Guest guest Posted April 9, 2010 Report Share Posted April 9, 2010 Well -- archeology is about unearthing objects and evidence after thousands and hundreds of thousands of years! Five months is hardly any delay from that perspective ;-) I am rather impatient, hence never participate in such forums in the first place. RR_, , " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote: > > Mr. Moderator, > > The following post No.9981 was sent by Shri Sunil Bhattacharjya/received by you on Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:31 am. > > I wonder why it was kept hibernating for as many as five months (almost!), since much water has flowed under the Ganges then literally, whereas my posts of much later dates---including the latest one of as April 3, 2010, have yet to see the light of the day. > > > > As it is obvious that there is extremely selective posting on Indiaarchaeology forum, it is no use continuing as a member. I am, as such, unsubscribing. > > Good bye. > > A K Kaul > > IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > Jyotirved has not replied where he found the makar rekha in thye Hindu shastras. He is trying to escape. > > Now let us see his present mail. > 1) > > < Again some uninformed people grudgingly say that the Bhagavad purana alone may be the fifth Veda.> > > > > ///// According to the Vaishnav Sampradaya, Srimad Bhagawata is the fifth Veda! I would not like to call them uninformed! ///// > > Mr. Jyotirved must give reference as to where the Vaishnav Sampradaya contested the statement of the Chandogya upanishad and also where that Sampradaya stated that the other puranas are not included in the fifth Veda. > 2) > > < It is something like Lord Rama telling Hanuman that if anybody can read only one Upanishad that must-read will be the Mandukya Upanishad.> > > > > //// It would be highly appreciated if proper references are given as to whether it is from the Valmiki Ramayana or some other work. ///// > > > > I thank Jyotirved for admitting his ignorance on this. He claims that he has read alll the shastras and how did he miss this important thing about the mandukya upanishad? Let him try once more to see the easily available literature himself or ask hir friends or ask hir Hinducalendar group members and .if he still does not find it then let him tell me and and I shall surely tell him that. > > 3) > As regards the verses from the Vishnu purana I have given the correct translation. As the verses were already quoted by Jyotirved himself with his wrong translation was there any need for me to give the verses again. Mr. Jyotirved shamelessly raising these flimsy grounds. Do you think that the interested members cannot find out the verses from your own mail and also from the Internet? > 4) > Friends please note that Jyotirved has not replied as to where he found the mention of Makar rekha in the Hindu shastras. Now to cover up his latest lie he is diverting your attention. This time he cannot escape. > > Mr Jyotirved you are caught. Plese let the members know where in the shastras you found the mention of the Makar Rekha. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, jyotirved <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > jyotirved <jyotirved@> > [VRI] Fifth Veda and the Uttarayana! > > Cc: vedic_research_institute , hinducalendar , " 'subash razdan' " <subashrazdan@>, indian_astrology_group_daily_digest , indiaarchaeology > Saturday, November 14, 2009, 5:35 AM > > > > Dear friends, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > Sheri Bhattacharjya has said,  " The Puranas have been called by the Chandogya Upanishad and the Brihadaranyak upanishad as the fifth Veda.†and let us compare this statement with another statement of the same gentleman,  " The Mahabharata tells us that one must study the Puranas and Itihasas before reading the Vedas.†> > Brihad Arnyaka Upanishad is a part of the Vajasaneya Brahmana of the Yajurveda, kanva Shakha. And the Vedas, including the Yajurveda, are supposed to be the works created/revealed by the Supreme much before Treta yuga, which is supposed to have been reigning millions of years back as per the Surya Sidhanta! On the other hand, the Puranas and the Mahabharata are works of much later dates---almost at the fag end of Dwapara Yuga, and the start of Kaliyuga, which is supposed to have started in 3102 BCE as per the same Surya Sidhanta that some people worship even today! > > It gives rise to a question like the eternal vexatious one,  " Did the egg come first or the henâ€Â? If the Vedas existed much before the start of the Kaliyuga, how could they have eulogized the Puranas? And if the knowledge of puranas and itihasas is a must before studying the Vedas, I wonder as to how many scholars there are around who have mastered the Puranas, itihasas and the Vedas! Besides, does it not mean that the Puranas existed even before the Vedas, because unless the Puranas were studied, the Vedas could not be! > > < Again some uninformed people grudgingly say that the Bhagavad purana alone may be the fifth Veda.> > > According to the Vaishnav Sampradaya, Srimad Bhagawata is the fifth Veda! I would not like to call them uninformed! > > < It is something like Lord Rama telling Hanuman that if anybody can read only one Upanishad that must-read will be the Mandukya Upanishad.> > > It would be highly appreciated if proper references are given as to whether it is from the Valmiki Ramayana or some other work. > > < The rashi is defined in the Vamana purana as containing nine padas (quarters) of Nakshatras, i.e, two and a quarter nakshatras.> > > Again, no references have been quoted! In any case, Vamana Purana is a much later work, like most of the other puranas. And the definition of rashis in most of the puranas is exactly as per the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha! That is the very first work that has clubbed nakshatras with rashis! So there is nothing new in the Vamana Purana that is not already in the Surya Sidhanta! > > < As the nakshatras are fixed so are the rashis by definition.> > > The first and foremost thing that is necessary is the definition of nakshatras! What are they? Groups of stars? How many are they in number? Are they equal to one another or not? If they are the groups of stars, what are the criteria of including the stars in a particular nakshatra! If the nakshatras have nothing to do with stars, then how do we know as to which part of the imaginary circle known as zodiac is a particular nakshatra? > > Regarding nakshatras being fixed, in the Yajurveda, Vedanga Jyotisha and the Atharva Veda etc. nakshatras start from Krittikas. They start from Ashvini in the Surya Sidhanta. As such, the definition of fixed has to be explained in detail since something can be fixed with reference to something else! If nakshatras are groups of stars, stars in themselves have Proper Motion. That itself negates the statement that nakshatras are fixed! Then again, if they started from Krittias at the time of the Vedanga Jyotisha, why do they start from ashvini nowadays? Have their starting points  " moved†or is it that our measuring yardsticks are different now? > > In fact, Rashis are imaginary divisions and they can be fixed or moving or stable or unstable etc. etc. depending on the jyotishi concerned! They have nothing to do with stars! And by implication, they have nothing to do with nakshatras either! > > < So no sensible person ever questions the use of the word Nirayana.> > > This is yet another funny statement! Nobody has quoted any shloka from any purana or any sidhanta, leave alone the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha or even Atharva-Veda- Parshishta or Atharva-Jyotisha in support of his/her claim that the use of the word nirayana is very old! In fact nobody can quote any such shloka that talks of the so called nirayana even by mistake, since we never had such controversies prior to the introduction of Grahalaghava of Ganesha Daivajnya! > > < Some unscrupulous people at some time in later-day history imagined the Rashis also to be moving according to the precessional movement.> > > Anything that is imaginary, can be moving or stationary or even moving-cum-stationa ry at one and the same time! It is common knowledge by now that Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis are nothing but  " twelve equal animals†of an  " imaginary circle of unequal animals†which were imported from Greco-Chaldean astrologers, in the early centuries of CE. However, if by  " moving rashisâ€Â, it is meant that the so called sayana Rashis, in which case Winter Solstice and Capricorn ingress start simultaneously, then I am afraid that all the puranas are  " unscrupulous†according to Shri Bhattacharjya himself, as we shall see shortly! > > Shri Bhattacharjya has give absolutely wrong translation of the shlokas of Vishnupurana from when he says  " Vishnu purana (2.8.28 - 31) says that the Northerly movement of the Sun begins when the Sun is in the Makar rash. Then the Sun moves to Kumbha and Mina and after passing through these three signs it goes to the Vishuvati (the equator) and makes day and night equal. Thereafter the nights go on diminishing and days go on increasing. After the end of Mithuna ie. in the Karkata rashi the day is the longest and then the southerly movement begins. > > Vishnu purana (2.8.67 - 68) again says that the equinoxes occur in the middle of the Sharad and the Vasanta seasons, when the Sun enters the Tula and Mesha rashis respectively and the days and nights become equal. The southerly movement occurs when the Sun is in the Karkata and the Northerly moveement occurs when the sun is in the Makara rashi†and has said in the end,  " Please note here that nowhere it says that the points are at the beginning of Makara and Karkata. In fact in Vedanga Jyotisha the points are in the Dhanishtha nakshatra in the Makar rashi ie towards the end of the Makar rashi†> > IT MUST BE NOTED THAT THAT I HAVE GVEN REFERENCES AND TRALSNATONS OF ALL THE RELEVANT PAURANIC AND SIDHANTIC MANTRAS/SHOLKAS IN MY BVB6.DOC AND HERE ARE SOME OF THE HIGHLIGHTS! > > The actual translation, together with the original shlokas, given by me, however, is. > > In paragraph 5 of the BVB.6 I have quoted Vishnupurana: 2/8/28-31 and 67-68 as saying, > > ayanasyotarasyadav makaram yati bhaskarah > > tatah kumbham cha menam cha rashe rashyantaram dvija (28) > > trishu eteshu atha bhukteshu tato vaishuvatim gatim > > prayati savita kurvan ahoratram tatah samam (29) > > tato ratrih kshayam yati vardhate anudinam dinam (30) > > tatashcha mithunasyante param kashtham upagatah > > rashim karkatam prapya kurute dakshinayanam (31) > >  " In the beginning of Uttarayana, the sun enters Capricorn (Makara Rashi) there from going to Kumbha and them Mina. After having passed through these three signs, it just gains vishuvati (equinoctial) speed resulting in the day and night being equal on Mesha. After that, nights start decreasing and the days increasing correspondingly daily. Then when the sun is in the end of Mithuna Rashi, i.e. when it is just at the verge of entering Cancer, the day is the longest then and Dakshnayana starts on that dateâ€Â. > > Sharad vsantyor Madhye vishuvam to vibhavyete > > Tula mesh gate bhanav samratri divam tu tat (67) > > Karkatavasthite bhanav dakshiyanamuchete > > Uttarayanam api uktam makarasthe divakare (68) > >  " In the midst of sharat ritu and vasanta ritu, vishuvas (equinoxes) take place with the entry of the sun into Tula (Libra) and Mesha (Aries) respectively and days and nights become equal on those two sankrantis. The entry of sun into Cancer (Karkata) is known as dakshinayana whereas its entry into Maraka is known as Uttarayana†> > …………………. > > It is thus clear that the Shri Bhattacharjya is deliberately neither quoting the original Sanskrit shlokas nor the translation given by me! > > Let us, therefore, analyze the original shlokas in a proper manner! > > It states,  " ayanasyotarasyadav, makaram yati bhaskarah†which means  " in the beginning of Uttarayana the sun enters Makaraâ€Â. Thus the very first part of the shloka clarifies that Makar Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana, the shortest day of the year, since the six months of Uttarayana start from that date! > > It states further,  " tatah kumbam chai meenam cha rashe rashyantaram dvija† " O Maitreya, after that it passes through Kumbha and Minaâ€Â.  " trishu eteshu atha bhukteshu, tato yati vaishuvatim gatim†which means,  " having thus crossed the three signs of Makara, Kumbha and Mina, it reaches the point which is known as Vishuva,†Then  " prayati savita kurvan ahoratram tatah samam†i.e.  " the sun reaches point which makes the day equal to night, which is known as Vishuva†In sixty-seventh mantra, it has been clarified,  " ttula mesh gate bhanav sama ratri divam tu tat†which means,  " when the sun is in either Mesha or Tula Rashi, the day is equal to nightâ€Â. > > In the 31st shloka, Parashara Rishi has said,  " tatashchai mithunasyante, param kashtham upagatah, rashim karkatam prapya kurute dakshinayanam†which means that after having reached the end of Mithuna and just at the ingress of the sun into Karkata, Dakshinayana startsâ€Â. – " Uttarayanam api uktam makarasthe divakare†On the ingress day of the sun into Makara, that is the day of Uttarayana†> > Shri SKB has said,  " Please note here that nowhere it says that the points are at the beginning of Makara and Karkata. In fact in Vedanga Jyotisha the points are in the Dhanishtha nakshatra in the Makar rashi ie towards the end of the Makar rashiâ€Â. > > What a brazen lie! The above quoted statements from the Vishnupurana are as simple, lucid and clear as is humanly possible and they correlate Karkata Sankranti to the starting day of six months of Dakshinayana, Makara Sankranti to the starting day of six months of Uttarayana, Mesh Sankranti to the day of Vishuva and Tula Sankranti to the day of Vishuva, again. They have made it absolutely clear that on the day of Makar Sankrnati, the day is the shortest, on the day of Karkata Sankranti day is the longest and on the days of Mesha and Tula Sankrantis days are equal to nights! > > THUS ANYBODY MANIPULATING THE TRANSLATIONS IS MAKING A FOOL OF A COMMON MAN FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THAT 99 PERCENT OF HINDUS DO NOT UNDERSTAND SANSKRIT AT ALL AND THE MINISCULE NUMBER THAT UNDERSTAND THAT LANGUAGE DO NOT HAVE THE GUTS TO QUESTION THE INTENTONS OF SUCH MISINTERPRETATION. > > (To be contd.) > > Jai Shri Ram. > > A K Kaul Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya <http://tech./mc/compose?to=sunil_bhattacharjya@> > [VRI] The Fifth Veda and the Uttarayana > @ <http://tech./mc/compose?to= > . com > Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 8:30 PM > > > Dear friends, > > There is misunderstanding among some people regarding what is the meant by the fifth Veda and what does it say about the Uttarayana. Let us see what these things are: > > 1) > The Fifth Veda > > The Puranas have been called by the Chandogya Upanishad and the Brihadaranyak upanishad as the fifth Veda. Vayu Purana tells us that before Vedavyasa divided the Vedas and the upanishads all the Vedas and the Puranas were together as a single Veda. When Vedavyasa found that it wast became almost impossible for any single individual to master all that is encompassed in the Veda, he divided and rearranged the original single Veda into five parts ie. the four Vedas (Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Veda) and the fifth Veda comprising all the Puranas together. The Mahabharata tells us that one must study the Puranas and Itihasas before reading the Vedas. Thus no one can afford to think the Puranas to be any lower than the Vedas. Again some uninformed people grudgingly say that the Bhagavad purana alone may be the fifth Veda. Nothing can be further from the truth. All the major puranas are important. However Padmapurana tells us that the Bhagavat purana is best among the Puranas. It is somehing like Lord Rama telling Hanuman that if anybody can read only one Upanishad that must-read will be the Mandukya Upanishad. That does not mean that one can ignore the other Upanishads. > > 2) > Uttarayana > > Before we discuss Uttarayana it is necessary to define what is " Rashi " , as that comes in the discussion on Uttarayna and also difine the word " Uttarayan " also. > > (i) Definition of Rashi > > The rashi is defined in the Vamana purana as containg nine padas (quarters) of Nakshatras, ie, two and a quarter nakshatras. Thus the ecliptic of 27 nakshatras are divided into 27 parts for 27 nakshatras and the ecliptic is further divided int 12 parts each called as rashi. The rashi contains two ans a quarter of rashis in each of them. Vamana purana tells us which are the nakshatras in which rashi. As the nakshatras are fixed so are the rashis by definition. These fixed rashis are called Nirayana rashis using a later-day word " Nirayana " ( Nih+ ayana, where nih means no and ayana means movement, though ayana has other meanings too). There term was not used in the ancient times as there wqas no need for that because everybody knew that rashis are fixed. That is how this word Nirayana has entered the vocabulary. We the Hindus believe that all the words have been coined at one time or the other except AUM or OM. So no sensible person ever questions the use of the word Nirayana. Some unscrupulous people at some time in later-day history imagined the Rashis also to be moving according to the precessional movement. These people call these rashis to be moving and not fixed and called the imaginary moving rashis as Sayana rashis ie Rashis with movement. If this type of audacity would have taken place in Lord Rama's time he would have had these people killed summarily. > > (ii) Definition of Uttarayana > . > Uttarayana comes from combination of the the words Uttara, which means North and Ayana, which means movement. Thus Uttarayana means the Sun's northerly movement. Similarly Dakshinayana means the southerly movement of the Sun, in the geocentric model of the Solar system. > > (iii) Uttarayana as described by the Fifth Veda > > Now having defined the Fifth Veda, the Rashi and the Uttarayana let us see what the fifth Veda says about the Uttarayana. > > Vishnu purana (2.8.28 - 31) says that the Northerly movement of the Sun begins when the Sun is in the Makar rash. Then the Sun moves to Kumbha and Mina and after passing through these three signs it goes to the Vishuvati (the equator) and makes day and night equal. Thereafter the nights go on diminishing and days go on increasing. After the end of Mithuna ie. in the Karkata rashi the day is the longest and then the southerly movement begins. > > Vishnu purana (2.8.67 - 68) again says that the equinoxes occur in the middle of the Sharad and the Vasanta seasons, when the Sun enters the Tula and Mesha rashis respectively and the days and nights become equal. The southerly movement occurs when the Sun is in the Karkata and the Northerly moveement occurs when the sun is in the Makara rashi. > > Please note here that nowhere it says that the points are at the beginning of Makara and Karkata. In fact in Vedanga Jyotisha the points are in the Dhanishtha nakshatra in the Makar rashi ie towards the end of the Makar rashi. > > Bhagavat purana 5.21.4 - 6) uses the word " Vartate " , which means toi stay. .It says that when the Sun is (or stays) in the Mesha and Tula the days and nights are equal and while passing through the five rashis from Vrishabha the days go on increasing and nights go on diminishing by one ghatika every month. When the Sun is passing through the five rashis from Vrischika there is viparyaya ie. ther is upset or the reverse occurs. In the Uttarayana the days increase and in the Dakshinayana the nights increase. > > Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.8.6- 8) also says the same thing. In Vishnu Dharmottara Purana (3.9.4 n- 5) the names of the seasonal months are given along with corresponding Sidereal months. You can very well notice that in the Vedanga jyotisha also the monh Tapa corresponded with the Siderael month of Magha. > > There is correspondence of the time periods in the puranas and the Vedanga Jyotisha as shown avove and this means they refer to what happened at the same period of time.. The critics of the Hindu Jyotisha want to say that the ancient Hindu astronomers did not know about precession and that the positions of the solstices and equinoxes given in the above puranas for a particular time has to remain the same for ever. It is simply the ignorance of these critics. > > Further for your information most of the Indian panchanga makers follow the Suryasiddhanta and Grahalaghava for their calculations and only for the absolute accuracy in the time (ie. for accuracy upto second) of the eclipses they take information from the Positional Astronomy Centre in Kolkata. Some ignorant critics unnecessarily mistakenly blame the honest Panchanga makers as taking all data from the modern astronomy centres and yet applying corrections there. Then some such critics blame about the different values of the ayanamasa corrections but have they quantified the effect of these variations of the ayanamashas? Hindu jyotishis have become theitr punching bags all the time,possibly at the behest of some foreign agencies > > In conclusion I wish to say that the Fifth Veda holds that the rashis are Nirayana or fixed and the Uttarayana referred to in the purana was true at the time it was incorporated in these puranas. Puranas by virtue of their five compulsory criteria had to update the history, which of course includes the astronomical informations at different times. Because of the changes due to the precession of the Earth the ancient astronomers recorded the solstices and the equinoxes occurring at different nakshatras at different times. > > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > Shri Hari Mall Ji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > I am surprised to see your #6447 of Oct 29 and the subsequent reminder of Nov. 3 that I must reply your earlier post of October 29 in Hinducalendar forum. > > > > You have asked a surprising question,  " Does it never occur to you that instead of makar sankranti being purely sayan, the Bhagavata puranas etc. could mean just that it is the nirayan sankranti (first day of the solar month of maagha, when the sun falls on nirayan makar rashi) which falls nearest to the sayan uttarayan, the actual shortest day, when it says 'makar sankranti is uttarayan†> > > > Are you really so ignorant of the facts in spite of my having clarified all the things hundreds of times or do have really something up your sleeves? > > > > Why can’t you understand the simple fact that sayana and nirayana terms are creations of jyotishis, by jyotishis and for jyotishis, and the word ayanamsha itself came into existence after tenth century AD when Munjala’s Laghumanasa appeared on the scene? > > Have you read any of the Puranas or even sidhantas yourself? No. You have not, since then you would not be asking such useless questions. You have not read even the BVB6.doc at all though I have circulated it several times on several forums. You are just trying to pick some threads from here and there like a drowning man trying to catch at a straw! > > > > In paragraph 5 of the BVB.6 I have quoted Vishnupurana: 2/8/28-31 and 67-68 as saying, > > ayanasyotarasyadav makaram yati bhaskarah > > tatah kumbham cha menam cha rashe rashyantaram dvija (28) > > trishu eteshu atha bhukteshu tato vaishuvatim gatim > > prayati savita kurvan ahoratram tatah samam (29) > > tato ratrih kshayam yati vardhate anudinam dinam (30) > > tatashcha mithunasyante param kashtham upagatah > > rashim karkatam prapya kurute dakshinayanam (31) > >  " In the beginning of Uttarayana, the sun enters Capricorn (Makara Rashi) there from going to Kumbha and them Mina. After having passed through these three signs, it just gains vishuvati (equinoctial) speed resulting in the day and night being equal on Mesha. After that, nights start decreasing and the days increasing correspondingly daily. Then when the sun is in the end of Mithuna Rashi, i.e. when it is just at the verge of entering Cancer, the day is the longest then and Dakshnayana starts on that dateâ€Â. > > Sharad vsantyor Madhye vishuvam to vibhavyete > > Tula mesh gate bhanav samratri divam tu tat (67) > > Karkatavasthite bhanav dakshiyanamuchete > > Uttarayanam api uktam makarasthe divakare (68) > >  " In the midst of sharat ritu and vasanta ritu, vishuvas (equinoxes) take place with the entry of the sun into Tula (Libra) and Mesha (Aries) respectively and days and nights become equal on those two sankrantis. The entry of sun into Cancer (Karkata) is known as dakshinayana whereas its entry into Maraka is known as Uttarayana†> > …………………. > > The Vishnu Purana by Parashara Rishi, the father of Krishna Dvaipayana Vedavyasa, has thus said in very clear terms that the sun enters Makar Rashi in the beginning of Uttarayana, and the day of Makar Sankranti itself is the shortest day of the year. As such, what is nirayana about it? In 67th and 68th shlokas Parshara Rishi has made it absolutely clear that when the sun is in Tula or Mesha it is Vishuva i.e. the days are equal to nights on those two days. What is nirayana about it? Similarly, he has said,  " When the sun is in karkata it is dakshinayana, the longest day of the yearâ€Â. Again what is nirayana about it?. How can you ever think of a so called nirayana mess in such plain and explicit statements of Parashara Rishi, which he is supposed to have made at the fag end of Dwapara Yuga, which is supposed to have ended at least 5000 years back? That means there was absolutely no chance of so called sayana coinciding with so called nirayana, as is supposed to have happened in 285 AD by Lahiriwalas and 390 AD by Surya Sidhantawalas and so on. > > > > IT IS ACTUALLY A REBUKE TO THE SO CALLED NIRAYANA ASTROLOGERS, WHO, ON THE ONE HAND, SWEAR BY BRIHAT PARASHARI OF PARASHARA RISHI BUT AT THE SAME TIME INTERPRET EVERY WORD OF THAT VERY WORK IN TERMS OF SO CALLED LAHIRI/RAMAN ETC. NIRAYANA RASHIS, WHICH ARE ACTUALLY CONSPICUOUS BY THEIR ABSENCE FROM EVEN THE VISHNU PURANA BY THE SAME PARASHARA RISHI! Hats off to such Parashara jyotishis! > > > > Now coming to Srimad Bhagavata, in the same BVB6.doc As you would be aware some people call it as  " the fifth Vedaâ€Â. > > Now Shrimadbhagavata, 5/21/4-6 > > yada mesh tulyor vartate tada ahoratrani samanani bhavanti yada vrishadishu panchasu cha rashishu charati tada ahani eva vardhante hrasati cha masi masi ekaika ghatika ratrishu (4) yada vrishchikadishu panchasu vartate tada ahoratrani viparyayani bhavanti (5) yavad dakshinayanam ahani vardhante yavad uttarayanam ratrayah (6) > >  " When the sun enters Mesha and Tula days and nights are equal on those dates and the day starts getting longer as compared to nights when the sun passes through Vrisha etc. five rashis then days keep on increasing and the nights decreasing by one ghati every month. (After the day and night have become equal on Tula Sankranti) the nights keep on increasing during the sojourn of five rashis of Vrishchika etc. In short, during Uttarayana days keep on increasing till Dakshinayana and after that nights keep on increasingâ€Â. > > > > Here Krishna Dwaipayana Vedavyasa has made it absolutely clear that day is equal to night when the sun enters Mesha or Tula Rashi. What is nirayana about these statements? > > > > Vishnudharmotarapur ana was supposed to be the authority for deciding the days of festivals etc. in India during the sojourn of Alberuni in eleventh century And this is what that Vishnudharmotara has to say, again, being quoted from BVB6.doc itself > > Vishnurhdarmotarapu rana 3/8/6-8 says > > tula meshagate bhanav vishuvad dinam uchete, > > dhanvato mithunantashcha ayane soasya dakshine, > >  " When the sun is in Mesha and Tula, they are the days of Vishuva i.e. days and nights are equal then. From the end of Dhanu (start of Makara) Uttarayana starts and from the end of Mithuna (start of Karkata) Dakshniyana starts†> > The same Vishnudharmotara has said in 3/9/4-5 > > …chaitro madhur-iti smritah, > > vaishakho madhavah proktah, shuchir jyeshthah udahritah > > shuklah proktastatha ashado nabhah shravan ishyete, > > praushthapado nabhasyashcha ishashch ashvayujah smritah > > urjakhyah kartikah prokto margshirshah sahastatha > > sahasya paush ityukto maghah syat tap eva cha > > phalgunashcha tapasyakhyo maso… > >  " (i) Chaitra is known as Madhu (or Madhu is known as Chaitra)! (ii) Vaishakha as Madhava; (iii) Jyeshtha as Shuchih; (iv) Ashadha as Shuklah (or Shukrah); (v) Nabhah as Shravana; (vi) Praushthapada (Bhadrapada) as Nabhasya; (vii) Ashvayuja (Ashvina) as Ishah; (viii) Urja as Kartika; (ix) Margashirsha as Saha; (x) Sahasya as Pausha; (xi) Magha as Tapah and (xii) Phalguna as Tapasya.†> > > > Why can’t you see that exactly on the pattern of the Vedanga Jyotisha, Vishndudharmotara has named Chaitra as Madhu and so on. IT THUS PROVES WITHOUT DOUT THAT THE RAMANAVMI I.E. THE FESTIVAL OF BIRTH OF BHAGWAN RAM MUST BE CELEBRATED IN THE MONTH OF MADHU, SINCE THAT IS JUST ANOTHER NAME OF CHAITRA. YOU MAY AS WELL SAY THAT CHAITRA ITSELF IS ANOTHER NAME OF MADHU. You must therefore understand it once for all there are no so called nirayana Magha or Chaitra etc. lunar months either! And obviously, we are not celebrating even Ramanavmi on correct days, thanks to the nirayana mess! > > > > What other proofs do you want from the Puranas that they had absolutely no idea about any so called nirayana Rashichakra? > > > > Now coming to the Surya Sidhanta, which I have quoted in BVB6.doc. and here it is what I have said > > Lest there be any doubt as to what type of Rashis the Surya Sidhanta is talking about, it makes it clear in Bhugoladhyaya, verses 57 to 62: > > meshadav to sada vridhir udaguttarto adhika > > devamshe cha kshapa hanir vipareetam tatha asure > > tuladav dyunishorvamam kshyay vridhav tayorubhe > > deshkranti vashan nitem tadvigyanam puroditam > > ayanante vilomena devasur vibhagayoh > > nadi shashtya sakrid ahar nishapi asmin sakrit > > tadantare api shashtyante kshayvridhav ahar-nishoh > > parto vipareeto ayam bhagolah parivartate. > >  " During the half revolution beginning with Mesha, there is always an excess of day to the north, in the hemisphere of the gods i.e. Uttarayana-- -greater according to distance north---and a corresponding deficiency of the night. In the hemisphere of the demons (Dakshinayana) , the reverse. In the half revolution beginning with Libra (Tula) both the deficiency and excess of day and night in the two hemispheres are the opposite of this. The method of determining them, which is always dependent upon situation (desha) and declination (kranti), has been before explained. > >  " There occurs once, at the end of the sun’s half revolution from solstice to solstice---( Uttarayana to Dakshinayana) a day of sixty nadis and a night of the same length mutually opposed to one another, in the two hemispheres of the gods and of the demons. In the intermediate region, the deficiency and excess of day and night are within the limit of sixty nadis beyond this sphere of asterisms (bha) revolves perverselyâ€Â. (Burgess’ translation) . > > Two things are clear from the above to even a layman with a bit of knowledge of geography of primary school level about the phenomenon of seasons: i) It is only around March 21 (Spring Equinox) Mesha Sankranti every year that day and night are equal and the length of day in the northern hemisphere starts increasing as compared to the length of night. > > As such, what nirayana are you talking about? > > > > To remove the cobwebs from the minds of people like you who deliberately keep on twisting every statement because of their ulterior motives, I had even quoted from TANTRALOKA of one of the greatest Shaiva Scholars, mystics and yogis of India viz. Acharya Abhinavagupta of tenth century AD, together with the Sanskrit commentary of Jayaratha of twelfth century AD, and here is that quote > > 6. To clinch the issue on the basis of Agama i.e. yogashastras, I will quote the master-yogi i.e. Acharya Abhinavgupta’s Tantraloka: 6/114-116 > > shatsu shatsu anguleshu arko hridayat makaradishu > > tishthan maghadikam shatkam kuryat tat-chotarayanam > > sankranti tritaye vrite bhukte chashtadashangule > > mesham prapte ravav punyam vishuvat par laukikam > > praveshe tu tulasthe arke tadev vishuvad bhavet > > Ih sidhi pradam chaitat dakshinayan- gam tatah > > The translation of these mantras, as per the commentary of Jayaratha is, (Linking yogic kriyas to seasons, it says,  " After every six ungalas from the hirdaya (the pranas go to) Makara etc. and make Magha etc. six such months from Uttarayana starting with sun’s transit into Makara. From Makra to Mithuna is Uttarayana and in Magha sun transits Makara Rashi so till Ashada when the sun transits Mithuna, Uttarayana lasts, After having crossed three sankrantis (of Uttarayana)–eighteen unglas of Prana --= vishuvat Sankranti arrives. Because on that day of Mesha sankranti the days and nights are equal throughout the world that is why it is known as vishuvat. When the sun enters Tula it is vishuva againâ€Â. > > I do not think that there should be any doubt now in anybody’s mind as to how we are being taken for a ride by these panchanga-makers. Or is it that those panchangakars themselves are being taken for a ride by someone else either knowingly or unbeknown to them? In either case, it is literally killing our dharma.†> > > > Here also Makara is the month of Magha! And both are Sayana since six months of Uttarayana start from the day of Makara Sankranti! And that is in twelfth century AD > > It means that whether it was 3000 BCE of the  " fifth Veda†or Parashara Rishi, or twelfth century AD of Acharya Abhinvagupta or Jayaratha, there was never even a whiff of so called nirayana mess in any of the documents that we have studied so far. What other proofs do you want? > > > > I wonder whether you have marked in the above quotes from the Vishnudharmotara or Vishnu Purana or Srimad Bhagavata or even Tantraloka etc. as to how meticulously they have replicated the intrinsic so called sayana rashis of the Surya Sidhanta! > > > > What other proofs does anybody want for the fact that Rashis in the Puranas etc. appeared only after the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha had appeared on the scene? > > > > Obviously, I have started doubting your intentions since in spite of such clear quotes from the puranas and other shastras and sidhantas, you are still talking of some non-existent so called nirayana rashis and nirayana Chaitra etc. months! Is that the service you claim to be rendering to Hindu dharma, since it is not only that you do not want the Hindu community to celebrate festivals as per the Vedic ethos, when there were no Mesha etc. rashis, but you are just deliberately and willfully ignoring the admonishments of Puranas and Tantra and yoga shastras, apart from Primary School level geography that if at all you have to choose Rashis for festivals etc., they have to be so called sayana! > > > > Jai Shri Ram > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2010 Report Share Posted April 10, 2010 Dear Shri Yashwant Malaiyaji, Many thanks for your response. As a matter of principle I never ask any Moderator as to why my posts have not been approved, but as this post from Shri Bhattacharjya was very old and *most probably* replied by me in detail, that is why I felt bad about it. Anyway, now that you have clarified the situation, I am rejoining the forum. With regards, A K Kaul PS I spell my full name as Avtar Krishen Kaul and not as Avtar Krishna Kaul. It is because Krishna is said to be a name of Draupadi, whereas Krishen is one of the names of Lord Krishna (!). However, that does not mean that I claim to be His Incarnation. No, not at all! AKK On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 3:59 AM, YMalaiya <ymalaiya wrote: > Dear Avtar Krishna Ji, > > I am just a humble volunteer who enjoys Indian archaeology. I have no > agenda of my own. > > Sometimes I am not sure about some of the posts and come back to them > later. > > I have just approved your post. > > I apprecitate your contributions. I realize that some members may disagree > or find your post offensive. However I think your posts have been thought > provoking. > > I have been curious about how you got into vedic astrology. > > In the past I have investigated some of the history of the Maga and Bhojaka > scholars, I know that some of the astrology/astronomy texts are attributed > to them. I have not explored phalita astrology myself yet. > > Yashwant --- On *Fri, 4/9/10, jyotirved <jyotirved* wrote: > > > jyotirved <jyotirved > Whimsical postings in some forums! > IndiaArchaeology-owner > Cc: hinducalendar , asthikasamaj , > akandabaratam , vedic_research_institute , > abhinavagupta , > Friday, April 9, 2010, 3:43 AM > > Mr. Moderator, > > The following post No.9981 was sent by Shri Sunil Bhattacharjya/received by > you on Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:31 am . > > I wonder why it was kept hibernating for as many as five months (almost!), > since much water has flowed under the Ganges then literally, whereas my > posts of much later dates---including the latest one of as April 3, 2010, > have yet to see the light of the day. > > > > As it is obvious that there is extremely selective posting on > Indiaarchaeology forum, it is no use continuing as a member. I am, as such, > unsubscribing. > > Good bye. > > A K Kaul > > IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Jyotirved has not replied where he found the makar rekha in thye Hindu > shastras. He is trying to escape. > > Now let us see his present mail. > 1) > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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