Great Confusion - Sidereal Chart / Tropical Chart (Mahatma Gandhi's HoroScope)

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What is the meaning of these two terms, Following is an analysis of Gandhi's chart - Lalit.

Sidereal Chart: Libra Lagna Lagnesh Venus in 1st (awake) Mars & Mercury in Lagna (Mars asleep, Mercury sleepy) Lords of 1st, 2nd, 7th, 8th, 9th, & 12th in Lagna Tropical Chart: Scorpio Lagna Lagnesh Mars in 1st (awake) Venus & Mercury in Lagna (Venus asleep, Mercury asleep) Lords of 1st, 6th, 7th, 8th, 11th, & 12th in Lagna Sidereal Chart Interpretation: Libra is a moveable air sign. Moveable signs want to initiate things and make change. Air signs are intellectually centered. Air signs are oriented towards communication, relationships, social activity, self-development, experimentation with ideas, and enjoyment of life. Air signs relate to the sudra or servent caste. Air signs in general do not need fulfillment from their work. Instead, they need the freedom that a simple job creates, so that their lives have space for social activity and play. Libra is a rajasic sign, showing desire, motion, and the application of will towards making choices in life. Libra has a nice balance of masculine and feminine energy, being a masculine air sign ruled by a feminine planet, Venus. Venus is a planet of comfort, enjoyment, desire, relationships, healing, and comfort. Venus is a feminine planet related to the heart chakra, so it puts us in touch with our feelings, our desires, and the search for our ultimate fulfillment. Venus wants us to be happy and comfortable, so Venus is involved in helping us make choices in life. In Libra, this is expressed through the image of the scales, weighing options to see which is better. Libras have an innate sense of harmony and justice. They can both give and take, and they can accept the hardships in life, knowing that they are balanced out by the good things. When Libras see injustice, they can be motivated to take action to balance the scales somehow. Libras are especially oriented towards relationships and creating harmony between people. Libra can get into trouble when they base their lives too much on religious beliefs or philosophical righteousness. Instead, they are meant to accept everyone's outlook without judgment of right or wrong, so that they can create the harmony they seek in their relationships and in their greater society. In general, Libras are diplomatic and graceful, wanting to make everyone around them feel good as they move towards the thing that they themselves desire. Venus in the 1st in its own sign (awake) is a strengthening factor for the entire chart. This shows a person who is conscious of their own identity and their dharma in life. It shows a person who has an easier time projecting their own personality out into the world in order to gain attention and manifest their dharma. This placement also improves the overall health and strength of the body. With Venus being the awake Lagnesh, it especially enhances the body's ability to heal and recover from injury, and helps strengthen the virya (vital energy) of the body. However, Venus for Libra is not considered to be an auspicious planet. It is considered neutral in its effects to the overall success of the chart. For Libra, Venus also rules the 8th house, which shows Libra's tendency towards change and inconsistency. Mars is ruled by an enemy (asleep) in the 1st house. This is an unhappy Mars that will disrupt the things of the 1st house and the chart in general. Mars asleep in Libra is a Mars that creates challenges to taking action and asserting one's personality in the world, due to the greater need for diplomacy and social grace. Mars represents one's strength of character, so when Mars is afflicted there is low strength of character. This can often create an overcompensation where the person projects a false sense of confidence. This can make Mars behave in a bad way, creating an overly aggressive or combative nature. An unhappy Mars in Libra Lagna causes the Libra to become overly opinionated in a way that is not conducive to greater dharma of the individual. This will make the Libra want to enforce their opinions on other people. There may especially be issues in intimate relationships and partnerships, as Mars rules the 7th house for Libra. Mercury is ruled by a neutral (sleepy) in the 1st house. A sleepy planet is semi-conscious and has half its normal potency to fulfill its purpose in the chart. A sleepy Mercury in the Lagna can give somebody good communication skills and the ability to manage their health and all the little details of life. Mercury is an auspicious planet for Libra, ruling the 9th house of good fortune. This makes the person very connected to their own sense of spiritual or societal law. It also shows somebody who is willing to invest a lot of time, energy, and money towards their greater purpose, as Mercury also rules the 12th house of expenses. Lords of 1st, 2nd, 7th, 8th, 9th, & 12th in Lagna Lord of 1st: self-focused, involved in self-development, dharma, strong health and vitality Lord of 2nd: feeling responsible for the well-being of others, connection with family, friends, and community, wealth-oriented Lord of 7th: connected to relationships or partnerships, also can be career-oriented, especially politics, creates distant journeys Lord of 8th: creates change, stresses, battles, also interest in the occult or esoteric studies, confronting fears Lord of 9th: creates good fortune, spiritual nature, seeking teachers, knowledge & wisdom, oriented towards greater purpose Lord of 12th: expenses, needing to let go of attachment during life, investing time and energy towards self-development

Comment 1 :

straightforwardly that Ghandhi had very little things which can be called Gifts of Venus. He, of course, had love for music and his prayer meetings were always full of devotional music. He had the gift of writing, although his handwriting was not beautiful. He had the dasha of Venus in his young age, perhaps when he was in England for studying law where he started persuing all venusian activities like wearing good fashinable cloths, learning to dance and music etc. His sexual infatuation with his wife may also be in the same period. But, this was the end of it and in his rest of life, he shunned all pleasures. slowly, slowly, he become more and more a man of disciple who hates all venusian activities. He stopped enjoying cloths, food, sex and everything else. His venusian tendencies in his early life cannot be called a gift of Venus which gave meaning to his whole life. Those tendencies were perverted by his strong princples. That is why I don't think Venus in rising in Libra describes him well

Coment 2 :

few comments about the difference between Gandhi's chart in Sidereal and tropical. First though I want to say a few things. I think either approach is valid and however person gets a good answer is obviously the best technique for them. I believe Dave when he says that he is done 50 plus readings with clients and gets better results using tropical. I am sure he would not make that up just for the heck of it. So, great! How I work and delineate the chart does not work as well using the tropical zodiac. Gandhi's chart is a good example of why. At first these two charts may not look so different, Libra ascendant holding Mars, Mercury and Venus -- or Scorpio ascendant holding Mars, Mercury and Venus. In either case the ruling planet is in the first house, with Mercury and another planet -- a neutral planet to the lagna lord at that. Yet, when you start to assess the Yogas, planets as house lords, and other things -- it is much more compelling from the Sidereal zodiac in my opinion. First we must clarify a few things. For all intents and purposes, Mahatma Gandhi was a king. This chart needs to be looked at in the context of it having the most power you can possibly get from it. This man's vision ended the British occupation in India. This one man was more powerful than the British government. The chart of a king will usually have a bunch of Raja Yogas. Even though these two charts look very similar from Scorpio to Libra ascendant, they are very different. If this chart has a Scorpio ascendant, there are no Raja Yogas in the first house. With Libra ascended there are two Raja Yogas in the first house. Mercury is the ninth lord, forming a Raja with Venus, the first lord -- and Mars, the seventh lord. This is very different. With a Scorpio lagna all three dusthana lords are in the first house - and there are no Raja Yogas. With Libra ascendant you have two dusthana lords, but one of them is also the ninth lord, the most benefic in any chart. With a Scorpio ascendant, Mercury is a terrible malefic, ruling the most powerful dusthana and the most powerful cruel house. In either case, the moon stays in the 10 house. Yet with a Scorpio ascendant may gain a little bit due to his association with Ketu, forming a Raja yoga as a trine lord in an angle with the node. Yet, for a Libra ascendant the moon is the 10 house ruler in the 10 house with Ketu - still very strong. In fact, of the two I would prefer to see the node with his ruler, as is the case with a Libra ascendant. The 10th lord in the 10th with Ketu is certainly powerful enough to confer the fame that he is known for. Gandhi is known for his incredible powers of self-control, especially the hunger strike, tapas and discipline that brought the British crown to its knees. The main things that show this are the lagna being hemmed by Saturn and the Sun, as well as Saturn in the second house which gives the capacity to control his senses, diet -- even stop food intake altogether if the cause is great enough. Yet again, these indications are weakened considerably if it is a Scorpio ascendant. Here is why. Saturn especially becomes much weaker for Scorpio. For the Libra ascendant, Saturn is a Raja yoga planet, perhaps the most powerful planet in the entire chart. He goes to Scorpio, in the second house with the ruler of Scorpio in the first, associating with Mercury in a Raja Yogas and with the lagna lord. Everything about this association supports the type of immense power that would have been necessary for him to do what he did. The second house is literally the food we eat - the Raja yoga planet is there, it's ruler is in the first forming a Raja yoga with the ninth lord and 12th lord. If this is a Scorpio ascendant, Saturn is a difficult and willful house lord, (3rd house, a kama house) he goes into Sagittarius, and most importantly his ruler, Jupiter is in the seventh house (a kama house) in great enemy dignity in the sign of Taurus, one of the most sensual signs in the entire zodiac -- if not the most sensual. The capacity of Saturn for such tapas is compromised greatly, due to all of these factors, when you compare the two charts. In general, this chart is much stronger with a Libra ascendant. If this is a Scorpio ascendant, Venus and Mercury in the lagna would likely make this person very sensual. Remember the influence of benefics to malefics. Venus and Mercury will distract Mars in this first house. Mars will try to toughen Venus and Mercury. I understand the point of wanting to favor a Mars ruled lagna, given the power and discipline of Gandhi. But this Scorpio lagna is very weak with Venus and Mercury in it. Also, the sun is debilitated and Jupiter is in a very sensual sign. I simply do not see where this immense power and capacity to sacrifice comes from if this is a Scorpio lagna. The tendency to favor Scorpio, due to the nature of Mars, is already addressed with a Libra chart. Mars is in the lagna, participating in Raja yoga with the ninth and 12th lord - and lagna lord. Mars is powerful and operating with intelligence. With a Scorpio lagna he is very distracted with Venus and Mercury. There are a few other things, 10th lord Db for Scorpio, i don't get.. 10th lord in the 10th w/Ketu makes much more sense.. Jupiter in Taurus or Aries -- I favor Aries here.. firey principle and tapas, courageous and powerful - not sensual and pleasure seeking Taurus. Almost every planet gets weaker with the Scorpio lagna, and this man was a giant.. Perhaps even a Mahatama - a great Soul. Perhaps others see it differently, but applying the Jyotish principles that I regularly use has rendered the same result in this case as in every case. I simply see the chart much more clarified using the Sidereal zodiac. As I said my earlier post, once I start looking into the planets as House rulers, dispositors, etc. Sidereal zodiac reveals the chart with much more clarity. The reason it is hard to delineate the difference between the two zodiacs, is because planets stay in the same houses. Yet Vedic astrology places so much importance on the planets as house rulers, dispositors and how their Yogas form. This is a core quality of my practice. In fact, I pretty much wrote a book on the subject. Perhaps others practice in a different way however, and that is fine. Unless I start seeing many, many different things, I do not see myself switching to tropical zodiac anytime soon. It is always the same thing from my perspective -- similar indications due to the common house placements, but once I start assessing Yogas and house ruler ships, dispositors, etc. - it all seems to fall apart

Comment : 3

I do not believe in doing vedic astrology with tropical signs at all. But, one day Ernst tpld me that if you apply any rule of Vedic astrology on a tropical sign chart, it works better! And, he meant not only to apply this prescription on the basic concepts like the principles of house rulerships, dispositors and Yogas , but he meant that this prescription applies equally well on the advanced techniques and advanced dashas of Jaimini and Prashar as well given in their respective shashtrs. Since, he hadn't time to guide me due to his busy schedule in his classes, I am here discuusing these things. I want to check the claim: "All the vedic astrological techniques work better with tropical signs". This is a clear hypothesis. Either it should be true or false. No round answers. Dear Sadashiv, you say that for the particular kind of practice you do, sidereal signs are best. I told the same to Ernst. I told him that I have analyzed the charts of giants like Gandhi etc. (given in B. V. Raman's book `Notable horoscopes') using the sideral signs and I got no wring result. I asked him can he explain all those charts using vedic astrology and tropical signs. He answered in a definite yes. So, do not think that I am advocating a tropical zodic in vedic astrology, rather, I am testing it. In the following, I will behave like a believer in Ernst's system. I will frame all kind of arguments against your points in favor of sidereal signs. I will do so with the only motive that you or some other person following traditional system will refute my arguments and defend sidereal sign system. I would be happy if the sidereal system works better than tropical system. But, I cannot believe blindly in the sidereal system after reading Ernst's thoughts. I am not Ernst's student. Maybe, someone better than me versed in his techniques may analyze this chart so that we can see the tropical viewpoint in a better way and judge it. There are many Rajyogs with the Scorpio ascendant as well. First, Mars should be viewed as both a Kendr and Kon lord. I think, no body will doubt that ascendant is both kendr and kon. So, Mars is Rajyogakarak. Next Rajyogakarak planet is Jupiter as 5th lord and Moon as 9th lord. First, note that Mars and Jupiter are in mutual ascpect and so this is a Rajyog linking first and 5th lords. Next, note that Moon is in mutual angles to Mars and Jupiter. Mars as Kon lord joins with Kendr lord Venus and this is another Rajyog. Then, Jupiter as Kon lord receives a mutual aspect with Kendra lord Venus. These are some of the Rajyogs in the chart. So, you cannot claim that the tropical ascendant is weak due to lack of Rajyogs. You have correctly said that Moon/Ketu in 10th form a Rajyog in the tropical Scorpio rising chart. I like this combination better than the Moon in 10th as 10th lord which occurs in the sidereal chart. He had no wordly gains in profession as would have been indicated by such a Moon in its Dasha. Rather, he was struggling (Ketu) for his Dharma (9th lord) in that period. You cannot call Mars a Dusthan lord. It is a well known principle that ascendant lord is benific even if it is owning 6th, 8th or 12th. So, you have only two dusthan lords in ascendant. Venus (7th, 12th lord) and Mercury (8th, 11th lord) are, definitely, temporal malefic here which afflict ascendant, Mars (1st, 6th lord) and Jupiter (2nd/5th lord). I think these afflictions can be justified in Gandhi's life. Afflictions to ascendant/Mars are manifested as health problems. Afflictions to Jupiter/5th lord can be seen as conflicts with children. But, there are positive sides as well: Note that Mecury, Jupiter and Mars give rise to Dhan Yogs (Gandhi never had lack of funds for his Ashram or for his movements). Moreover, three Dushthan lords in conjunction form a vipreet rajyog according to many. Like the sidereal placement of Saturn, I can, also, see advantages of Saturn's position in Sagittarius tropically: Its dispositor is Jupiter(5th lord as well) in the seventh house and aspecting the ascendants and planets in it and forming two Rajyogs with Mars and Venus.. The 4th lord Saturn being disposited by 5th lord Jupiter indicates a stern and religious mother for Gandhi. Yes, Saturn is a difficult and willful house lord in the tropical sign chart. And, so, Gandhi's saturnine qualities like Taps, disciplines etc. were willful and forceful. They were not spontaneous and gentle. I am not criticizing him but only identifying the traits. See an example. In South Africa, Gandhi started serving people, a saturnine work definitely. But, he wanted that his wife also join him in that work and his demand was not gentle but forceful and willful. Take his abstention from delicious food in his ashrams as yet another example, or his denying his children from their demands of education and career. His acts, though motivated by morality, were harsh on others. Jupiter in a Kam house in a sensual sign is something that describes Gandhi's problems in his married life. It is true that he was of sensual nature in relation to his wife as he himself accepts in his autobiography. But, the morality of Jupiter caused a strong reaction in him against his sexuality. He couldn't forgive himself for his sexuality that dragged him down to the extent that he was enjoying sex with his pregnant wife on the night on which his father died. This reaction changed his life and he started repressing his sensual nature afterwards. The austerities (taps) of Gandhi were the result of this suppression caused by Jupiter in Taurus. Note that Jupiter is the lord of a Dharm house and so we should not doubt his intension behind his austerities. His intension was pure and spiritual. But, his attempts and methods were not successful since they were based upon suppression. I may even argue against your point which opposes the tropical sign chart by saying that Venus and Mercury distract Mars. My argument is that Mars is in its own house and so it will be strong enough to resist the influence of Venus and Mercury. This makes Gandhi a man of principles and Taps (Mars) and not a Venusian person as wood have been indicated by a Libra rising in the sidereal sign chart.. I don't think that the Scorpio Lagn in the tropical sign chart is very weak with Venus and Mercury in it. There are many Rajyogs with the Scorpio lagn if you consder Mars as a trine lord since Lagn is also a trine. Although, the Sun is debilited in 12th house, but, this shows simply that he was totally a not-political person who would not come in the light and get the credits. He was an apostle of sacrifices due to this combination. True, Jupiter is in a very sensual sign. But, this explains his urge for sensual pleasures with which he was fighting all through his life. This Jupiter describes him perfectly: a soul aspiring for purity but caught is the net of sensuality and fighting for its freedom. He himself accepts this when he says that he still was experimenting with the truth having not found it. The immense power and capacity to sacrifice comes from the factors many of which are common in both charts: banifics in angles, Rajyogs etc.