treatise on 'adhimas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My request for other members also to join the discussion.So we > > > > come to > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > conclusion. I feel Shri Kaulji should first accept that our > > > > current > > > > > > > practise of > > > > > > > panchanga, in hindu calendar, is correct as per the vedic > > lore.The > > > > only > > > > > > > mistake > > > > > > > is in taking excessive ayanamsa when it has exceeded the lunar > > > > limits. > > > > > > > He should > > > > > > > also understand that the festivals are first celebrated in > > terms > > > > of the > > > > > > > luanr > > > > > > > tithis and they are also conected to the stars, the fullmoons > > with > > > > the > > > > > > > nakshyatras. > > > > > > > Kindly do not try making jokes but be serious with the subject > > of > > > > > > > discussion. We > > > > > > > are here to find the truth. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ \ > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " Krishen " > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had asked you specifically to quote pramans fromt the > > > > shastras, > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > the original mantras and their meanings, but all I get from > > you > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. " 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. " Nirayan is not moving with the seasons but fixed as the > > > > stars > > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > are, in practical sense " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. " When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > > (not moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal' > > > > > > > > 4. " I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > > > > applied " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. " There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > > too > > > > as an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. " I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that > > it > > > > is not > > > > > > > > much earlier than 285 AD " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. " The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > introduction of > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the solar months itself " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. " The sayan concept of rashis is recent. Perhaps as recent > > as > > > > Pope > > > > > > > > Gregory " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. " These adityas are the lunar months with a > > > > sankranti.Adhimases are > > > > > > > > lunar months without a sankranti " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have been hearing your views and opinions for quite > > sometime > > > > now > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > have never had any pramana from you! And to crown it all, > > you > > > > have > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > in the end of your post, " Please specify those places whaere > > you > > > > are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > stisfied with my answers " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who told you that we are not satisfied with your answers? We > > are > > > > quite > > > > > > > > satisfied with them that they are a hogwash and an effort to > > > > bamboozle > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > common man since you have a design to thrust down a > > calendar, > > > > which is > > > > > > > > neither based on shastras nor on modern astronomy, down the > > > > throat of > > > > > > > > Hindu community! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an anecdote: Some thugs found a coffin of a > > diminutive > > > > size > > > > > > > > vacant at some place. They just wanted to have some cash > > against > > > > the > > > > > > > > same. They therefore started a search for a corpse of the > > size > > > > that > > > > > > > > would fit that coffin. It is a similar case with you! You > > have > > > > > > > > designed a so called Hindu calendar, which has none of the > > > > ingredients > > > > > > > > of a Hindu calendar. Somehow, you jsut want " clients " to > > > > to > > > > > > > > the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep up your efforts. May be you will succeed one day, who > > > > knows! If > > > > > > > > Lahiriwals did succeed in convincing the Govt. of India and > > also > > > > > > > > jagadgurus and " his holiness of art of this thing or that > > thing " > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > etc. that their non-existent Rashichakra is the most > > scientific > > > > and as > > > > > > > > per dharmashastras, maybe you will also succed some day in > > > > convicning > > > > > > > > some people that your calendar is also " scientific and > > logical " > > > > like > > > > > > > > that of Lahiri's! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ \ > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " hari " > > > > > > > <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shri Kaulji, > > > > > > > > > Namakar! thank you for your careful quory. I will try to > > > > answeer to > > > > > > > > them equally carefully.We do seem to have different > > > > understanding of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > words we use and also the concepts. > > > > > > > > > 'Sayan' is going with the Ayan as I understand.Thus it is > > > > tropical > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > shifting with the precession of earth axis.It is in this > > sense I > > > > use > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > word, basically to indicate the concept of 'tropical'shift. > > But > > > > > > > strictly > > > > > > > > speaking,it is also used to assume that the circle of stars > > at > > > > the > > > > > > > > background also moves 'along with the seasons'. Nirayan is > > not > > > > moving > > > > > > > > with the seasons but fixed as the stars truly are, in > > practical > > > > sense. > > > > > > > > > When the stars are fixed in the true sense,the stars are > > > > nirayan > > > > > > > (not > > > > > > > > moving with the Ayan) or they are 'sidereal'.Thus both the > > > > rashis and > > > > > > > > the nakshyatras both being stars are in their true sense, > > > > sidereal or > > > > > > > > nirayan. But if we assume the circle of stars are moving > > along > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > seasons,say at 50.3 arc seconds per year,then that system is > > > > known as > > > > > > > > the Sayan system.From this angle both the rashis and the > > > > nakshaytras > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > be 'sayan' or tied to the seasonal shifting.But this is just > > a > > > > way of > > > > > > > > looking at the stars in a fictious manner for our own > > > > convenience, > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > they are not acutally moving at all. So much for the > > definiton > > > > of the > > > > > > > > words and the concepts. > > > > > > > > > Now going point by point: > > > > > > > > > <1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is > > both > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the concept of sayan and nirayan can equally be > > > > applied to > > > > > > > > nakshyatras too.If we think of them as fixed stars, as they > > > > truly are, > > > > > > > > then that system becomes nirayan. But if we assume that the > > > > circle of > > > > > > > > stars are rotating along with the seasons the nakshyatras > > also > > > > become > > > > > > > > sayan or moving with the Ayan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is mention of the solar months in Vedanga jyotish > > too as > > > > an > > > > > > > > alternative to the lunar months. But the names of the months > > are > > > > not > > > > > > > > mentioned and they seem to serve second priority to lunar > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know the exact date.But my assumption is that it > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > earlier than 285 AD, since at that time, Mesh sankranti was > > at > > > > the > > > > > > > > vernal equinox.Since the Sidhantas like Surya sidhanta, talk > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > rashis,the sidhantakars were the ones who introduced the > > rashis. > > > > This > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > all I can say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > > months > > > > and by > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rashis are basically solar based as the 12 solar > > months > > > > are 30 > > > > > > > > degrees each.The rashis were in my view the casuse of the > > > > introduction > > > > > > > > of the names of the solar months itself. We do not find the > > > > names of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > solar months in the Vedanga jyotish. Thus the solar months > > came > > > > along > > > > > > > > with the rashis in an accurate manner. The solar months of > > > > Vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish were only approximate (366 days) as they were then > > given > > > > only > > > > > > > > second priority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rashis are stars. Thus by virtue of that alone they are > > > > nirayan or > > > > > > > > sidereal in the natural sense.The sayan concept of rashis is > > > > recent. > > > > > > > > Perhaps as recent as Pope Gregory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > > not? > > > > Pl. give > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Mesh, Vrish were related to the seasons in an > > approximate > > > > manner > > > > > > > > in the sidhantas. Stictly these rashis are stars and are > > thus > > > > non > > > > > > > > seasonal. But since our system is basically lunar, the solar > > > > months > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > seasons which came with the sidhantas basically supplied the > > > > > > > sankrantis > > > > > > > > to control the lunar months. Thus the nirayan sankrantis are > > a > > > > > > > > precondition for the adhimases and the Adityas.These adityas > > are > > > > the > > > > > > > > lunar months with a sankranti.Adhimases are lunar months > > without > > > > a > > > > > > > > sankranti. Our system was always with lunar months, evident > > from > > > > the > > > > > > > > names of the months being Vaisakh, Jeshta,which come form > > the > > > > > > > > nakshyatras,which are lunar based, being 27 for 27 days of > > the > > > > > > > sidereal > > > > > > > > lunar month. The fact that the lunar months fluctuate due to > > > > adhimases > > > > > > > > over one month,there was always scope for the fluctuating > > lunar > > > > month > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > touch the sidereal uttaryan like sun in dhanistha or makar > > > > sankranti > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as the tropical uttrayan or the actual uttaryan for a > > very > > > > very > > > > > > > > long time indeed.The tithi thus coordinated both the > > tropical > > > > > > > uttarayan > > > > > > > > and the sidereal uttaryan. This is evident both from Vedanga > > > > jyotish > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as sidhanta jyotish. We thus cannot say sidhanta > > jyotish is > > > > non > > > > > > > > vedic since it continued the coordination of the sidiearal > > and > > > > > > > tropical > > > > > > > > dates by the respective lunar tithi as was done during the > > > > vedanga > > > > > > > > jyotish period. > > > > > > > > > Please specify those places whaere you are not stisfied > > with > > > > my > > > > > > > > answers.Thank you. > > > > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > <HinduCalendar/post?postID=pr2gSBmd7wDc0CuzdCaC2GZZUkhmV2QPihK1YB\ \ > > \ > > > > \ > > > > > > > KcaMchZpilYw45a8au1zG_SLzflwxSAfrNY695sJMUmpM0Mwr5pUjmtAE> , > > > > " jyotirved " > > > > > > > jyotirved@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <. Let us stick to our Vedic coordinative system as it > > > > always has > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > coordinative of both the sayan and the nirayan systems.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are on record to have stated that there is no record > > of > > > > solar > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > during the Vedic period or that of the Vedanga Jyotisham > > > > which > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > Yajur Jyotisham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By implication, it is clear that according to you there > > were > > > > no > > > > > > > > Mesha, > > > > > > > > > > Vrisha etc. rashis then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives rise to a few questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ho do you say that the " Vedic coordinative system is > > both > > > > > > > sayana > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > nirayana " when the definition of so called sayana and > > > > nirayana is > > > > > > > > applicable > > > > > > > > > > only to Mesha etc. Rashis. > > > > > > > > > > 2. When were the solar months introduced in the Hindu > > > > community, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramans for your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 3. When were the Mesha etc. rashis introduced in India > > and > > > > by > > > > > > > whom? > > > > > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > > > > give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 4. When were the Mesha etc. rashis clubbed with solar > > months > > > > and > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > whom? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 5. Were those Mesha etc. rashis, so called sayana or so > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > nirayana? Pl. give pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > 6. Were those Mesha etc. rashis related to seasons or > > not? > > > > Pl. > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > pramanas in support of your answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. do reply every point individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pl. also do give proofs for every statement that you > > make, > > > > quoting > > > > > > > > the exact > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit mantras, with their references and their > > English > > > > > > > > translation, > > > > > > > > > > instead of just parroting " Barahamihira " has said so and > > so, > > > > as is > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > habit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Ram! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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