Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Hello dear Mr. Jo Cohen, I will consider as the last time for referendum for making the chart. I will wait for the results of your further research/info. Best wishes. - " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo <SAMVA > Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:04 PM Re: France chart > Hello dear > > Good idea to take the 28th september 1958 for France. > You suggest to start with 5PM, which gives 25°21 Capricorn ascendant. > This chart has some merits. One problem I see is the weakness of the Sun > trough dispositor Mercury in state of combustion and affliction of Rahu on > mep : this doesn't fit with the fact that, since the Vth Republic started, > the head of state and the government were always very strong while > parliament was in position of weakness. Some opponents use to say that the > Vth Reprublic has restored a kind of monarchy in France. This statement > fits with the spirit of Charles de Gaulle. > > The closing time for votes in France is actually 18H00 everywhere and > 20H00 > for Paris. > I will check about the closing times for 1958. > > Best Wishes > > Jo Cohen > > - > " SIHA " <vkchoudhry > <SAMVA > > Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:28 PM > Re: France chart > > >> Hello dear Mr. Cohen, >> >> In view of these incidents, we can take 28th September, 1958, as the day >> and >> then comes the question of the time. The closing time of the referendum >> can >> be taken as the birth time for the country chart. And then various >> important >> incidents can be seen for ascertaining the feasibility. If we take this >> closing time as 5.00 PM, many important events, at random, are shown in >> transit influences. A great deal of work is required to be done. >> >> Best wishes. >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo >> <SAMVA > >> Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:46 PM >> Re: France chart >> >> >>> Hello dear >>> >>> Here are the data I gathered on this topic. >>> >>> General de Gaulle, who had retired from politics a decade before, placed >>> himself in the midst of the crisis of may 1958, calling on the nation to >>> suspend the government and create a new constitutional system. >>> >>> De Gaulle was carried to power by the inability of the parliament to >>> choose >>> a government, popular protest, and the last parliament of the Fourth >>> Republic voting for their dissolution and the convening of a >>> constitutional >>> convention. >>> >>> The 19th may 1958 he announced for the first time publicly his intention >>> to >>> create a new constitution and to ask french people to vote for it (or >>> against) through a referendum. >>> >>> He negociated this point with President Rene Coty before coming back the >>> 29th may 1958 as President du Conseil - a kind of Prime Minister under >>> the >>> IVth Republic. >>> >>> The 3rd June 1958, french deputies gave him their OK to go for this new >>> constitution. >>> >>> The text was written during summertime by a cicle of lawyers. >>> >>> The constitution was presented in a formal way in Paris on the 4th >>> september >>> 1958, Place de la République, afternoon time. >>> >>> The referendum that took place on 28th september was favorable. >>> The constitution was promulgated the 4th of october. >>> The publication on Journal Officiel was made on the 5th. >>> >>> Best Wishes >>> >>> Jo Cohen >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> " SIHA " <vkchoudhry >>> <SAMVA > >>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:38 PM >>> Re: France chart >>> >>> >>>> OK, dear Mr. Cohen. >>>> >>>> Best wishes. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - >>>> " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo >>>> <SAMVA > >>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:39 PM >>>> Re: France chart >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hello dear >>>>> >>>>> I will try to find time and date for the decision for the referendum. >>>>> >>>>> Best Wishes >>>>> >>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> " SIHA " <vkchoudhry >>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:13 PM >>>>> Re: France chart >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello dear Mr. Cohen, >>>>>> >>>>>> Any insight on the date and time of the decision for the referendom >>>>>> may >>>>>> be >>>>>> interesting to look into. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best wishes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>>> " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo >>>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:35 PM >>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello dear >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The new Constitution was adopted after a referendum held on 28th >>>>>>> september >>>>>>> 1958. French people were asked if they were favorable or not for >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> Constitution of the Vth Republic, presented for the first time to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> country the 4th september 1958. This initiative came after a long >>>>>>> period >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> 'political paralysis', the IVth Republic being unable to bring >>>>>>> political >>>>>>> stability and strong authority to the government. The General de >>>>>>> Gaulle >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> at the center of this initiative. French people answered YES >>>>>>> massively >>>>>>> (80%) >>>>>>> to this referendum. The new Constitution was published in the >>>>>>> Journal >>>>>>> Officiel on 5th october 1958. General de Gaulle became the first >>>>>>> president >>>>>>> of the Vth Republic on 8th January 1959. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> " SIHA " <vkchoudhry >>>>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>>>> Cc: " John TWB " <jtwbjakarta >>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:33 AM >>>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello dear Mr. John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of the proposed charts by dear Mr. Jorge Angelino is >>>>>>> for the Fifth Republic which came into existence with the >>>>>>> publication >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> new Constitution in the Journal Official on 5 October 1958, in >>>>>>> Paris. >>>>>>> It >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> understood that the legislation creating the Republic came into >>>>>>> effect >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> 00.00 hrs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there any historical event which gives the date and time for the >>>>>>> agreement which was arrived at for preparation and publication of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Constitution? That is very important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The chart proposed by Mr. Jorge Angelino is appears to be the better >>>>>>> representative between these two charts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best wishes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>>>> SAMVA >>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:28 PM >>>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Jolastro >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The french western astrologers generally use the birth of the fifth >>>>>>> republic >>>>>>> as the birth chart for France. From the interpretation of this >>>>>>> unique >>>>>>> event, >>>>>>> two charts came out and are potential candidates (see attached jtl >>>>>>> files). >>>>>>> I followed these two charts for two years now. >>>>>>> I have never been convinced by their authenticity. >>>>>>> Some more research is absolutely necessary. >>>>>>> From Thor's experience with SAMVA USA Chart, you know it takes a >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> time to reach the goal. >>>>>>> Only full dedication can help finding the authentic chart for >>>>>>> France. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> " Cosmologer " <cosmologer >>>>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:29 AM >>>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Jolastro, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are many times being considered, including the founding of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> 5th >>>>>>> Republic, but I don´t think one in particular has been established >>>>>>> yet >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the authentic birth time of France based on SA. Perhaps French list >>>>>>> members, >>>>>>> like Jo Cohen, know more about the status of this inquiry? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Astro Zem <zemastro >>>>>>> SAMVA >>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:59:25 AM >>>>>>> France chart >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Professor and list members, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could someone give me the chart data for France used by SA >>>>>>> astrologers >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bests regards, >>>>>>> Jolastro >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Hello dear The closing time for votes in Paris the 28th september 1958 was 22H00. For other cities, I have not found any mention of time. If we take 22H00 for the 28/9/1958, we have Gemini ascendant in the early degrees. Now, let's consider also that the results of this referendum were known and published only the 4th october 1948. According to the comments made by many politicians, " the outcome of this referendum was not a surprise " . The referendum was not a real issue according to these same comments. From the intention of De Gaulle to change the constitution to its materialisation, the turning point was the 4th september 1958 when De Gaulle presented the concepts of his new constitution in a very formal way in Paris, Place de la République, between 14H and 15H. The video document relating this presentation can be seen on INA website (see the link). With 14H30, we have another possible chart with Scorpio ascendant and a very strong Sun in the tenth house. I'd be very happy to hear your ideas and comments. Best Wishes Jo Cohen link : http://www.ina.fr/archivespourtous/index.php?vue=notice & from=themes & code=C082178\ 8768 & num_notice=1 & total_notices=19 You need to have QickTime on your computer to see this informative video - " SIHA " <vkchoudhry <SAMVA > Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:54 PM Re: France chart > > Hello dear Mr. Jo Cohen, > > I will consider as the last time for referendum for making the chart. I > will wait for the results of your further research/info. > > Best wishes. > > > > > > - > " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo > <SAMVA > > Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:04 PM > Re: France chart > > >> Hello dear >> >> Good idea to take the 28th september 1958 for France. >> You suggest to start with 5PM, which gives 25°21 Capricorn ascendant. >> This chart has some merits. One problem I see is the weakness of the Sun >> trough dispositor Mercury in state of combustion and affliction of Rahu >> on >> mep : this doesn't fit with the fact that, since the Vth Republic >> started, >> the head of state and the government were always very strong while >> parliament was in position of weakness. Some opponents use to say that >> the >> Vth Reprublic has restored a kind of monarchy in France. This statement >> fits with the spirit of Charles de Gaulle. >> >> The closing time for votes in France is actually 18H00 everywhere and >> 20H00 >> for Paris. >> I will check about the closing times for 1958. >> >> Best Wishes >> >> Jo Cohen >> >> - >> " SIHA " <vkchoudhry >> <SAMVA > >> Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:28 PM >> Re: France chart >> >> >>> Hello dear Mr. Cohen, >>> >>> In view of these incidents, we can take 28th September, 1958, as the day >>> and >>> then comes the question of the time. The closing time of the referendum >>> can >>> be taken as the birth time for the country chart. And then various >>> important >>> incidents can be seen for ascertaining the feasibility. If we take this >>> closing time as 5.00 PM, many important events, at random, are shown in >>> transit influences. A great deal of work is required to be done. >>> >>> Best wishes. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo >>> <SAMVA > >>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:46 PM >>> Re: France chart >>> >>> >>>> Hello dear >>>> >>>> Here are the data I gathered on this topic. >>>> >>>> General de Gaulle, who had retired from politics a decade before, >>>> placed >>>> himself in the midst of the crisis of may 1958, calling on the nation >>>> to >>>> suspend the government and create a new constitutional system. >>>> >>>> De Gaulle was carried to power by the inability of the parliament to >>>> choose >>>> a government, popular protest, and the last parliament of the Fourth >>>> Republic voting for their dissolution and the convening of a >>>> constitutional >>>> convention. >>>> >>>> The 19th may 1958 he announced for the first time publicly his >>>> intention >>>> to >>>> create a new constitution and to ask french people to vote for it (or >>>> against) through a referendum. >>>> >>>> He negociated this point with President Rene Coty before coming back >>>> the >>>> 29th may 1958 as President du Conseil - a kind of Prime Minister under >>>> the >>>> IVth Republic. >>>> >>>> The 3rd June 1958, french deputies gave him their OK to go for this new >>>> constitution. >>>> >>>> The text was written during summertime by a cicle of lawyers. >>>> >>>> The constitution was presented in a formal way in Paris on the 4th >>>> september >>>> 1958, Place de la République, afternoon time. >>>> >>>> The referendum that took place on 28th september was favorable. >>>> The constitution was promulgated the 4th of october. >>>> The publication on Journal Officiel was made on the 5th. >>>> >>>> Best Wishes >>>> >>>> Jo Cohen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - >>>> " SIHA " <vkchoudhry >>>> <SAMVA > >>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:38 PM >>>> Re: France chart >>>> >>>> >>>>> OK, dear Mr. Cohen. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo >>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:39 PM >>>>> Re: France chart >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hello dear >>>>>> >>>>>> I will try to find time and date for the decision for the referendum. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>> >>>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>>> " SIHA " <vkchoudhry >>>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:13 PM >>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello dear Mr. Cohen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any insight on the date and time of the decision for the referendom >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> interesting to look into. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best wishes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> " Jo Cohen " <cohen.jo >>>>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:35 PM >>>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello dear >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The new Constitution was adopted after a referendum held on 28th >>>>>>>> september >>>>>>>> 1958. French people were asked if they were favorable or not for >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>> Constitution of the Vth Republic, presented for the first time to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> country the 4th september 1958. This initiative came after a long >>>>>>>> period >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> 'political paralysis', the IVth Republic being unable to bring >>>>>>>> political >>>>>>>> stability and strong authority to the government. The General de >>>>>>>> Gaulle >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> at the center of this initiative. French people answered YES >>>>>>>> massively >>>>>>>> (80%) >>>>>>>> to this referendum. The new Constitution was published in the >>>>>>>> Journal >>>>>>>> Officiel on 5th october 1958. General de Gaulle became the first >>>>>>>> president >>>>>>>> of the Vth Republic on 8th January 1959. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> " SIHA " <vkchoudhry >>>>>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>>>>> Cc: " John TWB " <jtwbjakarta >>>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:33 AM >>>>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello dear Mr. John, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One of the proposed charts by dear Mr. Jorge Angelino is >>>>>>>> for the Fifth Republic which came into existence with the >>>>>>>> publication >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> new Constitution in the Journal Official on 5 October 1958, in >>>>>>>> Paris. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> understood that the legislation creating the Republic came into >>>>>>>> effect >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> 00.00 hrs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there any historical event which gives the date and time for the >>>>>>>> agreement which was arrived at for preparation and publication of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> Constitution? That is very important. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The chart proposed by Mr. Jorge Angelino is appears to be the >>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>> representative between these two charts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best wishes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>>>>> SAMVA >>>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:28 PM >>>>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Jolastro >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The french western astrologers generally use the birth of the >>>>>>>> fifth >>>>>>>> republic >>>>>>>> as the birth chart for France. From the interpretation of this >>>>>>>> unique >>>>>>>> event, >>>>>>>> two charts came out and are potential candidates (see attached jtl >>>>>>>> files). >>>>>>>> I followed these two charts for two years now. >>>>>>>> I have never been convinced by their authenticity. >>>>>>>> Some more research is absolutely necessary. >>>>>>>> From Thor's experience with SAMVA USA Chart, you know it takes a >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> time to reach the goal. >>>>>>>> Only full dedication can help finding the authentic chart for >>>>>>>> France. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>>> Jo Cohen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> " Cosmologer " <cosmologer >>>>>>>> <SAMVA > >>>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:29 AM >>>>>>>> Re: France chart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Jolastro, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are many times being considered, including the founding of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> 5th >>>>>>>> Republic, but I don´t think one in particular has been established >>>>>>>> yet >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> the authentic birth time of France based on SA. Perhaps French >>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>> members, >>>>>>>> like Jo Cohen, know more about the status of this inquiry? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thor >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Astro Zem <zemastro >>>>>>>> SAMVA >>>>>>>> Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:59:25 AM >>>>>>>> France chart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Professor and list members, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Could someone give me the chart data for France used by SA >>>>>>>> astrologers >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bests regards, >>>>>>>> Jolastro >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.