Shree Sanat Jain Astrology a science or myth

[Guest guest]

Dear Shree Sanat Namaste

 

My comments in your reply.

 

 

ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH

>Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some

misconcept regarding astrology on

>which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because

>you have been informed like

> this.

 

I am ready to be well informed. Are you ready to inform me what is

well?

 

>So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to

> whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of

>science due to some vested interest.

 

ok.

 

> I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in

>support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think

>that it is a science then let us examine it and then

>there will be no question of hurting, because you have not

>formulated the principles.

 

 

Yes correct. You should as well be equally open hearted.

 

 

 

>But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer

>only due to faith (which has

>been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a

>science without knowing the

>story of other side.

 

Who are you Lawyer or a Judge?

 

 

>I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose

>their business but if you are a

>client then you must have right to know the truth or call an

>astrologer in the consumer forum.

 

If you can get any astrloger in consumer forum it will surly help

Vedic Jyotish!

 

 

 

> > >

> > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early

> > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has

> > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This

> religious

> > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun,

> Moon,

> > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities).

 

Now,I think it is just your opinion and not a statement of fact!

 

 

>>In those days only

> sages

> > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after

> > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to

> predict

> > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called

> grabbing

> > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu.

 

This is again your opinion. Purpose of Rahu/Ketu is more than this.

 

 

> > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its

> > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations

> etc.

> > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is

> still

> > > being followed.

 

 

Now you have touched two different things! Finding duration of

eclipse and offering donations(i.e remedy for it) is altogether

different thing. Logic of each remedy can be seen if at all you are

ready to put yourself for that.

 

 

>It was also religious concept that fate of

> everybody

> > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this

situation,

> it

> > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the

fate

> of

> > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the

> fate of

> > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various

> > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of

> sages

> > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These

> principles

> > > were the key factors for deciding the fate.

 

 

This is again not correct. In a way you are trying to suggest that

since sages were able to predict grahana and that way Bhavishya of

the Sun, they were assigned to predict about mortal beings! I am

sorry,this is not the way Jyotisha came into being. On the other

hand, there is ample scope to think that the entire Chaturvarna

system and Hindu way of life revolved( and still continue to be)

around Jyotish.

 

> > >

> > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never

> percolated

> > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to

learn

> > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles

were

> > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western

> system.

 

 

At least you agree that Western world got it from here.

 

> > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group

> > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due

to

> > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to

fit

> > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle

> within a

> > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith

etc.,

> > > but they are unable to predict any future event.

 

 

It indeed seems to be a very common!

 

 

Because

> astrological

> > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical

> > > opposite to each other.

 

This is not true. You may like to think again about it.

 

 

 

 

If by chance a prediction (in fluke)

may

> come

> > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start

self

> > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on

other

> > > horoscopes to see their failure.

 

Here Astrologers are at fault, not Astrology I suppose!

 

 

 

 

 

>Thus astrologer can only

>mislead,

> > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on.

 

Yes they can but not all are alike. There are really some good

astrologers.

 

 

>You can find

> that

> > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say

> > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against

>astrology.

 

I suppose you are in both and hence finding your real position!

 

> But

> > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the

> level

> > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed

> > > astrological principles in primitive age

 

Primitive age? In Hindu context we are now living in intellectual

primitive age!

 

>and what procedure was

> > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship,

> > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary

> > > periodicity etc.

 

If you understand you will possibly appriciate Vedic Jyotish!

 

>If we analyse whole set of principles then

> following

> > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in

> subpara).

 

You seem to be doing that. Its really good.

 

 

 

> > >

> > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven

> > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ?

> > >

> > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the

stationary

> > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on..........

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

> > >

> > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and

> > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of

> each

> > > other) ?

> > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons

over

> > > nector after sea-churning...........

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

> > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full,

> quarter

> > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on

> seventh

> > > house) ?

> > > Based on the position of army in the battle field...........

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

 

> > >

> > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted

> and

> > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of

Aries

> > > sign) ?

 

> > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of

the

> > > day is more in comparison to night......

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

 

> > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and

hub

> of

> > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas

Venus

> (a

> > > small planet) has 20 years ?

> > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of

> > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted.......

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

 

> > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations

> between

> > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?

> > >

> > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures..........

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

> > >

> > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week

> > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ?

> > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the

> structure

> > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away.....

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

 

> > >

> > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion

of

> > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)?

> > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse.....

 

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

 

> > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180

> deg.

> > > apart?

> > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse...........

 

If it is your answer,then I feel it is not correct.

 

 

 

> > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ?

> > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month..........

> > >

> > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to

> > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave

> > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire

> > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of

> > > Universe.

 

 

You have good set of questions but possibly have not met correct

Jyotish. There are two persons who can answer all your question and

possibly help you to change your perception about Vedic Astrology.

One of them is Shree Sanjay Rath. Try to contact him first and

request him to listen to you seriously. In case you fail with Sanjay,

(Sanjay refuses to yield to you. I know that he has all your answers.

Whether he will share his knowledge with you depends on your good

luck.) contact me I will give address of the second one.

 

 

> > >

> > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then

> > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage

> > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the

> > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in

all

> > > religions).

 

 

Where has Parashara said that earth is in the center of universe and

stationary? Please,Quote the original shloka.

 

 

>Beside this it was also believed (you may read any

old

> > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is

> beyond

> > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and

Moon.

> > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles

are

> > > actually fabricated around this concept.

 

 

WHich old one are you refering here?

 

 

 

I my-self studying

> astrology

 

Self-study of any subject is very bad. Eklavya had to pay for it

heavily.

 

> > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct

> > > prediction.

 

Correct predictions using software??? You mean you developed s/w with

AI? I will be interested in knowing the algorithm/strategy adopted?

Please do answer this question as I know little bit of computer

algorithms having done B.E in computer science.

 

 

>But if it is true at one time then same combination

is

> > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically

and

> > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive

concept

> > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in

view

> of

> > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive

concept

> of

> > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.

 

 

We differ in the first place as to what is to be considered as

Primitive.

 

 

 

> > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on

> astrology " Jyotish -

> > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages).

 

 

WHy are you calling it as Original? Say simply a book! I think you

should have done this excercise of writting mails on verious fourms

as part of your research and there by should have got some authentic

information about Vedic Jyotish,before writting your book. Since you

are doing this after your book is in market, there is ample chance of

doubting your intentions. Although, I personally feel that all your

questions are unfeigned but you nerver know!

 

 

>This book

contains

> the

> > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the

> basis

> > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages

to

> > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in

> English

> > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You

can

> > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the

face

> of

> > > predictive astrology in due course.

 

 

May be but face lift is in domain of Saptarishis! The astrology

involved in Face and Saptarishi is what sages have written. Have you

ever gone for Saptarishi and their astrological relevance and face

lift? This is where you require a teacher to unfold all this things

for you.

 

 

 

 

>If you interested to know

>more

> > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may

> send

> > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc.

> > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?

> produktID=1759836

> > > <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836>

> > >

> > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%

> 20kumar%

> > > <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%

> 20kumar%>

> > > 20jain & TAG= & CID=

> > >

> > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?

> > > <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?>

> > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t

 

 

Marketing. So will not comment.

 

 

 

> > >

> > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune

nor

> they

> > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to

presence

> of

> > > Moon and shadow of Earth.

 

 

Are you asking this or telling? i.e. Puch rahe ho ki bata rahe ho? If

is later,where is a proof? and if it is former then you are

excercising your right to express your view.

 

 

 

That's why they have developed the

> concept

> > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was

> mentioned in

> > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within

14

> > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon).

 

 

QUote the original shlokas in Sanskrit script and your understading

of the shloka.

 

 

 

>But

> nobody

> > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when

> Sun,

> > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree

respectively

> on

> > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and

> Ketu

> > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-

> 1988 (

> > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar

eclipses

> > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more

then

> > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04

> deg.

> > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at

> 76.49

> > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was

15.14

> > > deg. away).

 

 

 

Once we read original shlokas from Grahlaghava,we will solve this

riddle as well!

 

 

> > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will

also

> > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at

> the

> > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was

not

> > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of

> myth).

> > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when

Moon

> > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there.

But

> As

> > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985

> and 3-

> > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full

> solar

> > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree

> > > respectively.

 

 

Are you sure about the Sun and the Moon deg?

 

 

>You will agree that when there were full solar

> eclipses

> > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166

> degree

> > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible.

> > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac.

> Thus

> > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees

respectively.

> All

> > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this

fundamental

> > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want

> then I

> > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting

> them.

 

Taht will be very good. Please do it as and when you get time.

 

 

> > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science

 

If this is logic then I am afraid, you are jumping to conclusions.

Moreover, why are you comparing Science and Astrology? These are two

different subjects with their own merit and demerit. If you want to

criticise Jyotish, do it as its own subject. By comparing it with

other subject discussions go everywhere. When you try to prove that

Jyotish is science,you possibly assuming that whatever science is the

only truth. It is indeed to some extent but beauty about science is

that it has a attribute of being 'Nitya Nutan'. It contradicts its

own principle over the period of time. SO whatever is truth according

to science may not be thruth tomorrow. But so far as it is not proved

untruth,we have to accept it as truth. In a way science makes us to

accept untruth as truth and very same truth as untruth.

 

 

but

> in

> > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy +

> > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology

> > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age)

> played an

> > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to

> immense

> > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology

> appears to

> > > be correct due to combined effect of all three.

 

WHy psychology? Usually Jyotish can solve and should only solve those

problems where Human efforts dont work. Out of 33 cores devatas which

one is most required for your current problem and in which form one

should propitiate it and with which instruments, is what is most

important aspect of Vedic Jyotish. Future telling is just tiny part

of that even that should be done under some conditions. Read BPHS or

Prashna Marga. Follow those rules in your test conditions.

 

 

>You will also

> agree

> > > with the above observation after going through my original

> > > revolutionary research.

 

Revolutionary resereach with out meeting correct teachers?

 

 

>Because if everything is pre-decided as

> was

> > > contention of sages

 

 

Where and who said that everything is pre-decided? Sages have not

said that. Sages have given enough freewill application in your life!

 

 

>then why we may take pains, why we may try

to

> do

> > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to

pre-

> > > written destiny.

 

WHo has written and where? This is not domain of Jyotish. Jyotish is

all about making the quality of life good. Some times by knowing

future sometimes by doing remedy.

 

 

>Secondly, there is no question of modifying

that

> pre-

> > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate,

 

 

Now look who is talking? How can you uuse a word like 'FATE'?

 

even

> then

> > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a

> cascading

> > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every

> > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say

pre-

> > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when

every

> Tom,

> > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good

> deed

> > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under

change.

 

There are many examples in our Epics where it is said that one can

change his course of life if such and such thing is done, Purans are

full of such stories. That is why there are remedial measures in

Vedic Jyotish.

 

> You

> > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical

> > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can

> never

> > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be

> > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also

> > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever

> prewritten)

> > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because

in

> > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be

altered

> but

> > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can

be

> > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of

> > > planets?

 

 

You seemed to be confused here!(I may be wrong as well!) But truly

speaking,it is not clear to me why same points are being raised using

different word combinition.

 

 

> > >

> > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured

> that

> > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all.

 

 

Those who want to compare Astrology and Science,I request to keep

them separate. It may be rest assured that Vedic Astrology makes your

life more comfortable than science!

 

 

>Only

> astronomy

> > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used

> > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears

> correct.

 

This is your conjucture. Is it not?

 

 

> > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth.

 

 

You can keep on saying this but you dont seem to be honest with

yourself.

 

 

> Still if

> > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The

James

> > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to

> > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works.

 

Once they learn to know how Vedic Astrlogy works, possibly they will

withdraw this offer.

 

 

 

 

>His e-mail and

> > > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and

> > > http://www.randi.org <http://www.randi.org> Because modern

> > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to

> > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business

> > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this

sort

> of

> > > ignorance.

 

 

Yours is certainly not logical approch.

 

 

 

My book has vital scientific information in this

regard

> > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology

> > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate

> > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information

of

> > > Universe, solar system.

 

I will surly read your book but not by paying from my pocket. You can

arrange a one for me and send it to me.

 

> > >

> > > I will like to have your critical comments for further

> interaction on

> > > my email sanatkumar_jain@

> > > <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> . It would be better

to

> know

> > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling

in

> > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS

> (Astrology Is

> > > Damaging Society).

 

 

It is more like Another Intellectual Damaging Society(AIDS)

 

 

 

Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

 

Prabodh Vekhande

Jai Jai Shankar

Har Har Shankar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:31 pm