What Parasara Advocates...

June 2, 2006

Dear Lakshmi,

I appreciate what you wrote in your mail. But, I want to strike a different note on the following thing you wrote:

> THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates > offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for > different cultures and religions we can.

[background for non-SJC people: In the SJC tradition, the devata corresponding to a planet in the 12th house from AK in navamsa is called ishta devata and supposed to take one towards moksha.]

Can you please quote the verse in which Parasara advocates offering a Vishnu form for ishtadevata? I missed that verse when I studied BPHS.

Parasara did associate planets with Vishnu's avataras at the beginning of BPHS. But, as far as I know, Parsara he did not talk about Vishnu's avataras when he talked about worshipping a devata based on the planets in the 12th house from karakamsa.

The following verses are from the 33rd chapter in BPHS (on Karakamsa):

kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthAne svabhochchasthe shubhagrahe |

sad.hgatirjAyate tasya shubhalokamavApnuyAt.h || 64||

kArakAMshAd.h vyaye ketau shubhakheTayutexite |

tadA tu jAyate muktiH sAyujyapadamApnuyAt.h || 65||

meshhe dhanushhi vA ketau kArakAMshAt.h vyaye sthite |

shubhakheTena sandR^ishhTe sAyujapadamApnuyAt.h || 66||

vyaye cha kevale ketau pApayuktexitepi vA |

na tadA jAyate muktiH shubhalokaM na pashyati || 67||

raviNA saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite |

shivabhaktirbhavesyatta nirvishaMkaM dvijottama || 68||

chandreNa saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite |

gauryAM bhaktirbhavettasya shAktiko jAyate naraH || 69||

shukreNa saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite |

laxmyAM saJNjAyate bhaktirjAtako sau samR^iddhimAn.h || 70||

kujena saMyute ketau skandabhaktau bhavennaraH |

vaishhNavo budhasauribhyAM guruNA shivabhaktimAn.h || 71||

rAhuNA tAmasIM durgAM sevate xudradevatAm.h |

bhaktiH skande.atha herabhbhe shikhinA kevalena vA || 72||

kArakAMshAd.h vyaye sauriH pAparAshau yadA bhavet.h |

tadA.api xudradevasya bhaktistasya na saMshayaH || 73||

Here is a rough translation:

"If a benefic planet is in own sign or exaltation sign in the 12th house from karakamsa (AK in navamsa), the native will reach an auspicious loka. If Ketu is there, with benefic planet conjunction or aspect, then moksha/sayujya is obtained. If such a Ketu is in Aries or Sagittarius, aspected by a benefic planet, then sayujya (joining one of the deities - different from moksha, but almost as good) is obtained. If Ketu in 12th is alone or conjoined/aspected by malefics, the native neither gets moksha nor reaches higher lokas. If Ketu is with Sun in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Shiva is suggested without doubt. If Ketu is with Moon in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Gouri is suggested and a Shaakta is born. If Ketu is with Venus in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Lakshmi is caused and the native is blessed. If Ketu is with Mars, native will be a devotee of Skanda. Mercury and Saturn make one a Vaishnava, while Jupiter makes one a devotee of Shiva. In the case of Rahu, native worships tamasi form Durga or kshudra devatas. If Ketu is alone, then devotion is to Skanda or Ganesha. If Saturn in the 12th from karakamsa is in a malefic sign, then native devotes to a kshudra devata [instead of Vishnu] without doubt. "

The way we find ishta devata in the SJC tradition is NOT from Parasara. It has similarities, but you will see what Parasara said above and it is not the same as what SJC tradition teaches. Moreover, there is no reference to Vishnu's avataras here.

I have no disrespect for either tradition, but, as Parasara's name was brought up, I wanted to throw light on what I believe Parasara advocated.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

sohamsa , "lakshmikary" <lakshmikary wrote:>> Jaya Jagannatha,> Dear Sundeep,> Rather you making judgements on each other etc,or decided yu are > right or wrong, lets accept it is a personal thing/path ,isnt > everyone on a unique path of self realization of life,? Just because > I beleive this or that what does that mean to some catholic nun?> > THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates > offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for > different cultures and religions we can.> The 12th rashi from AK in navamsa can have so many influences to it.> Also D-20 itself shows so much potential for variation,about ones > attitude,devotion etc.> So one is the same ! Thank-God.So there is no "ONE path" or God that > we ARE ALL rigidly following.(or not following)> Depends on our free will and individuality and our unique connection > to the universe.> Why dont you post your chart and show us your Isthadevata and > palanadeveta and give some astro analysis, as this is an astro forum.> I heard that some SJC people were compiling a number of charts of > catholics and others and showing ishtadeveta ,etc//as a good study.> For example at one time I did many buddists and inpersonalists chart > and many had Sun in the 12th house in rasi and as their ISthadeveta.> A big area of study as people from a wide variety of cultural back > ground consults an astrologer.> With regards,> Lakshmi

June 2, 2006

Hare Krishna

Dear Narasimha.

Unfortunetly,I just listen/read and learn, I dont remember often

where I learned something specifically, but if you refer to page 22

of Vedic remedies Sanjay gives some reference to Parsara and a table

of the avataras corresponding to the planet, that is probably where

I got it from.

For discussion, let me ramble on ,maybe we are missing something, Or

mixing things up .

Maybe before we prescribe " isthadeveta " we should first see what we

want to accomplish.

These are my thoughts , perhaps I'm wrong..

AK is the soul charakaraka indicator for this life. It shows the

current eveolution, and state of the AK.In reality The soul is

eternal and can't be destroyed. Just the temperary state

that it is manifesting is what we can see and relate to.

1)What would serve the highter purpose and development of the

soul /AK? I would think it would be to examine the 9th from the

karakamsa lagna. That is the planet(person/deity) I think should be

worshiped for assisting the AK in its path.

2) But then we have the situation at the time of physical death

when the soul has to give up his temporary identity with its body?

The real " soul " can not be seen, but we can look to the 12th from

the AK in karakamsa to see where and what are the seperating facors

(what needs to be lost or given up) for the AK .What loka the person

is driven to,etc depending on his karmas and desires etc.

This leads us to:

3)According to Bhagavad gita, a person thinks about what he is most

attached to at the time of death. And at the time of death our

mental state and attachments will bind us into another birth.

OK, 12 house from AK shows the situation at death or the seperation

at death of the AK from the physical body.And what is the Moons

relationship to the 12th from AK. What about the 12th from Moon?

What is the Moon focused on at that time.(Probably what is was

focused on during the life)

So why is the " isthadeveta " figured from the 12th house from AK?

I think the isthadevata , if we are talking about help in the form

of a devata ,for the AK should be the 9th from the AK in karakamsa.

Of course im not an authority, these are just thoughts that move

around in my head.

Anyway about Vishnu avataras...

I guess it depends on who is the sustainer of the universe.Every

Diety/God demigod is working under the authority of an even higher

authority. So who is capable of Liberating the souls not from their

current bodies but from the entire material universe?

OK, so what do the classics say about the lokas BEYOND the material

universe? What do they say about the spiritual sky.?

4)From the Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna and avataras are the only one

who can really " liberate " one from the cycle of birth and death

permanently,out of this world and the next material universe as well?

Or, can I ask who can give real " liberation " to the souls and then

who is the MASTER of that person/God?

What is the word liberate? It means to be free.In our cases free to

enjoy the material creation,enjoy and follow our senses,etc

This we can see through so many indications in the chart.Gunas,etc.

So when the soul wants to enjoy seperate from the Lord he gets so

many chances in the forms of entanglement in the laws of karma.But

the opposite of liberation is giving up ones freedom(percieved as

free will) and returning to the Lord and his abode.

Other points -All forms of the lord are together with their female

consorts/expansions. Even the great Lord Shiva is meditating on the

lotus feet of Krishna and is usually accompanied by his female

consort in his various lilas.

ie Lakshmi-Narayan, Radha-Krishna,etc

But can Lakshmi or Radha or Gauri,Parvati, or Saraswati, or even

Ganesh grant moksha? Maybe the can help by attracting the soul, and

leading them closer to Vishnu ...Krishna??

I guess its how direct a route you want to take, but all roads lead

to rome so its all the same in the end.

I'm tired , I hope you get my drift.

I appreciate your input, everyone has a unique take on things, that

is why we need gurus.

With regards,

Lakshmi

sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr

wrote:

>

> Dear Lakshmi,

>

> I appreciate what you wrote in your mail. But, I want to strike a

different note on the following thing you wrote:

>

> > THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates

> > offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for

> > different cultures and religions we can.

>

> [background for non-SJC people: In the SJC tradition, the devata

corresponding to a planet in the 12th house from AK in navamsa is

called ishta devata and supposed to take one towards moksha.]

>

> Can you please quote the verse in which Parasara advocates

offering a Vishnu form for ishtadevata? I missed that verse when I

studied BPHS.

>

> Parasara did associate planets with Vishnu's avataras at the

beginning of BPHS. But, as far as I know, Parsara he did not talk

about Vishnu's avataras when he talked about worshipping a devata

based on the planets in the 12th house from karakamsa.

>

> The following verses are from the 33rd chapter in BPHS (on

Karakamsa):

>

> kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthAne svabhochchasthe shubhagrahe |

> sad.hgatirjAyate tasya shubhalokamavApnuyAt.h || 64||

> kArakAMshAd.h vyaye ketau shubhakheTayutexite |

> tadA tu jAyate muktiH sAyujyapadamApnuyAt.h || 65||

> meshhe dhanushhi vA ketau kArakAMshAt.h vyaye sthite |

> shubhakheTena sandR^ishhTe sAyujapadamApnuyAt.h || 66||

> vyaye cha kevale ketau pApayuktexitepi vA |

> na tadA jAyate muktiH shubhalokaM na pashyati || 67||

> raviNA saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite |

> shivabhaktirbhavesyatta nirvishaMkaM dvijottama || 68||

> chandreNa saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite |

> gauryAM bhaktirbhavettasya shAktiko jAyate naraH || 69||

> shukreNa saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite |

> laxmyAM saJNjAyate bhaktirjAtako sau samR^iddhimAn.h || 70||

> kujena saMyute ketau skandabhaktau bhavennaraH |

> vaishhNavo budhasauribhyAM guruNA shivabhaktimAn.h || 71||

> rAhuNA tAmasIM durgAM sevate xudradevatAm.h |

> bhaktiH skande.atha herabhbhe shikhinA kevalena vA || 72||

> kArakAMshAd.h vyaye sauriH pAparAshau yadA bhavet.h |

> tadA.api xudradevasya bhaktistasya na saMshayaH || 73||

>

> Here is a rough translation:

>

> " If a benefic planet is in own sign or exaltation sign in the 12th

house from karakamsa (AK in navamsa), the native will reach an

auspicious loka. If Ketu is there, with benefic planet conjunction

or aspect, then moksha/sayujya is obtained. If such a Ketu is in

Aries or Sagittarius, aspected by a benefic planet, then sayujya

(joining one of the deities - different from moksha, but almost as

good) is obtained. If Ketu in 12th is alone or conjoined/aspected by

malefics, the native neither gets moksha nor reaches higher lokas.

If Ketu is with Sun in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Shiva is

suggested without doubt. If Ketu is with Moon in the 12th from

karakamsa, devotion to Gouri is suggested and a Shaakta is born. If

Ketu is with Venus in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Lakshmi

is caused and the native is blessed. If Ketu is with Mars, native

will be a devotee of Skanda. Mercury and Saturn make one a

Vaishnava, while Jupiter makes one a devotee of Shiva. In the case

of Rahu, native worships tamasi form Durga or kshudra devatas. If

Ketu is alone, then devotion is to Skanda or Ganesha. If Saturn in

the 12th from karakamsa is in a malefic sign, then native devotes to

a kshudra devata [instead of Vishnu] without doubt. "

>

> The way we find ishta devata in the SJC tradition is NOT from

Parasara. It has similarities, but you will see what Parasara said

above and it is not the same as what SJC tradition teaches.

Moreover, there is no reference to Vishnu's avataras here.

>

> I have no disrespect for either tradition, but, as Parasara's name

was brought up, I wanted to throw light on what I believe Parasara

advocated.

>

> May the light of Brahman shine within,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> -------------------------------

>

> sohamsa , " lakshmikary " <lakshmikary@> wrote:

> >

> > Jaya Jagannatha,

> > Dear Sundeep,

> > Rather you making judgements on each other etc,or decided yu are

> > right or wrong, lets accept it is a personal thing/path ,isnt

> > everyone on a unique path of self realization of life,? Just

because

> > I beleive this or that what does that mean to some catholic nun?

> >

> > THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates

> > offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for

> > different cultures and religions we can.

> > The 12th rashi from AK in navamsa can have so many influences to

it.

> > Also D-20 itself shows so much potential for variation,about

ones

> > attitude,devotion etc.

> > So one is the same ! Thank-God.So there is no " ONE path " or God

that

> > we ARE ALL rigidly following.(or not following)

> > Depends on our free will and individuality and our unique

connection

> > to the universe.

> > Why dont you post your chart and show us your Isthadevata and

> > palanadeveta and give some astro analysis, as this is an astro

forum.

> > I heard that some SJC people were compiling a number of charts

of

> > catholics and others and showing ishtadeveta ,etc//as a good

study.

> > For example at one time I did many buddists and inpersonalists

chart

> > and many had Sun in the 12th house in rasi and as their

ISthadeveta.

> > A big area of study as people from a wide variety of cultural

back

> > ground consults an astrologer.

> > With regards,

> > Lakshmi

>

June 4, 2006

Dear Sanjay,

> Why did Parasara talk of the Vishnu avataras in one> full chapter of BPHS.> Please bear in mind that Parasara is a Maharishi and> not like most other> Jyotisa authors because he is the author of the> VISHNU Purana and has heard> the word as indicated in his authorship (lack of> better word) of the Rig> Veda.

Parasara is a Maharshi and that is why we should be careful when using his name to support a view.

Given that Parasara explcitly gave Shiva, Gouri etc as the deities based on planets in the 12th from AK's amsa, it is factually incorrect to say that "Parasara advocates" that ishta devata (deity worshipped based on the 12th from AK's amsa) should be a Vishnu avatara. That is all I am saying.

Having a view different from Parasara's, based on tradition, is fine, but incorrectly attributing a view to Parasara is what made me speak out on this.

I gave my freewheeling thoughts on ishta devata in another mail and you responded:

> Now it is your assumption that Sri Ramakrishna's> Ista devata is Kali.

> I think the Ista devata is Shiva/Rama and Sri

Well, it is indeed my assumption. However, it is not an unreasonable one.

When Ramakrishna finally obtained nirvikalpa samadhi, merging into the formless reality, the deity he sought permission to do so was Kaali. Also, the "form" that acted as the "final barrier" to merging with the "formless reality" was Kaali - the form that he had to cut to reach nirviklapa samadhi was that of Mother Kaali.

And, yet, you claim that Kaali is not his ishta devata!!!! Hmmm...

Many of us may get attached to so many deities at various stages in our lives. Can we call all of them or the first one of them as ishta devata? I don't think so. Ishta devata is that special deity, complete surrender to whom can magically transform one's life. That deity controls the native fully and acts as the link of the native to divinity. If at all one reaches savikalpa samadhi, ishta devata is the deity that one experiences. If at all one reaches nirvikalpa samadhi, ishta devata is the form that may act as the final barrier to merging with the formless reality.

An avatara like Ramakrishna Paramahansa did so many different sadhanas and excelled in all of them. But, can all those be called ishta devatas?

Kaali was the devata he surrendered to and Kaali was the devata who guided his life. Kaali was the devata he saw everywhere. Kaali was the form he had to finally overcome, in order to reach nirvikalpa samadhi. I cannot think of any other deity as Ramakrishna Paramahansa's ishta devata. The fact that he did and excelled in so many sadhanas does not take away anything from the key role of Kaali in his life, which can be played only by ishta devata.

> would also do the Puja> sometimes at the Kali temple. This is the Bhakti> yoga of Lagna lord Saturn> (Kali) in 9th house....the rest is history. That is

Yes, the rest is history! That is precisely why I think Kaali is his ishta devata!!! As you said below, he had "perfect Bhakti" and "complete submission" to Kaali. And you say that "the rest is history". If there was "perfect Bhakti" and "complete submission" to a deity and "the rest is history", isn't there a higher definition of ishta devata?

Doesn't it tell you that Kaali is his ishta devata?

Any thumb rule that shows another deity as ishta devata in this case and requires a laborious justification needs fine tuning IMHO.

Please realize that I am not dismissing the tradition and the use of 12th house from AK in navamsa. I am only saying that thumbrules like "take the occupant and lord if empty" are not perfect and need finetuning.

In this case, 12th has a planet, but 12th lord Jupiter is stronger. He is in Saturn's house with Saturn. Saturn shows Kaali. Jupiter shows Taara. So it was a variation of Kaali who was a little like Taara (Taarana Kaali), surrender to whom created a historical spiritual personage who not only obtained the most perfect self-realization but paved the way for self-realization in many many people for many many more generations to come!!

> perfect Bhakti when the> lagna lord goes to the ninth house and is exalted> (highest ideals) and> retrograde (humility/complete submission) or in some> cases, it can be> combust in perfect oneness with the Sun which is> also superb for spiritual> awakening.

> Ramakrishna achieved one-ness> with Ista devata at a very young age. Look at his> spiritual path and> spiritual master Totapuri (Advaita Vedanta) which is> the path of Shiva.

Totapuri considered worship any form (including Shiva) as silly. He only believed in the formless reality.

Lord Shiva Himself mastered so many different sadhanas of so many different forms, apart from union with the formless reality (Brahman). Thus, whether Totapuri followed "the path of Shiva" is debatable.

Finally, one comment. Different deities are lauded in various scriptures as the givers of moksha. If one holds the view that there are subtle and supreme forms of various deities that are capable of granting moksha, it is justified. Maharshi Vasishtha even says that one can obtain moksha without worshipping any form (just as Totapuri believed). Of course, Vasishtha himself worshipped so many forms.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

June 4, 2006

| om gurave namah |Dear Narasimha

Dear Sanjay,

> Why did Parasara talk of the Vishnu avataras in one> full chapter of BPHS.> Please bear in mind that Parasara is a Maharishi and> not like most other> Jyotisa authors because he is the author of the> VISHNU Purana and has heard> the word as indicated in his authorship (lack of> better word) of the Rig> Veda.

Parasara is a Maharshi and that is why we should be careful when using his name to support a view.

Given that Parasara explcitly gave Shiva, Gouri etc as the deities based on planets in the 12th from AK's amsa, it is factually incorrect to say that "Parasara advocates" that ishta devata (deity worshipped based on the 12th from AK's amsa) should be a Vishnu avatara. That is all I am saying.[s.Rath:] But that is what I said when I asked everyone to start taking names based on Parasara/Jaimini's teaching of planet in the 12th house from Karakamsa. Did I not give this very list? That this is not also referring to a Vishnu avatara is perhaps a limitation of not connecting the third chapter of Parasara with the other chapters. Why this limitation?

In another chapter Parasara talks of Agni and Jala as the deities of the Sun and Moon. Does it seem contradictory to this where he talks of different deities as Rama and Krishna for Sun and Moon and then again in another chapter he talks of Shiva and Gouri as the deities of Sun and Moon.

In any case, strictly speaking, Parasara has never talked of Kali for any of the planets. Then how can we explain the case of Ramakrishna? Should we assume then that since he did not worship any of the deities mentioned by Parasara then he did not get moksha? This would be a pathetic deduction as if anyone deserves moksha in the recent history then he alone does so.

Should we take Kali to be the deity of the Moon or the deity of Saturn? Prasna Marga at least is very clear about Saturn but puts a condition of the Moon being in a Saturn's sign.

Having a view different from Parasara's, based on tradition, is fine, but incorrectly attributing a view to Parasara is what made me speak out on this.

I gave my freewheeling thoughts on ishta devata in another mail and you responded:

> Now it is your assumption that Sri Ramakrishna's> Ista devata is Kali.

> I think the Ista devata is Shiva/Rama and Sri

Well, it is indeed my assumption. However, it is not an unreasonable one.

When Ramakrishna finally obtained nirvikalpa samadhi, merging into the formless reality, the deity he sought permission to do so was Kaali. Also, the "form" that acted as the "final barrier" to merging with the "formless reality" was Kaali - the form that he had to cut to reach nirviklapa samadhi was that of Mother Kaali.[s.Rath:] I think it was Ma Bhava Taarini, whom He called Kali and then the whole of Bengal calls Her Kaali. Should I also do so? I think differently and perhaps that is one flaw in me.

Narasimha, if I start calling you Ramachandra, do you become Ramachandra or are you still Narasimha? And just because I start calling you Ramachandra out of my dearest feelings for you and know how much I like you won't you encourage me to do so and endure all my tantrums? Perhaps that is what Ma Bhava Taarini did for Thakur.

And, yet, you claim that Kaali is not his ishta devata!!!! Hmmm...[s.Rath:] That was something worth thinking about. I try to go beyond the border sometimes.

Many of us may get attached to so many deities at various stages in our lives. Can we call all of them or the first one of them as ishta devata? I don't think so. Ishta devata is that special deity, complete surrender to whom can magically transform one's life. That deity controls the native fully and acts as the link of the native to divinity. If at all one reaches savikalpa samadhi, ishta devata is the deity that one experiences. If at all one reaches nirvikalpa samadhi, ishta devata is the form that may act as the final barrier to merging with the formless reality.

An avatara like Ramakrishna Paramahansa did so many different sadhanas and excelled in all of them. But, can all those be called ishta devatas?

Kaali was the devata he surrendered to and Kaali was the devata who guided his life. Kaali was the devata he saw everywhere. Kaali was the form he had to finally overcome, in order to reach nirvikalpa samadhi. I cannot think of any other deity as Ramakrishna Paramahansa's ishta devata. The fact that he did and excelled in so many sadhanas does not take away anything from the key role of Kaali in his life, which can be played only by ishta devata.[s.Rath:] OK let us technically assume that Kali gave him Moksha, so then what do we do when we don't find Kali mentioned in BPHS - what do we do when Parasara has so wrongly assumed that we would have more brains than we do in this Kali Yuga?

So I went and looked up Mantramahodadhih...and then I am again floored. Completely stumped this time.

He says " Kalika is like a thousand SUN's ablaze...and she is best worshipped on SUNDAYS!!!"

Thats it - enough for today.

What do you think Narasimha?

Best Wishes

Sanjay

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

June 5, 2006

Dear Sanjay,

> [s.Rath:] But that is what I said when I asked everyone to start taking> names based on Parasara/Jaimini's teaching of planet in the 12th house from> Karakamsa. Did I not give this very list? That this is not also referring to> a Vishnu avatara is perhaps a limitation of not connecting the third chapter> of Parasara with the other chapters. Why this limitation?

I have no issue with connecting the third chapter and using Vishnu's avataras. My only problem is with insisting that only Vishnu's avataras should be prescribed and, moreover, attributing that view to Parasara.

> In another chapter Parasara talks of Agni and Jala as the deities of the Sun> and Moon. Does it seem contradictory to this where he talks of different> deities as Rama and Krishna for Sun and Moon and then again in another> chapter he talks of Shiva and Gouri as the deities of Sun and Moon.

We have millions of deities, but only nine planets!! Obviously, each planet must show many many deities.

> In any case, strictly speaking, Parasara has never talked of Kali for any of> the planets. Then how can we explain the case of Ramakrishna? Should we> assume then that since he did not worship any of the deities mentioned by> Parasara then he did not get moksha?

Parasara's list is obviously not exhaustive and merely a guidance. I object to eliminating deities explicitly listed by Parasara (e.g. insisting on only Vishnu's avataras and hence eliminating Shiva, Gouri etc), but obviously not to extending the list by treating it as a guideline.

Secondly, Parasara did not specifically mention Kaali, but he did say that Saturn in a malefic sign shows devotion to taamasik deities. Here Saturn is in Aquarius, a malefic sign.

> This would be a pathetic deduction as> if anyone deserves moksha in the recent history then he alone does so.

I completely agree with the sentiment. And I am sure Ramakrishna got moksha. Humans may have the fortune of having Swami Vivekananda among them again, but Ramakrishna will not walk this earth again.

> Should we take Kali to be the deity of the Moon or the deity of Saturn?> Prasna Marga at least is very clear about Saturn but puts a condition of the> Moon being in a Saturn's sign.

Moon shows Divine Mother in general. Saturn's influence on him can show a Saturnine form of Divine Mother, i.e. Kaali.

> When Ramakrishna finally obtained nirvikalpa samadhi, merging into the> formless reality, the deity he sought permission to do so was Kaali. Also,> the "form" that acted as the "final barrier" to merging with the "formless> reality" was Kaali - the form that he had to cut to reach nirviklapa samadhi> was that of Mother Kaali.> [s.Rath:] I think it was Ma Bhava Taarini, whom He called Kali and then the> whole of Bengal calls Her Kaali. Should I also do so? I think differently> and perhaps that is one flaw in me.> Narasimha, if I start calling you Ramachandra, do you become Ramachandra or> are you still Narasimha? And just because I start calling you Ramachandra> out of my dearest feelings for you and know how much I like you won't you> encourage me to do so and endure all my tantrums? Perhaps that is what Ma> Bhava Taarini did for Thakur.

Suppose there is a stone idol that everybody calls "Ganesha". Suppose a great saint sees "Hanuman" in that stone and worships the stone as Hanuman. Suppose he worships Hanuman with the highest devotion. Won't Hanuman come and bless him? If that happens, is it Ganesha who blesses him or Hanuman? Is it the stone he worshipped that blesses him or the "Hanuman" that he sees in the stone that blesses him? Is the power in the stone or in the thoughts of devotion in the worshipper when he sees the stone?

You can trust Ramakrishna to know the devata he saw!! If he thought he saw Kaali, it must be Kaali. Period. What the original idol he worshipped was called before is, IMHO, grossly irrelevant.

Like I said earlier, "Taarana Kaali" who was with Ramakrishna is a variation of Kaali with some energy of Taara. It is Saturn in Aq with Jupiter that shows Her.

> And, yet, you claim that Kaali is not his ishta devata!!!! Hmmm...> [s.Rath:] That was something worth thinking about. I try to go beyond the> border sometimes.

And I try to get you back within the border. :-)

> So I went and looked up Mantramahodadhih...and then I am again floored.> Completely stumped this time.> He says " Kalika is like a thousand SUN's ablaze...and she is best> worshipped on SUNDAYS!!!"> Thats it - enough for today.> What do you think Narasimha?

I hope you are not considering Sun to show Kaali now!

The dasa maha vidya verse you quoted associates Kaali with Saturn. If you see the desctiption of Kaali in Sapta shati, Sapta shati rahasyam etc, then also the association with Saturn makes great sense.

You cannot expect each deity to be exactly like a planet and have every quality matching that of a specific planet. There may be similarity to several planets in several characteristics, but one planet may dominantly show the deity. For example, Kaali may have the radiance of Sun, speed of Mars, wisdom of Jupiter etc, but, if we have to pick one planet, it is Saturn.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

June 5, 2006

||Jai Ramakrishna||

Revered Sanjay Ji & Narasimha ji,

It might seem that i have the audacity to interfere into the

discussion going on between two learned astrologers...but still for

information i am writing what i know about Shree Ramakrishna

1)Shree Ramakrishna's father had been to Gaya for Pinda Daan kriya,

where he dream of Gadadhar(the presiding deity of Gaya Kshetra)

telling him, that He would like to be his son... & few days before,

his father,viz., Kshudiram Chattopadhyay received a Shalagram Sila,

whose name was Raghuvira..

2)Shree Ramakrishna or known as " Gadadhar Chattopadhyay " before

taking Sanyasa, used to worship that very Salagram Sila after His

Upnayanam, with full attention & devotion. From that time onwards,

he used to have Samadhi..

3)Before coming to Dakshineswar, he used to worship Raghuvira

Shalagram Sila with full devotion & even after coming to

Dakshineswar, he never accepted the " Prasad " of Kali(original name

is Jagadishwari Mahakali, colloquially known as " Bhavatarini " ), the

presiding deity of Dakshineswar.

4)When His elder brother was given the job to look after the daily

Puja proceedings of Kali, Shree Ramakrishna used to worship Radha-

Krishna, adjacent to the Kali Temple in the compound...

5)He was also initiated with the Tantrik Mantra, by Shree Keneram

Bhattacharya,so that in future he can worship Kali( for your

information, you cannot worship Kali unless u r initiated with a

Shakti Beeja even if u r a brahmin...such is Tantra's verdict)

6)After His brother passed away, Shree Ramakrishna took the charge

of worshipping Kali daily...from that time onwards he was completely

devoted Kali..day n nite he used to think of her...in the Ghats of

Ganges...he used to sleep & he used to cry, " Maa....another passed

away...still i dint have ur darshan " & finally oneday he had Kali's

darshan...

7)From that time onwards..He saw Kali in every human being n in all

animals...oneday while doing Kali puja, a cat entered into the

temple...He was offering the bhoga then, he saw the cat & said, " O

Mother...you have come...please have this food!! " again one day he

insisted kali to have the food...feeling that she is not eating..he

said, " Mother..ok i will have ....n u'll have the food with

me " ...etc...

8)After a certain time...shree ramakrishna cudn't Kali's puja...as

he was doing Sadhana according to all religion..starting with Tantra

Sadhana, Vaishnava sadhana, & vedanta Sadhana, when he took Sanyasa

& took the name " Ramakrishna Puri " . All his sadhana ended with the

worship of Holy Mother or Sarada Devi .

Thanq,

Wish u all success,

With Humbleness,

.

June 5, 2006

Om

Brihaspataye Namah

Dear Sanjay ji,

Jaya Jagannatha

SRATH >So I went and looked up Mantramahodadhih...and

then I am again floored. Completely stumped this time.

He says " Kalika is like a thousand SUN's

ablaze...and she is best worshipped on SUNDAYS!!! "

Thats it - enough for today.

What do you think Narasimha?

Best Wishes

Sanjay

According

to my understanding, the 14 mothers who look after the world are divided into

the 2 halves – in the Sun’s cycle of the 2 ayanas and in the 2

fortnights in the Moon’s cycle.

So

Mantramahodadih’s statement is too generalized by opting only on a Sunday

for Ma’s worship e.g., Radha’s forms are several and her names are

many, Kali, Durga, Lakshmi, Lalita etc.

My 2

cents, so please educate me.

Love,

Swee

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

June 5, 2006

| om gurave namah |Dear Narasimha

Dear Sanjay,

> [s.Rath:] But that is what I said when I asked everyone to start taking> names based on Parasara/Jaimini's teaching of planet in the 12th house from> Karakamsa. Did I not give this very list? That this is not also referring to> a Vishnu avatara is perhaps a limitation of not connecting the third chapter> of Parasara with the other chapters. Why this limitation?

I have no issue with connecting the third chapter and using Vishnu's avataras. My only problem is with insisting that only Vishnu's avataras should be prescribed and, moreover, attributing that view to Parasara.[s.Rath:] That is because you are not connecting the natural 12th house Pisces which is ruled by Jupiter and natural 9th house also ruled by Jupiter which indicate the akasa tatva of guru. That is why dharma devata and ista devata are to be seen in Vishnu. I think you are getting stuck with forms,names and rasa which is for the beginners and are not appreciating the sarva-vyapakesa meaning of Vishnu. In another mail today I have elaborated more on this.

> In another chapter Parasara talks of Agni and Jala as the deities of the Sun> and Moon. Does it seem contradictory to this where he talks of different> deities as Rama and Krishna for Sun and Moon and then again in another> chapter he talks of Shiva and Gouri as the deities of Sun and Moon.

We have millions of deities, but only nine planets!! Obviously, each planet must show many many deities.[s.Rath:] So we agree on this as well and shall not limit ourselves to Parasara but will also acknowledge Parasara.

> In any case, strictly speaking, Parasara has never talked of Kali for any of> the planets. Then how can we explain the case of Ramakrishna? Should we> assume then that since he did not worship any of the deities mentioned by> Parasara then he did not get moksha?

Parasara's list is obviously not exhaustive and merely a guidance. I object to eliminating deities explicitly listed by Parasara (e.g. insisting on only Vishnu's avataras and hence eliminating Shiva, Gouri etc), but obviously not to extending the list by treating it as a guideline.

Secondly, Parasara did not specifically mention Kaali, but he did say that Saturn in a malefic sign shows devotion to taamasik deities. Here Saturn is in Aquarius, a malefic sign.[s.Rath:] Narasimha, are you saying that Kali worship is Tamasik or that Kali is a tamasika devata? Please think again about this statement. Parasara never meant what you are saying. In fact if I am going to be a strictler for words then I will catch Tamasik and say Parasara meant 'Tamasa Devi' (thats another Devi), but I am not doing that.

> This would be a pathetic deduction as> if anyone deserves moksha in the recent history then he alone does so.

I completely agree with the sentiment. And I am sure Ramakrishna got moksha. Humans may have the fortune of having Swami Vivekananda among them again, but Ramakrishna will not walk this earth again.[s.Rath:] Good we are clear about this. Yes we both like him very much.

> Should we take Kali to be the deity of the Moon or the deity of Saturn?> Prasna Marga at least is very clear about Saturn but puts a condition of the> Moon being in a Saturn's sign.

Moon shows Divine Mother in general. Saturn's influence on him can show a Saturnine form of Divine Mother, i.e. Kaali.[s.Rath:] So, Is it the Moon or Saturn? Which one?

> When Ramakrishna finally obtained nirvikalpa samadhi, merging into the> formless reality, the deity he sought permission to do so was Kaali. Also,> the "form" that acted as the "final barrier" to merging with the "formless> reality" was Kaali - the form that he had to cut to reach nirviklapa samadhi> was that of Mother Kaali.> [s.Rath:] I think it was Ma Bhava Taarini, whom He called Kali and then the> whole of Bengal calls Her Kaali. Should I also do so? I think differently> and perhaps that is one flaw in me.> Narasimha, if I start calling you Ramachandra, do you become Ramachandra or> are you still Narasimha? And just because I start calling you Ramachandra> out of my dearest feelings for you and know how much I like you won't you> encourage me to do so and endure all my tantrums? Perhaps that is what Ma> Bhava Taarini did for Thakur.

Suppose there is a stone idol that everybody calls "Ganesha". Suppose a great saint sees "Hanuman" in that stone and worships the stone as Hanuman. Suppose he worships Hanuman with the highest devotion. Won't Hanuman come and bless him? If that happens, is it Ganesha who blesses him or Hanuman? Is it the stone he worshipped that blesses him or the "Hanuman" that he sees in the stone that blesses him? Is the power in the stone or in the thoughts of devotion in the worshipper when he sees the stone?

You can trust Ramakrishna to know the devata he saw!! If he thought he saw Kaali, it must be Kaali. Period. What the original idol he worshipped was called before is, IMHO, grossly irrelevant.

Like I said earlier, "Taarana Kaali" who was with Ramakrishna is a variation of Kaali with some energy of Taara. It is Saturn in Aq with Jupiter that shows Her.[s.Rath:] Got your point and you have given an excellent example. But you are still not clarifying one thing. OK I will put the question differently so that perhaps we can be more clear about what we are talking about. How many Veda are there - ONE or FOUR?

> And, yet, you claim that Kaali is not his ishta devata!!!! Hmmm...> [s.Rath:] That was something worth thinking about. I try to go beyond the> border sometimes.

And I try to get you back within the border. :-)[s.Rath:] ) Ok

> So I went and looked up Mantramahodadhih...and then I am again floored.> Completely stumped this time.> He says " Kalika is like a thousand SUN's ablaze...and she is best> worshipped on SUNDAYS!!!"> Thats it - enough for today.> What do you think Narasimha?

I hope you are not considering Sun to show Kaali now!

The dasa maha vidya verse you quoted associates Kaali with Saturn. If you see the desctiption of Kaali in Sapta shati, Sapta shati rahasyam etc, then also the association with Saturn makes great sense.

You cannot expect each deity to be exactly like a planet and have every quality matching that of a specific planet. There may be similarity to several planets in several characteristics, but one planet may dominantly show the deity. For example, Kaali may have the radiance of Sun, speed of Mars, wisdom of Jupiter etc, but, if we have to pick one planet, it is Saturn.[s.Rath:] There you go. What took you so long? And you need to add another statement that " when we are talking about the Devi, we are talking of the entire creation as well as our own creation. When this creation is from sin, then the root cause of our creation is sin which is indicated by Saturn and his son Gulika. That is why these planets play a crucial role in calculating the conception chart. Now if the root cause of our physical creation is Saturn, then that form of the original shakti who had to bear the burden of keeping us in whatever state of 'pre-conception' must be the one who can bear the burden of our sins. So she is Kaali, the dark one who has the strength and fortitude to bear those sins for our creation again and again so that we can be given ample opportunity to finish the karma and whn we cannot do this anymore and sincerely pray to her then she also has that power to take those sins away as she, by bearning the sins of the whole creation again and again is the repository of all the good karma as well. Thus what she is is Satvika and only one who is pure of mind shall see this'....so the answer is Saturn as the most external and the inner planets in their order shall show the lessor forms of her as she passes through the ten stages of pre-conception that leads to conception and birth.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

Best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ● Rath’s Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ● SJCERC ● JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ● Sagittarius Publications----

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

June 6, 2006

Dear Sanjay,

> I have no issue with connecting the third chapter and using Vishnu's> avataras. My only problem is with insisting that only Vishnu's avataras> should be prescribed and, moreover, attributing that view to Parasara.> [s.Rath:] That is because you are not connecting the natural 12th house> Pisces which is ruled by Jupiter and natural 9th house also ruled by Jupiter> which indicate the akasa tatva of guru. That is why dharma devata and ista> devata are to be seen in Vishnu. I think you are getting stuck with> forms,names and rasa which is for the beginners and are not appreciating the> sarva-vyapakesa meaning of Vishnu. In another mail today I have elaborated> more on this.

You can write as much as you want. But the bottomline is that Parasara explicitly mentioned Shiva and Gouri in the context of ishta devata.

If you do not "get stuck with forms, names" and recognize that Vishnu is "sarva-vyapakeswara" and hence covers all deities, why can't you accept Shiva as a form of Vishnu and accept him as ishta devata?

> Secondly, Parasara did not specifically mention Kaali, but he did say that> Saturn in a malefic sign shows devotion to taamasik deities. Here Saturn is> in Aquarius, a malefic sign.> [s.Rath:] Narasimha, are you saying that Kali worship is Tamasik or that> Kali is a tamasika devata? Please think again about this statement.

Of course, Kaali is referred to as "taamasi" in Sapta shati. She is of course the taamasik energy of the universe. And, BTW, that is not a bad thing as some may be tempted to think.

I did not say worshipping Kaali is taamasik.

A personal note here: I used to be prejudiced against taamasik devatas and used to think that their worship is bad. I later realized that understanding the nature of taamasik devatas is much tougher than understanding the nature saattwik devatas and that sattwik worship of taamasik devatas is possible. I also realized that moksha is not about being fully saattwik, but about understanding and overcoming all the three gunas!

> > Should we take Kali to be the deity of the Moon or the deity of Saturn?> > Prasna Marga at least is very clear about Saturn but puts a condition of> the> > Moon being in a Saturn's sign.> > Moon shows Divine Mother in general. Saturn's influence on him can show a> Saturnine form of Divine Mother, i.e. Kaali.> [s.Rath:] So, Is it the Moon or Saturn? Which one?

Can be either in my view. Saturn or Moon under Saturnine influence.

> [s.Rath:] Got your point and you have given an excellent example. But you> are still not clarifying one thing. OK I will put the question differently> so that perhaps we can be more clear about what we are talking about. How> many Veda are there - ONE or FOUR?

Veda is the knowledge. There is basically one Veda. For convenience of learning though, Veda was divided into 3 parts and later into 4 parts.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

June 6, 2006

Dear Dhira Krsna,

> Isn't a chart where Navamsa lagna lord is the same> as Istha devata lord a chart that shows a divine personality (cf. Lord> Chaitanya).

Well, ishta devata being the lagna lord of navamsa can show that, but don't jump to conclusions based just on that.

I have AK Moon in Gemini in navamsa with Venus. The 12th from him contains lagna and no planets. So lagna lord Venus is ishta devata and he is with AK.

However, I am a normal person.

But one thing is correct - Lakshmi, shown by Venus, is indeed my ishta devata. My life changed when I started reading Sri Maha Lakshmi's 108 names 108 times on every Friday. Especially, after I found a spiritual guru who has a Venusian nakshatra and 4 planets in a Venusian sign (in the 8th house just like me), my devotion and sense of surrender to Sri Maha Lakshmi has been growing like anything.

> I have Rahu in 12th from AK, in Aquarius Navamsa with AK Saturn in Pisces.> What form is my istha devata?

IMHO, Aq shows hills and Rahu can show Lord Venkateswara (among others). Pray to Lord Venkateswara.

Om NamoBhagavate Vyankatesaaya

or

Om NamoBhagavate Venkatesaaya

> Ys,> Dhira Krsna dasa,

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

June 6, 2006

| om gurave namah |Dear Narasimha

Why did you say that? According to the argument you were just giving in a previous mail it should be Durga for Rahu in 12th house. Why did you change to Vyankateswara? In fac if Ramakrishna Paramhamsa came to you to ask for Ista devata and that chart, what would you have told him?

So you see you are also saying what I am saying and this saying is based on your Ista devata guiding you *intuitively* and not all mathematics and program.Best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ● Rath’s Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ● SJCERC ● JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ● Sagittarius Publications----

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Narasimha P.V.R. RaoTuesday, June 06, 2006 8:40 AM ; vedic astrology ; sohamsa Cc: sjcBoston Subject: Re: What Parasara Advocates...

Dear Dhira Krsna,

> Isn't a chart where Navamsa lagna lord is the same> as Istha devata lord a chart that shows a divine personality (cf. Lord> Chaitanya).

Well, ishta devata being the lagna lord of navamsa can show that, but don't jump to conclusions based just on that.

I have AK Moon in Gemini in navamsa with Venus. The 12th from him contains lagna and no planets. So lagna lord Venus is ishta devata and he is with AK.

However, I am a normal person.

But one thing is correct - Lakshmi, shown by Venus, is indeed my ishta devata. My life changed when I started reading Sri Maha Lakshmi's 108 names 108 times on every Friday. Especially, after I found a spiritual guru who has a Venusian nakshatra and 4 planets in a Venusian sign (in the 8th house just like me), my devotion and sense of surrender to Sri Maha Lakshmi has been growing like anything.

> I have Rahu in 12th from AK, in Aquarius Navamsa with AK Saturn in Pisces.> What form is my istha devata?

IMHO, Aq shows hills and Rahu can show Lord Venkateswara (among others). Pray to Lord Venkateswara.

Om NamoBhagavate Vyankatesaaya

or

Om NamoBhagavate Venkatesaaya

> Ys,> Dhira Krsna dasa,

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

June 6, 2006

| om gurave namah |Dear Narasimha

> I have no issue with connecting the third chapter and using Vishnu's> avataras. My only problem is with insisting that only Vishnu's avataras> should be prescribed and, moreover, attributing that view to Parasara.> [s.Rath:] That is because you are not connecting the natural 12th house> Pisces which is ruled by Jupiter and natural 9th house also ruled by Jupiter> which indicate the akasa tatva of guru. That is why dharma devata and ista> devata are to be seen in Vishnu. I think you are getting stuck with> forms,names and rasa which is for the beginners and are not appreciating the> sarva-vyapakesa meaning of Vishnu. In another mail today I have elaborated> more on this.

You can write as much as you want. But the bottomline is that Parasara explicitly mentioned Shiva and Gouri in the context of ishta devata.[s.Rath:] Then where did Kali come from?

If you do not "get stuck with forms, names" and recognize that Vishnu is "sarva-vyapakeswara" and hence covers all deities, why can't you accept Shiva as a form of Vishnu and accept him as ishta devata?[s.Rath:] How do you arrive at Kali for Ramakrishna's Ista devata? Kindly show me the working steps.

> Secondly, Parasara did not specifically mention Kaali, but he did say that> Saturn in a malefic sign shows devotion to taamasik deities. Here Saturn is> in Aquarius, a malefic sign.> [s.Rath:] Narasimha, are you saying that Kali worship is Tamasik or that> Kali is a tamasika devata? Please think again about this statement.

Of course, Kaali is referred to as "taamasi" in Sapta shati. She is of course the taamasik energy of the universe. And, BTW, that is not a bad thing as some may be tempted to think.[s.Rath:] That is no logic. Shiva is called Jagannatha in one work and in the Vishnu Sahasranama we find Shiva as one of the names of Vishnu. Kali is VERY different from Taamasi if I we accept the argument that Kali is different from Bhava Taarini or Tara. You can choose either one argument - not both at convenience!

I did not say worshipping Kaali is taamasik.

A personal note here: I used to be prejudiced against taamasik devatas and used to think that their worship is bad. I later realized that understanding the nature of taamasik devatas is much tougher than understanding the nature saattwik devatas and that sattwik worship of taamasik devatas is possible. I also realized that moksha is not about being fully saattwik, but about understanding and overcoming all the three gunas![s.Rath:] Tamasik devata is different from Tamasa guna remover devata. There is a big difference there. You should visit the Ganjam district and see 'GhoDaa Maa' or 'Rakta Pisachi devata' or maybe take a trek with Freedom (maybe he is wiser now and may not go there) to the yogini tantrik spots. America is ridden with all kinds of sex tantras and they have all kinds of devata guiding them. That is taamasik devata. Karna Pisachini is a taamasik devata. Tamasik devata are the deities of the mantras which are meant purely for sense gratification and material needs of a very lowly kind. I call them "ODD JOB DEVATA"

Kali is very pure and a sister or Krishna. In Puri we are taught that she is Parameswari and that children can worship her for anything. The wise want ignorance (taamas) destroyed and hence she is the remover of taamas and that is what she is originally meant to do. Thakur saw her with Kashi Vishwanatha giving moksha (or taking them to higher planes) to the souls in the buring ghats of Kashi Vishwanath when Vishwanath whispered the Brahma Taaraka Mantra into their ears. This is the form of Kali called BHAVA TAARINI or Tara by some as she helps to tide over the seven worlds created by Brahma.

Kashi-kshetra tannivaso jahnavi charanodakkam

gurur-vishvarasakshat taarakam brahma nischitam...

> > Should we take Kali to be the deity of the Moon or the deity of Saturn?> > Prasna Marga at least is very clear about Saturn but puts a condition of> the> > Moon being in a Saturn's sign.> > Moon shows Divine Mother in general. Saturn's influence on him can show a> Saturnine form of Divine Mother, i.e. Kaali.> [s.Rath:] So, Is it the Moon or Saturn? Which one?

Can be either in my view. Saturn or Moon under Saturnine influence.[s.Rath:] How then are you going to prescribe Kali puja?

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

June 7, 2006

Dear Sanjay,

> Why did you say that? According to the argument you were just giving in a> previous mail it should be Durga for Rahu in 12th house. Why did you change> to Vyankateswara?

You have misunderstood me. I did not and do not say that Vishnu's avataras should be avoided. Nor did I say that we should strictly stick to the short list Parasara gave for guidance. But I had two issues:

(1) Given that Parasara explicitly mentioned Shiva and Gouri in the context of ishta devata, I take objection to anyone who claims that they cannot be ishta devatas and only Vishnu's forms can be.

Whether deities not explicitly listed by Parasara can be ishta devatas or not is debatable. But, whether deities explicitly listed by Parasara can be ishta devatas or not is, as far as I am concerned, not open to debate! The fact that Parasara explicitly listed them means they can be ishta devatas. Period.

(2) Given that so many deities are lauded in various scriptures as givers of moksha, I object to the claim that only Vishnu grants moksha.

* * *

> So you see you are also saying what I am saying and this saying is based on> your Ista devata guiding you *intuitively* and not all mathematics and> program.

Yes.

There are so many deities and only 9 planets. So, to me, each planet shows umpteen deities (rather than just one Vishnu avatara). I try to judge based on various sign/planet influences on the planet in question to narrow down to a short list of deities. Then I have to select one among the short list of deities, using intuition.

I honestly don't think that I am capable of giving perfect guidance with the imperfect knowledge I have. So I leave it to Mother Sri Mahalakshmi. If She wants me to give the correct guidance in someone's sadhana, She will inspire me accordingly.

> In fac if Ramakrishna Paramhamsa came to you to ask for> Ista devata and that chart, what would you have told him?

I would have loved to note the lord of 12th from karakamsa, Jupiter, being stronger than Sun in 12th and Saturn in moolatrikona dominating over Jupiter and would have loved to suggest "Taarana Kaali".

Similarly, if Aurobindo had come to me, I would have loved to suggest sadhana of Savitri. If Ramana Maharshi had come to me, I would have loved to send him to Arunachaleshwara.

I am simply seeking better rules that would have allowed me to do so!

* * *

Regarding my statement that Kaali is taamsik, you wrote:

> Kali is very pure and a sister or Krishna. In Puri we are taught that she is> Parameswari and that children can worship her for anything.

>

> America is ridden with all kinds of sex tantras and they have all kinds of> devata guiding them. That is taamasik devata. Karna Pisachini is a taamasik> devata.

This is very tough to understand or appreciate for most people and hence I prefer to not go there, but let me briefly make a couple of important points.

That Mahaakaali is taamasik is not my invention. Saptashati uses the adjective "taamasi" (taamasik) to describe Her. Saptashati rahasyam (from Maarkendeya puraanam) clearly describes how Mahaalakshmi came into existence first from nothingness, how Mahaakaali and Mahaasaraswati came from Her and how they brought to existence one male and one female deity each (i.e. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and their consorts).

In that account, it is clearly said that Mahaakaali is composed of the guna tamas and Mahalakshmi is composed of the guna sattwa. Thus, Mahaakaali being taamasik is based in scripture and not my creation.

You have to bear in mind here that all tamas is not equal and all rajas is not equal either. If Karna Pisachini is a taamasik devata and Mahaakaali is a taamasik devata, it does not make them equal.

All darkness is not equal. Darkness that prevents you from seeing good is bad and darkness that prevents you from seeing bad is good.

Also, all tamas is not "impure" as you imply. All darkness is not impure and all ignorance is not impure. Removing light from certain things and developing ignorance of certain things can be actually quite pure!

Yes, Kaali is very pure. But that does not imply that she is "saattwik". Mahaakaali IS taamasik as Saptashati rahasyam unambiguously states. If this fact does not make sense to some, perhaps they are missing something! As I said earlier, taamasik devatas (esp those taamasik devatas who are very pure) are tough to understand. In fact, understanding the three gunas fully is also not easy.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

June 7, 2006

||Jai Ramakrishna||

Pranaam Shree Sanjayji & Shree Narasimhaji,

[Narasimhaji]-I completely agree with the sentiment. And I am sure

Ramakrishna got moksha.

Humans may have the fortune of having Swami Vivekananda among them

again,

but Ramakrishna will not walk this earth again.

My Reply -Shree Ramakrishna told himself that He will come again after

100 years for He is an avatara...refer to

Gita " ....Dharamsamsthaapanaarthaaya Sambhavaami yuge yuge " ..Avataras

even Gods...take birth for re-establishing Dharma in this world...

Wish u all success,

With Humbleness,

June 7, 2006

| om gurave namah |Dear Narasimha,

Firstly I don't know from where the "SJC formula" came. If it is in any book or letter, then please ignore it as there can never be one formula for SJC (at least during my headship of SJC) for spirituality. If there is one statement that is going to be the breadth of SJC's spiritual vision during my period, it can be summed up as the statement of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa: "jat mat tat path" (Bengali: There are as many paths [to God] as there are opinions or minds) and anything smaller than this is just a manifestation of individual narrowmindedness due to lack of appreciation of divinity and their personal world view which can be glimpsed after a careful examination of their 9th houses.

There are some new area that have opened due to this discussion and clarifications. I am giving my opinion and views ans am sure you will also communicate yours. I am packing for Serbia and will reply to your mail after my return. Thereafter we can continue this discussion in California and later also. I am sure with all this the SJC USA conference in California is going to be something as we discuss this in extended hours after the conference with everyone.

I found you copying this mail to so many other groups. Why is it so? If they need to know they can come here and see the discussions. Also if lakshmi or someone who is so new to all this (comparatively) or even Robert says something, I take it easy and let it pass, but not you Narasimha. We have agreed on most points but a few remain.

comments below in blue -

Best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ¡ñ Rath¡¯s Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ¡ñ SJCERC ¡ñ JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ¡ñ Sagittarius Publications----

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Narasimha P.V.R. RaoWednesday, June 07, 2006 7:35 AMsohamsa ; ; vedic astrology ; sjcBoston Subject: Re: What Parasara Advocates...

Dear Sanjay,

> Why did you say that? According to the argument you were just giving in a> previous mail it should be Durga for Rahu in 12th house. Why did you change> to Vyankateswara?

You have misunderstood me. I did not and do not say that Vishnu's avataras should be avoided. Nor did I say that we should strictly stick to the short list Parasara gave for guidance. But I had two issues:

(1) Given that Parasara explicitly mentioned Shiva and Gouri in the context of ishta devata, I take objection to anyone who claims that they cannot be ishta devatas and only Vishnu's forms can be.[s.Rath:] Again form! There is no form in the 12th house. There cannot be a form in the 12th house. This is where everykind of form ends. This is where the body or bodies end. This is the state of the body at death.

The form is in the 9th house, in the temples and churches and mosques where men try to put God in a box and makes rules about how to reach Him and how they should conduct themselves socially and in groups and as individuals. If others are making the mistake of saying that they can only see the "forms of Vishnu" in the 12th house, in what way are you also not adding to the same mistake by saying that there are "other forms instead of Vishnu forms" in the 12th house. You are still thinking about what others are saying and not what I am saying.

Have I not given such a clear and lucid explanation about the meaning of 12th house and vishnu as 'sarva-vyapakesa'. Then tell me from the physical universe viewpoint.

Is vishnu there in the flower? The answer is yes

Is Vishnu there in the tree? The answer is yes

Is Vishnu there in the pillar? The answer is yes

Is Vishnu there in you? The answer is yes

Then what is the form of Vishnu that I must attach the mind to - the flower, the tree, the pillar or to you? The external skin that forms the boundary for the physical bodies of all beings defines their physical form as seen by the eye but that which cannot be seen by the naked eye is the akasa that caused the elemets to come together to create the form in the first place and this is vishnu, the essence of the AKASA tattva that cause the creation. This is the prasava-karana devata of the 12th house and since the 12th house is associated with the bed, the learned say that he is sleeping or resting as if on a couch.

Parasara says Shiva, Gouri and other names for the 12th house from karakamsa as it is this aspect that we have got attached to and it is this that we have to transcend. If a person has Sun in the 12th from Karakamsa he will be very attached to Shiva, as if Shiva is his lord or boss and then there is the saying "fear of the lord is the begining of wisdom". So this is the begining of the wisdom and this was the begining of Thakur's awakening in this world as he played the role of Shiva in the village plays and went into instant samadhi!

AKASA tatva has the magnetic power (jupiter has the largest magnetic field) and the power of attraction is this nature of the akasa tatva. So by attracting the soul towards this final resting point, God takes forms and symbols as the tools for teaching him. So, any form that we see associated with the 12th house is incidental and not the cause of the moksa. Moksa comes when we transcend that form. Similarly the symbols like nama and rasa, like rupa (form) have to be transcended with 'om' (Srimad Bhagavatam) to realize the essence that is everywhere.

If Thakur saw Kali everywhere then that means he had transcended the form, name and flavor associated with Kali as per the various dhyana of Kali. The dhyana are the forms and imagery associated with the 9th house as the dharma of the devata and one has to transcend them before beeing in the state of jivana-mukta. That is why the Chandrakala nadi talks of the 12th house from karakamsa as the jivana-muktaamsa.

Whether deities not explicitly listed by Parasara can be ishta devatas or not is debatable. [s.Rath:] Again debate. Why is this debatable? I thought we had agreed on this point.

But, whether deities explicitly listed by Parasara can be ishta devatas or not is, as far as I am concerned, not open to debate! The fact that Parasara explicitly listed them means they can be ishta devatas. Period.[s.Rath:] That is the same thing that I said in the very first mail regarding taking of names that has started this thread. What is meant by "period" in the end of your sentence? The meaning given in the websers dictionary is as below. Which of these did you mean? I think it is a bit out of context as we were not talking about time or dasa in any manner. If it is a slang then I will advise you to try to stop using it. Believe me it is not worth it as it spoils the language.

pe-ri-od (peer'ee uhd) n. 1. an extent of time that is meaningful in the life of a person, in history, etc.: a period of illness; a period of social unrest. 2. a specific division or portion of time: the postwar period. 3. a round of time, esp. as marked by the recurrence of some phenomenon: the rainy period. 4. any of the parts of equal length into which a particular thing, as a sports contest, is divided. 5. the time during which something is completed or runs its course: the gestation period. 6. a. .the point or character (<.>) used to mark the end of a declarative sentence or to indicate an abbreviation; full stop 7. a full pause, as is made at the end of a complete sentence; full stop. 8. a sentence, esp. a well-balanced, impressive sentence: the stately periods of Churchill. 9. PERIODIC SENTENCE. 10. a. an occurrence of menstruation. b. a time of the month during which menstruation occurs. 11. the basic unit of geologic time, during which a standard rock system is formed: comprising two or more epochs and included with other periods in an era. 12. Physics. the duration of one complete cycle of a wave or oscillation; the reciprocal of the frequency. 13. a division of a musical composition commonly consisting of two or more contrasted or complementary phrases ending with a cadence. 14. Astron. a. the time in which a body rotates once on its axis. b. the time in which a planet or satellite revolves once about its primary. 15. (in classical prosody) a group of two or more cola. adj. 16. noting or pertaining to a historical period: a period play. interj. 17. (used to indicate that a decision is final): I forbid you to go, period. [1375-1425; late ME periode (< MF) < ML periodus, L < Gk per¨ªodos circuit, period of time, period in rhetoric. See PERI -, - ODE 2]

(2) Given that so many deities are lauded in various scriptures as givers of moksha, I object to the claim that only Vishnu grants moksha.[s.Rath:] That would amount to saying that only Indians get moksha and the rest of the world has no hope! Of course its pathetic. But then to say that "one who cannot see his devata as Vishnu", will be granted moksha is also wrong. The devata has to be seen as the devata of all and in all thngs big and small.

* * *

> So you see you are also saying what I am saying and this saying is based on> your Ista devata guiding you *intuitively* and not all mathematics and> program.

Yes.

There are so many deities and only 9 planets. So, to me, each planet shows umpteen deities (rather than just one Vishnu avatara). I try to judge based on various sign/planet influences on the planet in question to narrow down to a short list of deities. Then I have to select one among the short list of deities, using intuition.[s.Rath:] but the sign/planet correlation you did for Dhira Krishna was very interesting. Aquarius Mountains, Rahu Varaha-avatara so it was Balaji. Now look at this logic:

Aquarius - Mountains, Rahu - Durga, so it has to be Vaishno Devi who is the Durga of the mountains or Durga at Haridwar or any other mountain shrine of Durga. Is there anything wrong with this? If not then your logic of choosing Vyankaeswara is wrong and it will not work again.

In another case of Hari Mahalingam you have also advised Vyankateswara for Rahu in Gemini with Venus in 12th house from karakamsa and he has confirmed that he feels the closeness to Balaji.

One sadhu of the Ramakrishna mission says that the greatness of Balaji is that whoever goes to him, He appears in the form of the Ista devata to that person!!! Thats true as I have always seen Jagannath whenever I have gone to Balaji. So we cannot have any logic and should all prescribe the deities randomly.

I honestly don't think that I am capable of giving perfect guidance with the imperfect knowledge I have. So I leave it to Mother Sri Mahalakshmi. If She wants me to give the correct guidance in someone's sadhana, She will inspire me accordingly.[s.Rath:] I really admire this thing in you. This is what I had seen so many years back and will always like you because of this. It is a mark of the true bhakta. For me too, after all the logic it has to be jagannatha-arpanamastu

> In fac if Ramakrishna Paramhamsa came to you to ask for> Ista devata and that chart, what would you have told him?

I would have loved to note the lord of 12th from karakamsa, Jupiter, being stronger than Sun in 12th and Saturn in moolatrikona dominating over Jupiter and would have loved to suggest "Taarana Kaali".

Similarly, if Aurobindo had come to me, I would have loved to suggest sadhana of Savitri. If Ramana Maharshi had come to me, I would have loved to send him to Arunachaleshwara.

I am simply seeking better rules that would have allowed me to do so![s.Rath:] Faith in the basics shall open the mind for the higher truths.

* * *

Regarding my statement that Kaali is taamsik, you wrote:

> Kali is very pure and a sister or Krishna. In Puri we are taught that she is> Parameswari and that children can worship her for anything.

>

> America is ridden with all kinds of sex tantras and they have all kinds of> devata guiding them. That is taamasik devata. Karna Pisachini is a taamasik> devata.

This is very tough to understand or appreciate for most people and hence I prefer to not go there, but let me briefly make a couple of important points.

That Mahaakaali is taamasik is not my invention. Saptashati uses the adjective "taamasi" (taamasik) to describe Her. Saptashati rahasyam (from Maarkendeya puraanam) clearly describes how Mahaalakshmi came into existence first from nothingness, how Mahaakaali and Mahaasaraswati came from Her and how they brought to existence one male and one female deity each (i.e. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and their consorts).[s.Rath:] Mahakaali is different from Kaali just as Mahalakshmi is different from Lakshmi. So we are talking of different moods of the same mother. As Mahaakaali she gives victory in wars whereas as Dakshina Kaali she gives the supreme path of spirituality. So to say that Kaali is taamasik is wrong as Mahaakaali is her mood when she is going to war and she is not always in this mood. The three Devis go to war with the three names of MahaaSaraswati, Mahalakshmi and mahaKaali forming the Chamunda Hridaya mantra. this is the most powerful war mantra...so your argument is not right as the single mood cannot determine the overall being of the devata.

In that account, it is clearly said that Mahaakaali is composed of the guna tamas and Mahalakshmi is composed of the guna sattwa. Thus, Mahaakaali being taamasik is based in scripture and not my creation.[s.Rath:] The Mahaakaali bija is KliiM which is the same as Krishna bija so technically, MahaaKaali = Krishna, but the Kaali bija is kriiM (with an 'R') and is completely different in its color etc. Everyone here knows about Krishna that when He goes to war, the rest just give up their bodies! Thats kleeM vija.

Again Mahalakshmi is HriiM whereas Lakshmi is ShriiM. Please explain the gunas to me with these vijas so that I can understand what you are trying to say.

You have to bear in mind here that all tamas is not equal and all rajas is not equal either. If Karna Pisachini is a taamasik devata and Mahaakaali is a taamasik devata, it does not make them equal.

All darkness is not equal. Darkness that prevents you from seeing good is bad and darkness that prevents you from seeing bad is good.[s.Rath:] That is a superb analogy. You deserve kudos for this one statement.

Also, all tamas is not "impure" as you imply. All darkness is not impure and all ignorance is not impure. Removing light from certain things and developing ignorance of certain things can be actually quite pure![s.Rath:] Logic seems fine, but can you give me an example where knowledge of anything is bad. Just about anything.

Even sex which was taboo in modern India due to the effect of islamisation of north India, was discussed in quite a lot of detail in the Kamasutra of Vatsayana. Not to forget Arthashastra and other such literature which are written by sages and seers.

I need an example to understand this point.

Yes, Kaali is very pure. But that does not imply that she is "saattwik". Mahaakaali IS taamasik as Saptashati rahasyam unambiguously states. If this fact does not make sense to some, perhaps they are missing something! As I said earlier, taamasik devatas (esp those taamasik devatas who are very pure) are tough to understand. In fact, understanding the three gunas fully is also not easy.[s.Rath:] Dakshina Kaali is PURE SATVA, please think again on this. I am merely trying to say that the mood of the devata is very crucial for understanding mantra sadhana and mantra shastra. Think of guna as resulting in moods of four kind - uttama, madhyama, adhama and udaasina. Then the effet of the gunas can be understood, else we will be just painting deities as black and white without understanding the reasons forthe color and its effetc on us.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

June 7, 2006

| om gurave namah |Dear Gaurav

Your statement is true. You did not understand the purport of Narasimha's statement. What Thakur said is that he will come back and what Thakur did not say is that he will come back "Because of his own desire and compassion and not due to the force of bad karma and sins." I hope it is clear now what Narasimha meant to say in the context as we were talking of the stages of Jivana-mukta.

Best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ¡ü Rath¡Çs Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ¡ü SJCERC ¡ü JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ¡ü Sagittarius Publications----

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:22 AMsohamsa Subject: Re: What Parasara Advocates...

||Jai Ramakrishna||Pranaam Shree Sanjayji & Shree Narasimhaji,[Narasimhaji]-I completely agree with the sentiment. And I am sure Ramakrishna got moksha.Humans may have the fortune of having Swami Vivekananda among them again,but Ramakrishna will not walk this earth again.My Reply -Shree Ramakrishna told himself that He will come again after 100 years for He is an avatara...refer to Gita "....Dharamsamsthaapanaarthaaya Sambhavaami yuge yuge"..Avataras even Gods...take birth for re-establishing Dharma in this world...Wish u all success,With Humbleness,http://gauravastro.blogspot.com

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

June 7, 2006

|om|

Dear Jyotisas,

I found this story when surfing the net for Sringeri Sankaracharya...the text which follows is the words of Sri Abhinav Vidyateertha Mahaswamigal and may be relevant to the debate.

"

To which deity should a person pray?

A Brahmin stood hesitant on the banks of a river in spate, waiting to cross over. He enquired of a Muslim who happened to come that way about the means to reach the farther shore. "Trust in God and jump in, my friend", said the latter. "He will take you across." But the Brahmin shrewd. He did not want to take unnecessary risks. So he told the Muslim, "You dive in first then I will follow.Very well", said the Muslim. Catching hold of his beard and saying, "Allah-Ho-Akbar", he took off. Somehow he managed to ferry himself across. Now, the Brahmin mustered a little courage. He prayed to Ganesha, the destroyer of obstacles. No sooner did he jump than the thought struck him that he would have a greater chance of survival if he prayed to Shiva, Ganesha's father. He, therefore, sought refuge in Shiva as he plunged. Ganesha thought that His great father would protect the Brahmin. Shiva, on the other hand, expected Ganesha, who had jurisdiction over obstacles, to save the man. Neither offered help. The doubting Brahmin had his fatal trip. A person should realize that it is the same Lord who has manifested as Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha etc. Hence he should not imagine that one deity is less potent to help him than another. It is, however, perfectly legitimate for a person to have an Ishta-Devata, a preferred deity, such as Shiva. He ought to think, "It is my beloved Shiva who has taken the forms of all the other divinities, such as Vishnu", rather than, "Vishnu is different form and inferior to Shiva." A person with such an outlook will be fully at ease in any duly-consecrated temple and will not be troubled by thoughts, such as, "If I pray to Vishnu, will Shiva be displeased with me?"

best regards

Hari

On 6/7/06, Sanjay Rath <guruji wrote:

June 8, 2006

Namaskaar Sri Sanjay and Sri NarasimhaJust a small note regarding Gunas and Ma:Ma Kali is not Tamas. All Tamas is Ma Kali. Like Ma lakshmi is not wealth but all wealth is Ma lakshmi. Ma Saraswati is not knowledge, but all knowledge is Ma Saraswati. Whatever we in the world, is nothing but the Lord. In Tantra, the expression of the Lord is Ma. All things that scare us are joined in Tamas. Hence, understand them to be nothing but Ma. Call her Ma Kaali if you wish. All that is desired, that attracts you is nothing but the same Ma. Call he Ma Lakshmi if you wish. By doing so, fears and desire vanish. As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is also recognized as Ma. This makes one free from the same and understand that the objects of the world are nothing but Ma. Ma Kali is therefore, not Tamas and Ma is not afflicted by Gunas. She has lordship over them, being the Prakriti herself.Thanks and RegardsBharat

On 6/7/06, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote:

Dear Sanjay,

> Why did you say that? According to the argument you were just giving in a> previous mail it should be Durga for Rahu in 12th house. Why did you change> to Vyankateswara?

You have misunderstood me. I did not and do not say that Vishnu's avataras should be avoided. Nor did I say that we should strictly stick to the short list Parasara gave for guidance. But I had two issues:

(1) Given that Parasara explicitly mentioned Shiva and Gouri in the context of ishta devata, I take objection to anyone who claims that they cannot be ishta devatas and only Vishnu's forms can be.

Whether deities not explicitly listed by Parasara can be ishta devatas or not is debatable. But, whether deities explicitly listed by Parasara can be ishta devatas or not is, as far as I am concerned, not open to debate! The fact that Parasara explicitly listed them means they can be ishta devatas. Period.

(2) Given that so many deities are lauded in various scriptures as givers of moksha, I object to the claim that only Vishnu grants moksha.

* * *

> So you see you are also saying what I am saying and this saying is based on> your Ista devata guiding you *intuitively* and not all mathematics and> program.

Yes.

There are so many deities and only 9 planets. So, to me, each planet shows umpteen deities (rather than just one Vishnu avatara). I try to judge based on various sign/planet influences on the planet in question to narrow down to a short list of deities. Then I have to select one among the short list of deities, using intuition.

I honestly don't think that I am capable of giving perfect guidance with the imperfect knowledge I have. So I leave it to Mother Sri Mahalakshmi. If She wants me to give the correct guidance in someone's sadhana, She will inspire me accordingly.

> In fac if Ramakrishna Paramhamsa came to you to ask for> Ista devata and that chart, what would you have told him?

I would have loved to note the lord of 12th from karakamsa, Jupiter, being stronger than Sun in 12th and Saturn in moolatrikona dominating over Jupiter and would have loved to suggest " Taarana Kaali " .

Similarly, if Aurobindo had come to me, I would have loved to suggest sadhana of Savitri. If Ramana Maharshi had come to me, I would have loved to send him to Arunachaleshwara.

I am simply seeking better rules that would have allowed me to do so!

* * *

Regarding my statement that Kaali is taamsik, you wrote:

> Kali is very pure and a sister or Krishna. In Puri we are taught that she is> Parameswari and that children can worship her for anything.

>

> America is ridden with all kinds of sex tantras and they have all kinds of> devata guiding them. That is taamasik devata. Karna Pisachini is a taamasik> devata.

This is very tough to understand or appreciate for most people and hence I prefer to not go there, but let me briefly make a couple of important points.

That Mahaakaali is taamasik is not my invention. Saptashati uses the adjective " taamasi " (taamasik) to describe Her. Saptashati rahasyam (from Maarkendeya puraanam) clearly describes how Mahaalakshmi came into existence first from nothingness, how Mahaakaali and Mahaasaraswati came from Her and how they brought to existence one male and one female deity each (i.e. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and their consorts).

In that account, it is clearly said that Mahaakaali is composed of the guna tamas and Mahalakshmi is composed of the guna sattwa. Thus, Mahaakaali being taamasik is based in scripture and not my creation.

You have to bear in mind here that all tamas is not equal and all rajas is not equal either. If Karna Pisachini is a taamasik devata and Mahaakaali is a taamasik devata, it does not make them equal.

All darkness is not equal. Darkness that prevents you from seeing good is bad and darkness that prevents you from seeing bad is good.

Also, all tamas is not " impure " as you imply. All darkness is not impure and all ignorance is not impure. Removing light from certain things and developing ignorance of certain things can be actually quite pure!

Yes, Kaali is very pure. But that does not imply that she is " saattwik " . Mahaakaali IS taamasik as Saptashati rahasyam unambiguously states. If this fact does not make sense to some, perhaps they are missing something! As I said earlier, taamasik devatas (esp those taamasik devatas who are very pure) are tough to understand. In fact, understanding the three gunas fully is also not easy.

May the light of Brahman shine within,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

June 8, 2006

" As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is also recognized as Ma " Wear=Fear in the above sentence. Please pardon the typos. Too many in one email.Thanks and RegardsBharat

On 6/8/06, Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology wrote: