Guest guest Posted October 17, 2003 Report Share Posted October 17, 2003 Dear Ramadas, At first I wanted to write off-list to you- then I realized that too much interest for 'old progression rule in a jyotish cloth' requires that I do that this way. I appreciate your open-mindness and your interest in Nadi, Naksetra and Progression- for the first two I am looking forward to learning a lot from you- my chart simply cannot be understood, I've realized, without taking them into consideration. However I have serious objection to your use of day-for year progression and their interpretation. I hope this won't make you fell your efforts have been depreciated, since nothing can be further from truth than that! I agree that solar Arc, day-for-year progressions are truly an elegant, always working /rear thing in astrology!!!/ tool. And I understand how amazed you've been when discovered that. Planetary direction WHEN happens in horoscope, NEVER fails to denote a milestone year, in many ways MIND perhaps being the first but outside events follow in plenty. However, with your 'Jyotish-ized' interpretation I cannot really agree. For the following reasons: 1/Progressions, who knows why, work both direct and conversed. If you say that Sa or JuR becomes direct say at 35 and that means paid-of past birth karma etc, as I have seen so far- no dear Rarmadas, we CANNOT make that conclusion- the most we can say is that for reasons unknown, major shift happens along with numerous events, etc..Because, go converse, one day per year, you'll find the SAME happening -change of direction, but sure, at different time. Two conclusions can be made a/ time as we know it doesn't really exist b/ some other unknown 'rules' rule our destiny, etc.. 2/You took into consideration ONLY Ju and Sa, and planetary chages of DIRECTIONS happen to Me, Ve, Ma as well, with the same, AMAZING manifestations /as those of Ju and Sa/- Why didn't you discuss that as well, it's the same issue, isn't it? It would be much harder, though, to apply 'jyotishized' theoretical 'explanation' and 'write a new chapter in jyotish', but you know to well that 'easy' doesn't always mean 'right'. Mercury most frequently changes direction, and is therefore very accurate timing tool- ask ANY client what 'turn' happened in their life then, and they will think you were a 'psychic', reading them as a book. 3/Change of sign also works 4/Tertiary and Minor Progressions do work, on a MORE frequent basis, within the 'same framework of time' that, I am afraid defies and deny 'interpretation extension' I object to now. Many western astrologers, me included, are studying Jyotish now, in search of better understanding of Life and Time. I LOVE JYOTISH a lot and the fact that I will be using progressions, and that there seems not to be that elegant tool in jyotish/is that right?? I am in doubt myself/, doesn't take, not even little bit of that sacred science that I've been mesmerized by, so far. WE do not need to 'reconcile' 2 separate systems- it will not do just Jyotish, to overextend inappropriately its 'cloths' to old western concepts. I beg you to understand how much I appreciate your open-mildness, mildness and unselfish sharing at all times- even this adventure to western proves the quality I mentioned!!! I would see all other workable tools, but with JYOTISH INTEGRITY uncompromised- and I am sure it's your sincere intention as well. I am surprised that neither Sanjay nor Narasimha, nor.. have written on this important 'theoretical foundation' so far. I am looking forward to hearing more good stuff from you, as usual! Respectfully, Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2003 Report Share Posted October 17, 2003 ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| Bonjour Anna, Comment ca va? tres bien, j'espere... Got a question for you: for each state of planet (direct or retrograde) in the natal chart, what is the basic principle behind using progressions in western astrology and how was the basis of 1 day = 1 year arrived at? regards Hari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2003 Report Share Posted October 17, 2003 Dear Hari, Your question is what is the reason why one day /month, lunar month-depending on progression type/ represents one year of life-one ahead birth, as well one prior to birth- I know of many hypothesis, from Christian astrology and Leo, earliest astrologers to new ones.. The only thingwe know for sure IT WORKS- another thing that I am sure about is that TIME is not the 'point'-rather infinite continuum-our senses, ratio, faculties simply ARE NOT capable of understanding 'flow of time' as it seems to exist /otherwise why progressions would work/. We kind of accepted 'as above so bellow' paradigm, but it's 'spacial', not related to 'time'. I am aware of the fact that this is Jyotish learning List and won't go into details I've been entertaining all my life /which easily ecompas concept of karma!!!I'd say easier than per what /I/ learned from Jyotish, although LESS explicite and MUCH more implicit, IMHO.All those SF stories of 'hole in time' time-machine, etc. do relate to mystery above all mysteries- TIME /esoteric, I agree, no death exists, no end exists, only illusion invented to serve our limited human understanding/ My 2 ct. Just try progressions and tell me what you think- that would be equally valid as what inventor of electricicy Nikola Tesla did- since neither can be justified by senses, just by the 'consenquaencies' /electricity in a simpler way fits this clumsy try of defining 'lack of full understanding of TIME- electricity exists we know, bcs. it 'causes something else: light, energy .. try to explain it...defies explanation. "Time" at this point in time /human time/ defies full understandingProgressions work-try for yourself. No more phylosophy of egsistence, just pure 'practice' Good Luck, Je suis tres bien, mercy- mais, pourqua vous parlais France ON English List, Sir? Anna |Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 || Jaya Jagannath || Dear Anna, Namaste I can understand your concern that the pristine glory of Jyotisha should not be diluted with concepts which does not belong to Jyotish and has been brought forward from outside. However, the progressions are used in Jyotish for complete different reasons. Manu has spoken on it long back in a way that 1 day of Deva (1 degree moved by Sun) equals 1 year in human life and things like that. This forms the basis where we progress Sun by 1 degree and get the results in years for humans. However, the progressions can vary based on the area of life we are focusing on and the rate of progression change. For illustration, for matters concerning work we do Dasamsa progression, whereby we progress @3 deg (1 Dasamsa) per year (as in 10 years it will complete 1 sign). Please go through the files section and you shall get 1 lesson on progressions written by Narasimha. Hope, that shall give you some more information on the topic. Best Wishes Sarajit bona_mente [jyotish108] Friday, October 17, 2003 3:46 PM varahamihira |Sri Varaha| Progressions- Ramadas Dear Ramadas, At first I wanted to write off-list to you- then I realized that too much interest for 'old progression rule in a jyotish cloth' requires that I do that this way. I appreciate your open-mindness and your interest in Nadi, Naksetra and Progression- for the first two I am looking forward to learning a lot from you- my chart simply cannot be understood, I've realized, without taking them into consideration. However I have serious objection to your use of day-for year progression and their interpretation. I hope this won't make you fell your efforts have been depreciated, since nothing can be further from truth than that! I agree that solar Arc, day-for-year progressions are truly an elegant, always working /rear thing in astrology!!!/ tool. And I understand how amazed you've been when discovered that. Planetary direction WHEN happens in horoscope, NEVER fails to denote a milestone year, in many ways MIND perhaps being the first but outside events follow in plenty. However, with your 'Jyotish-ized' interpretation I cannot really agree. For the following reasons: 1/Progressions, who knows why, work both direct and conversed. If you say that Sa or JuR becomes direct say at 35 and that means paid-of past birth karma etc, as I have seen so far- no dear Rarmadas, we CANNOT make that conclusion- the most we can say is that for reasons unknown, major shift happens along with numerous events, etc..Because, go converse, one day per year, you'll find the SAME happening -change of direction, but sure, at different time. Two conclusions can be made a/ time as we know it doesn't really exist b/ some other unknown 'rules' rule our destiny, etc.. 2/You took into consideration ONLY Ju and Sa, and planetary chages of DIRECTIONS happen to Me, Ve, Ma as well, with the same, AMAZING manifestations /as those of Ju and Sa/- Why didn't you discuss that as well, it's the same issue, isn't it? It would be much harder, though, to apply 'jyotishized' theoretical 'explanation' and 'write a new chapter in jyotish', but you know to well that 'easy' doesn't always mean 'right'. Mercury most frequently changes direction, and is therefore very accurate timing tool- ask ANY client what 'turn' happened in their life then, and they will think you were a 'psychic', reading them as a book. 3/Change of sign also works 4/Tertiary and Minor Progressions do work, on a MORE frequent basis, within the 'same framework of time' that, I am afraid defies and deny 'interpretation extension' I object to now. Many western astrologers, me included, are studying Jyotish now, in search of better understanding of Life and Time. I LOVE JYOTISH a lot and the fact that I will be using progressions, and that there seems not to be that elegant tool in jyotish/is that right?? I am in doubt myself/, doesn't take, not even little bit of that sacred science that I've been mesmerized by, so far. WE do not need to 'reconcile' 2 separate systems- it will not do just Jyotish, to overextend inappropriately its 'cloths' to old western concepts. I beg you to understand how much I appreciate your open-mildness, mildness and unselfish sharing at all times- even this adventure to western proves the quality I mentioned!!! I would see all other workable tools, but with JYOTISH INTEGRITY uncompromised- and I am sure it's your sincere intention as well. I am surprised that neither Sanjay nor Narasimha, nor.. have written on this important 'theoretical foundation' so far. I am looking forward to hearing more good stuff from you, as usual! Respectfully, Anna |Om Tat Sat| http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 Dear Sarajit, Thanks for your writing, too bad I can't say 'responding'-Strange misunderstanding here- Jyotish can stand for itself, no need for me to worry about its "cleanness" as you imply- you also seem to miss the points: short summary would be that they are related to Various PR. as we know from western astrology only, and their 'new' interpretation, as well as selective use /and interpretation/ of planetary directional change, which /interpretation/ has been applied to Saturn and Ju only. Not even methodologically acceptable!!! Under the same name, different issues exist, /you also don't need to prove that pr. are mentioned ...somewhere... it goes without saying/ you seem to be wrong' on that basis- we simply do not talk about the same thing /we have 'progressions' in Varshapal, too, not an issue though!/ By the way, as per your comment, for divisional charts to be progressed, we have to have at least their degrees- only Andrew Foss's program gives them, and NOT HL- does that tell something at LEAST about importance given to this, let alone usage and explanations definetely not present in what I've seen so far- I'd say so. I like 'clean' exchange of thoughts, / lose interest if it's "poluted"/ , if possible- if not I'd rather let my comment stand for itself Sorry that I write in hurry- besides, I said enough, and clearly enough, I guess, what I wanted to- I am sure you'd agrre with me /just read my posts again if you wish/ Wishing you all the best, Anna-"Sarajit Poddar" Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:04:27 +0800RE: |Sri Varaha| Progressions- Ramadas|| Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Anna, NamasteI can understand your concern that the pristine glory of Jyotisha shouldnot be diluted with concepts which does not belong to Jyotish and hasbeen brought forward from outside. However, the progressions are used in Jyotish for complete differentreasons. Manu has spoken on it long back in a way that 1 day of Deva (1degree moved by Sun) equals 1 year in human life and things like that.This forms the basis where we progress Sun by 1 degree and get theresults in years for humans. However, the progressions can vary based onthe area of life we are focusing on and the rate of progression change.For illustration, for matters concerning work we do Dasamsa progress ion,whereby we progress @3 deg (1 Dasamsa) per year (as in 10 years it willcomplete 1 sign).Please go through the files section and you shall get 1 lesson onprogressions written by Narasimha. Hope, that shall give you some moreinformation on the topic.Best WishesSarajitbona_mente [jyotish108] Friday, October 17, 2003 3:46 PMvarahamihira Subject: |Sri Varaha| Progressions- RamadasDear Ramadas,At first I wanted to write off-list to you- then I realized that too much interest for 'old progression rule in a jyotish cloth' requires that I do that this way.I appreciate your open-mindness and your interest in Nadi, Naksetra and Progression- for the first two I am looking forward to learning a lot from you- my chart simply cannot be understood, I've realized, without taking them into consideration. However I have serious objection to your use of day-for year progression and their interpretation. I hope this won't make you fell your efforts have been depreciated, since nothing can be further from truth than that! I agree that solar Arc, day-for-year progressions are truly an elegant, always working /rear thing in astrology!!!/ tool. And I understand how amazed you've been when discovered that. Planetary direction WHEN happens in horoscope, NEVER fails to denote a milestone year, in many ways MIND perhaps being the first but outside events follow in plenty. However, with your 'Jyotish-ized' interpretation I cannot really agree. For the following reasons:1/Progressions, who knows why, work both direct and conversed.If you say that Sa or JuR becomes direct say at 35 and that means paid-of past birth karma etc, as I have seen so far- no dear Rarmadas, we CANNOT make that conclusion- the most we can sa y is that for reasons unknown, major shift happens along with numerous events, etc..Because, go converse, one day per year, you'll find the SAME happening -change of direction, but sure, at different time. Two conclusions can be made a/ time as we know it doesn't really exist b/ some other unknown 'rules' rule our destiny, etc.. 2/You took into consideration ONLY Ju and Sa, and planetary chages of DIRECTIONS happen to Me, Ve, Ma as well, with the same, AMAZING manifestations /as those of Ju and Sa/- Why didn't you discuss that as well, it's the same issue, isn't it? It would be much harder, though, to apply 'jyotishized' theoretical 'explanation' and 'write a new chapter in jyotish', but you know to well that 'easy' doesn't always mean 'right'.Mercury most frequently changes direction, and is therefore very accurate timing tool- ask ANY client what 'turn' happened in their life then, and they will think you were a 'psychic', reading them as a book.3/Change of sign also works4/Tertiary and Minor Progressions do work, on a MORE frequent basis, within the 'same framework of time' that, I am afraid defies and deny 'interpretation extension' I object to now. Many western astrologers, me included, are studying Jyotish now, in search of better understanding of Life and Time. I LOVE JYOTISH a lot and the fact that I will be using progressions, and that there seems not to be that elegant tool in jyotish/is that right?? I am in doubt myself/, doesn't take, not even little bit of that sacred science that I've been mesmerized by, so far. WE do not need to 'reconcile' 2 separate systems- it will not do just Jyotish, to overextend inappropriately its 'cloths' to old western concepts.I beg you to understand how much I appreciate your open-mildness, mildness and unselfish sharing at all times- even this adven ture to western proves the quality I mentioned!!! I would see all other workable tools, but with JYOTISH INTEGRITY uncompromised- and I am sure it's your sincere intention as well.I am surprised that neither Sanjay nor Narasimha, nor.. have written on this important 'theoretical foundation' so far.I am looking forward to hearing more good stuff from you, as usual!Respectfully,Anna|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 Namaste Anna, > By the way, as per your comment, for divisional charts to be progressed, > we have to have at least their degrees- only Andrew Foss's program > gives them, and NOT HL- does that tell something at LEAST about > importance given to this, I am afraid you misunderstood the progression of divisional charts mentioned by Sarajit. When you progress the chart at the rate desired (one trimsamsa per year or one dasamsa per year or one navamsa per year etc), you get the planetary degrees of the progressed chart. Then cast the divisional charts for the progressed degrees. JHora commercial version gives them. Sanjay taught at the west coast seminar in 2002 and 2003 about how to use Sun's progression in various divisional charts. I assume you are talking about planetary longitudes in various divisional charts and thinking that they have to be progressed. There is no classical basis for planetary longitudes in divisional charts. But I am open to giving it in JHora. The only fear I have is that this may result in a lot of wasted research time. I didn't want to facilitate that. May Jupiter's light shine on us,Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Dear Anna/Sarajit, If I may add, both of you are right in their own way. In Indian astrology(post Vedic period) next year is not added linearly since even Vara(day) is not so added.You might like to refer to Neelkanth Tajiki. Chandrashekhar. jyotish108 [jyotish108]Saturday, October 18, 2003 8:05 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Progressions- Ramadas Dear Sarajit, Thanks for your writing, too bad I can't say 'responding'-Strange misunderstanding here- Jyotish can stand for itself, no need for me to worry about its "cleanness" as you imply- you also seem to miss the points: short summary would be that they are related to Various PR. as we know from western astrology only, and their 'new' interpretation, as well as selective use /and interpretation/ of planetary directional change, which /interpretation/ has been applied to Saturn and Ju only. Not even methodologically acceptable!!! Under the same name, different issues exist, /you also don't need to prove that pr. are mentioned ...somewhere... it goes without saying/ you seem to be wrong' on that basis- we simply do not talk about the same thing /we have 'progressions' in Varshapal, too, not an issue though!/ By the way, as per your comment, for divisional charts to be progressed, we have to have at least their degrees- only Andrew Foss's program gives them, and NOT HL- does that tell something at LEAST about importance given to this, let alone usage and explanations definetely not present in what I've seen so far- I'd say so. I like 'clean' exchange of thoughts, / lose interest if it's "poluted"/ , if possible- if not I'd rather let my comment stand for itself Sorry that I write in hurry- besides, I said enough, and clearly enough, I guess, what I wanted to- I am sure you'd agrre with me /just read my posts again if you wish/ Wishing you all the best, Anna-"Sarajit Poddar" Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:04:27 +0800RE: |Sri Varaha| Progressions- Ramadas|| Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Anna, NamasteI can understand your concern that the pristine glory of Jyotisha shouldnot be diluted with concepts which does not belong to Jyotish and hasbeen brought forward from outside. However, the progressions are used in Jyotish for complete differentreasons. Manu has spoken on it long back in a way that 1 day of Deva (1degree moved by Sun) equals 1 year in human life and things like that.This forms the basis where we progress Sun by 1 degree and get theresults in years for humans. However, the progressions can vary based onthe area of life we are focusing on and the rate of progression change.For illustration, for matters concerning work we do Dasamsa progress ion,whereby we progress @3 deg (1 Dasamsa) per year (as in 10 years it willcomplete 1 sign).Please go through the files section and you shall get 1 lesson onprogressions written by Narasimha. Hope, that shall give you some moreinformation on the topic.Best WishesSarajitbona_mente [jyotish108] Friday, October 17, 2003 3:46 PMvarahamihira Subject: |Sri Varaha| Progressions- RamadasDear Ramadas,At first I wanted to write off-list to you- then I realized that too much interest for 'old progression rule in a jyotish cloth' requires that I do that this way.I appreciate your open-mindness and your interest in Nadi, Naksetra and Progression- for the first two I am looking forward to learning a lot from you- my chart simply cannot be understood, I've realized, without taking them into consideration. However I have serious objection to your use of day-for year progression and their interpretation. I hope this won't make you fell your efforts have been depreciated, since nothing can be further from truth than that! I agree that solar Arc, day-for-year progressions are truly an elegant, always working /rear thing in astrology!!!/ tool. And I understand how amazed you've been when discovered that. Planetary direction WHEN happens in horoscope, NEVER fails to denote a milestone year, in many ways MIND perhaps being the first but outside events follow in plenty. However, with your 'Jyotish-ized' interpretation I cannot really agree. For the following reasons:1/Progressions, who knows why, work both direct and conversed.If you say that Sa or JuR becomes direct say at 35 and that means paid-of past birth karma etc, as I have seen so far- no dear Rarmadas, we CANNOT make that conclusion- the most we can sa y is that for reasons unknown, major shift happens along with numerous events, etc..Because, go converse, one day per year, you'll find the SAME happening -change of direction, but sure, at different time. Two conclusions can be made a/ time as we know it doesn't really exist b/ some other unknown 'rules' rule our destiny, etc.. 2/You took into consideration ONLY Ju and Sa, and planetary chages of DIRECTIONS happen to Me, Ve, Ma as well, with the same, AMAZING manifestations /as those of Ju and Sa/- Why didn't you discuss that as well, it's the same issue, isn't it? It would be much harder, though, to apply 'jyotishized' theoretical 'explanation' and 'write a new chapter in jyotish', but you know to well that 'easy' doesn't always mean 'right'.Mercury most frequently changes direction, and is therefore very accurate timing tool- ask ANY client what 'turn' happened in their life then, and they will think you were a 'psychic', reading them as a book.3/Change of sign also works4/Tertiary and Minor Progressions do work, on a MORE frequent basis, within the 'same framework of time' that, I am afraid defies and deny 'interpretation extension' I object to now. Many western astrologers, me included, are studying Jyotish now, in search of better understanding of Life and Time. I LOVE JYOTISH a lot and the fact that I will be using progressions, and that there seems not to be that elegant tool in jyotish/is that right?? I am in doubt myself/, doesn't take, not even little bit of that sacred science that I've been mesmerized by, so far. WE do not need to 'reconcile' 2 separate systems- it will not do just Jyotish, to overextend inappropriately its 'cloths' to old western concepts.I beg you to understand how much I appreciate your open-mildness, mildness and unselfish sharing at all times- even this adven ture to western proves the quality I mentioned!!! I would see all other workable tools, but with JYOTISH INTEGRITY uncompromised- and I am sure it's your sincere intention as well.I am surprised that neither Sanjay nor Narasimha, nor.. have written on this important 'theoretical foundation' so far.I am looking forward to hearing more good stuff from you, as usual!Respectfully,Anna|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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