Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| Namaste, Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which are explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 rudras and Indra & Prajapati. In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is mapped to a graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and nakshetras. My questions are: (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? To explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets and 5 tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion logic based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall exert the maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that the force of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two bodies. (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of observation/logic was used here? © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come only after this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we explain why we chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw a hint that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two? (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in greater detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a list of the adityas is given in VRA. regards Hari Get better spam protection with Mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 ::Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya:: Dear Hari ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| Namaste, Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which are explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 rudras and Indra & Prajapati. In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is mapped to a graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and nakshetras. My questions are: (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? To explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets and 5 tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion logic based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall exert the maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that the force of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two bodies. [sanjay Rath:] This is a part of the sapta-pachatmika tatva. Why do we have to exclude 3 planets?? There are 7 planets i.e. luminaries and 5 grahas within the loka loka mountains (at the outer boundary formed by the geo-centric motion of saturn). Rahu and Ketu are the nodes of the Moon..realise that EVERY PLANET has a RAHU & KETU and we are only interested in the nodes of the Moon, so they come into the picture due to the mana karaka. Yes we do, but can we say that such a motion is directly afecting the quality of our lives without any relevant studies...one day some SJC astrologer, maybe 50 years from now will be able to prove it. (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of observation/logic was used here?[sanjay Rath:] Good question - Sristi Karana may have the answer along with the sapta pancatmika tatva © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come only after this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we explain why we chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw a hint that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two?[sanjay Rath:] The solar flare cycle is for 11 years..the first Upagraha Dhooma is also the begining of the 11th naksatra (if mapped from zero Aries instead of Sun) and represents the time of the day which is the hotest part. There must be a link to the death coming every 11 years..remember the example I gave to prove the validity of the Nadi where the death occured 11 years at 59 years before the predicted date of 70 years. (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in greater detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a list of the adityas is given in VRA.[sanjay Rath:] They are explained in detail in the Puranas and other standard literature..Vishnu is the purest, Indra is the strongest and younger brother of Surya and so on. regards Hari [sanjay Rath:] Best wishes SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| pranäms Sanjay, Most of your answers are from left field (or a googly if you like to term it in cricketing parlance) and I have to search the non-existent library in my room which till now consists only of Sanjay Raths books and Narasimhas book! Perhaps I should read Thompsons book to get an idea of this Brahmanda concept. I assume that our ancients were not fools and definitely knew that there were at least 9 planets in the solar system. Hence I asked this question about exclusion. But if you say that every planet has a Rahu and Ketu, what is the Rahu and Ketu for Jupiter and Saturn who have many, many moons; and for Venus and Mercury which have no moon? Rest of your comments, you have given good clues to pursue. Hopefully, when we meet... regards Hariguruji wrote: ::Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya:: Dear Hari ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| Namaste, Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which are explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 rudras and Indra & Prajapati. In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is mapped to a graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and nakshetras. My questions are: (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? To explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets and 5 tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion logic based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall exert the maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that the force of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two bodies. [sanjay Rath:] This is a part of the sapta-pachatmika tatva. Why do we have to exclude 3 planets?? There are 7 planets i.e. luminaries and 5 grahas within the loka loka mountains (at the outer boundary formed by the geo-centric motion of saturn). Rahu and Ketu are the nodes of the Moon..realise that EVERY PLANET has a RAHU & KETU and we are only interested in the nodes of the Moon, so they come into the picture due to the mana karaka. Yes we do, but can we say that such a motion is directly afecting the quality of our lives without any relevant studies...one day some SJC astrologer, maybe 50 years from now will be able to prove it. (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of observation/logic was used here?[sanjay Rath:] Good question - Sristi Karana may have the answer along with the sapta pancatmika tatva © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come only after this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we explain why we chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw a hint that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two?[sanjay Rath:] The solar flare cycle is for 11 years..the first Upagraha Dhooma is also the begining of the 11th naksatra (if mapped from zero Aries instead of Sun) and represents the time of the day which is the hotest part. There must be a link to the death coming every 11 years..remember the example I gave to prove the validity of the Nadi where the death occured 11 years at 59 years before the predicted date of 70 years. (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in greater detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a list of the adityas is given in VRA.[sanjay Rath:] They are explained in detail in the Puranas and other standard literature..Vishnu is the purest, Indra is the strongest and younger brother of Surya and so on. regards Hari [sanjay Rath:] Best wishes SR Get better spam protection with Mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Dear Hari Moon as a planet in astrology has its rahu and ketu, that its two nodes. You are talking about moons of different planets such as saturn and jupiter, whereas the concept is of the two nodes of each and every planet themselves. Node is an astronomical due to elliptical orbits. best wishes partha varahamihira , Hari M <onlyhari> wrote: > ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| > > > pranäms Sanjay, > > Most of your answers are from left field (or a googly if you like to term it in cricketing parlance) and I have to search the non- existent library in my room which till now consists only of Sanjay Raths books and Narasimhas book! > > Perhaps I should read Thompsons book to get an idea of this Brahmanda concept. I assume that our ancients were not fools and definitely knew that there were at least 9 planets in the solar system. Hence I asked this question about exclusion. > > But if you say that every planet has a Rahu and Ketu, what is the Rahu and Ketu for Jupiter and Saturn who have many, many moons; and for Venus and Mercury which have no moon? > > Rest of your comments, you have given good clues to pursue. Hopefully, when we meet... > > regards > > Hari > guruji@s... wrote: > > > > ::Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya:: > Dear Hari > > > ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| > > Namaste, > > Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which are explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 rudras and Indra & Prajapati. > > In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is mapped to a graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and nakshetras. My questions are: > > (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? To explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets and 5 tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion logic based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall exert the maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that the force of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two bodies. > [sanjay Rath:] This is a part of the sapta-pachatmika tatva. > Why do we have to exclude 3 planets?? There are 7 planets i.e. luminaries and 5 grahas within the loka loka mountains (at the outer boundary formed by the geo-centric motion of saturn). Rahu and Ketu are the nodes of the Moon..realise that EVERY PLANET has a RAHU & KETU and we are only interested in the nodes of the Moon, so they come into the picture due to the mana karaka. > Yes we do, but can we say that such a motion is directly afecting the quality of our lives without any relevant studies...one day some SJC astrologer, maybe 50 years from now will be able to prove it. > > (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of observation/logic was used here? > [sanjay Rath:] Good question - Sristi Karana may have the answer along with the sapta pancatmika tatva > > © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come only after this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we explain why we chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw a hint that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two? > [sanjay Rath:] The solar flare cycle is for 11 years..the first Upagraha Dhooma is also the begining of the 11th naksatra (if mapped from zero Aries instead of Sun) and represents the time of the day which is the hotest part. There must be a link to the death coming every 11 years..remember the example I gave to prove the validity of the Nadi where the death occured 11 years at 59 years before the predicted date of 70 years. > > (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in greater detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a list of the adityas is given in VRA. > [sanjay Rath:] They are explained in detail in the Puranas and other standard literature..Vishnu is the purest, Indra is the strongest and younger brother of Surya and so on. > > regards > Hari > > [sanjay Rath:] Best wishes > SR > > > > |Om Tat Sat| > http://www.varahamihira > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| Dear Partha, Rahu and Ketu are considered to be the grahas that have the power to destroy the luminaries, is it not? The luminaries for Earth (Bhu-loka) are the Sun and the Moon. Mathematically or geometrically, Rahu and Ketu are defined by the intersection points of the plane of the moons orbit around the Earth with that of the Earths orbit around the Sun. Now take a planet which has no moon or a planet which has 20 moons. How would you define Ra & Ke? Yes, I do understand that Sanjay is talking of different planets having their own Rahu and Ketu but I am trying to understand how in the light of the definition given to us. regards Hari"V.Partha sarathy" <partvinu5 wrote: Dear HariMoon as a planet in astrology has its rahu and ketu, that its two nodes. You are talking about moons of different planets such as saturn and jupiter, whereas the concept is of the two nodes of each and every planet themselves. Node is an astronomical due to elliptical orbits.best wishesparthavarahamihira , Hari M <onlyhari> wrote:> ||Om Brihaspataye Namah||> > > pranäms Sanjay,> > Most of your answers are from left field (or a googly if you like to term it in cricketing parlance) and I have to search the non-existent library in my room which till now consists only of Sanjay Raths books and Narasimhas book! > > Perhaps I should read Thompsons book to get an idea of this Brahmanda concept. I assume that our ancients were not fools and definitely knew that there were at least 9 planets in the solar system. Hence I asked this question about exclusion. > > But if you say that every planet has a Rahu and Ketu, what is the Rahu and Ketu for Jupiter and Saturn who have many, many moons; and for Venus and Mercury which have no moon?> > Rest of your comments, you have given good clues to pursue. Hopefully, when we meet...> > regards> > Hari> guruji@s... wrote:> > > > ::Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya::> Dear Hari> > > ||Om Brihaspataye Namah||> > Namaste,> > Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which are explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 rudras and Indra & Prajapati.> > In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is mapped to a graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and nakshetras. My questions are:> > (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? To explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets and 5 tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion logic based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall exert the maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that the force of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two bodies. > [sanjay Rath:] This is a part of the sapta-pachatmika tatva. > Why do we have to exclude 3 planets?? There are 7 planets i.e. luminaries and 5 grahas within the loka loka mountains (at the outer boundary formed by the geo-centric motion of saturn). Rahu and Ketu are the nodes of the Moon..realise that EVERY PLANET has a RAHU & KETU and we are only interested in the nodes of the Moon, so they come into the picture due to the mana karaka.> Yes we do, but can we say that such a motion is directly afecting the quality of our lives without any relevant studies...one day some SJC astrologer, maybe 50 years from now will be able to prove it.> > (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of observation/logic was used here?> [sanjay Rath:] Good question - Sristi Karana may have the answer along with the sapta pancatmika tatva > > © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come only after this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we explain why we chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw a hint that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two?> [sanjay Rath:] The solar flare cycle is for 11 years..the first Upagraha Dhooma is also the begining of the 11th naksatra (if mapped from zero Aries instead of Sun) and represents the time of the day which is the hotest part. There must be a link to the death coming every 11 years..remember the example I gave to prove the validity of the Nadi where the death occured 11 years at 59 years before the predicted date of 70 years.> > (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in greater detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a list of the adityas is given in VRA.> [sanjay Rath:] They are explained in detail in the Puranas and other standard literature..Vishnu is the purest, Indra is the strongest and younger brother of Surya and so on. > > regards> Hari> > [sanjay Rath:] Best wishes> SR > > > > |Om Tat Sat|> http://www.varahamihira > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Dear Hari, I think if you look at the way placement of Rahu and Ketu with respect to the path of Moon, you will better understand what Sanjay meant when he said that every planet has its own Rahu and Ketu. Chandrashekhar. V.Partha sarathy wrote: Dear Hari Moon as a planet in astrology has its rahu and ketu, that its two nodes. You are talking about moons of different planets such as saturn and jupiter, whereas the concept is of the two nodes of each and every planet themselves. Node is an astronomical due to elliptical orbits. best wishes partha varahamihira , Hari M <onlyhari> wrote: > ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| > > > pranäms Sanjay, > > Most of your answers are from left field (or a googly if you like to term it in cricketing parlance) and I have to search the non- existent library in my room which till now consists only of Sanjay Raths books and Narasimhas book! > > Perhaps I should read Thompsons book to get an idea of this Brahmanda concept. I assume that our ancients were not fools and definitely knew that there were at least 9 planets in the solar system. Hence I asked this question about exclusion. > > But if you say that every planet has a Rahu and Ketu, what is the Rahu and Ketu for Jupiter and Saturn who have many, many moons; and for Venus and Mercury which have no moon? > > Rest of your comments, you have given good clues to pursue. Hopefully, when we meet... > > regards > > Hari > guruji@s... wrote: > > > > ::Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya:: > Dear Hari > > > ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| > > Namaste, > > Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which are explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 rudras and Indra & Prajapati. > > In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is mapped to a graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and nakshetras. My questions are: > > (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? To explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets and 5 tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion logic based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall exert the maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that the force of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two bodies. > [sanjay Rath:] This is a part of the sapta-pachatmika tatva. > Why do we have to exclude 3 planets?? There are 7 planets i.e. luminaries and 5 grahas within the loka loka mountains (at the outer boundary formed by the geo-centric motion of saturn). Rahu and Ketu are the nodes of the Moon..realise that EVERY PLANET has a RAHU & KETU and we are only interested in the nodes of the Moon, so they come into the picture due to the mana karaka. > Yes we do, but can we say that such a motion is directly afecting the quality of our lives without any relevant studies...one day some SJC astrologer, maybe 50 years from now will be able to prove it. > > (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of observation/logic was used here? > [sanjay Rath:] Good question - Sristi Karana may have the answer along with the sapta pancatmika tatva > > © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come only after this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we explain why we chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw a hint that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two? > [sanjay Rath:] The solar flare cycle is for 11 years..the first Upagraha Dhooma is also the begining of the 11th naksatra (if mapped from zero Aries instead of Sun) and represents the time of the day which is the hotest part. There must be a link to the death coming every 11 years..remember the example I gave to prove the validity of the Nadi where the death occured 11 years at 59 years before the predicted date of 70 years. > > (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in greater detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a list of the adityas is given in VRA. > [sanjay Rath:] They are explained in detail in the Puranas and other standard literature..Vishnu is the purest, Indra is the strongest and younger brother of Surya and so on. > > regards > Hari > > [sanjay Rath:] Best wishes > SR > > > > |Om Tat Sat| > http://www.varahamihira > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Hari, Your question was (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of observation/logic was used here? You have certainly posed a very interesting question, and here is my humble attempt to understand the logic of allocation of pancha tattwas along with you. I hope for quite a few corrections from all Gurus and other learned members of this forum. The Vishnu Purana and the SriMad Bhagavatham talk about genesis of the Universe. Prakriti is the First and from thence came Mahat- tattwa, from which the Ahamkara had originated. The Ahamkara (or the sense of self) has been further sub-divided into the 3 Gunas, sattwa, Rajas and Tamoguna. While adhidevatas & Antah Karana form the sattwa guna, the karmendriyas and gyanendriyas comprise Rajoguna and the panchabhutas and tanmatras constitute the Tamoguna. 1)I think the antah-karana would correspond to Chandra; 2)the energy principle latent in the working of all indriyas would correspond to Surya, as among the three sattwik planets, Sun is the rajo guni, because he indicates creation; 3)and that leaves us with 5 planets and the pancha tattwas, which are part of tamoguna. The puranas say that that the first tattwa to originate was the Akasa tattwa from which vaayu had originated and from vayu came agni and from thence came Jala and finally from Jala we get prithvi tattwa. Now, Akasa tattwa is difficult to grasp. To understand it better we can analyze Sabda (sound), the tanmatra associated with Akasa tattwa. Sabda is of two types…Anahata (imperceptible)and aahata (perceptible). Similarly, Akasa tattwa can also be deemed to be of two parts, one imperceptible and the other perceptible. Thus this imperceptible Akasa tattwa was the first one to originate and its function is to bind the ever expanding universe together. Then comes vayu tattwa and it is mapped to Saturn, the planet farthest from the Sun. Now, why am I mapping tattwas from Saturn and not from Mercury? My hunch is that Saturn is the oldest planet in the solar system, because being the farthest from the Sun, it had better chances of survival than any other planets closer to the Sun. Over the millennia the rest of the solar system would have come into being gradually. I would think that Jupiter is the next oldest planet and this sequence can be correlated to the natural age sequence of the planets too, and I think it works out fairly accurately. Jupiter, personified Akasa tattwa, indicates perceptible sound or Aahata. Brihaspati is also called Vaakpati, and presides over vedas, while Saturn rules silence. I really do not know whether this has been verified scientifically, but perhaps there is no perceptible sound beyond Jupiter? The combination of Jupiter and Saturn causes Brahma Yoga, where the Anahata, or the imperceptible / internalized thought gets articulated / externalized as action or Aahata. From Vayu comes agni tattwa , and the planet next in hierarchy is Mars, and then comes Venus, indicating Jala tattwa and finally mercury, closest and the youngest, indicating prithvi tattwa. In this way the pancha tattwas were assigned to the 5 planets, while Sun rules over chetana and Moon lords Antah-karana. Regards, Lakshmi varahamihira , <guruji@s...> wrote: > > > ::Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya:: > Dear Hari > > ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| > > Namaste, > > Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which are > explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 rudras and > Indra & Prajapati. > > In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is mapped to a > graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and nakshetras. My > questions are: > > (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? To > explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets and 5 > tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion logic > based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall exert the > maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that the force > of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the product of > their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance > between the two bodies. > [sanjay Rath:] This is a part of the sapta-pachatmika tatva. > Why do we have to exclude 3 planets?? There are 7 planets i.e. luminaries > and 5 grahas within the loka loka mountains (at the outer boundary formed by > the geo-centric motion of saturn). Rahu and Ketu are the nodes of the > Moon..realise that EVERY PLANET has a RAHU & KETU and we are only interested > in the nodes of the Moon, so they come into the picture due to the mana > karaka. > Yes we do, but can we say that such a motion is directly afecting the > quality of our lives without any relevant studies...one day some SJC > astrologer, maybe 50 years from now will be able to prove it. > > (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five > tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of > observation/logic was used here? > [sanjay Rath:] Good question - Sristi Karana may have the answer along with > the sapta pancatmika tatva > > © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of > explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come only after > this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we explain why we > chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw a hint > that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two? > [sanjay Rath:] The solar flare cycle is for 11 years..the first Upagraha > Dhooma is also the begining of the 11th naksatra (if mapped from zero Aries > instead of Sun) and represents the time of the day which is the hotest part. > There must be a link to the death coming every 11 years..remember the > example I gave to prove the validity of the Nadi where the death occured 11 > years at 59 years before the predicted date of 70 years. > > (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in greater > detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a list of the > adityas is given in VRA. > [sanjay Rath:] They are explained in detail in the Puranas and other > standard literature..Vishnu is the purest, Indra is the strongest and > younger brother of Surya and so on. > > regards > Hari > > > [sanjay Rath:] Best wishes > SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| Dear Lakshmi Ramesh, Namaste. That was quite brilliant. Just a few comments and questions, based on the logic you have posed to explain the original question. (1) The order of evolution of the tatwas mentioned by you is quite logical. After all, OM is supposed to be the pranava akshara or the primordial sound which originated with the birth of the universe. Even on scientific lines, on the decreasing temperature scale, comes steam (vayu), water (jala) and ice (prithvi). (2)The modern theory of planetary formation is that the planets basically form out of the swirling debris thrown out by the star. In the beginning, the star is too hot and as it cools with time, the planets get formed. (3) Now according to the order of evolution given by you, akash comes first. Why then did you start with vayu and map it to Saturn? Basically, the planet mapping is chosen such that they have a single predominant quantity of the tatva; it is not that they have only this tatva and actually are a mixture of some or all the tatvas. (4) Jupiter is the largest planet in the solar system; it is also a gas giant as the 3 outer planets (Sa, Uranus and Neptune). It is not possible for such a huge planet to be composed largely of gas unless there be some strong binding force or Akash. Hence Akash is given to Jupiter. Excluding Earth, only Venus has similar quantities of water and hence is given Jala tatva. Then only Mars has a huge molten iron core and hence a strong magnetic field similar to that of Earth. So it is given Agni tatva. Now we have to decide on either Mercury or Saturn to represent prithvi or vayu tatva. Since Saturn is already a gas giant as noted earlier, it gets vayu tatva and ergo, Mercury gets prithvi tatva. Based on todays state of observation, it is quite logical but the key question remains the same as before: how did our ancients reason this one out? Sanjay has given a hint here but you are possibly better placed to explore this hint. (5) Saturn may not be the oldest planet...the dictum is that when crystals form, the one that formed first and was around for the longest period of time is usually the biggest crystal. based on this dictum, it is possible that Jupiter may in fact be the oldest planet. The reason that Saturn is given the status of the old man is because it is the slowest moving of all the grahas and also controls the Ju-Sa cosmic timecycle within the solar system. (6) Sanjay told that the boundary of the loka-loka is at the outermost orbit of Saturn (geocentric motion)...so why did we decide to stop the boundary there only and why not further onwards? All in all, very interesting and look forward to comments. regards Hari varahamihira , " B Lakshmi Ramesh " <b_lakshmi_ramesh> wrote: > Om Gurave Namah > > Namaste Hari, > > Your question was > > (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the five > tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of > observation/logic was used here? > > You have certainly posed a very interesting question, and here is my > humble attempt to understand the logic of allocation of pancha > tattwas along with you. I hope for quite a few corrections from all > Gurus and other learned members of this forum. > > The Vishnu Purana and the SriMad Bhagavatham talk about genesis of > the Universe. Prakriti is the First and from thence came Mahat- > tattwa, from which the Ahamkara had originated. > > The Ahamkara (or the sense of self) has been further sub-divided into > the 3 Gunas, sattwa, Rajas and Tamoguna. While adhidevatas & Antah > Karana form the sattwa guna, the karmendriyas and gyanendriyas > comprise Rajoguna and the panchabhutas and tanmatras constitute the > Tamoguna. > > 1)I think the antah-karana would correspond to Chandra; > 2)the energy principle latent in the working of all indriyas would > correspond to Surya, as among the three sattwik planets, Sun is the > rajo guni, because he indicates creation; > 3)and that leaves us with 5 planets and the pancha tattwas, which are > part of tamoguna. > > The puranas say that that the first tattwa to originate was the > Akasa tattwa from which vaayu had originated and from vayu came agni > and from thence came Jala and finally from Jala we get prithvi > tattwa. > > Now, Akasa tattwa is difficult to grasp. To understand it better we > can analyze Sabda (sound), the tanmatra associated with Akasa > tattwa. Sabda is of two types…Anahata (imperceptible)and aahata > (perceptible). Similarly, Akasa tattwa can also be deemed to be of > two parts, one imperceptible and the other perceptible. Thus this > imperceptible Akasa tattwa was the first one to originate and its > function is to bind the ever expanding universe together. > > Then comes vayu tattwa and it is mapped to Saturn, the planet > farthest from the Sun. > > Now, why am I mapping tattwas from Saturn and not from Mercury? > > My hunch is that Saturn is the oldest planet in the solar system, > because being the farthest from the Sun, it had better chances of > survival than any other planets closer to the Sun. Over the > millennia the rest of the solar system would have come into being > gradually. I would think that Jupiter is the next oldest planet and > this sequence can be correlated to the natural age sequence of the > planets too, and I think it works out fairly accurately. > > Jupiter, personified Akasa tattwa, indicates perceptible sound or > Aahata. Brihaspati is also called Vaakpati, and presides over > vedas, while Saturn rules silence. I really do not know whether this > has been verified scientifically, but perhaps there is no perceptible > sound beyond Jupiter? > > The combination of Jupiter and Saturn causes Brahma Yoga, where the > Anahata, or the imperceptible / internalized thought gets > articulated / externalized as action or Aahata. > > From Vayu comes agni tattwa , and the planet next in hierarchy is > Mars, and then comes Venus, indicating Jala tattwa and finally > mercury, closest and the youngest, indicating prithvi tattwa. In this > way the pancha tattwas were assigned to the 5 planets, while Sun > rules over chetana and Moon lords Antah-karana. > > Regards, > Lakshmi > > > > > varahamihira , <guruji@s...> wrote: > > > > > > ::Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya:: > > Dear Hari > > > > ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| > > > > Namaste, > > > > Yesterday I was reading the article 'Jyotish Foundation' in which > are > > explained the 33 devas consisting of the 8 vasus, 12 adityas, 11 > rudras and > > Indra & Prajapati. > > > > In the Asta Vasava, we have the pancha tatvas which in turn is > mapped to a > > graha or planet. So we have the luminaries, pancha tatvas and > nakshetras. My > > questions are: > > > > (a) How is the mapping of the pancha tatvas to the planets decided? > To > > explain this further, excluding the luminaries, we have 8 planets > and 5 > > tatvas and so we shall have to exclude 3 planets. Is the exclusion > logic > > based on the hypothesis that the planets closest to Earth shall > exert the > > maximum influence on the events happening on Earth? We know that > the force > > of attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to the > product of > > their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the > distance > > between the two bodies. > > [sanjay Rath:] This is a part of the sapta-pachatmika tatva. > > Why do we have to exclude 3 planets?? There are 7 planets i.e. > luminaries > > and 5 grahas within the loka loka mountains (at the outer boundary > formed by > > the geo-centric motion of saturn). Rahu and Ketu are the nodes of > the > > Moon..realise that EVERY PLANET has a RAHU & KETU and we are only > interested > > in the nodes of the Moon, so they come into the picture due to the > mana > > karaka. > > Yes we do, but can we say that such a motion is directly afecting > the > > quality of our lives without any relevant studies...one day some SJC > > astrologer, maybe 50 years from now will be able to prove it. > > > > (b) Having determined that Mercury to Saturn shall represent the > five > > tatvas, how do we decide which planet gets which tatva? What kind of > > observation/logic was used here? > > [sanjay Rath:] Good question - Sristi Karana may have the answer > along with > > the sapta pancatmika tatva > > > > © why only 11 rudras? I ask this question because the hierarchy of > > explanation of the article is such that the dwadasa adityas come > only after > > this. Suppose I dont know that there are 12 signs, how can we > explain why we > > chose this number of rudras to be 11? I remember that Sanjay threw > a hint > > that the sunspot cycle is also 11 years. Any link between the two? > > [sanjay Rath:] The solar flare cycle is for 11 years..the first > Upagraha > > Dhooma is also the begining of the 11th naksatra (if mapped from > zero Aries > > instead of Sun) and represents the time of the day which is the > hotest part. > > There must be a link to the death coming every 11 years..remember > the > > example I gave to prove the validity of the Nadi where the death > occured 11 > > years at 59 years before the predicted date of 70 years. > > > > (d) Is there any reference that explains the dwadasa adityas in > greater > > detail; how they were created and how do they act? I know that a > list of the > > adityas is given in VRA. > > [sanjay Rath:] They are explained in detail in the Puranas and other > > standard literature..Vishnu is the purest, Indra is the strongest > and > > younger brother of Surya and so on. > > > > regards > > Hari > > > > > > [sanjay Rath:] Best wishes > > SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Hari, Well, the discussion seems to be getting more and more interesting. I’ll try to focus only on the areas of doubt and try to reason them out to the best of my ability and leave the rest to Guruji (don’t I always do that!) so that things would become clearer for both of us. Now according to the order of evolution given by you, akash comes first. Why then did you start with vayu and map it to Saturn? I am sure you’d recall that I spent some time in delineating sound as tanmatra of Akash tattwa. What I’d intended by that discussion is that that there is much more to akash tattwa and Jupiter himself than just the “physical” Jupiter. Among the Dasavataras, Sage Parasara assigned Vamana Avatara to Jupiter….which means that what we don’t see is much much bigger than what we see. Perhaps it is so vast that our limited comprehension can never fully grasp its cosmic dimensions. Sorry for the digression. Anyway, I was talking about the inaudible part of sound…even when we pronounce an akshara, the beginning of the sound is supposed to be from nabhi. Like every thing else. But the sound becomes audible or perceptible only after it passes through an interface i.e., the vocal chords, and Saturn rules the visuddhi chakra, which is supposed to be located in the region of the throat, and governs speech. So, sound comprises the final articulated sound as well as the silent gathering of vibrations before that. Now aren’t we discussing Brahma yoga here? That Jeeva, which is essentially imperceptible, acquires a body only after being touched by Saturn and then is born as an entity. If Jupiter is to manifest in a palpable, then Saturn is a mandatory interface. Both obstructing and facilitating. Take whichever signification you want, it's always true. Saturn may not be the oldest planet...the dictum is that when crystals form, the one that formed first and was around for the longest period of time is usually the biggest crystal. based on this dictum, it is possible that Jupiter may in fact be the oldest planet. The reason that Saturn is given the status of the old man is because it is the slowest moving of all the grahas and also controls the Ju-Sa cosmic timecycle within the solar system. I feel that the imperceptible akash tattwa, which was hitherto purely cosmic in nature, had coalesced into a visible planet and a tangible influence much later. And, I also continue to maintain that Jupiter is definitely younger to Saturn because he moves faster, and he is likened to Vamana, who is a child. Jupiter could have gone on gathering more and more girth, as he swallows up rotating asteroids etc because of the tremendous pull generated by his massive size coupled with great speed (though he’s so large, he’s supposed to be quite fast ). I bet, Jupiter of a million years back was much smaller than the Jupiter we see now. And the reason is, he doesn’t wear a belt around his belly like our austere Saturn J. Based on todays state of observation, it is quite logical but the key question remains the same as before: how did our ancients reason this one out? Today, we might have better physical implements, or so we might fancy, but the ancients had definitely much better faculties. Today we might pooh pooh many of their observations, but time and again the joke proved to be on us. They knew what they were talking about, thanks to their uncluttered and unlimited consciousness. They were truly universal. Even now, all those things are not impossible, provided …. (6) Sanjay told that the boundary of the loka-loka is at the outermost orbit of Saturn (geocentric motion)...so why did we decide to stop the boundary there only and why not further onwards? Yes, the boundary is only mythical and not physical. Shall we say that the loka-loka parvata is the insurmountable ahamkara (the sense of ‘I’). Once you overcome the buffetings of paanchabhoutika pulls and pushes, transcend the interplay of tri-gunas, you can peel back the layers of ahamkara and peep over the lip of the loka-loka at the Mahat-tattwa, which would contain a great confluence of innumerable tattwa-systems quite like ours…could be quite unlike ours too, yet not be a part of it. Regards, Lakshmi P.S: I really don’t know if you’ve benefited from this conversation, I certainly did. Thanks a lot for the stimulating discussion. Get better spam protection with Mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 ||Om Brihaspataye Namah|| Namaste Lakshmi, Have you observed the lighting of a matchstick? It takes only one tiny spark to create a big flame. So also my question, posed in the physical scheme of things, was a tiny spark but look at the flame (discussion) it has created. Bottomline: both of us are benefited. It is just that the scientist in me is tangling with the Purana philosopher in you and the net result is this, :-). My questions in blue. I need to think about this in greater detail. But nevertheless you have raised some very interesting points. I feel that the imperceptible akash tattwa, which was hitherto purely cosmic in nature, had coalesced into a visible planet and a tangible influence much later. And, I also continue to maintain that Jupiter is definitely younger to Saturn because he moves faster, and he is likened to Vamana, who is a child. Jupiter could have gone on gathering more and more girth, as he swallows up rotating asteroids etc because of the tremendous pull generated by his massive size coupled with great speed (though he’s so large, he’s supposed to be quite fast ). I bet, Jupiter of a million years back was much smaller than the Jupiter we see now. And the reason is, he doesn’t wear a belt around his belly like our austere Saturn J. I cannot agree with this. Just because a planet rotates very fast doesnt mean that it is young compared to the other planet. Look at the data for Ju and Sa. Period of rotation for Ju is 9h 50 m while that of Saturn is 10h 14 m. Not much of a difference, you will agree. As for size, planetary ratio diameter (relative to that of Earth) for Ju & Sa are 11.2 and 9.4. In other words, gravitational pull is not much of a factor given that they are primarily gas giants. Yes, the boundary is only mythical and not physical. Shall we say that the loka-loka parvata is the insurmountable ahamkara (the sense of ‘I’). Once you overcome the buffetings of paanchabhoutika pulls and pushes, transcend the interplay of tri-gunas, you can peel back the layers of ahamkara and peep over the lip of the loka-loka at the Mahat-tattwa, which would contain a great confluence of innumerable tattwa-systems quite like ours…could be quite unlike ours too, yet not be a part of it. Sanjay, do you agree with this? If we were to transcend the panchatatvas, would we see this? I dont think that the boundary is purely mythical. Have a look at the data below (1 AU = distance of Earth from Sun)and you can see that there is a BIG gap between Saturn and Uranus! Sun 0 Mercury 0.39 Venus 0.72 Earth 1 Mars 1.52 Jupiter 5.2 Saturn 9.54 Uranus 19.18 Neptune 30.06 Pluto 39.44 regards Hari Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Jaya Jagannatha Dear Laksmi, I hope you never miss the factor of Density too. Karu - lakshmi ramesh varahamihira Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:11 AM |Sri Varaha| Re:Jyotish Foundation Om Gurave Namah Namaste Hari, Well, the discussion seems to be getting more and more interesting. I’ll try to focus only on the areas of doubt and try to reason them out to the best of my ability and leave the rest to Guruji (don’t I always do that!) so that things would become clearer for both of us. Now according to the order of evolution given by you, akash comes first. Why then did you start with vayu and map it to Saturn? I am sure you’d recall that I spent some time in delineating sound as tanmatra of Akash tattwa. What I’d intended by that discussion is that that there is much more to akash tattwa and Jupiter himself than just the “physical” Jupiter. Among the Dasavataras, Sage Parasara assigned Vamana Avatara to Jupiter….which means that what we don’t see is much much bigger than what we see. Perhaps it is so vast that our limited comprehension can never fully grasp its cosmic dimensions. Sorry for the digression. Anyway, I was talking about the inaudible part of sound…even when we pronounce an akshara, the beginning of the sound is supposed to be from nabhi. Like every thing else. But the sound becomes audible or perceptible only after it passes through an interface i.e., the vocal chords, and Saturn rules the visuddhi chakra, which is supposed to be located in the region of the throat, and governs speech. So, sound comprises the final articulated sound as well as the silent gathering of vibrations before that. Now aren’t we discussing Brahma yoga here? That Jeeva, which is essentially imperceptible, acquires a body only after being touched by Saturn and then is born as an entity. If Jupiter is to manifest in a palpable, then Saturn is a mandatory interface. Both obstructing and facilitating. Take whichever signification you want, it's always true. Saturn may not be the oldest planet...the dictum is that when crystals form, the one that formed first and was around for the longest period of time is usually the biggest crystal. based on this dictum, it is possible that Jupiter may in fact be the oldest planet. The reason that Saturn is given the status of the old man is because it is the slowest moving of all the grahas and also controls the Ju-Sa cosmic timecycle within the solar system. I feel that the imperceptible akash tattwa, which was hitherto purely cosmic in nature, had coalesced into a visible planet and a tangible influence much later. And, I also continue to maintain that Jupiter is definitely younger to Saturn because he moves faster, and he is likened to Vamana, who is a child. Jupiter could have gone on gathering more and more girth, as he swallows up rotating asteroids etc because of the tremendous pull generated by his massive size coupled with great speed (though he’s so large, he’s supposed to be quite fast ). I bet, Jupiter of a million years back was much smaller than the Jupiter we see now. And the reason is, he doesn’t wear a belt around his belly like our austere Saturn J. Based on todays state of observation, it is quite logical but the key question remains the same as before: how did our ancients reason this one out? Today, we might have better physical implements, or so we might fancy, but the ancients had definitely much better faculties. Today we might pooh pooh many of their observations, but time and again the joke proved to be on us. They knew what they were talking about, thanks to their uncluttered and unlimited consciousness. They were truly universal. Even now, all those things are not impossible, provided …. (6) Sanjay told that the boundary of the loka-loka is at the outermost orbit of Saturn (geocentric motion)...so why did we decide to stop the boundary there only and why not further onwards? Yes, the boundary is only mythical and not physical. Shall we say that the loka-loka parvata is the insurmountable ahamkara (the sense of ‘I’). Once you overcome the buffetings of paanchabhoutika pulls and pushes, transcend the interplay of tri-gunas, you can peel back the layers of ahamkara and peep over the lip of the loka-loka at the Mahat-tattwa, which would contain a great confluence of innumerable tattwa-systems quite like ours…could be quite unlike ours too, yet not be a part of it. Regards, Lakshmi P.S: I really don’t know if you’ve benefited from this conversation, I certainly did. Thanks a lot for the stimulating discussion. Get better spam protection with Mail |Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.