Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 Dear Sanjayji, I have already sent you a mail in response to your other post on Varahamihira. I append it below for ready reference.Your valued comments would be appreciated. It shows your ability to respect other's views. About what Parashara says, I think it is a matter of interpretation and though I might be wrong,I give below my reasons for my belief that even Parashara did not mean that Bhava Lagna is something different from Natal Lagna. Correct me if my reasoning is way off the mark. Now the reason that I have my own opinion needs to be explained. Besides what B. Suryanarayana Rao says in his commentary on Jainini Sutras, the reason of my belief is based on a very simple question. Parashara has given detailed calculations of all various Lagnas and not Natal Lagna. Think why, unless by Bhava lagna he meant Natal Lagna. About elliptical and round distribution of Rasis,another reason advanced to argue that Bhava Lagna is diferent from Natal Lagna read Shloka5 Chapter 3 BPHS. Where does the Sage state that the proportions of divisions ( degrees of Rasis) can vary? They should if Spherical and Eliptical Kakshas are involved as argued. He,however, indicates that Rasi divisions should be calculated as applicable to the place for which the duration is to be calculated at Shloka 9. Now in calculation of Bhava lagna CH5 shloka 2 and 3 he does not say that 5 Ghatis/rasi would be applicable irrespective of place involved. Therefore, though the sage states that 5 ghaties per Rasi are to be taken in case of Bhava lagna, Hora lagna and Ghati lagna at shloka 1 to 9 Chapter 5 , it is obvious the application of place(Lattitude) from where calculations are being done by Drikganita, as told by him in shloka 8 Ch.3, is necessary to arrive at the Bhava lagna (As also for Hora and Ghatika Lagna).As per my limited knowledge, shashtras are to be read in their entirety and not by interpreting shlokas in isolation. I have,also, received various other mails explaining how Natal lagna is different from Bhava lagna by taking 5 Ghatis as a standard measure for movement of rasi. But the calculations have not applied the principle calculations of Rasi duration in their entirety, as given by the Sage.If this is applied then both the lagnas would be identical. I am aware that as the heading used in chapter 5 is Special ascendants, it is assumed that these ascendants have nothing to do with Natal Lagna.Though not a Sanskrita Pandita,I think VisheshaLagnaadhyaH, could also mean Adhyaya about specific Lagnas as against special lagnas,as translated. Shloka 1 of the chapter does not talk about Vishesha Lagnas but talks about explaining Lagnas called as Bhava-Hora and Ghati separately. Anyway, I could go on giving various reasons like why then, when the sage talks about Tanu Bhava Phala etc.,Bhava lagna (According fixed 5 ghati interval) instead of Natal lagna (According 5 Ghati interval with place factored in) should not be considered if these two are indeed different Lagnas and so on. However this would serve no purpose. However I hold my position,as my understanding of interpretation of Shashtra is different from others and it is too late at this stage of life to change that, neither is there appears to be any reason. I trust you will go through my line of thinking carefully and let me know wether or not it is based on sound logic,even if it might be at variance with yours as you have indicated by a delicately placed smiley. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sanjay Rath [srath]Friday, September 26, 2003 2:19 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ? Om Srim Dhlim Jyotir-Brahmaaya Namah Dear Chandrasekhar The distortion increases as we go to the northern latitudes. Perhaps that is why there is such a big gap between the BL and Lagna. The BL is separate and different from Lagna as it is mentioned under the chapter on special ascendants. This is also different from the chalita bhava chakra where Parasara advises 15 degrees on either side of the lagna sphuta to get the bhava sandhi's. What to do with it is another issue altogether. With Best Regards he timeSanjay Rath ---- varahamihira Thursday, September 25, 2003 04:28:42 PM varahamihira RE: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ? Dear Brendan, How do you then explain Taurus as Lagna and Cancer as BL in case of Anna ? Regards, Chandrashekhar. Bpfeeley [bpfeeley]Thursday, September 25, 2003 8:44 AMvarahamihira Subject: Re: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ?In a message dated 9/24/2003 3:08:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, boxdel writes:Dear Chandrashekhar,I am now quoting Parasara. Chapter 5, Sloka 2-3:"BHAVA LAGNA: From Sunrise to the time of birth, every 5 ghatis (or 120 minutes) constitute one BL. Divide the time of birth (in ghatis, vighatis, etc) from Sun-rise by 5 and add the quotient to the Sun's longitude as at Sun rise."It is just as Sanjay and Narasimha already stated. Sanjay said, BL is based on the circle and the lagna on the ellipse and this makes sense.My lagna is 1 Sc 45 and my BL is 21 Sc 02. I was born in a far northern latitude, where the distortion is even greater.Regards,Brendan Dear Brendan,I would suggest you read commentary on Jaimini Sutras by B. Suryanarayanrao, where he clearly states"Bhava Lagna-used in Jaimini-means the ordinary Lagna as is mentioned in the ordinary bookson Astrology. The sign that rises at birth on any particular day."Your comments on above are solicited. As to BL calculations in JHL, I would not like to comment as I am not aware what parameters are used in the calculations therein.Regards,Chandrashekhar.|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 Dear Sanjayji, It shows your ability to respect other's views. About what Parashara says, I think it is a matter of interpretation and though I might be wrong,I give below my reasons for my belief that even Parashara did not mean that Bhava Lagna is something different from Natal Lagna. Correct me if my reasoning is way off the mark. Now the reason that I have my own opinion needs to be explained. Besides what B. Suryanarayana Rao says in his commentary on Jainini Sutras, the reason of my belief is based on a very simple question. Parashara has given detailed calculations of all various Lagnas and not Natal Lagna. Think why, unless by Bhava lagna he meant Natal Lagna. About elliptical and round distribution of Rasis,another reason advanced to argue that Bhava Lagna is diferent from Natal Lagna read Shloka5 Chapter 3 BPHS. Where does the Sage state that the proportions of divisions ( degrees of Rasis) can vary? They should if Spherical and Eliptical Kakshas are involved as argued. He,however, indicates that Rasi divisions should be calculated as applicable to the place for which the duration is to be calculated at Shloka 9. Now in calculation of Bhava lagna CH5 shloka 2 and 3 he does not say that 5 Ghatis/rasi would be applicable irrespective of place involved. Therefore, though the sage states that 5 ghaties per Rasi are to be taken in case of Bhava lagna, Hora lagna and Ghati lagna at shloka 1 to 9 Chapter 5 , it is obvious the application of place(Lattitude) from where calculations are being done by Drikganita, as told by him in shloka 8 Ch.3, is necessary to arrive at the Bhava lagna (As also for Hora and Ghatika Lagna).As per my limited knowledge, shashtras are to be read in their entirety and not by interpreting shlokas in isolation. I have,also, received various other mails explaining how Natal lagna is different from Bhava lagna by taking 5 Ghatis as a standard measure for movement of rasi. But the calculations have not applied the principle calculations of Rasi duration in their entirety, as given by the Sage.If this is applied then both the lagnas would be identical. I am aware that as the heading used in chapter 5 is Special ascendants, it is assumed that these ascendants have nothing to do with Natal Lagna.Though not a Sanskrita Pandita,I think VisheshaLagnaadhyaH, could also mean Adhyaya about specific Lagnas as against special lagnas,as translated. Shloka 1 of the chapter does not talk about Vishesha Lagnas but talks about explaining Lagnas called as Bhava-Hora and Ghati separately. Anyway, I could go on giving various reasons like why then, when the sage talks about Tanu Bhava Phala etc.,Bhava lagna (According fixed 5 ghati interval) instead of Natal lagna (According 5 Ghati interval with place factored in) should not be considered if these two are indeed different Lagnas and so on. However this would serve no purpose. However I hold my position,as my understanding of interpretation of Shashtra is different from others and it is too late at this stage of life to change that, neither is there appears to be any reason. I trust you will go through my line of thinking carefully and let me know wether or not it is based on sound logic,even if it might be at variance with yours as you have indicated by a delicately placed smiley. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sanjay Rath [srath]Friday, September 26, 2003 5:32 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ? Om Srim Dhlim Jyotir-Brahmaaya Namah Dear Chandrasekharji A bit difficult for me to accept that statement given the clear teachings of Parasara and my understanding of the Jaimini Sutras are different. You have a deep reading of the various books no doubt. With Best Regards Sanjay Rath ---- varahamihira Thursday, September 25, 2003 04:28:41 PM varahamihira RE: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ? Dear Sanjayji, While I accept the analogy as this is the right explaination of the concept of 5 Ghatis representing a Bhava per BPHS, what is your opinion on the remarks of B.Suryanarayan Rao in his commentary on Jamini Sutras that when Jaimini says Bhava Lagna he means natal Lagna only.Do you think he is wrong? Regards, Chandrahekhar. Sanjay Rath [srath]Wednesday, September 24, 2003 6:37 PMvarahamihira Subject: Re: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ? Om Srim Dhlim Jyotir-Brahmaaya Namah Dear Anna Bhava Lagna or BL is based on the circle equidistant house zodiac i.e. One bhava = 2 hours exact formula. However, the Lagna is different as it is based on the ellipse. Brendan is right and this is a very basic concept. With Best Regards Sanjay Rath ---- varahamihira Tuesday, September 23, 2003 05:21:21 PM varahamihira Re: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ? Dear Chandrashekhar and Brendan,My programs give Bhava L. Taurus, consistently, and Cn Lagna-that's obviously what Brendan was referring to. I am wondering now why should any calculation be done if Bhava L=Lagna? As it seems to be the case in what Chandrashekhar is referring to. I would also appreciate if you and Brendan would give more details on Bhava L area of influence and its subtleties /one different from Lagna/And if you don't mind my asking Chandrashekhar, what is Ganita part of astrology?And sure, nobody can know everything.Warmest wishes,Annavarahamihira@gro ups.com, "Chandrashekhar Sharma" <boxdel> wrote:> Dear Brendan,> I think you are reffering to Chapter 5 shloka 2 and 3.Kindly try to> calculate bhava lagna as given therein.As I have always said I am not very> good at Ganita part of astrology, but I am certain you will get what is> known as Ascendant or Lagna only. Use Nirayana spashta Sun rising degrees.> Correct me if I am wrong as it will add to my knowledge.> Regards,> Chandrashekhar.> > Bpfeeley@A... [bpfeeley@A...]> Tuesday, September 23, 2003 3:37 AM> varahamihira > Re: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ?> > > In a message dated 9/22/2003 4:05:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,> boxdel writes:> > Dear Chandrashekar & Rao,> > See BPHS, Ch 6 for GL, BL and HL. The calculation is based on Udaya lagna,> the Sun's position at sunrise. It is not the same as lagna and is not the> same as the lagna in Bhava Chalit chakra.> > The BL moves at the same speed as the lagna but is not the same. It moves> through 12 signs or 12 bhavas in 24 hours and hence its name. The HL moves> twice as fast as the BL, and the GL moves 2.5 times faster than the HL.> > This is what I understand.> > Regards,> Brendan> > > Dear Brendan/Rao,> Bhava lagna, logically should be same as Lagna.Bhava and sthana(House)> are used interchaneably in standard texts.The term is also used in case of> Bhavachalit Kundali, where 15degrees either of riising sign degree is taken> to be one Bhava.That this (Bhavachalita) is not the standard Vedic method,> is my personal opinion.> Regards,> Chandrashekhar.> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 Dear Brendan, You might also like to read my reply to Rampriya to understand the logic behind what I have stated. I would appreciate your comments. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Bpfeeley [bpfeeley]Friday, September 26, 2003 3:15 AMvarahamihira Subject: Re: |Sri Varaha| Bhava Lagna ?In a message dated 9/25/2003 4:33:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, boxdel writes:Namaste Chandrashekhar,I don't have the data for Anna! Anna, can you share your data or send it to me privately. If she was born in a northern latitude and a sign of slow ascention was rising it might explain.Regards,Brendan Dear Brendan,How do you then explain Taurus as Lagna and Cancer as BL in case of Anna ?Regards,Chandrashekhar.|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 In a message dated 9/26/2003 4:43:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, boxdel writes: Chandrashekhar, I read your note to Sanjay and you expressed yourself clearly in that. I will be curious to see Sanjay's response. Regards, Brendan Dear Brendan, You might also like to read my reply to Rampriya to understand the logic behind what I have stated. I would appreciate your comments. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Dear Brendan, I've seen your the same day you wrote but waited for Zoran's rectification before I give you my data. Two frienda /jyotishi, of different school of Jy. thoughts/ separetly gave the same time for my chart. Time: 3:47pm CET Cn Lagna in both Rashi and Navamsa.BL Taurus, PP Taurus, HL Li, GL Sc- Birth Certificate says 4:05pm, my mother says later!! Not reliable. With outer planets /Uranus/, and the time of my immigration, the event which had 'shaken me the most in my life, I also would think that rect. may be accurate. I haven't learned rectification, although always wanted to. Zoran must be busy now, and I don't want to not to respond to your Q, so here it is. Name at Birth Snezana January 23, 1952 Place: Nish Country: SERBIA Time Zone:-1 /Time: 1:28 I used instead of -1, so was I thought in western astrology, and in fact that may explain the difference?/ One more word on PPL: PL6 says PPL is in Aries, as per Sanjay's suggested method Ta- neither in trine with L. or Moon, Sun is, so, a bird here, Sorry for the delay! Warmest wishes, Anna varahamihira , Bpfeeley@A... wrote: > In a message dated 9/25/2003 4:33:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > boxdel writes: > > Namaste Chandrashekhar, > > I don't have the data for Anna! Anna, can you share your data or send it to > me privately. If she was born in a northern latitude and a sign of slow > ascention was rising it might explain. > > Regards, > Brendan > > > Dear Brendan, > > How do you then explain Taurus as Lagna and Cancer as BL in case of Anna ? > > Regards, > > Chandrashekhar. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2003 Report Share Posted September 28, 2003 In a message dated 9/27/2003 3:02:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jyotish108 writes: Anna, Thanks for the data. Will peek. Regards, Brendan Dear Brendan, I've seen your the same day you wrote but waited for Zoran's rectification before I give you my data. Two frienda /jyotishi, of different school of Jy. thoughts/ separetly gave the same time for my chart. Time: 3:47pm CET Cn Lagna in both Rashi and Navamsa.BL Taurus, PP Taurus, HL Li, GL Sc- Birth Certificate says 4:05pm, my mother says later!! Not reliable. With outer planets /Uranus/, and the time of my immigration, the event which had 'shaken me the most in my life, I also would think that rect. may be accurate. I haven't learned rectification, although always wanted to. Zoran must be busy now, and I don't want to not to respond to your Q, so here it is. Name at Birth Snezana January 23, 1952 Place: Nish Country: SERBIA Time Zone:-1 /Time: 1:28 I used instead of -1, so was I thought in western astrology, and in fact that may explain the difference?/ One more word on PPL: PL6 says PPL is in Aries, as per Sanjay's suggested method Ta- neither in trine with L. or Moon, Sun is, so, a bird here, Sorry for the delay! Warmest wishes, Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 || Jaya Jagannath || Dear Chandrashekhar, What I have shared is based on the teachings from my guru. Now I cannot comment on B. Suryanarayana Rao on the topic now as I have to do a comparative analysis of various texts before that. As per your request I am giving the calculation of the Lagna as per actual ascension of the sign. The ascension time at the latitude 43N19, where Anna is born, is as follows: Aries 1h 17m 39s Taurus 1h 45m 04s Gemini 2h 18m 07s Cancer 2h 35m 01s Leo 2h 35m 47s Virgo 2h 35m 03s Libra 2h 36m 24s Scorpio 2h 28m 33s Sagittarius 2h 00m 45s Capricorn 1h 28m 17s Aquarius 1h 09m 22s Pisces 1h 09m 58s ---------------- Total 24h 00m 00s ---------------- Time elapsed after sunrise is 9 hrs. Counting from Capricorn where Sun was placed at Sunrise, we get the following Lagna: Duration of Capricorn is 1 hr 28m 17s (1.4713889). And at Sunrise Sun is at longitude 8 Cp 59 (8.983). For Lagna to travel from Solar longitude to end of the sign, time it would take would be (30-8.983) * 1.4713889/30 = 1.03081 = 1h 1m 51s Now lets go on calculating the lagna in the traditional way with step deduction. 09:00:00 - 01:01:51 Capricorn Bal 07:58:09 - 01:09:22 Aquarius Bal 06:48:47 - 01:09:58 Pisces Bal 05:38:49 - 01:17:39 Aries Bal 04:21:10 - 01:45:04 Taurus Bal 02:36:06 - 02:18:07 Gemini Bal 00:17:59 Balance Remaining in Cancer The Total Duration of Cancer is 2hr 35min 01sec (2.58361) and the Lagna has risen for the duration 17m 59sec. The degree risen would be Degree of Lagna = (30/ 2.58361)*(17.983/60) = 3.48027 = 3d 28m Cancer. This is the Lagna, when we take Lagna calculation with center of Sun or Sunrise with Center of Sun rising. If we take apparent rise of tip as the sunrise which happens approx 4 min before the rise of center of Sun, we can advance the Lagna by 4 min. In 4 min Lagna would rise (30/2.58361)*(4/60) = 0d 46 min = 4d 14m in Cancer. Hope, this shows that actual Lagna does not move with a steady rate of 1 sign in 2hrs. Only Bhava lagna can move with that rate. Best Wishes Sarajit Chandrashekhar Sharma [boxdel] Friday, September 26, 2003 4:28 AM varahamihira RE: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? Dear Sarajit, You have not given your opinion on B.Suryanarayan Rao,s commentary on Jaimini. Again why not calculate Lagna too which is also calculated mathematically, as you pointed out. This would rule out presumptions, as you have adviced. If I remember right the original question did not limit BL to BPHS only. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarajit Poddar [sarajit] Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:22 AM varahamihira RE: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? || Jaya Jagannath || Dear Chandrashekhar, You said… Again as Anna said that in her case she gets Taurus as BL and Cancer as Natal Lagna, logic dictates that this is not possible even if we take the difference in linear and nonlinear Rasi movements through the zodiac at Horizon. Lets calculate the Bhava Lagna for the chart and see where is comes. Sun’s Longitude at Sunrise at Birth = 8 Cp 59 = 9s 8:59 Time Elapsed after Sunrise = 16:00 – 7:00 = 9 hrs Move Lagna @ 2 hrs per Rasi we arrive at 4sign 15deg (4s 15:00) signs from solar longitude. Adding this to Sun’s longitude we get, 1s 23d 59m. If we start the Lagna from apparent rise of tip of the sun, which happens 4 min before the actual rise of the center, we have to move the lagna 4m back, which brings the BL to 1s 23d 55m and this is what JHORA shows exactly. I do not think there should be any confusion with the Lagna which is in Cancer. So I am not calculating it mathematically. Now what you say about the calculation! Is it possible or not to have BL and Lagna in Ta and Cn respectively? Mathematics doesn’t defy logic…. Presumptions does... :-) Now why the difference between the two so high! I have given the answer in my last mail on the topic… Best Wishes Sarajit Chandrashekhar Sharma [boxdel] Thursday, September 25, 2003 4:10 AM varahamihira RE: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? Dear Narasimharaoji, I was not doubting your knowledge nor your skill in Ganita.I was just pointing out that I am not aware of the parameters used in JHL. I have already said that I am no an expert in Ganita Skandha. Again as Anna said that in her case she gets Taurus as BL and Cancer as Natal Lagna, logic dictates that this is not possible even if we take the difference in linear and nonlinear Rasi movements through the zodiac at Horizon. Another reason that I thought Bhava lagna is Natal lagna is that Parashara does not mention how to calculate Natal Lagna, nor does he elaborate on use of Bhava lagna. This surely is not an oversight on the part of the Great Sage. It therefore appealed to my Viveka that the Sage meant Natal Lagna by the term Bhava Lagna.I still hold that position. You have also,rightly, pointed out that sun rise is not defined by the Sage and that you have given three options for sunrise. Saantanam in his commentary on BPHS says that the 4 charts drawn for HL, GL,BL and Natal Lagna are to be assessed to find out results of Bhavas by referring to distance in degrees from Bhava sphuta. He says this is per special hints in Chaukhamba Benares edition. This is why in my original post I had said that it might be related to Bhavachalit Chart, which, I personally feel, has arisen out of Greek influence and not part of Arsha system followed in Vedic astrology. If you feel there is a flaw in my logic feel free to correct me as I am still learning the intricacies of Vedic astrology whichis clouded by too many editions and apabhransha of shlokas. With Regards, Chandrashekhar. pvr108 [pvr] Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:50 AM varahamihira |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? Namaste Chandrashekhar ji, Sri B.Suryanarain Rao is a great scholar without any doubt. Let us forget Jaimini and look at just Parasara. In BPHS, Parasara mentions in an early chapter (titled Visesha lagnas or special ascendants) how to calculate bhava lagna (BL), hora lagna (HL) and ghati[ka] lagna (GL). May be someone can quote the verses. The verses of Parasara are clear and have no scope for any kind of ambiguity. BL, HL and GL conjoin Sun at sunrise and move at the linear rates of 1 sign, 2 signs and 5 signs per 2 hours (respectively). While these lagnas have a linear motion, the normal lagna can have a non-linear motion. JHora and JHoraLite softwares follow Parasara's teaching. However, it is not clear what Parasara meant by sunrise. JHora gives 3 options for sunrise and scholars can experiment. May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha > Dear Brendan, > I would suggest you read commentary on Jaimini Sutras by B. Suryanarayanrao, > where he clearly states > " Bhava Lagna-used in Jaimini-means the ordinary Lagna as is mentioned in the > ordinary books > on Astrology. The sign that rises at birth on any particular day. " > Your comments on above are solicited. As to BL calculations in JHL, I would > not like to comment as I am not aware what parameters are used in the > calculations therein. > Regards, > Chandrashekhar. |Om Tat Sat| http://www.varahamihira Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. |Om Tat Sat| http://www.varahamihira Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. |Om Tat Sat| http://www.varahamihira Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. |Om Tat Sat| http://www.varahamihira Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Dear Sarajit, I think you must have read my post on Varaha list by now. I do not dispute your calculations. However, does this not differ from the literal translation of BPHS text when the sage says that the Rasis arising are divided in to 12 parts of the Zodiac, when talking about Lagna and rasis in Chapter 3 shloka 4 to 6? I am aware why this happens, the reason being the lattitude. But the sage does not say that lattitude position should not be applied to the Bhava,Ghati and Hora lagna. And this is precisely the point I am trying to raise. You may also like to find out why the Bhava lagna should be Taurus. As per interpretation of Bhava lagna being 5 ghatis fied, with Sun rising in Capricorn and birth 9 hr.s after Sun rise Taurus can not be the Bhava lagna ( It would be 51sec. Gemini) as indicated by Anna. How do you explain this anamoly? Should we assume that the shlokas on Bhava,Ghati, Hora Chapter 5 shloka 1 to 9 are to be applied literally ( though there is no logical reason to do that) as is indicated in various responses to this thread, all natives on a particular longitude born at one time would have same Bhava, Hora and Ghati lagna. One can say what is the harm if this happens. Now look at it this way, the sage enjoins one to draw charts with these various Lagnas and then depending on strengths of bhavas and Planets one should predict.Now 3 out of 4 lagnas( if we treat Bhava lagna as different from Rasi Lagna) would be identical for the natives and so results of bhavaas and planets for all would be similar. I am certain that on reflection it would be apparent this would be at variance with the basic premise of Jyotish. Of course as I said from the beginning this is my opinion and others are free to disagree. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarajit Poddar [sarajit]Monday, September 29, 2003 4:32 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? || Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Chandrashekhar, What I have shared is based on the teachings from my guru. Now I cannot comment on B. Suryanarayana Rao on the topic now as I have to do a comparative analysis of various texts before that. As per your request I am giving the calculation of the Lagna as per actual ascension of the sign. The ascension time at the latitude 43N19, where Anna is born, is as follows: Aries 1h 17m 39s Taurus 1h 45m 04s Gemini 2h 18m 07s Cancer 2h 35m 01s Leo 2h 35m 47s Virgo 2h 35m 03s Libra 2h 36m 24s Scorpio 2h 28m 33s Sagittarius 2h 00m 45s Capricorn 1h 28m 17s Aquarius 1h 09m 22s Pisces 1h 09m 58s ---------------- Total 24h 00m 00s ---------------- Time elapsed after sunrise is 9 hrs. Counting from Capricorn where Sun was placed at Sunrise, we get the following Lagna: Duration of Capricorn is 1 hr 28m 17s (1.4713889). And at Sunrise Sun is at longitude 8 Cp 59 (8.983). For Lagna to travel from Solar longitude to end of the sign, time it would take would be (30-8.983) * 1.4713889/30 = 1.03081 = 1h 1m 51s Now lets go on calculating the lagna in the traditional way with step deduction. 09:00:00 - 01:01:51 Capricorn Bal 07:58:09 - 01:09:22 Aquarius Bal 06:48:47 - 01:09:58 Pisces Bal 05:38:49 - 01:17:39 Aries Bal 04:21:10 - 01:45:04 Taurus Bal 02:36:06 - 02:18:07 Gemini Bal 00:17:59 Balance Remaining in Cancer The Total Duration of Cancer is 2hr 35min 01sec (2.58361) and the Lagna has risen for the duration 17m 59sec. The degree risen would be Degree of Lagna = (30/ 2.58361)*(17.983/60) = 3.48027 = 3d 28m Cancer. This is the Lagna, when we take Lagna calculation with center of Sun or Sunrise with Center of Sun rising. If we take apparent rise of tip as the sunrise which happens approx 4 min before the rise of center of Sun, we can advance the Lagna by 4 min. In 4 min Lagna would rise (30/2.58361)*(4/60) = 0d 46 min = 4d 14m in Cancer. Hope, this shows that actual Lagna does not move with a steady rate of 1 sign in 2hrs. Only Bhava lagna can move with that rate. Best Wishes Sarajit Chandrashekhar Sharma [boxdel] Friday, September 26, 2003 4:28 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? Dear Sarajit, You have not given your opinion on B.Suryanarayan Rao,s commentary on Jaimini. Again why not calculate Lagna too which is also calculated mathematically, as you pointed out. This would rule out presumptions, as you have adviced. If I remember right the original question did not limit BL to BPHS only. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarajit Poddar [sarajit]Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:22 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? || Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Chandrashekhar, You said… Again as Anna said that in her case she gets Taurus as BL and Cancer as Natal Lagna, logic dictates that this is not possible even if we take the difference in linear and nonlinear Rasi movements through the zodiac at Horizon. Lets calculate the Bhava Lagna for the chart and see where is comes. Sun’s Longitude at Sunrise at Birth = 8 Cp 59 = 9s 8:59 Time Elapsed after Sunrise = 16:00 – 7:00 = 9 hrs Move Lagna @ 2 hrs per Rasi we arrive at 4sign 15deg (4s 15:00) signs from solar longitude. Adding this to Sun’s longitude we get, 1s 23d 59m. If we start the Lagna from apparent rise of tip of the sun, which happens 4 min before the actual rise of the center, we have to move the lagna 4m back, which brings the BL to 1s 23d 55m and this is what JHORA shows exactly. I do not think there should be any confusion with the Lagna which is in Cancer. So I am not calculating it mathematically. Now what you say about the calculation! Is it possible or not to have BL and Lagna in Ta and Cn respectively? Mathematics doesn’t defy logic…. Presumptions does... :-) Now why the difference between the two so high! I have given the answer in my last mail on the topic… Best Wishes Sarajit Chandrashekhar Sharma [boxdel] Thursday, September 25, 2003 4:10 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? Dear Narasimharaoji, I was not doubting your knowledge nor your skill in Ganita.I was just pointing out that I am not aware of the parameters used in JHL. I have already said that I am no an expert in Ganita Skandha. Again as Anna said that in her case she gets Taurus as BL and Cancer as Natal Lagna, logic dictates that this is not possible even if we take the difference in linear and nonlinear Rasi movements through the zodiac at Horizon. Another reason that I thought Bhava lagna is Natal lagna is that Parashara does not mention how to calculate Natal Lagna, nor does he elaborate on use of Bhava lagna. This surely is not an oversight on the part of the Great Sage. It therefore appealed to my Viveka that the Sage meant Natal Lagna by the term Bhava Lagna.I still hold that position. You have also,rightly, pointed out that sun rise is not defined by the Sage and that you have given three options for sunrise. Saantanam in his commentary on BPHS says that the 4 charts drawn for HL, GL,BL and Natal Lagna are to be assessed to find out results of Bhavas by referring to distance in degrees from Bhava sphuta. He says this is per special hints in Chaukhamba Benares edition. This is why in my original post I had said that it might be related to Bhavachalit Chart, which, I personally feel, has arisen out of Greek influence and not part of Arsha system followed in Vedic astrology. If you feel there is a flaw in my logic feel free to correct me as I am still learning the intricacies of Vedic astrology whichis clouded by too many editions and apabhransha of shlokas. With Regards, Chandrashekhar. pvr108 [pvr]Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:50 AMvarahamihira Subject: |Sri Varaha| Re: Bhava Lagna ? Namaste Chandrashekhar ji,Sri B.Suryanarain Rao is a great scholar without any doubt.Let us forget Jaimini and look at just Parasara. In BPHS, Parasaramentions in an early chapter (titled Visesha lagnas or specialascendants) how to calculate bhava lagna (BL), hora lagna (HL) andghati[ka] lagna (GL). May be someone can quote the verses.The verses of Parasara are clear and have no scope for any kind ofambiguity. BL, HL and GL conjoin Sun at sunrise and move at thelinear rates of 1 sign, 2 signs and 5 signs per 2 hours(respectively). While these lagnas have a linear motion, the normallagna can have a non-linear motion.JHora and JHoraLite softwares follow Parasara's teaching.However, it is not clear what Parasara meant by sunrise. JHoragives 3 options for sunrise and scholars can experiment.May Jupiter's light shine on us,Narasimha> Dear Brendan,> I would suggest you read commentary on Jaimini Sutras by B. Suryanarayanrao,> where he clearly states> "Bhava Lagna-used in Jaimini-means the ordinary Lagna as is mentioned in the> ordinary books> on Astrology. The sign that rises at birth on any particular day."> Your comments on above are solicited. As to BL calculations in JHL, I would> not like to comment as I am not aware what parameters are used in the> calculations therein.> Regards,> Chandrashekhar.|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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