France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

[Guest guest]



Hello my dear Thor,

Hello Jolastro,

Hello dear list members,

 

 

Rémi Panisset is working on a similar chart since 7 years now, and he seems very satisfied with the results. I have studied his chart by myself for few months and I have also a positive feeling about this chart.

 

But, for the moment, I prefer not to give the exact birth data of this chart because it is Rémi's work as he was the first SA astrologer to have find it. I will ask him if he is OK that I give the birth data for France on SAMVA. I know he is still in the final validation process of the chart that was under his examination for seven years.

 

Probably, he would have preferred this process totally completed before presenting this chart. But, Nature has probably other plans....

 

I have just sent him an email. I'll keep you and all the group informed.

 

Best Wishes

 

Jo

 

 

-

Cosmologer

samva

Monday, April 06, 2009 10:44 PM

France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Dear Jo, Jolastro and other interested list members,

 

 

 

I have been considering a chart for France.

 

 

I have been thinking that if there is a modern event that could be equated with the rebirth of France, it could be associated with the rupture in French self-governance during World War II, when France was under German rule. While a government in exile existed it was more symbolic than actual. So, I began to research the history of this time and found the following:

 

"The liberation of Paris took place on August 25 1944 when general Dietrich von Choltitz accepted the French ultimatum and surrendered to general Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque, commander of the Free French 2nd Armored Division, ignoring orders from Hitler that Paris should be held to the last and to destroy the city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_France#Liberation_of_France

 

De Gaulle’s provisional government takes over liberated France on August 25, 1944

On August 15, U.S. Gen. Jacob Dever's Sixth Army Group, consisting of a combined U.S. and French troops, conducted Operation Dragoon, invading the port city Marseille and marching up the Rhône River valley. Before Dever's forces met the other Allies, the Germans managed to remove more than half their forces from southern France. Still, on August 19, Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower changed his original plan of stopping at the Seine, and decided to push on toward Germany. Spurred by the advancing Allies, Free French forces rose up in active resistance. By August 25, the U.S. V Corps entered Paris behind the French 2nd Armored Division, and Gen. Charles de Gaulle established his government that day.

http://www.answers.com/topic/liberation-of-france

　

DeGaulle returns to Paris for a rousing reception

"At the time he returned to France in August 1944 (he had not been told in advance of the D Day landings) his authority as leader of Free France was unquestioned and he received a tumultuous reception when he walked down the Champs Elysées on 25 August. To the status he enjoyed as liberator was added the authority he possessed as head of a provisional government which contained representatives of all France's political forces, including the powerful Communist Party."

http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-de-gaulle

De Gaulle's speech on 25 August 1944

Why do you desire that we hide the emotion which seizes us all, men and women, who are here, at home, in Paris that stood up to liberate itself and that knew how to do this with its own hands? No! We will not hide this deep and sacred emotion. These are minutes which go beyond each of our poor lives. Paris! Outraged Paris! Broken Paris! Martyred Paris! But liberated Paris! Liberated by itself, liberated by its people with the help of the French armies, with the support and the help of all France, of the France that fights, of the only France, of the real France, of the eternal France! Well! Since the enemy which held Paris has capitulated into our hands, France returns to Paris, to her home. She returns bloody, but quite resolute. She returns there enlightened by the immense lesson, but more certain than ever of her duties and of her rights. I speak of her duties first, and I will sum them all up by saying that for now, it is a matter of the duties of war. The enemy staggers, but he is not vanquished yet. He remains in our territory. It will not even be enough that we have, with the help of our dear and admirable Allies, chased him from our home for us to consider ourselves satisfied after what has happened. We want to enter his territory as is fitting, as victors. This is why the French vanguard has entered Paris with guns blazing. This is why the French grande armée of Italy has landed in Southern France (Operation Dragoon) and is advancing quickly up north through the Rhone valley. This is why our brave and dear Forces of the Interior will arm itself with modern weapons. It is for this revenge, this vengeance and justice, that we will keep fighting until the last day, until the day of total and complete victory. This duty of war, all the men who are here and all those who hear us in France know that it demands national unity. We, who have lived the greatest hours of our History, we have nothing else to wish than to show ourselves, up to the end, worthy of France. Long live France!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_Paris#De_Gaulle.27s_speech_.2825_August.29

 

It seems to me that the time of the Speech by De Gaulle could be worth investgating for seeing if a chart on this day could work.

 

The Three Parties governed from 1944 to 1946, or until the constitution for the Fourth Republic took effect on Oct. 13 1946.

 

Interestingly, for the authentic chart of France I wuold think that the planets Venus (giving enjoyment and arts), Saturn (legacy of ancient heritage) and Sun (the State) would be strong and importantly placed in the chart. A scorpio rising chart on this day, seems to foot the bill, but it is just one possibility. I would rather first look at the chart when De Gaulle made his triumphant speech before exploring other possibilities.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Thor

 

PS The German army was finally pushed out of France on January 25, 1945.

 

"The Battle of the Bulge officially ended when the 501st airborne met the 101st on 25 January 1945...In the wake of the defeat, many experienced German units were left severely depleted of men and equipment, as survivors retreated to the defences of the Siegfried Line."

 

"Operation North Wind (Unternehmen Nordwind) was the last major German offensive of the Second World War on the Western Front. It began on 1 January 1945 in Alsace and Lorraine in north-eastern France, and it ended on 25 January."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hello my dear Jo,

 

Thank you for sharing the information. It is good to know Remi is working on a chart for France based on SA. Of course, we look forward to see his findings. When you say he is "working on a similar chart" I take it to mean a chart similar to the Liberation chart?

 

Best wishes,

 

Thor

 

 

 

Jo COHEN <cohen.joSAMVA Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 6:00:19 AMRe: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 Hello my dear Thor,

Hello Jolastro,

Hello dear list members,

 

 

Rémi Panisset is working on a similar chart since 7 years now, and he seems very satisfied with the results. I have studied his chart by myself for few months and I have also a positive feeling about this chart.

 

But, for the moment, I prefer not to give the exact birth data of this chart because it is Rémi's work as he was the first SA astrologer to have find it. I will ask him if he is OK that I give the birth data for France on SAMVA. I know he is still in the final validation process of the chart that was under his examination for seven years.

 

Probably, he would have preferred this process totally completed before presenting this chart. But, Nature has probably other plans....

 

I have just sent him an email. I'll keep you and all the group informed.

 

Best Wishes

 

Jo

 

 

-

Cosmologer

samva

Monday, April 06, 2009 10:44 PM

France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Dear Jo, Jolastro and other interested list members,

 

 

 

I have been considering a chart for France.

 

 

I have been thinking that if there is a modern event that could be equated with the rebirth of France, it could be associated with the rupture in French self-governance during World War II, when France was under German rule. While a government in exile existed it was more symbolic than actual. So, I began to research the history of this time and found the following:

 

"The liberation of Paris took place on August 25 1944 when general Dietrich von Choltitz accepted the French ultimatum and surrendered to general Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque, commander of the Free French 2nd Armored Division, ignoring orders from Hitler that Paris should be held to the last and to destroy the city."

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_France# Liberation_ of_France

 

De Gaulle’s provisional government takes over liberated France on August 25, 1944

On August 15, U.S. Gen. Jacob Dever's Sixth Army Group, consisting of a combined U.S. and French troops, conducted Operation Dragoon, invading the port city Marseille and marching up the Rhône River valley. Before Dever's forces met the other Allies, the Germans managed to remove more than half their forces from southern France. Still, on August 19, Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower changed his original plan of stopping at the Seine, and decided to push on toward Germany. Spurred by the advancing Allies, Free French forces rose up in active resistance. By August 25, the U.S. V Corps entered Paris behind the French 2nd Armored Division, and Gen. Charles de Gaulle established his government that day.

http://www.answers. com/topic/ liberation- of-france

　

DeGaulle returns to Paris for a rousing reception

"At the time he returned to France in August 1944 (he had not been told in advance of the D Day landings) his authority as leader of Free France was unquestioned and he received a tumultuous reception when he walked down the Champs Elysées on 25 August. To the status he enjoyed as liberator was added the authority he possessed as head of a provisional government which contained representatives of all France's political forces, including the

powerful Communist Party."

http://www.answers. com/topic/ charles-de- gaulle

De Gaulle's speech on 25 August 1944

Why do you desire that we hide the emotion which seizes us all, men and women, who are here, at home, in Paris that stood up to liberate itself and that knew how to do this with its own hands? No! We will not hide this deep and sacred emotion. These are minutes which go beyond each of our poor lives. Paris! Outraged Paris! Broken Paris! Martyred Paris! But liberated Paris! Liberated by itself, liberated by its people with the help of the French armies, with the support and the help of all France, of the France that fights, of the only France, of the real France, of the eternal France! Well! Since the enemy which held Paris has capitulated into our hands, France returns to Paris, to her home. She returns bloody, but quite resolute. She returns there enlightened by the immense lesson, but more certain than ever of her duties and of her rights. I speak of her duties first, and I will sum them

all up by saying that for now, it is a matter of the duties of war. The enemy staggers, but he is not vanquished yet. He remains in our territory. It will not even be enough that we have, with the help of our dear and admirable Allies, chased him from our home for us to consider ourselves satisfied after what has happened. We want to enter his territory as is fitting, as victors. This is why the French vanguard has entered Paris with guns blazing. This is why the French grande armée of Italy has landed in Southern France (Operation Dragoon) and is advancing quickly up north through the Rhone valley. This is why our brave and dear Forces of the Interior will arm itself with modern weapons. It is for this revenge, this vengeance and justice, that we will keep fighting until the last day, until the day of total and complete victory. This duty of war, all the men who are here and all those who hear us in France know that it demands national unity. We, who

have lived the greatest hours of our History, we have nothing else to wish than to show ourselves, up to the end, worthy of France. Long live France!"

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_Paris# De_Gaulle. 27s_speech_ .2825_August. 29

 

It seems to me that the time of the Speech by De Gaulle could be worth investgating for seeing if a chart on this day could work.

 

The Three Parties governed from 1944 to 1946, or until the constitution for the Fourth Republic took effect on Oct. 13 1946.

 

Interestingly, for the authentic chart of France I wuold think that the planets Venus (giving enjoyment and arts), Saturn (legacy of ancient heritage) and Sun (the State) would be strong and importantly placed in the chart. A scorpio rising chart on this day, seems to foot the bill, but it is just one possibility. I would rather first look at the chart when De Gaulle made his triumphant speech before exploring other possibilities.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Thor

 

PS The German army was finally pushed out of France on January 25, 1945.

 

"The Battle of the Bulge officially ended when the 501st airborne met the 101st on 25 January 1945...In the wake of the defeat, many experienced German units were left severely depleted of men and equipment, as survivors retreated to the defences of the Siegfried Line."

 

"Operation North Wind (Unternehmen Nordwind) was the last major German offensive of the Second World War on the Western Front. It began on 1 January 1945 in Alsace and Lorraine in north-eastern France, and it ended on 25 January."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hello my dear ,

 

Indeed, since last fall we have been exploring the September 28 1958 date, with 10 pm closing of the polls time (courtesy of Jo Cohen), giving 1° Gemini. However, this chart is not seem entirely convincing.

 

In particular, the 1° Gemini referendum chart has a very weak Venus! Also there is a weak fit for some historical events. I thus began to look elsewhere and came up with the Liberation of Paris as another possible date to consider. The 3:30 pm chart for August 25, 1944, with 14° Scorpio rising seems to have potential.

 

I recall you once said the creation of a country as an independent entity was the most important criteria for the choice of a date for an authentic mundane chart. At the same time, you suggested that constitutional change was less important - the change in the rules by which a given country governs itself. In France, the change from the 4th to the 5th Republic was not really the creation of a new nation, as the name suggests, but more like a change of constitution. Moroever, as the charts for this event did not seem to give a convincing fit, I began to look elsewhere. My reseatch brought me to the rupture in the self-governance of France during the war. At that time, the country was taken over by the German's and the Vichy government of the French they established did not have legitimacy. So, I thought we could explore the Liberation of Paris as a symbolic modern event for the birth of modern France (or

rebirth of France). It now seem, Remi Passinet has arrived at a similar conclusion in private some years ago. In my view, the important thing is simply to explore all possibilities until the right chart is found.

 

Best wishes,

 

Thor

 

 

 

 

 

SIHA <vkchoudhrySAMVA Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 3:45:40 AMRe: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

Hello my dear Thor,

 

Earlier Mr. Jo Cohen had sent a mail as under:

General de Gaulle, who had retired from politics a decade before, placed himself in the midst of the crisis of may 1958, calling on the nation to suspend the government and create a new constitutional system.De Gaulle was carried to power by the inability of the parliament to choose a government, popular protest, and the last parliament of the Fourth Republic voting for their dissolution and the convening of a constitutional convention.The 19th may 1958 he announced for the first time publicly his intention to create a new constitution and to ask french people to vote for it (or against) through a referendum.He negociated this point with President Rene Coty before coming back the 29th may 1958 as President du Conseil - a kind of Prime Minister under the IVth Republic.The 3rd June 1958, french deputies gave him their OK to go for this new constitution.The text was written

during summertime by a cicle of lawyers.The constitution was presented in a formal way in Paris on the 4th september 1958, Place de la République, afternoon time.The referendum that took place on 28th september was favorable. The constitution was promulgated the 4th of october.The publication on Journal Officiel was made on the 5th. Best Wishes Jo Cohen

 

This referendum chart seems to be a representative chart for consideration.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

-

Cosmologer

samva

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:14 AM

France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Dear Jo, Jolastro and other interested list members,

 

 

 

I have been considering a chart for France.

 

 

I have been thinking that if there is a modern event that could be equated with the rebirth of France, it could be associated with the rupture in French self-governance during World War II, when France was under German rule. While a government in exile existed it was more symbolic than actual. So, I began to research the history of this time and found the following:

 

"The liberation of Paris took place on August 25 1944 when general Dietrich von Choltitz accepted the French ultimatum and surrendered to general Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque, commander of the Free French 2nd Armored Division, ignoring orders from Hitler that Paris should be held to the last and to destroy the city."

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_France# Liberation_ of_France

 

De Gaulle’s provisional government takes over liberated France on August 25, 1944

On August 15, U.S. Gen. Jacob Dever's Sixth Army Group, consisting of a combined U.S. and French troops, conducted Operation Dragoon, invading the port city Marseille and marching up the RhĂ´ne River valley. Before Dever's forces met the other Allies, the Germans managed to remove more than half their forces from southern France. Still, on August 19, Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower changed his original plan of stopping at the Seine, and decided to push on toward Germany. Spurred by the advancing Allies, Free French forces rose up in active resistance. By August 25, the U.S. V Corps entered Paris behind the French 2nd Armored Division, and Gen. Charles de Gaulle established his government that day.

http://www.answers. com/topic/ liberation- of-france

　

DeGaulle returns to Paris for a rousing reception

"At the time he returned to France in August 1944 (he had not been told in advance of the D Day landings) his authority as leader of Free France was unquestioned and he received a tumultuous reception when he walked down the Champs Elysées on 25 August. To the status he enjoyed as liberator was added the authority he possessed as head of a provisional government which contained representatives of all France's political forces, including the

powerful Communist Party."

http://www.answers. com/topic/ charles-de- gaulle

De Gaulle's speech on 25 August 1944

Why do you desire that we hide the emotion which seizes us all, men and women, who are here, at home, in Paris that stood up to liberate itself and that knew how to do this with its own hands? No! We will not hide this deep and sacred emotion. These are minutes which go beyond each of our poor lives. Paris! Outraged Paris! Broken Paris! Martyred Paris! But liberated Paris! Liberated by itself, liberated by its people with the help of the French armies, with the support and the help of all France, of the France that fights, of the only France, of the real France, of the eternal France! Well! Since the enemy which held Paris has capitulated into our hands, France returns to Paris, to her home. She returns bloody, but quite resolute. She returns there enlightened by the immense lesson, but more certain than ever of her duties and of her rights. I speak of her duties first, and I will sum them

all up by saying that for now, it is a matter of the duties of war. The enemy staggers, but he is not vanquished yet. He remains in our territory. It will not even be enough that we have, with the help of our dear and admirable Allies, chased him from our home for us to consider ourselves satisfied after what has happened. We want to enter his territory as is fitting, as victors. This is why the French vanguard has entered Paris with guns blazing. This is why the French grande armée of Italy has landed in Southern France (Operation Dragoon) and is advancing quickly up north through the Rhone valley. This is why our brave and dear Forces of the Interior will arm itself with modern weapons. It is for this revenge, this vengeance and justice, that we will keep fighting until the last day, until the day of total and complete victory. This duty of war, all the men who are here and all those who hear us in France know that it demands national unity. We,

who have lived the greatest hours of our History, we have nothing else to wish than to show ourselves, up to the end, worthy of France. Long live France!"

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_Paris# De_Gaulle. 27s_speech_ .2825_August. 29

 

It seems to me that the time of the Speech by De Gaulle could be worth investgating for seeing if a chart on this day could work.

 

The Three Parties governed from 1944 to 1946, or until the constitution for the Fourth Republic took effect on Oct. 13 1946.

 

Interestingly, for the authentic chart of France I wuold think that the planets Venus (giving enjoyment and arts), Saturn (legacy of ancient heritage) and Sun (the State) would be strong and importantly placed in the chart. A scorpio rising chart on this day, seems to foot the bill, but it is just one possibility. I would rather first look at the chart when De Gaulle made his triumphant speech before exploring other possibilities.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Thor

 

PS The German army was finally pushed out of France on January 25, 1945.

 

"The Battle of the Bulge officially ended when the 501st airborne met the 101st on 25 January 1945...In the wake of the defeat, many experienced German units were left severely depleted of men and equipment, as survivors retreated to the defences of the Siegfried Line."

 

"Operation North Wind (Unternehmen Nordwind) was the last major German offensive of the Second World War on the Western Front. It began on 1 January 1945 in Alsace and Lorraine in north-eastern France, and it ended on 25 January."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]



Hello my dear Thor

 

You are right, Rémi is working on a chart related to the Liberation period.

As far as I know, the rectification process was not an easy one.

 

Best Wishes

 

Jo

 

 

-

Cosmologer

SAMVA

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:03 AM

Re: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Hello my dear Jo,

 

Thank you for sharing the information. It is good to know Remi is working on a chart for France based on SA. Of course, we look forward to see his findings. When you say he is "working on a similar chart" I take it to mean a chart similar to the Liberation chart?

 

Best wishes,

 

Thor

 

 

 

Jo COHEN <cohen.jo (AT) free (DOT) fr>SAMVA Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 6:00:19 AMRe: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns Hello my dear Thor,

Hello Jolastro,

Hello dear list members,

 

 

Rémi Panisset is working on a similar chart since 7 years now, and he seems very satisfied with the results. I have studied his chart by myself for few months and I have also a positive feeling about this chart.

 

But, for the moment, I prefer not to give the exact birth data of this chart because it is Rémi's work as he was the first SA astrologer to have find it. I will ask him if he is OK that I give the birth data for France on SAMVA. I know he is still in the final validation process of the chart that was under his examination for seven years.

 

Probably, he would have preferred this process totally completed before presenting this chart. But, Nature has probably other plans....

 

I have just sent him an email. I'll keep you and all the group informed.

 

Best Wishes

 

Jo

 

 

-

Cosmologer

samva

Monday, April 06, 2009 10:44 PM

France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Dear Jo, Jolastro and other interested list members,

 

 

 

I have been considering a chart for France.

 

 

I have been thinking that if there is a modern event that could be equated with the rebirth of France, it could be associated with the rupture in French self-governance during World War II, when France was under German rule. While a government in exile existed it was more symbolic than actual. So, I began to research the history of this time and found the following:

 

"The liberation of Paris took place on August 25 1944 when general Dietrich von Choltitz accepted the French ultimatum and surrendered to general Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque, commander of the Free French 2nd Armored Division, ignoring orders from Hitler that Paris should be held to the last and to destroy the city."

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_France# Liberation_ of_France

 

De Gaulle’s provisional government takes over liberated France on August 25, 1944

On August 15, U.S. Gen. Jacob Dever's Sixth Army Group, consisting of a combined U.S. and French troops, conducted Operation Dragoon, invading the port city Marseille and marching up the Rhône River valley. Before Dever's forces met the other Allies, the Germans managed to remove more than half their forces from southern France. Still, on August 19, Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower changed his original plan of stopping at the Seine, and decided to push on toward Germany. Spurred by the advancing Allies, Free French forces rose up in active resistance. By August 25, the U.S. V Corps entered Paris behind the French 2nd Armored Division, and Gen. Charles de Gaulle established his government that day.

http://www.answers. com/topic/ liberation- of-france

　

DeGaulle returns to Paris for a rousing reception

"At the time he returned to France in August 1944 (he had not been told in advance of the D Day landings) his authority as leader of Free France was unquestioned and he received a tumultuous reception when he walked down the Champs Elysées on 25 August. To the status he enjoyed as liberator was added the authority he possessed as head of a provisional government which contained representatives of all France's political forces, including the powerful Communist Party."

http://www.answers. com/topic/ charles-de- gaulle

De Gaulle's speech on 25 August 1944

Why do you desire that we hide the emotion which seizes us all, men and women, who are here, at home, in Paris that stood up to liberate itself and that knew how to do this with its own hands? No! We will not hide this deep and sacred emotion. These are minutes which go beyond each of our poor lives. Paris! Outraged Paris! Broken Paris! Martyred Paris! But liberated Paris! Liberated by itself, liberated by its people with the help of the French armies, with the support and the help of all France, of the France that fights, of the only France, of the real France, of the eternal France! Well! Since the enemy which held Paris has capitulated into our hands, France returns to Paris, to her home. She returns bloody, but quite resolute. She returns there enlightened by the immense lesson, but more certain than ever of her duties and of her rights. I speak of her duties first, and I will sum them all up by saying that for now, it is a matter of the duties of war. The enemy staggers, but he is not vanquished yet. He remains in our territory. It will not even be enough that we have, with the help of our dear and admirable Allies, chased him from our home for us to consider ourselves satisfied after what has happened. We want to enter his territory as is fitting, as victors. This is why the French vanguard has entered Paris with guns blazing. This is why the French grande armée of Italy has landed in Southern France (Operation Dragoon) and is advancing quickly up north through the Rhone valley. This is why our brave and dear Forces of the Interior will arm itself with modern weapons. It is for this revenge, this vengeance and justice, that we will keep fighting until the last day, until the day of total and complete victory. This duty of war, all the men who are here and all those who hear us in France know that it demands national unity. We, who have lived the greatest hours of our History, we have nothing else to wish than to show ourselves, up to the end, worthy of France. Long live France!"

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_Paris# De_Gaulle. 27s_speech_ .2825_August. 29

 

It seems to me that the time of the Speech by De Gaulle could be worth investgating for seeing if a chart on this day could work.

 

The Three Parties governed from 1944 to 1946, or until the constitution for the Fourth Republic took effect on Oct. 13 1946.

 

Interestingly, for the authentic chart of France I wuold think that the planets Venus (giving enjoyment and arts), Saturn (legacy of ancient heritage) and Sun (the State) would be strong and importantly placed in the chart. A scorpio rising chart on this day, seems to foot the bill, but it is just one possibility. I would rather first look at the chart when De Gaulle made his triumphant speech before exploring other possibilities.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Thor

 

PS The German army was finally pushed out of France on January 25, 1945.

 

"The Battle of the Bulge officially ended when the 501st airborne met the 101st on 25 January 1945...In the wake of the defeat, many experienced German units were left severely depleted of men and equipment, as survivors retreated to the defences of the Siegfried Line."

 

"Operation North Wind (Unternehmen Nordwind) was the last major German offensive of the Second World War on the Western Front. It began on 1 January 1945 in Alsace and Lorraine in north-eastern France, and it ended on 25 January."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hello my dear Jo,

 

The rectification process is never easy. It takes a lot of time. That said, the process gets easier with time and effort as the experience adds up, helping us to spot the salient factors. Ultimately, it is up to the grace of God to grant us the helpful insights and knowledge to make discoveries. I have found that by participating and sharing freely has great advantages. To begin with, the divine knowledge is not something we can consider as a personal property, but the common heritage of mankind. In the spirit of our great and beloved teacher, , I try to share freely for the benefit of others. I believe this approach is the most rewarding of all. Also by discussing openly with likeminded people on an open list like SAMVA, the so-called "network efficiencies" accelerate the development of the knowledge, again to the benefit of one self and all.

 

Best wishes,

 

Thor

 

 

 

Jo COHEN <cohen.joSAMVA Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 7:29:45 AMRe: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 Hello my dear Thor

 

You are right, Rémi is working on a chart related to the Liberation period.

As far as I know, the rectification process was not an easy one.

 

Best Wishes

 

Jo

 

 

-

Cosmologer

SAMVA

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:03 AM

Re: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Hello my dear Jo,

 

Thank you for sharing the information. It is good to know Remi is working on a chart for France based on SA. Of course, we look forward to see his findings. When you say he is "working on a similar chart" I take it to mean a chart similar to the Liberation chart?

 

Best wishes,

 

Thor

 

 

 

Jo COHEN <cohen.jo (AT) free (DOT) fr>SAMVA Tuesday, April 7, 2009 6:00:19 AMRe: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns Hello my dear Thor,

Hello Jolastro,

Hello dear list members,

 

 

Rémi Panisset is working on a similar chart since 7 years now, and he seems very satisfied with the results. I have studied his chart by myself for few months and I have also a positive feeling about this chart.

 

But, for the moment, I prefer not to give the exact birth data of this chart because it is Rémi's work as he was the first SA astrologer to have find it. I will ask him if he is OK that I give the birth data for France on SAMVA. I know he is still in the final validation process of the chart that was under his examination for seven years.

 

Probably, he would have preferred this process totally completed before presenting this chart. But, Nature has probably other plans....

 

I have just sent him an email. I'll keep you and all the group informed.

 

Best Wishes

 

Jo

 

 

-

Cosmologer

samva

Monday, April 06, 2009 10:44 PM

France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Dear Jo, Jolastro and other interested list members,

 

 

 

I have been considering a chart for France.

 

 

I have been thinking that if there is a modern event that could be equated with the rebirth of France, it could be associated with the rupture in French self-governance during World War II, when France was under German rule. While a government in exile existed it was more symbolic than actual. So, I began to research the history of this time and found the following:

 

"The liberation of Paris took place on August 25 1944 when general Dietrich von Choltitz accepted the French ultimatum and surrendered to general Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque, commander of the Free French 2nd Armored Division, ignoring orders from Hitler that Paris should be held to the last and to destroy the city."

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_France# Liberation_ of_France

 

De Gaulle’s provisional government takes over liberated France on August 25, 1944

On August 15, U.S. Gen. Jacob Dever's Sixth Army Group, consisting of a combined U.S. and French troops, conducted Operation Dragoon, invading the port city Marseille and marching up the Rhône River valley. Before Dever's forces met the other Allies, the Germans managed to remove more than half their forces from southern France. Still, on August 19, Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower changed his original plan of stopping at the Seine, and decided to push on toward Germany. Spurred by the advancing Allies, Free French forces rose up in active resistance. By August 25, the U.S. V Corps entered Paris behind the French 2nd Armored Division, and Gen. Charles de Gaulle established his government that day.

http://www.answers. com/topic/ liberation- of-france

　

DeGaulle returns to Paris for a rousing reception

"At the time he returned to France in August 1944 (he had not been told in advance of the D Day landings) his authority as leader of Free France was unquestioned and he received a tumultuous reception when he walked down the Champs Elysées on 25 August. To the status he enjoyed as liberator was added the authority he possessed as head of a provisional government which contained representatives of all France's political forces, including the

powerful Communist Party."

http://www.answers. com/topic/ charles-de- gaulle

De Gaulle's speech on 25 August 1944

Why do you desire that we hide the emotion which seizes us all, men and women, who are here, at home, in Paris that stood up to liberate itself and that knew how to do this with its own hands? No! We will not hide this deep and sacred emotion. These are minutes which go beyond each of our poor lives. Paris! Outraged Paris! Broken Paris! Martyred Paris! But liberated Paris! Liberated by itself, liberated by its people with the help of the French armies, with the support and the help of all France, of the France that fights, of the only France, of the real France, of the eternal France! Well! Since the enemy which held Paris has capitulated into our hands, France returns to Paris, to her home. She returns bloody, but quite resolute. She returns there enlightened by the immense lesson, but more certain than ever of her duties and of her rights. I speak of her duties first, and I will sum them

all up by saying that for now, it is a matter of the duties of war. The enemy staggers, but he is not vanquished yet. He remains in our territory. It will not even be enough that we have, with the help of our dear and admirable Allies, chased him from our home for us to consider ourselves satisfied after what has happened. We want to enter his territory as is fitting, as victors. This is why the French vanguard has entered Paris with guns blazing. This is why the French grande armée of Italy has landed in Southern France (Operation Dragoon) and is advancing quickly up north through the Rhone valley. This is why our brave and dear Forces of the Interior will arm itself with modern weapons. It is for this revenge, this vengeance and justice, that we will keep fighting until the last day, until the day of total and complete victory. This duty of war, all the men who are here and all those who hear us in France know that it demands national unity. We, who

have lived the greatest hours of our History, we have nothing else to wish than to show ourselves, up to the end, worthy of France. Long live France!"

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_Paris# De_Gaulle. 27s_speech_ .2825_August. 29

 

It seems to me that the time of the Speech by De Gaulle could be worth investgating for seeing if a chart on this day could work.

 

The Three Parties governed from 1944 to 1946, or until the constitution for the Fourth Republic took effect on Oct. 13 1946.

 

Interestingly, for the authentic chart of France I wuold think that the planets Venus (giving enjoyment and arts), Saturn (legacy of ancient heritage) and Sun (the State) would be strong and importantly placed in the chart. A scorpio rising chart on this day, seems to foot the bill, but it is just one possibility. I would rather first look at the chart when De Gaulle made his triumphant speech before exploring other possibilities.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Thor

 

PS The German army was finally pushed out of France on January 25, 1945.

 

"The Battle of the Bulge officially ended when the 501st airborne met the 101st on 25 January 1945...In the wake of the defeat, many experienced German units were left severely depleted of men and equipment, as survivors retreated to the defences of the Siegfried Line."

 

"Operation North Wind (Unternehmen Nordwind) was the last major German offensive of the Second World War on the Western Front. It began on 1 January 1945 in Alsace and Lorraine in north-eastern France, and it ended on 25 January."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hello my dear Thor,

 

We may continue to explore and we may await the results of the findings of dear Mr. Remi Panniset.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

-

Cosmologer

SAMVA

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:45 PM

Re: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Hello my dear ,

 

Indeed, since last fall we have been exploring the September 28 1958 date, with 10 pm closing of the polls time (courtesy of Jo Cohen), giving 1° Gemini. However, this chart is not seem entirely convincing.

 

In particular, the 1° Gemini referendum chart has a very weak Venus! Also there is a weak fit for some historical events. I thus began to look elsewhere and came up with the Liberation of Paris as another possible date to consider. The 3:30 pm chart for August 25, 1944, with 14° Scorpio rising seems to have potential.

 

I recall you once said the creation of a country as an independent entity was the most important criteria for the choice of a date for an authentic mundane chart. At the same time, you suggested that constitutional change was less important - the change in the rules by which a given country governs itself. In France, the change from the 4th to the 5th Republic was not really the creation of a new nation, as the name suggests, but more like a change of constitution. Moroever, as the charts for this event did not seem to give a convincing fit, I began to look elsewhere. My reseatch brought me to the rupture in the self-governance of France during the war. At that time, the country was taken over by the German's and the Vichy government of the French they established did not have legitimacy. So, I thought we could explore the Liberation of Paris as a symbolic modern event for the birth of modern France (or rebirth of France). It now seem, Remi Passinet has arrived at a similar conclusion in private some years ago. In my view, the important thing is simply to explore all possibilities until the right chart is found.

 

Best wishes,

 

Thor

 

 

 

 

 

SIHA <vkchoudhry >SAMVA Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 3:45:40 AMRe: France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

Hello my dear Thor,

 

Earlier Mr. Jo Cohen had sent a mail as under:

General de Gaulle, who had retired from politics a decade before, placed himself in the midst of the crisis of may 1958, calling on the nation to suspend the government and create a new constitutional system.De Gaulle was carried to power by the inability of the parliament to choose a government, popular protest, and the last parliament of the Fourth Republic voting for their dissolution and the convening of a constitutional convention.The 19th may 1958 he announced for the first time publicly his intention to create a new constitution and to ask french people to vote for it (or against) through a referendum.He negociated this point with President Rene Coty before coming back the 29th may 1958 as President du Conseil - a kind of Prime Minister under the IVth Republic.The 3rd June 1958, french deputies gave him their OK to go for this new constitution.The text was written during summertime by a cicle of lawyers.The constitution was presented in a formal way in Paris on the 4th september 1958, Place de la République, afternoon time.The referendum that took place on 28th september was favorable. The constitution was promulgated the 4th of october.The publication on Journal Officiel was made on the 5th. Best Wishes Jo Cohen

 

This referendum chart seems to be a representative chart for consideration.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

-

Cosmologer

samva

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:14 AM

France: liberation of Paris/De Gaulle returns

 

 

 

 

Dear Jo, Jolastro and other interested list members,

 

 

 

I have been considering a chart for France.

 

 

I have been thinking that if there is a modern event that could be equated with the rebirth of France, it could be associated with the rupture in French self-governance during World War II, when France was under German rule. While a government in exile existed it was more symbolic than actual. So, I began to research the history of this time and found the following:

 

"The liberation of Paris took place on August 25 1944 when general Dietrich von Choltitz accepted the French ultimatum and surrendered to general Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque, commander of the Free French 2nd Armored Division, ignoring orders from Hitler that Paris should be held to the last and to destroy the city."

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_France# Liberation_ of_France

 

De Gaulle’s provisional government takes over liberated France on August 25, 1944

On August 15, U.S. Gen. Jacob Dever's Sixth Army Group, consisting of a combined U.S. and French troops, conducted Operation Dragoon, invading the port city Marseille and marching up the RhĂ´ne River valley. Before Dever's forces met the other Allies, the Germans managed to remove more than half their forces from southern France. Still, on August 19, Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower changed his original plan of stopping at the Seine, and decided to push on toward Germany. Spurred by the advancing Allies, Free French forces rose up in active resistance. By August 25, the U.S. V Corps entered Paris behind the French 2nd Armored Division, and Gen. Charles de Gaulle established his government that day.

http://www.answers. com/topic/ liberation- of-france

　

DeGaulle returns to Paris for a rousing reception

"At the time he returned to France in August 1944 (he had not been told in advance of the D Day landings) his authority as leader of Free France was unquestioned and he received a tumultuous reception when he walked down the Champs Elysées on 25 August. To the status he enjoyed as liberator was added the authority he possessed as head of a provisional government which contained representatives of all France's political forces, including the powerful Communist Party."

http://www.answers. com/topic/ charles-de- gaulle

De Gaulle's speech on 25 August 1944

Why do you desire that we hide the emotion which seizes us all, men and women, who are here, at home, in Paris that stood up to liberate itself and that knew how to do this with its own hands? No! We will not hide this deep and sacred emotion. These are minutes which go beyond each of our poor lives. Paris! Outraged Paris! Broken Paris! Martyred Paris! But liberated Paris! Liberated by itself, liberated by its people with the help of the French armies, with the support and the help of all France, of the France that fights, of the only France, of the real France, of the eternal France! Well! Since the enemy which held Paris has capitulated into our hands, France returns to Paris, to her home. She returns bloody, but quite resolute. She returns there enlightened by the immense lesson, but more certain than ever of her duties and of her rights. I speak of her duties first, and I will sum them all up by saying that for now, it is a matter of the duties of war. The enemy staggers, but he is not vanquished yet. He remains in our territory. It will not even be enough that we have, with the help of our dear and admirable Allies, chased him from our home for us to consider ourselves satisfied after what has happened. We want to enter his territory as is fitting, as victors. This is why the French vanguard has entered Paris with guns blazing. This is why the French grande armée of Italy has landed in Southern France (Operation Dragoon) and is advancing quickly up north through the Rhone valley. This is why our brave and dear Forces of the Interior will arm itself with modern weapons. It is for this revenge, this vengeance and justice, that we will keep fighting until the last day, until the day of total and complete victory. This duty of war, all the men who are here and all those who hear us in France know that it demands national unity. We, who have lived the greatest hours of our History, we have nothing else to wish than to show ourselves, up to the end, worthy of France. Long live France!"

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Liberation_ of_Paris# De_Gaulle. 27s_speech_ .2825_August. 29

 

It seems to me that the time of the Speech by De Gaulle could be worth investgating for seeing if a chart on this day could work.

 

The Three Parties governed from 1944 to 1946, or until the constitution for the Fourth Republic took effect on Oct. 13 1946.

 

Interestingly, for the authentic chart of France I wuold think that the planets Venus (giving enjoyment and arts), Saturn (legacy of ancient heritage) and Sun (the State) would be strong and importantly placed in the chart. A scorpio rising chart on this day, seems to foot the bill, but it is just one possibility. I would rather first look at the chart when De Gaulle made his triumphant speech before exploring other possibilities.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Thor

 

PS The German army was finally pushed out of France on January 25, 1945.

 

"The Battle of the Bulge officially ended when the 501st airborne met the 101st on 25 January 1945...In the wake of the defeat, many experienced German units were left severely depleted of men and equipment, as survivors retreated to the defences of the Siegfried Line."

 

"Operation North Wind (Unternehmen Nordwind) was the last major German offensive of the Second World War on the Western Front. It began on 1 January 1945 in Alsace and Lorraine in north-eastern France, and it ended on 25 January."