Chara Karaka Replacement

November 17, 2003

Dear Ajit,

Spiritual mathematics means 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 - 1 = 1. We shouldn't try to

understand this with our limited material conception of life.

Yours,

Dhira Krsna dasa,

Jyotisha

http://www.radhadesh.com

November 17, 2003

Dear Sarajit,

With due respect to Sanjay, Parashara states in shloka 4 and 6 how Atmakaraka is to be defined, at length, wherein he tells about Antyakaraka, Madhya karaka and Upaketa being distinguished by reason of gaining higher degrees, Minutes and seconds respectively. In those shlokas he does not talk about a void being created and how to fill it in.rather shlokas 9 to 12 indicate special position enjoyed by Atmakaraka.

Shloka 16 to 17, if read as complete shlokas which I reproduce below,

indicate that he is commenting about the fact of some treating Matrukaraka and Putrakaraka merging as two planets get identical degrees, the next karakatwa is void and that this void(Lopa) is to be filled in by Sthira karaka. The reason appears to be identical degrees makes both the Karaktwas merge.He also indicates that some are of the opinion that Rahu gains position as Atmakaraka when two planets have identical longitude vide shloka 1 and if you read the shlokas carefully Parashara himself is talking about only 7 Karakas or sometimes 8 with Rahu ( indicating probably that this takes place when Rahu fills in the void) and goes on to say that some opine that Rahu is to be included as a regular Karaka in 8 karaka schema.

Perhaps source of Sanjay's statement is some other rare classic that he has in his possession. I am eagerly awaiting his comments so that my knowledge grows.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Sarajit Poddar [sarajit]Monday, November 17, 2003 3:44 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Chara Karaka Replacement

|| Jaya Jagannath ||Dear Chandrashekhar,

I am pasting the portion on the topic from Sanjayji’s article on Atmakaraka. Probably this might be of some help in understanding the issue.

Best Wishes

Sarajit

Carakäraka disappearance

We have already seen that when two or more planets are in the same degree (not minutes and seconds of arc), they fall into a special group for the carakäraka status of the one that is most advanced (see para 2.2 above). These käraka are also known as madhyakheöaù and antyakäraka.

Paräsara: BPHS 16½-17

ÖaE ¢haE ÉagtuLyaE ce¾ayeta< ySy jNmin. 16.

td¢karkSyEv< laepae }eyae iÖjaeÄm,

iSwrkarkvzaÄSy )l< }ey< zuÉa=zuÉm!. 17.

dvau grahau bhägatulyau cejjäyetäà yasya janmani || 16||

tadagrakärakasyaivaà lopo jïeyo dvijottama |

sthirakärakavaçättasya phalaà jïeyaà çubhä'çubham || 17||

Lopa means breaking (refers to the break in the chain/order of the carakäraka), destruction (refers to one planet over powering another and taking over its carakäraka position) and disappearance (refers to a void created by the absence of a carakäraka). When two or more planets are in the same degree, then there is a tussle between then for the carakäraka position. The one with a higher longitude (considering minutes and seconds) is initially declared the carakäraka and the one with the lower longitude is relegated to the next lower carakäraka position in the rung while the one with the lowest goes one rung even lower in the carakäraka status. These lower carakäraka continue to strive for the higher status and are called madhyakheöaù and antyakäraka respectively. In such cases, the first käraka (agra) is gradually destroyed (lopa) and replaced by the lower one and finally the antyakäraka shall take over the signification. The vacuum created by the loss of one or more slots of the carakäraka as a lower carakäraka takes over the status of a carakäraka higher in the rung is to be filled by (a) first Rahu in the case of seven planet carakäraka scheme for non-living bodies and then the sthira käraka, and (2) sthira käraka in the case of the living beings where eight carakäraka scheme is used. This gives us a vital clue about mundane charts in that whenever we find two or more planets in the same degree, then the mischief-maker Rahu shall come into the picture of the seven-planet carakäraka scheme. In horoscopy, this can translate to the early loss of (or denial of) the person indicated by the carakäraka whose slot falls vacant and is to be examined only from sthira käraka. In fact the recommendation of Paräsara to use sthira käraka (fixed significators) to fill such slots hints at the need to examine the longevity of such relations as the sthira käraka are meant for such purpose.

Chandrashekhar [boxdel] Friday, November 14, 2003 5:40 AMvarahamihira Subject: Re: |Sri Varaha| Chara Karaka Replacement

Dear Sudarshan,Neither Parashara nor Jaimini indicate that Planet with lesser amshas (lower chara karakatwa means this) replaces the one with higher degrees anywhere, to the best of my knowledge. In fact not only does Parashara tells about Atmakaraka being the planet with highest degrees, he goes on to say that as a King is of prime importance so do the effects of other Karakas subject to those of Atmakaraka.Perhaps, we wait for Sanjay's comments.Chandrashekhar.Sudharsan Srinivasan wrote:

Hare Rama Krishna

Dear Chandrashekhar,

In my original post the data is given. Saturn is the AK as it has higher minutes( albeit on the same degree as Venus).If they are not identical on the degree the following extract from my original post will not apply-

After having ascertained grahas occupying the same degree, here are the steps:

i) The Graha with a lower Chara Karakatwa is going to replace the higher.

ii) As a result the lower Chara Karakatwa is going to disappear, in favor of a higher Karakatwa.

iii) See the Sthira Karaka of the disappeared Chara Karakatwa and see its strength.

In fact the above is a copy paste from an email from Visti.

Sarabani ji was also present with Visti ji and many others when Sanjay ji was teaching this concept on the East Coast. I went back last night and listened to the recording of the lecture and one of the cases that were analyzed was of Sarabani. Another example was of my own chart. Sanjay ji clearly talks of replacement of the higher chara karaka with that of the lower. And the lower chara karaka that moves up the ladder(I think heres where you differ) is replaced by the Sthira Karaka.

Indira Gandhi's chart was similarly analyzed by Sanjay ji in a different class and the analysis that I presented was of course gathered from his lecture.

So obviously, Sanjay ji is using two different approaches for the 7 and 8 chara karaka schemes. Sarabani's comments appear to agree to your explanation of the 7 chara karaka scheme which is fine for mundane charts-this was discussed on the west coast.

I only repeated whatever my Gurus taught me but since you have raised a question about it, in my opinion its best to wait for Sanjay ji's comments.

Hare Krishna

Sudharsan

Chandrashekhar <boxdel wrote:

Dear Sudarshan,In the example given, if Saturn and Venus both have identical degrees, how can Saturn be called as Atmakaraka and Venus Amatyakaraka is something I do not understand. Parashara says that the Planet gaining highest degrees becomes the Atmakaraka. Therefore both would become Atmakaraka(By degrees degrees,minutes and seconds are implied). Now if we take your first premise of Sthira Karaka replacing Amatyakaraka position would be filled in by the Sthira karaka. No replacement of Saturn by Venus would be possible. Should one have higher minutes then it would be Madhya Karaka and should minutes too be identical one with higher seconds would be called Upakheta.Parashara says that some say that Rahu replaces the Karaka ( Blank created) and some say that irrespective of such a state Rahu has to be considered as one of the Karakas even if such state arises. He has not expressed what he considers to be correct. After this having been considered should similarity of Amsha, minutes,seconds arise then Sthira Karakas replace the blank space due to such identical amshas being obtained by the other Karakas(Chara). (Shloka1,2,3,4, to17 Chapter 32 BPHS)In light of this either Rahu could be the Atmakaraka or both Venus and Saturn will be Atmakaraka and Rahu will become Amatyakaraka, assuming the Degrees, minutes and second of Saturn and Venus are equal. Sarbaniji has also said that what I am saying is in line with what Sanjay taught.I hope this clarifies the matter.Regards,Chandrashekhar.Sudharsan Srinivasan wrote:

Hare Rama Krishna

Dear Chandrashekhar,

I fail to see the contradiction in the eight chara karaka scheme.Just to be sure we are on the same page, lets take Indira Gandhi's case.The atmakaraka and amatyakaraka are on the same degree.Saturn is the Atmakaraka and Venus is the Amatyakaraka.At the natural ages of the planets involved, the following takes place according to whatever I understood from Sanjay ji and Visti-

a) Venus replaces Saturn as the Atmakaraka

b) Saturn moves out of the picture

c) the sthira Amatyakaraka replaces Venus

Can you kindly expand on your comment using the above.Many thanks.

Hare Krishna

SudharsanChandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Sarbani,

Thank you for confirming the veracity of my statement. I was certain that Sanjay could not teach as was being professed. Probably there was a mistake of perception by the students. By the way, I had sent you a mail about Puri Conference accommodation on Vyasa mail id. I have yet to hear from you. Should you have not received the mail, kindly let me know, so that I can send the same again. Also indicate on which of your mail IDs would you like to receive the same.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Sarbani Sarkar [sarbani]Tuesday, November 11, 2003 6:45 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Chara Karaka Replacement

Dear Chandrashekharji,

What you say is what Sanjayji taught in the west coast. Rahu replaces the vacancy, and at the second level, the sthira karaka steps in.

Best regards,

Sarbani

Chandrashekhar Sharma [boxdel]Sunday, November 09, 2003 1:50 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Chara Karaka Replacement

Dear Sudarshan,

If I remember my astrology right, replacement takes place in 7 Chara Karaka scheme where Rahu replaces the place left vacant by two planets aquiring similar degrees and if this happens down the ladder, Sthira Karaka replaces the place left vacant.

In case of 8 Chara Karakas, by extension of the same logic, Sthira karaka should fill in the place left vacant and the moving down the ladder appears to contradict this.

May be, Sanjay will give his inputs on this.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Sudharsan Srinivasan [sudhar108]Sunday, November 09, 2003 5:22 AMvedic astrology ; varahamihira Subject: |Sri Varaha| Chara Karaka Replacement

HARE RAMA KRISHNA

Dear List and Jk,

The chara Karaka replacement principle was discussed very recently in a workshop by Sanjay ji and yesterday Visti happened to clarify the same to me in detail.Since JK brought the question up in his recent email, Visti suggested that I explain the principle.

Chara karakas get replaced when they fall in the same degree. The planet with the lower degree loses its chara karakatwa and moves up the ladder. As a result the planet with the higher degree drops off the chara karaka list.For example, if the Atmakaraka and Amatyakaraka share the same longitude but differ only by a few minutes, at some point, the Amtyakaraka ascends to act as the Atmakaraka and the planet that was acting as the Atmakaraka completely moves out of the picture. The empty slot of the Amatyakaraka is filled by the sthira Amatyakaraka. If the sthira karaka is weak, the relative of the native represented by the planet lose their longevity. For example if the slot of Darakaraka is filled by the Sthira Darakaraka Venus, and Venus is weak in the chart, the longevity of the Spouse(in the case of males) can be affected.

After having ascertained grahas occupying the same degree, here are the steps:

i) The Graha with a lower Chara Karakatwa is going to replace the higher.

ii) As a result the lower Chara Karakatwa is going to disappear, in favor of a higher Karakatwa.

iii) See the Sthira Karaka of the disappeared Chara Karakatwa and see its strength.

A good example of Chara Karaka replacement is in the case of the late prime minister of India, Indira Gandhi. The details of Karakas are given below and we find that Saturn is the AK posited in lagna and Venus is the Amatyakaraka posited in the sixth house with Rahu. Both Saturn and Venus share the longitude, of 21 Degrees.At the natural age of Saturn, i.e 36,Saturn moved out of the picture and Venus took up the role of Atmakaraka(I am not certain about the timing as to whether it was the natural age of Venus or Saturn). It was observed that the native initially was never interested in politics and was very family and tradition bound. These are clear signs of the influence of Saturn as Atmakaraka. She was infact very attached and devoted to her husband. But once Venus took over as Atmakaraka,there was a 180 degree turn and she got into politics at the cost of her family.Venus is placed in the sixth with Rahu and she was a good administrator(Venus) but also had the influence of Rahu.There are other influences in the chart like that of the parivarthana between Jupiter and Venus that explain the role of the ninth lord(Father) who was the reason for her entry into politics.Now Venus is also in a 2/12 relationship with the Sun who is the chara darakaraka.

Sanjay ji suggested that we could use Naisargika Dasa to time these changes incombination with the natural age of planets.However, we didnt get into details and this is a topic for further research and of course the mercy of Sanjay ji.

I request Visti to add or correct the above if needed.

Hare Krishna

Sudharsan

Indira Gandhi

Natal Chart

November 19, 1917Time: 11:07:00 pmTime Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)Place: 81 E 52' 00", 25 N 28' 00" Edison, New Jersey, USAAltitude: 160.00 meters

Lunar Yr-Mo: Pingala - KarthikaTithi: Sukla Shashthi (Ve) (88.15% left)Vedic Weekday: Monday (Mo)Nakshatra: Uttarashadha (Su) (33.38% left)Yoga: Ganda (Sa)Karana: Kaulava (Ma)Hora Lord: Jupiter (5 min sign: Le)Mahakala Hora: Mars (5 min sign: Ar)Kaala Lord: Saturn (Mahakala: Saturn)

Sunrise: 6:22:23 amSunset: 5:12:22 pmJanma Ghatis: 41.8592

Ayanamsa: 22-42-54.40Sidereal Time: 2:57:10

Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Navamsa

Lagna 26 Cn 30' 54.66" Asre 3 Cn AqSun - DK 4 Sc 07' 39.45" Anu 1 Sc LeMoon - GK 5 Cp 32' 57.86" USha 3 Cp AqMars - MK 16 Le 22' 39.05" PPha 1 Le LeMercury - PK 13 Sc 14' 13.92" Anu 3 Sc LiJupiter ® - PiK 14 Ta 59' 54.96" Rohi 2 Ta TaVenus - AmK 21 Sg 00' 23.54" PSha 3 Sg LiSaturn - AK 21 Cn 47' 14.55" Asre 2 Cn CpRahu - BK 10 Sg 33' 54.70" Mool 4 Sg CnKetu 10 Ge 33' 54.70" Ardr 2 Ge CpMaandi 11 Ge 21' 52.00" Ardr 2 Ge CpGulika 29 Ta 54' 51.50" Mrig 2 Ta ViUranus 27 Cp 15' 15.47" Dhan 2 Cp ViNeptune ® 14 Cn 22' 00.67" Push 4 Cn ScPluto ® 12 Ge 27' 16.92" Ardr 2 Ge CpBhava Lagna 14 Cn 34' 41.66" Push 4 Cn ScHora Lagna 25 Pi 43' 59.98" Reva 3 Pi AqGhati Lagna 29 Ar 11' 54.95" Krit 1 Ar SgVighati Lagna 16 Li 31' 29.82" Swat 3 Li AqVarnada Lagna 22 Cn 14' 54.64" Asre 2 Cn CpSree Lagna 26 Pi 20' 56.86" Reva 3 Pi AqPranapada Lagna 17 Ge 13' 45.94" Ardr 4 Ge PiIndu Lagna 5 Ge 32' 57.86" Mrig 4 Ge ScDhooma 17 Pi 27' 39.45" Reva 1 Pi SgVyatipata 12 Ar 32' 20.55" Aswi 4 Ar CnParivesha 12 Li 32' 20.55" Swat 2 Li CpIndra Chapa 17 Vi 27' 39.45" Hast 3 Vi GeUpaketu 4 Li 07' 39.45" Chit 4 Li ScKaala 24 Cn 37' 00.87" Asre 3 Cn AqMrityu 8 Vi 47' 45.44" UPha 4 Vi PiArtha Prahara 1 Li 03' 52.96" Chit 3 Li LiYama Ghantaka 22 Li 51' 56.34" Visa 1 Li ArPrana Sphuta 12 Cp 29' 24.80" Srav 1 Cp ArDeha Sphuta 14 Cn 18' 34.37" Push 4 Cn ScMrityu Sphuta 3 Cp 31' 39.93" USha 3 Cp AqTrisphuta 0 Aq 19' 39.10" Dhan 3 Aq LiV2 22 Vi 14' 54.64" Hast 4 Vi CnV3 22 Sc 14' 54.64" Jye 2 Sc CpV4 22 Cp 14' 54.64" Srav 4 Cp CnV5 22 Pi 14' 54.64" Reva 2 Pi CpV6 22 Ta 14' 54.64" Rohi 4 Ta CnV7 22 Cn 14' 54.64" Asre 2 Cn CpV8 22 Vi 14' 54.64" Hast 4 Vi CnV9 22 Sc 14' 54.64" Jye 2 Sc CpV10 22 Cp 14' 54.64" Srav 4 Cp CnV11 22 Pi 14' 54.64" Reva 2 Pi CpV12 22 Ta 14' 54.64" Rohi 4 Ta CnKunda 17 Ge 43' 47.51" Ardr 4 Ge Pi

+--------------+|HL |GL AL |JuR Gk |Ke Md || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | | ||-----------+-----------------------+-----------|| | |As Sa || | | || | | || | | || | | ||-----------| Rasi |-----------||Mo | |Ma || | | || | | || | | || | | ||-----------+-----------------------+-----------||Ve Ra |Su Me | | || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | | |+--------------+ +--------------+| | |JuR | || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | | ||-----------+-----------------------+-----------||As Mo | |Ra ||HL | | || | | || | | || | | ||-----------| Navamsa |-----------||Sa Ke | |Su Ma ||Md | | || | | || | | || | | ||-----------+-----------------------+-----------||GL AL | |Me Ve |Gk || | | | || | | | || | | | || | | | |+--------------+ Vimsottari Dasa (started from Moon):

Sun Sun 1913-11-20 Moon 1914-03-07 Mars 1914-09-09 Rah 1915-01-13 Jup 1915-12-09 Sat 1916-09-27 Merc 1917-09-09 Ket 1918-07-15 Ven 1918-11-21 Moon Moon 1919-11-21 Mars 1920-09-21 Rah 1921-04-18 Jup 1922-10-22 Sat 1924-02-18 Merc 1925-09-21 Ket 1927-02-17 Ven 1927-09-22 Sun 1929-05-19 Mars Mars 1929-11-21 Rah 1930-04-15 Jup 1931-05-04 Sat 1932-04-09 Merc 1933-05-19 Ket 1934-05-16 Ven 1934-10-16 Sun 1935-12-15 Moon 1936-04-18 Rah Rah 1936-11-20 Jup 1939-08-03 Sat 1941-12-26 Merc 1944-11-02 Ket 1947-05-20 Ven 1948-06-07 Sun 1951-06-08 Moon 1952-04-30 Mars 1953-11-03 Jup Jup 1954-11-21 Sat 1957-01-07 Merc 1959-07-22 Ket 1961-10-28 Ven 1962-10-04 Sun 1965-06-01 Moon 1966-03-19 Mars 1967-07-22 Rah 1968-06-26 Sat Sat 1970-11-21 Merc 1973-11-24 Ket 1976-08-03 Ven 1977-09-12 Sun 1980-11-12 Moon 1981-10-25 Mars 1983-05-23 Rah 1984-07-02 Jup 1987-05-08 Merc Merc 1989-11-21 Ket 1992-04-15 Ven 1993-04-13 Sun 1996-02-12 Moon 1996-12-20 Mars 1998-05-20 Rah 1999-05-17 Jup 2001-12-06 Sat 2004-03-10 Ket Ket 2006-11-21 Ven 2007-04-16 Sun 2008-06-17 Moon 2008-10-25 Mars 2009-05-23 Rah 2009-10-22 Jup 2010-11-09 Sat 2011-10-17 Merc 2012-11-24 Ven Ven 2013-11-21 Sun 2017-03-19 Moon 2018-03-20 Mars 2019-11-22 Rah 2021-01-19 Jup 2024-01-20 Sat 2026-09-22 Merc 2029-11-21 Ket 2032-09-22

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