Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Hello dear list members, In this message I consider three birth times that have been circulating for Barack Obama: a) 8:39 AM: 23° Leo rising b) 1:06 PM: 24° Libra rising c) 7:11 PM: 21° Capricorn rising (announced in mid May 2008) None of the birth times have been confirmed with an official birth certificate. As a result, they are all speculative at this stage. While one of them could be the true it is also possible that the true time is still unknown. Nevertheless, it may be helpful to consider the different times to see what they suggest for Mr. Obama's life and what to expect this summer, next fall or in years to come. On Astrodatabank there are some other times given but these may even be more speculative - as well as a biography of his life. http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/ObamaBarack.htm Birth Name: Obama, Barack Birth Date: 8/4/1961 (August 4, 1961) Birth Time: SOLAR CHART SET FOR 12:00 PM AHST Birth Place: Honolulu, Hawaii Latitude / Longitude: 21 N 18 / 157 W 51 Rodden Rating / Source: DD / Conflicting/unverified Source Notes: On May 15, 2008 at UAC Denver, Joni Patry announced that a client of hers knows someone who works on Obama’s campaign and who reports that Obama’s time of birth is 7:11 PM, from birth certificate. As this data cannot be confirmed or verified, we must keep the Rodden Rating of DD; however it is an interesting piece of news and does seem more reliable than the other times we have collected and posted to date. Previously, various times of birth have been circulated or posted. A time of 1:06 PM was provided by Fran McEvoy who told PT she couldn’t remember who gave it to her. She said that the person reportedly obtained the time from Obama and wished to remain anonymous. McEvoy adamantly denied that she heard it from Obama at a "shout-out" in NH as reported in the Andrew Mangino article in the NY Observer online of July 24, 2007. PT has received e-mails or seen postings listing 9:51 AM, 10:02 AM, 1:15 PM, 2:10 AM, 6:10 AM, “1-3 AM,” and “Virgo rising,” but these times have either been acknowledged to be speculation, rectification or otherwise not traceable to an original or reliable source. For an exhaustive overview of his life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_obama A. 22° 41' Leo is rising Jupiter-Venus period is operating - 1st lord SUN is at 18° 47' Cancer and 12th house. This placement suggests a somewhat retiring nature for a Leo native and could be consistent with the fact that he lost his father while a young boy. -12th lord MOON at 4° 19 Taurus and 10th house. This placement is good for experience with foreign countries and for the mother and her family. Supposedly, he is in close contact with the mothers side of the family, while the family of the father is far away in a tribal village in Kenya. - 7th lord SATURN is at 2° 02' Capricorn and 6th house. This placement for Saturn is quite weak. It suggests his spouse or foreign matters are involved in conflict. It could also suggest ill health or financial problems for wife. His wife is a lawyer. - 9th lord MARS at 28° 58' Leo and 1st house. This placement suggests that his luck is slow in coming and is vulnerable to setbacks. - 3rd lord VENUS at 7° 57' Gemini and 11th house suggests efforts and initiatives are successful, especially during the periods of Venus. Venus is under a relatively wide aspect from Ketu in the 7th house suggesting there can be sudden problems for the initiatives. The voice would be charming but perhaps with an odd quality. This placement is good for spouse and luxuries in life. The Venus period is operating until September 6, 2009, when the Sun period begins. It is a fact that Obama has had a his stellar rise in life, especially during the Venus sub-period. - 5th lord JUPITER is badly placed and debilitated at 7° 35' Capricorn and 6th house. Conflict and setbacks surround creativity, management and children. The aspect from 2nd lord Mercury to Jupiter would give some status to the above indications. - 2nd lord MERCURY at 8° 06' Cancer and 12th house. This placement suggests that obtaining status is an uphill struggle and that the native may leave his place of birth. The aspect of Jupiter gives some creative abilities to the status in foreign countries. The fact that his father comes from a Muslim background may have created some difficulty for him in a mostly Christian country. However, his active participation in the Christian church has been noted and in fact this has been a source of problems for him. - RAHU in the ascendant gives a worldy influence on the person. Rahu features seem to distinguish his person. - KETU in the 7th house gives an other-worldly influence on the spouse. Overall this ascendant does not look promising as it lacks overall strength. There are four planets badly placed, including the 1st lord. However, the strongest planet is the 3rd lord in the house of hopes, wishes and plans and its period is running. To watch for: a nodal station at 24° 30' Capricorn/6th house and Cancer/12th house in the summer of 2008 would be difficult as it afflicts within 2° orb the most effective point of the 6th and 12th houses as well as all the other even numbered houses. Challenges would be seen with regard to foreign countries and conflict. B. 24° 10' Libra is rising Jupiter-Venus period is operating - 11th lord SUN is well placed at 18° 58' Cancer and 10th house. This would add element of hopes, wishes and plans to career and be good for income in profession. - 10th lord MOON is weak and badly placed 6° 41' Taurus and 8th house. As Moon is the dispositor of the Sun, its placement would impart obstacles to the career. This placement could also be consistent with the loss of father early in the life. -1st lord VENUS is strong in Gemini and 9th house. This placement gives luck to the native in life and bring helpful foreign influences into the life, especially during the Venus periods. The 4° orb aspect from Ketu in the 5th house would give some short lived strains. The Venus period ends on August 12, 2008 when the Sun period begins. It is a fact that Obama is married to a strong woman, is religious, seems to enjoy life and be highly motivated. The aspect from Ketu could also explain the difficulties he has had concerning statements by his religious mentors. -12th lord MERCURY in the 10th house. This placement would be good for foreign matters, but create some strain on career. The aspect from 3rd lord Jupiter would give minor boost from initiatives. -3 lord JUPITER is well placed but debilitated in the 4th house. The exact aspect from 12th lord MERCURY could give periodic setbacks or losses. - 5th lord SATURN in the 4th house in infancy would give slow progress with regard to its indications but be vulnerable to setbacks. - RAHU in 11th house and KETU in 5th house suggest some difficulties in these area. Overall, this chart looks like it has more potential, with the strongest planet, 1st lord placed in the 9th house. However, the other planets all seem to have some defect. So, it is not a perfect chart by any stretch of the imagination. To watch for: a nodal station at 24° 30' Capricorn/4th house and Cancer/10th house in the summer of 2008 would be very difficult as it exactly afflicts the 10th and 4th houses as well as all the other even numbered houses. Severe strain or crisis would be seen with regard to career and peace of mind. C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising Jupiter-Moon period is operating - 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. The most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most effective point (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles for 7th house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st house of self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, it would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth through e.g. inheritance. - 7th lord MOON is well placed 9° 55' Taurus and 5th house. However, its aspect from a debilitated 12th lord Jupiter at 7° 35' Capricorn in the ascendant would be bad for the mother and family. During the Moon period there could be setbacks to spouse and foreign matters. As the Moon is the dispositor of the Sun, its condition would amplify the obstacles and endings seen to these indications by the placement of the Sun. -10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th house. This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is often seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing the cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the 2nd house would give periodic setbacks in career. -9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would be good for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. However, the aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring difficulties to married life. -12th lord JUPITER is debilitated but well placed in the 1st house, which could bring a tendency for selfishness. The aspect from 9th lord Mercury to Jupiter could give some luck in foreign matters. - 2nd lord SATURN in the 1st house would give slow progress in status, wealth and family which would be liable to setbacks. - RAHU in 8th house and KETU in 2nd house suggest difficulties or strains in these areas. Overall, this chart does not look very promising, with three planets weak from being badly placed, 2 planets weakened by affliction and the MMP afflicting houses of self and spouse. To watch for: a nodal station at 24° 30' Capricorn/1st house and Cancer/7th house in the summer of 2008 would be slightly difficult as the nodes afflict widely the 1st and 7th houses as well as the other even numbered houses. However, the orb of affliction is minimal. Some strain would be seen with regard to self and spouse - and foreign policy initiatives. One thing that may be helpful for rectification is the height of a person. While there is no official information, internet reports suggest Barack Obama is avearage to slightly above average in height - with reports ranging from 5' 11'' to 6' 2''. His slender frame may also make him look taller than he actually is. The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the 1st house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra ascendant might make him closer to the average. As these times are uncertain, the charts given are speculative. We need to follow each of these charts over time to become convinced of the merit of one over the others. Even then, the possibility remains that none is based on the true birth time. Best wishes, Thor - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 One correction: In the reading for 21° Capricorn rising chart, a slight revision in the reading is called for. The 7th lord Moon in 5th house is outside of 1° orb (actually 2° 23' orb) from a debilitated 12th lord Jupiter in the 1st house. As a result, it is not seriously afflicted. Moreover, as the dispositor of 9th lord Mercury in 7th house, this is helpful to Mercury. However, the aspect of Jupiter to a moderately combust Mercury, with an orb of 1° 27', is slightly harmful to the indications of Mercury. Cosmologer <cosmologersamva Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2008 10:25:16 AM Barack Obama's chart(s) Hello dear list members, In this message I consider three birth times that have been circulating for Barack Obama: a) 8:39 AM: 23° Leo rising b) 1:06 PM: 24° Libra rising c) 7:11 PM: 21° Capricorn rising (announced in mid May 2008) None of the birth times have been confirmed with an official birth certificate. As a result, they are all speculative at this stage. While one of them could be the true it is also possible that the true time is still unknown. Nevertheless, it may be helpful to consider the different times to see what they suggest for Mr. Obama's life and what to expect this summer, next fall or in years to come. On Astrodatabank there are some other times given but these may even be more speculative - as well as a biography of his life. http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/ObamaBarack.htm Birth Name: Obama, Barack Birth Date: 8/4/1961 (August 4, 1961) Birth Time: SOLAR CHART SET FOR 12:00 PM AHST Birth Place: Honolulu, Hawaii Latitude / Longitude: 21 N 18 / 157 W 51 Rodden Rating / Source: DD / Conflicting/unverified Source Notes: On May 15, 2008 at UAC Denver, Joni Patry announced that a client of hers knows someone who works on Obama’s campaign and who reports that Obama’s time of birth is 7:11 PM, from birth certificate. As this data cannot be confirmed or verified, we must keep the Rodden Rating of DD; however it is an interesting piece of news and does seem more reliable than the other times we have collected and posted to date. Previously, various times of birth have been circulated or posted. A time of 1:06 PM was provided by Fran McEvoy who told PT she couldn’t remember who gave it to her. She said that the person reportedly obtained the time from Obama and wished to remain anonymous. McEvoy adamantly denied that she heard it from Obama at a "shout-out" in NH as reported in the Andrew Mangino article in the NY Observer online of July 24, 2007. PT has received e-mails or seen postings listing 9:51 AM, 10:02 AM, 1:15 PM, 2:10 AM, 6:10 AM, “1-3 AM,” and “Virgo rising,” but these times have either been acknowledged to be speculation, rectification or otherwise not traceable to an original or reliable source. For an exhaustive overview of his life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_obama A. 22° 41' Leo is rising Jupiter-Venus period is operating - 1st lord SUN is at 18° 47' Cancer and 12th house. This placement suggests a somewhat retiring nature for a Leo native and could be consistent with the fact that he lost his father while a young boy. -12th lord MOON at 4° 19 Taurus and 10th house. This placement is good for experience with foreign countries and for the mother and her family. Supposedly, he is in close contact with the mothers side of the family, while the family of the father is far away in a tribal village in Kenya. - 7th lord SATURN is at 2° 02' Capricorn and 6th house. This placement for Saturn is quite weak. It suggests his spouse or foreign matters are involved in conflict. It could also suggest ill health or financial problems for wife. His wife is a lawyer. - 9th lord MARS at 28° 58' Leo and 1st house. This placement suggests that his luck is slow in coming and is vulnerable to setbacks. - 3rd lord VENUS at 7° 57' Gemini and 11th house suggests efforts and initiatives are successful, especially during the periods of Venus. Venus is under a relatively wide aspect from Ketu in the 7th house suggesting there can be sudden problems for the initiatives. The voice would be charming but perhaps with an odd quality. This placement is good for spouse and luxuries in life. The Venus period is operating until September 6, 2009, when the Sun period begins. It is a fact that Obama has had a his stellar rise in life, especially during the Venus sub-period. - 5th lord JUPITER is badly placed and debilitated at 7° 35' Capricorn and 6th house. Conflict and setbacks surround creativity, management and children. The aspect from 2nd lord Mercury to Jupiter would give some status to the above indications. - 2nd lord MERCURY at 8° 06' Cancer and 12th house. This placement suggests that obtaining status is an uphill struggle and that the native may leave his place of birth. The aspect of Jupiter gives some creative abilities to the status in foreign countries. The fact that his father comes from a Muslim background may have created some difficulty for him in a mostly Christian country. However, his active participation in the Christian church has been noted and in fact this has been a source of problems for him. - RAHU in the ascendant gives a worldy influence on the person. Rahu features seem to distinguish his person. - KETU in the 7th house gives an other-worldly influence on the spouse. Overall this ascendant does not look promising as it lacks overall strength. There are four planets badly placed, including the 1st lord. However, the strongest planet is the 3rd lord in the house of hopes, wishes and plans and its period is running. To watch for: a nodal station at 24° 30' Capricorn/6th house and Cancer/12th house in the summer of 2008 would be difficult as it afflicts within 2° orb the most effective point of the 6th and 12th houses as well as all the other even numbered houses. Challenges would be seen with regard to foreign countries and conflict. B. 24° 10' Libra is rising Jupiter-Venus period is operating - 11th lord SUN is well placed at 18° 58' Cancer and 10th house. This would add element of hopes, wishes and plans to career and be good for income in profession. - 10th lord MOON is weak and badly placed 6° 41' Taurus and 8th house. As Moon is the dispositor of the Sun, its placement would impart obstacles to the career. This placement could also be consistent with the loss of father early in the life. -1st lord VENUS is strong in Gemini and 9th house. This placement gives luck to the native in life and bring helpful foreign influences into the life, especially during the Venus periods. The 4° orb aspect from Ketu in the 5th house would give some short lived strains. The Venus period ends on August 12, 2008 when the Sun period begins. It is a fact that Obama is married to a strong woman, is religious, seems to enjoy life and be highly motivated. The aspect from Ketu could also explain the difficulties he has had concerning statements by his religious mentors. -12th lord MERCURY in the 10th house. This placement would be good for foreign matters, but create some strain on career. The aspect from 3rd lord Jupiter would give minor boost from initiatives. -3 lord JUPITER is well placed but debilitated in the 4th house. The exact aspect from 12th lord MERCURY could give periodic setbacks or losses. - 5th lord SATURN in the 4th house in infancy would give slow progress with regard to its indications but be vulnerable to setbacks. - RAHU in 11th house and KETU in 5th house suggest some difficulties in these area. Overall, this chart looks like it has more potential, with the strongest planet, 1st lord placed in the 9th house. However, the other planets all seem to have some defect. So, it is not a perfect chart by any stretch of the imagination. To watch for: a nodal station at 24° 30' Capricorn/4th house and Cancer/10th house in the summer of 2008 would be very difficult as it exactly afflicts the 10th and 4th houses as well as all the other even numbered houses. Severe strain or crisis would be seen with regard to career and peace of mind. C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising Jupiter-Moon period is operating - 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. The most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most effective point (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles for 7th house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st house of self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, it would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth through e.g. inheritance. - 7th lord MOON is well placed 9° 55' Taurus and 5th house. However, its aspect from a debilitated 12th lord Jupiter at 7° 35' Capricorn in the ascendant would be bad for the mother and family. During the Moon period there could be setbacks to spouse and foreign matters. As the Moon is the dispositor of the Sun, its condition would amplify the obstacles and endings seen to these indications by the placement of the Sun. -10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th house. This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is often seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing the cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the 2nd house would give periodic setbacks in career. -9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would be good for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. However, the aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring difficulties to married life. -12th lord JUPITER is debilitated but well placed in the 1st house, which could bring a tendency for selfishness. The aspect from 9th lord Mercury to Jupiter could give some luck in foreign matters. - 2nd lord SATURN in the 1st house would give slow progress in status, wealth and family which would be liable to setbacks. - RAHU in 8th house and KETU in 2nd house suggest difficulties or strains in these areas. Overall, this chart does not look very promising, with three planets weak from being badly placed, 2 planets weakened by affliction and the MMP afflicting houses of self and spouse. To watch for: a nodal station at 24° 30' Capricorn/1st house and Cancer/7th house in the summer of 2008 would be slightly difficult as the nodes afflict widely the 1st and 7th houses as well as the other even numbered houses. However, the orb of affliction is minimal. Some strain would be seen with regard to self and spouse - and foreign policy initiatives. One thing that may be helpful for rectification is the height of a person. While there is no official information, internet reports suggest Barack Obama is avearage to slightly above average in height - with reports ranging from 5' 11'' to 6' 2''. His slender frame may also make him look taller than he actually is. The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the 1st house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra ascendant might make him closer to the average. As these times are uncertain, the charts given are speculative. We need to follow each of these charts over time to become convinced of the merit of one over the others. Even then, the possibility remains that none is based on the true birth time. Best wishes, Thor - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 >C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising Jupiter-Moon period is operating< Dear Thor, I have written before on the Capricorn rising chart. If ascendant is Capricorn the time should be much later IMO. Obama is running on a wave of popularity in the Mo sub period. Exalted Mo is well placed in 5H (politics). It is also well placed in the D10. This period can give wide recognition in his political career. >- 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. The most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most effective point (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles for 7th house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st house of self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, it would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth through e.g. inheritance. < This is quite an affliction. I think this orb should be greater. There is nothing to suggest that his recent Ju/Su period was unfavourable. >-10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th house. This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is often seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing the cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the 2nd house would give periodic setbacks in career. < It is not a good placement for career but can show a career in medicine or law. Obama went to law school and worked as an associate attorney and state legislator. >-9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would be good for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. However, the aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring difficulties to married life. < Jupiter’s aspect to Mercury shows the early loss of father. >The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the 1st house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra ascendant might make him closer to the average.< Saturn in the ascendant can give thin build? You didn’t mention Mars but it is an interesting planet for this ascendant. As the 4th lord in the 8H(research) it shows his desire to trace his family origins in Africa (4H of ancestors and heritage). This is also a placement for addictions and separation from the place of birth. As a young adult he had to reconcile social perceptions of his multiracial heritage He wrote that he used alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his teenage years to " push questions of who I was out of my mind " . For the Capricorn ascendant this is an extremely problematic Mars. He is in danger in the Ju/Ma period starting in February 2009. A vedic astrologer would recommend remedial measures and have them carried out. Obama’s chart connects very well with the SAMVA USA chart so he must resonate very well with the people of the country. There is a possibility that he may become president but due to health /longevity issues or conspiracies, deception or intrigues he may have to step down. So even if he becomes president don’t count Hillary Clinton out. She has a strong chart for high office(I use Libra asc). This may be vice president or president of some other organization --- still exceptional in itself. Notwithstanding, I think there is a strong possibility that HC can become president but in a very strange and convoluted way. The interesting thing about this election is that it is drilling at America’s psyche. Is it the new unknown future or more conservative future? The next president will certainly have enormous challenges. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear Ron, You may very well be right. In particular, it is a good call to move the Ascendant degree back. It will be interesting to study this ascendant more closely for him. Best wishes, Thor SAMVA , RonDay <ronkar wrote: > > >C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising > Jupiter-Moon period is operating< > > Dear Thor, > I have written before on the Capricorn rising chart. If ascendant is > Capricorn the time should be much later IMO. > > Obama is running on a wave of popularity in the Mo sub period. Exalted > Mo is well placed in 5H (politics). It is also well placed in the D10. > This period can give wide recognition in his political career. > > > >- 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. The > most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most effective point > (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles for 7th > house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st house of > self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, it > would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth > through e.g. inheritance. < > > This is quite an affliction. I think this orb should be greater. There > is nothing to suggest that his recent Ju/Su period was unfavourable. > > > >-10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th house. > This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is often > seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing the > cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the 2nd > house would give periodic setbacks in career. < > > It is not a good placement for career but can show a career in medicine > or law. > Obama went to law school and worked as an associate attorney and state > legislator. > > > >-9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would be good > for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. However, the > aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring > difficulties to married life. < > > Jupiter's aspect to Mercury shows the early loss of father. > > > >The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the 1st > house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra ascendant > might make him closer to the average.< > > Saturn in the ascendant can give thin build? > > > You didn't mention Mars but it is an interesting planet for this > ascendant. As the 4th lord in the 8H(research) it shows his desire to > trace his family origins in Africa (4H of ancestors and heritage). > > This is also a placement for addictions and separation from the place of > birth. > As a young adult he had to reconcile social perceptions of his > multiracial heritage He wrote that he used alcohol, marijuana, and > cocaine during his teenage years to " push questions of who I was out of > my mind " . > > For the Capricorn ascendant this is an extremely problematic Mars. He is > in danger in the Ju/Ma period starting in February 2009. A vedic > astrologer would recommend remedial measures and have them carried out. > > Obama's chart connects very well with the SAMVA USA chart so he must > resonate very well with the people of the country. > > There is a possibility that he may become president but due to health > /longevity issues or conspiracies, deception or intrigues he may have to > step down. So even if he becomes president don't count Hillary Clinton > out. She has a strong chart for high office(I use Libra asc). This may > be vice president or president of some other organization --- still > exceptional in itself. Notwithstanding, I think there is a strong > possibility that HC can become president but in a very strange and > convoluted way. > > The interesting thing about this election is that it is drilling at > America's psyche. Is it the new unknown future or more conservative > future? The next president will certainly have enormous challenges. > > > Ron > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear Ron, It is good to keep in mind that the time 7:11 PM was cited as being based on the Birth Certificate. The plausibility of this ascendant, gives credibility to this information. In view of that, perhaps a small deviation from it would be justifiable, say up to 10 minutes. This would give 23° 51' Capricorn rising - with the Sun at the very edge of the MEP. The impact of the affliction would then be expected to manifest in his life in coming few years. This rising degree could also be tested in view of the nodal station this summer at 24° 30'. The closer the rising degree to the nodal station, the greater would be the strain on him and his wife. This also sounds reasonable, given the campaigning he will have to endure this summer. What do you think? Best, Thor SAMVA , " cosmologer " <cosmologer wrote: > > Dear Ron, > > You may very well be right. In particular, it is a good call to move > the Ascendant degree back. It will be interesting to study this > ascendant more closely for him. > > Best wishes, > > Thor > > > SAMVA , RonDay <ronkar@> wrote: > > > > >C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising > > Jupiter-Moon period is operating< > > > > Dear Thor, > > I have written before on the Capricorn rising chart. If ascendant > is > > Capricorn the time should be much later IMO. > > > > Obama is running on a wave of popularity in the Mo sub period. > Exalted > > Mo is well placed in 5H (politics). It is also well placed in the > D10. > > This period can give wide recognition in his political career. > > > > > > >- 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. > The > > most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most effective > point > > (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles > for 7th > > house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st > house of > > self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, > it > > would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth > > through e.g. inheritance. < > > > > This is quite an affliction. I think this orb should be greater. > There > > is nothing to suggest that his recent Ju/Su period was unfavourable. > > > > > > >-10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th > house. > > This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is > often > > seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing > the > > cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the 2nd > > house would give periodic setbacks in career. < > > > > It is not a good placement for career but can show a career in > medicine > > or law. > > Obama went to law school and worked as an associate attorney and > state > > legislator. > > > > > > >-9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would be > good > > for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. However, > the > > aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring > > difficulties to married life. < > > > > Jupiter's aspect to Mercury shows the early loss of father. > > > > > > >The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the > 1st > > house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra > ascendant > > might make him closer to the average.< > > > > Saturn in the ascendant can give thin build? > > > > > > You didn't mention Mars but it is an interesting planet for this > > ascendant. As the 4th lord in the 8H(research) it shows his desire > to > > trace his family origins in Africa (4H of ancestors and heritage). > > > > This is also a placement for addictions and separation from the > place of > > birth. > > As a young adult he had to reconcile social perceptions of his > > multiracial heritage He wrote that he used alcohol, marijuana, and > > cocaine during his teenage years to " push questions of who I was > out of > > my mind " . > > > > For the Capricorn ascendant this is an extremely problematic Mars. > He is > > in danger in the Ju/Ma period starting in February 2009. A vedic > > astrologer would recommend remedial measures and have them carried > out. > > > > Obama's chart connects very well with the SAMVA USA chart so he > must > > resonate very well with the people of the country. > > > > There is a possibility that he may become president but due to > health > > /longevity issues or conspiracies, deception or intrigues he may > have to > > step down. So even if he becomes president don't count Hillary > Clinton > > out. She has a strong chart for high office(I use Libra asc). This > may > > be vice president or president of some other organization --- still > > exceptional in itself. Notwithstanding, I think there is a strong > > possibility that HC can become president but in a very strange and > > convoluted way. > > > > The interesting thing about this election is that it is drilling at > > America's psyche. Is it the new unknown future or more conservative > > future? The next president will certainly have enormous challenges. > > > > > > Ron > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear Thor, I know that it is a big change from the recorded BT time but I moved the ascendant to 27 deg Cap. so that Mars would impact the MEP’s of the houses it aspects. The way BT’s are recorded in hospitals is very imprecise and some times recorded to the minute are way out. There are many events available for Obama (and several more to come) so it should be possible to tune the ascendant more precisely. Ron cosmologer wrote: > Dear Ron, > > It is good to keep in mind that the time 7:11 PM was cited as being > based on the Birth Certificate. The plausibility of this ascendant, > gives credibility to this information. In view of that, perhaps a > small deviation from it would be justifiable, say up to 10 minutes. > This would give 23° 51' Capricorn rising - with the Sun at the very > edge of the MEP. The impact of the affliction would then be expected > to manifest in his life in coming few years. This rising degree could > also be tested in view of the nodal station this summer at 24° 30'. > The closer the rising degree to the nodal station, the greater would > be the strain on him and his wife. This also sounds reasonable, given > the campaigning he will have to endure this summer. What do you think? > > Best, > > Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Dear Ron, That is fine. We can follow closely the 27° and 24° Capricorn rising charts for him this summer and longer if necessary. The salient differences are as follows: A. In the 27° rising chart, Mars is in the MEP of the 8th house but the 8th lord Sun is not in the MEP of the 7th house. B. In the 24° rising chart, the reverse holds true and Mars is not in the MEP of the 8th house but the 8th lord Sun is in the MEP of the 7th house. In A, we could note that a planet that is badly placed and in advanced old age, as 4th lord MARS at 29° 15' Leo and 8th house, such a planet becomes very weak. This means that the realisation of the 4th house indications and the general indications of the planet Mars would be hampered in the life. Moreover, the expression of these indications would primarily take place in the context of areas indicated by the 8th house house. In the MEP, the weakness of a planet becomes more apparent and its influence on the houses aspected is less than would otherwise be the case. In this case, the favourable influence of 4th lord Mars on the 8th, 11th, 2nd and 3rd houses would be there, but only minimally so. Given the conjunction orb of Mars to the MEP of just over 2°, this energy would have become active in his 20s. In B., first we can note that the impact of the nodes would be strongly felt this summer. Secondly, as the 8th lord SUN is strong at 19° Cancer and its influence on the 7th and 1st houses would be expected to come to fruition at around this stage in his life, given the just under 5° orb and the fact that Barack Obama is now in his 47th year. Needless to say, this is not a welcome influence in a chart. Fortunately, he is not running a Sun period. However, he is running the period of the Moon, and Sun is in the sign of the Moon and impacting its MEP, thereby having a indirect influence on the Moon. Best wishes, Thor SAMVA , RonDay <ronkar wrote: > > Dear Thor, > I know that it is a big change from the recorded BT time but I moved the > ascendant to 27 deg Cap. so that Mars would impact the MEP's of the > houses it aspects. > The way BT's are recorded in hospitals is very imprecise and some times > recorded to the minute are way out. > There are many events available for Obama (and several more to come) so > it should be possible to tune the ascendant more precisely. > > Ron > > > cosmologer wrote: > > Dear Ron, > > > > It is good to keep in mind that the time 7:11 PM was cited as being > > based on the Birth Certificate. The plausibility of this ascendant, > > gives credibility to this information. In view of that, perhaps a > > small deviation from it would be justifiable, say up to 10 minutes. > > This would give 23° 51' Capricorn rising - with the Sun at the very > > edge of the MEP. The impact of the affliction would then be expected > > to manifest in his life in coming few years. This rising degree could > > also be tested in view of the nodal station this summer at 24° 30'. > > The closer the rising degree to the nodal station, the greater would > > be the strain on him and his wife. This also sounds reasonable, given > > the campaigning he will have to endure this summer. What do you think? > > > > Best, > > > > Thor > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Dear Ron and Thor: I am sorry that I must have missed some of the previous emails about using the 7:11 p.m. birth time for Senator Obama. Maybe there was some thread of posts justifying this chart. However, I think that Capricorn may not be the correct rising sign. With Capricorn, the Most Malefic Planet, Sun is afflicting the house of marriage, partners, and relationships, and it afflicts the first house of appearance and reputation. It would also, therefore, weaken both Jupiter and Saturn, which are placed in the first house, and Mercury, which is placed in the seventh house. In essence, with this chart, all of the planets are weak, and hardly give rise to his succcess. On the other hand, his magnetic personality seems to be linked to the Libra rising sign, and the 1:06 p.m. birth time. With Libra, he is running the Venus sub period, which is well placed in the ninth house of dharma and divine grace. My apologies if this was previously covered. David Hawthorne SAMVA [sAMVA ] On Behalf Of cosmologer Monday, June 09, 2008 2:22 AM SAMVA Re: Barack Obama's chart(s) Dear Ron, It is good to keep in mind that the time 7:11 PM was cited as being based on the Birth Certificate. The plausibility of this ascendant, gives credibility to this information. In view of that, perhaps a small deviation from it would be justifiable, say up to 10 minutes. This would give 23° 51' Capricorn rising - with the Sun at the very edge of the MEP. The impact of the affliction would then be expected to manifest in his life in coming few years. This rising degree could also be tested in view of the nodal station this summer at 24° 30'. The closer the rising degree to the nodal station, the greater would be the strain on him and his wife. This also sounds reasonable, given the campaigning he will have to endure this summer. What do you think? Best, Thor SAMVA , " cosmologer " <cosmologer wrote: > > Dear Ron, > > You may very well be right. In particular, it is a good call to move > the Ascendant degree back. It will be interesting to study this > ascendant more closely for him. > > Best wishes, > > Thor > > > SAMVA , RonDay <ronkar@> wrote: > > > > >C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising > > Jupiter-Moon period is operating< > > > > Dear Thor, > > I have written before on the Capricorn rising chart. If ascendant > is > > Capricorn the time should be much later IMO. > > > > Obama is running on a wave of popularity in the Mo sub period. > Exalted > > Mo is well placed in 5H (politics). It is also well placed in the > D10. > > This period can give wide recognition in his political career. > > > > > > >- 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. > The > > most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most effective > point > > (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles > for 7th > > house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st > house of > > self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, > it > > would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth > > through e.g. inheritance. < > > > > This is quite an affliction. I think this orb should be greater. > There > > is nothing to suggest that his recent Ju/Su period was unfavourable. > > > > > > >-10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th > house. > > This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is > often > > seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing > the > > cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the 2nd > > house would give periodic setbacks in career. < > > > > It is not a good placement for career but can show a career in > medicine > > or law. > > Obama went to law school and worked as an associate attorney and > state > > legislator. > > > > > > >-9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would be > good > > for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. However, > the > > aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring > > difficulties to married life. < > > > > Jupiter's aspect to Mercury shows the early loss of father. > > > > > > >The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the > 1st > > house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra > ascendant > > might make him closer to the average.< > > > > Saturn in the ascendant can give thin build? > > > > > > You didn't mention Mars but it is an interesting planet for this > > ascendant. As the 4th lord in the 8H(research) it shows his desire > to > > trace his family origins in Africa (4H of ancestors and heritage). > > > > This is also a placement for addictions and separation from the > place of > > birth. > > As a young adult he had to reconcile social perceptions of his > > multiracial heritage He wrote that he used alcohol, marijuana, and > > cocaine during his teenage years to " push questions of who I was > out of > > my mind " . > > > > For the Capricorn ascendant this is an extremely problematic Mars. > He is > > in danger in the Ju/Ma period starting in February 2009. A vedic > > astrologer would recommend remedial measures and have them carried > out. > > > > Obama's chart connects very well with the SAMVA USA chart so he > must > > resonate very well with the people of the country. > > > > There is a possibility that he may become president but due to > health > > /longevity issues or conspiracies, deception or intrigues he may > have to > > step down. So even if he becomes president don't count Hillary > Clinton > > out. She has a strong chart for high office(I use Libra asc). This > may > > be vice president or president of some other organization --- still > > exceptional in itself. Notwithstanding, I think there is a strong > > possibility that HC can become president but in a very strange and > > convoluted way. > > > > The interesting thing about this election is that it is drilling at > > America's psyche. Is it the new unknown future or more conservative > > future? The next president will certainly have enormous challenges. > > > > > > Ron > > > --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Dear David, We are also considering 24° and 27° Capricorn rising, as explained in earlier mails. Best wishes, Thor SAMVA , " David Hawthorne " <david wrote: > > Dear Ron and Thor: > > I am sorry that I must have missed some of the previous emails about using > the 7:11 p.m. birth time for Senator Obama. > > Maybe there was some thread of posts justifying this chart. > > However, I think that Capricorn may not be the correct rising sign. > > With Capricorn, the Most Malefic Planet, Sun is afflicting the house of > marriage, partners, and relationships, and it afflicts the first house of > appearance and reputation. > > It would also, therefore, weaken both Jupiter and Saturn, which are placed > in the first house, and Mercury, which is placed in the seventh house. > > In essence, with this chart, all of the planets are weak, and hardly give > rise to his succcess. > > On the other hand, his magnetic personality seems to be linked to the Libra > rising sign, and the 1:06 p.m. birth time. > > With Libra, he is running the Venus sub period, which is well placed in the > ninth house of dharma and divine grace. > > My apologies if this was previously covered. > > David Hawthorne > > > SAMVA [sAMVA ] On Behalf Of > cosmologer > Monday, June 09, 2008 2:22 AM > SAMVA > Re: Barack Obama's chart(s) > > Dear Ron, > > It is good to keep in mind that the time 7:11 PM was cited as being > based on the Birth Certificate. The plausibility of this ascendant, > gives credibility to this information. In view of that, perhaps a > small deviation from it would be justifiable, say up to 10 minutes. > This would give 23° 51' Capricorn rising - with the Sun at the very > edge of the MEP. The impact of the affliction would then be expected > to manifest in his life in coming few years. This rising degree could > also be tested in view of the nodal station this summer at 24° 30'. > The closer the rising degree to the nodal station, the greater would > be the strain on him and his wife. This also sounds reasonable, given > the campaigning he will have to endure this summer. What do you think? > > Best, > > Thor > SAMVA , " cosmologer " <cosmologer@> wrote: > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > You may very well be right. In particular, it is a good call to > move > > the Ascendant degree back. It will be interesting to study this > > ascendant more closely for him. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Thor > > > > > > SAMVA , RonDay <ronkar@> wrote: > > > > > > >C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising > > > Jupiter-Moon period is operating< > > > > > > Dear Thor, > > > I have written before on the Capricorn rising chart. If ascendant > > is > > > Capricorn the time should be much later IMO. > > > > > > Obama is running on a wave of popularity in the Mo sub period. > > Exalted > > > Mo is well placed in 5H (politics). It is also well placed in > the > > D10. > > > This period can give wide recognition in his political career. > > > > > > > > > >- 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. > > The > > > most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most > effective > > point > > > (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles > > for 7th > > > house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st > > house of > > > self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, > > it > > > would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth > > > through e.g. inheritance. < > > > > > > This is quite an affliction. I think this orb should be greater. > > There > > > is nothing to suggest that his recent Ju/Su period was > unfavourable. > > > > > > > > > >-10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th > > house. > > > This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is > > often > > > seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing > > the > > > cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the > 2nd > > > house would give periodic setbacks in career. < > > > > > > It is not a good placement for career but can show a career in > > medicine > > > or law. > > > Obama went to law school and worked as an associate attorney and > > state > > > legislator. > > > > > > > > > >-9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would > be > > good > > > for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. > However, > > the > > > aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring > > > difficulties to married life. < > > > > > > Jupiter's aspect to Mercury shows the early loss of father. > > > > > > > > > >The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the > > 1st > > > house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra > > ascendant > > > might make him closer to the average.< > > > > > > Saturn in the ascendant can give thin build? > > > > > > > > > You didn't mention Mars but it is an interesting planet for this > > > ascendant. As the 4th lord in the 8H(research) it shows his > desire > > to > > > trace his family origins in Africa (4H of ancestors and heritage). > > > > > > This is also a placement for addictions and separation from the > > place of > > > birth. > > > As a young adult he had to reconcile social perceptions of his > > > multiracial heritage He wrote that he used alcohol, marijuana, > and > > > cocaine during his teenage years to " push questions of who I was > > out of > > > my mind " . > > > > > > For the Capricorn ascendant this is an extremely problematic > Mars. > > He is > > > in danger in the Ju/Ma period starting in February 2009. A vedic > > > astrologer would recommend remedial measures and have them > carried > > out. > > > > > > Obama's chart connects very well with the SAMVA USA chart so he > > must > > > resonate very well with the people of the country. > > > > > > There is a possibility that he may become president but due to > > health > > > /longevity issues or conspiracies, deception or intrigues he may > > have to > > > step down. So even if he becomes president don't count Hillary > > Clinton > > > out. She has a strong chart for high office(I use Libra asc). > This > > may > > > be vice president or president of some other organization --- > still > > > exceptional in itself. Notwithstanding, I think there is a strong > > > possibility that HC can become president but in a very strange > and > > > convoluted way. > > > > > > The interesting thing about this election is that it is drilling > at > > > America's psyche. Is it the new unknown future or more > conservative > > > future? The next president will certainly have enormous > challenges. > > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Dear David,Where is the 1:06 time found? Thanks. SallyOn Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 4:55 PM, David Hawthorne <david wrote: Dear Ron and Thor: I am sorry that I must have missed some of the previous emails about using the 7:11 p.m. birth time for Senator Obama. Maybe there was some thread of posts justifying this chart. However, I think that Capricorn may not be the correct rising sign. With Capricorn, the Most Malefic Planet, Sun is afflicting the house of marriage, partners, and relationships, and it afflicts the first house of appearance and reputation. It would also, therefore, weaken both Jupiter and Saturn, which are placed in the first house, and Mercury, which is placed in the seventh house. In essence, with this chart, all of the planets are weak, and hardly give rise to his succcess. On the other hand, his magnetic personality seems to be linked to the Libra rising sign, and the 1:06 p.m. birth time. With Libra, he is running the Venus sub period, which is well placed in the ninth house of dharma and divine grace. My apologies if this was previously covered. David Hawthorne SAMVA [sAMVA ] On Behalf Of cosmologer Monday, June 09, 2008 2:22 AM SAMVA Re: Barack Obama's chart(s) Dear Ron, It is good to keep in mind that the time 7:11 PM was cited as being based on the Birth Certificate. The plausibility of this ascendant, gives credibility to this information. In view of that, perhaps a small deviation from it would be justifiable, say up to 10 minutes. This would give 23° 51' Capricorn rising - with the Sun at the very edge of the MEP. The impact of the affliction would then be expected to manifest in his life in coming few years. This rising degree could also be tested in view of the nodal station this summer at 24° 30'. The closer the rising degree to the nodal station, the greater would be the strain on him and his wife. This also sounds reasonable, given the campaigning he will have to endure this summer. What do you think? Best, Thor SAMVA , " cosmologer " <cosmologer wrote: > > Dear Ron, > > You may very well be right. In particular, it is a good call to move > the Ascendant degree back. It will be interesting to study this > ascendant more closely for him. > > Best wishes, > > Thor > > > SAMVA , RonDay <ronkar@> wrote: > > > > >C: 20° 57' Capricorn is rising > > Jupiter-Moon period is operating< > > > > Dear Thor, > > I have written before on the Capricorn rising chart. If ascendant > is > > Capricorn the time should be much later IMO. > > > > Obama is running on a wave of popularity in the Mo sub period. > Exalted > > Mo is well placed in 5H (politics). It is also well placed in the > D10. > > This period can give wide recognition in his political career. > > > > > > >- 8th lord SUN is well placed at 19° 13' Cancer and 7th house. > The > > most malefic planet (MMP), the Sun, is conjunct the most effective > point > > (MEP) of the 7th house, which would suggest endings or obstacles > for 7th > > house indications, including the spouse. The affliction to 1st > house of > > self would also place him at risk of accidents. At the same time, > it > > would give him or his wife a formidable presence and bring wealth > > through e.g. inheritance. < > > > > This is quite an affliction. I think this orb should be greater. > There > > is nothing to suggest that his recent Ju/Su period was unfavourable. > > > > > > >-10th lord VENUS is weak and badly placed in Gemini and 6th > house. > > This placement suggests conflict in career. Such a placement is > often > > seen in the charts of politicians who spend a long time advancing > the > > cause of contentious matters. The 4 orb aspect from Ketu in the 2nd > > house would give periodic setbacks in career. < > > > > It is not a good placement for career but can show a career in > medicine > > or law. > > Obama went to law school and worked as an associate attorney and > state > > legislator. > > > > > > >-9th lord MERCURY at 8° 59' in Cancer and the 7th house would be > good > > for foreign matters and give a spouse from a good family. However, > the > > aspect from Jupiter and the influence of the Sun could bring > > difficulties to married life. < > > > > Jupiter's aspect to Mercury shows the early loss of father. > > > > > > >The Leo ascendant or Capricorn ascendant with Sun aspecting the > 1st > > house MEP could be consistent with taller height but the Libra > ascendant > > might make him closer to the average.< > > > > Saturn in the ascendant can give thin build? > > > > > > You didn't mention Mars but it is an interesting planet for this > > ascendant. As the 4th lord in the 8H(research) it shows his desire > to > > trace his family origins in Africa (4H of ancestors and heritage). > > > > This is also a placement for addictions and separation from the > place of > > birth. > > As a young adult he had to reconcile social perceptions of his > > multiracial heritage He wrote that he used alcohol, marijuana, and > > cocaine during his teenage years to " push questions of who I was > out of > > my mind " . > > > > For the Capricorn ascendant this is an extremely problematic Mars. > He is > > in danger in the Ju/Ma period starting in February 2009. A vedic > > astrologer would recommend remedial measures and have them carried > out. > > > > Obama's chart connects very well with the SAMVA USA chart so he > must > > resonate very well with the people of the country. > > > > There is a possibility that he may become president but due to > health > > /longevity issues or conspiracies, deception or intrigues he may > have to > > step down. So even if he becomes president don't count Hillary > Clinton > > out. She has a strong chart for high office(I use Libra asc). This > may > > be vice president or president of some other organization --- still > > exceptional in itself. Notwithstanding, I think there is a strong > > possibility that HC can become president but in a very strange and > > convoluted way. > > > > The interesting thing about this election is that it is drilling at > > America's psyche. Is it the new unknown future or more conservative > > future? The next president will certainly have enormous challenges. > > > > > > Ron > > > --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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