Appeal to List Members

Posted March 19, 2005 · March 19, 2005

|| Jaya Jagannath ||

Dear Jyotisha, Namaskar

Knowledge grows with sharing and we all

know that. Our religion teaches that there can be various paths and ways to

reach the ultimate goal of realization. Thus it encourages many paths and ways

of thinking. This is not only true with religion and religious paths only, but

also in all the disciplines which found its root into the culture of India. Since

our cultural ethos teaches us tolerance to others views and opinions, various

such paths have been co-existing from time immemorial. Its

possible that some can ascribe to one opinion and others to something else,

since the knowledge available is always subjected to interpretation based on

the past experiences. The varahamihira forum is created for the advance

students for discussing on the advance topics of Jyotish and arrive at a

consensus, resolving differences in opinions and similar things. However, while

we admit that there is common purpose behind our coming and discussing our

views in the forum, we also agree that not all consensus

are so easy to arrive at and we learn to live with the differences.

Keeping the objective in mind,

varahamihira encourages airing of difference in opinions as long as the

discussion is driven by the need mutual understanding of others point of view

and review one’s own understanding in new light. However, it’s

unfortunate when the discussion is veered towards personal allegations. I avoid

moderating any mails since I respect the Indian tradition of intellectual

debates and not blind adherence to a particular path of belief. Since we all

understand the basic requirements for maintaining a healthy environment for

intellectual debates and discussions, I request all the members to quote scriptures

in support to their arguments and deter from any personal allegations. There

have been instances of disagreements in this list in past and it will happen in

future too. Let’s handle these differences with care and not leave the

list or the organization due to this.

Moreover, I believe that even though a shisya

is assigned to a guru for personal guidance, the learning goes much beyond the

personal student teacher relationship and the teaching rests on all the Gurus

of SJC.

I request all of you to maintain a good

atmosphere for mutual learning and respect differences in opinion. Please try

to give scriptural references and reasoning as support to your arguments. AND

NO PERSONAL ALLEGATIONS!

Regards

Sarajit

Moderator, Varahamihira

Chandrashekhar [chandrashekhar46]

Saturday, March 19, 2005

3:48 AM

vyasa ;

Varahamihira (AT) (DOT) Com; sarajitp

Re: [Vedavyasa] ADMIN my

last mail for Gurus and Students pl read

Dear Sarbani,

I have read your mail and protest. Since you want it to be publicly discussed,

I would like other Gurus and Shishyas to give their frank opinion as to whether

I have maintained decorum or not.

I am surprised to observe that Mundaka Upanishad is not considered as

Scripture by you. I do not remember anybody having given scriptural

reference either. If I remember right, Sanjay P. as well as Ajit and Sarajit

too quoted the same source. My reply to Sanjay P. also clarified my

understanding of what is Para and Apara Vidya.

I do not think you have read my reply. If you are interested in continuing the

discussions on the thread I could quote from Narada Purana which states the

purpose of Jyotish. There are many other reference to Para

and Apara Vidya in scriptures.

I am sorry if you feel I guided any one to take a particular line. This is a

charge that I strongly protest again. I am certain that every one remembers

that I entered the discussions when things were going in the direction of

personal attacks instead of discussion on scriptures. You may ask my students

whether anytime I have asked them to begin any line of discussions. I do not

have a habit of censoring anybodys mail.

The remark about my agenda is in bad taste, and I would not like to comment on

it. I would like you to read Saaji's reply to Visti again and point out where

he says he was following his Guru.

I am also surprised to see that you think Laghu Parashari is different from

Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra. I would request any of the Gurus to whom the

remaining paragraphs are addressed to show me a single shloka in Laghu

Parashari which is not in Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra. Let me also call upon

all Gurus to read my mails, that are reffered to, and find out whether what is

being alleged about me having said is right. I have never held the position

that use of 8 Chara Karakas is wrong.

Let me make it clear that I only commented about fixation about Guru when

insinuations were made against me in earlier mail. I had sent the shloka to Sanjay

indicating my understanding of my work as Guru. It is from Narada

Samhita.

If this an attempt to ask me to not to air my views on the list, say so

plainly. Making allegations without any basis, that too of a personal nature is

detested. Let me also make it clear that I had never solicited to become

Jyotish Guru of SJC and am pasting mail inviting me as Jyotish Guru from

Sarbani, for record.

" " Sarbani Sarkar " <sarbani

" Chandrashekhar " <boxdel

Sunday, April 27, 2003 6:01 PM

Dear Chandrashekhar,

I write this mail to you at Sanjayji’s behest. SJC Asia is now going to

incorporate several new gurus, as the existing gurus are overloaded and also

because we need more gurus in India.

He has chosen about 2-3 people from

each zone, namely, the western, eastern, northern and southern zones from

India.

He will make the announcements later in the year when Jupiter enters

Leo. From the western zone, one of the prospective gurus he has in mind is

you. In fact he has wanted to appoint you guru since a long time, whether he

appointed anyone else or not. He wished to know whether you would be willing

to take on this responsibility. He feels that your knowledge will be an

asset for SJC and many students will benefit for it, as they are already

doing. Please let me know whether you accept this proposal or not so that I

may pass on your decision to him

Best regards,

Sarbani "

If Sanjay wants me to give up my responsibilities as a Guru I would like him to

say so and tell the shishyas whom I am teaching at present from which Guru they

should learn. I would be glad to relinquish the responsibility, but only on say

so of Sanjay or Narasimha.

Regards,

Chandrashekhar..

Sarbani Sarkar wrote:

Om Klim Krishnaya

Jagannathaya Svaha

Dear Chandrashekharji,

Please consider this as an

administrative post. This is about time I intervened and protested against

you. This mail should have been written only on the Vyasa but I am

deliberately posting this on Varahamihira as I want every student to read this.

Since you have maintained no decorum, neither will I, on behalf of myself and

some of the gurus here. In my so many years in SJC this is the first

time that I had to take such a strong stand against anyone. But you leave me

with no options.

1. Neither you nor Saaji gave any scriptural

reference nor did either of you discuss it at any point.

The only person who did was Ajit. And the only person who raised the

relevant question from it was Sanjay Prabhakaran. If both of you followed

Shankara, you too would have asked the same question as he did, that from the

Mundaka definition it appears that the Upanishads and the Vedas are apara. Does

that make sense or is there an anomaly there? This question did not seem to

strike you or Saaji. But it struck Shankara and hence he went on to give

an explanation. What is your explanation Chandrashekharji?

Naturally you are very uncomfortable with Shankara and with our discussions.

The Mundaka has very clearly stated that the 4 Vedas and the 6 Vedangas

are very important for Brahmagyana. Also the classification of para and apara

in not on the basis of texts, but something else. Not at any point have

you or Saaji discussed these issues, as I think you do not have the intention

to do so. Your agenda seems to be something else.

2. Secondly, all I have been telling

Saaji from the beginning was to reflect more. But it agitated him intensely.

Why? It led him to fling accusations wildly. Why? Not only

that, when I told him one day that it was past 1 a.m. in the night and that I

would write to him in the morning, he turned around and accused me that I was

not giving quotations!! Under your guidance Chandrashekharji!! All

students in Varahamihira are under the guidance of their teachers. If he

was a normal Varahamihira student he would have waited

patiently till the next day and the discussions would have progressed at its

own reflective pace and all in the list would have benefitted. Consequently,

JHora, which arrived here exactly at that time and languished here in the

office as I had to waste my time writing non-astrological mails to him in order

to clarify my statements. I asked him to read shlokas 13-17 of the chapter of

karakas on Parasara. He disappeared. And started talking of his caste and

his father. A student should have responded and discussed and from it the

whole list would have benefitted. I was really looking forward to that. Not

only the shlokas but Santhanam's commentaries as well. So, I repeat,

what is your agenda Chandrashekharji?

3. It is you and your students Saaji and

Prabodh who have been speaking in an insulting tone to the teachers

here...without

provocation. To challenge and to question in a

healthy intellectual debate in one thing, but to be rude is

another. Subsequently, I must admit Prabodh realised the utility of

discussions. I had decided on the basis of this development sometime back that

I would not respond to any students here, except those who are my own students

and those who belong to the SJC Delhi study circle (for whom I am directly

responsible), and of course to the gurus. It is not worth it. Parasara

says, " Na deyam parashishyayam nastikayam shathaya cha " . " Don't

give this knowledge to another's shishya, a non-believer and to one who is

deceitful and malignant. " Also, I don't have the time. Instead of wasting

my time writing such mails as this, I would rather spend this time more valuably

by exchanging views with Ajit and Sanjay P, who have reflected on Shankara's

commentary and moved on to ponder over the higher spiritual implications for

jyotish. And with Partha, Rafal and Lakshmi R, all of whom shared their views.

That is what we should be doing here in Varahamihira. So that a student's doubt

and query should lead us to study and reflect more and help us to grow by

exchanging and sharing knowledge. If I am unable to do that, then it

is pointless being here in Varahamihira.

The result of similar behaviour in the

past is that many gurus quietly leave the lists. This includes Sanjayji,

although he will cover it with Jupitarian sugariness and say he

is busy and travelling. The Moderator is at the moment busy getting

married, lest anyone accuse him that he is not doing his job. As far as I am

concerned this has now become no better than the very public Vedic-Astrology. I

also know, that this very mail of mine will be twisted and made into an issue

as you have been twisting some mails to project a different scenario. I agree

that Visti should not have dragged in the name of Narasimha. It was out of

context and I don't know why he did so. In fact, Sanjayji did not like it

either and had asked me to tell Visti to withdraw his statement. BUT Visti was

right in asking Saaji who his guru was, as Saaji said he was only following his

guru. For some reason, Saaji did not stand up for you. And it was I who

provided the name. But you twisted this event to once again project something

else. Finally, Saaji made some comment about age and intelligence, to which I

responded that though Visti, Partha and others were so young in age, we learn a

lot from there. Again you twisted this mail of mine. I wonder why you are doing

this Chandrashekharji?

For senior gurus in

Vyasa

4. I sincerely request senior gurus

in Vyasa to rethink about Varahamhira and our roles as teachers. For as of now,

I don't feel very comfortable about sharing knowledge in this forum, and most

DEFINITELY not parampara knowledge. The premise of such sharing is mutual

intellectual respect and trust, which is sadly lacking.

I will write one last mail on this list

giving the shlokas as Sanjayji had requested and as Chandrashekharji does

not seem to have a clue about them. Actually I was going to do it for

Saaji, when I realised that he was not interested in it. Till now we have only

talked about the eligibility of teachers. I think we should talk of eligibility

of students. We are so busy playing the role of a benign Jupiter that

we overlook all this and turn a blind eye to this fetish of guru bashing.

Finally, this discussion on para vidya

rose, as Prabodh was vehemently opposed to the association of astrology with

spirituality. Similarly Saaji and Chandrashekharji's basic ground of

agitation among other things is that the Mundaka is actually stating that

jyotish is necessary for brahmagyana. So the primary discomfort of all

three of them arises whenever there is a close connection with spirituality and

jyotish. However, the rest of us are here only because we are interested in

spiritual astrology. So there is a fundamental difference of opinion here.

Hence you will observe Chandrashekharji's rejection of the spiritual aspect of

the Atmakaraka. (He wrote in a mail to me that what does the 12th from Karakamsha

have to do with the Atmakaraka?) The second is provocations regarding

Atmakaraka and the chara karaka schemes, is because he does not identify

with Brhat Parasara all that much. His adherence is with Laghu Parasari.

This is what I observed in conferences from his comments. That is all right

as everyone has their own opinion. Hence whenever the question

of chara karakas come up they back out of the discussions. So the two main

problems that are easily identifiable are spirituality and Brhat Parasara.

With these two last mails I will not be

reading any more mails on Varahamihira for some time. I am not running away. I

will instead spend the time on finishing the production of SJC's first book by

assisting the author and the printer. By assisting in the legalities of

establishing such a publishing wing. By attending to JHora CD, the finalisation

of the Guru Shishya database, the finalisation of the Membership Data Base, the

finalisation of JD registration, writing my 3 papers for the coming

conferences, attending the classes of my teachers, teaching the students under

me and making the next conference in Delhi feasible. In between, if

Varahamihira gives me the space for sharing with other members instead of

writing mails like this, I will spend time on the list. As of now, it is a

futile waste of time.

Om Gurave

Namah.

Best regards,

Sarbani

[om

jum sah vyam Vedavyasaaya namah sah jum om]

[om

jum sah vyam Vedavyasaaya namah sah jum om]

Posted March 19, 2005 · March 19, 2005

Om Gurave Namah

Namaste Sarajit,

Very well said. As you have correctly pointed out, theorectical / ethical differences will continue to exist, but let's all learn to live with differences of opinion, with dignity and mutual respect. Let's all make a resolve to stop making mountains out of mole hills and continue aiding one another in this amazing journey into the Unknown with humour and tolerance.

Best wishes for a happy married life.

Regards,

Lakshmi Sarajit Poddar <sarajit wrote:

|| Jaya Jagannath ||

Dear Jyotisha, Namaskar

Knowledge grows with sharing and we all know that. Our religion teaches that there can be various paths and ways to reach the ultimate goal of realization. Thus it encourages many paths and ways of thinking. This is not only true with religion and religious paths only, but also in all the disciplines which found its root into the culture of India. Since our cultural ethos teaches us tolerance to others views and opinions, various such paths have been co-existing from time immemorial. Its possible that some can ascribe to one opinion and others to something else, since the knowledge available is always subjected to interpretation based on the past experiences. The varahamihira forum

is created for the advance students for discussing on the advance topics of Jyotish and arrive at a consensus, resolving differences in opinions and similar things. However, while we admit that there is common purpose behind our coming and discussing our views in the forum, we also agree that not all consensus are so easy to arrive at and we learn to live with the differences.

Keeping the objective in mind, varahamihira encourages airing of difference in opinions as long as the discussion is driven by the need mutual understanding of others point of view and review one’s own understanding in new light. However, it’s unfortunate when the discussion is veered towards personal allegations. I avoid moderating any mails since I respect the Indian tradition of intellectual debates and not blind adherence to a particular path of belief. Since we all understand the basic requirements for maintaining a healthy environment for intellectual debates and discussions, I request all the members to quote scriptures in support to their arguments and deter from any personal allegations. There have been instances of disagreements in this list in past and it will happen in future too. Let’s handle these differences with care and not leave the list or the

organization due to this.

Moreover, I believe that even though a shisya is assigned to a guru for personal guidance, the learning goes much beyond the personal student teacher relationship and the teaching rests on all the Gurus of SJC.

I request all of you to maintain a good atmosphere for mutual learning and respect differences in opinion. Please try to give scriptural references and reasoning as support to your arguments. AND NO PERSONAL ALLEGATIONS!

Regards

Sarajit

Moderator, Varahamihira

Chandrashekhar [chandrashekhar46] Saturday, March 19, 2005 3:48 AMvyasa ; Varahamihira (AT) (DOT) Com; sarajitpSubject: Re: [Vedavyasa] ADMIN my last mail for Gurus and Students pl read

Dear Sarbani,I have read your mail and protest. Since you want it to be publicly discussed, I would like other Gurus and Shishyas to give their frank opinion as to whether I have maintained decorum or not.I am surprised to observe that Mundaka Upanishad is not considered as Scripture by you. I do not remember anybody having given scriptural reference either. If I remember right, Sanjay P. as well as Ajit and Sarajit too quoted the same source. My reply to Sanjay P. also clarified my understanding of what is Para and Apara Vidya. I do not think you have read my reply. If you are interested in continuing the discussions on the thread I could quote from Narada Purana which states the purpose of Jyotish. There are many other reference to Para and Apara Vidya in scriptures.I am sorry if you feel I

guided any one to take a particular line. This is a charge that I strongly protest again. I am certain that every one remembers that I entered the discussions when things were going in the direction of personal attacks instead of discussion on scriptures. You may ask my students whether anytime I have asked them to begin any line of discussions. I do not have a habit of censoring anybodys mail.The remark about my agenda is in bad taste, and I would not like to comment on it. I would like you to read Saaji's reply to Visti again and point out where he says he was following his Guru.I am also surprised to see that you think Laghu Parashari is different from Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra. I would request any of the Gurus to whom the remaining paragraphs are addressed to show me a single shloka in Laghu Parashari which is not in Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra. Let me also call upon all Gurus to read my mails, that are reffered to, and find out whether what is being

alleged about me having said is right. I have never held the position that use of 8 Chara Karakas is wrong.Let me make it clear that I only commented about fixation about Guru when insinuations were made against me in earlier mail. I had sent the shloka to Sanjay indicating my understanding of my work as Guru. It is from Narada Samhita.If this an attempt to ask me to not to air my views on the list, say so plainly. Making allegations without any basis, that too of a personal nature is detested. Let me also make it clear that I had never solicited to become Jyotish Guru of SJC and am pasting mail inviting me as Jyotish Guru from Sarbani, for record.""Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani"Chandrashekhar" <boxdelSunday, April 27, 2003 6:01 PMDear Chandrashekhar,I write this mail to you at

Sanjayji’s behest. SJC Asia is now going toincorporate several new gurus, as the existing gurus are overloaded and alsobecause we need more gurus in India. He has chosen about 2-3 people fromeach zone, namely, the western, eastern, northern and southern zones fromIndia. He will make the announcements later in the year when Jupiter entersLeo. From the western zone, one of the prospective gurus he has in mind isyou. In fact he has wanted to appoint you guru since a long time, whether heappointed anyone else or not. He wished to know whether you would be willingto take on this responsibility. He feels that your knowledge will be anasset for SJC and many students will benefit for it, as they are alreadydoing. Please let me know whether you accept this proposal or not so that

Imay pass on your decision to himBest regards,Sarbani"If Sanjay wants me to give up my responsibilities as a Guru I would like him to say so and tell the shishyas whom I am teaching at present from which Guru they should learn. I would be glad to relinquish the responsibility, but only on say so of Sanjay or Narasimha.Regards,Chandrashekhar..Sarbani Sarkar wrote:

Om Klim Krishnaya Jagannathaya Svaha

Dear Chandrashekharji,

Please consider this as an administrative post. This is about time I intervened and protested against you. This mail should have been written only on the Vyasa but I am deliberately posting this on Varahamihira as I want every student to read this. Since you have maintained no decorum, neither will I, on behalf of myself and some of the gurus here. In my so many years in SJC this is the first time that I had to take such a strong stand against anyone. But you leave me with no options.

1. Neither you nor Saaji gave any scriptural reference nor did either of you discuss it at any point. The only person who did was Ajit. And the only person who raised the relevant question from it was Sanjay Prabhakaran. If both of you followed Shankara, you too would have asked the same question as he did, that from the Mundaka definition it appears that the Upanishads and the Vedas are apara. Does that make sense or is there an anomaly there? This question did not seem to strike you or Saaji. But it struck Shankara and hence he went on to give an explanation. What is your explanation Chandrashekharji? Naturally you are very uncomfortable with Shankara and with our discussions. The Mundaka has very clearly stated that the 4 Vedas and the 6 Vedangas are very important for Brahmagyana. Also the classification of para and apara in not on the basis of texts, but something else. Not at any point have you or Saaji discussed these issues, as I think you do not have the intention to do so. Your agenda seems to be something else.

2. Secondly, all I have been telling Saaji from the beginning was to reflect more. But it agitated him intensely. Why? It led him to fling accusations wildly. Why? Not only that, when I told him one day that it was past 1 a.m. in the night and that I would write to him in the morning, he turned around and accused me that I was not giving quotations!! Under your guidance Chandrashekharji!! All students in Varahamihira are under the guidance of their teachers. If he was a normal Varahamihira student he would have waited patiently till the next day and the discussions would have progressed at its own reflective pace and all in the list would have benefitted. Consequently, JHora, which arrived here exactly at that time and languished here in the office as I had to waste my time writing non-astrological mails to him in

order to clarify my statements. I asked him to read shlokas 13-17 of the chapter of karakas on Parasara. He disappeared. And started talking of his caste and his father. A student should have responded and discussed and from it the whole list would have benefitted. I was really looking forward to that. Not only the shlokas but Santhanam's commentaries as well. So, I repeat, what is your agenda Chandrashekharji?

3. It is you and your students Saaji and Prabodh who have been speaking in an insulting tone to the teachers here...without provocation. To challenge and to question in a healthy intellectual debate in one thing, but to be rude is another. Subsequently, I must admit Prabodh realised the utility of discussions. I had decided on the basis of this development sometime back that I would not respond to any students here, except those who are my own students and those who belong to the SJC Delhi study circle (for whom I am directly responsible), and of course to the gurus. It is not worth it. Parasara says, "Na deyam parashishyayam nastikayam shathaya cha". "Don't give this knowledge to another's shishya, a non-believer and to one who is deceitful and

malignant." Also, I don't have the time. Instead of wasting my time writing such mails as this, I would rather spend this time more valuably by exchanging views with Ajit and Sanjay P, who have reflected on Shankara's commentary and moved on to ponder over the higher spiritual implications for jyotish. And with Partha, Rafal and Lakshmi R, all of whom shared their views. That is what we should be doing here in Varahamihira. So that a student's doubt and query should lead us to study and reflect more and help us to grow by exchanging and sharing knowledge. If I am unable to do that, then it is pointless being here in Varahamihira.

The result of similar behaviour in the past is that many gurus quietly leave the lists. This includes Sanjayji, although he will cover it with Jupitarian sugariness and say he is busy and travelling. The Moderator is at the moment busy getting married, lest anyone accuse him that he is not doing his job. As far as I am concerned this has now become no better than the very public Vedic-Astrology. I also know, that this very mail of mine will be twisted and made into an issue as you have been twisting some mails to project a different scenario. I agree that Visti should not have dragged in the name of Narasimha. It was out of context and I don't know why he did so. In fact, Sanjayji did not like it either and had asked me to tell Visti to withdraw his statement. BUT Visti was right in asking Saaji who his guru was, as Saaji said he was only

following his guru. For some reason, Saaji did not stand up for you. And it was I who provided the name. But you twisted this event to once again project something else. Finally, Saaji made some comment about age and intelligence, to which I responded that though Visti, Partha and others were so young in age, we learn a lot from there. Again you twisted this mail of mine. I wonder why you are doing this Chandrashekharji?

For senior gurus in Vyasa

4. I sincerely request senior gurus in Vyasa to rethink about Varahamhira and our roles as teachers. For as of now, I don't feel very comfortable about sharing knowledge in this forum, and most DEFINITELY not parampara knowledge. The premise of such sharing is mutual intellectual respect and trust, which is sadly lacking.

I will write one last mail on this list giving the shlokas as Sanjayji had requested and as Chandrashekharji does not seem to have a clue about them. Actually I was going to do it for Saaji, when I realised that he was not interested in it. Till now we have only talked about the eligibility of teachers. I think we should talk of eligibility of students. We are so busy playing the role of a benign Jupiter that we overlook all this and turn a blind eye to this fetish of guru bashing.

Finally, this discussion on para vidya rose, as Prabodh was vehemently opposed to the association of astrology with spirituality. Similarly Saaji and Chandrashekharji's basic ground of agitation among other things is that the Mundaka is actually stating that jyotish is necessary for brahmagyana. So the primary discomfort of all three of them arises whenever there is a close connection with spirituality and jyotish. However, the rest of us are here only because we are interested in spiritual astrology. So there is a fundamental difference of opinion here. Hence you will observe Chandrashekharji's rejection of the spiritual aspect of the Atmakaraka. (He wrote in a mail to me that what does the 12th from Karakamsha have to do with the Atmakaraka?) The second is provocations regarding Atmakaraka and the chara karaka schemes, is because he does not

identify with Brhat Parasara all that much. His adherence is with Laghu Parasari. This is what I observed in conferences from his comments. That is all right as everyone has their own opinion. Hence whenever the question of chara karakas come up they back out of the discussions. So the two main problems that are easily identifiable are spirituality and Brhat Parasara.

With these two last mails I will not be reading any more mails on Varahamihira for some time. I am not running away. I will instead spend the time on finishing the production of SJC's first book by assisting the author and the printer. By assisting in the legalities of establishing such a publishing wing. By attending to JHora CD, the finalisation of the Guru Shishya database, the finalisation of the Membership Data Base, the finalisation of JD registration, writing my 3 papers for the coming conferences, attending the classes of my teachers, teaching the students under me and making the next conference in Delhi feasible. In between, if Varahamihira gives me the space for sharing with other members instead of writing mails like this, I will spend time on the list. As of now, it is a futile waste of time.

Om Gurave Namah.

Best regards,

Sarbani

[om jum sah vyam Vedavyasaaya namah sah jum om]

[om jum sah vyam Vedavyasaaya namah sah jum om]|Om Tat Sat|http://www.varahamihira