Guest guest Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Dear friends, John TWB has informed me that there is historical evidence to suggest the chart for Israel should be based on the midnight hour on May 15, 1948. Maybe he will find time to tell us more. Given the importance of the state of Israel for peace in the Middle East, I cover the basic issues, also as we have formerly considered the midnight chart based on the expiry of the British Mandate for Palestine, which was to take place at that time. If I understood John correctly, he has evidence to show that the Jewish leaders had initially planned to have the founding of their state coincide with the time of the end of the Mandate. It was purportedly only some days before that they decided to move up the time of the declaration to 4 PM on the same day (May 14). Wikipedia describes these historical events thus: "In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews. The newly-created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city – a corpus separatum – administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status. The Jewish community accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it. Regardless, the State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, one day before the expiry of the British Mandate for Palestine." So it is clear, something did happen at the midnight hour on that day. The British withdrew, leaving the Arabs and the Jews to settle the matters. This time was therefore clearly important not only for the British but also the Israelis, even if the actual announcement of the Israelis unambigously took place earlier in the day. In any event, this prompted me to look at the evidence for the midnight chart more carefully and report my findings to you. The 20° 56' Capricorn chart for Israel is interesting for the fact that the nodes, Rahu and Ketu, are placed at 20° 53' Aries H4 and Libra H10, respectively. This means that these houses and H2, H6, H8 and H12 are all severly afflicted. The weakness of H4, H8 and H10 is noticeable, given the bad placement of L4 Mars in H8 under close aspect of L12 Jupiter in H12, L10 Venus in H6 and the infancy of Sun in H5. The affliction involving L4 and H4 make the social tranquility and issue of housing vulnerable to being disrupted time and again with events that would be characterised as obstacles and endings, as well as losses, due to the impact of Jupiter as L12 to Mars in H8. With L10 Venus located in H6, with that house afflicted by Ketu, sudden events bring about strife. Moreover, the close affliction by the nodes to the houses suggests the grave problems regarding the house indications involved would be apparent immediately at the birth of the country. Indeed, the events that followed the creation of the State of Israel are described thus: "Not long after (May 15, 1948), five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq – attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. After almost a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were instituted. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip." We know that many wars have been fought since and that skirmishes are daily bread for Israeli citizens. The adamant position of the Israelis is seen in the location of L10 in H6 and the affliction of Ketu to that house MEP. Indeed, their policy of an "eye for an eye" is a form of brute justice, reflecting perhaps their weak Sun, ruler of soul and wisdom, being natally weak. However, Jupiter is in ok strength, and it transmits a divine impulse to Mars, as L4. Hence, the constant disturbances of daily live and losses would be expected to impel the people to seek higher meaning. The chart has L2 Saturn at 23° 17' Cancer H7, along with L7 Moon at 15° 57' Cancer. As both are in H7 MEP, the influence and prestige of Israel is growing with time. However, the influence of Saturn would become more apparent after over 100 years from the states founding, or around 2065 AD. The influence of the Moon could become more apparent around 2200 AD. L9 Mercury at 17° 49' Taurus H5, favourably influences H11. This means that the State of Israel is blessed with good friends, which include the powerful USA and many western countries. The chart thus suggests this auspicious influence would be expected to manifest in full around 2100 AD. This suggests the best years are ahead for the state of Israel, albeit far into the future for the present generations. Some interesting insights into the chart. Both the Six Day War June 5-12, 1967 and the Yom Kippur War Oct. 6, 1973 took place in the sub-period of L10 Venus. In both incidents, transit L8 Sun was on house MEPs. Both peace agreements, the Camp David Accod on Sept. 17, 1978 and the Oslo Accord on Sept 13, 1993, took place in the sub-period of L7 Moon. These facts suggest the chart deserves careful study. Of course, a lot of historical and predictive work is required to settle the matter if this chart works from an astrological (SA) point of view or not. At least, it is interesting to have further information suggesting this time deserves special attention. Best wishes, Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Dear Thor and SAMVA group members: The history of the founding of the State of Israel is not at all straight forward in the tracing. So I limit my remarks here, in reply to Thor's earlier post, by highlighting important national dates and their significance. By way of preface I should point out that the official founding of the State of Israel in May 1948 preceded the establishment of the Israeli Government by nine months. On Monday, 14 February 1949, the Israeli Knesset was first convened at 16:00 hrs, in the Jewish Agency Building in Jerusalem. Just three months later, on 11 May 1949 Israel was admitted to the United Nations as the world body's 59th member, by a vote of 37-12. The capital was moved to Tel Aviv. The location of the opening of the Knesset in Jerusalem's Jewish Agency Building has a special significance. The Jewish Agency of Palestine had been the de-facto State of Zionist Palestine since the agency's formation at Zurich, Switzerland, on Sunday, 11 August 1929, at 14:00 hrs. As Thor has pointed out, the Zionists' aim to establish a Jewish State in Palestine was at last achieved in the United Nations thru Resolution 181, when it was so voted at 17:35 hrs on Saturday, 29 November 1947, in the General Assembly sitting at Lake Success, New York. In Palestine the Zionists had been waiting days for this moment of decision. Good news travels fast. It was Sunday at 00:35 hrs in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv when the UN finally voted. Within the hour there was reported dancing in the streets. In the minds of many wellwishers of Zionism that historic night, a Palestine for the Jewish people was born at long last. So too, it didn't escape the attention of local astrologers that at the time moment of decision Rahu was retrograde @ 00ta18 in 10H (Jerusalem), in partile conjunction to the 1929 Jewish Agency's natal Descendant, 00ta56. A week later, on Monday 8 December 1947, the United Kingdom's delegation to the United Nations informed the Assembly that pursuant to Resolution 181 the governing Mandate over Palestine would be terminated on 15 May 1948. In 1948, according to the Hebrew calendar with the start of the month of Nissan, the new year fell on the New Moon of 9 April, during a Friday afternoon, just hours before the start of the Jewish Sabbath. Following from the day after the Sabbath, executives of the Jewish Agency and Va'ad Leumi met on 11 and 12 April to formally establish the national body-politic. At the final hour of two days of meetings [17:00/18:00] the body-politic of modern Israel was founded at Tel Aviv as the NATIONAL PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, under the auspices of the National Committee (Va-ad Leumi) and the Jewish Agency for Israel - the governing Zionist organizations in Palestine and abroad. As the duly instituted body politic of the Jewish people of modern Israel, the COUNCIL set to work over the following four weeks to prepare the organization of the State of Israel, in anticipation of the birth moment triggered by the termination of the Mandate, at 00:00 hrs, Tel Aviv, 15 May 1948, in the 26th year of the U.K.'s governing administration of Palestine, which Mandate began with a commencement ceremony held in Jerusalem on 11 September 1922; on the very same day that the U.S.Congress adopted a joint resolution in support of the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917. As the termination of the Mandate drew near the COUNCIL decided to prepare a formal Declaration of Independence to inaugurate the midnight hand-over. However, as it was recognized that this historic midnight event in Tel Aviv fell on the Jewish Sabbath [sunset Friday 14 May until sunset 15 May], the declaration ceremony was scheduled for 16:00 hrs on the 14th, thus allowing the participants sufficient time following the ceremony to reach home by sunset. The ceremony started promptly at 16:00 hrs, when David Ben Gurion declaimed the Declaration to a select, standing-room only, audience. Then 25 executives of the 37-member COUNCIL signed the Declaration, the 25th signature affixed at 16:32 hrs. The remaining 12 executives of the COUNCIL signed the Declaration variously over the next two months. Understandably, the necessity of proclaiming the intended midnight Declaration at 16:00 hrs that Friday has led observers to accord the TOB of the State of Israel to at least three moments, which are: on 14 May, [1] at 16:00 hrs; and [2] at16:32 hrs; and on 15 May, [3] at 00:00 hrs. In closing I shall only add that at 00:00 hrs on 15 May, Sol was at 00ta51, a gentle reminder of Rahu's position on 29 November 1947, and the Jewish Agency's natal Descendant of 11 August 1929. Whether or not the recurrence of the first degree of Taurus is anything more than the fortuitous concurrence of circumstance, is a matter best left to the competent application of astrological rectification technique. Historians should fear to tread further on this important question of the determination of the actual TOB. Best wishes, JOHNCosmologer <cosmologer wrote: Dear friends, John TWB has informed me that there is historical evidence to suggest the chart for Israel should be based on the midnight hour on May 15, 1948. Maybe he will find time to tell us more. Given the importance of the state of Israel for peace in the Middle East, I cover the basic issues, also as we have formerly considered the midnight chart based on the expiry of the British Mandate for Palestine, which was to take place at that time. If I understood John correctly, he has evidence to show that the Jewish leaders had initially planned to have the founding of their state coincide with the time of the end of the Mandate. It was purportedly only some days before that they decided to move up the time of the declaration to 4 PM on the same day (May 14). Wikipedia describes these historical events thus: "In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews. The newly-created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city – a corpus separatum – administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status. The Jewish community accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it. Regardless, the State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, one day before the expiry of the British Mandate for Palestine." So it is clear, something did happen at the midnight hour on that day. The British withdrew, leaving the Arabs and the Jews to settle the matters. This time was therefore clearly important not only for the British but also the Israelis, even if the actual announcement of the Israelis unambigously took place earlier in the day. In any event, this prompted me to look at the evidence for the midnight chart more carefully and report my findings to you. The 20° 56' Capricorn chart for Israel is interesting for the fact that the nodes, Rahu and Ketu, are placed at 20° 53' Aries H4 and Libra H10, respectively. This means that these houses and H2, H6, H8 and H12 are all severly afflicted. The weakness of H4, H8 and H10 is noticeable, given the bad placement of L4 Mars in H8 under close aspect of L12 Jupiter in H12, L10 Venus in H6 and the infancy of Sun in H5. The affliction involving L4 and H4 make the social tranquility and issue of housing vulnerable to being disrupted time and again with events that would be characterised as obstacles and endings, as well as losses, due to the impact of Jupiter as L12 to Mars in H8. With L10 Venus located in H6, with that house afflicted by Ketu, sudden events bring about strife. Moreover, the close affliction by the nodes to the houses suggests the grave problems regarding the house indications involved would be apparent immediately at the birth of the country. Indeed, the events that followed the creation of the State of Israel are described thus: "Not long after (May 15, 1948), five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq – attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. After almost a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were instituted. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip." We know that many wars have been fought since and that skirmishes are daily bread for Israeli citizens. The adamant position of the Israelis is seen in the location of L10 in H6 and the affliction of Ketu to that house MEP. Indeed, their policy of an "eye for an eye" is a form of brute justice, reflecting perhaps their weak Sun, ruler of soul and wisdom, being natally weak. However, Jupiter is in ok strength, and it transmits a divine impulse to Mars, as L4. Hence, the constant disturbances of daily live and losses would be expected to impel the people to seek higher meaning. The chart has L2 Saturn at 23° 17' Cancer H7, along with L7 Moon at 15° 57' Cancer. As both are in H7 MEP, the influence and prestige of Israel is growing with time. However, the influence of Saturn would become more apparent after over 100 years from the states founding, or around 2065 AD. The influence of the Moon could become more apparent around 2200 AD. L9 Mercury at 17° 49' Taurus H5, favourably influences H11. This means that the State of Israel is blessed with good friends, which include the powerful USA and many western countries. The chart thus suggests this auspicious influence would be expected to manifest in full around 2100 AD. This suggests the best years are ahead for the state of Israel, albeit far into the future for the present generations. Some interesting insights into the chart. Both the Six Day War June 5-12, 1967 and the Yom Kippur War Oct. 6, 1973 took place in the sub-period of L10 Venus. In both incidents, transit L8 Sun was on house MEPs. Both peace agreements, the Camp David Accod on Sept. 17, 1978 and the Oslo Accord on Sept 13, 1993, took place in the sub-period of L7 Moon. These facts suggest the chart deserves careful study. Of course, a lot of historical and predictive work is required to settle the matter if this chart works from an astrological (SA) point of view or not. At least, it is interesting to have further information suggesting this time deserves special attention. Best wishes, Thor & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."--- U.S. President George W. Bush, speaking at a Gridiron Club dinner, Washington, D.C., March 2001 "Time and the Ocean, and some guiding star and High Cabal have made us what we are." U.K. Prime Minister Winston Churchill, 3 October 1941"For nothing is hid that shall not be made manifest, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come to light... take heed then how you hear..." Luke 8:1718 "1913 was the final year of America's golden age: After indoor plumbing, but before the central bank and the income tax."R. J. Rushdoony"Paper is poverty, .... it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1788 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Dear John, Thank you for this magisterial and exhaustive account of the historical facts concerning the birth of the state of Israel. The information is stunning in its precision. It will take astrologers some time to analyse the different candidates and compare charts. However, some work has been done on the potential of the charts based on the times given for May 14 and 15. Predictions based on these are likely to help further in establishing their authenticity. That said, as you point out, earlier times may also warrant study. Your message is definitely one to file for future reference. Best wishes, Thor SAMVA , JohnTWB <blazingstar1776 wrote: > > Dear Thor and SAMVA group members: > > The history of the founding of the State of Israel is not at all straight forward in the tracing. So I limit my remarks here, in reply to Thor's earlier post, by highlighting important national dates and their significance. By way of preface I should point out that the official founding of the State of Israel in May 1948 preceded the establishment of the Israeli Government by nine months. On Monday, 14 February 1949, the Israeli Knesset was first convened at 16:00 hrs, in the Jewish Agency Building in Jerusalem. Just three months later, on 11 May 1949 Israel was admitted to the United Nations as the world body's 59th member, by a vote of 37-12. The capital was moved to Tel Aviv. > > The location of the opening of the Knesset in Jerusalem's Jewish Agency Building has a special significance. The Jewish Agency of Palestine had been the de-facto State of Zionist Palestine since the agency's formation at Zurich, Switzerland, on Sunday, 11 August 1929, at 14:00 hrs. > > As Thor has pointed out, the Zionists' aim to establish a Jewish State in Palestine was at last achieved in the United Nations thru Resolution 181, when it was so voted at 17:35 hrs on Saturday, 29 November 1947, in the General Assembly sitting at Lake Success, New York. In Palestine the Zionists had been waiting days for this moment of decision. Good news travels fast. It was Sunday at 00:35 hrs in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv when the UN finally voted. Within the hour there was reported dancing in the streets. In the minds of many wellwishers of Zionism that historic night, a Palestine for the Jewish people was born at long last. So too, it didn't escape the attention of local astrologers that at the time moment of decision Rahu was retrograde @ 00ta18 in 10H (Jerusalem), in partile conjunction to the 1929 Jewish Agency's natal Descendant, 00ta56. > > A week later, on Monday 8 December 1947, the United Kingdom's delegation to the United Nations informed the Assembly that pursuant to Resolution 181 the governing Mandate over Palestine would be terminated on 15 May 1948. > > In 1948, according to the Hebrew calendar with the start of the month of Nissan, the new year fell on the New Moon of 9 April, during a Friday afternoon, just hours before the start of the Jewish Sabbath. Following from the day after the Sabbath, executives of the Jewish Agency and Va'ad Leumi met on 11 and 12 April to formally establish the national body-politic. At the final hour of two days of meetings [17:00/18:00] the body-politic of modern Israel was founded at Tel Aviv as the NATIONAL PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, under the auspices of the National Committee (Va-ad Leumi) and the Jewish Agency for Israel - the governing Zionist organizations in Palestine and abroad. As the duly instituted body politic of the Jewish people of modern Israel, the COUNCIL set to work over the following four weeks to prepare the organization of the State of Israel, in anticipation of the birth moment triggered by the termination of the Mandate, at 00:00 hrs, Tel Aviv, 15 May 1948, in the 26th year > of the U.K.'s governing administration of Palestine, which Mandate began with a commencement ceremony held in Jerusalem on 11 September 1922; on the very same day that the U.S.Congress adopted a joint resolution in support of the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917. > > As the termination of the Mandate drew near the COUNCIL decided to prepare a formal Declaration of Independence to inaugurate the midnight hand-over. However, as it was recognized that this historic midnight event in Tel Aviv fell on the Jewish Sabbath [sunset Friday 14 May until sunset 15 May], the declaration ceremony was scheduled for 16:00 hrs on the 14th, thus allowing the participants sufficient time following the ceremony to reach home by sunset. The ceremony started promptly at 16:00 hrs, when David Ben Gurion declaimed the Declaration to a select, standing-room only, audience. Then 25 executives of the 37-member COUNCIL signed the Declaration, the 25th signature affixed at 16:32 hrs. The remaining 12 executives of the COUNCIL signed the Declaration variously over the next two months. > > Understandably, the necessity of proclaiming the intended midnight Declaration at 16:00 hrs that Friday has led observers to accord the TOB of the State of Israel to at least three moments, which are: on 14 May, [1] at 16:00 hrs; and [2] at16:32 hrs; and on 15 May, [3] at 00:00 hrs. > > In closing I shall only add that at 00:00 hrs on 15 May, Sol was at 00ta51, a gentle reminder of Rahu's position on 29 November 1947, and the Jewish Agency's natal Descendant of 11 August 1929. Whether or not the recurrence of the first degree of Taurus is anything more than the fortuitous concurrence of circumstance, is a matter best left to the competent application of astrological rectification technique. Historians should fear to tread further on this important question of the determination of the actual TOB. > > Best wishes, > > JOHN > > > > Cosmologer <cosmologer wrote: Dear friends, > > John TWB has informed me that there is historical evidence to suggest the chart for Israel should be based on the midnight hour on May 15, 1948. Maybe he will find time to tell us more. Given the importance of the state of Israel for peace in the Middle East, I cover the basic issues, also as we have formerly considered the midnight chart based on the expiry of the British Mandate for Palestine, which was to take place at that time. > > If I understood John correctly, he has evidence to show that the Jewish leaders had initially planned to have the founding of their state coincide with the time of the end of the Mandate. It was purportedly only some days before that they decided to move up the time of the declaration to 4 PM on the same day (May 14). Wikipedia describes these historical events thus: > > " In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews. The newly-created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city – a corpus separatum – administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status. The Jewish community accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it. Regardless, the State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, one day before the expiry of the British Mandate for Palestine. " > > So it is clear, something did happen at the midnight hour on that day. The British withdrew, leaving the Arabs and the Jews to settle the matters. This time was therefore clearly important not only for the British but also the Israelis, even if the actual announcement of the Israelis unambigously took place earlier in the day. In any event, this prompted me to look at the evidence for the midnight chart more carefully and report my findings to you. > > The 20° 56' Capricorn chart for Israel is interesting for the fact that the nodes, Rahu and Ketu, are placed at 20° 53' Aries H4 and Libra H10, respectively. This means that these houses and H2, H6, H8 and H12 are all severly afflicted. The weakness of H4, H8 and H10 is noticeable, given the bad placement of L4 Mars in H8 under close aspect of L12 Jupiter in H12, L10 Venus in H6 and the infancy of Sun in H5. The affliction involving L4 and H4 make the social tranquility and issue of housing vulnerable to being disrupted time and again with events that would be characterised as obstacles and endings, as well as losses, due to the impact of Jupiter as L12 to Mars in H8. With L10 Venus located in H6, with that house afflicted by Ketu, sudden events bring about strife. Moreover, the close affliction by the nodes to the houses suggests the grave problems regarding the house indications involved would be apparent immediately at the birth of the country. > > Indeed, the events that followed the creation of the State of Israel are described thus: > " Not long after (May 15, 1948), five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq – attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. After almost a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were instituted. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. " > > We know that many wars have been fought since and that skirmishes are daily bread for Israeli citizens. The adamant position of the Israelis is seen in the location of L10 in H6 and the affliction of Ketu to that house MEP. Indeed, their policy of an " eye for an eye " is a form of brute justice, reflecting perhaps their weak Sun, ruler of soul and wisdom, being natally weak. However, Jupiter is in ok strength, and it transmits a divine impulse to Mars, as L4. Hence, the constant disturbances of daily live and losses would be expected to impel the people to seek higher meaning. > > The chart has L2 Saturn at 23° 17' Cancer H7, along with L7 Moon at 15° 57' Cancer. As both are in H7 MEP, the influence and prestige of Israel is growing with time. However, the influence of Saturn would become more apparent after over 100 years from the states founding, or around 2065 AD. The influence of the Moon could become more apparent around 2200 AD. L9 Mercury at 17° 49' Taurus H5, favourably influences H11. This means that the State of Israel is blessed with good friends, which include the powerful USA and many western countries. The chart thus suggests this auspicious influence would be expected to manifest in full around 2100 AD. This suggests the best years are ahead for the state of Israel, albeit far into the future for the present generations. > > Some interesting insights into the chart. Both the Six Day War June 5-12, 1967 and the Yom Kippur War Oct. 6, 1973 took place in the sub-period of L10 Venus. In both incidents, transit L8 Sun was on house MEPs. Both peace agreements, the Camp David Accod on Sept. 17, 1978 and the Oslo Accord on Sept 13, 1993, took place in the sub- period of L7 Moon. These facts suggest the chart deserves careful study. Of course, a lot of historical and predictive work is required to settle the matter if this chart works from an astrological (SA) point of view or not. At least, it is interesting to have further information suggesting this time deserves special attention. > > Best wishes, > > Thor > > > > > > > > > > > > & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & & > > > " You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on. " > --- U.S. President George W. Bush, speaking at a Gridiron Club dinner, Washington, D.C., March 2001 > > > " Time and the Ocean, and some guiding star and High Cabal have made us what we are. " > > U.K. Prime Minister Winston Churchill, 3 October 1941 > > > " For nothing is hid that shall not be made manifest, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come to light... take heed then how you hear... " > > Luke 8:1718 > > > " 1913 was the final year of America's golden age: After indoor plumbing, but before the central bank and the income tax. " > > R. J. Rushdoony > > " Paper is poverty, .... it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself. " -- Thomas Jefferson, 1788 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.