Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

December 9, 2003

Dear Ramadas,

Thank you!

>I think you are referring to the Shlokas for Mandi And Gulika.

>Please mention are you referring about Mandi or Gulika ?

>I am attaching the Shlokas once again for your information.

Yes, I was referring to the second of the shlokas in your message to

Chandrashekhar. The attachment doesn't give the translation as well.

Yours,

Dhira Krsna dasa,

Jyotisha

http://www.radhadesh.com

December 9, 2003

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Dhira Krsna Ji,

You are most welcome.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.Dhira Krsna BCS <Dhira.Krsna.BCS wrote:

Dear Ramadas,Thank you!>I think you are referring to the Shlokas for Mandi And Gulika.>Please mention are you referring about Mandi or Gulika ?>I am attaching the Shlokas once again for your information.Yes, I was referring to the second of the shlokas in your message toChandrashekhar. The attachment doesn't give the translation as well.Yours,Dhira Krsna dasa,Jyotishahttp://www.radhadesh.com|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira

December 10, 2003

siyaram!

dear ramdas ji, dhira prabhu, & chandrashekhar ji,

everyone wanted to know what sanjay ji's opinion is regarding gulika & mandi. yesterday i gotto read jyotish digest, there he has clarified the differnce between the two.

for more info, do read it

regards

prashantRamadas Rao <ramadasrao wrote:

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Dhira Krsna Ji,

You are most welcome.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.Dhira Krsna BCS <Dhira.Krsna.BCS wrote:

Dear Ramadas,Thank you!>I think you are referring to the Shlokas for Mandi And Gulika.>Please mention are you referring about Mandi or Gulika ?>I am attaching the Shlokas once again for your information.Yes, I was referring to the second of the shlokas in your message toChandrashekhar. The attachment doesn't give the translation as well.Yours,Dhira Krsna dasa,Jyotishahttp://www.radhadesh.com|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira

December 10, 2003

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Prashant Ji,

I have already given the 2 Shlokas as per Uttara Kalamrita of Kalidasa and their meaning as per translator also.Now in issue of Jyotish Digest Sanjay Ji has written about Gulika and Mandi ? I did not got the last issue till now.Please give me the issue where these informations are available.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

prashant narang <prashantnarang wrote:

siyaram!

dear ramdas ji, dhira prabhu, & chandrashekhar ji,

everyone wanted to know what sanjay ji's opinion is regarding gulika & mandi. yesterday i gotto read jyotish digest, there he has clarified the differnce between the two.

for more info, do read it

regards

prashantRamadas Rao <ramadasrao wrote:

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Dhira Krsna Ji,

You are most welcome.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.Dhira Krsna BCS <Dhira.Krsna.BCS wrote:

Dear Ramadas,Thank you!>I think you are referring to the Shlokas for Mandi And Gulika.>Please mention are you referring about Mandi or Gulika ?>I am attaching the Shlokas once again for your information.Yes, I was referring to the second of the shlokas in your message toChandrashekhar. The attachment doesn't give the translation as well.Yours,Dhira Krsna dasa,Jyotishahttp://www.radhadesh.com|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira

December 10, 2003

Dear Ramdas Raoji,

Thank you for the translations given. I have some queries with respect to the translation of first shloka. The reason is that what is indicated is obviously 4 Ghatika interval between the Parts ruled by respective Varesha and the Ghatikas past Sunrise when the respective Saturn's portion rises depending on the Vara at Sunrise.The Day length is obviously assumed at 30 Ghatikas. This by itself appears to be a crude method as 30 Ghatis divided into 8 parts would give each part equal to 3.75 Ghatis and not 4 Ghatis. This again is why the 8th portion in the shloka gets reduced to 2 Ghatis ( On Sunday the Sun's portion would be 26 Ghatis{30X26/30} per the shloka for 30 Ghati day length and the 8th portion by implication would be 2 Ghatis) This would surely not be the first portion which is supposed to be ruled by Sun. It should as a matter of fact be 3.75 Ghatis. Something appears to be seriously wrong with the interpretation.

Now I give below Mandi's calculations given per Jaatakaadesh Marg.

Jaatakaadesh Marg Chandrika on Mandi P98.

#ò¢ha*avidnaTmjaNt< tÄiÎnaÄavitwe idne y>,

iñöagrahädyävadinätmajäntaà tattaddinättävatithe dine yaù |

maiNd> s @veòogaTmj> SyaÔaÇaE c tTpÂmvasrae´>.

mändiù sa eveñöakhagätmajaù syädrätrau ca tatpaïcamaväsaroktaù||

Rough translation:

Divide day length by 8, count from the Vara at the time of Sunrise in regular order.8th part does not have owner. Saturn’s portion is Mandi Portion. In case of Night do similar division of the time for night but start from 5th Vara Lord from that on the night. Multiply length of the division by the number by which Saturn is distant from the Sunrise Vara Lord to arrive at Mandi spashta.

This appear to match with the calculations of Gulika as given in BPHS.

BPHS CH.3

rivvaraid zNyNt< guilkaid inéPyte,

ravivärädi çanyantaà gulikädi nirupyate|

idvsanòxa ÉKTva varezaNg[yet! ³mat!.

divasänañöadhä bhaktvä väreçängaëayet kramät||

Aòm<zae inrIz> SyaCDNy<zae guilk> Sm & t>,

añöamaàço niréçaù syäcchanyaàço gulikaù småtaù |

raiÇrPyòxa k«Tva varezaTp<cmaidt>.

rätrirapyañöadhä kåtvä väreçätpaïcamäditaù ||

I am aware that in subsequent translation of the shloka Gulika is said to be at the beginning of the Saturn's portion, but the actual meaning should be that the day length is to be calculated per the place (wrt. Longitude and Latitude) (Svasvdeshshajam). What is indicated, is that the Ghatis that indicate end of the part of Saturn added to Lagna spashta would indicate Mandi/Gulika Spashta. If we take the Translator's interpretation, then for a Sunday birth at the time of Sunrise both Sun and Kaala would have identical Lagna spashta and they would be in Grahayuddha. This appears to be against the very principles on which the Planetary Vela rulers are given.

The above two shlokas make it clear that Mandi and Gulika are identical.

Of course this is what I think would be the correct interpretation and others more learned than me might have different opinion.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:49 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekhar Ji,

No,there is no trouble at all.Actually I have already gave the interpretation of the 2 Shlokas by the translator and here again I am giving the same.

MANDI : Shloka 1 :

On the week days reckoned from Sunday onwards multiply the Dinamana ( Length of the day between Sun Rise and Sun set )respectively by Charu (26),Khari (22),Jata (18),Vayo (14),Nata (10 ),Tanu (6) and Roon (2) and divide the product by Khanga (30 )and the quotient arrived at in Ghatikas and Palas etc.,taken as Ishta,compute the Lagna.The Lagna discovered will be Mandi Sphuta.The 8th part of the Dinamana or that of the Ratrimana is the period of each planet.When the birth is during the day,the lords of the 1st 7 Muhurtas beginning with Sunday onwards will be respectively be the Sun,Moon,Mars,Mercury,Jupiter,Venus and Saturn.

Here the words Charu,Khari etc.have been interpreted with the help of Katapayadi system.

GULIKA Shloka 2 :

The 8th Muhurta has no lord.In the case of day births the portion belonging to Saturn is called Gulika.In the case of night births,the lords of 1st to 7 Muhurtas will be in the same order as stated above in Shloka 1,but the lord of the 1st 7 Muhurtas are reckoned not from the lord of the week day chosen ,but from that of the 5th from it.Here also the portion belonging to saturn will be taken as that of Gulika.But Gulika will be from the last portion of Saturn ie.,at the end of Ghatikas 10,6,2,26,22,18 and 14 respectively. Gulika and Mandi are 2 sons of Saturn and as per Mandvya Rishi,they are most harmful.Wherever they are posited they destroy the effects of that Bhava completely unless some benefic aspect is there.

Now example Gulika has to be calculated in the case of day birth on Monday,Dinaman will be 32 Ghatikas.Therefore 32 / 8 will be 4 Ghatikas for one Muhurta.Count upto Saturday from Monday.It is 6th in order.Hence 6 Multiplied by 4 = 24 Ghatikas.This is Gulika's Ishta kala as desired.This will help in computing Gulika's Sphuta.

I hope this helps you.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Ramdas Rao,

Thank you for the trouble you have taken on my behalf.I have read the shlokas and they appear to give identical calculations. May be I am wrong. Would be kind enough to send the translation by the commentator, so that I can find out where I am making a mistake.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Friday, December 05, 2003 1:38 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekhar Ji,

Here below I give the Shlokas given in Uttara Kalamrita of Kalidasa for Mandi :

caé> oair jqa vyae nq tnU ên< *umanaht<

oa<gaÝ< rivvasraid"iqkaStTkalme mNdj>,

raÇaemaRnmh>àma[mihhœTo{fàma[< Éve-

dkaR*azinvasraNtidvse vareñrat! o{fpa>.

cäruù khäri jaöä vayo naöa tanü rünaà dyumänähataà

khäìgäptaà raviväsarädighaöikästatkälame mandajaù|

rätrormänamahaùpramäëamahihtkhaëòapramäëaà bhave-

darkädyäçaniväsaräntadivase väreçvarät khaëòapäù||

The meaning of the above Shloka has already been given in my previous mail.

Now I give below also the calculation Shloka for Gulika which is mentioned in the same Uttara Kalamrita.( A letter has missed in sha..damsha ? ) :

ANTya<zae ih inrIñrStu guilk> zd<zkStiÚzae

varezaidh pNcmaidt Ay< o{fatÉe<ze Évet!,

Syata< mNdsutavuÉavitolaivTyevmUce muin-

maR{fVy> ikl yÇ taE invstaE tÇEv hainàdaE.

antyäàço hi niréçvarastu gulikaù çadaàçakastanniço

väreçädiha pancamädita ayaà khaëòätabheàçe bhavet|

syätäà mandasutävubhävatikhalävityevamüce muni-

rmäëòavyaù kila yatra tau nivasatau tatraiva hänipradau||

I hope this helps you.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Ramdas Raoji,

I have no doubt that what you are saying is correct. My skepticism arises out of the fact that no body has so far quoted, from an ancient text, a shloka which clearly states that Gulika and Mandi are different, whereas Jataka Paarijaata clearly does indicate that they are one and so does the Chaukhamba edition of BPHS, at least to my knowledge.Even the Khairatilal edition used by R. Santanam does not mention separate calculation for Mandi. You know my horoscope and certainly understand the reason for my line of thinking. I have an unfortunate habit of trusting the ancient texts, but not necessarily the modern commentator's interpretation if it apparently goes against the logic of the text. I do not mean any disrespect to the commentators but this is the way I approach any complex subject.

M.R. Bhat was no doubt a renowned astrologer, but not having read his book, I can not comment on it. I have already said that perhaps Sanjay has some ancient text which does mention it and I am looking forward to his comments.

Till such time that Sanjay clarifies the situation, let us agree to hold our own views in the matter.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:04 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekar Ji,

Thanks for the mail.I am against your statements made about Gulika and Mandi.You have referred to Jataka Parijata which we have to respect but other ancient classics like Sarvartha Chintamani,Prashna Margam and Uttara Kalamrita have mentioned that both these are different.

I have a great respect for you and your knowledge.Even Mr.M.R.Bhat in his book " Fundamentals of Astrology " also he gave the method of calculating both Gulika and Mandi.Mr.M.R.Bhat wrote many books and he translated also Varaha Mihira's Brihat Samhita.Till now I did'nt find anybody other than Mr.Bhat who has translated this monumental classic in English.Of course Mr.M.R.Bhat is no more now.

This is for your information.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Ramdasraoji,

I was just pointing to Rao Nemani, the logic missing in the arguments advanced in favour of Mandi and Gulika being different. Many texts could have different interpretations, no doubt. The reason I was pointing it out was that if jataka Parijata is not to be considered( though I do not know why) and one is to stick to BPHS, then the fact of the shlokas having been collected from different sources makes it necessary to look at all the editions before arriving at any conclusions.Gulika/ Mandi rule over the time allotted to Saturn and since the duration is of the Day/ Night it is obvious that Mandi sphuta will always be related to Sun rise/set as well as the weekday and sphuta will be beginning of the period lorded over by Saturn. Similar calculations are indicated for other UpaGrahas of different planet. How the concept of Gulika spashta being at a place different than beginning of the Saturn's time zone has come is not clear to me. May be there is some other classic which mentions it unambiguously.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Friday, November 28, 2003 8:48 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekhar Ji,

I agree with you that Parashara Maharshi in BPHS ( translated by Sri G.C.Sharma ) says that both Gulika and Mandi are the same.But in Kalidasa's Uttara Kalamrita,he is very clear that both Gulika and Mandi are different and he says as per Mandavya Rishi ,these are 2 most harmful upagrahas and considers both as different Upagrahas of Shani.Shloka-7 deals about calculation of Mandi where he says " On the week days reckoned from Sunday onwards multiply the Dinamana ( length of the day from Sun Rise to Sun Set ) respectively by Charu ( 26 ),Khari ( 22 ),Jata ( 18 ),Vayo ( 14 ),Nata ( 10 ),Tanu (6 ),and Roon ( 2) and divide the product by Khanga (30 ) and the quotient arrived at in Ghatikas and Palas etc.,taken as Ishta,compute the Lagna.The Lagna discovered will be MANDI SPHUTA.The 8th part of the Dinamana or that of Ratri mana is the period of each planet.When the birth is during the day,the lords of 1st 7 muhurtas beginning with Sunday onwards will respectively be the Sun.Moon,Mars,Mercury,Jupiter,Venus and Saturn.For night births,5th day lord will be taken into consideration. Here the words Charu,Khari etc.have been interpreted with the help of Katapayadi system."

Now Shloka-8 says " The 8th Muhurta has no lord.In the case of day births,the portion belonging to saturn is called GULIKA.In case of night births,the lord of the 1st to 7 Muhurtas will be the same order as stated above,but the lord of the 1st 7 Muhurtas are reckoned not from the lord of the week day chosen,but from that of the 5th from it.Here alos the portion belonging to Saturn will be taken as that of Gulika.But Gulika will be from the last portion of Saturn ie.,at the end of Ghatikas 10,6,2,26,22,28 and 14 respectively.

More about Gulika and Mandi can be read from The Astrological Magazine Nov.97 and March 98,editorial by Smt.Gayatri Devi Vasudev.

The Shlokas 7 and 8 from Uttara Kalamrita,I can not quote here as some Sanskrit letters are missing in my book.

I hope this clarifies the controversy about Gulika and Mandi.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Rao,

As a matter of fact I had decided not to elaborate on this as almost everyone was convinced that Gulika and Mandi are separate. I thought the discussion was going in no direction.Once a person makes up his mind it is difficult for one to see reason.I was afraid of hurting anyone's sentiments by my straight forward style of writing. However I think I know you well and am therefore responding.

Think about this, does BPHS shloka 4-25-30 say Mandi(Gulika)? You will find this is not so. Also try to find out whether Parashara has mentioned Gulika and Mandi being separate UpaGrahas in any shloka? I have already given the shloka carried in the Chaukhamba edition of BPHS, where Parashara indicates that Mandi and Gulika are same, but no body has so far taken pains to verify that edition.

Jataka Parijata unambiguously states Gulika as one of the names of Mandi. Again Parashar has no where mentioned Gulika and Mandi as separate entities, and has not given how to calculate Mandi separately for that reason. Otherwise it is difficult to explain why having given details of how to calculate even Paridhi, Indrachapa etc., much less used indicators in astrology, and chooses to skip Mandi calculations as if on a whim. The reason is obvious, they are identical.

Now coming to Shloka 23 Chapter 16, read again what you have written. Can one then extend the same logic and assume that CH.3 Shloka 21 Says Guru Kuja Shani, Arka etc. and does not mention them as Jeeva Dharaputra, Surya Putra, and Surya there; but does so in Shloka 22 but does not mention earlier names in that shloka these are different planets? Certainly not, I presume.

Read other examples up to example 5 and tell me why Arka should not be treated as something other than Surya if this logic is to be applied. As to point 6. where do you find mention of the word Gulika in the Sutra? Gulika is mentioned by the translator as he understands them to be synonymous.

I think one yardstick should be applied to any form of interpretation accepted, but this is seldom done. However what is done is that synonyms are accepted for other planets from texts other than BPHS and when it comes to Mandi we want synonym to be specifically mentioned by Parashara. This even if he does so but it is not seen in the edition we possess.

It would be better if we begin understanding how the different editions came into being before saying there is nothing beyond BPHS. That Brihat Parashara Hora Sara is the most exhaustive treatise is not in doubt. What is in doubt is whether all the shlokas available have been located and whether, through inadvertent oversight, shlokas from source other than Parashara have crept in the edition at hand.

If I sound harsh,please excuse me. I did not intend to be. I am only trying to point out where application of logic is necessary. If one wants to stick to one text, there is no harm. But confusion arises when one calculates from one text say Gulika and then goes on and takes Mandi's calculations from other text, and then wants to exclude that text when understanding whether Mandi and Gulika are the same. Of course those having access to more ancient texts could throw more light on this. I am certainly open to correction if some logical explanation is forthcoming.

Hope this helps,

Chandrashekhar.

Rao Nemani [raon1008]Thursday, November 27, 2003 3:35 AMvarahamihira Subject: Re: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activateHare Rama KrishnaNamaste ChandraShekhar Ji,I am reading this thread with a great interest and learningquite a few things here. Having said that, if Mandi and Gulika are the same then, why they are treated as two separate UpaGrahas and why not we could call them like, Chandra/Soma, Sura/Ravi etc.,Also, please educate me on why the placements of Mandi andGulika have a separate meanings in the Rasi, Navamsa and otherDivisional Charts as per some classics. For example:-1) BPHS : Chapter-4: Shlokas : 25-4025-30. Nishek Lagn. O excellent of Brahmins, now is a step explained to arrive at the Nishek Lagn, when the natal Lagn is known. Note the angular distance between Shani and Mandi (Gulika). Add this to the difference between the Lagn Bhava (Madhya, or cusp) and the 9th Bhava (cusp). The resultant product in Râúis, degrees etc. will represent the months, days etc., that elapsed between Nishek and birth. *** Note, here Mandi and Gulika are treated as SAME.2) BPHS : Chapter-16 : Sholkas : 2323. Should Mandi be in Lagna, while Lagn's Lord is in fall, grief on account of loss of child at the age of 56 will come to pass.** Note: here Mandi and Gulika are treated as separate,becuse it was not mentioned like the previous Sholkaas Mandi(Gulika).3) Hora Sara of Prithuyasa : Chapter 24:Should Yuvati and Randhr Bhava be occupied by malefic Grahas, while Lagns lord is in fall in Rasii, or Navamsh, one born in Gulik Kala will destroy his family.** Note: here Mandi and Gulika are treated as separate4) Hora Sara of Prithuyasa : Chapter 6:Should Surya and Candr be in Lagn and benefics be in a Bhava other than a Kendr, or Randhr Bhava, one born in Gulikas Muhurta will live up to 36.** Note: here Mandi and Gulika are treated as separate4) Hora Sara of Prithuyasa : Chapter 2:Mandi, the son of Sani, has many colours. Rahus colour is dark collyrium (blue mix). Although the Rasis have pleasing colours, these are changed according to the occupants.** Note: here Mandi and Gulika are treated as separate5) Jaimini Sutras: ADHYAYA 1- PADA 2SU. 29. - Sagulike vishado vishahato va. If the Karaka Navamsa falls in Gulikakala or the time governed by Gulika, the person will administer poison to others and kill them or be killed by suchadministrations of poison by others.**Note: Here Mandi and Gulika are treated separate6) Jaimini Sutras: ADHYAYA 2-PADA 2SU. 19. Mundamandibhyam vishasarpaja lodbandhanadibhihi. If the 3rd from Lagna or Karaka is occupied by Sani and Gulika, the person will die from the effects of poison, from snakes; from chains and shakles and from water.***Note: Here Mandi and Gulika are treated as SAME.Thanks for teaching me this so that I can understand better on these two Upagrahas.RegardsRaghunadha Raovarahamihira , "Chandrashekhar Sharma" <boxdel> wrote:> Dear Dhira Krishna dasa,> I appreciate your support. I too am awaiting Sanjay's comments and source.> Regards,> Chandrashekhar.> > Dhira Krsna BCS [Dhira.Krsna.BCS@p...]> Wednesday, November 26, 2003 2:27 AM> varahamihira > |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to> activate> > > Dear Chandrashekhar,> > I agree with Mandi being same with Gulik. The translation of Mandi is:> 'son of Manda' while Manda is another name for Shani. Gulik is the son of> Shani, so there are one and the same. However, I have a doubt in the> calculation of Mandi-Gulik. In Jaimini Sutras Sanjay Rath has described> Gulik as being the end of Saturn's portion of day or night respectively,> yet later on I see in his books that he changed to the opinion of> beginning of Saturn's portion and makes a distinction between Gulik and> Mandi. Maybe Sanjay Rath could enlighten us further on this?> > Yours,> Dhira Krsna dasa,> Jyotisha> http://www.radhadesh.com> >

December 11, 2003

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekhar Ji,

In the example I gave for Gulika's calculation, I wrote for a Monday example and the Dinamana was 32 Ghatikas and divided by 8 gives 4 Ghatikas.

Now to understand further I give below simplae calculations for both Mandi and Gulika based on your birth data.

Date of Birth : 26-1-1946 At 4-20 AM.Longitude : 79 E18' and Latitude : 19 N 57'.Sun rise on 26th : 6-50-54 AM and Sun set on 25th : 6-0-11 PM.Birth was on Friday night

CALCULATION OF MANDI :

Sun set : 18-00-11 Hrs.

Sun Rise ( On 27th ) : 06:50:34 AM.

So Ratrimana : 18:00:11 - 06:50:34 = 12:50:23 Hrs.= 32-6 Ghatikas.

As the birth was on Friday night after Sun set,for calculation of MANDI,we have to take 5th from Friday ie.,Tuesday which is 18 Ghatikas.

Now 32-6/30 Into 18 = 19:15:36 Ghatikas and this will be 7:42:14.4 Hrs.

So MANDI's Sphuta : 7:42:14.4 + 18:00:11 = 25:42:25.4 = 1:42:25.4.

Now 1:42:25.4 - 0:12:48 ( Time difference between GMT and local time )= 1:29:37.4 + 0:0:15 ( correction for 1:29:37.4) = 1:29:52.4.

Now if we see the Sidereal time at noon on 26th Jan 1946 is 8:18:12.

1:29:52.4 + 8:18:12 = 9:48:4.4

Now if we see the table of Ascendants for 20 Deg.Latitude,we get 6 S 29 Deg.27' ie., Tula 29 Deg.27' will be the longitude of MANDI.

The above calculations are roughly and you can make this precisely.

GULIKA SPHUTA :

We know that Ratrimana on 26th is 12:50:23 Hrs.

Now divide this by 8 gives 1:36:17.87 Hrs. each.As the day of birth was Friday,count from 5th day ie.,Tuesday,Wednesday,Thursday and Friday.5th day is ruled by Shani and so 1:36:17.87 Hrs. multiplied by 4 gives 6:25:11.48 Hrs from Sun set and this is the beginning of Shani's portion.

So Saturn's portion begins at :

18:00:11 + 6:25:11.48 = 24:25:22.48 Hrs. = 00:25:22.48 Hrs. LMT.

So GULIKA rises at 00:25:22.48 Hrs LMT.

Now 0:25:22.48 + 8: 18:12 ( ST on 26/1/1946 ) =8:43:40.4.

Adding corrections ie.,0:1:26 to 8:43:40.4 = 8:45:6.4 Hrs.

Now go to the table of ascendants and see where this 8:45:6.4 Hrs.falls which by interpolation gives 6S 15 Deg.19'13".

So GULIKA SPHUTA WILL BE TULA 15 DEG.19'13".

So here eventhough both Mandi and Gulika are in same house but their longitudes are different.

I hope this calculation helps you.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Ramdas Raoji,

Thank you for the translations given. I have some queries with respect to the translation of first shloka. The reason is that what is indicated is obviously 4 Ghatika interval between the Parts ruled by respective Varesha and the Ghatikas past Sunrise when the respective Saturn's portion rises depending on the Vara at Sunrise.The Day length is obviously assumed at 30 Ghatikas. This by itself appears to be a crude method as 30 Ghatis divided into 8 parts would give each part equal to 3.75 Ghatis and not 4 Ghatis. This again is why the 8th portion in the shloka gets reduced to 2 Ghatis ( On Sunday the Sun's portion would be 26 Ghatis{30X26/30} per the shloka for 30 Ghati day length and the 8th portion by implication would be 2 Ghatis) This would surely not be the first portion which is supposed to be ruled by Sun. It should as a matter of fact be 3.75 Ghatis. Something appears to be seriously wrong

with the interpretation.

Now I give below Mandi's calculations given per Jaatakaadesh Marg.

Jaatakaadesh Marg Chandrika on Mandi P98.

#ò¢ha*avidnaTmjaNt< tÄiÎnaÄavitwe idne y>,

iñöagrahädyävadinätmajäntaà tattaddinättävatithe dine yaù |

maiNd> s @veòogaTmj> SyaÔaÇaE c tTpÂmvasrae´>.

mändiù sa eveñöakhagätmajaù syädrätrau ca tatpaïcamaväsaroktaù||

Rough translation:

Divide day length by 8, count from the Vara at the time of Sunrise in regular order.8th part does not have owner. Saturn’s portion is Mandi Portion. In case of Night do similar division of the time for night but start from 5th Vara Lord from that on the night. Multiply length of the division by the number by which Saturn is distant from the Sunrise Vara Lord to arrive at Mandi spashta.

This appear to match with the calculations of Gulika as given in BPHS.

BPHS CH.3

rivvaraid zNyNt< guilkaid inéPyte,

ravivärädi çanyantaà gulikädi nirupyate|

idvsanòxa ÉKTva varezaNg[yet! ³mat!.

divasänañöadhä bhaktvä väreçängaëayet kramät||

Aòm<zae inrIz> SyaCDNy<zae guilk> Sm & t>,

añöamaàço niréçaù syäcchanyaàço gulikaù småtaù |

raiÇrPyòxa k«Tva varezaTp<cmaidt>.

rätrirapyañöadhä kåtvä väreçätpaïcamäditaù ||

I am aware that in subsequent translation of the shloka Gulika is said to be at the beginning of the Saturn's portion, but the actual meaning should be that the day length is to be calculated per the place (wrt. Longitude and Latitude) (Svasvdeshshajam). What is indicated, is that the Ghatis that indicate end of the part of Saturn added to Lagna spashta would indicate Mandi/Gulika Spashta. If we take the Translator's interpretation, then for a Sunday birth at the time of Sunrise both Sun and Kaala would have identical Lagna spashta and they would be in Grahayuddha. This appears to be against the very principles on which the Planetary Vela

rulers are given.

The above two shlokas make it clear that Mandi and Gulika are identical.

Of course this is what I think would be the correct interpretation and others more learned than me might have different opinion.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:49 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekhar Ji,

No,there is no trouble at all.Actually I have already gave the interpretation of the 2 Shlokas by the translator and here again I am giving the same.

MANDI : Shloka 1 :

On the week days reckoned from Sunday onwards multiply the Dinamana ( Length of the day between Sun Rise and Sun set )respectively by Charu (26),Khari (22),Jata (18),Vayo (14),Nata (10 ),Tanu (6) and Roon (2) and divide the product by Khanga (30 )and the quotient arrived at in Ghatikas and Palas etc.,taken as Ishta,compute the Lagna.The Lagna discovered will be Mandi Sphuta.The 8th part of the Dinamana or that of the Ratrimana is the period of each planet.When the birth is during the day,the lords of the 1st 7 Muhurtas beginning with Sunday onwards will be respectively be the Sun,Moon,Mars,Mercury,Jupiter,Venus and Saturn.

Here the words Charu,Khari etc.have been interpreted with the help of Katapayadi system.

GULIKA Shloka 2 :

The 8th Muhurta has no lord.In the case of day births the portion belonging to Saturn is called Gulika.In the case of night births,the lords of 1st to 7 Muhurtas will be in the same order as stated above in Shloka 1,but the lord of the 1st 7 Muhurtas are reckoned not from the lord of the week day chosen ,but from that of the 5th from it.Here also the portion belonging to saturn will be taken as that of Gulika.But Gulika will be from the last portion of Saturn ie.,at the end of Ghatikas 10,6,2,26,22,18 and 14 respectively. Gulika and Mandi are 2 sons of Saturn and as per Mandvya Rishi,they are most harmful.Wherever they are posited they destroy the effects of that Bhava completely unless some benefic aspect is there.

Now example Gulika has to be calculated in the case of day birth on Monday,Dinaman will be 32 Ghatikas.Therefore 32 / 8 will be 4 Ghatikas for one Muhurta.Count upto Saturday from Monday.It is 6th in order.Hence 6 Multiplied by 4 = 24 Ghatikas.This is Gulika's Ishta kala as desired.This will help in computing Gulika's Sphuta.

I hope this helps you.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Ramdas Rao,

Thank you for the trouble you have taken on my behalf.I have read the shlokas and they appear to give identical calculations. May be I am wrong. Would be kind enough to send the translation by the commentator, so that I can find out where I am making a mistake.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Friday, December 05, 2003 1:38 AMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekhar Ji,

Here below I give the Shlokas given in Uttara Kalamrita of Kalidasa for Mandi :

caé> oair jqa vyae nq tnU ên< *umanaht<

oa<gaÝ< rivvasraid"iqkaStTkalme mNdj>,

raÇaemaRnmh>àma[mihhœTo{fàma[< Éve-

dkaR*azinvasraNtidvse vareñrat! o{fpa>.

cäruù khäri jaöä vayo naöa tanü rünaà dyumänähataà

khäìgäptaà raviväsarädighaöikästatkälame mandajaù|

rätrormänamahaùpramäëamahihtkhaëòapramäëaà bhave-

darkädyäçaniväsaräntadivase väreçvarät khaëòapäù||

The meaning of the above Shloka has already been given in my previous mail.

Now I give below also the calculation Shloka for Gulika which is mentioned in the same Uttara Kalamrita.( A letter has missed in sha..damsha ? ) :

ANTya<zae ih inrIñrStu guilk> zd<zkStiÚzae

varezaidh pNcmaidt Ay< o{fatÉe<ze Évet!,

Syata< mNdsutavuÉavitolaivTyevmUce muin-

maR{fVy> ikl yÇ taE invstaE tÇEv hainàdaE.

antyäàço hi niréçvarastu gulikaù çadaàçakastanniço

väreçädiha pancamädita ayaà khaëòätabheàçe bhavet|

syätäà mandasutävubhävatikhalävityevamüce muni-

rmäëòavyaù kila yatra tau nivasatau tatraiva hänipradau||

I hope this helps you.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Ramdas Raoji,

I have no doubt that what you are saying is correct. My skepticism arises out of the fact that no body has so far quoted, from an ancient text, a shloka which clearly states that Gulika and Mandi are different, whereas Jataka Paarijaata clearly does indicate that they are one and so does the Chaukhamba edition of BPHS, at least to my knowledge.Even the Khairatilal edition used by R. Santanam does not mention separate calculation for Mandi. You know my horoscope and certainly understand the reason for my line of thinking. I have an unfortunate habit of trusting the ancient texts, but not necessarily the modern commentator's interpretation if it apparently goes against the logic of the text. I do not mean any disrespect to the commentators but this is the way I approach any complex subject.

M.R. Bhat was no doubt a renowned astrologer, but not having read his book, I can not comment on it. I have already said that perhaps Sanjay has some ancient text which does mention it and I am looking forward to his comments.

Till such time that Sanjay clarifies the situation, let us agree to hold our own views in the matter.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:04 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekar Ji,

Thanks for the mail.I am against your statements made about Gulika and Mandi.You have referred to Jataka Parijata which we have to respect but other ancient classics like Sarvartha Chintamani,Prashna Margam and Uttara Kalamrita have mentioned that both these are different.

I have a great respect for you and your knowledge.Even Mr.M.R.Bhat in his book " Fundamentals of Astrology " also he gave the method of calculating both Gulika and Mandi.Mr.M.R.Bhat wrote many books and he translated also Varaha Mihira's Brihat Samhita.Till now I did'nt find anybody other than Mr.Bhat who has translated this monumental classic in English.Of course Mr.M.R.Bhat is no more now.

This is for your information.

With Sri Hari Vaayu Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.Chandrashekhar Sharma <boxdel wrote:

Dear Ramdasraoji,

I was just pointing to Rao Nemani, the logic missing in the arguments advanced in favour of Mandi and Gulika being different. Many texts could have different interpretations, no doubt. The reason I was pointing it out was that if jataka Parijata is not to be considered( though I do not know why) and one is to stick to BPHS, then the fact of the shlokas having been collected from different sources makes it necessary to look at all the editions before arriving at any conclusions.Gulika/ Mandi rule over the time allotted to Saturn and since the duration is of the Day/ Night it is obvious that Mandi sphuta will always be related to Sun rise/set as well as the weekday and sphuta will be beginning of the period lorded over by Saturn. Similar calculations are indicated for other UpaGrahas of different planet. How the concept of Gulika spashta being at a place different than beginning of the Saturn's time zone has come

is not clear to me. May be there is some other classic which mentions it unambiguously.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar.

Ramadas Rao [ramadasrao]Friday, November 28, 2003 8:48 PMvarahamihira Subject: RE: |Sri Varaha| Badhaka Discussion: Mandi (Gulika) or Kharesha to activate

` nmae naray[ay,

om namo näräyaëäya|Dear Chandrashekhar Ji,

I agree with you that Parashara Maharshi in BPHS ( translated by Sri G.C.Sharma ) says that both Gulika and Mandi are the same.But in Kalidasa's Uttara Kalamrita,he is very clear that both Gulika and Mandi are different and he says as per Mandavya Rishi ,these are 2 most harmful upagrahas and considers both as different Upagrahas of Shani.Shloka-7 deals about calculation of Mandi where he says " On the week days reckoned from Sunday onwards multiply the Dinamana ( length of the day from Sun Rise to Sun Set ) respectively by Charu ( 26 ),Khari ( 22 ),Jata ( 18 ),Vayo ( 14 ),Nata ( 10 ),Tanu (6 ),and Roon ( 2) and divide the product by Khanga (30 ) and the quotient arrived at in Ghatikas and Palas etc.,taken as Ishta,compute the Lagna.The Lagna discovered will be MANDI SPHUTA.The 8th part of the Dinamana or that of Ratri mana is the period of each planet.When the birth is during the day,the lords of 1st 7 muhurtas

beginning with Sunday onwards will respectively be the Sun.Moon,Mars,Mercury,Jupiter,Venus and Saturn.For night births,5th day lord will be taken into consideration. Here the words Charu,Khari etc.have been interpreted with the help of Katapayadi system."