Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

[Guest guest]

OHM SHRI RAGAVENDRAYA NAMAH

JAYA JAGANNATHA

 

Pranaam Gurudeva and PVR,

 

This number of Akshara combined with your earlier teachings of Vedic Numerology makes better sense.

 

In fact when I was checking my name with Vedic Numerology, the names didn't look good and again when I calculated for this lesson also, Solai and Kannan (So-lai - 2 akshara, Kan-nan - 2 akshara) both are referring to 2 Akshara, which is chara. But, in my chart chara rasis are not strong and are mostly malefic (3rd, 6th, 9th - Badhaka, 12th). So, I started looking for a name with 1 or 4 akshara. Interestingly, I ended up with Solaikannan, which is 4 akshara, sthira rasi. In addition, So-lai-kan-nan is 5-3-1-5, reversing this 5135. Dividing this by 12, we get the reminder 11, which is Aquarius, my lagna, which is strong with lagna lord.

 

My Tamil name is Solaikannan, which is one single word and in my childhood and schooldays, everybody called me, Solaikanna. In those days, my life was peaceful, no health or any other major problem. Afterwards, in College and Work places, people either called me Solai or Kannan. And I am continuously having all sorts of troubles including health, mental troubles.

 

At present, 'Solai' is used for personal and official purposes. When I joined SJVC, a voice which guides me all along, told me to use, SolaiKannan. As you can see, I sign by my full name. And my only Oasis for the last 24 years is SJVC, I get peace and satisfaction at SJVC.

 

So, it is very clear that Vedic Akshara and Katayapadi number system has meaning and it works well.

 

Hence, in future, I should go back to my olden days and use one single word name, Solaikannan and I should remove the space, which splits the name.

 

Thanks

Your sisya

Solaikannan

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narsimha Guru,

 

May I seek some clarification on your response to the assignment?

 

for "BHARAT" you have taken 'BHA + RAT' = 2, whereas in the lesson, Sanjay ji has taken 'BHA + RA + T(A)' = 3.

for "INDIA" you have taken 'IN + DI + (Y)A' = 3, whereas for "SOLAI" you have taken 'SO + LAI'. Based on the logic used for 'INDIA', shouldn't we take the latter also as 'SO + LA + (Y)I', the way it is pronounced?

Similarly, reg. your differenciation between 'SANJAYA' and 'SANJAY', dont you think we should go by the pronounciation, and not by the spelling conventions (of North/ South India), because these conventions can be traced to Britishers, and have nothing to do with the original Sanskrit word, else how do we differentiate between 'RAMA' (RAAMA) & 'RAMA' (RAMAA).

I will be grateful for your clarifications/ guidance.

 

Shailesh

 

 

PS: In this connection, I had posted the following mail to Sanjay ji, through SJVC list, and am waiting for feedback.

 

 

 

Namaste Sanjay Guru ji,

 

On going through this lesson, I am beset with the following doubts and request your clarifications:

 

1. How do we deal with the words whose phoneme value is less thatn 2 or greater than 4. Since the Movable/ Dual/ Fixed values start with 2, we cannot have a repeating cycle.

 

Examples:

Shri – it will have phoneme value of 1.

Constantinople – it’s phoneme value will be 5

 

2. If a vowel is pronounced like a full-fledged phoneme, does it get a value of 1.

 

Examples:

America –will it have phoneme value of 3 or 4 [ if the 1st ‘a’ is given value of 1, total becomes 4.

Russia – since it is pronounced as ‘ru’ +’shi’ + ‘aa’, should it get a value of 3?

Ethopia- here we have full-sound vowels ad both ends, i.e. ‘ee’ +’tho’+’pi’+’aa’. As per normal rules, the value will be 2 but going by pronunciation, it can be 4.

 

Kindly elaborate on the above points.

 

With sincere regards,

 

Shailesh

 

-

pvr108

varahamihira

Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:51 AM

[Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

Pranaams Sanjaya,Phyl, when you take "phyllis", the "y" is pronounced as an vowel(like "i"). First write it based on pronunciation (e.g. "Fillis") andthen divide it into phonemes. Remember that each phoneme starts atthe consonant immediately preceding an vowel. Each phoneme has onevowel (ai, oa, au etc are considered as one long vowel). So your namebecomes "fil | lis". The two consonanta are i (y) and i and theconsonants immediately preceding them are f (ph) and l. So phonemesstart with them. These are the two phonemes.Now my answers to the assignment:> Assignment:> 1. Determine the number of phonemes in the following names & > give your inferences:> (a) (i) Solai (ii) Phyllis (iii) Phyl (iv) Narasimha (v) Robert> (vi) Patraka (vii) Brendan(a)(i) so | lai. 2. movable.(ii) fil | lis. 2. movable.(iii) fil. 1. fixed.(iv) na | ra | sim| ha. 4. fixed. (PVR: pee | vee | aar. 3. dual.)(v) ro | bert. 2. movable.(vi) pat | ra | ka. 3. dual.(vii) bren | dan. 2. movable.> (b) (i) Bill (ii) William and indicate the advantage of using> the name Bill in the chart of Bill Clinton.(b)(i) bil. 1.(ii) wi | li | yam. 3.Bill shows 1, i.e. fixed signs like 4. Sun showing power is strong infixed Leo.> © What is the impact of the two different names for a country> - examine (i) India & Bharat or any other example.In | di | ya has 3 and shows dual signs. Bha | rat has 2 phonemes andshows movable signs. India's chart excellent raja yogas in Cancer.> 2. Determine the number of phonemes in the following mantra:> (a) Om namo bhagavate vasudevaayaOm | na | mo | bha | ga | va | te | vaa | su | de | vaa | ya. 12.> (b) Om namo NaarayanayaOm | na | mo | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya. 8.> © Which is the correct Shiva Panchakshari (pancha means FIVE> & Akshara means phoneme) Mantra (i) Om namah Shivaaya OR (ii)> Namah SivaayaOm | na | mah | shi | vaa | ya has 6.na | mah | shi | vaa | ya has 5.The latter's the panchakshari mantra.> (d) Which is the correct Vishnu astakshari mantra? Hint (Ashta> means eight & akshara means phoneme) (i) Om namo naarayanaya OR> (ii) Om hreem naarayanaya namah OR (iii) Om namo naraayanaya namahOm | na | mo | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya has 8.Om | hreem | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya | na | mah has 9.Om | na | mo | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya | na | mah has 10.First one is right. (Others are good too, but not ashtakshari.)Hare Rama Krishna isha | re | raa | ma | krish | na, i.e. 6.Now, one comment on your example:> 2. Determine the number of phoneme in the name SANJAY> Step 1: Draw vertical lines over A (between S & N) and A (between J & Y).> Step 2: none of the lines are adjacent.> Step 3: 2 lines and hence, 3 segments are formed. 3 phonesindicates strong dual signs.If you write/pronounce it as "Sanjay" (in a halanta way as is typicalin north India), it has only two syllables - "san | jay". You can'tdivide it as "san | ja | y" because the last consonant "y" is not asyllable by itself. Svara (vowel) is the life of an akshara. Aphoneme can exist without a consonant, but it cannot exist without anvowel. So "y" at the end is not an independent phoneme, but becomes apart of "ja". So there are only two phonemes - "san" and "jay".Similarly, the word "tat" (meaning "that") is only one syllable andnot two.On the other hand, if you pronounce your name as "Sanjaya" instead,then you are right - it becomes "San | ja | ya" and has threesyllables. This brings the blessings of Meena Guru and yogada Mars.That's why I like to address you as "Sanjaya" instead of "Sanjay".That is the right way in Sanskrit anyway - it is an akaaraanta sabdaand not a halanta sabda.Your sishya,Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

------------------------

Dear Narasimha

You were brilliant and I thought that nobody in the class was going to catch

that Phyl or Phyllis inspite of giving the hint on pronunciation. But then you

have also made some slips due to your hurry.

Solai is 2 (OK)

Fil or Phil as the pronunciation is is also 2 phonemes. draw a line over 'i' and

then there are 2 segments giving two phonemes. l maybe quite silent, yet it is a

phoneme.

In narasimha, the line should be over 'i'. rest is perfect.

Robert has two lines over 'o' & 'e' thus it has 3 segments or 3 phonemes (dual).

Again patraka = pa| tra| ka i.e. 3 segments and not the points you indicate.

Brendan = bre| nda| n i.e. 3 segments (dual)

Bill = bi| ll = 2 (movable)

 

Point is you are using your sanskrit knowledge and not the rules and hence the

problems. If you use sanskrit knowledge, then write the names in devanagari and

the same results will obtain as I have given for the english language using the

rules I have devised for the purpose. The hint for sanskrit here is to count

complete akshara only.

 

Just write the name as you would pronounce it. This can be different for

different tongues.

Best Regards,

Sanjay Rath

Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

-

" pvr108 " <pvr

<varahamihira >

Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:51 AM

[Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

 

 

> Pranaams Sanjaya,

>

> Phyl, when you take " phyllis " , the " y " is pronounced as an vowel

> (like " i " ). First write it based on pronunciation (e.g. " Fillis " ) and

> then divide it into phonemes. Remember that each phoneme starts at

> the consonant immediately preceding an vowel. Each phoneme has one

> vowel (ai, oa, au etc are considered as one long vowel). So your name

> becomes " fil | lis " . The two consonanta are i (y) and i and the

> consonants immediately preceding them are f (ph) and l. So phonemes

> start with them. These are the two phonemes.

>

> Now my answers to the assignment:

>

> > Assignment:

> > 1. Determine the number of phonemes in the following names &

> > give your inferences:

> > (a) (i) Solai (ii) Phyllis (iii) Phyl (iv) Narasimha (v) Robert

> > (vi) Patraka (vii) Brendan

>

> (a)

> (i) so | lai. 2. movable.

> (ii) fil | lis. 2. movable.

> (iii) fil. 1. fixed.

> (iv) na | ra | sim| ha. 4. fixed. (PVR: pee | vee | aar. 3. dual.)

> (v) ro | bert. 2. movable.

> (vi) pat | ra | ka. 3. dual.

> (vii) bren | dan. 2. movable.

>

> > (b) (i) Bill (ii) William and indicate the advantage of using

> > the name Bill in the chart of Bill Clinton.

>

> (b)

> (i) bil. 1.

> (ii) wi | li | yam. 3.

>

> Bill shows 1, i.e. fixed signs like 4. Sun showing power is strong in

> fixed Leo.

>

> > © What is the impact of the two different names for a country

> > - examine (i) India & Bharat or any other example.

>

> In | di | ya has 3 and shows dual signs. Bha | rat has 2 phonemes and

> shows movable signs. India's chart excellent raja yogas in Cancer.

>

> > 2. Determine the number of phonemes in the following mantra:

> > (a) Om namo bhagavate vasudevaaya

>

> Om | na | mo | bha | ga | va | te | vaa | su | de | vaa | ya. 12.

>

> > (b) Om namo Naarayanaya

>

> Om | na | mo | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya. 8.

>

> > © Which is the correct Shiva Panchakshari (pancha means FIVE

> > & Akshara means phoneme) Mantra (i) Om namah Shivaaya OR (ii)

> > Namah Sivaaya

>

> Om | na | mah | shi | vaa | ya has 6.

> na | mah | shi | vaa | ya has 5.

>

> The latter's the panchakshari mantra.

>

> > (d) Which is the correct Vishnu astakshari mantra? Hint (Ashta

> > means eight & akshara means phoneme) (i) Om namo naarayanaya OR

> > (ii) Om hreem naarayanaya namah OR (iii) Om namo naraayanaya namah

>

> Om | na | mo | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya has 8.

> Om | hreem | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya | na | mah has 9.

> Om | na | mo | naa | raa | ya | naa | ya | na | mah has 10.

>

> First one is right. (Others are good too, but not ashtakshari.)

>

> Hare Rama Krishna is

>

> ha | re | raa | ma | krish | na, i.e. 6.

>

> Now, one comment on your example:

>

> > 2. Determine the number of phoneme in the name SANJAY

> > Step 1: Draw vertical lines over A (between S & N) and A (between J

> & Y).

> > Step 2: none of the lines are adjacent.

> > Step 3: 2 lines and hence, 3 segments are formed. 3 phones

> indicates strong dual signs.

>

> If you write/pronounce it as " Sanjay " (in a halanta way as is typical

> in north India), it has only two syllables - " san | jay " . You can't

> divide it as " san | ja | y " because the last consonant " y " is not a

> syllable by itself. Svara (vowel) is the life of an akshara. A

> phoneme can exist without a consonant, but it cannot exist without an

> vowel. So " y " at the end is not an independent phoneme, but becomes a

> part of " ja " . So there are only two phonemes - " san " and " jay " .

> Similarly, the word " tat " (meaning " that " ) is only one syllable and

> not two.

>

> On the other hand, if you pronounce your name as " Sanjaya " instead,

> then you are right - it becomes " San | ja | ya " and has three

> syllables. This brings the blessings of Meena Guru and yogada Mars.

> That's why I like to address you as " Sanjaya " instead of " Sanjay " .

> That is the right way in Sanskrit anyway - it is an akaaraanta sabda

> and not a halanta sabda.

>

> Your sishya,

> Narasimha

>

> PS: Sanjaya, I am sorry to know that your father-in-law passed away.

> May his soul rest in peace.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

------------------------

Dear Phyl

y is not a vowel, but since this is pronounced as 'i' write Phil and you arrive

at the right answer, which you have got. Phyllis is phillis

Phillis = phi| lli| s = 3 phonemes

The moment you skip the 'line drawing step' mistakes crop in.

Best Regards,

Sanjay Rath

Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

-

" Phyl Chubb MA " <aboutyou

<varahamihira >

Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:08 AM

Re: [Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

 

 

Dear Sanjay,

 

Thank you so much for this lesson on the phonemes, here is my attempt.

 

Valerie 2+1=3 Dual

 

Sanjay 2+1=3 Dual

 

Solai 1+1=2 Moveable

 

Phyllis 2+1=3 Dual Here I have made the Y a vowel however I don't know if this

is permissible.

 

Phyllis 1+1=2 Moveable

 

Phyl 1+1=2 Moveable, here I think I have to make the Y a vowel.

 

My lagna is Aries therefore would I be right is using Phyllis? I have been

confused about my name as I really don't like Phyllis yet using Phyl sounds so

harsh and many people mistake this as a man's name.

 

Narasimha 4+1=5 ?

 

Robert 3+1=4 ?

 

Patraka 3+1=4 ?

 

Brendan 2+1=3 Dual

 

Bill 1+1=2 Moveable

 

William 2+1=3 Dual

 

Using Bill would create more strength besides I believe he has a Moveable lagna

therefore it would be more in harmony with his soul and nature.

 

India 1+1=2 Moveable

 

Bharat 1+1=2 Moveable ? Here the rule about two vowels ending a name applies if

T is taken as a vowel.

 

If the choice of moveable works for each name than I think either name would

apply equally as well. The reason? Moveable signs are strong and capable of

being leaders, just as Ram was strong and a leader.

 

Om namo bhagavate vasudevaaya

 

Om would have no line because O+M are both vowels therefore no line would be

given.

 

Namo - Now we have three vowels in a row: A+M+O could one line be given

resulting in 1+1=2 making this moveable?

 

Bhagavate - Now we hit that rule again because this word ends in 3 vowels, so I

have deleted the last two giving a remainder of 3+1=4

 

Vasudevaaya - Again there are 4+1=5 Is there some rule about using a Y as a

vowel? If it does work in this case as a vowel we have a word ending in 4

vowels.

 

Om namo Naarayanaya

 

Om Namo Naarayanay 5+1= 5

 

Which is correct On namah Shivaay or Namah Sivaaya?

 

Om Namah Shivaay 4+1= 5

 

Or

 

Namah Sivaaya 5+1=6

 

Based on this reasoning (?) I believe On Namah Shivaay would be the correct one

simply because it works out to have 5 phoneme.

 

Om namo naarayanaya = 6

 

Om hreem naarayanaya namah = 8

 

In hreem we are running 3 vowels again EEM therefore I will give this a value of

1.

 

Om namo naraayanaya namah = 8

 

I'll go for Om namo naraayanaya namah or Om hreem naarayanaya namah as being

correct.

 

Phyllis

 

-

Sanjay Rath

sjvc

Cc: Varahamihira

Sunday, May 05, 2002 9:44 PM

[Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

 

 

 

Om Gurave Namah

------------------------

Dear Valerie,

perfectly fine. They who shall speak their mind truthfully shall be able to

learn, and you fit into this category..Akshara means syllables and phoneme as

well. In the present context, it means phoneme or sounds created by the coming

together of two or more syllables. The number of such phoneme in any name is

very important. Lets take a look at your name..Valerie. Now, we braek this into

the syllables - va, a, la, ae, ra and e. Of these syllables, va and a combine to

give the long form vaa which is one phoneme. la and ae combine to give the long

phoneme lae and ra & e combine to give the phoneme re. Thus, you have 3 phonemes

in your name.

Now, the rule: If there are 2 phoneme, the movable signs are strong, 3

phonemes, dual signs are strong and 4 phonemes shows that the fixed signs are

strong.

This rule has been extensively used in naming purposes in ancient India where

the number of syllables in a name would depend on the strongest sign in a chart.

Both Sri Ram and His younger brother Bharat had very strong ascendants.So, their

names were based on their Lagna promising undying fame. India is named Bhaarat

and this land is always serving /worshipping Sri Ram just as His brother had

done so many years back. Now, Rama has two phonemes Ra & Ma showing that the

movable signs were strong and this was true for Ram as His ascendant was Cancer

(Movable). The name Bharat has 3 phonemes - Bha, Ra & Ta indicating strong dual

signs. Bharat's ascendant was Pisces (Dual sign).

Even if you do not know sanskrit, you can still learn this procedure easily.

The simple steps are as follows:

STEP 1: Write the name (in english) and draw vertical lines over the vowels

(a, e, i, o, u). However, if the name starts or ends with one or more vowels,

then do not draw a vertical line over these vowels.

STEP 2: If two lines are adjacent to each other then, rub out or cut one line.

STEP 3: Count the number of segments created. This is the number of phoneme.

In the final analysis, the pronunciation is vital as the number of phonemes

should not be altered in the mantra by an incorrect pronunciation. So long as

this does not happen, the error is not perceivable and perfection comes through

practise of mantra japa. Beejakshara and Kutas are slightly more complicated as

the consonants 'M' or 'T' ending the words are also to be considered as vowels.

 

Example:

1. Determine the numebr of phoneme in the name VALERIE.

Step 1: Draw vertical lines over 'A' (between V & L) and E (between L & E).

Lines cannot be drawn over I & E at the end of the name.

Step 2: None of the lines are adjacent

Step 3: Three segments are formed by two lines (normally the number of

segments = number of lines + 1). Thus there are 3 phonemes making the dual signs

strong.

 

2. Determine the number of phoneme in the name SANJAY

Step 1: Draw vertical lines over A (between S & N) and A (between J & Y).

Step 2: none of the lines are adjacent.

Step 3: 2 lines and hence, 3 segments are formed. 3 phones indicates strong

dual signs.

 

Assignment:

1. Determine the number of phonemes in the following names & give your

inferences:

(a) (i) Solai (ii) Phyllis (iii) Phyl (iv) Narasimha (v) Robert (vi) Patraka

(vii) Brendan

(b) (i) Bill (ii) William and indicate the advantage of using the name Bill in

the chart of Bill Clinton.

© What is the impact of the two different names for a country - examine (i)

India & Bharat or any other example.

2. Determine the number of phonemes in the following mantra:

(a) Om namo bhagavate vasudevaaya

(b) Om namo Naarayanaya

© Which is the correct Shiva Panchakshari (pancha means FIVE & Akshara means

phoneme) Mantra (i) Om namah Shivaaya OR (ii) Namah Sivaaya

(d) Which is the correct Vishnu astakshari mantra? Hint (Ashta means eight &

akshara means phoneme) (i) Om namo naarayanaya OR (ii) Om hreem naarayanaya

namah OR (iii) Om namo naraayanaya namah

 

Best Regards,

Sanjay Rath

Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

-

" ÷ÁÌÅÒÉÑ ìÉ×ÉÎÁ " <livina

<sjvc >

Sunday, May 05, 2002 1:12 PM

Re[6]: [sjvc] KSY

 

 

> Dear Guru Sanjay Rath,

>

> Thank you very much for the explanation though it is too complicated for my

> knowledge, I am sorry. I have found meaning of Akshara as imperishable

Brahman,

> but what did it mean in the context " number of akshara of the mantra " ?

>

> Your words about Chandi and Vinayaka make jyotish really spiritual.

>

> Sorry for my English.

>

> Yours sincerely

>

> Valerie

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shailesh ji,

 

> Namaste Narsimha Guru,

>

> May I seek some clarification on your response to the assignment?

> 1.. for " BHARAT " you have taken 'BHA + RAT' = 2, whereas in the

lesson, Sanjay ji has taken 'BHA + RA + T(A)' = 3.

 

NR: If the given word was " Bharata " with an vowel (a) at the end, it

is indeed 3 syllables. If it is " Bharat " (halanta word, i.e. a word

that ends with a consonant that has no vowel following it), it is

only 2 syllables.

 

> 2.. for " INDIA " you have taken 'IN + DI + (Y)A' = 3, whereas

for " SOLAI " you have taken 'SO + LAI'. Based on the logic used

for 'INDIA', shouldn't we take the latter also as 'SO + LA + (Y)I',

the way it is pronounced?

 

NR: " Solayi " is also a valid word and its pronunciation is different

from " Solai " . In the latter, " ai " is pronounced quickly and as one

long vowel (as in " Aishwarya " ).

 

It all depends on pronunciation. One may indeed pronounce " Solai "

as " Solayi " and make it a 3-syllabled word.

 

> 3.. Similarly, reg. your differenciation between 'SANJAYA'

and 'SANJAY', dont you think we should go by the pronounciation, and

not by the spelling conventions (of North/ South India), because

these conventions can be traced to Britishers, and have nothing to do

with the original Sanskrit word, else how do we differentiate

between 'RAMA' (RAAMA) & 'RAMA' (RAMAA).

 

NR: Yes, I am indeed going by pronunciation.

 

It's not a north/south India " spelling convention " issue, but a

north/south India *pronunciation* issue. And, British have nothing to

do with it. The problem is due to the Muslim influence in north

India. Most Sankrit words end with vowels, but most Arab words end

with consonants. Due to Muslim influence, north Indians skip the

vowel at the end of words and make them halant words (e.g. bhaava-

>bhaav, chara->char, narayana->narayan, raama->raam, sanjaya->sanjay,

bhaarata->bhaarat).

 

Sanskrit also has halant words (e.g. tat, mahat, mahaan, samyak etc).

When these words are written, you write the last consonant that is

devoid of a vowel differently. You write it with a slanted line at

the bottom. In Sanskrit verses, these consonants are not counted as

syllables. For example, " mahat " is written as 3 letters, but the

third letter (t) has a slanted line under it and hence it is not

counted as a syllable. It just becomes a part of the second syllable

and makes it a guru (long syllable). If you look at Sanskrit verses

that have the word " mahat " , it is used as 2 phonemes - one laghu

(short) and one guru (long).

 

While the way words, syllables and letters are represented in

Sanskrit is logical, Hindi allowed a corruption due to Arabic

influence. For example, the same symbol that represents " ta " is

pronounced as " ta " in the middle of a word (e.g. vatan) and

pronounced differently as " t " (halant) at the end of a word (e.g.

jayant).

 

But what matters is pronunciation. Based on it, phoneme distribution

can change.

 

Take a simple mantra: " Om Ganesaaya namah " . It is " om | ga | ne | saa

| ya | na | mah " . It has 7 phonemes.

 

I have seen some north Indians mispronounce it as " Om Ganesaay

Namah " . They pronounce the " y " without an vowel following it. Vowel

(svara) is the life-force (prana) of a syllable. Now " y " ceases to be

a phoneme. So it is " om | ga | ne | saay | na | mah " . It has 6

phonemes.

 

On the other hand, some people, especially some south Indians,

mispronounce namah as namaha. This makes it " om | ga | ne | saa | ya

| na | ma | ha " . It has 8 phonemes.

 

This illustrates how pronounciation decides the number of phonemes.

 

> I will be grateful for your clarifications/ guidance.

 

NR: Those who have formal education in linguistics and phonology can

understand this easier. But remember two things:

 

(1) What matters is the pronunciation. Map the pronunciation into

consonants and vowels.

(2) Each phoneme has exactly one vowel (a, aa, i, ee, u, oo, e, ai,

o, au). It may (or may not) have a consonant before the vowel and

possibly some free hanging consonants after the vowel.

 

> Shailesh

>

> PS: In this connection, I had posted the following mail to Sanjay

ji, through SJVC list, and am waiting for feedback.

 

NR: As Sanjay is busy and I am quite comfortable with this subject, I

will answer instead.

 

> Namaste Sanjay Guru ji,

>

> On going through this lesson, I am beset with the following doubts

and request your clarifications:

>

> 1. How do we deal with the words whose phoneme value is less

thatn 2 or greater than 4. Since the Movable/ Dual/ Fixed values

start with 2, we cannot have a repeating cycle.

 

NR: I may be wrong, but I think 1 is equivalent to 4, 7, 10 etc, 2 is

equivalent to 5, 8, 11 etc and 3 is equivalent to 6, 9, 12 etc.

 

> Examples:

>

> Shri - it will have phoneme value of 1.

>

> Constantinople - it's phoneme value will be 5

 

NR: Yep, you got it right. First write it as " kanstantinopul " .

Identify the vowels. Start phonemes with the consonants immediately

preceding the vowels. Then you get " kan | stan | ti | no | pul " .

 

> 2. If a vowel is pronounced like a full-fledged phoneme, does

it get a value of 1.

 

NR: Yep. Consonants may or may not be present in a phoneme, but vowel

is the prana. The sound " I " , for example, is one phoneme. " O " is one

phoneme. " Om " too is one phoneme.

 

> Examples:

>

> America -will it have phoneme value of 3 or 4 [ if the 1st 'a' is

given value of 1, total becomes 4.

 

NR: It is " a | me | ri | ka " . So 4.

 

> Russia - since it is pronounced as 'ru' +'shi' + 'aa', should

it get a value of 3?

 

NR: If it is pronounced as " rushyaa " , it is " rush | yaa " , i.e. 2

phonemes. OTOH, if it is pronounced as " rushiyaa " , it is " ru | shi |

yaa " , i.e. 3 phonemes.

 

I don't know how Russians pronounce it, but Indians and Americans

pronounce it as " rashyaa " (2).

 

> Ethopia- here we have full-sound vowels ad both ends, i.e. 'ee'

+'tho'+'pi'+'aa'. As per normal rules, the value will be 2 but going

by pronunciation, it can be 4.

 

NR: It is pronounced as " ethiyopiya " . It is " e | thi | yo | pi | ya " ,

i.e. 5 letters.

 

> Kindly elaborate on the above points.

>

> With sincere regards,

>

> Shailesh

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

 

PS: For these who know Hindi or an Indian language, a simple

procedure may be to write the word in their language and count the

letters. That will correspond to the number of phonemes. Only thing

to remember is that the last consonant(s) of a halant word (word

ending in consonant(s)) does not count as a phoneme. Most Indian

language fonts have a special notation for such a consonant, so that

you can easily spot it. In Sanskrit, it is the slanted line at the

bottom of a consonant. Unfortunately, due to the Urdu influence,

Hindi pronounces words as " halanta " but does not write them that way

(i.e. writes without the slanted line - halanta notation - at the

bottom). This is one problem that you have to understand. But for

this, Indian scripts are very logical and the number of letters

corresponds to the number of phonemes.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

> NR: Yep, you got it right. First write it as " kanstantinopul " .

> Identify the vowels. Start phonemes with the consonants immediately

> preceding the vowels. Then you get " kan | stan | ti | no | pul " .

 

As I wrote, phonemes start with the consonant immediately preceding a

vowel (or the vowel itself if it is not preceded by a consonant, i.e.

occurs at the beginning of the word).

 

I made a mistake above in hurry. The second vowel " a "

(kanstAntinopul) is preceded by s and t, but the consonant

immediately preceding a is t. So it should be " kans | tan | ti | no |

pul " .

 

This does not make a difference, as far as phoneme counting is

concerned. But it makes a difference if we use avakahada scheme to

find the number represented by the word. So I thought I should

correct myself.

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narasihma Guru,

 

Thank you for your detailed and well-reasoned answer.

 

This pronunciation difference, especially reg. the last consonant in a word is indeed very prevalent. But then, such differences are not just North/ South India, it varies from region to region. For example, in typically Punjabi fashion, 'scooter' and 'chandra' will be pronounced as 'SAKOOTARA' & 'CHANDARA', where as in Hindi belt, one pronounces 'school' as 'ISKOOLA'.

 

The bottom-line, I suppose, is pronunciation.

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Best regards

 

Shailesh

 

 

 

-

pvr108

varahamihira

Wednesday, May 08, 2002 2:14 AM

[Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

Namaste Shailesh ji,> Namaste Narsimha Guru,>> May I seek some clarification on your response to the assignment?> 1.. for "BHARAT" you have taken 'BHA + RAT' = 2, whereas in thelesson, Sanjay ji has taken 'BHA + RA + T(A)' = 3.NR: If the given word was "Bharata" with an vowel (a) at the end, itis indeed 3 syllables. If it is "Bharat" (halanta word, i.e. a wordthat ends with a consonant that has no vowel following it), it isonly 2 syllables.> 2.. for "INDIA" you have taken 'IN + DI + (Y)A' = 3, whereasfor "SOLAI" you have taken 'SO + LAI'. Based on the logic usedfor 'INDIA', shouldn't we take the latter also as 'SO + LA + (Y)I',the way it is pronounced?NR: "Solayi" is also a valid word and its pronunciation is differentfrom "Solai". In the latter, "ai" is pronounced quickly and as onelong vowel (as in "Aishwarya").It all depends on pronunciation. One may indeed pronounce "Solai"as "Solayi" and make it a 3-syllabled word.> 3.. Similarly, reg. your differenciation between 'SANJAYA'and 'SANJAY', dont you think we should go by the pronounciation, andnot by the spelling conventions (of North/ South India), becausethese conventions can be traced to Britishers, and have nothing to dowith the original Sanskrit word, else how do we differentiatebetween 'RAMA' (RAAMA) & 'RAMA' (RAMAA).NR: Yes, I am indeed going by pronunciation.It's not a north/south India "spelling convention" issue, but anorth/south India *pronunciation* issue. And, British have nothing todo with it. The problem is due to the Muslim influence in northIndia. Most Sankrit words end with vowels, but most Arab words endwith consonants. Due to Muslim influence, north Indians skip thevowel at the end of words and make them halant words (e.g. bhaava->bhaav, chara->char, narayana->narayan, raama->raam, sanjaya->sanjay,bhaarata->bhaarat).Sanskrit also has halant words (e.g. tat, mahat, mahaan, samyak etc).When these words are written, you write the last consonant that isdevoid of a vowel differently. You write it with a slanted line atthe bottom. In Sanskrit verses, these consonants are not counted assyllables. For example, "mahat" is written as 3 letters, but thethird letter (t) has a slanted line under it and hence it is notcounted as a syllable. It just becomes a part of the second syllableand makes it a guru (long syllable). If you look at Sanskrit versesthat have the word "mahat", it is used as 2 phonemes - one laghu(short) and one guru (long).While the way words, syllables and letters are represented inSanskrit is logical, Hindi allowed a corruption due to Arabicinfluence. For example, the same symbol that represents "ta" ispronounced as "ta" in the middle of a word (e.g. vatan) andpronounced differently as "t" (halant) at the end of a word (e.g.jayant).But what matters is pronunciation. Based on it, phoneme distributioncan change.Take a simple mantra: "Om Ganesaaya namah". It is "om | ga | ne | saa| ya | na | mah". It has 7 phonemes.I have seen some north Indians mispronounce it as "Om GanesaayNamah". They pronounce the "y" without an vowel following it. Vowel(svara) is the life-force (prana) of a syllable. Now "y" ceases to bea phoneme. So it is "om | ga | ne | saay | na | mah". It has 6phonemes.On the other hand, some people, especially some south Indians,mispronounce namah as namaha. This makes it "om | ga | ne | saa | ya| na | ma | ha". It has 8 phonemes.This illustrates how pronounciation decides the number of phonemes.> I will be grateful for your clarifications/ guidance.NR: Those who have formal education in linguistics and phonology canunderstand this easier. But remember two things:(1) What matters is the pronunciation. Map the pronunciation intoconsonants and vowels.(2) Each phoneme has exactly one vowel (a, aa, i, ee, u, oo, e, ai,o, au). It may (or may not) have a consonant before the vowel andpossibly some free hanging consonants after the vowel.> Shailesh>> PS: In this connection, I had posted the following mail to Sanjayji, through SJVC list, and am waiting for feedback.NR: As Sanjay is busy and I am quite comfortable with this subject, Iwill answer instead.> Namaste Sanjay Guru ji,>> On going through this lesson, I am beset with the following doubtsand request your clarifications:>> 1. How do we deal with the words whose phoneme value is lessthatn 2 or greater than 4. Since the Movable/ Dual/ Fixed valuesstart with 2, we cannot have a repeating cycle.NR: I may be wrong, but I think 1 is equivalent to 4, 7, 10 etc, 2 isequivalent to 5, 8, 11 etc and 3 is equivalent to 6, 9, 12 etc.> Examples:>> Shri - it will have phoneme value of 1.>> Constantinople - it's phoneme value will be 5NR: Yep, you got it right. First write it as "kanstantinopul".Identify the vowels. Start phonemes with the consonants immediatelypreceding the vowels. Then you get "kan | stan | ti | no | pul".> 2. If a vowel is pronounced like a full-fledged phoneme, doesit get a value of 1.NR: Yep. Consonants may or may not be present in a phoneme, but vowelis the prana. The sound "I", for example, is one phoneme. "O" is onephoneme. "Om" too is one phoneme.> Examples:>> America -will it have phoneme value of 3 or 4 [ if the 1st 'a' isgiven value of 1, total becomes 4.NR: It is "a | me | ri | ka". So 4.> Russia - since it is pronounced as 'ru' +'shi' + 'aa', shouldit get a value of 3?NR: If it is pronounced as "rushyaa", it is "rush | yaa", i.e. 2phonemes. OTOH, if it is pronounced as "rushiyaa", it is "ru | shi |yaa", i.e. 3 phonemes.I don't know how Russians pronounce it, but Indians and Americanspronounce it as "rashyaa" (2).> Ethopia- here we have full-sound vowels ad both ends, i.e. 'ee'+'tho'+'pi'+'aa'. As per normal rules, the value will be 2 but goingby pronunciation, it can be 4.NR: It is pronounced as "ethiyopiya". It is "e | thi | yo | pi | ya",i.e. 5 letters.> Kindly elaborate on the above points.>> With sincere regards,>> ShaileshMay Jupiter's light shine on us,NarasimhaPS: For these who know Hindi or an Indian language, a simpleprocedure may be to write the word in their language and count theletters. That will correspond to the number of phonemes. Only thingto remember is that the last consonant(s) of a halant word (wordending in consonant(s)) does not count as a phoneme. Most Indianlanguage fonts have a special notation for such a consonant, so thatyou can easily spot it. In Sanskrit, it is the slanted line at thebottom of a consonant. Unfortunately, due to the Urdu influence,Hindi pronounces words as "halanta" but does not write them that way(i.e. writes without the slanted line - halanta notation - at thebottom). This is one problem that you have to understand. But forthis, Indian scripts are very logical and the number of letterscorresponds to the number of phonemes.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shailesh ji,

 

> Namaste Narasihma Guru,

>

> Thank you for your detailed and well-reasoned answer.

>

> This pronunciation difference, especially reg. the last consonant

in a word is indeed very prevalent. But then, such differences are

not just North/ South India, it varies from region to region. For

example, in typically Punjabi fashion, 'scooter' and 'chandra' will

be pronounced as 'SAKOOTARA' & 'CHANDARA', where as in Hindi belt,

one pronounces 'school' as 'ISKOOLA'.

>

> The bottom-line, I suppose, is pronunciation.

>

> Thanks, once again.

>

> Best regards

>

> Shailesh

 

You are right. Remember what Sanjay wrote in the first mail on this

series: " In the final analysis, the pronunciation is vital as the

number of phonemes should not be altered in the mantra by an

incorrect pronunciation. "

 

I've already given examples of how wrong pronunciation can alter the

number of phonemes in a mantra.

 

Correct knowledge of Sanskrita, linguistics and phonology will help

one in correctly understanding phonemes and pronouncing mantras

accurately.

 

But, the bottomline is - if you are sincere and devoted, He will

ensure that you get the correct pronunciation eventually. It may

happen in a day, a week, a month, a year, 10 years, a life, 10 lives

or whatever. If you are sincere, you will finally get it right.

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Om Namo Narayanaya

Dear List,

My answers for the lesson.

 

Assignment:

1. Determine the number of phonemes in the following names & give your inferences:

(a) (i) So-lai=2

Movable Signs Activating. AL is Libra with Venus and 7th occupied by Rx Jupier.

Fame, obstracles, Occult/ Traditional learning (A5), can be expected.

 

(ii) Phyllis

Fi-li-s= 3 Duel signs activating

 

(iii) Phyl

Fi-l= 2 Movable signs activating

 

Phyl is much better as Movable signs with Gaja-keshari yoga in 10th from AL

 

(iv) Na-ra-si-m-ha = more than 4. If we remove 4, rem. 1. Which signs activating ?

 

(v) Ro-be-rt = 3 Dueal Signs

 

(vi) Pa-tra-ka= 3 Duel signs

 

(vii) Bre-nda-n= 4 Fixed signs activating with Dharmakarmadipati yoga. AK conjined with 11th and 8th lord Mercury. Occult studies.

 

I have 3 names.

Ka-ru=2 Movable signs activating. 5 planets in Capricorn inclusing AK, Rahu in 12th from AL. Moon in mouth of Ketu. Lot of suffering in material life, but lot of joy in spiritual life.

 

Ba-N-Du-La= 4 fixed signs activating. AL in Leo with Jupiter, Venus and Sun in 7th. Good for material life.

 

Hee-n-ke-n-da =5

 

 

(b) (i) Bill (ii) William and indicate the advantage of using the name Bill in the chart of Bill Clinton.

Bi-l=2, Movable signs activating with Jupiter and Moon in AL/7th (FAME, POWER in early ages (4th).

Wi-li-ya-m=4 Fixed signs activating would not promote as political career. But still good for money (HL) and power(GL)

 

© What is the impact of the two different names for a country - examine (i) India & Bharat or any other example.

Si-lo-n=3 Duel signs stronger. .

La-n-ka= Duel signs stronger

Sri-La-n-ka= Fixed signs stronger.

 

2. Determine the number of phonemes in the following mantra:

(a) Om- na-mo- bha-ga-va-te -va-su-de-va-aya

12, natural 12 house Pisces (Moksha) is activating.

 

(b) Om -na-mo- Naa-ra-ya-na-ya

8, natural 8th Scorpio activating. (Ocult siences, Moksha)

 

© Which is the correct Shiva Panchakshari (pancha means FIVE & Akshara means phoneme) Mantra

(i) Om -na-ma-h Shi-vaa-ya =6

(ii) Na-ma-h Si-vaa-ya =5 correct

 

(d) Which is the correct Vishnu astakshari mantra? Hint (Ashta means eight & akshara means phoneme)

(i) Om -na-mo- naa-ra-ya-na-ya =8 correct

(ii) Om- hreem- naa-ra-ya-na-ya -na-ma-h =10

(iii) Om -na-mo- na-raa-ya-na-ya- na-ma-h=11

Thanks,

Karu

[Guest guest]

Pranaam Sanjaya,

 

Unfortunately, you are making mistakes and I am forced to correct you. My

statements are supported by both ancient Sanskrita chhandas (metrology) and

modern linguistics and phonology. I am well-versed in both.

 

You are going by how words are written in Devanagari script and thinking

that each letter there exactly corresponds to a phoneme. That is not

correct. The number of letters does correspond to the number of phonemes

(barring halantas), but the letters themselves don't correspond to phonemes

directly.

 

For example, when we write " patraka " in Devanagari, we write it as

pa+tra+ka. That doesn't mean this is the correct phoneme division.

 

Phonemes are units of pronunciation. We pronounce each phoneme as a unit. In

patraka, we pronounce pat together and ra potentially after a slight break

and ka potentially after another slight break. Though we write in Devanagari

as pa+tra+ka, the phonemes are pat+ra+ka. This is why -

 

(1) The word patraka is considered in Sanskrita as a Guru, Laghu, Laghu

(long, short, short). Do you know why the letter (pa here) before a

samyuktakshara (multi-consonant letter tra here) is considered to be a guru

even if it has a short vowel (a in pa here) and otherwise a laghu?

 

The reason is simple. In phonological terms, it is supposed to be pat + ra +

ka. The consonant t is transferred to the end of the first phoneme. Because

of the hanging consonant (t here) at the end of the first phoneme (pat), it

becomes long (guru). Pa is a short sound, but pat is long.

 

(2) Also, when the word " patraka " is decoded using avakahada scheme, we take

p, r and k instead of p, t and k. That's also because the phonemes are pat +

ra + ka and the consonants p, r and k carry the prana (vowel) of each

phoneme.

 

Phonemes are units of sound and don't exactly correspond to letters as

written in modern Devanagari script. What I wrote above is in agreement with

modern linguistics as well as Pingala's chhandas (which is still used in

classical poetry in most Indian language). You study either and you will see

my point. Please try to understand it.

 

> Fil or Phil as the pronunciation is is also 2 phonemes.

> draw a line over 'i' and then there are 2 segments giving

> two phonemes. l maybe quite silent, yet it is a phoneme.

 

You are wrong. Phil is simply one phoneme and not two. It is an

unquestionable fact.

 

Vowel is the prana (lifeforce) of a phoneme. There cannot be a phoneme

without an vowel. The sound " l " can NEVER be a phoneme by itself.

 

The confusion is that it is written as " phi la " in Hindi, though still

pronounced as " phil " (thanks to the Arab halanta influence). That may be why

you are thinking that it has 2 phonemes (2 letters). But this is due to the

idiosyncracy of how Hindi represents sounds in Devanagari script. In proper

Sanskrita, you would represent the pronunciation of phil in Devanagari

differently. You would write phi and then la with halanta notation (slanted

line at the bottom). When that halanta notation is there, it is not a

separate phoneme, but an extension to the previous phoneme. So phil is JUST

ONE phoneme.

 

If you see the uses of " tat " , " etat " , " mahat " , " keertayet " etc in Sanskrit

verses, you will clearly see that the hanging consonant at the end of these

halanta words is NOT treated as a phoneme. For example, if you take

 

" treen lokan vyaapya bhootaatmaa | bhunkte viswabhugavyayah | "

 

in the phalasruti of Vishnu Sahasra Naamam, it becomes

 

treen + lo+kaan vyaap+ya + bhoo+taat+maa (8 phonemes)

bhun+kte + vis+wa+bhu+gav+ya+yah (8 phonemes)

 

treen is one phoneme and not two. Lokan is two phonemes and not three. The

last consonant " n " is not a separate phoneme in either word. Otherwise

anushtup chhandas (meter) gets broken.

 

The same applies to the pronunciation of " Phil " . It is one phoneme.

 

> In narasimha, the line should be over 'i'. rest is perfect.

 

I did not use your lines procedure, nor do I recommend it. It is simply

misleading. My procedure is this:

 

(1) First write the word to reflect the pronunciation (e.g. Fil, Indiya,

Rushya, ethiyopiya etc).

(2) Identify the vowels (long vowels like ai and au are taken as one vowel

and not two).

(3) Each vowel is the prana (lifeforce) of exactly one phoneme. The

consonant that carries this prana marks the start of tje phoneme. So the

phoneme starts in the consonant immediately preceding the vowel (or the

vowel itself, if there is no consonant before it). Here, sh, ph, kh etc are

considered as one consonant and not two (because they ARE, in terms of

sound).

 

This procedure enables one to find the exact phoneme division. It can be

used to count phonemes, find guru, laghu etc, find avakahada decoding etc.

 

> Robert has two lines over 'o' & 'e' thus it has 3 segments

 

Forget your segments. The last consonants (r and t) are hanging consonants

in a halanta word and they cannot form a phoneme without an vowel. It is Ro

+ bert. Only two phonemes. Both modern western linguistics and ancient

Sanskrita chhandas agree on it.

 

For example, look at " hurt " in Webster dictionary and see the number of

syllables. It is given as a one-syllable word. Same holds for bert in Ro

bert.

 

Your understanding of what a phoneme is is suspect.

 

> or 3 phonemes (dual).

 

> Again patraka = pa| tra| ka i.e. 3 segments and not the points you

indicate.

> Brendan = bre| nda| n i.e. 3 segments (dual)

> Bill = bi| ll = 2 (movable)

>

> Point is you are using your sanskrit knowledge and not the rules and hence

the problems. If you use sanskrit knowledge, then write

> the names in devanagari and the same results will obtain as I have given

for the english language using the rules I have devised for

> the purpose. The hint for sanskrit here is to count complete akshara only.

 

Sanjaya, what you are teaching is very clearly wrong. I have not only

studied Sanskrita chhandas properly, but thorough in modern linguistics too.

I have already outlined the arguments to show why what you are teaching is

wrong. I sincerely hope that you see my point.

 

> Just write the name as you would pronounce it. This can be different for

different tongues.

> Best Regards,

> Sanjay Rath

> Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

 

Your sishya,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

Pranaam Sanjaya,

 

> Om Gurave Namah

> ------------------------

> Dear Phyl

> y is not a vowel, but since this is pronounced as 'i' write Phil

and you arrive at the right answer, which you have got. Phyllis is

phillis

> Phillis = phi| lli| s = 3 phonemes

> The moment you skip the 'line drawing step' mistakes crop in.

> Best Regards,

> Sanjay Rath

> Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

 

For the nth time I stress: The hanging consonant s at the end of

halanta word " phyllis " has no prana and hence not a separate

syllable, just like " n " at the end of " treen " and " lokaan " in the

anushtup sloka I quoted in the other mail. One of the rules of

anushtup is that there should be 8 aksharas (phonemes) in each of the

four lines. If your rules were to be applied, those slokas break the

meter.

 

If you want validation from modern linguistics, just look at Webster

dictionary for a word similar to Phyllis that can be found in the

dictionary. Examples are palace, wallace, dallas etc. You will see

them listed as two-syllabled words with the last sound " s " included

in the second phoneme (rather than being taken as the third phoneme).

 

Your stand is wrong according to both Sanskrita grammar and modern

lingustics. Phyl is a one-syllable word and Phyllis has two.

 

Your sishya,

Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

------------------------

Dear Narasimha

Point is not that. How will you write Phyllis in devanagari? will it not be pha

with an e matra, then la with another e matra and then sa. Expunging the matra,

we get three akshara.

I am not questioning the anusthup and other standards, but am merely trying to

find a simple method by which people who do not know sanskrit can get to the

number of akshara.

Lets try Wallace by the two methods:

Wa|lla|ce = 3 akshara

va + ae matra + la + ae matra + sa = 3 akshara

Lets try Dallas

Da| lla|s = 3 akshara

dda + ae matra + la + sa = 3 akshara

Try Palace also

pa| la| ce = 3 akshara

pa + ae matra + la + ae matra + sa = 3 akshara

I am still not clear as to where the case is going wrong. The basic point is

that by using this new method the students of Jaimini can learn katapayadi

varga, but not all vargas of Vedic Numerology can be learnt by this method.

Best Regards,

Sanjay Rath

Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

-

" pvr108 " <pvr

<varahamihira >

Wednesday, May 08, 2002 9:47 PM

[Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

 

 

> Hare Rama Krishna

> Pranaam Sanjaya,

>

> > Om Gurave Namah

> > ------------------------

> > Dear Phyl

> > y is not a vowel, but since this is pronounced as 'i' write Phil

> and you arrive at the right answer, which you have got. Phyllis is

> phillis

> > Phillis = phi| lli| s = 3 phonemes

> > The moment you skip the 'line drawing step' mistakes crop in.

> > Best Regards,

> > Sanjay Rath

> > Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

>

> For the nth time I stress: The hanging consonant s at the end of

> halanta word " phyllis " has no prana and hence not a separate

> syllable, just like " n " at the end of " treen " and " lokaan " in the

> anushtup sloka I quoted in the other mail. One of the rules of

> anushtup is that there should be 8 aksharas (phonemes) in each of the

> four lines. If your rules were to be applied, those slokas break the

> meter.

>

> If you want validation from modern linguistics, just look at Webster

> dictionary for a word similar to Phyllis that can be found in the

> dictionary. Examples are palace, wallace, dallas etc. You will see

> them listed as two-syllabled words with the last sound " s " included

> in the second phoneme (rather than being taken as the third phoneme).

>

> Your stand is wrong according to both Sanskrita grammar and modern

> lingustics. Phyl is a one-syllable word and Phyllis has two.

>

> Your sishya,

> Narasimha

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

------------------------

Dear Narasimha

Of course you are correct about the fact that this is not the correct phoneme

division and in any casse this was not what I was doing. Try to understand what

I am attempting - I am trying to teach a simple method to determine the number

of akshara in a word without having to learn sanskrit. That way they can also

learn the value of the Katapayadi varga after I am able to develop this further.

Take Patraka and try my method:

Pa| tra| ka = 3 akshara

So, this also matches the same result we get from using the devanagari script.

An exact correspondence is difficult and this method is to be used for

determining the number of akshara till I am able to find some more keys to

improving it for the specific akshara themselves. RIGHT NOW, THE POINT IS TO GET

TO THE NUMBER OF AKSHARA. So, please tell me those cases where this does not

work rather than deviating. I cannot create a substitute for sanskrit - it is

impossible, but I can make the ladder which they can use to climb....

This is an important lesson on akshara's in a name, be it for personal names,

institutions etc and is a vital tool for Jyotish.

Best Regards,

Sanjay Rath

Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

-

" Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr

<varahamihira >

Wednesday, May 08, 2002 7:07 PM

[Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

 

 

> Pranaam Sanjaya,

>

> Unfortunately, you are making mistakes and I am forced to correct you. My

> statements are supported by both ancient Sanskrita chhandas (metrology) and

> modern linguistics and phonology. I am well-versed in both.

>

> You are going by how words are written in Devanagari script and thinking

> that each letter there exactly corresponds to a phoneme. That is not

> correct. The number of letters does correspond to the number of phonemes

> (barring halantas), but the letters themselves don't correspond to phonemes

> directly.

>

> For example, when we write " patraka " in Devanagari, we write it as

> pa+tra+ka. That doesn't mean this is the correct phoneme division.

>

> Phonemes are units of pronunciation. We pronounce each phoneme as a unit. In

> patraka, we pronounce pat together and ra potentially after a slight break

> and ka potentially after another slight break. Though we write in Devanagari

> as pa+tra+ka, the phonemes are pat+ra+ka. This is why -

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

CHECK BELOW - RIGHT & WRONG

-

" karu " <heen

<varahamihira >

Wednesday, May 08, 2002 1:56 PM

Re: [Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

 

 

Om Namo Narayanaya

Dear List,

My answers for the lesson.

Assignment:

1. Determine the number of phonemes in the following names & give your

inferences:

(a) (i) So-lai=2

Movable Signs Activating. AL is Libra with Venus and 7th occupied by Rx

Jupier.

Fame, obstracles, Occult/ Traditional learning (A5), can be expected.

 

(ii) Phyllis

Fi-li-s= 3 Duel signs activating

RIGHT

(iii) Phyl

Fi-l= 2 Movable signs activating

RIGHT

Phyl is much better as Movable signs with Gaja-keshari yoga in 10th from AL

RIGHT

(iv) Na-ra-si-m-ha = more than 4. If we remove 4, rem. 1. Which signs

activating ?

WRONG Na| ra| si| mha =4 fixed (Don't break my rules)

(v) Ro-be-rt = 3 Dueal Signs

RIGHT

(vi) Pa-tra-ka= 3 Duel signs

RIGHT

(vii) Bre-nda-n= 4 Fixed signs activating with Dharmakarmadipati yoga. AK

conjined with 11th and 8th lord Mercury. Occult studies.

WRONG Bre| nda| n = 3

 

I have 3 names.

Ka-ru=2 Movable signs activating. 5 planets in Capricorn inclusing AK, Rahu in

12th from AL. Moon in mouth of Ketu. Lot of suffering in material life, but lot

of joy in spiritual life.

RIGHT

Ba-N-Du-La= 4 fixed signs activating. AL in Leo with Jupiter, Venus and Sun

in 7th. Good for material life.

WRONG Ba| ndu| la =3 (Dual)

 

Hee-n-ke-n-da =5

WRONG

 

Sanjay Rath

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

------------------------

Dear Narasimha

Why are you using the Avakhanda scheme for this? No it won't work. It won't work

even for Katapayadi varga at its present stage of development. See if you can

add some rules to make it work for Katapayadi at least.

Best Regards,

Sanjay Rath

Web: http://sanjayrath.tripod.com

-

" pvr108 " <pvr

<varahamihira >

Wednesday, May 08, 2002 2:26 AM

[Hare Rama Krishna] Re: Lesson on Phonemes - Valerie's question

 

 

> Namaste,

>

> > NR: Yep, you got it right. First write it as " kanstantinopul " .

> > Identify the vowels. Start phonemes with the consonants immediately

> > preceding the vowels. Then you get " kan | stan | ti | no | pul " .

>

> As I wrote, phonemes start with the consonant immediately preceding a

> vowel (or the vowel itself if it is not preceded by a consonant, i.e.

> occurs at the beginning of the word).

>

> I made a mistake above in hurry. The second vowel " a "

> (kanstAntinopul) is preceded by s and t, but the consonant

> immediately preceding a is t. So it should be " kans | tan | ti | no |

> pul " .

>

> This does not make a difference, as far as phoneme counting is

> concerned. But it makes a difference if we use avakahada scheme to

> find the number represented by the word. So I thought I should

> correct myself.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

>

>

>

>

>