The SAMVA chart for the USA

January 7, 2007

Dear list members,

Let me begin by thanking for his important

assessment of the newly proposed 21° Cancer rising chart for the USA.

The chart is based on Maryland becoming the 13th and final state to

approve the Articles of Confederation in Annapolis, Maryland at 17:05

hrs on February 2, 1781.

In 1777, the Continental Congress adopted the thirteen stars and

stripes as the flag of the independent states acting in combination.

The " Articles of Confederation " were drafted, but did not come into

operation until 1781 - when Maryland agreed to ratify them.

(http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/America.htm)

The ratification of the Articles of Confederation by Maryland was

thus a long awaited event that signaled the effective beginning of

the United States of America as a federal entity.

But let´s back up a bit and for the benefit of list members and

recount the interesting but arduous and long story behind the

discovery of this chart on the SA lists. For fairness sake I take the

time to acknowledge the main contributors. Of course, such a review

is based on my personal perspective and memory. The discovery of

this chart builds on a continuing investigation by a few list members

with the expert guidance of since 1998. The

discussion began on SATVA in 1998 and continued on SAMVA.

[side note: SAMVA was founded based on an auspicious time given by

on November 28, 2000 at 23:30 in Paris. The chart

for SAMVA has 5° 26' Leo rising and L1 Sun at 13° Scorpio in H4 in

mutual aspect with L5 Jupiter at 12° Taurus H10. Moreover, L3 Venus

is at 26° Sagittarius H5. The Ve/Ju period is running in this chart.]

A salient effort on the SA lists, in addition to learning and

applying SA at the personal level, has been to discover an authentic

mundane chart for countries of interest, not least the important

USA. There have been countless charts explored and made predictions

against over almost a decade. For each prediction the time has passed

and some chart has either continued to be watched or fallen by the

way side.

It is important to note that the 21° Cancer rising chart on Feb 2

1781 owes to the prior work done by Mr. Ron Grimes on the March 1

1781 chart. Notably, Mr. Grimes identified the 21st degree of a

Cancer rising chart through intuition. Importantly, Mr. Grimes was

quite emphatic about the importance of the Articles of Confederation

as a corner stone in the founding of the US as a federal entity. He

focused on the formal ratification that took place in Philadelphia,

Pennsylvania on March 1, 1781. also found

something to like in this chart, including the aspect of L6 Jupiter

in H5 to L1 Moon in H11. This, he said, explained the 'war like'

nature of the USA and involvement in many wars on foreign soil. The

presence of L10 Mars in Scorpio and H5 he found to explain the income

the US receives from the rest of the world from the sale of software

and entertainment.

After this chart was introduced on SATVA, there were two list

members, myself and Mr. Nicholas Francis, who felt the chart was

overall too weak to represent such a powerful country. The natal

placements were not convincing in terms of the strength of the USA.

suggested the L2 Sun on H8 MEP could explain

the " power status " of the country. The chart was mainly defended by

Mr. Grimes on the basis of the numerous social problems affecting

disadvantaged groups. The debate with Mr. Grimes over the merits of

his proposed chart had taken a toll. He found no basis for the

critiques of his chart. His emphatic attitude resulted in him leaving

the SA lists in the summer of 2000.

In 2000, I developed a 16° Libra rising chart for 4 July 1776, which

was later revised to 20° Libra rising, due to the evident importance

of the 20° - 21° for the destiny of the USA. David Hawthorne also

proposed a Scorpio rising chart on this date, based on some

historical information. The Libra rising chart was appealing because

it showed the strength and idealism of the country. However, it did

not predict well when the 9/11 event rolled around. The Mar 1 chart

was a clear winner in terms of the affliction of transit L8 Saturn at

20° Taurus H11 to natal L2 Sun at 20° Aquarius H8. L6 Jupiter at 17°

Gemini was in supporting role. These transit to natal aspects made a

compelling case for this chart. Privately, advised

me that the choice between the two charts was clear. I saw the logic

of his advice and dropped the 20° Libra chart on SAMVA and accepted

21° Cancer rising chart based on Mar 1 1781.

What seemed to cement the case for the Mar 1 chart was a prediction

made by Mr. Neville Lange on SAMVA in late September 2001 that the US

military might launch an attack on the Taliban regime in Afghanistan

at the exactly specified time of 12:30 on 7 October 2001. The

prediction of Mr. Lange was crucially based on the 21st degree of the

Cancer rising chart. The attacks commenced at 12:15 on 7 October! By

that time, it had become abundantly clear that the Mar 1 chart had

something going for it, overwhelming the earlier misgivings.

Jorge Angelino entered SAMVA in 2003 and soon began make his positive

presence felt on the list. Due to professional reasons in late 2004,

I asked him to take over as moderator of SAMVA. He did so and has

continued with the list in a sterling manner. Based on a technique

learned prior to coming to SA, he embarked on a quest to

systematically rectify charts for all countries in the world.

In the summer of 2004 Jorge identified 2 July 1776 as the likely date

for the birth of the USA and came out with a Virgo rising chart. I

thought his contribution was interesting, and after commenting on the

Virgo rising chart on 2 July 1776 of Jorge Angelino on another list

on 19 September 2004, I received a mail from John TWB on 2 November

2004, where he offered further historical information concerning the

time the vote was taken on 2 July 1776. I passed the information on

to Jorge and the collaboration with John began on SAMVA. Jorge then

moved to a 16° Scorpio rising chart for the USA on that day.

Despite my admiration for Jorge's analysis, I was not satisfied with

this particular chart. It didn't give me a sense of a right fit.

My interest therefore increasingly turned to other alternatives,

based on the postings of John TWB. His contributions became an

exhilarating journey whereby he offered the list members an up close

glimpse of the US historical past through the letters and official

records at the time the country was being founded. Given his profound

knowledge of and access to historical information, I began to ask

John about other possible dates and with his expert assistance as a

first rate historian, he identified other events that had an

important place in the process that could be described as the

countries founding. The events are by now well known to us, from the

approval of the text of the Declaration of Independence on 2 July

1776 to the ceremonial signing on 2 August 1776 to state by state

votes to the formal ratification of the Articles of Confederation on

1 March 1781 and beyond.

Very importantly, John TWB also showed historical records to prove

that the formal ratification of the Articles of Confederation on Mar

1, 1781 could not have taken place at 3:20 PM, the time suggested by

Mr. Grimes resulting in the 21° Cancer ascendant he had intuitively

arrived at. The historical records showed the event had occurred

before noon on that day. This information was a major blow to the

historical credibility of this chart. Due to the strength of this

degree and its success in explaining past events, I felt a need to

remove any doubt about it, in a scientific manner. I therefore made

additional predictions based on the Mar 1 chart in the autumn of

2006. However, these predictions did not really pan out. My

confidence in the Mar 1 chart then began to seriously wane.

However, there was no reason to give up. In August 2006, I asked John

if he would explore other such events for me to test astrologically

with analysis and predictions. Each time he came up with a date, time

and place, I explored and made predictions against it. Often, the

charts did not ring true, but I wanted to avoid having a bias of

perception or intuition, so I let the predictions rule the roost. The

corner stone of astrology has to be the scientific method. Without

it, we have no basis for a claim to credibility. The results of these

predictions were also not promising.

On the morning of 31 December 2006, an e-mail from John was waiting

in my inbox. It simply said " Try: February 2, 1781 at 17:05 Hrs in

Annapolis, Md. John also attached the historical records and

significance. I cast the chart and was immediately impressed with

what I saw. The Feb 2 chart was in many respects like the Mar 1 chart

but without the abundant weaknesses. Importantly, both charts shared

the 21° Cancer rising degree, which had made a strong impression.

Also the nature of Saturn and Jupiter as malefics had made an

impression, suggesting a Cancer ascendant was appropriate for the

USA. After all, Cancer is a royal sign, ruled by the Moon, the queen

of the planetary cabinet. The Sun is also strong, albeit afflicted,

signifying the appeal of the USA for investors who pour money into US

stocks and bonds. This has also kept the dollar stronger than it

should be. The affliction to the Sun probably explains the volatility

of the dollar in the past, in addition to the difficulties to US

Presidents (assassinations, attempted assassinations, impeachments

and resignations under pressure, difficult decisions, etc). The

importance of the USA for the international financial system is

clearly explained by the charts overall strength and placement of the

royal planets, Sun and Moon. In the Feb 2 chart the Moon is exalted

and strong and aspected by Mars, the lord of physical prowess. It is

also aspected but not harmed by Jupiter as lord of conflict. Hence,

the US tends to have strong views, which it can back up with might if

need be and other country's ignore its power at their own peril. The

Sun as lord of status and wealth in H7 shows the importance of

foreign engagement, but also as it aspects H1 of self and fame, gives

preeminent status to the country. Fortunately, the involvement of the

USA in the world has on balance been positive - to promote universal

adoption of the principles of civic freedom, private property, rule

of law and free trade - despite recurrent difficulties associated

with foreign wars. Prime examples of the difficulties are the wars in

Vietnam and Iraq.

The further I tested this chart against key historical events, the

more hopeful I became that it might be the real deal - that the 'holy

grail' of mundane astrology had at long last been uncovered. The work

on the assassinations of US President, involving the notable

affliction of the Sun in the chart by the lord of death, further

drove home the point. By comparison, this element was not so strong

in the Mar 1 chart.

The analysis by of the salient aspects of this

chart is further boosting the confidence. I suspect he is most

pleased with it, as I am, as it comes close to confirm his initial

support for the Mar 1 chart, while confirming his reasons for

supporting that chart in a more convincing way. As such, his initial

thoughts on the Mar 1 chart were influential in making the Feb 2

chart a reality. That said, as with all the past efforts, we must

wait for the coming months to reveal if the chart has power to

predict. If so, it will be a new day for mundane astrology, to at

last have an authentic chart for the USA, the world's most powerful

country. The relief would be palpable, after so much effort and so

many false starts.

has been the lighthouse for our work on SAMVA -

the Systems' Approach to Mundane Vedic Astrology. His introduction of

the System's Approach removed immense confusion that had developed

around the ancient science of Vedic astrology. He has been untiring

in offering us his expert guidance and mentoring all along the way.

His work has also served as the main inspiration. If it were not for

the efficacy of SA in the horoscopes of individuals, this effort to

apply SA in the mundane sphere would never have received so much

effort. We have been diligently applying this knowledge in the area

of mundane Vedic astrology to discover authentic charts for

countries. Much progress has been made. I am also pleased that I have

had a hand in confirming the authenticity of a number of other charts

in the past.

In honor of , with confidence that this chart for

the USA is authentic and in recognition of this entire and

interrelated work, not only by John TWB and myself, who searched for

and identified this event and proposed it on SAMVA on 31 December

2006, but by the many important contributions by Jorge Angelino,

David Hawthorne, Nicholas Francis, Neville Lange, Sateesh Batas, Vyas

Munidas and others concerning a chart for the USA on SAMVA, I propose

this chart from here on out be referred to as

the SAMVA chart for the USA.

Maryland becomes the 13th and final state to ratify the Articles of

Confederation of the United States of America

17:05 hrs (5:06 LMT)

2 February 1781

Annapolis, Md, USA (76W30, 38N59)

20° 59' Cancer ascendant

Best wishes,

C

SAMVA , " Vyas Munidas " <muni> wrote:

>

> Dear Professor,

>

> May I also add to your insightful points, the strength of Mars in

this

> chart, ruling martial strength, is significant for the most

powerful

> military complex on the planet - this is a very key area in any

proposed USA

> chart. Close Ma-Mo aspect also indicates a very strong fighting

spirit and

> courage in abundance. Additionally, the wide Ra-Ve aspect which

would be

> operating for several hundred years now, explains without stretch,

the

> rampant open sexuality and many perversions present.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Vyas Munidas

>

> -

> <siha

> <SAMVA >

> Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:04 AM

> Re: Re: Transit influences in USA chart

>

> > Hello my dear Thor,

> >

> > The interesting thing about this chart is that besides the transit

> > influences for verification of the significant events, the chart

itself

> > shows that it can belong to a country like US. The lord of the

house of

> > status closely influencing the asdt from the seventh house shows

its

> > commanding position in the international affairs. The lord of

the tenth

> > house in the fifth house shows its commanding position in the

intellectual

> > properties in the world. The strong placement of the lord of the

asdt in

> > the eleventh house shows its financial strength. The influence

of lord of

> > sixth house on the lord of the asdt shows its assertive attitude

including

> > use of force in international affairs. The placement of Venus in

the sixth

> > house shows the conflicts raised by its assertive attitude and it

also

> > shows

> > problems in domestic peace felt by its citizens. The close

influence of

> > Saturn on the Sun shows setbacks in the matter of wealth of the

nation and

> > the number of assassination made on the life of the heads of

state. The

> > lord

> > of the third in the seventh house shows its important

intervention in

> > foreign policy around the world.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> > -

> > " cosmologer " <cosmologer

> > <SAMVA >

> > Saturday, January 06, 2007 4:08 PM

> > Re: Transit influences in USA chart

> >

> > Dear ,

> >

> > Thank you very much for considering and sharing with us how the

> > transit impacts in the 21° Cancer rising chart for 2 February 1781

> > are likely to manifest.

> >

> > The prediction offers an excellent guidepost for monitoring the

> > developments in coming months in order to verify the authenticity

of

> > the chart.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> > C

> >

> > SAMVA , <siha@> wrote:

> >>

> >> Hello dear list members,

> >>

> >> In the recently proposed US chart for the 2nd February, 1781,

1705

> > hours,

> >> the transit influences show severe afflictions during middle of

> > March,

> >> 2007, to early May, 2007, indicating lot of controversies,

> > emotional

> >> involvement of the people in controvercial issues,

financial/market

> >> setbacks, fatal/serious accidents, weather vagaries/disturbances,

> > setbacks

> >> in war fields, etc.

> >>

> >> Best wishes,

> >>

> >

January 7, 2007

Dear Cosmologer,

I was fascinated by your analyses of the presidential assassinations

relative to the newly proposed Articles of Confederation chart of the

USA. At first I was concerned that in at least two cases,

presidential assassinations took place in strong benefic subperiods

(Garfield-Moon and Kennedy-Sun) but I think the Professor has

clarified that transit impacts supercede trend results of the sub-

period lord.

Look at the assassination of President John F. Kennedy (Nov. 22,

1963) and notice how tr. MMP Saturn makes an exact conjunction on the

natal Sun (leadership)in addition to the houses afflicted such as

that of the people (1st). Likewise, tr. Jupiter throws an affliction

to the 1st and other houses. Indeed, I remember it to be a very

sorrowful time.

Looking at the happy side of this chart, America's first lunar

landing took place on July 20, 1969 when tr. strong Venus aspected

11H & 5H and tr. strong Ma aspected itself and n. Moon. Emotions were

jubilent (5th house, Moon) as we courageously (Mars) achieved our

goals (11th house).

Thank you for this opportunity to test a new chart. I'm curious to

see how it fares in the future.

Warm regards,

Shayn

SAMVA , " cosmologer " <cosmologer wrote:

>

> Dear list members,

>

> Let me begin by thanking for his important

> assessment of the newly proposed 21° Cancer rising chart for the

USA.

> The chart is based on Maryland becoming the 13th and final state to

> approve the Articles of Confederation in Annapolis, Maryland at

17:05

> hrs on February 2, 1781.

>

> In 1777, the Continental Congress adopted the thirteen stars and

> stripes as the flag of the independent states acting in

combination.

> The " Articles of Confederation " were drafted, but did not come into

> operation until 1781 - when Maryland agreed to ratify them.

> (http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/America.htm)

>

> The ratification of the Articles of Confederation by Maryland was

> thus a long awaited event that signaled the effective beginning of

> the United States of America as a federal entity.

>

> But let´s back up a bit and for the benefit of list members and

> recount the interesting but arduous and long story behind the

> discovery of this chart on the SA lists. For fairness sake I take

the

> time to acknowledge the main contributors. Of course, such a review

> is based on my personal perspective and memory. The discovery of

> this chart builds on a continuing investigation by a few list

members

> with the expert guidance of since 1998. The

> discussion began on SATVA in 1998 and continued on SAMVA.

>

> [side note: SAMVA was founded based on an auspicious time given by

> on November 28, 2000 at 23:30 in Paris. The

chart

> for SAMVA has 5° 26' Leo rising and L1 Sun at 13° Scorpio in H4 in

> mutual aspect with L5 Jupiter at 12° Taurus H10. Moreover, L3 Venus

> is at 26° Sagittarius H5. The Ve/Ju period is running in this

chart.]

>

> A salient effort on the SA lists, in addition to learning and

> applying SA at the personal level, has been to discover an

authentic

> mundane chart for countries of interest, not least the important

> USA. There have been countless charts explored and made predictions

> against over almost a decade. For each prediction the time has

passed

> and some chart has either continued to be watched or fallen by the

> way side.

>

> It is important to note that the 21° Cancer rising chart on Feb 2

> 1781 owes to the prior work done by Mr. Ron Grimes on the March 1

> 1781 chart. Notably, Mr. Grimes identified the 21st degree of a

> Cancer rising chart through intuition. Importantly, Mr. Grimes was

> quite emphatic about the importance of the Articles of

Confederation

> as a corner stone in the founding of the US as a federal entity. He

> focused on the formal ratification that took place in Philadelphia,

> Pennsylvania on March 1, 1781. also found

> something to like in this chart, including the aspect of L6 Jupiter

> in H5 to L1 Moon in H11. This, he said, explained the 'war like'

> nature of the USA and involvement in many wars on foreign soil. The

> presence of L10 Mars in Scorpio and H5 he found to explain the

income

> the US receives from the rest of the world from the sale of

software

> and entertainment.

>

> After this chart was introduced on SATVA, there were two list

> members, myself and Mr. Nicholas Francis, who felt the chart was

> overall too weak to represent such a powerful country. The natal

> placements were not convincing in terms of the strength of the USA.

> suggested the L2 Sun on H8 MEP could explain

> the " power status " of the country. The chart was mainly defended by

> Mr. Grimes on the basis of the numerous social problems affecting

> disadvantaged groups. The debate with Mr. Grimes over the merits of

> his proposed chart had taken a toll. He found no basis for the

> critiques of his chart. His emphatic attitude resulted in him

leaving

> the SA lists in the summer of 2000.

>

> In 2000, I developed a 16° Libra rising chart for 4 July 1776,

which

> was later revised to 20° Libra rising, due to the evident

importance

> of the 20° - 21° for the destiny of the USA. David Hawthorne also

> proposed a Scorpio rising chart on this date, based on some

> historical information. The Libra rising chart was appealing

because

> it showed the strength and idealism of the country. However, it did

> not predict well when the 9/11 event rolled around. The Mar 1 chart

> was a clear winner in terms of the affliction of transit L8 Saturn

at

> 20° Taurus H11 to natal L2 Sun at 20° Aquarius H8. L6 Jupiter at

17°

> Gemini was in supporting role. These transit to natal aspects made

a

> compelling case for this chart. Privately,

advised

> me that the choice between the two charts was clear. I saw the

logic

> of his advice and dropped the 20° Libra chart on SAMVA and

accepted

> 21° Cancer rising chart based on Mar 1 1781.

>

> What seemed to cement the case for the Mar 1 chart was a prediction

> made by Mr. Neville Lange on SAMVA in late September 2001 that the

US

> military might launch an attack on the Taliban regime in

Afghanistan

> at the exactly specified time of 12:30 on 7 October 2001. The

> prediction of Mr. Lange was crucially based on the 21st degree of

the

> Cancer rising chart. The attacks commenced at 12:15 on 7 October!

By

> that time, it had become abundantly clear that the Mar 1 chart had

> something going for it, overwhelming the earlier misgivings.

>

> Jorge Angelino entered SAMVA in 2003 and soon began make his

positive

> presence felt on the list. Due to professional reasons in late

2004,

> I asked him to take over as moderator of SAMVA. He did so and has

> continued with the list in a sterling manner. Based on a technique

> learned prior to coming to SA, he embarked on a quest to

> systematically rectify charts for all countries in the world.

>

> In the summer of 2004 Jorge identified 2 July 1776 as the likely

date

> for the birth of the USA and came out with a Virgo rising chart. I

> thought his contribution was interesting, and after commenting on

the

> Virgo rising chart on 2 July 1776 of Jorge Angelino on another list

> on 19 September 2004, I received a mail from John TWB on 2 November

> 2004, where he offered further historical information concerning

the

> time the vote was taken on 2 July 1776. I passed the information on

> to Jorge and the collaboration with John began on SAMVA. Jorge then

> moved to a 16° Scorpio rising chart for the USA on that day.

> Despite my admiration for Jorge's analysis, I was not satisfied

with

> this particular chart. It didn't give me a sense of a right fit.

>

> My interest therefore increasingly turned to other alternatives,

> based on the postings of John TWB. His contributions became an

> exhilarating journey whereby he offered the list members an up

close

> glimpse of the US historical past through the letters and official

> records at the time the country was being founded. Given his

profound

> knowledge of and access to historical information, I began to ask

> John about other possible dates and with his expert assistance as a

> first rate historian, he identified other events that had an

> important place in the process that could be described as the

> countries founding. The events are by now well known to us, from

the

> approval of the text of the Declaration of Independence on 2 July

> 1776 to the ceremonial signing on 2 August 1776 to state by state

> votes to the formal ratification of the Articles of Confederation

on

> 1 March 1781 and beyond.

>

> Very importantly, John TWB also showed historical records to prove

> that the formal ratification of the Articles of Confederation on

Mar

> 1, 1781 could not have taken place at 3:20 PM, the time suggested

by

> Mr. Grimes resulting in the 21° Cancer ascendant he had intuitively

> arrived at. The historical records showed the event had occurred

> before noon on that day. This information was a major blow to the

> historical credibility of this chart. Due to the strength of this

> degree and its success in explaining past events, I felt a need to

> remove any doubt about it, in a scientific manner. I therefore made

> additional predictions based on the Mar 1 chart in the autumn of

> 2006. However, these predictions did not really pan out. My

> confidence in the Mar 1 chart then began to seriously wane.

>

> However, there was no reason to give up. In August 2006, I asked

John

> if he would explore other such events for me to test astrologically

> with analysis and predictions. Each time he came up with a date,

time

> and place, I explored and made predictions against it. Often, the

> charts did not ring true, but I wanted to avoid having a bias of

> perception or intuition, so I let the predictions rule the roost.

The

> corner stone of astrology has to be the scientific method. Without

> it, we have no basis for a claim to credibility. The results of

these

> predictions were also not promising.

>

> On the morning of 31 December 2006, an e-mail from John was waiting

> in my inbox. It simply said " Try: February 2, 1781 at 17:05 Hrs in

> Annapolis, Md. John also attached the historical records and

> significance. I cast the chart and was immediately impressed with

> what I saw. The Feb 2 chart was in many respects like the Mar 1

chart

> but without the abundant weaknesses. Importantly, both charts

shared

> the 21° Cancer rising degree, which had made a strong impression.

> Also the nature of Saturn and Jupiter as malefics had made an

> impression, suggesting a Cancer ascendant was appropriate for the

> USA. After all, Cancer is a royal sign, ruled by the Moon, the

queen

> of the planetary cabinet. The Sun is also strong, albeit afflicted,

> signifying the appeal of the USA for investors who pour money into

US

> stocks and bonds. This has also kept the dollar stronger than it

> should be. The affliction to the Sun probably explains the

volatility

> of the dollar in the past, in addition to the difficulties to US

> Presidents (assassinations, attempted assassinations, impeachments

> and resignations under pressure, difficult decisions, etc). The

> importance of the USA for the international financial system is

> clearly explained by the charts overall strength and placement of

the

> royal planets, Sun and Moon. In the Feb 2 chart the Moon is exalted

> and strong and aspected by Mars, the lord of physical prowess. It

is

> also aspected but not harmed by Jupiter as lord of conflict. Hence,

> the US tends to have strong views, which it can back up with might

if

> need be and other country's ignore its power at their own peril.

The

> Sun as lord of status and wealth in H7 shows the importance of

> foreign engagement, but also as it aspects H1 of self and fame,

gives

> preeminent status to the country. Fortunately, the involvement of

the

> USA in the world has on balance been positive - to promote

universal

> adoption of the principles of civic freedom, private property, rule

> of law and free trade - despite recurrent difficulties associated

> with foreign wars. Prime examples of the difficulties are the wars

in

> Vietnam and Iraq.

>

> The further I tested this chart against key historical events, the

> more hopeful I became that it might be the real deal - that

the 'holy

> grail' of mundane astrology had at long last been uncovered. The

work

> on the assassinations of US President, involving the notable

> affliction of the Sun in the chart by the lord of death, further

> drove home the point. By comparison, this element was not so strong

> in the Mar 1 chart.

>

> The analysis by of the salient aspects of this

> chart is further boosting the confidence. I suspect he is most

> pleased with it, as I am, as it comes close to confirm his initial

> support for the Mar 1 chart, while confirming his reasons for

> supporting that chart in a more convincing way. As such, his

initial

> thoughts on the Mar 1 chart were influential in making the Feb 2

> chart a reality. That said, as with all the past efforts, we must

> wait for the coming months to reveal if the chart has power to

> predict. If so, it will be a new day for mundane astrology, to at

> last have an authentic chart for the USA, the world's most powerful

> country. The relief would be palpable, after so much effort and so

> many false starts.

>

> has been the lighthouse for our work on SAMVA -

> the Systems' Approach to Mundane Vedic Astrology. His introduction

of

> the System's Approach removed immense confusion that had developed

> around the ancient science of Vedic astrology. He has been untiring

> in offering us his expert guidance and mentoring all along the way.

> His work has also served as the main inspiration. If it were not

for

> the efficacy of SA in the horoscopes of individuals, this effort to

> apply SA in the mundane sphere would never have received so much

> effort. We have been diligently applying this knowledge in the area

> of mundane Vedic astrology to discover authentic charts for

> countries. Much progress has been made. I am also pleased that I

have

> had a hand in confirming the authenticity of a number of other

charts

> in the past.

>

> In honor of , with confidence that this chart for

> the USA is authentic and in recognition of this entire and

> interrelated work, not only by John TWB and myself, who searched

for

> and identified this event and proposed it on SAMVA on 31 December

> 2006, but by the many important contributions by Jorge Angelino,

> David Hawthorne, Nicholas Francis, Neville Lange, Sateesh Batas,

Vyas

> Munidas and others concerning a chart for the USA on SAMVA, I

propose

> this chart from here on out be referred to as

>

> the SAMVA chart for the USA.

>

> Maryland becomes the 13th and final state to ratify the Articles of

> Confederation of the United States of America

> 17:05 hrs (5:06 LMT)

> 2 February 1781

> Annapolis, Md, USA (76W30, 38N59)

> 20° 59' Cancer ascendant

>

> Best wishes,

>

> C

>

> SAMVA , " Vyas Munidas " <munidas@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Professor,

> >

> > May I also add to your insightful points, the strength of Mars in

> this

> > chart, ruling martial strength, is significant for the most

> powerful

> > military complex on the planet - this is a very key area in any

> proposed USA

> > chart. Close Ma-Mo aspect also indicates a very strong fighting

> spirit and

> > courage in abundance. Additionally, the wide Ra-Ve aspect which

> would be

> > operating for several hundred years now, explains without

stretch,

> the

> > rampant open sexuality and many perversions present.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Vyas Munidas

> >

> > -

> > <siha@>

> > <SAMVA >

> > Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:04 AM

> > Re: Re: Transit influences in USA chart

> >

> > > Hello my dear Thor,

> > >

> > > The interesting thing about this chart is that besides the

transit

> > > influences for verification of the significant events, the

chart

> itself

> > > shows that it can belong to a country like US. The lord of the

> house of

> > > status closely influencing the asdt from the seventh house

shows

> its

> > > commanding position in the international affairs. The lord of

> the tenth

> > > house in the fifth house shows its commanding position in the

> intellectual

> > > properties in the world. The strong placement of the lord of

the

> asdt in

> > > the eleventh house shows its financial strength. The influence

> of lord of

> > > sixth house on the lord of the asdt shows its assertive

attitude

> including

> > > use of force in international affairs. The placement of Venus

in

> the sixth

> > > house shows the conflicts raised by its assertive attitude and

it

> also

> > > shows

> > > problems in domestic peace felt by its citizens. The close

> influence of

> > > Saturn on the Sun shows setbacks in the matter of wealth of the

> nation and

> > > the number of assassination made on the life of the heads of

> state. The

> > > lord

> > > of the third in the seventh house shows its important

> intervention in

> > > foreign policy around the world.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > >

> > > -

> > > " cosmologer " <cosmologer@>

> > > <SAMVA >

> > > Saturday, January 06, 2007 4:08 PM

> > > Re: Transit influences in USA chart

> > >

> > > Dear ,

> > >

> > > Thank you very much for considering and sharing with us how the

> > > transit impacts in the 21° Cancer rising chart for 2 February

1781

> > > are likely to manifest.

> > >

> > > The prediction offers an excellent guidepost for monitoring the

> > > developments in coming months in order to verify the

authenticity

> of

> > > the chart.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > >

> > > C

> > >

> > > SAMVA , <siha@> wrote:

> > >>

> > >> Hello dear list members,

> > >>

> > >> In the recently proposed US chart for the 2nd February, 1781,

> 1705

> > > hours,

> > >> the transit influences show severe afflictions during middle

of

> > > March,

> > >> 2007, to early May, 2007, indicating lot of controversies,

> > > emotional

> > >> involvement of the people in controvercial issues,

> financial/market

> > >> setbacks, fatal/serious accidents, weather

vagaries/disturbances,

> > > setbacks

> > >> in war fields, etc.

> > >>

> > >> Best wishes,

> > >>

> > >

January 7, 2007

Dear Shayne,

You are welcome.

In my message on 31 December 2006 I explained both the Lincoln and

Kennedy assasinations in terms of this chart. The strong transit

affliction of the natal Sun during the Kennedy assassination is

indeed very interesting. The assassination of Lincoln came at a time

when the nation was exhausted from the Civil War. In one way, Abraham

Lincoln may be viewed as the last casualty of that horrendous

conflict. Thanks for contributing the Lunar landing. Glad to know it

also conforms to this chart. We will look forward to an early

confirmation of this chart. If the past is prolouge, there should be

little doubt about what lies ahead. Most importantly, the logic of

this chart is really convincing, at least for an old soldier like me

who has been marching towards the promised land (of an authentic

chart for the USA) longer than I care to remember.

Best wishes,

C

SAMVA , " Shayn Smith " <mactunesmith wrote:

>

> Dear Cosmologer,

> I was fascinated by your analyses of the presidential

assassinations

> relative to the newly proposed Articles of Confederation chart of

the

> USA. At first I was concerned that in at least two cases,

> presidential assassinations took place in strong benefic subperiods

> (Garfield-Moon and Kennedy-Sun) but I think the Professor has

> clarified that transit impacts supercede trend results of the sub-

> period lord.

>

> Look at the assassination of President John F. Kennedy (Nov. 22,

> 1963) and notice how tr. MMP Saturn makes an exact conjunction on

the

> natal Sun (leadership)in addition to the houses afflicted such as

> that of the people (1st). Likewise, tr. Jupiter throws an

affliction

> to the 1st and other houses. Indeed, I remember it to be a very

> sorrowful time.

>

> Looking at the happy side of this chart, America's first lunar

> landing took place on July 20, 1969 when tr. strong Venus aspected

> 11H & 5H and tr. strong Ma aspected itself and n. Moon. Emotions

were

> jubilent (5th house, Moon) as we courageously (Mars) achieved our

> goals (11th house).

>

> Thank you for this opportunity to test a new chart. I'm curious to

> see how it fares in the future.

>

> Warm regards,

> Shayn

>

> SAMVA , " cosmologer " <cosmologer@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear list members,

> >

> > Let me begin by thanking for his important

> > assessment of the newly proposed 21° Cancer rising chart for the

> USA.

> > The chart is based on Maryland becoming the 13th and final state

to

> > approve the Articles of Confederation in Annapolis, Maryland at

> 17:05

> > hrs on February 2, 1781.

> >

> > In 1777, the Continental Congress adopted the thirteen stars and

> > stripes as the flag of the independent states acting in

> combination.

> > The " Articles of Confederation " were drafted, but did not come

into

> > operation until 1781 - when Maryland agreed to ratify them.

> > (http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/America.htm)

> >

> > The ratification of the Articles of Confederation by Maryland was

> > thus a long awaited event that signaled the effective beginning

of

> > the United States of America as a federal entity.

> >

> > But let´s back up a bit and for the benefit of list members and

> > recount the interesting but arduous and long story behind the

> > discovery of this chart on the SA lists. For fairness sake I take

> the

> > time to acknowledge the main contributors. Of course, such a

review

> > is based on my personal perspective and memory. The discovery of

> > this chart builds on a continuing investigation by a few list

> members

> > with the expert guidance of since 1998. The

> > discussion began on SATVA in 1998 and continued on SAMVA.

> >

> > [side note: SAMVA was founded based on an auspicious time given

by

> > on November 28, 2000 at 23:30 in Paris. The

> chart

> > for SAMVA has 5° 26' Leo rising and L1 Sun at 13° Scorpio in H4

in

> > mutual aspect with L5 Jupiter at 12° Taurus H10. Moreover, L3

Venus

> > is at 26° Sagittarius H5. The Ve/Ju period is running in this

> chart.]

> >

> > A salient effort on the SA lists, in addition to learning and

> > applying SA at the personal level, has been to discover an

> authentic

> > mundane chart for countries of interest, not least the important

> > USA. There have been countless charts explored and made

predictions

> > against over almost a decade. For each prediction the time has

> passed

> > and some chart has either continued to be watched or fallen by

the

> > way side.

> >

> > It is important to note that the 21° Cancer rising chart on Feb 2

> > 1781 owes to the prior work done by Mr. Ron Grimes on the March 1

> > 1781 chart. Notably, Mr. Grimes identified the 21st degree of a

> > Cancer rising chart through intuition. Importantly, Mr. Grimes

was

> > quite emphatic about the importance of the Articles of

> Confederation

> > as a corner stone in the founding of the US as a federal entity.

He

> > focused on the formal ratification that took place in

Philadelphia,

> > Pennsylvania on March 1, 1781. also found

> > something to like in this chart, including the aspect of L6

Jupiter

> > in H5 to L1 Moon in H11. This, he said, explained the 'war like'

> > nature of the USA and involvement in many wars on foreign soil.

The

> > presence of L10 Mars in Scorpio and H5 he found to explain the

> income

> > the US receives from the rest of the world from the sale of

> software

> > and entertainment.

> >

> > After this chart was introduced on SATVA, there were two list

> > members, myself and Mr. Nicholas Francis, who felt the chart was

> > overall too weak to represent such a powerful country. The natal

> > placements were not convincing in terms of the strength of the

USA.

> > suggested the L2 Sun on H8 MEP could explain

> > the " power status " of the country. The chart was mainly defended

by

> > Mr. Grimes on the basis of the numerous social problems affecting

> > disadvantaged groups. The debate with Mr. Grimes over the merits

of

> > his proposed chart had taken a toll. He found no basis for the

> > critiques of his chart. His emphatic attitude resulted in him

> leaving

> > the SA lists in the summer of 2000.

> >

> > In 2000, I developed a 16° Libra rising chart for 4 July 1776,

> which

> > was later revised to 20° Libra rising, due to the evident

> importance

> > of the 20° - 21° for the destiny of the USA. David Hawthorne also

> > proposed a Scorpio rising chart on this date, based on some

> > historical information. The Libra rising chart was appealing

> because

> > it showed the strength and idealism of the country. However, it

did

> > not predict well when the 9/11 event rolled around. The Mar 1

chart

> > was a clear winner in terms of the affliction of transit L8

Saturn

> at

> > 20° Taurus H11 to natal L2 Sun at 20° Aquarius H8. L6 Jupiter at

> 17°

> > Gemini was in supporting role. These transit to natal aspects

made

> a

> > compelling case for this chart. Privately,

> advised

> > me that the choice between the two charts was clear. I saw the

> logic

> > of his advice and dropped the 20° Libra chart on SAMVA and

> accepted

> > 21° Cancer rising chart based on Mar 1 1781.

> >

> > What seemed to cement the case for the Mar 1 chart was a

prediction

> > made by Mr. Neville Lange on SAMVA in late September 2001 that

the

> US

> > military might launch an attack on the Taliban regime in

> Afghanistan

> > at the exactly specified time of 12:30 on 7 October 2001. The

> > prediction of Mr. Lange was crucially based on the 21st degree of

> the

> > Cancer rising chart. The attacks commenced at 12:15 on 7 October!

> By

> > that time, it had become abundantly clear that the Mar 1 chart

had

> > something going for it, overwhelming the earlier misgivings.

> >

> > Jorge Angelino entered SAMVA in 2003 and soon began make his

> positive

> > presence felt on the list. Due to professional reasons in late

> 2004,

> > I asked him to take over as moderator of SAMVA. He did so and has

> > continued with the list in a sterling manner. Based on a

technique

> > learned prior to coming to SA, he embarked on a quest to

> > systematically rectify charts for all countries in the world.

> >

> > In the summer of 2004 Jorge identified 2 July 1776 as the likely

> date

> > for the birth of the USA and came out with a Virgo rising chart.

I

> > thought his contribution was interesting, and after commenting on

> the

> > Virgo rising chart on 2 July 1776 of Jorge Angelino on another

list

> > on 19 September 2004, I received a mail from John TWB on 2

November

> > 2004, where he offered further historical information concerning

> the

> > time the vote was taken on 2 July 1776. I passed the information

on

> > to Jorge and the collaboration with John began on SAMVA. Jorge

then

> > moved to a 16° Scorpio rising chart for the USA on that day.

> > Despite my admiration for Jorge's analysis, I was not satisfied

> with

> > this particular chart. It didn't give me a sense of a right fit.

> >

> > My interest therefore increasingly turned to other alternatives,

> > based on the postings of John TWB. His contributions became an

> > exhilarating journey whereby he offered the list members an up

> close

> > glimpse of the US historical past through the letters and

official

> > records at the time the country was being founded. Given his

> profound

> > knowledge of and access to historical information, I began to ask

> > John about other possible dates and with his expert assistance as

a

> > first rate historian, he identified other events that had an

> > important place in the process that could be described as the

> > countries founding. The events are by now well known to us, from

> the

> > approval of the text of the Declaration of Independence on 2 July

> > 1776 to the ceremonial signing on 2 August 1776 to state by state

> > votes to the formal ratification of the Articles of Confederation

> on

> > 1 March 1781 and beyond.

> >

> > Very importantly, John TWB also showed historical records to

prove

> > that the formal ratification of the Articles of Confederation on

> Mar

> > 1, 1781 could not have taken place at 3:20 PM, the time suggested

> by

> > Mr. Grimes resulting in the 21° Cancer ascendant he had

intuitively

> > arrived at. The historical records showed the event had occurred

> > before noon on that day. This information was a major blow to the

> > historical credibility of this chart. Due to the strength of this

> > degree and its success in explaining past events, I felt a need

to

> > remove any doubt about it, in a scientific manner. I therefore

made

> > additional predictions based on the Mar 1 chart in the autumn of

> > 2006. However, these predictions did not really pan out. My

> > confidence in the Mar 1 chart then began to seriously wane.

> >

> > However, there was no reason to give up. In August 2006, I asked

> John

> > if he would explore other such events for me to test

astrologically

> > with analysis and predictions. Each time he came up with a date,

> time

> > and place, I explored and made predictions against it. Often, the

> > charts did not ring true, but I wanted to avoid having a bias of

> > perception or intuition, so I let the predictions rule the roost.

> The

> > corner stone of astrology has to be the scientific method.

Without

> > it, we have no basis for a claim to credibility. The results of

> these

> > predictions were also not promising.

> >

> > On the morning of 31 December 2006, an e-mail from John was

waiting

> > in my inbox. It simply said " Try: February 2, 1781 at 17:05 Hrs

in

> > Annapolis, Md. John also attached the historical records and

> > significance. I cast the chart and was immediately impressed with

> > what I saw. The Feb 2 chart was in many respects like the Mar 1

> chart

> > but without the abundant weaknesses. Importantly, both charts

> shared

> > the 21° Cancer rising degree, which had made a strong impression.

> > Also the nature of Saturn and Jupiter as malefics had made an

> > impression, suggesting a Cancer ascendant was appropriate for the

> > USA. After all, Cancer is a royal sign, ruled by the Moon, the

> queen

> > of the planetary cabinet. The Sun is also strong, albeit

afflicted,

> > signifying the appeal of the USA for investors who pour money

into

> US

> > stocks and bonds. This has also kept the dollar stronger than it

> > should be. The affliction to the Sun probably explains the

> volatility

> > of the dollar in the past, in addition to the difficulties to US

> > Presidents (assassinations, attempted assassinations,

impeachments

> > and resignations under pressure, difficult decisions, etc). The

> > importance of the USA for the international financial system is

> > clearly explained by the charts overall strength and placement of

> the

> > royal planets, Sun and Moon. In the Feb 2 chart the Moon is

exalted

> > and strong and aspected by Mars, the lord of physical prowess. It

> is

> > also aspected but not harmed by Jupiter as lord of conflict.

Hence,

> > the US tends to have strong views, which it can back up with

might

> if

> > need be and other country's ignore its power at their own peril.

> The

> > Sun as lord of status and wealth in H7 shows the importance of

> > foreign engagement, but also as it aspects H1 of self and fame,

> gives

> > preeminent status to the country. Fortunately, the involvement of

> the

> > USA in the world has on balance been positive - to promote

> universal

> > adoption of the principles of civic freedom, private property,

rule

> > of law and free trade - despite recurrent difficulties associated

> > with foreign wars. Prime examples of the difficulties are the

wars

> in

> > Vietnam and Iraq.

> >

> > The further I tested this chart against key historical events,

the

> > more hopeful I became that it might be the real deal - that

> the 'holy

> > grail' of mundane astrology had at long last been uncovered. The

> work

> > on the assassinations of US President, involving the notable

> > affliction of the Sun in the chart by the lord of death, further

> > drove home the point. By comparison, this element was not so

strong

> > in the Mar 1 chart.

> >

> > The analysis by of the salient aspects of this

> > chart is further boosting the confidence. I suspect he is most

> > pleased with it, as I am, as it comes close to confirm his

initial

> > support for the Mar 1 chart, while confirming his reasons for

> > supporting that chart in a more convincing way. As such, his

> initial

> > thoughts on the Mar 1 chart were influential in making the Feb 2

> > chart a reality. That said, as with all the past efforts, we must

> > wait for the coming months to reveal if the chart has power to

> > predict. If so, it will be a new day for mundane astrology, to at

> > last have an authentic chart for the USA, the world's most

powerful

> > country. The relief would be palpable, after so much effort and

so

> > many false starts.

> >

> > has been the lighthouse for our work on SAMVA -

> > the Systems' Approach to Mundane Vedic Astrology. His

introduction

> of

> > the System's Approach removed immense confusion that had

developed

> > around the ancient science of Vedic astrology. He has been

untiring

> > in offering us his expert guidance and mentoring all along the

way.

> > His work has also served as the main inspiration. If it were not

> for

> > the efficacy of SA in the horoscopes of individuals, this effort

to

> > apply SA in the mundane sphere would never have received so much

> > effort. We have been diligently applying this knowledge in the

area

> > of mundane Vedic astrology to discover authentic charts for

> > countries. Much progress has been made. I am also pleased that I

> have

> > had a hand in confirming the authenticity of a number of other

> charts

> > in the past.

> >

> > In honor of , with confidence that this chart

for

> > the USA is authentic and in recognition of this entire and

> > interrelated work, not only by John TWB and myself, who searched

> for

> > and identified this event and proposed it on SAMVA on 31 December

> > 2006, but by the many important contributions by Jorge Angelino,

> > David Hawthorne, Nicholas Francis, Neville Lange, Sateesh Batas,

> Vyas

> > Munidas and others concerning a chart for the USA on SAMVA, I

> propose

> > this chart from here on out be referred to as

> >

> > the SAMVA chart for the USA.

> >

> > Maryland becomes the 13th and final state to ratify the Articles

of

> > Confederation of the United States of America

> > 17:05 hrs (5:06 LMT)

> > 2 February 1781

> > Annapolis, Md, USA (76W30, 38N59)

> > 20° 59' Cancer ascendant

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> > C

> >

> > SAMVA , " Vyas Munidas " <munidas@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Professor,

> > >

> > > May I also add to your insightful points, the strength of Mars

in

> > this

> > > chart, ruling martial strength, is significant for the most

> > powerful

> > > military complex on the planet - this is a very key area in any

> > proposed USA

> > > chart. Close Ma-Mo aspect also indicates a very strong fighting

> > spirit and

> > > courage in abundance. Additionally, the wide Ra-Ve aspect which

> > would be

> > > operating for several hundred years now, explains without

> stretch,

> > the

> > > rampant open sexuality and many perversions present.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > >

> > > Vyas Munidas

> > >

> > > -

> > > <siha@>

> > > <SAMVA >

> > > Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:04 AM

> > > Re: Re: Transit influences in USA chart

> > >

> > > > Hello my dear Thor,

> > > >

> > > > The interesting thing about this chart is that besides the

> transit

> > > > influences for verification of the significant events, the

> chart

> > itself

> > > > shows that it can belong to a country like US. The lord of

the

> > house of

> > > > status closely influencing the asdt from the seventh house

> shows

> > its

> > > > commanding position in the international affairs. The lord

of

> > the tenth

> > > > house in the fifth house shows its commanding position in the

> > intellectual

> > > > properties in the world. The strong placement of the lord of

> the

> > asdt in

> > > > the eleventh house shows its financial strength. The

influence

> > of lord of

> > > > sixth house on the lord of the asdt shows its assertive

> attitude

> > including

> > > > use of force in international affairs. The placement of Venus

> in

> > the sixth

> > > > house shows the conflicts raised by its assertive attitude

and

> it

> > also

> > > > shows

> > > > problems in domestic peace felt by its citizens. The close

> > influence of

> > > > Saturn on the Sun shows setbacks in the matter of wealth of

the

> > nation and

> > > > the number of assassination made on the life of the heads of

> > state. The

> > > > lord

> > > > of the third in the seventh house shows its important

> > intervention in

> > > > foreign policy around the world.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > >

> > > > -

> > > > " cosmologer " <cosmologer@>

> > > > <SAMVA >

> > > > Saturday, January 06, 2007 4:08 PM

> > > > Re: Transit influences in USA chart

> > > >

> > > > Dear ,

> > > >

> > > > Thank you very much for considering and sharing with us how

the

> > > > transit impacts in the 21° Cancer rising chart for 2 February

> 1781

> > > > are likely to manifest.

> > > >

> > > > The prediction offers an excellent guidepost for monitoring

the

> > > > developments in coming months in order to verify the

> authenticity

> > of

> > > > the chart.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > >

> > > > C

> > > >

> > > > SAMVA , <siha@> wrote:

> > > >>

> > > >> Hello dear list members,

> > > >>

> > > >> In the recently proposed US chart for the 2nd February,

1781,

> > 1705

> > > > hours,

> > > >> the transit influences show severe afflictions during

middle

> of

> > > > March,

> > > >> 2007, to early May, 2007, indicating lot of controversies,

> > > > emotional

> > > >> involvement of the people in controvercial issues,

> > financial/market

> > > >> setbacks, fatal/serious accidents, weather

> vagaries/disturbances,

> > > > setbacks

> > > >> in war fields, etc.

> > > >>

> > > >> Best wishes,

> > > >>

> > > >

January 7, 2007

Dear C.

Congratulations for your excellent work!

Thank you for your kind words. I joined the SAMVA list on October 3, 2001. All

the inspiration for my rectification work on Mundane Astrology came from you in

first place, after my first try to rectify the chart of my country, Portugal, in

June 2004. I am indebted for that, and for the trust that you and our dear

Professor have demonstrated inviting me to moderate your list. I feel happy for

your happiness. Let us see how it works on predictions...

So let us keep these two charts for US for the time being:

1) the SAMVA chart for the USA;

2) the US rectified chart.

Cheers,

Jorge

SAMVA [sAMVA ] On Behalf Of

cosmologer

domingo, 7 de Janeiro de 2007 14:24

SAMVA

The SAMVA chart for the USA

Dear list members,

Let me begin by thanking for his important

assessment of the newly proposed 21Â° Cancer rising chart for the USA.

The chart is based on Maryland becoming the 13th and final state to

approve the Articles of Confederation in Annapolis, Maryland at 17:05

hrs on February 2, 1781.

In 1777, the Continental Congress adopted the thirteen stars and

stripes as the flag of the independent states acting in combination.

The " Articles of Confederation " were drafted, but did not come into

operation until 1781 - when Maryland agreed to ratify them.

(http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/America.htm)

The ratification of the Articles of Confederation by Maryland was

thus a long awaited event that signaled the effective beginning of

the United States of America as a federal entity.

But letÂ´s back up a bit and for the benefit of list members and

recount the interesting but arduous and long story behind the

discovery of this chart on the SA lists. For fairness sake I take the

time to acknowledge the main contributors. Of course, such a review

is based on my personal perspective and memory. The discovery of

this chart builds on a continuing investigation by a few list members

with the expert guidance of since 1998. The

discussion began on SATVA in 1998 and continued on SAMVA.

[side note: SAMVA was founded based on an auspicious time given by

on November 28, 2000 at 23:30 in Paris. The chart

for SAMVA has 5Â° 26' Leo rising and L1 Sun at 13Â° Scorpio in H4 in

mutual aspect with L5 Jupiter at 12Â° Taurus H10. Moreover, L3 Venus

is at 26Â° Sagittarius H5. The Ve/Ju period is running in this chart.]

A salient effort on the SA lists, in addition to learning and

applying SA at the personal level, has been to discover an authentic

mundane chart for countries of interest, not least the important

USA. There have been countless charts explored and made predictions

against over almost a decade. For each prediction the time has passed

and some chart has either continued to be watched or fallen by the

way side.

It is important to note that the 21Â° Cancer rising chart on Feb 2

1781 owes to the prior work done by Mr. Ron Grimes on the March 1

1781 chart. Notably, Mr. Grimes identified the 21st degree of a

Cancer rising chart through intuition. Importantly, Mr. Grimes was

quite emphatic about the importance of the Articles of Confederation

as a corner stone in the founding of the US as a federal entity. He

focused on the formal ratification that took place in Philadelphia,

Pennsylvania on March 1, 1781. also found

something to like in this chart, including the aspect of L6 Jupiter

in H5 to L1 Moon in H11. This, he said, explained the 'war like'

nature of the USA and involvement in many wars on foreign soil. The

presence of L10 Mars in Scorpio and H5 he found to explain the income

the US receives from the rest of the world from the sale of software

and entertainment.

After this chart was introduced on SATVA, there were two list

members, myself and Mr. Nicholas Francis, who felt the chart was

overall too weak to represent such a powerful country. The natal

placements were not convincing in terms of the strength of the USA.

suggested the L2 Sun on H8 MEP could explain

the " power status " of the country. The chart was mainly defended by

Mr. Grimes on the basis of the numerous social problems affecting

disadvantaged groups. The debate with Mr. Grimes over the merits of

his proposed chart had taken a toll. He found no basis for the

critiques of his chart. His emphatic attitude resulted in him leaving

the SA lists in the summer of 2000.

In 2000, I developed a 16Â° Libra rising chart for 4 July 1776, which

was later revised to 20Â° Libra rising, due to the evident importance

of the 20Â° - 21Â° for the destiny of the USA. David Hawthorne also

proposed a Scorpio rising chart on this date, based on some

historical information. The Libra rising chart was appealing because

it showed the strength and idealism of the country. However, it did

not predict well when the 9/11 event rolled around. The Mar 1 chart

was a clear winner in terms of the affliction of transit L8 Saturn at

20Â° Taurus H11 to natal L2 Sun at 20Â° Aquarius H8. L6 Jupiter at 17Â°

Gemini was in supporting role. These transit to natal aspects made a

compelling case for this chart. Privately, advised

me that the choice between the two charts was clear. I saw the logic

of his advice and dropped the 20Â° Libra chart on SAMVA and accepted

21Â° Cancer rising chart based on Mar 1 1781.