Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Dear Bharatji, Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather focussed on figuring out the implications/import of Vistijis words. I understand very well your position (strongly Advaitic) from a spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect it to astrology in the context of this discussion. In fact, your stance brings out an even more difficult question for me - is vedic astrology an unbiased tool for analyzing different spiritual philosophies, or is it itself biased in that it assumes a particular spiritual philosophy. Specifically, as in the ongoing discussion, when Vistji related the concept of charakarakatwas to a part of the process of embodiment of the soul (which I understood (not confirmed by Vistiji) as prakriti- purusha duality hence dwaitic), is this process universally accepted by all vedic texts? If yes, then fine, but if not, then is the concept of charakarakatwas not useful/have a different interpretation for those who to slightly different theories of embodiment of the soul? Your stance seems to fall somewhere in that category. Is your stance simply a syntactic terminology difference i.e. bondage vs. illusion or is there some meaningful difference and if so how do you then interpret charakarakatwas? It would be great if you could tell us your view on the embodiment of the soul and how charakaratwas relate to it.. Of course, to some, this discussion is meaningless fluff around " real " astrology (i.e. which combinations give which effect) but to me, this is the foundation based on which everything else rides.. And after we're done with this question, there is the additional question which Tijanaji threw in right towards the end - how exactly does the Ishta Devata fit into this - i.e. when we are relating charakarakatwas to the process of embodiment of the soul. This would be an interesting question even from your stance too.. Thanks, Sundeep sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " <astrologyhindu wrote: > > Namaste Sri Sundeep, Sri Visti, Sri Nitish > > Atman being ever free, where is the question of bondage? The bondage comes > from not-knowing the True nature of Atman and of erroneously thinking it is > something else. To say it bonded by karma or by eight things, is like saying > something is more powerful than omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent > Atman, that is can bind it. Furthermore, it means that something other than > Atman/Brahman exists that can bind it. If we take this view, then, we are > saying that Atman/Brahman are floating around in space with other things > that can bind them. This makes them limited in terms of space. Anything > limited is subject to change. Therefore, it is akin to calling changeless > Atman/Brahman as changing and limitless Atman/Brahman as limited. > > The idea therefore, has to be rejected. > > Karma does not bind the Atman and the verse quoted from Srimad Bhagavad Gita > has to be studied properly under a Guru. > > Thanks and Regards > Bharat > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 Namaste Sri SundeepI was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its seeking to know the Truth. Consider this:Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That I am happy is not a matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of Happiness. I complain when I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I being Atman/Brahman, does the Atmakaraka represents the force within the misapprehended small self to discover its natural state? If this be the case, then, the role of Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we consider that we have to overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to destroy the bondages but instead seek to question its own interpretations of life so far. Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I haven't studied many horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini system. I was seeking to understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this light. Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas would help in seeking and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus operandi? What situations in life would govern them? Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by turning the mind inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude towards all, Mars use the titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain patiently), enormous courage to face circumstances by standing by the Truth, Mercury provide viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability to understand and apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our obligatory duties without giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by spirit of yagna, and constancy of one's effort towards the Truth? This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that those who use Atmakaraka everyday may let me know their experiences with the subject. I do not propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand Atmakaraka in light of the above. I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in my earlier email. Thanks for being patient and for understanding my post. Thanks to Sri Soul too.Hope the above makes sense.Thanks and Regards BharatOn 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent > wrote: Dear Bharatji, Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather focussed on figuring out the implications/import of Vistijis words. I understand very well your position (strongly Advaitic) from a spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect it to astrology in the context of this discussion. In fact, your stance brings out an even more difficult question for me - is vedic astrology an unbiased tool for analyzing different spiritual philosophies, or is it itself biased in that it assumes a particular spiritual philosophy. Specifically, as in the ongoing discussion, when Vistji related the concept of charakarakatwas to a part of the process of embodiment of the soul (which I understood (not confirmed by Vistiji) as prakriti- purusha duality hence dwaitic), is this process universally accepted by all vedic texts? If yes, then fine, but if not, then is the concept of charakarakatwas not useful/have a different interpretation for those who to slightly different theories of embodiment of the soul? Your stance seems to fall somewhere in that category. Is your stance simply a syntactic terminology difference i.e. bondage vs. illusion or is there some meaningful difference and if so how do you then interpret charakarakatwas? It would be great if you could tell us your view on the embodiment of the soul and how charakaratwas relate to it.. Of course, to some, this discussion is meaningless fluff around " real " astrology (i.e. which combinations give which effect) but to me, this is the foundation based on which everything else rides.. And after we're done with this question, there is the additional question which Tijanaji threw in right towards the end - how exactly does the Ishta Devata fit into this - i.e. when we are relating charakarakatwas to the process of embodiment of the soul. This would be an interesting question even from your stance too.. Thanks, Sundeep sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " <astrologyhindu wrote: > > Namaste Sri Sundeep, Sri Visti, Sri Nitish > > Atman being ever free, where is the question of bondage? The bondage comes > from not-knowing the True nature of Atman and of erroneously thinking it is > something else. To say it bonded by karma or by eight things, is like saying > something is more powerful than omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent > Atman, that is can bind it. Furthermore, it means that something other than > Atman/Brahman exists that can bind it. If we take this view, then, we are > saying that Atman/Brahman are floating around in space with other things > that can bind them. This makes them limited in terms of space. Anything > limited is subject to change. Therefore, it is akin to calling changeless > Atman/Brahman as changing and limitless Atman/Brahman as limited. > > The idea therefore, has to be rejected. > > Karma does not bind the Atman and the verse quoted from Srimad Bhagavad Gita > has to be studied properly under a Guru. > > Thanks and Regards > Bharat > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Namaste Sri SoulIf we understand it methodically:Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These pursuits are named as:1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha.Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of pleasures. Dharma means following universal values in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also given in Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing oneself from perceived bondage. The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha and Kama pursuits are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced. They seek the infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated. Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be two cases: 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall start. 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to question and question all known " precepts and principles'. This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and why another struggles with himself/herself. It would be wonderful if people can share their experiences in this light. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak > wrote: Dear Bharat, What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can represnt 2 aspects like a flip side of the same coin. e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego - much like head and tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist, and Ego needs to be dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is Atman. So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there is some force within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this Bondage so as to realise the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents that. Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different perception of the Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on the level of their Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to day life may be a problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is the True Self or Force from Within. Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a sense. BRgds, SS sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " <astrologyhindu wrote: >> Namaste Sri Sundeep> > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its seeking to know the > Truth. Consider this:> > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That I am happy is not a> matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of Happiness. I complain when > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I being Atman/Brahman, does > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the misapprehended small self to> discover its natural state? If this be the case, then, the role of > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we consider that we have to > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to destroy the bondages but> instead seek to question its own interpretations of life so far. > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I haven't studied many > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini system. I was seeking to> understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this light. > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas would help in seeking > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus operandi? What situations> in life would govern them?> > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by turning the mind> inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude towards all, Mars use the > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain patiently), enormous > courage to face circumstances by standing by the Truth, Mercury provide> viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability to understand and > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our obligatory duties without > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by spirit of yagna, and> constancy of one's effort towards the Truth? > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that those who use Atmakaraka > everyday may let me know their experiences with the subject. I do not> propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand Atmakaraka in light of > the above.> > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in my earlier email. > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my post. Thanks to Sri Soul> too.> > Hope the above makes sense.> > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent wrote:> >> > Dear Bharatji,> > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather focussed on figuring> > out the implications/import of Vistijis words. > >> > I understand very well your position (strongly Advaitic) from a> > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect it to astrology> > in the context of this discussion. In fact, your stance brings out > > an even more difficult question for me - is vedic astrology an> > unbiased tool for analyzing different spiritual philosophies, or is> > it itself biased in that it assumes a particular spiritual > > philosophy.> >> > Specifically, as in the ongoing discussion, when Vistji related the> > concept of charakarakatwas to a part of the process of embodiment of> > the soul (which I understood (not confirmed by Vistiji) as prakriti- > > purusha duality hence dwaitic), is this process universally accepted> > by all vedic texts? If yes, then fine, but if not, then is the> > concept of charakarakatwas not useful/have a different > > interpretation for those who to slightly different> > theories of embodiment of the soul?> >> > Your stance seems to fall somewhere in that category. Is your> > stance simply a syntactic terminology difference i.e. bondage vs.> > illusion or is there some meaningful difference and if so how do you> > then interpret charakarakatwas? It would be great if you could tell> > us your view on the embodiment of the soul and how charakaratwas > > relate to it..> >> > Of course, to some, this discussion is meaningless fluff> > around " real " astrology (i.e. which combinations give which effect)> > but to me, this is the foundation based on which everything else > > rides..> >> > And after we're done with this question, there is the additional> > question which Tijanaji threw in right towards the end - how exactly> > does the Ishta Devata fit into this - i.e. when we are relating> > charakarakatwas to the process of embodiment of the soul. This would> > be an interesting question even from your stance too..> >> > Thanks,> > > > Sundeep> >> >> > sohamsa <sohamsa%40grou ps.com>, " Bharat - > > Hindu Astrology " > > astrologyhindu@ wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Sri Sundeep, Sri Visti, Sri Nitish > > >> > > Atman being ever free, where is the question of bondage? The > > bondage comes> > > from not-knowing the True nature of Atman and of erroneously> > thinking it is > > > something else. To say it bonded by karma or by eight things, is > > like saying> > > something is more powerful than omnipresent, omniscient and> > omnipotent> > > Atman, that is can bind it. Furthermore, it means that something > > other than > > > Atman/Brahman exists that can bind it. If we take this view, then,> > we are> > > saying that Atman/Brahman are floating around in space with other> > things > > > that can bind them. This makes them limited in terms of space. > > Anything> > > limited is subject to change. Therefore, it is akin to calling> > changeless> > > Atman/Brahman as changing and limitless Atman/Brahman as limited. > > > > > > The idea therefore, has to be rejected.> > >> > > Karma does not bind the Atman and the verse quoted from Srimad> > Bhagavad Gita> > > has to be studied properly under a Guru. > > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Namaste Bharat, You suggested sharing experiences. Please read my comments inline: Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force > that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be twocases: > 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and > Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall start. PC: My AK is Rahu. I somewhat know the purpose of my life; however, there are distractions. Distractions are my career and expectations from the world around and myself,too. I know since the beginning of Rahu dasha that whatever little bit material wealth I'm accumulating is not going to give me happiness, but at the same time I keep looking for material/financial security. And everytime I buy something " big " , I will it becomes useless for me. Compared to many, I think I realized quite early in life that material gains and conditional relationships can give only short-lived and relative happiness. I think it has happened due to Rahu being my AK, and so fast because I'm running Rahu mahadasha in Vimshottri. > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to > question and question all known " precepts and principles'. PC: I seem to fall into both categories that you specified. Although I'm on my path to fulfiling the purpose of my life, I'm still very far from it (quite obvious). However, I keep questioning whatever religion/scriptures say. It doesn't mean that I don't believe in them. It's simply lack of understanding, maybe. For example, I wonder all the time why did Krishna create this world and all the maya when all that pleases him is that we should only think of Him, love Him, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Another question that I keep wondering about is: We talk about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is when was the " FIRST TIME " when you, I, or anybody, did something " Good " or " Bad " to deserve the good or bad we have today. How did it all begin? These are very basic questions, but I know that only a few have realized the truth. Rest of us are still speculating Light! Promila --- Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu wrote: > Namaste Sri Soul > > If we understand it methodically: > > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These > pursuits are named as: > 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha. > > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of > pleasures. Dharma means > following universal values > in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also > given in > Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing > oneself from > perceived bondage. > > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha > and Kama pursuits > are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced. > They seek the > infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated. > > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force > that wishes a person > to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then > there can be two > cases: > 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and > Kama but would be > continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal. > Perhaps then, the > questioning shall start. > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to > question and question > all known " precepts and principles'. > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and > why another > struggles with himself/herself. > > It would be wonderful if people can share their > experiences in this light. > > Thanks and Regards > Bharat > > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak wrote: > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can > represnt 2 aspects > > like a flip side of the same coin. > > > > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego - > much like head and > > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist, > and Ego needs to be > > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is > Atman. > > > > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there > is some force > > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this > Bondage so as to realise > > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents > that. > > > > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different > perception of the > > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on > the level of their > > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to > day life may be a > > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is > the True Self or Force > > from Within. > > > > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a > sense. > > > > BRgds, > > > > SS > > > > > > sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu > Astrology " > > <astrologyhindu wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Sri Sundeep > > > > > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its > seeking to know the > > > > > Truth. Consider this: > > > > > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That > I am happy is not a > > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of > Happiness. I complain > > when > > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I > being Atman/Brahman, > > does > > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the > misapprehended small self > > to > > > discover its natural state? If this be the case, > then, the role of > > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we > consider that we have > > to > > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to > destroy the bondages > > but > > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of > life so far. > > > > > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I > haven't studied many > > > > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini > system. I was seeking > > to > > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this > light. > > > > > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas > would help in > > seeking > > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus > operandi? What > > situations > > > in life would govern them? > > > > > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by > turning the mind > > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude > towards all, Mars use > > the > > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain > patiently), enormous > > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the > Truth, Mercury provide > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability > to understand and > > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our > obligatory duties > > without > > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by > spirit of yagna, and > > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth? > > > > > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that > those who use > > Atmakaraka > > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the > subject. I do not > > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand > Atmakaraka in light > > of > > > the above. > > > > > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in > my earlier email. > > > > > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my > post. Thanks to Sri > > Soul > > > too. > > > > > > Hope the above makes sense. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Bharatji, > > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather > focussed on figuring > > > > out the implications/import of Vistijis words. > > > > > > > > I understand very well your position (strongly > Advaitic) from a > > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect > it === message truncated === ______________________________\ ____ Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? 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Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Hi Bharat, The charakaraka may not actually be a force, but rather just IS what it Is - the co-ordinate of the sookshama sharira - indicator of which factor is under consideration by the sookshama sharira (in the lifetime) and then, how much has it evolved may determine the kind of Goal or the level at which any of the 4 aspects are being worked at. e.g. if it is Kama, one cud be just getting to know relationships vs sex, and another cud be mastering tantra, so even with the same aspect to work on, the relative so-called nearness to Moksha wud be more for the latter than the former, considering all goes well and there had been no pitfalls. Brgds, SS sohamsa , "Bharat - Hindu Astrology" <astrologyhindu wrote:>> Namaste Sri Soul> > If we understand it methodically:> > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These pursuits are named as:> 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha.> > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of pleasures. Dharma means> following universal values> in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also given in> Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing oneself from> perceived bondage.> > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha and Kama pursuits> are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced. They seek the> infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated.> > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force that wishes a person> to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be two> cases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and Kama but would be> continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal. Perhaps then, the> questioning shall start.> 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to question and question> all known "precepts and principles'.> > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and why another> struggles with himself/herself.> > It would be wonderful if people can share their experiences in this light.> > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak soulsadhak wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat,> >> > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can represnt 2 aspects> > like a flip side of the same coin.> >> > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego - much like head and> > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist, and Ego needs to be> > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is Atman.> >> > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there is some force> > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this Bondage so as to realise> > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents that.> >> > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different perception of the> > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on the level of their> > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to day life may be a> > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is the True Self or Force> > from Within.> >> > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a sense.> >> > BRgds,> >> > SS> >> >> > sohamsa , "Bharat - Hindu Astrology"> > astrologyhindu@ wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Sri Sundeep> > >> > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its seeking to know the> >> > > Truth. Consider this:> > >> > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That I am happy is not a> > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of Happiness. I complain> > when> > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I being Atman/Brahman,> > does> > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the misapprehended small self> > to> > > discover its natural state? If this be the case, then, the role of> > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we consider that we have> > to> > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to destroy the bondages> > but> > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of life so far.> > >> > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I haven't studied many> >> > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini system. I was seeking> > to> > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this light.> > >> > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas would help in> > seeking> > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus operandi? What> > situations> > > in life would govern them?> > >> > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by turning the mind> > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude towards all, Mars use> > the> > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain patiently), enormous> > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the Truth, Mercury provide> > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability to understand and> > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our obligatory duties> > without> > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by spirit of yagna, and> > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth?> > >> > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that those who use> > Atmakaraka> > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the subject. I do not> > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand Atmakaraka in light> > of> > > the above.> > >> > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in my earlier email.> > >> > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my post. Thanks to Sri> > Soul> > > too.> > >> > > Hope the above makes sense.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Bharatji,> > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather focussed on figuring> > > > out the implications/import of Vistijis words.> > > >> > > > I understand very well your position (strongly Advaitic) from a> > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect it to astrology> > > > in the context of this discussion. In fact, your stance brings out> > > > an even more difficult question for me - is vedic astrology an> > > > unbiased tool for analyzing different spiritual philosophies, or is> > > > it itself biased in that it assumes a particular spiritual> > > > philosophy.> > > >> > > > Specifically, as in the ongoing discussion, when Vistji related the> > > > concept of charakarakatwas to a part of the process of embodiment of> > > > the soul (which I understood (not confirmed by Vistiji) as prakriti-> > > > purusha duality hence dwaitic), is this process universally accepted> > > > by all vedic texts? If yes, then fine, but if not, then is the> > > > concept of charakarakatwas not useful/have a different> > > > interpretation for those who to slightly different> > > > theories of embodiment of the soul?> > > >> > > > Your stance seems to fall somewhere in that category. Is your> > > > stance simply a syntactic terminology difference i.e. bondage vs.> > > > illusion or is there some meaningful difference and if so how do you> > > > then interpret charakarakatwas? It would be great if you could tell> > > > us your view on the embodiment of the soul and how charakaratwas> > > > relate to it..> > > >> > > > Of course, to some, this discussion is meaningless fluff> > > > around "real" astrology (i.e. which combinations give which effect)> > > > but to me, this is the foundation based on which everything else> > > > rides..> > > >> > > > And after we're done with this question, there is the additional> > > > question which Tijanaji threw in right towards the end - how exactly> > > > does the Ishta Devata fit into this - i.e. when we are relating> > > > charakarakatwas to the process of embodiment of the soul. This would> > > > be an interesting question even from your stance too..> > > >> > > > Thanks,> > > >> > > > Sundeep> > > >> > > >> > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40grou ps.com>, "Bharat -> >> > > > Hindu Astrology"> > > > astrologyhindu@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste Sri Sundeep, Sri Visti, Sri Nitish> > > > >> > > > > Atman being ever free, where is the question of bondage? The> > > > bondage comes> > > > > from not-knowing the True nature of Atman and of erroneously> > > > thinking it is> > > > > something else. To say it bonded by karma or by eight things, is> > > > like saying> > > > > something is more powerful than omnipresent, omniscient and> > > > omnipotent> > > > > Atman, that is can bind it. Furthermore, it means that something> > > > other than> > > > > Atman/Brahman exists that can bind it. If we take this view, then,> > > > we are> > > > > saying that Atman/Brahman are floating around in space with other> > > > things> > > > > that can bind them. This makes them limited in terms of space.> > > > Anything> > > > > limited is subject to change. Therefore, it is akin to calling> > > > changeless> > > > > Atman/Brahman as changing and limitless Atman/Brahman as limited.> > > > >> > > > > The idea therefore, has to be rejected.> > > > >> > > > > Karma does not bind the Atman and the verse quoted from Srimad> > > > Bhagavad Gita> > > > > has to be studied properly under a Guru.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > > Bharat> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Hi Promila, On the " Light " er side, Everything began from Nothing and shall return to Nothing it's the in between that bothers!!! GodBless SS sohamsa , Promila Chitkara <promilac wrote: > > > Namaste Bharat, > > You suggested sharing experiences. Please read my comments > inline: > > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force > > that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of > Atman/Brahman. Then there can be twocases: > > 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and > > Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even after > reaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall > start. > > PC: My AK is Rahu. I somewhat know the purpose of my life; > however, there are distractions. Distractions are my career > and expectations from the world around and myself,too. I > know since the beginning of Rahu dasha that whatever little > bit material wealth I'm accumulating is not going to give > me happiness, but at the same time I keep looking for > material/financial security. And everytime I buy something > " big " , I will it becomes useless for me. Compared to many, > I think I realized quite early in life that material gains > and conditional relationships can give only short-lived and > relative happiness. I think it has happened due to Rahu > being my AK, and so fast because I'm running Rahu mahadasha > in Vimshottri. > > > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to > > question and question all known " precepts and > principles'. > > PC: I seem to fall into both categories that you specified. > Although I'm on my path to fulfiling the purpose of my > life, I'm still very far from it (quite obvious). However, > I keep questioning whatever religion/scriptures say. It > doesn't mean that I don't believe in them. It's simply lack > of understanding, maybe. For example, I wonder all the time > why did Krishna create this world and all the maya when all > that pleases him is that we should only think of Him, love > Him, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have > to do it in the first place? > > Another question that I keep wondering about is: We talk > about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is when > was the " FIRST TIME " when you, I, or anybody, did something > " Good " or " Bad " to deserve the good or bad we have today. > How did it all begin? These are very basic questions, but I > know that only a few have realized the truth. Rest of us > are still speculating > > Light! > Promila > > > --- Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu > wrote: > > > Namaste Sri Soul > > > > If we understand it methodically: > > > > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These > > pursuits are named as: > > 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha. > > > > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of > > pleasures. Dharma means > > following universal values > > in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also > > given in > > Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing > > oneself from > > perceived bondage. > > > > > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha > > and Kama pursuits > > are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced. > > They seek the > > infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated. > > > > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force > > that wishes a person > > to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then > > there can be two > > cases: > > 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and > > Kama but would be > > continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal. > > Perhaps then, the > > questioning shall start. > > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to > > question and question > > all known " precepts and principles'. > > > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and > > why another > > struggles with himself/herself. > > > > It would be wonderful if people can share their > > experiences in this light. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak wrote: > > > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > > > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can > > represnt 2 aspects > > > like a flip side of the same coin. > > > > > > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego - > > much like head and > > > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist, > > and Ego needs to be > > > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is > > Atman. > > > > > > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there > > is some force > > > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this > > Bondage so as to realise > > > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents > > that. > > > > > > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different > > perception of the > > > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on > > the level of their > > > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to > > day life may be a > > > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is > > the True Self or Force > > > from Within. > > > > > > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a > > sense. > > > > > > BRgds, > > > > > > SS > > > > > > > > > sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu > > Astrology " > > > <astrologyhindu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste Sri Sundeep > > > > > > > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its > > seeking to know the > > > > > > > Truth. Consider this: > > > > > > > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That > > I am happy is not a > > > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of > > Happiness. I complain > > > when > > > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I > > being Atman/Brahman, > > > does > > > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the > > misapprehended small self > > > to > > > > discover its natural state? If this be the case, > > then, the role of > > > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we > > consider that we have > > > to > > > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to > > destroy the bondages > > > but > > > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of > > life so far. > > > > > > > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I > > haven't studied many > > > > > > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini > > system. I was seeking > > > to > > > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this > > light. > > > > > > > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas > > would help in > > > seeking > > > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus > > operandi? What > > > situations > > > > in life would govern them? > > > > > > > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by > > turning the mind > > > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude > > towards all, Mars use > > > the > > > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain > > patiently), enormous > > > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the > > Truth, Mercury provide > > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability > > to understand and > > > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our > > obligatory duties > > > without > > > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by > > spirit of yagna, and > > > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth? > > > > > > > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that > > those who use > > > Atmakaraka > > > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the > > subject. I do not > > > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand > > Atmakaraka in light > > > of > > > > the above. > > > > > > > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in > > my earlier email. > > > > > > > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my > > post. Thanks to Sri > > > Soul > > > > too. > > > > > > > > Hope the above makes sense. > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bharatji, > > > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather > > focussed on figuring > > > > > out the implications/import of Vistijis words. > > > > > > > > > > I understand very well your position (strongly > > Advaitic) from a > > > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect > > it > === message truncated === > > > > ____________________ ______________ > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on TV. > http://tv./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Dear Bharatji, I think I have finally understood your quandary. You relentlessly seek to interpret the symbols of vedic astrology using a monistic/non-dual/advaitic ideology. Whether the ultimate (i.e. the final unchangeable and unchanging) reality itself is monistic or not, and whether the One in that monism is the personal Krishna or the impersonal Brahman, I do not know (and I doubt if " I " even can know :-). But it is fairly clear to me now that the symbols of vedic astrology only apply to a dualistic reality, or to that *level of illusion* in monistic reality that is dualistic. They cannot and do not give any information of the monistic substrate that (potentially) underlies dualistic reality. So your exercise may turn out to be futile.. I say the above because as SS notes that there are multiple levels of interpretation (body, mind, AK-type-soul), but vedic astrology doesnt not go below a " desirous AK " . I doubt if vedic astrology's concept of AK is exactly the same as what you call the core Atma. It seems me that VA's AK is what you consider as core Atma, plus enough karma-carrying layers to make it *appear* desirous. The best VA does to signify the existence of a deeper reality is to hint at the existence of an Ishta Devata (which many people with deep insight on this group have identified as very important), which is the " final emancipation " of the AK. At that point (final emancipation) there is no more AK, i.e. *that is the end of duality*. The fact that the end of duality is the final goal, means that the symbols of VA themselves only deal with what happens before the end goal, and so the symbols themselves have to be interpreted in a dualistic framework. Of course, VA can very well talk about and identify people who have interest in monism/monistic ideologies, since these people are *still* dualistic. Once(if) they achieve their goal though, they cannot be analyzed using this framework. I wrote this after some fairly deep thinking.. I know a lot of you are probably shaking your heads saying " get a life! " .. But hope it interests at least some of you, else please ignore happily :-) thanks Sundeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Namaste Sri Promila Thanks for your experiences. It looks like Atmakaraka in whatever capacity would tend to guide/force your way to the Truth. Its force might be dependent upon the drishti of other grahas on it. That may be the cause of misplaced goals. Supposing Amatyakaraka is aspecting the Atmakaraka, then chances could be that Artha will play a role before it is realized that Truth has to be sought in a direct way. Your questions regarding 1, For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when allthat pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Did Krishna do it? For whom is the Maya - for Krishna or for us? For Krishna there was never Maya and never will be one. The shastras further say Viveka is needed to see between the real and unreal. A viveki sees the world as: Asti, Bhati, Priyam, Rupam,Nama chetyamshapanchakam,Adhyatrayam Brahmarupam, Jagad rupam tatodvayam.In Drg-Drsya-Viveka by Sri Adi Sankara (this verse is borrowed from an Upanishad by Sri Sankara) it is explained that every entity has five characteristics, existence, knowledge, bliss, form and name. Of these, the first three belong to Brahman and the last two to the world. Therefore, any object that is seen in the world, the name and form is what makes the object different from other creating duality and plurality. To the Aviveki, the shastras say, name and form bind as they erroneously consider them as the Reality. This is the misapprehension which the Shastra seek to remove. That is why the Shastra calls it a question of Realization and not a question of " becoming " . 2. We talk about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the " FIRST TIME " when you, I, or anybody, did something " Good " or " Bad " to deserve the good or bad we have today. How did it all begin? In view of Vedanta, good-bad is part of the dwandhas that one " binds " oneself in. That what is beneficial to the mind one calls as good, and the other as bad. There is a concept of Right and wrong. This concept comes from Dharma or universal values. Universal values are those values which depend upon your expectations from others. For example, all of us do not want others to injure us, hence our value becomes ahimsa. Once this value is made, we ought to (becomes obligatory duty) to be ahimsic towards all others. If we do any action in coignance of dharma, it becomes right. If not, then it becomes wrong. Right and wrong is also part of the dwandhas, but, have a special significance. Why so? When we act adharmic way, we have a value conflict that creates the guilt conscience. In that light, we make certain unhealthy judgements about ourselves, which take us further away from Truth. Moreove, they increase our desires in Artha and Kama, not realizing our true desire for Truth. Dharma burns the karmas, makes us mature and gives us the ability to realize our True goal. Furthermore, this question again delves into - Why and how this world is created? - The shastra says, the world isn't created, it is a figment of imagination born out of aviveka. It is for us to find that out, how it isn't created. Hope the replies help you in understanding the Shastra and that they make some sense. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/13/07, Promila Chitkara <promilac wrote: Namaste Bharat,You suggested sharing experiences. Please read my commentsinline:Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be twocases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even afterreaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall start.PC: My AK is Rahu. I somewhat know the purpose of my life;however, there are distractions. Distractions are my careerand expectations from the world around and myself,too. Iknow since the beginning of Rahu dasha that whatever little bit material wealth I'm accumulating is not going to giveme happiness, but at the same time I keep looking formaterial/financial security. And everytime I buy something " big " , I will it becomes useless for me. Compared to many, I think I realized quite early in life that material gainsand conditional relationships can give only short-lived andrelative happiness. I think it has happened due to Rahubeing my AK, and so fast because I'm running Rahu mahadasha in Vimshottri. > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question all known " precepts andprinciples'.PC: I seem to fall into both categories that you specified. Although I'm on my path to fulfiling the purpose of mylife, I'm still very far from it (quite obvious). However,I keep questioning whatever religion/scriptures say. Itdoesn't mean that I don't believe in them. It's simply lack of understanding, maybe. For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when allthat pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Another question that I keep wondering about is: We talkabout karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the " FIRST TIME " when you, I, or anybody, did something " Good " or " Bad " to deserve the good or bad we have today.How did it all begin? These are very basic questions, but Iknow that only a few have realized the truth. Rest of usare still speculating Light!Promila--- Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu wrote:> Namaste Sri Soul> > If we understand it methodically:> > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These> pursuits are named as: > 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha.> > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of> pleasures. Dharma means> following universal values> in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also > given in> Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing> oneself from> perceived bondage.> > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha> and Kama pursuits > are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced.> They seek the> infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated.> > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force > that wishes a person> to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then> there can be two> cases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be > continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal.> Perhaps then, the> questioning shall start.> 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question> all known " precepts and principles'. > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and> why another> struggles with himself/herself.> > It would be wonderful if people can share their> experiences in this light. > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak < soulsadhak wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat,> >> > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can> represnt 2 aspects> > like a flip side of the same coin. > >> > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego -> much like head and> > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist,> and Ego needs to be> > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is > Atman.> >> > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there> is some force> > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this> Bondage so as to realise > > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents> that.> >> > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different> perception of the> > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on > the level of their> > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to> day life may be a> > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is> the True Self or Force > > from Within.> >> > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a> sense.> >> > BRgds,> >> > SS> >> >> > sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu> Astrology " > > <astrologyhindu wrote: > > >> > > Namaste Sri Sundeep> > >> > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its> seeking to know the> >> > > Truth. Consider this: > > >> > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That> I am happy is not a> > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of> Happiness. I complain> > when > > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I> being Atman/Brahman,> > does> > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the> misapprehended small self> > to > > > discover its natural state? If this be the case,> then, the role of> > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we> consider that we have> > to> > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to > destroy the bondages> > but> > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of> life so far.> > >> > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I > haven't studied many> >> > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini> system. I was seeking> > to> > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this > light.> > >> > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas> would help in> > seeking> > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus> operandi? What > > situations> > > in life would govern them?> > >> > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by> turning the mind> > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude > towards all, Mars use> > the> > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain> patiently), enormous> > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the> Truth, Mercury provide > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability> to understand and> > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our> obligatory duties> > without > > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by> spirit of yagna, and> > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth?> > >> > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that > those who use> > Atmakaraka> > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the> subject. I do not> > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand> Atmakaraka in light > > of> > > the above.> > >> > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in> my earlier email.> > >> > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my > post. Thanks to Sri> > Soul> > > too.> > >> > > Hope the above makes sense.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent wrote: > > > >> > > > Dear Bharatji,> > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather> focussed on figuring> > > > out the implications/import of Vistijis words. > > > >> > > > I understand very well your position (strongly> Advaitic) from a> > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect> it === message truncated ===________Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on TV. http://tv./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Namaste Sri Sundeep Responses below: But it is fairly clear to me now that the symbols of vedic astrology only apply to a dualistic reality, or to that *level of illusion* in monistic reality that is dualistic. They cannot and do not give any information of the monistic substrate that (potentially) underlies dualistic reality. So your exercise may turn out to be futile.. You seem to give up too soon. The dualism-monism conflict is a creation of some intellectuals. Dualism means there are two. Monism means there is one. Vedanta says Only is - neither one nor two. For one and two cannot exist without each other. If you seek to understand my words in terms of monism-dualism, there shall be failure. Seek to understand these words in terms of what is and what we imagine it to be. Then, it would make sense. So exercise wouldn't be futile at all. I doubt if vedic astrology's concept of AK is exactly the same as what you call the core Atma. It seems me that VA's AK is what you consider as core Atma, plus enough karma-carrying layers to make it *appear* desirous. The best VA does to signify the existence of a deeper reality is to hint at the existence of an Ishta Devata (which many people with deep insight on this group have identified as very important), which is the " final emancipation " of the AK Vedic Astrology has to follow the Vedas. It cannot interpret something out of the blue unconnected to the Vedas. Moreover, what is core Atma and uncore Atma? Atma is Atma, core and uncore word isn't needed. Since our natural state or being is nothing but Brahman, we feel restricted in " this thought out limited state of body-mind-sense " . Hence, the Atmakaraka is the force that pulls us to discover the Truth that we are.(Limited example - Like Spring when pressed develops forces within itself to come back to its natural state) To see the Truth within ourselves, we may need to see it outside of us. The Ishta (as a thought, an idol, a shape, a guru), outside of us makes us see the light of Truth in something outside of us. There is an understanding called Savikalpa wherein the entirety is considered the Ishta or as the Lord, but not oneself. Therefore, the principle and role of the Ishta does not discount what I have said. You can also look upon Ishta as the " grace of the lord " , without which no knowledge can come. However, to get the grace enormous courage, desire to seek the Truth, discrimination to not fall for unreal goals, etc. have to be shown. That may be the role of the Atmakaraka. It is making us seek our natural state. Therefore, reconsider your conclusions. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/13/07, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent wrote: Dear Bharatji,I think I have finally understood your quandary. You relentlessly seek to interpret the symbols of vedic astrology using a monistic/non-dual/advaitic ideology. Whether the ultimate (i.e. the final unchangeable and unchanging) reality itself is monistic or not, and whether the One in that monism is the personal Krishna or the impersonal Brahman, I do not know (and I doubt if " I " even can know :-). But it is fairly clear to me now that the symbols of vedic astrology only apply to a dualistic reality, or to that *level of illusion* in monistic reality that is dualistic. They cannot and do not give any information of the monistic substrate that (potentially) underlies dualistic reality. So your exercise may turn out to be futile..I say the above because as SS notes that there are multiple levels of interpretation (body, mind, AK-type-soul), but vedic astrology doesnt not go below a " desirous AK " . I doubt if vedic astrology's concept of AK is exactly the same as what you call the core Atma. It seems me that VA's AK is what you consider as core Atma, plus enough karma-carrying layers to make it *appear* desirous. The best VA does to signify the existence of a deeper reality is to hint at the existence of an Ishta Devata (which many people with deep insight on this group have identified as very important), which is the " final emancipation " of the AK. At that point (final emancipation) there is no more AK, i.e. *that is the end of duality*. The fact that the end of duality is the final goal, means that the symbols of VA themselves only deal with what happens before the end goal, and so the symbols themselves have to be interpreted in a dualistic framework. Of course, VA can very well talk about and identify people who have interest in monism/monistic ideologies, since these people are *still* dualistic. Once(if) they achieve their goal though, they cannot be analyzed using this framework.I wrote this after some fairly deep thinking.. I know a lot of you are probably shaking your heads saying " get a life! " .. But hope it interests at least some of you, else please ignore happily :-) thanksSundeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Namaste Sri Soul I would consider it as a force,rather than a state that you seem to suggest, because it makes us seek. I have had the fortune of August company of many of India's great mahatmas and all of them said that EACH human birth gives the capability to realize the Truth. Knowledge burns ignorance of a thousand lifetimes as a single candle can lit a cave where darkness resided for a thousand years. The condition being your ability and understanding to seek it by goal of Truth. During the Atmakaraka dasha or periods of its influence, it would question and question again the illusion of other goals in seeking freedom. I would therefore, not limit the progress of charakarakas based on the chart, but, would rather use it as a tool to understand wherein one is moving in a needless direction. Secondly, it is possible that one may seek sex as a way of seeking freedom with the help of kama and may later realize using Tantra as a tool wherein, baser instincts of sex are cultured to realize humaneness and finally devotion (in one form of Tantra). I agree with you on this line of thinking. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/13/07, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak wrote: Hi Bharat, The charakaraka may not actually be a force, but rather just IS what it Is - the co-ordinate of the sookshama sharira - indicator of which factor is under consideration by the sookshama sharira (in the lifetime) and then, how much has it evolved may determine the kind of Goal or the level at which any of the 4 aspects are being worked at. e.g. if it is Kama, one cud be just getting to know relationships vs sex, and another cud be mastering tantra, so even with the same aspect to work on, the relative so-called nearness to Moksha wud be more for the latter than the former, considering all goes well and there had been no pitfalls. Brgds, SS sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " <astrologyhindu wrote:> > Namaste Sri Soul> > If we understand it methodically:> > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These pursuits are named as:> 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha. > > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of pleasures. Dharma means> following universal values> in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also given in> Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing oneself from > perceived bondage.> > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha and Kama pursuits> are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced. They seek the> infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated. > > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force that wishes a person> to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be two> cases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and Kama but would be > continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal. Perhaps then, the> questioning shall start.> 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to question and question> all known " precepts and principles'. > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and why another> struggles with himself/herself.> > It would be wonderful if people can share their experiences in this light. > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak soulsadhak wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat,> >> > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can represnt 2 aspects > > like a flip side of the same coin.> >> > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego - much like head and> > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist, and Ego needs to be > > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is Atman.> >> > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there is some force> > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this Bondage so as to realise > > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents that.> >> > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different perception of the> > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on the level of their > > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to day life may be a> > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is the True Self or Force> > from Within.> > > > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a sense.> >> > BRgds,> >> > SS> >> >> > sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " > > astrologyhindu@ wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Sri Sundeep> > >> > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its seeking to know the > >> > > Truth. Consider this:> > >> > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That I am happy is not a> > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of Happiness. I complain > > when> > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I being Atman/Brahman,> > does> > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the misapprehended small self > > to> > > discover its natural state? If this be the case, then, the role of> > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we consider that we have> > to> > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to destroy the bondages > > but> > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of life so far.> > >> > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I haven't studied many> > > > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini system. I was seeking> > to> > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this light.> > >> > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas would help in > > seeking> > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus operandi? What> > situations> > > in life would govern them?> > >> > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by turning the mind > > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude towards all, Mars use> > the> > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain patiently), enormous> > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the Truth, Mercury provide > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability to understand and> > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our obligatory duties> > without> > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by spirit of yagna, and > > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth?> > >> > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that those who use> > Atmakaraka> > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the subject. I do not > > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand Atmakaraka in light> > of> > > the above.> > >> > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in my earlier email. > > >> > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my post. Thanks to Sri> > Soul> > > too.> > >> > > Hope the above makes sense.> > > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Bharatji,> > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather focussed on figuring > > > > out the implications/import of Vistijis words.> > > >> > > > I understand very well your position (strongly Advaitic) from a> > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect it to astrology > > > > in the context of this discussion. In fact, your stance brings out> > > > an even more difficult question for me - is vedic astrology an> > > > unbiased tool for analyzing different spiritual philosophies, or is > > > > it itself biased in that it assumes a particular spiritual> > > > philosophy.> > > >> > > > Specifically, as in the ongoing discussion, when Vistji related the > > > > concept of charakarakatwas to a part of the process of embodiment of> > > > the soul (which I understood (not confirmed by Vistiji) as prakriti-> > > > purusha duality hence dwaitic), is this process universally accepted > > > > by all vedic texts? If yes, then fine, but if not, then is the> > > > concept of charakarakatwas not useful/have a different> > > > interpretation for those who to slightly different > > > > theories of embodiment of the soul?> > > >> > > > Your stance seems to fall somewhere in that category. Is your> > > > stance simply a syntactic terminology difference i.e. bondage vs.> > > > illusion or is there some meaningful difference and if so how do you> > > > then interpret charakarakatwas? It would be great if you could tell> > > > us your view on the embodiment of the soul and how charakaratwas > > > > relate to it..> > > >> > > > Of course, to some, this discussion is meaningless fluff> > > > around " real " astrology (i.e. which combinations give which effect) > > > > but to me, this is the foundation based on which everything else> > > > rides..> > > >> > > > And after we're done with this question, there is the additional > > > > question which Tijanaji threw in right towards the end - how exactly> > > > does the Ishta Devata fit into this - i.e. when we are relating> > > > charakarakatwas to the process of embodiment of the soul. This would > > > > be an interesting question even from your stance too..> > > >> > > > Thanks,> > > >> > > > Sundeep> > > >> > > > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40grou ps.com >, " Bharat -> >> > > > Hindu Astrology " > > > > astrologyhindu@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste Sri Sundeep, Sri Visti, Sri Nitish > > > > >> > > > > Atman being ever free, where is the question of bondage? The> > > > bondage comes> > > > > from not-knowing the True nature of Atman and of erroneously > > > > thinking it is> > > > > something else. To say it bonded by karma or by eight things, is> > > > like saying> > > > > something is more powerful than omnipresent, omniscient and > > > > omnipotent> > > > > Atman, that is can bind it. Furthermore, it means that something> > > > other than> > > > > Atman/Brahman exists that can bind it. If we take this view, then, > > > > we are> > > > > saying that Atman/Brahman are floating around in space with other> > > > things> > > > > that can bind them. This makes them limited in terms of space. > > > > Anything> > > > > limited is subject to change. Therefore, it is akin to calling> > > > changeless> > > > > Atman/Brahman as changing and limitless Atman/Brahman as limited. > > > > >> > > > > The idea therefore, has to be rejected.> > > > >> > > > > Karma does not bind the Atman and the verse quoted from Srimad> > > > Bhagavad Gita > > > > > has to be studied properly under a Guru.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > > Bharat> > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Dear Bharatji, I have no problem with the truth of what you say. Only that vedic astrology reflects it in exactly that form. I am not sure it does - but I will keep my mind open. If the role of the Atmakaraka were to seek its natural state of Onlyness, then Istha wouldnt be found from 12th from karakamsa in navamsa. That is another way of understanding my point. Ishta would instead be defined as always being in dharma trikona in navamsa. Thanks, Sundeep > To see the Truth within ourselves, we may need to see it outside of us. The > Ishta (as a thought, an idol, a shape, a guru), outside of us makes us see > the light of Truth in something outside of us. There is an understanding > called Savikalpa wherein the entirety is considered the Ishta or as the > Lord, but not oneself. Therefore, the principle and role of the Ishta does > not discount what I have said. You can also look upon Ishta as the " grace of > the lord " , without which no knowledge can come. However, to get the grace > enormous courage, desire to seek the Truth, discrimination to not fall for > unreal goals, etc. have to be shown. That may be the role of the Atmakaraka. > It is making us seek our natural state. > > Therefore, reconsider your conclusions. > > Thanks and Regards > Bharat > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Namaste Bharat, First of all, thanks for answering my questions. I understood your points very well, as they have been coming to me from all around for many years now. But there is a difference between "realizing" and merely "understanding the meaning of words". I'm yet to realize. For me, realization means, when there is no question--whatsoever--and the mind is quiet; silent at peace. And when the mind is quiet, I would not write/answer emails, I won't discuss anything with anybody. We exchange thoughts when we are not at peace with ourselves and the world. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I believe that the maya is also a creation of Krishna. I don't think human beings are powerful enough to even light a candle (rather make a candle--rather think that there can be candle at all) unless HE wants them to. From thought to action everything is His creation. To put it simply, all the technologies that drive the world crazy today is nothing but his creation Do you see where I am coming from--that this Buddhi or Kubudhi, both are His creation. O' Krishna--my Light dawn upon my mind like the sunshine each morning Promila Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindusohamsa Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:55:20 PMRe: Re: Jupiter as AK (to Bharatji) Namaste Sri Promila Thanks for your experiences. It looks like Atmakaraka in whatever capacity would tend to guide/force your way to the Truth. Its force might be dependent upon the drishti of other grahas on it. That may be the cause of misplaced goals. Supposing Amatyakaraka is aspecting the Atmakaraka, then chances could be that Artha will play a role before it is realized that Truth has to be sought in a direct way. Your questions regarding 1, For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when allthat pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Did Krishna do it? For whom is the Maya - for Krishna or for us? For Krishna there was never Maya and never will be one. The shastras further say Viveka is needed to see between the real and unreal. A viveki sees the world as: Asti, Bhati, Priyam, Rupam,Nama chetyamshapanchakam ,Adhyatrayam Brahmarupam, Jagad rupam tatodvayam.In Drg-Drsya-Viveka by Sri Adi Sankara (this verse is borrowed from an Upanishad by Sri Sankara) it is explained that every entity has five characteristics, existence, knowledge, bliss, form and name. Of these, the first three belong to Brahman and the last two to the world. Therefore, any object that is seen in the world, the name and form is what makes the object different from other creating duality and plurality. To the Aviveki, the shastras say, name and form bind as they erroneously consider them as the Reality. This is the misapprehension which the Shastra seek to remove. That is why the Shastra calls it a question of Realization and not a question of "becoming". 2. We talk about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the "FIRST TIME" when you, I, or anybody, did something"Good" or "Bad" to deserve the good or bad we have today. How did it all begin? In view of Vedanta, good-bad is part of the dwandhas that one "binds" oneself in. That what is beneficial to the mind one calls as good, and the other as bad. There is a concept of Right and wrong. This concept comes from Dharma or universal values. Universal values are those values which depend upon your expectations from others. For example, all of us do not want others to injure us, hence our value becomes ahimsa. Once this value is made, we ought to (becomes obligatory duty) to be ahimsic towards all others. If we do any action in coignance of dharma, it becomes right. If not, then it becomes wrong. Right and wrong is also part of the dwandhas, but, have a special significance. Why so? When we act adharmic way, we have a value conflict that creates the guilt conscience. In that light, we make certain unhealthy judgements about ourselves, which take us further away from Truth. Moreove, they increase our desires in Artha and Kama, not realizing our true desire for Truth. Dharma burns the karmas, makes us mature and gives us the ability to realize our True goal. Furthermore, this question again delves into - Why and how this world is created? - The shastra says, the world isn't created, it is a figment of imagination born out of aviveka. It is for us to find that out, how it isn't created. Hope the replies help you in understanding the Shastra and that they make some sense. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/13/07, Promila Chitkara <promilac > wrote: Namaste Bharat,You suggested sharing experiences. Please read my commentsinline:Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be twocases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even afterreaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall start.PC: My AK is Rahu. I somewhat know the purpose of my life;however, there are distractions. Distractions are my careerand expectations from the world around and myself,too. Iknow since the beginning of Rahu dasha that whatever little bit material wealth I'm accumulating is not going to giveme happiness, but at the same time I keep looking formaterial/financial security. And everytime I buy something"big", I will it becomes useless for me. Compared to many, I think I realized quite early in life that material gainsand conditional relationships can give only short-lived andrelative happiness. I think it has happened due to Rahubeing my AK, and so fast because I'm running Rahu mahadasha in Vimshottri. > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question all known "precepts andprinciples'.PC: I seem to fall into both categories that you specified. Although I'm on my path to fulfiling the purpose of mylife, I'm still very far from it (quite obvious). However,I keep questioning whatever religion/scriptures say. Itdoesn't mean that I don't believe in them. It's simply lack of understanding, maybe. For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when allthat pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Another question that I keep wondering about is: We talkabout karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the "FIRST TIME" when you, I, or anybody, did something "Good" or "Bad" to deserve the good or bad we have today.How did it all begin? These are very basic questions, but Iknow that only a few have realized the truth. Rest of usare still speculating Light!Promila--- Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@ gmail.com> wrote:> Namaste Sri Soul> > If we understand it methodically:> > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These> pursuits are named as: > 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha.> > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of> pleasures. Dharma means> following universal values> in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also > given in> Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing> oneself from> perceived bondage.> > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha> and Kama pursuits > are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced.> They seek the> infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated.> > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> that wishes a person> to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then> there can be two> cases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be> continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal.> Perhaps then, the> questioning shall start.> 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question> all known "precepts and principles'. > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and> why another> struggles with himself/herself.> > It would be wonderful if people can share their> experiences in this light. > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak < soulsadhak > wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat,> >> > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can> represnt 2 aspects> > like a flip side of the same coin. > >> > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego -> much like head and> > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist,> and Ego needs to be> > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is > Atman.> >> > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there> is some force> > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this> Bondage so as to realise> > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents> that.> >> > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different> perception of the> > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on > the level of their> > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to> day life may be a> > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is> the True Self or Force > > from Within.> >> > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a> sense.> >> > BRgds,> >> > SS> >> >> > sohamsa@ .com, "Bharat - Hindu> Astrology"> > <astrologyhindu@ ...> wrote: > > >> > > Namaste Sri Sundeep> > >> > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its> seeking to know the> >> > > Truth. Consider this: > > >> > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That> I am happy is not a> > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of> Happiness. I complain> > when > > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I> being Atman/Brahman,> > does> > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the> misapprehended small self> > to > > > discover its natural state? If this be the case,> then, the role of> > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we> consider that we have> > to> > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to > destroy the bondages> > but> > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of> life so far.> > >> > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I > haven't studied many> >> > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini> system. I was seeking> > to> > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this > light.> > >> > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas> would help in> > seeking> > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus> operandi? What > > situations> > > in life would govern them?> > >> > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by> turning the mind> > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude > towards all, Mars use> > the> > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain> patiently), enormous> > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the> Truth, Mercury provide > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability> to understand and> > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our> obligatory duties> > without> > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by> spirit of yagna, and> > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth?> > >> > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that > those who use> > Atmakaraka> > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the> subject. I do not> > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand> Atmakaraka in light > > of> > > the above.> > >> > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in> my earlier email.> > >> > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my > post. Thanks to Sri> > Soul> > > too.> > >> > > Hope the above makes sense.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > >> > > > Dear Bharatji,> > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather> focussed on figuring> > > > out the implications/ import of Vistijis words. > > > >> > > > I understand very well your position (strongly> Advaitic) from a> > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect> it === message truncated ===____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? 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Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Hi SS, Nothingness/fullness/emptiness there are all words until we "realize" the truth. Journeys toNameless universesMourns, laughsWears bodies; bares soulSeduces, renunciates And silently it enunciatesIts desireTo be the soul again *** Neither this, nor that Neither atoms, nor quarksNeither formless, nor shapelessNeither light, nor darknessNeither matter, nor energyNeither truth, nor illusionNether real, nor surrealNeither visible, nor invisibleNeither sound, nor silenceNeither experience, nor expressionNeither lives, nor diesNeither “your soul”, nor “my soul”Neither you, nor meNeither bonding, nor separationNeither body, nor mindNeither fullness, nor nothingness—Soul As it appears in my poetry, I seem to understand a little bit of what the truth is. But still I know that I'm yet to realize the truth--"I want to be the soul again":)Promila Soul Sadhak <soulsadhaksohamsa Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:13:24 PM Re: Jupiter as AK (to Bharatji) Hi Promila,On the "Light"er side, Everything began from Nothingand shall return to Nothingit's the in between that bothers!!!GodBlessSSsohamsa@ .com, Promila Chitkara <promilac@.. .> wrote:>> > Namaste Bharat,> > You suggested sharing experiences. Please read my comments> inline:> > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> > that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of> Atman/Brahman. Then there can be twocases:> > 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> > Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even after> reaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall> start.> > PC: My AK is Rahu. I somewhat know the purpose of my life;> however, there are distractions. Distractions are my career> and expectations from the world around and myself,too. I> know since the beginning of Rahu dasha that whatever little> bit material wealth I'm accumulating is not going to give> me happiness, but at the same time I keep looking for> material/financial security. And everytime I buy something> "big", I will it becomes useless for me. Compared to many,> I think I realized quite early in life that material gains> and conditional relationships can give only short-lived and> relative happiness. I think it has happened due to Rahu> being my AK, and so fast because I'm running Rahu mahadasha> in Vimshottri. > > > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> > question and question all known "precepts and> principles'.> > PC: I seem to fall into both categories that you specified.> Although I'm on my path to fulfiling the purpose of my> life, I'm still very far from it (quite obvious). However,> I keep questioning whatever religion/scriptures say. It> doesn't mean that I don't believe in them. It's simply lack> of understanding, maybe. For example, I wonder all the time> why did Krishna create this world and all the maya when all> that pleases him is that we should only think of Him, love> Him, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have> to do it in the first place? > > Another question that I keep wondering about is: We talk> about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is when> was the "FIRST TIME" when you, I, or anybody, did something> "Good" or "Bad" to deserve the good or bad we have today.> How did it all begin? These are very basic questions, but I> know that only a few have realized the truth. Rest of us> are still speculating > > Light!> Promila> > > --- Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@ ...>> wrote:> > > Namaste Sri Soul> > > > If we understand it methodically:> > > > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These> > pursuits are named as:> > 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha.> > > > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of> > pleasures. Dharma means> > following universal values> > in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also> > given in> > Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing> > oneself from> > perceived bondage.> > > > > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha> > and Kama pursuits> > are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced.> > They seek the> > infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated.> > > > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> > that wishes a person> > to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then> > there can be two> > cases:> > 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> > Kama but would be> > continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal.> > Perhaps then, the> > questioning shall start.> > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> > question and question> > all known "precepts and principles'.> > > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and> > why another> > struggles with himself/herself.> > > > It would be wonderful if people can share their> > experiences in this light.> > > > Thanks and Regards> > Bharat> > > > > > > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Bharat,> > >> > > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can> > represnt 2 aspects> > > like a flip side of the same coin.> > >> > > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego -> > much like head and> > > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist,> > and Ego needs to be> > > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is> > Atman.> > >> > > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there> > is some force> > > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this> > Bondage so as to realise> > > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents> > that.> > >> > > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different> > perception of the> > > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on> > the level of their> > > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to> > day life may be a> > > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is> > the True Self or Force> > > from Within.> > >> > > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a> > sense.> > >> > > BRgds,> > >> > > SS> > >> > >> > > sohamsa@ .com, "Bharat - Hindu> > Astrology"> > > <astrologyhindu@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Sundeep> > > >> > > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its> > seeking to know the> > >> > > > Truth. Consider this:> > > >> > > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That> > I am happy is not a> > > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of> > Happiness. I complain> > > when> > > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I> > being Atman/Brahman,> > > does> > > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the> > misapprehended small self> > > to> > > > discover its natural state? If this be the case,> > then, the role of> > > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we> > consider that we have> > > to> > > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to> > destroy the bondages> > > but> > > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of> > life so far.> > > >> > > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I> > haven't studied many> > >> > > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini> > system. I was seeking> > > to> > > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this> > light.> > > >> > > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas> > would help in> > > seeking> > > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus> > operandi? What> > > situations> > > > in life would govern them?> > > >> > > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by> > turning the mind> > > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude> > towards all, Mars use> > > the> > > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain> > patiently), enormous> > > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the> > Truth, Mercury provide> > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability> > to understand and> > > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our> > obligatory duties> > > without> > > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by> > spirit of yagna, and> > > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth?> > > >> > > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that> > those who use> > > Atmakaraka> > > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the> > subject. I do not> > > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand> > Atmakaraka in light> > > of> > > > the above.> > > >> > > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in> > my earlier email.> > > >> > > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my> > post. Thanks to Sri> > > Soul> > > > too.> > > >> > > > Hope the above makes sense.> > > >> > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent@> > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Bharatji,> > > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather> > focussed on figuring> > > > > out the implications/ import of Vistijis words.> > > > >> > > > > I understand very well your position (strongly> > Advaitic) from a> > > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect> > it > === message truncated ===> > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____________ __> Tonight's top picks. 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Guest guest Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Namaste Soul and Bharat, I've only one question to ask you both. It may not sound directly related, IT IS related indirectly, though. We should worship Ishtadevta so that the soul treads the right path. Likewise we should worship dharmadevta; palankarta et al depending who they are for us. Now my question is if all are different forms of Krishna (or Vishnu), then how does it matter which form I worship? Also, worshipping a form/avatara to get a good job; to get married, or whatsoever is only selfish worshipping, isn't it? For that matter worshipping the lord to bestow moksha is also selfish worshipping. That's why the Buddha said something like 'I would not get Nirvana unless each soul on earth is free of bondage'. Forget about the selfishing worshipping part. My question is why it should matter whether I worship SriKrooma (my Ishtadevata) or I worship Krishna (my deepest connection is with Krishna)? Will Krishna not show me the right path irrespective of whether He is my Ishtadevta or not? Eventually, it shouldn't matter who you worship, because all are forms of the same lord. Please shed light on this. The Divine Connection Like twin photonsour souls advancein different dimesions.Change in oneis the transformation of other Promila vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudentsohamsa Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:54:04 PM Re: Jupiter as AK (to Bharatji) Dear Bharatji,I think I have finally understood your quandary. You relentlessly seek to interpret the symbols of vedic astrology using a monistic/non- dual/advaitic ideology. Whether the ultimate (i.e. the final unchangeable and unchanging) reality itself is monistic or not, and whether the One in that monism is the personal Krishna or the impersonal Brahman, I do not know (and I doubt if "I" even can know :-). But it is fairly clear to me now that the symbols of vedic astrology only apply to a dualistic reality, or to that *level of illusion* in monistic reality that is dualistic. They cannot and do not give any information of the monistic substrate that (potentially) underlies dualistic reality. So your exercise may turn out to be futile..I say the above because as SS notes that there are multiple levels of interpretation (body, mind, AK-type-soul) , but vedic astrology doesnt not go below a "desirous AK". I doubt if vedic astrology's concept of AK is exactly the same as what you call the core Atma. It seems me that VA's AK is what you consider as core Atma, plus enough karma-carrying layers to make it *appear* desirous. The best VA does to signify the existence of a deeper reality is to hint at the existence of an Ishta Devata (which many people with deep insight on this group have identified as very important), which is the "final emancipation" of the AK. At that point (final emancipation) there is no more AK, i.e. *that is the end of duality*. The fact that the end of duality is the final goal, means that the symbols of VA themselves only deal with what happens before the end goal, and so the symbols themselves have to be interpreted in a dualistic framework. Of course, VA can very well talk about and identify people who have interest in monism/monistic ideologies, since these people are *still* dualistic. Once(if) they achieve their goal though, they cannot be analyzed using this framework.I wrote this after some fairly deep thinking.. I know a lot of you are probably shaking your heads saying "get a life!".. But hope it interests at least some of you, else please ignore happily :-)thanksSundeep Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Namaste Sri SundeepVedic Astrology has to reflect it in that manner since it is to follow the Veda. If you were to read Sri Sanjay Rath's paper on Atmakaraka(2004, SJC), he is defining Atma not as Atman. Therefore, he is referring to it as a conditioned consciousness that follows the mind, which the Veda say is an error on the mind's part. Atman remains free. " Atma " even if being referred to the erroneous conclusion of the mind, to be " its " , remains free. Therefore, the role of the Atmakaraka shall be: To seek its natural state. In doing so, it shall have two fold approach: 1. To try and seek its natural state through erroneous conclusion that Artha and Kama desire satisfaction shall achieve the goal. In this case Atmakaraka shall realize its folly upon reaching the goals or sometimes nearing it. 2. To try and seek its natural state through the purushartha of Moksha. The erroneous conclusion can be rectified by the blessings of the Lord (the very Atman/Brahman) that we seek. Since it is omniscient and omnipresent, an external diety is taken to represent It. Thus, the role of Ishta is not negated. Why do you say, if above is the case then, 12th house will not be taken from the karkamsha for Ishta? Sorry for the delay in response, I have been keeping very busy with some new projects nowadays. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/14/07, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent > wrote: Dear Bharatji,I have no problem with the truth of what you say. Only that vedic astrology reflects it in exactly that form. I am not sure it does - but I will keep my mind open.If the role of the Atmakaraka were to seek its natural state of Onlyness, then Istha wouldnt be found from 12th from karakamsa in navamsa. That is another way of understanding my point. Ishta would instead be defined as always being in dharma trikona in navamsa.Thanks, Sundeep> To see the Truth within ourselves, we may need to see it outside of us. The> Ishta (as a thought, an idol, a shape, a guru), outside of us makes us see> the light of Truth in something outside of us. There is an understanding> called Savikalpa wherein the entirety is considered the Ishta or as the> Lord, but not oneself. Therefore, the principle and role of the Ishta does> not discount what I have said. You can also look upon Ishta as the " grace of> the lord " , without which no knowledge can come. However, to get the grace> enormous courage, desire to seek the Truth, discrimination to not fall for> unreal goals, etc. have to be shown. That may be the role of the Atmakaraka.> It is making us seek our natural state.> > Therefore, reconsider your conclusions.> > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Namaste Sri Promila Ofcourse intellectual understanding and realization are two different things. But, when we discuss subjects pretaining to Atman, they come under the purview of Brahm Vidya. Sri Adi Sankara and the Veda specifies sravana, manana and niddhidhyasana for the same. Every wrong conclusion that we have of Atman, is to be questioned and corrected. This requires listening, repeated thinking upon the same, and absorbing its implications. We are only doing that. To believe in something erroneous whether intellectually or otherwise, isn't going to help in Brahm Vidya. To believe Sri Krishna is the creator and the entirety is his creation is a fine example of devotion. But, should the devotion stop there? - If Krishna is all there is before creation, then the creation must be made of him and by him. That means the creation is nothing, but Krishna itself. Therefore, it implies the same thing that I say. Now, the question is then, who are you? - Wouldn't you be the same Krishna? If you do not realize, keep that in your mind. Have faith in the words of the Shastras and say that your truth is Krishna. Thereafter, the questioning shall automatically begin of the rest. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/14/07, Promila Chitkara <promilac wrote: Namaste Bharat, First of all, thanks for answering my questions. I understood your points very well, as they have been coming to me from all around for many years now. But there is a difference between " realizing " and merely " understanding the meaning of words " . I'm yet to realize. For me, realization means, when there is no question--whatsoever--and the mind is quiet; silent at peace. And when the mind is quiet, I would not write/answer emails, I won't discuss anything with anybody. We exchange thoughts when we are not at peace with ourselves and the world. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I believe that the maya is also a creation of Krishna. I don't think human beings are powerful enough to even light a candle (rather make a candle--rather think that there can be candle at all) unless HE wants them to. From thought to action everything is His creation. To put it simply, all the technologies that drive the world crazy today is nothing but his creation Do you see where I am coming from--that this Buddhi or Kubudhi, both are His creation. O' Krishna--my Light dawn upon my mind like the sunshine each morning Promila Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@ gmail.com>sohamsa Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:55:20 PMRe: Re: Jupiter as AK (to Bharatji) Namaste Sri Promila Thanks for your experiences. It looks like Atmakaraka in whatever capacity would tend to guide/force your way to the Truth. Its force might be dependent upon the drishti of other grahas on it. That may be the cause of misplaced goals. Supposing Amatyakaraka is aspecting the Atmakaraka, then chances could be that Artha will play a role before it is realized that Truth has to be sought in a direct way. Your questions regarding 1, For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when allthat pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Did Krishna do it? For whom is the Maya - for Krishna or for us? For Krishna there was never Maya and never will be one. The shastras further say Viveka is needed to see between the real and unreal. A viveki sees the world as: Asti, Bhati, Priyam, Rupam,Nama chetyamshapanchakam ,Adhyatrayam Brahmarupam, Jagad rupam tatodvayam.In Drg-Drsya-Viveka by Sri Adi Sankara (this verse is borrowed from an Upanishad by Sri Sankara) it is explained that every entity has five characteristics, existence, knowledge, bliss, form and name. Of these, the first three belong to Brahman and the last two to the world. Therefore, any object that is seen in the world, the name and form is what makes the object different from other creating duality and plurality. To the Aviveki, the shastras say, name and form bind as they erroneously consider them as the Reality. This is the misapprehension which the Shastra seek to remove. That is why the Shastra calls it a question of Realization and not a question of " becoming " . 2. We talk about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the " FIRST TIME " when you, I, or anybody, did something " Good " or " Bad " to deserve the good or bad we have today. How did it all begin? In view of Vedanta, good-bad is part of the dwandhas that one " binds " oneself in. That what is beneficial to the mind one calls as good, and the other as bad. There is a concept of Right and wrong. This concept comes from Dharma or universal values. Universal values are those values which depend upon your expectations from others. For example, all of us do not want others to injure us, hence our value becomes ahimsa. Once this value is made, we ought to (becomes obligatory duty) to be ahimsic towards all others. If we do any action in coignance of dharma, it becomes right. If not, then it becomes wrong. Right and wrong is also part of the dwandhas, but, have a special significance. Why so? When we act adharmic way, we have a value conflict that creates the guilt conscience. In that light, we make certain unhealthy judgements about ourselves, which take us further away from Truth. Moreove, they increase our desires in Artha and Kama, not realizing our true desire for Truth. Dharma burns the karmas, makes us mature and gives us the ability to realize our True goal. Furthermore, this question again delves into - Why and how this world is created? - The shastra says, the world isn't created, it is a figment of imagination born out of aviveka. It is for us to find that out, how it isn't created. Hope the replies help you in understanding the Shastra and that they make some sense. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/13/07, Promila Chitkara < promilac > wrote: Namaste Bharat,You suggested sharing experiences. Please read my commentsinline:Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be twocases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even afterreaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall start.PC: My AK is Rahu. I somewhat know the purpose of my life;however, there are distractions. Distractions are my careerand expectations from the world around and myself,too. I know since the beginning of Rahu dasha that whatever little bit material wealth I'm accumulating is not going to giveme happiness, but at the same time I keep looking formaterial/financial security. And everytime I buy something " big " , I will it becomes useless for me. Compared to many, I think I realized quite early in life that material gainsand conditional relationships can give only short-lived andrelative happiness. I think it has happened due to Rahu being my AK, and so fast because I'm running Rahu mahadasha in Vimshottri. > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question all known " precepts and principles'.PC: I seem to fall into both categories that you specified. Although I'm on my path to fulfiling the purpose of mylife, I'm still very far from it (quite obvious). However, I keep questioning whatever religion/scriptures say. Itdoesn't mean that I don't believe in them. It's simply lack of understanding, maybe. For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when all that pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Another question that I keep wondering about is: We talk about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the " FIRST TIME " when you, I, or anybody, did something " Good " or " Bad " to deserve the good or bad we have today. How did it all begin? These are very basic questions, but Iknow that only a few have realized the truth. Rest of usare still speculating Light!Promila--- Bharat - Hindu Astrology < astrologyhindu@ gmail.com> wrote:> Namaste Sri Soul> > If we understand it methodically:> > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These> pursuits are named as: > 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha.> > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of> pleasures. Dharma means> following universal values> in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also > given in> Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing> oneself from> perceived bondage.> > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha> and Kama pursuits > are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced.> They seek the> infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated.> > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force > that wishes a person> to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then> there can be two> cases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be > continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal.> Perhaps then, the> questioning shall start.> 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question> all known " precepts and principles'. > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and> why another> struggles with himself/herself.> > It would be wonderful if people can share their> experiences in this light. > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak < soulsadhak > wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat,> >> > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can> represnt 2 aspects> > like a flip side of the same coin. > > > > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego -> much like head and> > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist,> and Ego needs to be> > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is > Atman.> >> > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there> is some force> > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this> Bondage so as to realise > > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents> that.> >> > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different> perception of the> > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on > the level of their> > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to> day life may be a> > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is> the True Self or Force > > from Within.> >> > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a> sense.> >> > BRgds,> >> > SS> >> >> > sohamsa@ .com, " Bharat - Hindu> Astrology " > > <astrologyhindu@ ...> wrote: > > >> > > Namaste Sri Sundeep> > >> > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its> seeking to know the> >> > > Truth. Consider this: > > >> > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That> I am happy is not a> > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of> Happiness. I complain> > when > > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I> being Atman/Brahman,> > does> > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the> misapprehended small self> > to > > > discover its natural state? If this be the case,> then, the role of> > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we> consider that we have> > to> > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to > destroy the bondages> > but> > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of> life so far.> > >> > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I > haven't studied many> >> > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini> system. I was seeking> > to> > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this > light.> > >> > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas> would help in> > seeking> > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus> operandi? What > > situations> > > in life would govern them?> > >> > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by> turning the mind> > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude > towards all, Mars use> > the> > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain> patiently), enormous> > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the> Truth, Mercury provide > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability> to understand and> > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our> obligatory duties> > without > > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by> spirit of yagna, and> > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth?> > >> > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that > those who use> > Atmakaraka> > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the> subject. I do not> > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand> Atmakaraka in light > > of> > > the above.> > >> > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in> my earlier email.> > >> > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my > post. Thanks to Sri> > Soul> > > too.> > >> > > Hope the above makes sense.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > >> > > > Dear Bharatji,> > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather> focussed on figuring> > > > out the implications/ import of Vistijis words. > > > >> > > > I understand very well your position (strongly> Advaitic) from a> > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect> it === message truncated ===____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? 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Guest guest Posted September 22, 2007 Report Share Posted September 22, 2007 Namaste Sri Promila If you do consider all forms are that of Krishna, then, it wouldn't matter which form you take as Ishta. This is what I have been saying, that if you consider Atman is all there is - then any form can be taken as Ishta. However, if your natural inclination is pulling you towards a particular form of the Lord, then, there isn't any harm in worshiping the same. Moksha isn't selfish, it is SELFish. It is that of the larger Self, of true Self. Not the ego self. Come to think of it, Moksha is what we desire as it is our natural state. It does not strengthen the ego - so it isn't " self " ish. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/14/07, Promila Chitkara <promilac wrote: Namaste Soul and Bharat, I've only one question to ask you both. It may not sound directly related, IT IS related indirectly, though. We should worship Ishtadevta so that the soul treads the right path. Likewise we should worship dharmadevta; palankarta et al depending who they are for us. Now my question is if all are different forms of Krishna (or Vishnu), then how does it matter which form I worship? Also, worshipping a form/avatara to get a good job; to get married, or whatsoever is only selfish worshipping, isn't it? For that matter worshipping the lord to bestow moksha is also selfish worshipping. That's why the Buddha said something like 'I would not get Nirvana unless each soul on earth is free of bondage'. Forget about the selfishing worshipping part. My question is why it should matter whether I worship SriKrooma (my Ishtadevata) or I worship Krishna (my deepest connection is with Krishna)? Will Krishna not show me the right path irrespective of whether He is my Ishtadevta or not? Eventually, it shouldn't matter who you worship, because all are forms of the same lord. Please shed light on this. The Divine Connection Like twin photonsour souls advancein different dimesions.Change in oneis the transformation of other Promila vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ >sohamsa Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:54:04 PM Re: Jupiter as AK (to Bharatji) Dear Bharatji,I think I have finally understood your quandary. You relentlessly seek to interpret the symbols of vedic astrology using a monistic/non- dual/advaitic ideology. Whether the ultimate (i.e. the final unchangeable and unchanging) reality itself is monistic or not, and whether the One in that monism is the personal Krishna or the impersonal Brahman, I do not know (and I doubt if " I " even can know :-). But it is fairly clear to me now that the symbols of vedic astrology only apply to a dualistic reality, or to that *level of illusion* in monistic reality that is dualistic. They cannot and do not give any information of the monistic substrate that (potentially) underlies dualistic reality. So your exercise may turn out to be futile..I say the above because as SS notes that there are multiple levels of interpretation (body, mind, AK-type-soul) , but vedic astrology doesnt not go below a " desirous AK " . I doubt if vedic astrology's concept of AK is exactly the same as what you call the core Atma. It seems me that VA's AK is what you consider as core Atma, plus enough karma-carrying layers to make it *appear* desirous. The best VA does to signify the existence of a deeper reality is to hint at the existence of an Ishta Devata (which many people with deep insight on this group have identified as very important), which is the " final emancipation " of the AK. At that point (final emancipation) there is no more AK, i.e. *that is the end of duality*. The fact that the end of duality is the final goal, means that the symbols of VA themselves only deal with what happens before the end goal, and so the symbols themselves have to be interpreted in a dualistic framework. Of course, VA can very well talk about and identify people who have interest in monism/monistic ideologies, since these people are *still* dualistic. Once(if) they achieve their goal though, they cannot be analyzed using this framework.I wrote this after some fairly deep thinking.. I know a lot of you are probably shaking your heads saying " get a life! " .. But hope it interests at least some of you, else please ignore happily :-) thanksSundeep Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 Namaste Bharat, Your explanation is so very profound. Thanks a lot I'll keep all that in my mind. God Bless You! Promila Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindusohamsa Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 6:20:02 PMRe: Re: Jupiter as AK (to Bharatji) Namaste Sri Promila Ofcourse intellectual understanding and realization are two different things. But, when we discuss subjects pretaining to Atman, they come under the purview of Brahm Vidya. Sri Adi Sankara and the Veda specifies sravana, manana and niddhidhyasana for the same. Every wrong conclusion that we have of Atman, is to be questioned and corrected. This requires listening, repeated thinking upon the same, and absorbing its implications. We are only doing that. To believe in something erroneous whether intellectually or otherwise, isn't going to help in Brahm Vidya. To believe Sri Krishna is the creator and the entirety is his creation is a fine example of devotion. But, should the devotion stop there? - If Krishna is all there is before creation, then the creation must be made of him and by him. That means the creation is nothing, but Krishna itself. Therefore, it implies the same thing that I say. Now, the question is then, who are you? - Wouldn't you be the same Krishna? If you do not realize, keep that in your mind. Have faith in the words of the Shastras and say that your truth is Krishna. Thereafter, the questioning shall automatically begin of the rest. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/14/07, Promila Chitkara <promilac > wrote: Namaste Bharat, First of all, thanks for answering my questions. I understood your points very well, as they have been coming to me from all around for many years now. But there is a difference between "realizing" and merely "understanding the meaning of words". I'm yet to realize. For me, realization means, when there is no question--whatsoeve r--and the mind is quiet; silent at peace. And when the mind is quiet, I would not write/answer emails, I won't discuss anything with anybody. We exchange thoughts when we are not at peace with ourselves and the world. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I believe that the maya is also a creation of Krishna. I don't think human beings are powerful enough to even light a candle (rather make a candle--rather think that there can be candle at all) unless HE wants them to. From thought to action everything is His creation. To put it simply, all the technologies that drive the world crazy today is nothing but his creation Do you see where I am coming from--that this Buddhi or Kubudhi, both are His creation. O' Krishna--my Light dawn upon my mind like the sunshine each morning Promila Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@ gmail.com>sohamsa@ .comThursday, September 13, 2007 11:55:20 PMRe: Re: Jupiter as AK (to Bharatji) Namaste Sri Promila Thanks for your experiences. It looks like Atmakaraka in whatever capacity would tend to guide/force your way to the Truth. Its force might be dependent upon the drishti of other grahas on it. That may be the cause of misplaced goals. Supposing Amatyakaraka is aspecting the Atmakaraka, then chances could be that Artha will play a role before it is realized that Truth has to be sought in a direct way. Your questions regarding 1, For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when allthat pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Did Krishna do it? For whom is the Maya - for Krishna or for us? For Krishna there was never Maya and never will be one. The shastras further say Viveka is needed to see between the real and unreal. A viveki sees the world as: Asti, Bhati, Priyam, Rupam,Nama chetyamshapanchakam ,Adhyatrayam Brahmarupam, Jagad rupam tatodvayam.In Drg-Drsya-Viveka by Sri Adi Sankara (this verse is borrowed from an Upanishad by Sri Sankara) it is explained that every entity has five characteristics, existence, knowledge, bliss, form and name. Of these, the first three belong to Brahman and the last two to the world. Therefore, any object that is seen in the world, the name and form is what makes the object different from other creating duality and plurality. To the Aviveki, the shastras say, name and form bind as they erroneously consider them as the Reality. This is the misapprehension which the Shastra seek to remove. That is why the Shastra calls it a question of Realization and not a question of "becoming". 2. We talk about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the "FIRST TIME" when you, I, or anybody, did something"Good" or "Bad" to deserve the good or bad we have today. How did it all begin? In view of Vedanta, good-bad is part of the dwandhas that one "binds" oneself in. That what is beneficial to the mind one calls as good, and the other as bad. There is a concept of Right and wrong. This concept comes from Dharma or universal values. Universal values are those values which depend upon your expectations from others. For example, all of us do not want others to injure us, hence our value becomes ahimsa. Once this value is made, we ought to (becomes obligatory duty) to be ahimsic towards all others. If we do any action in coignance of dharma, it becomes right. If not, then it becomes wrong. Right and wrong is also part of the dwandhas, but, have a special significance. Why so? When we act adharmic way, we have a value conflict that creates the guilt conscience. In that light, we make certain unhealthy judgements about ourselves, which take us further away from Truth. Moreove, they increase our desires in Artha and Kama, not realizing our true desire for Truth. Dharma burns the karmas, makes us mature and gives us the ability to realize our True goal. Furthermore, this question again delves into - Why and how this world is created? - The shastra says, the world isn't created, it is a figment of imagination born out of aviveka. It is for us to find that out, how it isn't created. Hope the replies help you in understanding the Shastra and that they make some sense. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 9/13/07, Promila Chitkara < promilac > wrote: Namaste Bharat,You suggested sharing experiences. Please read my commentsinline:Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> that wishes a person to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then there can be twocases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be continuously be frustrated even afterreaching the goal. Perhaps then, the questioning shall start.PC: My AK is Rahu. I somewhat know the purpose of my life;however, there are distractions. Distractions are my careerand expectations from the world around and myself,too. I know since the beginning of Rahu dasha that whatever little bit material wealth I'm accumulating is not going to giveme happiness, but at the same time I keep looking formaterial/financial security. And everytime I buy something "big", I will it becomes useless for me. Compared to many, I think I realized quite early in life that material gainsand conditional relationships can give only short-lived andrelative happiness. I think it has happened due to Rahu being my AK, and so fast because I'm running Rahu mahadasha in Vimshottri. > 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question all known "precepts and principles'.PC: I seem to fall into both categories that you specified. Although I'm on my path to fulfiling the purpose of mylife, I'm still very far from it (quite obvious). However, I keep questioning whatever religion/scriptures say. Itdoesn't mean that I don't believe in them. It's simply lack of understanding, maybe. For example, I wonder all the timewhy did Krishna create this world and all the maya when all that pleases him is that we should only think of Him, loveHim, and do whatever we do, for Him. Why did Krishna have to do it in the first place? Another question that I keep wondering about is: We talk about karma theory and Law of Retribution. My point is whenwas the "FIRST TIME" when you, I, or anybody, did something "Good" or "Bad" to deserve the good or bad we have today.How did it all begin? These are very basic questions, but Iknow that only a few have realized the truth. Rest of usare still speculating Light!Promila--- Bharat - Hindu Astrology < astrologyhindu@ gmail.com> wrote:> Namaste Sri Soul> > If we understand it methodically:> > Sookshma Sarira strives for a certain desires. These> pursuits are named as: > 1. Dharma 2. Artha 3. Kama 4. Moksha.> > Artha is pursuit of securities. Kama is pursuit of> pleasures. Dharma means> following universal values> in our pursuits. The universalvalues are in born and also > given in> Srimad Bhagavad Gita. Moksha is a pursuit of freeing> oneself from> perceived bondage.> > > The shastras say and it is also evident, that even Artha> and Kama pursuits > are meant for freedom, but, their goals are misplaced.> They seek the> infinite in the finite, continually getting frustrated.> > Coming to Atmakaraka - considering it to be the force> that wishes a person> to seek its natural nature - that of Atman/Brahman. Then> there can be two> cases:> 1. When the goal is misplaced, one would seek Artha and> Kama but would be> continuously be frustrated even after reaching the goal.> Perhaps then, the> questioning shall start.> 2. When the goal is rightly placed, one would seek to> question and question> all known "precepts and principles'. > > This difference may prove why one is Sri Vivekananda and> why another> struggles with himself/herself.> > It would be wonderful if people can share their> experiences in this light. > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > > On 9/11/07, Soul Sadhak < soulsadhak > wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat,> >> > What i look at it is this way - the same karaka can> represnt 2 aspects> > like a flip side of the same coin. > > > > e.g. Su represents Inner Self/Atman as well a Ego -> much like head and> > tail, because without sense of Ego, Self doesnt exist,> and Ego needs to be> > dissolved for realising the true nature of Self that is > Atman.> >> > So Ego prevails until Ignorance is there and then there> is some force> > within that Limited Being seeks dissolution of this> Bondage so as to realise> > the True Nature (Atman) - so may be su as AK represents> that.> >> > Hence, even 2 persons with Su as AK may have different> perception of the> > Self vs. Absolute or Atman vs. Parmatman depending on > the level of their> > Soul's Evolution - to one, bending one's Ego in day to> day life may be a> > problem, while to another like Vivekananda, Atman is> the True Self or Force > > from Within.> >> > Likewise what u say re. the other karakas makes quite a> sense.> >> > BRgds,> >> > SS> >> >> > sohamsa@ .com, "Bharat - Hindu> Astrology"> > <astrologyhindu@ ...> wrote: > > >> > > Namaste Sri Sundeep> > >> > > I was trying to define the role of Atmakaraka in its> seeking to know the> >> > > Truth. Consider this: > > >> > > Anything natural is not a matter for complaint. That> I am happy is not a> > > matter for complaint. This shows my nature is of> Happiness. I complain> > when > > > I am sorrowful. In this sense the true nature of I> being Atman/Brahman,> > does> > > the Atmakaraka represents the force within the> misapprehended small self> > to > > > discover its natural state? If this be the case,> then, the role of> > > Atmakaraka would be very different from when, we> consider that we have> > to> > > overcome eight bondages, etc. It would not seek to > destroy the bondages> > but> > > instead seek to question its own interpretations of> life so far.> > >> > > Saying which, I am met with a serious limitation. I > haven't studied many> >> > > horoscopes based on what is perceived as Jaimini> system. I was seeking> > to> > > understand Atmakaraka and other chara karakas in this > light.> > >> > > Moreover, if how do different grahas as atmakarakas> would help in> > seeking> > > and knowing the Truth? What would be their modus> operandi? What > > situations> > > in life would govern them?> > >> > > Would Sun use direct knowledge, Moon seek the same by> turning the mind> > > inward and by springing forth nurturing attitude > towards all, Mars use> > the> > > titiksha (approx meaning : ability to suffer pain> patiently), enormous> > > courage to face circumstances by standing by the> Truth, Mercury provide > > > viveka, Jupiter may give Guru's blessings and ability> to understand and> > > apply the principles deeply, Saturn to act out our> obligatory duties> > without> > > giving weightage to Ragas and Dveshas and Venus by> spirit of yagna, and> > > constancy of one's effort towards the Truth?> > >> > > This is the reason I wrote what I wrote such that > those who use> > Atmakaraka> > > everyday may let me know their experiences with the> subject. I do not> > > propose a theory, I am merely trying to understand> Atmakaraka in light > > of> > > the above.> > >> > > I have already replied about Ishta Devta to Tijana in> my earlier email.> > >> > > Thanks for being patient and for understanding my > post. Thanks to Sri> > Soul> > > too.> > >> > > Hope the above makes sense.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 9/10/07, vedicastrostudent vedicastrostudent@ ...> wrote: > > > >> > > > Dear Bharatji,> > > > Sorry for not replying earlier. I was rather> focussed on figuring> > > > out the implications/ import of Vistijis words. > > > >> > > > I understand very well your position (strongly> Advaitic) from a> > > > spiritual point of view, but I am unable to connect> it === message truncated ===____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? 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