To Rafal - Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan (to Robert and Rafal)

[Guest guest]

Dear Rafal and Robert,

It seems clear that you both (Robert, for sure) find some sense of

gratification in the possibility of being able to discriminate the

existence of a higher power in/above Brahman. Of course, you have

cited classics to support this position. I cannot disagree with them.

To make my point, I must first present my own approach: My approach

to matters of spirituality is one of non-judgemental observation (as

best as possible - I keep trying to incorporate all viewpoints in

order to dispel my own notions). Consequently, as a non-judgemental

observer, I so far have not found any way to, at my present level of

consciousness, which I also find ALMOST ALL other people being at,

any way to distinguish in REAL TERMS between the Brahman-only concept

(?Adwaita?) and the Brahman+higher power concept (?Dwaita?) (I put

the questions marks because I am not an expert in either, in terms of

knowledge of the classics).

 

To be very specific, I dispute the notion that if there is a higher

power over Brahman, that there is any way to experience it before

experiencing Brahman. There seems to be the notion prevalent that

worshipping an image of " God " (or certain specific images of " God " )

somehow puts the worshipper in touch with the higher power over

Brahman. To me, this seems quite clearly false - I mean the notion is

false, not the higher power over Brahman (which I am not qualified to

comment). When one worships an image of God, the worshipper is

focussed and pointedly EXCLUDES everything from his/her consciousness

other than that image. However, Brahman is all inclusive and the

higher power over it must also be all inclusive. Consequently,

worshipping an image of God is NOT equivalent to worshipping the

higher power over Brahman. I dont mean to say that worshipping an

image of God is useless, it definitely has immense value in that the

act of worshipping itself, with all one's mental energy, detaches the

mental energy from objects of material desire. In that sense, this

kind of worshipping too leads one to Brahman. But not SPECIFICALLY

beyond. Beyond that, the territory is indescribable, except

between " people " who are already situated in Brahman.

 

So for this reason, I find the ATTACHMENT to either of the two

concepts: Brahman-only versus Brahman+higher power as ITSELF false.

The distinction between the two is inexperienceable in current state,

and it is IMPOSSIBLE to chart a path that leads to one and not the

other.

 

At least, this is what I have gathered in my own experiences and

readings. Please give us a little more detail on why Godhead must

ONLY have a " person " ality? To me, saying that Godhead has

a " person " ality is similar to saying that sunlight is red. The

statement is true but not complete. Well yes, sunlight is red (as a

prism readily breaks up and shows), but it is also violet and indigo

and blue and green etc. If you have a need to be attached to the

redness in order to get further in your path, yes it is red too. But

does redness describe it in totality? In the Gita, didnt Krishna show

his true form to Arjuna - did that true form only have " person " ality?

How do you, as you are, " worship " that true form in ALL its facets?

 

Hope this post is not perceived as offensive. It does not negate any

path, simply suggests that all paths only appear to be different,

which is why I am plucking up the courage to post it.

 

 

Sundeep

 

 

sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " <starsuponme

wrote:

>

> Dear Robert,

>

> Yes...I know all these things and thank You for your nice post.

>

> I suspected Advaita isnt so fast to understand as other person

presented it

> to be, therefore I am not satisfied by some easy but cheap

explanations and

> wanted to ask persons who live or understand it.

>

> I know that there were many instances from iskcon-devotee with bad

attitude

> of conquering everyone who is different, even the hindoos who live

and know

> this things in very good way. so this kind of actions threw light

on whole

> society, and of course suscpetibility of others about my intentions

is valid

> as these action wasnt so rare. BUT my motive was only informative

without

> any hidden desires.

>

> Regards

> Rafal Gendarz

>

>

> -

> " rkoch108 " <rk

> <sohamsa >

> Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:29 AM

> To Rafal - Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan

>

>

> Dear Rafal,

>

> Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu quoted the Garuda Purana in His teachings,

to

> establish that the essence of Vedanta, in all categories, is the

> Srimad Bhagavatam. Srimad Bhagavatam is thus the crown jewel of

Vedic

> literatures, described as " nigama kalpa taror galitam phalam, " or

the

> ripened fruit of the tree of Vedic literature. In that great text,

> the Supreme Absolute Truth is described and approached in three

> phases: first as Brahman, the illumination or effulgence of

Bhagavan;

> next, the paramatma, which is the localized and omnipresent form of

> Paramatma (note that " form " here refers to a personal form, or

> Svarupa); and finally, in his ultimately personal feature as

Bhagavan.

> Great sages thus understand the Absolute truth in this way, but do

> not separate the Brahman feature from the Paramatma, or Bhagavan

from

> either of Brahman or Paramatma: they are one, but distinctly

different

> from each other. Only the Supreme Personality of Godhead can be

> all-pervasive by way of His diverse energies (Brahman), while

> simultaneously remaining in his personal feature and engage in His

> Eternal Lila. To say that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is

> Brahman only, as is stated by some philosophers, is to ignore His

> ultimate feature which is not only personal, but also Sat-cit-

ananda,

> which means eternal, complete with full knowledge an bliss, and not

> subject to the influence of Maya or the illusory energy. That

Supreme

> Personality is the source of creation, and to understand Him in all

> features of His existence is the knowledge by which one no longer

has

> to repeat births and deaths in this world of Maya.

>

> Anyway, it is a need a compelling subject and one which every person

> serious about knowing the source of creation in all its attributes

> should engage in. I have gone over these subjects in much detail

with

> specific reference to Jyotish in my book, The Spiritual Dimensions

of

> Vedic Astrology, which you can order if you wish at my web site.

>

> Best wishes,

> Robert

>

>

> sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Rafal,

> >

> > There are books by Shankaracharya etc. But, if you ask me, the

> touchstone of Advaitic philosophy is " Yoga Vaasishtham " by Maharshi

> Vasishtha. Anybody interested in Advaita must read that book.

> Vasishtha teaches Lord Rama about the nature of creation, nature of

> dissolution, the nature of liberation and how to be a jeevanmukta

> (liberated while alive). He teaches Lord Rama hardcore Advaita. If

you

> master that book, you have mastered Advaita philosophy.

> >

> > I thought Swami Venakesananda (disciple of Swami Shivananda)

> translated it into English quite well.

> >

> > Unfortunately, I haven't come across any online material that I

liked.

> >

> > May the light of Brahman shine within,

> > Narasimha

> > -------------------------------

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > -------------------------------

> >

> > > Dear Bharat,

> > >

> > > If You have any good advaita material soft I would be grateful

to You.

> > > I hope You didnt recieve my mail in bad mood. No hard feelings.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > Rafal Gendarz

> >

>

>

*tat savitur varenyam*

>

[Guest guest]

Jaya Jagannatha,

Dear Sundeep,

Rather you making judgements on each other etc,or decided yu are

right or wrong, lets accept it is a personal thing/path ,isnt

everyone on a unique path of self realization of life,? Just because

I beleive this or that what does that mean to some catholic nun?

 

THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates

offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for

different cultures and religions we can.

The 12th rashi from AK in navamsa can have so many influences to it.

Also D-20 itself shows so much potential for variation,about ones

attitude,devotion etc.

So one is the same ! Thank-God.So there is no " ONE path " or God that

we ARE ALL rigidly following.(or not following)

Depends on our free will and individuality and our unique connection

to the universe.

Why dont you post your chart and show us your Isthadevata and

palanadeveta and give some astro analysis, as this is an astro forum.

I heard that some SJC people were compiling a number of charts of

catholics and others and showing ishtadeveta ,etc//as a good study.

For example at one time I did many buddists and inpersonalists chart

and many had Sun in the 12th house in rasi and as their ISthadeveta.

A big area of study as people from a wide variety of cultural back

ground consults an astrologer.

With regards,

Lakshmi

 

 

sohamsa , " vedicastrostudent "

<vedicastrostudent wrote:

>

> Dear Rafal and Robert,

> It seems clear that you both (Robert, for sure) find some sense

of

> gratification in the possibility of being able to discriminate the

> existence of a higher power in/above Brahman. Of course, you have

> cited classics to support this position. I cannot disagree with

them.

> To make my point, I must first present my own approach: My

approach

> to matters of spirituality is one of non-judgemental observation

(as

> best as possible - I keep trying to incorporate all viewpoints in

> order to dispel my own notions). Consequently, as a non-

judgemental

> observer, I so far have not found any way to, at my present level

of

> consciousness, which I also find ALMOST ALL other people being at,

> any way to distinguish in REAL TERMS between the Brahman-only

concept

> (?Adwaita?) and the Brahman+higher power concept (?Dwaita?) (I put

> the questions marks because I am not an expert in either, in terms

of

> knowledge of the classics).

>

> To be very specific, I dispute the notion that if there is a

higher

> power over Brahman, that there is any way to experience it before

> experiencing Brahman. There seems to be the notion prevalent that

> worshipping an image of " God " (or certain specific images

of " God " )

> somehow puts the worshipper in touch with the higher power over

> Brahman. To me, this seems quite clearly false - I mean the notion

is

> false, not the higher power over Brahman (which I am not qualified

to

> comment). When one worships an image of God, the worshipper is

> focussed and pointedly EXCLUDES everything from his/her

consciousness

> other than that image. However, Brahman is all inclusive and the

> higher power over it must also be all inclusive. Consequently,

> worshipping an image of God is NOT equivalent to worshipping the

> higher power over Brahman. I dont mean to say that worshipping an

> image of God is useless, it definitely has immense value in that

the

> act of worshipping itself, with all one's mental energy, detaches

the

> mental energy from objects of material desire. In that sense, this

> kind of worshipping too leads one to Brahman. But not SPECIFICALLY

> beyond. Beyond that, the territory is indescribable, except

> between " people " who are already situated in Brahman.

>

> So for this reason, I find the ATTACHMENT to either of the two

> concepts: Brahman-only versus Brahman+higher power as ITSELF

false.

> The distinction between the two is inexperienceable in current

state,

> and it is IMPOSSIBLE to chart a path that leads to one and not the

> other.

>

> At least, this is what I have gathered in my own experiences and

> readings. Please give us a little more detail on why Godhead must

> ONLY have a " person " ality? To me, saying that Godhead has

> a " person " ality is similar to saying that sunlight is red. The

> statement is true but not complete. Well yes, sunlight is red (as

a

> prism readily breaks up and shows), but it is also violet and

indigo

> and blue and green etc. If you have a need to be attached to the

> redness in order to get further in your path, yes it is red too.

But

> does redness describe it in totality? In the Gita, didnt Krishna

show

> his true form to Arjuna - did that true form only

have " person " ality?

> How do you, as you are, " worship " that true form in ALL its facets?

>

> Hope this post is not perceived as offensive. It does not negate

any

> path, simply suggests that all paths only appear to be different,

> which is why I am plucking up the courage to post it.

>

>

> Sundeep

>

>

> sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz " <starsuponme@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Robert,

> >

> > Yes...I know all these things and thank You for your nice post.

> >

> > I suspected Advaita isnt so fast to understand as other person

> presented it

> > to be, therefore I am not satisfied by some easy but cheap

> explanations and

> > wanted to ask persons who live or understand it.

> >

> > I know that there were many instances from iskcon-devotee with

bad

> attitude

> > of conquering everyone who is different, even the hindoos who

live

> and know

> > this things in very good way. so this kind of actions threw

light

> on whole

> > society, and of course suscpetibility of others about my

intentions

> is valid

> > as these action wasnt so rare. BUT my motive was only

informative

> without

> > any hidden desires.

> >

> > Regards

> > Rafal Gendarz

> >

> >

> > -

> > " rkoch108 " <rk@>

> > <sohamsa >

> > Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:29 AM

> > To Rafal - Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan

> >

> >

> > Dear Rafal,

> >

> > Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu quoted the Garuda Purana in His

teachings,

> to

> > establish that the essence of Vedanta, in all categories, is the

> > Srimad Bhagavatam. Srimad Bhagavatam is thus the crown jewel of

> Vedic

> > literatures, described as " nigama kalpa taror galitam phalam, "

or

> the

> > ripened fruit of the tree of Vedic literature. In that great

text,

> > the Supreme Absolute Truth is described and approached in three

> > phases: first as Brahman, the illumination or effulgence of

> Bhagavan;

> > next, the paramatma, which is the localized and omnipresent form

of

> > Paramatma (note that " form " here refers to a personal form, or

> > Svarupa); and finally, in his ultimately personal feature as

> Bhagavan.

> > Great sages thus understand the Absolute truth in this way, but

do

> > not separate the Brahman feature from the Paramatma, or Bhagavan

> from

> > either of Brahman or Paramatma: they are one, but distinctly

> different

> > from each other. Only the Supreme Personality of Godhead can be

> > all-pervasive by way of His diverse energies (Brahman), while

> > simultaneously remaining in his personal feature and engage in

His

> > Eternal Lila. To say that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is

> > Brahman only, as is stated by some philosophers, is to ignore His

> > ultimate feature which is not only personal, but also Sat-cit-

> ananda,

> > which means eternal, complete with full knowledge an bliss, and

not

> > subject to the influence of Maya or the illusory energy. That

> Supreme

> > Personality is the source of creation, and to understand Him in

all

> > features of His existence is the knowledge by which one no

longer

> has

> > to repeat births and deaths in this world of Maya.

> >

> > Anyway, it is a need a compelling subject and one which every

person

> > serious about knowing the source of creation in all its

attributes

> > should engage in. I have gone over these subjects in much

detail

> with

> > specific reference to Jyotish in my book, The Spiritual

Dimensions

> of

> > Vedic Astrology, which you can order if you wish at my web site.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > Robert

> >

> >

> > sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Rafal,

> > >

> > > There are books by Shankaracharya etc. But, if you ask me, the

> > touchstone of Advaitic philosophy is " Yoga Vaasishtham " by

Maharshi

> > Vasishtha. Anybody interested in Advaita must read that book.

> > Vasishtha teaches Lord Rama about the nature of creation, nature

of

> > dissolution, the nature of liberation and how to be a jeevanmukta

> > (liberated while alive). He teaches Lord Rama hardcore Advaita.

If

> you

> > master that book, you have mastered Advaita philosophy.

> > >

> > > I thought Swami Venakesananda (disciple of Swami Shivananda)

> > translated it into English quite well.

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, I haven't come across any online material that

I

> liked.

> > >

> > > May the light of Brahman shine within,

> > > Narasimha

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > >

> > > > Dear Bharat,

> > > >

> > > > If You have any good advaita material soft I would be

grateful

> to You.

> > > > I hope You didnt recieve my mail in bad mood. No hard

feelings.

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > > Rafal Gendarz

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > *tat savitur varenyam*

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Sundeep,

I guess I missed your post - Lakshmi responded to it, however, and so I

am able read your opinions.

You wrote:

> Dear Rafal and Robert,

> It seems clear that you both (Robert, for sure) find some

sense

of

> gratification in the possibility of being able to discriminate the

 

> existence of a higher power in/above Brahman. Of course, you have

 

> cited classics to support this position. I cannot disagree with

 

them.

To start with, I simply expressed opinions on the hierarchical structure

of duality and non-duality, i.e. Dvaita-Advaita vada as taught by Sri

Caitanya Mahaprabhu and my guru Srila Prabhupada. The only

gratification I get from this is simply the opportunity to repeat what

those great souls have taught. I have no ego or agenda in this

matter, and frankly on a forum such as this, I would rather discuss the

spiritual attributes of Jyotish anyway. Where did you get the idea

that what I wrote was judgmental?

But since you've raised the question: it makes little sense to me

that Brahman has no personal or conscious source (which necessities a

Supreme omnipotent and omniscient Personality), no more than there can be

sunlight without a Surya, or sun-god. Ever seen firelight or sparks

without a fire? If Sri Krsna says " Aham sarvasya

prabhavah, " [bhagavad-gita 10.8] or " I am the source of

everything, " [including all spiritual and material worlds] why would

you need to offer up some fancy or creative interpretation other than the

fact that the Supreme Personality is the source of creation, including

Brahman (His effulgence) also?

So rather than enter into these discussions - which by the way we had an

intense debate over on this or other SJC forum three years ago with no

apparent agreement being arrived at on either side - and arouse the

emotions of advocates of different spiritual philosophies, why not stick

to Jyotish? That way we shall all be enlightened and happy (I

think).

One final point: Those who have not received Diksa from a true

enlightened guru coming in a currently existing parampara, need not try

to enter into these kinds of debates, as their knowledge will be

incomplete anyway. We do not need Diksa to understand Jyotish, so

let us stick with our Siksa guru Sanjay Rath, and be happy with what we

shall understand. Let us leave the Vedanta to those who are

qualified for such discussions.

Best wishes,

Robert

At 11:26 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote:

Jaya Jagannatha,

Dear Sundeep,

Rather you making judgements on each other etc,or decided yu are

right or wrong, lets accept it is a personal thing/path ,isnt

everyone on a unique path of self realization of life,? Just because

 

I beleive this or that what does that mean to some catholic nun?

THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates

offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for

different cultures and religions we can.

The 12th rashi from AK in navamsa can have so many influences to it.

Also D-20 itself shows so much potential for variation,about ones

attitude,devotion etc.

So one is the same ! Thank-God.So there is no " ONE path " or God

that

we ARE ALL rigidly following.(or not following)

Depends on our free will and individuality and our unique connection

 

to the universe.

Why dont you post your chart and show us your Isthadevata and

palanadeveta and give some astro analysis, as this is an astro

forum.

I heard that some SJC people were compiling a number of charts of

catholics and others and showing ishtadeveta ,etc//as a good

study.

For example at one time I did many buddists and inpersonalists chart

 

and many had Sun in the 12th house in rasi and as their

ISthadeveta.

A big area of study as people from a wide variety of cultural back

ground consults an astrologer.

With regards,

Lakshmi

 

sohamsa , " vedicastrostudent "

<vedicastrostudent wrote:

>

> Dear Rafal and Robert,

> It seems clear that you both (Robert, for sure) find some

sense

of

> gratification in the possibility of being able to discriminate the

 

> existence of a higher power in/above Brahman. Of course, you have

 

> cited classics to support this position. I cannot disagree with

 

them.

> To make my point, I must first present my own approach: My

 

approach

> to matters of spirituality is one of non-judgemental observation

 

(as

> best as possible - I keep trying to incorporate all viewpoints in

 

> order to dispel my own notions). Consequently, as a non-

judgemental

> observer, I so far have not found any way to, at my present level

 

of

> consciousness, which I also find ALMOST ALL other people being at,

 

> any way to distinguish in REAL TERMS between the Brahman-only

concept

> (?Adwaita?) and the Brahman+higher power concept (?Dwaita?) (I put

 

> the questions marks because I am not an expert in either, in terms

 

of

> knowledge of the classics).

>

> To be very specific, I dispute the notion that if there is a

higher

> power over Brahman, that there is any way to experience it before

 

> experiencing Brahman. There seems to be the notion prevalent that

 

> worshipping an image of " God " (or certain specific images

 

of " God " )

> somehow puts the worshipper in touch with the higher power over

 

> Brahman. To me, this seems quite clearly false - I mean the notion

 

is

> false, not the higher power over Brahman (which I am not qualified

 

to

> comment). When one worships an image of God, the worshipper is

> focussed and pointedly EXCLUDES everything from his/her

consciousness

> other than that image. However, Brahman is all inclusive and the

 

> higher power over it must also be all inclusive. Consequently,

> worshipping an image of God is NOT equivalent to worshipping the

 

> higher power over Brahman. I dont mean to say that worshipping an

 

> image of God is useless, it definitely has immense value in that

 

the

> act of worshipping itself, with all one's mental energy, detaches

 

the

> mental energy from objects of material desire. In that sense, this

 

> kind of worshipping too leads one to Brahman. But not SPECIFICALLY

 

> beyond. Beyond that, the territory is indescribable, except

> between " people " who are already situated in Brahman.

 

>

> So for this reason, I find the ATTACHMENT to either of the two

> concepts: Brahman-only versus Brahman+higher power as ITSELF

false.

> The distinction between the two is inexperienceable in current

state,

> and it is IMPOSSIBLE to chart a path that leads to one and not the

 

> other.

>

> At least, this is what I have gathered in my own experiences and

 

> readings. Please give us a little more detail on why Godhead must

 

> ONLY have a " person " ality? To me, saying that Godhead has

 

> a " person " ality is similar to saying that sunlight is red.

The

> statement is true but not complete. Well yes, sunlight is red (as

 

a

> prism readily breaks up and shows), but it is also violet and

indigo

> and blue and green etc. If you have a need to be attached to the

 

> redness in order to get further in your path, yes it is red too.

 

But

> does redness describe it in totality? In the Gita, didnt Krishna

 

show

> his true form to Arjuna - did that true form only

have " person " ality?

> How do you, as you are, " worship " that true form in ALL

its facets?

>

> Hope this post is not perceived as offensive. It does not negate

 

any

> path, simply suggests that all paths only appear to be different,

 

> which is why I am plucking up the courage to post it.

>

>

> Sundeep

>

>

> sohamsa , " Rafal Gendarz "

<starsuponme@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Robert,

> >

> > Yes...I know all these things and thank You for your nice

post.

> >

> > I suspected Advaita isnt so fast to understand as other person

 

> presented it

> > to be, therefore I am not satisfied by some easy but cheap

 

> explanations and

> > wanted to ask persons who live or understand it.

> >

> > I know that there were many instances from iskcon-devotee with

 

bad

> attitude

> > of conquering everyone who is different, even the hindoos who

 

live

> and know

> > this things in very good way. so this kind of actions threw

 

light

> on whole

> > society, and of course suscpetibility of others about my

intentions

> is valid

> > as these action wasnt so rare. BUT my motive was only

informative

> without

> > any hidden desires.

> >

> > Regards

> > Rafal Gendarz

> >

> >

> > -

> > " rkoch108 " <rk@>

> > <sohamsa >

> > Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:29 AM

> > To Rafal - Brahman, Paramatma, and

Bhagavan

> >

> >

> > Dear Rafal,

> >

> > Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu quoted the Garuda Purana in His

teachings,

> to

> > establish that the essence of Vedanta, in all categories, is

the

> > Srimad Bhagavatam. Srimad Bhagavatam is thus the crown

jewel of

> Vedic

> > literatures, described as " nigama kalpa taror galitam

phalam, "

or

> the

> > ripened fruit of the tree of Vedic literature. In that

great

text,

> > the Supreme Absolute Truth is described and approached in

three

> > phases: first as Brahman, the illumination or effulgence of

 

> Bhagavan;

> > next, the paramatma, which is the localized and omnipresent

form

of

> > Paramatma (note that " form " here refers to a personal

form, or

> > Svarupa); and finally, in his ultimately personal feature as

 

> Bhagavan.

> > Great sages thus understand the Absolute truth in this

way, but

do

> > not separate the Brahman feature from the Paramatma, or

Bhagavan

> from

> > either of Brahman or Paramatma: they are one, but distinctly

 

> different

> > from each other. Only the Supreme Personality of Godhead

can be

> > all-pervasive by way of His diverse energies (Brahman),

while

> > simultaneously remaining in his personal feature and engage in

 

His

> > Eternal Lila. To say that the Supreme Personality of

Godhead is

> > Brahman only, as is stated by some philosophers, is to ignore

His

> > ultimate feature which is not only personal, but also

Sat-cit-

> ananda,

> > which means eternal, complete with full knowledge an bliss, and

 

not

> > subject to the influence of Maya or the illusory energy.

That

> Supreme

> > Personality is the source of creation, and to understand Him in

 

all

> > features of His existence is the knowledge by which one no

 

longer

> has

> > to repeat births and deaths in this world of Maya.

> >

> > Anyway, it is a need a compelling subject and one which every

 

person

> > serious about knowing the source of creation in all its

attributes

> > should engage in. I have gone over these subjects in much

 

detail

> with

> > specific reference to Jyotish in my book, The Spiritual

Dimensions

> of

> > Vedic Astrology, which you can order if you wish at my web

site.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > Robert

> >

> >

> > sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R.

Rao " <pvr@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Rafal,

> > >

> > > There are books by Shankaracharya etc. But, if you ask me,

the

> > touchstone of Advaitic philosophy is " Yoga

Vaasishtham " by

Maharshi

> > Vasishtha. Anybody interested in Advaita must read that

book.

> > Vasishtha teaches Lord Rama about the nature of creation,

nature

of

> > dissolution, the nature of liberation and how to be a

jeevanmukta

> > (liberated while alive). He teaches Lord Rama hardcore Advaita.

 

If

> you

> > master that book, you have mastered Advaita philosophy.

> > >

> > > I thought Swami Venakesananda (disciple of Swami

Shivananda)

> > translated it into English quite well.

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, I haven't come across any online material

that

I

> liked.

> > >

> > > May the light of Brahman shine within,

> > > Narasimha

> > >

------------------------------

-

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3):

 

http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows):

 

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website:

 

http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > >

------------------------------

-

> > >

> > > > Dear Bharat,

> > > >

> > > > If You have any good advaita material soft I would be

 

grateful

> to You.

> > > > I hope You didnt recieve my mail in bad mood. No hard

 

feelings.

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > > Rafal Gendarz

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > *tat savitur varenyam*

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Lakshmi,

I think you misunderstand me if you think I made a judgement on

anyone. My position in the area of Adwaita vs Dwaita is actually

a " dont know " and I was simply trying to establish why " dont know " is

the only thing one can logically conclude without actual experience.

 

My chart (rectified by Zoran), for the record, is:

29June1967, 78E46, 22N12, 23:00pm, GMT+5:30

 

I have several charakaraka replacements - 6 in all, (AK, AmK, BK) and

(PK, GK, DK) lots of heavy debt and other problems. And Sun does

appear to be my Ishta, but then with all these replacements, which I

seem to be feeling especially in the past few years, nothing makes

too much sense anymore. So predictive attempts might not be too

fruitful.

 

Thanks

 

Sundeep

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert,

I'm sorry that I appear to be touching a sensitive issue for both

sides of the camp. You're correct, I dont have a Diksha Guru and this

is an astrology group. I'll let it rest... Perhaps I'll just try to get

yr book to get a deeper understanding on the astrology of these

matters..

 

Apologies,

 

Sundeep

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

Dear Sundeep,

Your chart is incredible, you have some significant placements to

deal with, also ive never seen so many Charakaraka replacements.

If you are aquarious rising please confirm.

If this is so, first thing I'd recommend is leave your homeland in

case you havent already. PLease tell me if you live in a land

foreign to where you were raised.I think your luck can change

significantly by leaving your homeland. Also Middle age will be

better for you.

Please tell me, do you do any writing or such thing?

Since you have no planets in kendras, best to look at chandra lagna.

and AL chart in your case.From AL thre are good possiblites.

(Sanjay also taught last year that when 8th lord is in 5th house,

person can go to teach in foreign land)

If you dont mind teach us about your chart.

thank-you.

Lakshmi

 

sohamsa , " vedicastrostudent "

<vedicastrostudent wrote:

>

> Dear Lakshmi,

> I think you misunderstand me if you think I made a judgement on

> anyone. My position in the area of Adwaita vs Dwaita is actually

> a " dont know " and I was simply trying to establish why " dont know "

is

> the only thing one can logically conclude without actual

experience.

>

> My chart (rectified by Zoran), for the record, is:

> 29June1967, 78E46, 22N12, 23:00pm, GMT+5:30

>

> I have several charakaraka replacements - 6 in all, (AK, AmK, BK)

and

> (PK, GK, DK) lots of heavy debt and other problems. And Sun does

> appear to be my Ishta, but then with all these replacements, which

I

> seem to be feeling especially in the past few years, nothing makes

> too much sense anymore. So predictive attempts might not be too

> fruitful.

>

> Thanks

>

> Sundeep

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Lakshmi,

Yes, I'm Aq rising. I posted on about my debt problems

and got some responses. And yes, I was born in India and I'm in the

US for the past 17 yrs. I'm a software engineer by profession, with a

few degrees, due to which I have some publications, all before 1996

(when I was in grad school). Other than that I have not written

anything else.

 

Since you mention AL, my JHora calculated AL, which is Aries with

Rahu in it, with 35 bindus, doesnt seem accurate to me. It does not

seem consistent with my image, which is of an analytical somewhat

aloof person. It is much more consistent with Ge (with Sun & Me in

the 5th). Sunil John took a look at this info and agreed that it

might be Ge. What seemed to be decisive in this regard was that my

windfall (due to the .com rise) came in the early 2000 timeframe, in

Ve-Su, when I was worth well into 7 figures. At this time, all

planets were transiting Ar. So with the Ge AL, this corresponds to

all planets in 11th from AL. For the Ar AL, it corresponds to AL.

When the planets moved out of Ar, and my Ve-Mo came along, I swung

the other way, lost everything and went almost 7 figures in the red

which is about where I am today, with debt payments suddenly

threatening to overwhelm me with Bernanke (the Fed chairman)

consistently hiking up rates.

 

Other things about me: Moved around a lot in life - born in one state

in India, moved from there to another state, then moved to Nigeria,

West Africa at the age of 5, moved within there about 3 times in the

next 6 yrs, then moved to India where things were relatively stable

(although I did move about 3 times there as well) and then I moved to

the US, where I have moved around a bit as well, but things have been

somewhat stable for the past 10 yrs, but only in perception as I'm

constantly expecting to lose my house (and my job, and a few other

things as well).

 

The only area of life that has consistently brought me relief is

education and intellectual pursuit. Also have been totally atheistic

until my Ve (AK) dasa, when I remained atheistic until literally

brought to my knees. Then around 2002 (after my Pi Narayan dasa

started) and after my wife had a couple of miscarriages (late 2002),

I was inexorably drawn into spiritual thought. Before the

conception/birth of my son in nov 2003 (my second child, first in

April 2001 a daughter), this noticeably increased, without conscious

effort on my part (lots of dreams etc).

 

My chart says that my Ve AK is to be replaced by Mars and then

eventually a retrograde Me in the 5th. My AmK is to change from Mars

to an exalted Ju. My BK is to change to Mars. I dont know exactly how

to interpret these changes, although I can say that while I was

earlier definitely focussed on education and profession, now nothing

seems desirable anymore (i.e. career goals etc).

 

The other set of replacements: PK, GK, DK, I assume my Sun PK will

get replaced by Ju and then Mo, and my GK I believe will become Ra

and my DK Venus. I dont know how to interpret these changes, but

without going into too much detail, relationships have always been

hard for me, thats for sure. Raising kids as well has been stressful

although kids themselves appear to be very intelligent.

 

 

Hope this stimulates some discussion. I'm always read to hear things

about my chart, especially these days. I have a strong gut feeling

that before the end of this year I'm going to go through a lot more..

 

Sundeep

 

 

sohamsa , " lakshmikary " <lakshmikary wrote:

>

> Hare Krishna

> Dear Sundeep,

> Your chart is incredible, you have some significant placements to

> deal with, also ive never seen so many Charakaraka replacements.

> If you are aquarious rising please confirm.

> If this is so, first thing I'd recommend is leave your homeland in

> case you havent already. PLease tell me if you live in a land

> foreign to where you were raised.I think your luck can change

> significantly by leaving your homeland. Also Middle age will be

> better for you.

> Please tell me, do you do any writing or such thing?

> Since you have no planets in kendras, best to look at chandra lagna.

> and AL chart in your case.From AL thre are good possiblites.

> (Sanjay also taught last year that when 8th lord is in 5th house,

> person can go to teach in foreign land)

> If you dont mind teach us about your chart.

> thank-you.

> Lakshmi

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear List,

I must agree with Robert here.

I appreciate that everyone has (varying degrees of) interest in spiritual discussions. But this is not the right forum for that.

Please read Robert's book if you are interested in the spiritual dimensions of jyotish. I highly recommend that to all.

Best wishes

Kasim

 

 

 

Robert Koch <rksohamsa To: sohamsa Subject: Re: Re: To Rafal - Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan (to Robert and Rafal)Wed, 31 May 2006 12:07:28 -0700Dear Sundeep, I guess I missed your post - Lakshmi responded to it, however, and so I am able read your opinions. You wrote: > Dear Rafal and Robert,> It seems clear that you both (Robert, for sure) find some sense of > gratification in the possibility of being able to discriminate the > existence of a higher power in/above Brahman. Of course, you have > cited classics to support this position. I cannot disagree with them. To start with, I simply expressed opinions on the hierarchical structure of duality and non-duality, i.e. Dvaita-Advaita vada as taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and my guru Srila Prabhupada. The only gratification I get from this is simply the opportunity to repeat what those great souls have taught. I have no ego or agenda in this matter, and frankly on a forum such as this, I would rather discuss the spiritual attributes of Jyotish anyway. Where did you get the idea that what I wrote was judgmental? But since you've raised the question: it makes little sense to me that Brahman has no personal or conscious source (which necessities a Supreme omnipotent and omniscient Personality), no more than there can be sunlight without a Surya, or sun-god. Ever seen firelight or sparks without a fire? If Sri Krsna says "Aham sarvasya prabhavah," [bhagavad-gita 10.8] or "I am the source of everything," [including all spiritual and material worlds] why would you need to offer up some fancy or creative interpretation other than the fact that the Supreme Personality is the source of creation, including Brahman (His effulgence) also? So rather than enter into these discussions - which by the way we had an intense debate over on this or other SJC forum three years ago with no apparent agreement being arrived at on either side - and arouse the emotions of advocates of different spiritual philosophies, why not stick to Jyotish? That way we shall all be enlightened and happy (I think). One final point: Those who have not received Diksa from a true enlightened guru coming in a currently existing parampara, need not try to enter into these kinds of debates, as their knowledge will be incomplete anyway. We do not need Diksa to understand Jyotish, so let us stick with our Siksa guru Sanjay Rath, and be happy with what we shall understand. Let us leave the Vedanta to those who are qualified for such discussions. Best wishes,RobertAt 11:26 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote:

Jaya Jagannatha,Dear Sundeep,Rather you making judgements on each other etc,or decided yu are right or wrong, lets accept it is a personal thing/path ,isnt everyone on a unique path of self realization of life,? Just because I beleive this or that what does that mean to some catholic nun?THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for different cultures and religions we can.The 12th rashi from AK in navamsa can have so many influences to it.Also D-20 itself shows so much potential for variation,about ones attitude,devotion etc.So one is the same ! Thank-God.So there is no "ONE path" or God that we ARE ALL rigidly following.(or not following)Depends on our free will and individuality and our unique connection to the universe.Why dont you post your chart and show us your Isthadevata and palanadeveta and give some astro analysis, as this is an astro forum.I heard that some SJC people were compiling a number of charts of catholics and others and showing ishtadeveta ,etc//as a good study.For example at one time I did many buddists and inpersonalists chart and many had Sun in the 12th house in rasi and as their ISthadeveta.A big area of study as people from a wide variety of cultural back ground consults an astrologer.With regards,Lakshmisohamsa , "vedicastrostudent" <vedicastrostudent wrote:>> Dear Rafal and Robert,> It seems clear that you both (Robert, for sure) find some sense of > gratification in the possibility of being able to discriminate the > existence of a higher power in/above Brahman. Of course, you have > cited classics to support this position. I cannot disagree with them. > To make my point, I must first present my own approach: My approach > to matters of spirituality is one of non-judgemental observation (as > best as possible - I keep trying to incorporate all viewpoints in > order to dispel my own notions). Consequently, as a non-judgemental > observer, I so far have not found any way to, at my present level of > consciousness, which I also find ALMOST ALL other people being at, > any way to distinguish in REAL TERMS between the Brahman-only concept > (?Adwaita?) and the Brahman+higher power concept (?Dwaita?) (I put > the questions marks because I am not an expert in either, in terms of > knowledge of the classics).> > To be very specific, I dispute the notion that if there is a higher > power over Brahman, that there is any way to experience it before > experiencing Brahman. There seems to be the notion prevalent that > worshipping an image of "God" (or certain specific images of "God") > somehow puts the worshipper in touch with the higher power over > Brahman. To me, this seems quite clearly false - I mean the notion is > false, not the higher power over Brahman (which I am not qualified to > comment). When one worships an image of God, the worshipper is > focussed and pointedly EXCLUDES everything from his/her consciousness > other than that image. However, Brahman is all inclusive and the > higher power over it must also be all inclusive. Consequently, > worshipping an image of God is NOT equivalent to worshipping the > higher power over Brahman. I dont mean to say that worshipping an > image of God is useless, it definitely has immense value in that the > act of worshipping itself, with all one's mental energy, detaches the > mental energy from objects of material desire. In that sense, this > kind of worshipping too leads one to Brahman. But not SPECIFICALLY > beyond. Beyond that, the territory is indescribable, except > between "people" who are already situated in Brahman. > > So for this reason, I find the ATTACHMENT to either of the two > concepts: Brahman-only versus Brahman+higher power as ITSELF false. > The distinction between the two is inexperienceable in current state, > and it is IMPOSSIBLE to chart a path that leads to one and not the > other. > > At least, this is what I have gathered in my own experiences and > readings. Please give us a little more detail on why Godhead must > ONLY have a "person"ality? To me, saying that Godhead has > a "person"ality is similar to saying that sunlight is red. The > statement is true but not complete. Well yes, sunlight is red (as a > prism readily breaks up and shows), but it is also violet and indigo > and blue and green etc. If you have a need to be attached to the > redness in order to get further in your path, yes it is red too. But > does redness describe it in totality? In the Gita, didnt Krishna show > his true form to Arjuna - did that true form only have "person"ality? > How do you, as you are, "worship" that true form in ALL its facets?> > Hope this post is not perceived as offensive. It does not negate any > path, simply suggests that all paths only appear to be different, > which is why I am plucking up the courage to post it.> > > Sundeep> > > sohamsa , "Rafal Gendarz" <starsuponme@> > wrote:> >> > Dear Robert,> > > > Yes...I know all these things and thank You for your nice post.> > > > I suspected Advaita isnt so fast to understand as other person > presented it > > to be, therefore I am not satisfied by some easy but cheap > explanations and > > wanted to ask persons who live or understand it.> > > > I know that there were many instances from iskcon-devotee with bad > attitude > > of conquering everyone who is different, even the hindoos who live > and know > > this things in very good way. so this kind of actions threw light > on whole > > society, and of course suscpetibility of others about my intentions > is valid > > as these action wasnt so rare. BUT my motive was only informative > without > > any hidden desires.> > > > Regards> > Rafal Gendarz> > > > > > - > > "rkoch108" <rk@>> > <sohamsa >> > Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:29 AM> > To Rafal - Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan> > > > > > Dear Rafal,> > > > Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu quoted the Garuda Purana in His teachings, > to> > establish that the essence of Vedanta, in all categories, is the> > Srimad Bhagavatam. Srimad Bhagavatam is thus the crown jewel of > Vedic> > literatures, described as "nigama kalpa taror galitam phalam," or > the> > ripened fruit of the tree of Vedic literature. In that great text,> > the Supreme Absolute Truth is described and approached in three> > phases: first as Brahman, the illumination or effulgence of > Bhagavan;> > next, the paramatma, which is the localized and omnipresent form of> > Paramatma (note that "form" here refers to a personal form, or> > Svarupa); and finally, in his ultimately personal feature as > Bhagavan.> > Great sages thus understand the Absolute truth in this way, but do> > not separate the Brahman feature from the Paramatma, or Bhagavan > from> > either of Brahman or Paramatma: they are one, but distinctly > different> > from each other. Only the Supreme Personality of Godhead can be> > all-pervasive by way of His diverse energies (Brahman), while> > simultaneously remaining in his personal feature and engage in His> > Eternal Lila. To say that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is> > Brahman only, as is stated by some philosophers, is to ignore His> > ultimate feature which is not only personal, but also Sat-cit-> ananda,> > which means eternal, complete with full knowledge an bliss, and not> > subject to the influence of Maya or the illusory energy. That > Supreme> > Personality is the source of creation, and to understand Him in all> > features of His existence is the knowledge by which one no longer > has> > to repeat births and deaths in this world of Maya.> > > > Anyway, it is a need a compelling subject and one which every person> > serious about knowing the source of creation in all its attributes> > should engage in. I have gone over these subjects in much detail > with> > specific reference to Jyotish in my book, The Spiritual Dimensions > of> > Vedic Astrology, which you can order if you wish at my web site.> > > > Best wishes,> > Robert> > > > > > sohamsa , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Rafal,> > >> > > There are books by Shankaracharya etc. But, if you ask me, the> > touchstone of Advaitic philosophy is "Yoga Vaasishtham" by Maharshi> > Vasishtha. Anybody interested in Advaita must read that book.> > Vasishtha teaches Lord Rama about the nature of creation, nature of> > dissolution, the nature of liberation and how to be a jeevanmukta> > (liberated while alive). He teaches Lord Rama hardcore Advaita. If > you> > master that book, you have mastered Advaita philosophy.> > >> > > I thought Swami Venakesananda (disciple of Swami Shivananda)> > translated it into English quite well.> > >> > > Unfortunately, I haven't come across any online material that I > liked.> > >> > > May the light of Brahman shine within,> > > Narasimha> > > -------------------------------> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> > > -------------------------------> > >> > > > Dear Bharat,> > > >> > > > If You have any good advaita material soft I would be grateful > to You.> > > > I hope You didnt recieve my mail in bad mood. No hard feelings.> > > >> > > > Regards> > > > Rafal Gendarz> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam*> >