[Fwd: Jupiter as AK (to Visti, Tijanaji, Nitish and v_reality)]

[Guest guest]

|| OM TAT SAT ||

Dear Visti,

> The Sun is not beyond the three Gunas... It is not Nir-guna. It is

> Sa-guna as it indeed exists in the sky. Among the three Guna it is

 

Nirguna doesnt' equate with non-existence but beyond Gunas.

There is no sound basis in your statement of comparison as that way

you wouldnt be able to prove Brahman to a materialist.

If Sun would be Sattvic by nature, all those workers who toil day

and night in the Sun and receive the most energy, would be most

Sattvic beings.

 

> As food mixed with poison is called poison, similarly the

> Unmanifest, which is the primordial Cause, is called egoism since it

> is imbued with the impressions resulting from egoism; and egoism is

> the impelling force (of all). It is indeed seen in the world that

> egoism is the impelling cause behind all endeavour./

 

Never mind dear, egoism is not a force at all, otherwise the most

egoistic person would become the most forceful of all. Also, egoism is

not the primordial cause of anything except sense of egoism . As far

as food mixed with poison is concerned, ofcourse you are right, but if

you mean poison mixed with food, it is called poisoned " food " only.

BTW, Unmanifest is not called egoism.

 

>Cosmic intelligence exists as long as the creation exists, that

> is why it is Hiranyagarbha. Hiranyagarbha has also been created.

> Once there is no creation, then cosmic intelligence disappears.

 

Ofcourse, cosmic intelligence disappears but dont tell me that God

would use His inherent intelligence to first create cosmic

intelligence, so it is not the created essence or Prakriti and hence

beyond Gunas. As we see that God is more intelligent than that and

cosmic intelligence disaapearing means, it is the last one to quit the

stage of creation. Thus, only God would have told you that cosmic

intelligence is the last one to disappear and the first one to appear

. Right!

The cosmic intelligence being the first, and beyond Gunas, would not

cease to exist or operate because it is Nir-Guna. Still, it is the

cause of the Gunas of Prakriti.

 

I hope you will understand that Sun is beyond three Gunas, and it

represents Buddhi in the eight-fold apara prakriti scheme. In either

case, i leave it to your discrimination.

 

regards,

nitish

 

sohamsa , Visti Larsen <visti wrote:

>

> ??? ??? ??????

>

> Dear Nitish, Namaskar

> This is my reply to your second mail. A combined response would make it

> easier for both of us.

>

> You wrote:

> /Sun is beyond the three gunas of Prakriti - as u rightly pointed out

> with reference to sattvic, rajasic, and tamasic buddhi. It exists as

> the indestructible Cosmic intelligence aspect of God in creation (TAT

> - refer chapter 15) and is one of the three beings there are, the

> destructible being (OM) and the uttermost being, Purushottama (SAT)!/

>

> Visti: I didn't point this out, you misunderstood me. I was trying to

> justify that the context within which you were interpreting Buddhi is

> not justifiable from the perspective of Guna.

> The Sun is not beyond the three Gunas... It is not Nir-guna. It is

> Sa-guna as it indeed exists in the sky. Among the three Guna it is

> Satvic by nature, but that is not a good reason for equating it with

> Buddhi, as Buddhi need not be satvic.

> There is also a concept of 'Satvic ahamkara' according to

> Shankaracharya, then where does Rahu fit in this scheme if he cannot be

> satvic?

> Instead if the scheme were to be dependent on the function of the

planet

> in causing bondage, then we can come a long way. I.e. the Moon is a

> satvic graha, but the mana of many incarnates in this world is far from

> that. Instead we must know that the Moon causes the bondage of having a

> mana, as it is through the contact with our mothers womb during

> conception that the mana begins to be aware to begin with -

Varahamihira.

>

> The ahamkara existed BEFORE the mana existed, as the ahamkara follows

> the atma itself, and actually causes it to THINK that it is a jeevatma.

> Hence, Shankaracharya in his commentary describes the ahamkara as: /By

> ahamkara, egoism, is meant the Unmanifest, associated with (Cosmic)

> ignorrance. As food mixed with poison is called poison, similarly the

> Unmanifest, which is the primordial Cause, is called egoism since it is

> imbued with the impressions resulting from egoism; and egoism is the

> impelling force (of all). It is indeed seen in the world that egoism is

> the impelling cause behind all endeavour./

> All the parenthesis' have been added by Swami Gambhirananda.

> So, based on this commentary it seems clear that the ahamkara is the

> first created from the shunya/unmanifest.

>

> Now, this is how Shankaracharya describes Buddhi: /By buddhih,

> intellect, is meant the principle called mahat* which is the source of

> egoism./

> */Mahat means Hiranyagarbha, or Cosmic Intelligence. - Gambhirananda./

>

> This is the Buddhi which I have tried to tell you about! After all, how

> can any aspect of /prakriti /carry a purely auspicious quality if

> prakriti exists only in this material abode, and NOT in the

non-material

> abode.

> Now, see that Shankaracharya states that Buddhi is the actual cause of

> the ahamkara to be created! Doesn't this sound like the veil of Rahu

> over the Atma?

>

> You wrote:

> /In truth, there is never an eclipse for Sun because the Cosmic

> intelligence is indestructible and hence never does it stop

> functioning///invisible///eclipsed during a cycle of creation./

>

> Visti: Cosmic intelligence exists as long as the creation exists, that

> is why it is Hiranyagarbha. Hiranyagarbha has also been created. Once

> there is no creation, then cosmic intelligence disappears.

>

> Looking forward to your reply.

> Yours sincerely,

>

> --

> Visti Larsen - SJC Guru

> Jaimini SJC - Denmark

> email: visti <visti

> For consultations, free mp3's and articles visit: http://srigaruda.com

> <http://srigaruda.com>

>

> yeeahoo_99 wrote:

> >

> > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > Dear Visti,

> > Hope you are fine. You dont seem to be replying to my mail. Is it

> > so badly written?

> > My only objective was to bring out the truth for all including

> > myself, but, in doing so, the strong and long held beliefs of people

> > get hurt.

> > Am happy, that while writing these mails, i learnt much more than

> > what is visible, and this learning cannot happen in isolation. The

> > reason for my joining this list is to stay in touch.

> > Somehow, i always felt that people dont respond to the

> > mails/queries i send. May be it happens with everybody.

> >

> > Just wanted to finish with this one incomplete statement from my

> > last mail:

> >

> > " Karma is the only bandhana that Gita mentions, as Sri Krishna

> > couldn't have possibly missed/ignored the rest of the bandhanas as it

> > is His Apara-Prakriti.

> >

> > Sun is beyond the three gunas of Prakriti - as u rightly pointed out

> > with reference to sattvic, rajasic, and tamasic buddhi. It exists as

> > the indestructible Cosmic intelligence aspect of God in creation (TAT

> > - refer chapter 15) and is one of the three beings there are, the

> > destructible being (OM) and the uttermost being, Purushottama (SAT)!

> >

> > For purposes of learning souls on path to self-knowledge, Sun, in

> > Jyotish, is seen as identified with Sattvic Guna destructible Prakriti

> > for the deepest reasons**, thus creating a cause for it to be eclipsed

> > by Tamo Guna of Rahu (Ahamkara causing bodily rebirth).

> >

> > In truth, there is never an eclipse for Sun because the Cosmic

> > intelligence is indestructible and hence never does it stop

> > functioning/invisible/eclipsed during a cycle of creation. An eclipse

> > of Sattva Guna of Sun can only have the deepest learning for the

> > jeevatma as the acquisition of ultimate wisdom to go beyond the Gunas

> > of destructible Prakriti. "

> >

> > ** A sharp intelligence is a blessing of God and a privilege given to

> > Human, that wise use for upliftment to Godhood, mediocre use for

> > fulfillment of their desires and ignorant use for self-destruction.

> >

> > regards,

> > nitish

> >

> > sohamsa <sohamsa%40>,

> > Visti Larsen <visti@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -------

> > > Re: Jupiter as AK (to Visti, Tijanaji, Nitish and

v_reality)

> > > Sun, 09 Sep 2007 14:41:01 -0000

> > > csna25 <csna25@>

> > > Visti Larsen <visti@>

> > >

> > >

> > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > Dear Visti,

> > > > Visti: Why does it include those who practice the sohamsa-mantra

> > > yajna?

> > > Sohamsa is the mantra of breath - initiation a soul receives from

> > > Sri Krishna to progress on the path to evolution. This is the

> > > uninterrrupted only living parampara there is.

> > >

> > > >Visti: How can I know what Krishna meant? Thats why i cited Adi

> > > >Shankaras commentary, and now you are giving your own commentary.

> > > > Should i believe in your commentary or that of Adi Shankara?

> > >

> > > Chapter 6 sloka 5:

> > > uddharedatmanatmanam natmanamavasadayet

> > > atmaiva hyatmano bandhuratmaiva ripuratmanah -5-

> > >

> > > > You are equating Buddhi with a spiritual faculty, and this is your

> > > > basis for equating Buddhi with the Sun. Your intent is clear in

> > > > this. Then why didn't you equate Buddhi with Jupiter or Ketu?

> > > > Surely Ketu is much more spiritual than Sun.

> > >

> > > In eightfold-Prakriti, Jupiter represents Akash Tattwa.

> > > Ketu is not there in the scheme of Eightfold-Apara-prakriti, as it

> > > would rather show a state after liberation from Prakriti.

> > > Rahu, being the literal/zodiacal/mathematical opposite of Ketu,

> > > has Zero-affinity towards liberation of a being (as you wrote, it

> > > causes rebirth).

> > > Sun is the only graha that performs the role of Buddhi as a

> > > spiritual faculty.

> > >

> > > > Visti: Again, just because a PURE buddhi enhances ones spiritual

> > > > efforts, it doesn't mean it is signified by the Sun.

> > >

> > > In the eight-fold scheme, Sun as PURE buddhi directs spiritual

> > > effort after Rahu has done its role of bringing the soul back to a

> > > physical body.

> > >

> > > > Again, the basis of this statement itself is doubtful, due to

which

> > > > you would have to equate Ketu with Buddhi based on your

> > > > statements. Based on what you have written how can you classify

> > > > Buddhi as a Bandhana?

> > >

> > > Karma is the only bandhana that Gita mentions.

> > >

> > > > Visti: I don't think my Jyotish Guru is wrong. Also how do you

> > > > justify that the bandhana has to be decided based on wisdom of the

> > > > graha? Since when do Moon and Rahu not make spiritual efforts?

Moon

> > > > in eighth house makes the person meditate and perform kundalini

> > > > yoga, whilst Rahu in tenth makes the person go on pilgrimages and

> > > > visit tirthas. The Sun doesn't even meditate, he just has

faith and

> > > > goes to temple. Its Ketu who causes meditation, and its in the

> > > > junction with Jupiter that he does so through a Guru, and its

> > > > junction with Venus does so indendently.

> > >

> > > Sun forms Shiva yoga with Ketu, and is exalted in constellation of

> > > Ketu. Mind doesnt make any spiritual effort but needs to be

> > > controlled (6:34).

> > >

> > > From KathaUpanishad (III.Up.I.2.3. -13 & 14.)

> > > 'The Chariot of the Body': The five horses represent the five senses

> > > (tongue, eyes, nose, ears and skin). The rein symbolises the mind,

> > > the driver is the intelligence while the passenger is the jeevatma.

> > >

> > > http://fixedreference.org/2006-Wikipedia-CD-Selection/images/46/

> > <http://fixedreference.org/2006-Wikipedia-CD-Selection/images/46/>

> > > 4642.jpg

> > >

> > > In Mahabharata war scenario, Sri Krishna as driver of Arjunas'

> > > chariot is the guiding intelligence of the jeevatma and

controller of

> > > the reins of the mind. This is the most perfect example of Guru-

> > > Shishya relationship there is!

> > >

> > > regards,

> > > Nitish

> > >

> > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40>,

> > Visti Larsen <visti@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > ??? ??? ??????

> > > >

> > > > Dear Nitish, Namaskar

> > > > Thank you for your reply.

> > > >

> > > > You wrote:

> > > > / Gita is the commentary of Parampara of Sri Krishna - Arjuna,

which

> > > > includes everybody that practices the sohamsa mantra yajna. Thus,

> > > you

> > > > can benefit by reading it as it is the only living parampara till

> > > > date.

> > > > /

> > > >

> > > > Visti: Why does it include those who practice the sohamsa-mantra

> > > yajna?

> > > >

> > > > The Gita revived the Parampara's through Adi Shankara, as he was

> > > the one

> > > > who brought it to the world, and it is one of his bhasyas. But the

> > > Gita

> > > > itself is not a parampara, but the cause of all the other

> > > paramparas to

> > > > exist. Each Shankaracharya Mutt is a Parampara in itself and

> > > continues

> > > > to preach the vedas.

> > > >

> > > > Your statement denounces the importance of these Mutts. Are you

> > > > practicing the Sohamsa mantra-yajna through Sri Sri Ravi Shankar?

> > > He was

> > > > taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and its well known that the origin

> > > of

> > > > Maharishi is the Jyotirmutt, thus making your Parampara the same.

> > > >

> > > > /You wrote:

> > > > A person who isn't fit to distinguish between what he ought or

> > > > ought not to do; do you think he is fit to practice spirituality?

> > > Sri

> > > > Krishna is not really telling arjuna to practice materiality

> > > anyways.

> > > > /

> > > >

> > > > /If you don't understand the role of buddhi from this sloka,

Gita is

> > > > full of slokas that talk about buddhi as a spiritual faculty

(Sun),

> > > > unlike Ahamkara (Rahu)./

> > > >

> > > > Visti: How can I know what Krishna meant? Thats why i cited Adi

> > > > Shankaras commentary, and now you are giving your own commentary.

> > > Should

> > > > i believe in your commentary or that of Adi Shankara?

> > > >

> > > > You are equating Buddhi with a spiritual faculty, and this is your

> > > basis

> > > > for equating Buddhi with the Sun. Your intent is clear in this.

> > > > Then why didn't you equate Buddhi with Jupiter or Ketu? Surely

Ketu

> > > is

> > > > much more spiritual than Sun.

> > > >

> > > > /Chapter 3 sloka 1:

> > > > Arjuna asks:

> > > > " If Buddhi is greater than karma, Janardana

> > > > Then why give me the order to be in this intense fight? "

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 3 sloka 42:

> > > > Sri Krishna replies:

> > > > " In the body the senses are superior

> > > > >From the senses the mind is greater

> > > > >From the mind the intellect (buddhi) is superior and

> > > > Beyond the intellect is the Atman as the witness " /

> > > >

> > > > Visti: The word used in this sloka is not 'witness' but

'superior'.

> > > Also

> > > > the word 'Atma' is not from the translation, but from

> > > Shankaracharyas

> > > > commentary. The Atma is superior to the intellect, and in this

case

> > > it

> > > > refers to Angirasa's definition of Antaratma, and is called 'the

> > > self'

> > > > according to Shankara.

> > > >

> > > > /Chapter 4 sloka 5 tells that many births of mine and yours have

> > > > passed.

> > > > Chapter 6 sloka 43:

> > > >

> > > > " Acquiring wisdom (BUDDHI-SAMYOGAM) revived from the previous body

> > > > thereafter he endeavors once again for perfection. " /

> > > >

> > > > Visti: Again, just because a PURE buddhi enhances ones spiritual

> > > > efforts, it doesn't mean it is signified by the Sun.

> > > >

> > > > /> One could just as easily justify that since the main cause of

> > > > > rebirth is Rahu, the stronger the bondage of Rahu, so also the

> > > > > stronger the bondage of Buddhi and thus the eclipse

> > > > > of the Sun/spirituality.

> > > >

> > > > Do you still have doubts that Sun refers to Buddhi? Rahu

(Ahamkara)

> > > > and Moon (manas) don't make spiritual efforts.

> > > > Rahu cannot be considered to be wise, in this context, that its

> > > > " rebirth-causing-//bondage-quality " be used to achieve perfection

> > > and

> > > > liberation in this birth. It is only good at helping a

rebirth, not

> > > > helping to liberate - thus it is not doing the function of

Buddhi by

> > > > 6:43.

> > > > /

> > > >

> > > > Visti: I don't think my Jyotish Guru is wrong. Also how do you

> > > justify

> > > > that the bandhana has to be decided based on wisdom of the graha?

> > > > Since when do Moon and Rahu not make spiritual efforts? Moon in

> > > eighth

> > > > house makes the person meditate and perform kundalini yoga, whilst

> > > Rahu

> > > > in tenth makes the person go on pilgrimages and visit tirthas. The

> > > Sun

> > > > doesn't even meditate, he just has faith and goes to temple. Its

> > > Ketu

> > > > who causes meditation, and its in the junction with Jupiter

that he

> > > does

> > > > so through a Guru, and its junction with Venus does so

> > > independently.

> > > >

> > > > Again, the basis of this statement itself is doubtful, due to

which

> > > you

> > > > would have to equate Ketu with Buddhi based on your statements.

> > > Based

> > > > on what you have written how can you classify Buddhi as a

Bandhana?

> > > > Rahu is extremely useful at helping liberation... In fact i can

> > > justify

> > > > how each planet can help liberation, but thats not a fair

basis for

> > > > justifying their Bandhanas.

> > > >

> > > > /How many of the 6 billion people, all born due to Rahu-bond are

> > > > using this birth to make a spiritual effort?

> > > > /

> > > >

> > > > Visti: How about Ramakrishna Paramahamsa? How about Srila

> > > Prabhupada?

> > > > They are the causes of the largest spiritual missions in India and

> > > > abroad. I think they made great spiritual effort. They have

Rahu as

> > > > atmakaraka!

> > > >

> > > > Sun on the other hand causes problems with ahamkara in the person.

> > > > Citing Sanjay Rath:

<http://www.srath.com/lessons/advanced/ak2.htm

> > <http://www.srath.com/lessons/advanced/ak2.htm>>

> > > >

> > > > " *Planets as ätmakäraka: *1. Sun as AK indicates the native

> > > has to

> > > > learn to overcome his ego and should become humble. " refer:

> > > > http://srath.com/lessons/advanced/ak.htm

> > <http://srath.com/lessons/advanced/ak.htm>

> > > >

> > > > " Ahankära refers to its independent identity and is the false ego

> > > (*not

> > > > Freud's ego*). This is false because the identity is not permanent

> > > and

> > > > it is an ego as it helps to identify the object and differentiate

> > > it

> > > > from the other bodies/creatures of its class or family. This is

> > > > represented by the Sun in astrology. " refer:

> > > > http://www.srath.com/lessons/advanced/ak2.htm

> > <http://www.srath.com/lessons/advanced/ak2.htm>

> > > >

> > > > Visti: note the careful reference to /ego /not being equated with

> > > > Freud's understanding of Ego.

> > > >

> > > > /Chapter 7 verse 10:

> > > > " O Arjuna, try to understand me as the eternal origin of all

living

> > > > entities. I am the (BuddhirBuddhiMataA/ /smi) intelligence in the

> > > > intelligent, and the brilliance of the brilliant. "

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 10 sloka 10:

> > > > " One who is always united with Me (see 6:18) and who meditates

upon

> > > Me

> > > > with love -- I bestow him with buddhiyoga (meaning stillness) by

> > > > which, he is the one who attains Me. "

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 15 sloka 20:

> > > > (Etad Buddhva Buddhimaan syat KritaKrityascha bharata)

> > > > " Understand with your intelligence this most secret science that I

> > > > have explained to you and become wise, and thereupon be successful

> > > in

> > > > all your duties. "

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 18 sloka 30:

> > > > " One who knows engagement and withdrawal, work and work not to be

> > > > done, fear and non-fear, bondage and liberation -- this type of

> > > > (Buddhi) intellect is sattvic. "

> > > >

> > > > Rahu cannot be Sattvic!

> > > > /

> > > >

> > > > Visti: Does that mean Sun can be tamasic? How about all those who

> > > don't

> > > > have satva budhi? Are you saying they don't have a buddhi because

> > > its

> > > > not satvic? Your justification doesn't hold water.

> > > >

> > > > /Chapter 18, sloka 57:

> > > > " Dedicate all action to Me from the (chetasa)heart, extinguish

> > > > wholly, be devoted to Me, take recourse in buddhi-yoga and

keep your

> > > > consciousness always on Me. "

> > > >

> > > > 18:30, 10:10 -- there is nothing like Ahamkara Yoga, but Buddhi-

> > > > Yoga. With Sun as ParamAtma, one would have a yoga with him as

> > > Buddhi.

> > > >

> > > > Thus, if buddhi is all that important all along from 2nd to 18th

> > > > chapter, in Gita, lets understand it as a function of Surya with

> > > > Sattvic Buddhi. /

> > > >

> > > > Visti: If Satvic Budhi is the Sun, then is Sun also Tamasic/impure

> > > > Budhi? You are only dealing with the highest aspect of Buddhi in

> > > these

> > > > slokas, and not speaking of Buddhi as a bandhana.

> > > >

> > > > Since our entire discussion revolves around Sun, Moon and Rahu

> > > which are

> > > > the causes of the eclipse, i will quote a translation of

> > > Dakshinamurti

> > > > Stotra:

> > > >

> > > > rähugrastadiväkarendusadåço mäyäsamäcchädanät sanmätraù

> > > > karaëopasaàharaëato yo'bhütsuñuptaù pumän |

> > > >

> > > > prägasväpsamiti prabodhasamaye yaù pratyabhijïäyate tasmai

> > > > çrégurumürtaye nama idaà çrédakñiëämürtaye || 6||

> > > >

> > > > The Sun (atma) is eclipsed when the Moon (Mana) conjoins it

and the

> > > Moon

> > > > is in the latitude as the orbital plane of the earth where the

> > > > intersection points are the nodes (Rahu & Ketu). It is this Rahu

> > > that is

> > > > said to cause the eclipse. Simiarly, the Rahu of our lives is our

> > > own

> > > > desires and sice Rahu is a node of the Moon (mana), the

desires are

> > > the

> > > > creation of the mind. It is the coming together or conjunction of

> > > the

> > > > atma (Sun), mana (Moon) and desires (Rahu) that causes an eclipse

> > > or

> > > > birth itself.

> > > >

> > > > Visti: The key lies in this, namely that Rahu being a node of the

> > > Moon

> > > > is the cause of desires created in the mind, and very much deals

> > > with

> > > > the mind.

> > > >

> > > > Further; ATMA means self. There are three types of atma according

> > > to

> > > > Angirasa, namely: Atma, Antaratma and Paramatma. The first is the

> > > body

> > > > itself and its senses. The second is the abode of the individual

> > > soul or

> > > > Jeevatma, and finally the Paramatma is God.

> > > >

> > > > So when Parasara and other seers stated that the Sun is the atma,

> > > they

> > > > also refer to the entire gamut of definitions of the self.

Ahamkara

> > > is a

> > > > function of 'thinking' one is the self, and is the bondage that

> > > caused

> > > > the Jeevatma to separate from the Paramatma to begin with! This is

> > > > defined in the cosmology where the ahamkara merged with the

various

> > > > Gunas to cause the bhutas, etc. to manifest.

> > > >

> > > > Looking forward to your reply.

> > > > Yours sincerely,

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Visti Larsen - SJC Guru

> > > > Jaimini SJC - Denmark

> > > > email: visti@ <visti@>

> > > > For consultations, free mp3's and articles visit: http://

> > > srigaruda.com

> > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>

> > > >

> > > > yeeahoo_99 wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > || OM TAT SAT ||

> > > > > Dear Visti,

> > > > > Gita is the commentary of Parampara of Sri Krishna - Arjuna,

which

> > > > > includes everybody that practices the sohamsa mantra yajna.

Thus,

> > > you

> > > > > can benefit by reading it as it is the only living parampara

till

> > > > > date.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Visti: I don't have this translation. Is this an inference?

> > > > > > The last two words used here are: buddhinaashaat-praNashyati =

> > > > > > destruction of buddhi causes one to be lost/dissapear/vanish/

> > > > > perish. > Did you infer that it was spirituality which perished?

> > > To

> > > > > this Adi

> > > > > > Shankara comments: /Indeed, a man continues to be himself so

> > > long

> > > > > as > his mind remains fit to distinguish between what he

ought to

> > > and

> > > > > > ought not to do./

> > > > >

> > > > > A person who isn't fit to distinguish between what he ought or

> > > > > ought not to do; do you think he is fit to practice

spirituality?

> > > Sri

> > > > > Krishna is not really telling arjuna to practice materiality

> > > anyways.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you don't understand the role of buddhi from this sloka, Gita

> > > is

> > > > > full of slokas that talk about buddhi as a spiritual faculty

> > > (Sun),

> > > > > unlike Ahamkara (Rahu).

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 3 sloka 1:

> > > > > Arjuna asks:

> > > > > " If Buddhi is greater than karma, Janardana

> > > > > Then why give me the order to be in this intense fight? "

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 3 sloka 42:

> > > > > Sri Krishna replies:

> > > > > " In the body the senses are superior

> > > > > >From the senses the mind is greater

> > > > > >From the mind the intellect (buddhi) is superior and

> > > > > Beyond the intellect is the Atman as the witness "

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 4 sloka 5 tells that many births of mine and yours have

> > > > > passed.

> > > > > Chapter 6 sloka 43:

> > > > >

> > > > > " Acquiring wisdom (BUDDHI-SAMYOGAM) revived from the

previous body

> > > > > thereafter he endeavors once again for perfection. "

> > > > >

> > > > > > One could just as easily justify that since the main cause of

> > > > > > rebirth is Rahu, the stronger the bondage of Rahu, so also the

> > > > > > stronger the bondage of Buddhi and thus the eclipse

> > > > > > of the Sun/spirituality.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you still have doubts that Sun refers to Buddhi? Rahu

> > > (Ahamkara)

> > > > > and Moon (manas) don't make spiritual efforts.

> > > > > Rahu cannot be considered to be wise, in this context, that its

> > > > > " rebirth-causing-bondage-quality " be used to achieve perfection

> > > and

> > > > > liberation in this birth. It is only good at helping a rebirth,

> > > not

> > > > > helping to liberate - thus it is not doing the function of

Buddhi

> > > by

> > > > > 6:43.

> > > > > How many of the 6 billion people, all born due to Rahu-bond are

> > > > > using this birth to make a spiritual effort?

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 7 verse 10:

> > > > > " O Arjuna, try to understand me as the eternal origin of all

> > > living

> > > > > entities. I am the (BuddhirBuddhiMataAsmi) intelligence in the

> > > > > intelligent, and the brilliance of the brilliant. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 10 sloka 10:

> > > > > " One who is always united with Me (see 6:18) and who meditates

> > > upon Me

> > > > > with love -- I bestow him with buddhiyoga (meaning stillness) by

> > > > > which, he is the one who attains Me. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 15 sloka 20:

> > > > > (Etad Buddhva Buddhimaan syat KritaKrityascha bharata)

> > > > > " Understand with your intelligence this most secret science

that I

> > > > > have explained to you and become wise, and thereupon be

> > > successful in

> > > > > all your duties. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 18 sloka 30:

> > > > > " One who knows engagement and withdrawal, work and work not

to be

> > > > > done, fear and non-fear, bondage and liberation -- this type of

> > > > > (Buddhi) intellect is sattvic. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Rahu cannot be Sattvic!

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 18, sloka 57:

> > > > > " Dedicate all action to Me from the (chetasa)heart, extinguish

> > > > > wholly, be devoted to Me, take recourse in buddhi-yoga and keep

> > > your

> > > > > consciousness always on Me. "

> > > > >

> > > > > 18:30, 10:10 -- there is nothing like Ahamkara Yoga, but Buddhi-

> > > > > Yoga. With Sun as ParamAtma, one would have a yoga with him as

> > > Buddhi.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thus, if buddhi is all that important all along from 2nd to 18th

> > > > > chapter, in Gita, lets understand it as a function of Surya with

> > > > > Sattvic Buddhi.

> > > > >

> > > > > regards,

> > > > > Nitish

> > > > >

> > > > > sohamsa

<sohamsa%40>

> > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > Visti Larsen <visti@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ??? ??? ??????

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Nitish, Namaskar

> > > > > > Thank you for your mail.

> > > > > > You mention a Parampara below. Please provide the name of the

> > > > > Parampara

> > > > > > and its commentary for our benefit so we can read more. In

> > > > > answering

> > > > > > your points, i will be using the Gita's commentary by Adi

> > > Shankara

> > > > > -

> > > > > > translated by Svami Gambhirananda.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /1.) About Buddhi:

> > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 52, 53 -->

> > > > > > " When Buddhi penetrates beyond darkness of delusion, then you

> > > shall

> > > > > > be indifferent about the matters heard and to-be-heard./

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /. "

> > > > > > " ..Buddhi becoming securely anchored in soul bliss, one

attains

> > > > > yoga. "

> > > > > > /

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /Chapter 2 sloka 62,63 -->

> > > > > > DECAY OF BUDDHI causes ANNIHILATION of spiritual life./

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Visti: I don't have this translation. Is this an

inference? The

> > > > > last two

> > > > > > words used here are: buddhinaashaat-praNashyati =

destruction of

> > > > > buddhi

> > > > > > causes one to be lost/dissapear/vanish/perish. Did you infer

> > > that

> > > > > it was

> > > > > > spirituality which perished? To this Adi Shankara comments: /

> > > > > Indeed, a

> > > > > > man continues to be himself so long as his mind remains fit to

> > > > > > distinguish between what he ought to and ought not to do./

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /NOTE:- Jyotish tells us that Sprituality is related to

Sun more

> > > > > than

> > > > > > Rahu, as seen in those with AK in kendra to Sun.

> > > > > > /

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Visti: All eight of the bandhanas once tightened cause loss of

> > > > > > spirituality, not just Buddhi. If a student has so much

ahamkara

> > > > > that he

> > > > > > believes he knows everything, then he will not read books and

> > > again

> > > > > > spirituality is destroyed. If a one is fully engrossed in his/

> > > her

> > > > > desire

> > > > > > for procreation then again the spirituality is ruined. The

> > > latter

> > > > > is

> > > > > > explained in Chapter 2, sloka 60. So all eight bandhas cause

> > > this

> > > > > > problem, and not just Buddhi.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /Chapter 2 sloka 65 -->

> > > > > > Buddhi of the blissful man soon becomes firmly established (in

> > > the

> > > > > > self).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Chapter 5 sloka 20 -->

> > > > > > " The Knower of spirit, abiding in Supreme being, with STHIRA

> > > BUDDHI,

> > > > > > free from delusion, is thus neither jubiliant at pleasant

> > > > > experiences

> > > > > > nor downcast by unpleasant experiences./ / " /

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Visti: You are very right to give Buddhi such a high pedestal

> > > among

> > > > > the

> > > > > > eight bandhas, because indeed the worst Bandha is that of

Buddhi

> > > > > just as

> > > > > > Rahu is the main karaka for all Bandhana of the soul.

Overcoming

> > > > > this,

> > > > > > all the other bandhas break easily. This is the reason Rahu is

> > > the

> > > > > main

> > > > > > cause of rebirth. This is why the Shiva purana

> > > (Satirudrasamhita)

> > > > > states

> > > > > > that the Shiva form who is able to control the bondage of Rahu

> > > is

> > > > > > Pashupati. Shiva then explains that Pashupati is

responsible for

> > > > > > breaking all wordly bondages (pashupAshanikR^intanaM).

> > > > > > According to Shiva, Ishana is the form of Shiva which controls

> > > > > Surya.

> > > > > > More below.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /2.) About AHAMKARA:

> > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 71 -->

> > > > > > " That person realizes peace who, relinquishing all desires,

> > > exists

> > > > > > without craving and is UNIDENTIFIED WITH AHAMKARA (mortal ego)

> > > and

> > > > > > its sense of mine-ness. " /

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Visti: Adi Shankara comments that this actually refers to one

> > > > > becoming

> > > > > > one with Brahman i.e. enlightenment. Among the forms of Shiva

> > > which

> > > > > > specifically give this enlightenment (sandIpayajjagatsarvam -

> > > > > enlightens

> > > > > > the entire universe), we see that the form of Ishana is talked

> > > > > about.

> > > > > > Note that the word used is /SandIpa/, and this happens to

be the

> > > > > Guru of

> > > > > > Sri Krishna (SandIpani).

> > > > > > However, this sloka from the Gita is not strictly for

ahamkara,

> > > but

> > > > > for

> > > > > > all the eight bandhas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /3.) About MANAS JOINED WITH BUDDHI:

> > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 51:

> > > > > > " Those whose minds are joined to wisdom (BUDDHI-YUKTA)/ /,

> > > having

> > > > > > abandoned action's fruit, Freed thus from bondage to rebirth,

> > > they

> > > > > > attain the state beyond sorrow. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also refer Chapter 13 slokas 1 - 11:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " ...Indifference to sense objects, And absence of egotism

> > > > > > (NIRHAMKARA)/ /;...Constant evenmindedness in Desired and

> > > undesired

> > > > > > events...With single-minded yoga,...Constant in knowledge

of the

> > > > > Self,

> > > > > > Seeing the goal of truth-knowledge--

> > > > > > This is said to be true knowledge.

> > > > > > The contrary is ignorance. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Chapter 8 sloka 9 refers

> > > > > > " He who meditates on the Seer, the Ruler, The ancient, subtler

> > > than

> > > > > > the atom, support Of all, Whose form is inconceivable and

> > > RADIANT

> > > > > > LIKE THE SUN and beyond darkness. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This proves beyond doubt and questioning the central role of

> > > > > > BUDDHI in the spiritual growth of a devotee like ARJUNA. Now,

> > > this

> > > > > > role is not played by AHAMKARA or MANAS independently.

> > > > > > Thus, Sun as dispeller of darkness is the only correct

> > > assignment of

> > > > > > the role of Buddhi.

> > > > > > /

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Visti: Your inference implies that only one of the eight

bandhas

> > > > > deal

> > > > > > with spiritual growth or its lacking. One could just as easily

> > > > > justify

> > > > > > that since the main cause of rebirth is Rahu, the stronger the

> > > > > bondage

> > > > > > of Rahu, so also the stronger the bondage of Buddhi and

thus the

> > > > > eclipse

> > > > > > of the Sun/spirituality. Thus for this reason we worship Sri

> > > > > > Dakshinamurti on the day of the eclipse to be released

from this

> > > > > > Bandhana and get enighenment. This is what the Sadhu's

practice.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Note the word Buddhi is used in three different ways in

the gita

> > > > > > according to Adi Shankara and Gambhiranandas translation, viz.

> > > i)

> > > > > buddhi

> > > > > > as a bandha, ii) samatva buddhi (pure buddhi) and iii)

buddhi as

> > > > > > enlightenment, and cannot be mixed arbitrarily.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > /Getting back to the eightfold Prakriti, Sun (Buddhi), Moon

> > > (MANAS)

> > > > > > and Rahu (Ahamkara) is the only correct version as per the

> > > > > >

> > > > > > GURU-SHISYA PARAMPARA

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > Sri Krishna-Arjuna/

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The reason why in Jyotish most associate the Sun with Ahamkara

> > > in

> > > > > > general terms, is because of the story of Vivasvan and Sanjna

> > > > > > (memory/recollection). In the story Vivasvans rays become so

> > > > > bright, and

> > > > > > he became so knowledgeable (and self absorbed) that Sanjna

left

> > > and

> > > > > only

> > > > > > left her shadow (false recollection) behind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He only could reunite with Sanjna once his father in-law

reduced

> > > > > the

> > > > > > rays of Vivasvan, and he could himself take on a form that

> > > Sanjna

> > > > > was

> > > > > > pleased with.

> > > > > > So the story of Vivasvan/Surya tells us about this nature of

> > > > > Ahamkara.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Looking forward to your reply.

> > > > > > Yours sincerely,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Visti Larsen - SJC Guru

> > > > > > Jaimini SJC - Denmark

> > > > > > email: visti@ <visti@>

> > > > > > For consultations, free mp3's and articles visit: http://

> > > > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > yeeahoo_99 wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT||

> > > > > > > Dear Visti,

> > > > > > > Lets look at what Sri Krishna tells Arjuna in Gita about

> > > Buddhi,

> > > > > > > Manas and Ahamkara.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1.) About Buddhi:

> > > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 52, 53 -->

> > > > > > > " When Buddhi penetrates beyond darkness of delusion,

then you

> > > > > shall

> > > > > > > be indifferent about the matters heard and to-be-heard.. "

> > > > > > > " ..Buddhi becoming securely anchored in soul bliss, one

> > > attains

> > > > > yoga. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 62,63 -->

> > > > > > > DECAY OF BUDDHI causes ANNIHILATION of spiritual life.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > NOTE:- Jyotish tells us that Sprituality is related to Sun

> > > more

> > > > > than

> > > > > > > Rahu, as seen in those with AK in kendra to Sun.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 65 -->

> > > > > > > Buddhi of the blissful man soon becomes firmly established

> > > (in the

> > > > > > > self).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Chapter 5 sloka 20 -->

> > > > > > > " The Knower of spirit, abiding in Supreme being, with STHIRA

> > > > > BUDDHI,

> > > > > > > free from delusion, is thus neither jubiliant at pleasant

> > > > > experiences

> > > > > > > nor downcast by unpleasant experiences. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2.) About AHAMKARA:

> > > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 71 -->

> > > > > > > " That person realizes peace who, relinquishing all desires,

> > > exists

> > > > > > > without craving and is UNIDENTIFIED WITH AHAMKARA (mortal

> > > ego) and

> > > > > > > its sense of mine-ness. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3.) About MANAS JOINED WITH BUDDHI:

> > > > > > > Chapter 2 sloka 51:

> > > > > > > " Those whose minds are joined to wisdom (BUDDHI-YUKTA),

having

> > > > > > > abandoned action's fruit, Freed thus from bondage to

rebirth,

> > > they

> > > > > > > attain the state beyond sorrow. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also refer Chapter 13 slokas 1 - 11:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " ...Indifference to sense objects, And absence of egotism

> > > > > > > (NIRHAMKARA);...Constant evenmindedness in Desired and

> > > undesired

> > > > > > > events...With single-minded yoga,...Constant in knowledge of

> > > the

> > > > > Self,

> > > > > > > Seeing the goal of truth-knowledge--

> > > > > > > This is said to be true knowledge.

> > > > > > > The contrary is ignorance. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Chapter 8 sloka 9 refers

> > > > > > > " He who meditates on the Seer, the Ruler, The ancient,

subtler

> > > > > than

> > > > > > > the atom, support Of all, Whose form is inconceivable and

> > > RADIANT

> > > > > > > LIKE THE SUN and beyond darkness. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This proves beyond doubt and questioning the central role of

> > > > > > > BUDDHI in the spiritual growth of a devotee like ARJUNA.

Now,

> > > this

> > > > > > > role is not played by AHAMKARA or MANAS independently.

> > > > > > > Thus, Sun as dispeller of darkness is the only correct

> > > assignment

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > the role of Buddhi.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Getting back to the eightfold Prakriti, Sun (Buddhi), Moon

> > > (MANAS)

> > > > > > > and Rahu (Ahamkara) is the only correct version as per the

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > GURU-SHISYA PARAMPARA

> > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > Sri Krishna-Arjuna

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > regards,

> > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > sohamsa

> > <sohamsa%40>

> > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > > > Visti Larsen <visti@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ??? ??? ??????

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Nitish, Namaskar

> > > > > > > > Thank you for this mail.

> > > > > > > > I will be answering the main points of your mail. The main

> > > > > points

> > > > > > > being

> > > > > > > > the foundation of the facts/statements you present.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > /You wrote:

> > > > > > > > So lets begin with Eightfold-Prakriti of Krishna, your

> > > reference

> > > > > > > > point itself is incorrect. Gita Chapter 7 sloka 4

states:...

> > > > > > > > /

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I cannot disagree, as i had wrongly written prakriti

> > > instead of

> > > > > > > buddhi.

> > > > > > > > Siva purana confirms this:

> > > > > > > > */Siva Purana, Vishvesvara Samhita,4/*

> > > > > > > > /Prakriti /comprises of buddhi, ahamkara, gunaatmaka and

> > > > > > > panchatanmatra.

> > > > > > > > All these combined are called Prakriti.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > /You wrote:

> > > > > > > > Neither the five tattwas, Buddhi nor Manah can be assigned

> > > to

> > > > > Rahu

> > > > > > > > and thus Ahamkara is the only thing that can logically be

> > > > > assigned

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > Rahu. So the correct version of eightfold

representation of

> > > > > Prakriti

> > > > > > > > is:...

> > > > > > > > /

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mana and Buddhi can indeed both be attributed to Rahu, as

> > > Rahu

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > known to show the desires of the mind. Here the Parampara

> > > comes

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > our

> > > > > > > > help and specifically defines Buddhi to be assigned to

Rahu,

> > > > > > > whereas

> > > > > > > > Mana and Ahamkara have been assigned to Moon and Sun

> > > > > respectively.

> > > > > > > So

> > > > > > > > why does Sun represent Ahamkara?

> > > > > > > > aham = self. kaara=causative/doer. The cause of self in

> > > other

> > > > > words.

> > > > > > > > Monier Williams translates this as:

> > > > > > > > /m. conception of one's individuality , self-consciousness

> > > > > ChUp. & c.

> > > > > > > > the making of self , thinking of self , egotism MBh. & c./

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Where Rahu caused the desire which led to rebirth, it is a

> > > given

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > the Sun is the actual creator of everything, and with that

> > > > > creation

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > ahamkaara is one of the negative effects of the same. But

> > > this

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > just

> > > > > > > > my justification the traditions teachings.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > /You wrote:

> > > > > > > > There is ONLY ONE bondage and not Eight of them. Ahamkara

> > > > > doesn't

> > > > > > > > cause bondage of atma as you have written, but Karma alone

> > > > > causes

> > > > > > > > bondage of atma, and is not a part of eightfold-prakriti

> > > > > referred

> > > > > > > > above. Refer Gita Chapter 2 verse 39 as follows:

> > > > > > > > /

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The sloka you qoute is right, but your inference... Heres

> > > what

> > > > > Siva

> > > > > > > > Purana says:/

> > > > > > > > /

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > */Siva Purana, Vishvesvara Samhita,2/*

> > > > > > > > Because of remaining in eight types of bandhana, the

soul is

> > > > > called

> > > > > > > > /Jeeva/. When a person is freed from these bondages, the

> > > person

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > called /Mukta.

> > > > > > > > /

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > /*Siva Purana, Vishvesvara Samhita,3*

> > > > > > > > /Emancipation is the control of these bondages of prakriti

> > > etc.

> > > > > One

> > > > > > > > trapped in these is called /Jeeva/, and one freed from

them

> > > is

> > > > > > > called

> > > > > > > > /Mukta./

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > */Siva Purana, Vishvesvara Samhita,4/*

> > > > > > > > /Prakriti /comprises of buddhi, ahamkara, gunaatmaka and

> > > > > > > panchatanmatra.

> > > > > > > > All these combined are called Prakriti.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > */Siva Purana, Vishvesvara Samhita,5/*

> > > > > > > > These eight bondages are the body. The activities of this

> > > body

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > called the /karmas/.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Later in sloka 8 Suta explains that due to karmas the soul

> > > is

> > > > > bound

> > > > > > > by

> > > > > > > > these eight bondages. So these are indeed the bondages and

> > > they

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > created due to Karma. The issue being that the bondages

> > > > > themselves

> > > > > > > can

> > > > > > > > lead one to recreate the same karma again and again, just

> > > as one

> > > > > > > desire

> > > > > > > > leads to a thousand more.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > /You wrote:

> > > > > > > > ParamAtma is a collective of all the atmas. Concept of

Chara

> > > > > > > > karakas is only indicative of the separate identity

> > > (Ahamkara)

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > soul in the realm of relationships - led by the AK as

a king

> > > > > leads a

> > > > > > > > kingdom. So AK has the job of understanding the realm of

> > > > > > > > relationships with other atmas and thereby help the

> > > attainment

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > individuals' understanding of ParamAtma./

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yes, once Sun atmakaraka's understand this within

> > > themselves,

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > > should teach it to others.

> > > > > > > > Looking forward to your reply.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yours sincerely,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Visti Larsen - SJC Guru

> > > > > > > > Jaimini SJC - Denmark

> > > > > > > > email: visti@ <visti@>

> > > > > > > > For consultations, free mp3's and articles visit: http://

> > > > > > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>>

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > || Om TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > > > > Dear Visti,

> > > > > > > > > Thanks for a good mail.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Surely Surya is not Ahamkara, thats like saying that

> > > Rahu is

> > > > > > > Durga.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > How are you so sure about it? The question still remains

> > > > > > > unanswered

> > > > > > > > > i.e. how do you prove that Surya represents Ahamkara?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The graha which 'represents' the bondage of

ahamkara is

> > > > > Surya.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This brings up another question: i.e. if there is a

> > > bondage of

> > > > > > > > > Ahamkara at all?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ahamkar is referred in Gita chapter 3, verse 27 as

> > > follows:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " All activities are being enacted by the senses of the

> > > > > (Prakriti)

> > > > > > > > > material nature without exception; but the unrealized,

> > > > > deluded by

> > > > > > > > > (AhamKara) false identification of being the body, thus

> > > > > thinks:

> > > > > > > " I am

> > > > > > > > > the doer "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ahamkara (surya), Manas (chandra), Prakriti (rahu),

> > > > > > > Akasha(guru),

> > > > > > > > > > Agni(mangala), Jala (shukra), Vayu (shani) and Prithvi

> > > > > (budha)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So lets begin with Eightfold-Prakriti of Krishna, your

> > > > > reference

> > > > > > > > > point itself is incorrect. Gita Chapter 7 sloka 4

states:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " Earth, water, fire, air, ether, Manah, Buddhi, and

> > > Ahamkara;

> > > > > thus

> > > > > > > > > these are the eightfold divisions of my Prakriti. "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Neither the five tattwas, Buddhi nor Manah can be

> > > assigned to

> > > > > Rahu

> > > > > > > > > and thus Ahamkara is the only thing that can

logically be

> > > > > > > assigned to

> > > > > > > > > Rahu. So the correct version of eightfold representation

> > > of

> > > > > > > Prakriti

> > > > > > > > > is:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Buddhi (surya), Manah (chandra), Ahamkara (rahu),

> > > > > Akasha(guru),

> > > > > > > > > Agni(mangala), Jala (shukra), Vayu (shani) and Prithvi

> > > (budha)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Now, to overcome these eight bondages, there are EIGHT

> > > ways

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > look

> > > > > > > > > > at God through which we can be freed. For the Ahamkara

> > > we

> > > > > must

> > > > > > > > > > look at God as Paramatman.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > There is ONLY ONE bondage and not Eight of them.

Ahamkara

> > > > > doesn't

> > > > > > > > > cause bondage of atma as you have written, but Karma

alone

> > > > > causes

> > > > > > > > > bondage of atma, and is not a part of eightfold-prakriti

> > > > > referred

> > > > > > > > > above. Refer Gita Chapter 2 verse 39 as follows:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " O Arjuna! What has been declared to you this spiritual

> > > > > > > intelligence

> > > > > > > > > (Buddhih) according to the Samkhya (the path of

> > > knowledge).

> > > > > Now

> > > > > > > > > listen to the teaching of Yoga (the path of selfless

> > > action

> > > > > > > combined

> > > > > > > > > with devotion) by practising which the bondage of

Karma is

> > > > > > > overcome. "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also, Chapter 3 verse 9 verifies that Karma causes

> > > bondage:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " O son of Kunti! In this world all actions, unless they

> > > are

> > > > > done

> > > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > > an offering to God (or as Yajna), become causes of

> > > bondage.

> > > > > > > > > Therefore, work for the sake of God without personal

> > > > > attachments. "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Chapter 3 verse 31 cross-verfies it as follows:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " Whoever follow this teaching of mine, with their minds

> > > full

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > faith

> > > > > > > > > and free from disparagement, they also are released from

> > > the

> > > > > > > bondage

> > > > > > > > > of reactions from Actions (Karma). "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That liberation is attained by knowing the correct

way of

> > > > > acting

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > given in Chapter 4 verse 16:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " What is (karma) action and what is (akarma) 'non-

> > > action', is

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > subject regarding which even the wise are perplexed. I

> > > shall

> > > > > > > > > therefore speak to you about (Karma)work, by knowing

which

> > > > > one is

> > > > > > > > > liberated from evil (or the life of bondage in Samsara) "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The reason for liberation is written as Chapter 5

verse 3:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " It should be known, O mighty-armed one! That one who

> > > neither

> > > > > > > > > disdains nor desires fruits of actions, should be known

> > > as one

> > > > > > > > > established in renunciation. Certainly, that person

being

> > > free

> > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > all dualities is easily liberated from bondage. "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > For the Ahamkara we must look at God as Paramatman.

> > > This is

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > remedy itself. And the specific form of Shiva

> > > > > > > > > > who will help us realize this is Ishana for the Sun.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Please understand that Ahamkara is not a disease that we

> > > look

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > remedies to it. It is the eightfold prakriti of Krishna.

> > > > > > > Otherwise,

> > > > > > > > > mind, buddhi, and pancha-tattwas will also need to be

> > > > > remedied.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > And among those born with Surya as atmakaraka we have

> > > > > grades of

> > > > > > > > > > those being fully engrossed in ahamkara vs. having

> > > complete

> > > > > > > control

> > > > > > > > > > of ahamkara.

> > > > > > > > > I am not sure what you mean by complete control of

> > > Ahamkara,

> > > > > > > > > because one who has complete control of his manas

and has

> > > > > buddhi

> > > > > > > > > devoted to Krishna - realizes his divine nature of

> > > > > > > " AhamBrahmaAsmi "

> > > > > > > > > and gets freed from the bondage of Karma.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Divine souls like Vivekananda, Ramakrishna

> > > > > > > > > > Paramahamsa and Sri Krishna being at one end of the

> > > scale.

> > > > > With

> > > > > > > > > > fellows like Donald Trump, Adolph Hitler (exalted

surya

> > > > > yuti AK)

> > > > > > > > > >and others at the other end of the scale.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Liberation is caused by the development of

divine/demoniac

> > > > > nature,

> > > > > > > > > Chapter 16 Verse 5:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " The divine nature is considered the cause of liberation

> > > and

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > demoniac nature the cause of bondage. Grieve not, O

son of

> > > > > Pandu!

> > > > > > > You

> > > > > > > > > are born of the divine nature. "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So please don't make the equation that everyone with

> > > Surya

> > > > > > > > > > atmakaraka is Paramatman. That would be quite

delusional

> > > > > > > indeed...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Even as paramatman is Omnipresent, it is not possible to

> > > say

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > any mortal being is apart from paramatman, whether it be

> > > > > Surya AK

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > a specific context. In any case, no such equation about

> > > > > > > > > Atmakaraka and Paramatma has been made by me.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The only question asked is about how " Surya " represents

> > > > > Ahamkara,

> > > > > > > > > devoid of any Chara Karaka Status whatsoever. You should

> > > have

> > > > > > > read my

> > > > > > > > > mail more thoroughly to have not missed the point

that was

> > > > > being

> > > > > > > made.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ParamAtma is a collective of all the atmas. Concept of

> > > Chara

> > > > > > > > > karakas is only indicative of the separate identity

> > > > > (Ahamkara) of

> > > > > > > > > soul in the realm of relationships - led by the AK as a

> > > king

> > > > > > > leads a

> > > > > > > > > kingdom. So AK has the job of understanding the realm of

> > > > > > > > > relationships with other atmas and thereby help the

> > > > > attainment of

> > > > > > > > > individuals' understanding of ParamAtma.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Finally, about the points you made:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As proved earlier, Surya as representing Buddhi of the

> > > eight-

> > > > > fold

> > > > > > > > > Prakriti of Krishna - is referred to as ParamAtma in a

> > > chart

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > > > Jyotish Texts, whatever be the Chara AtmaKaraka. That

> > > Buddhi/

> > > > > > > > > intelligence in creatures is Krishna is verified by Gita

> > > > > Chapter

> > > > > > > 10,

> > > > > > > > > sloka 22:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " Of the Vedas, I am the Sama Veda; among the Devas, I am

> > > > > Indra; of

> > > > > > > > > the senses, I am the mind; and in living beings, I am

> > > > > > > intelligence. "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > See, the devatas reside in svarga loka and this

> > > corresponds

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > nakshatras.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Jyotish tells that constellations are overlorded by

> > > luminary

> > > > > Moon

> > > > > > > > > and Moon derives its luminosity from Sun. Therefore,

as a

> > > > > > > consequence

> > > > > > > > > the concept of devatas associated with the swarga of

> > > > > > > constellations

> > > > > > > > > is derived from the luminosity of the radiant Sun

and any

> > > > > > > spiritual

> > > > > > > > > blessings obtained by worshipping devatas of Swarga loka

> > > are

> > > > > > > easily

> > > > > > > > > obtained by worshipping Sun as Paramatma.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Using that equation we could say that Aditya,

Shiva and

> > > > > Agni are

> > > > > > > > > > all Surya... Taking a line from your mail we are

> > > actually

> > > > > saying

> > > > > > > > > > that Vishnu being an aditya is Surya?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Yes. Surya as ParamAtma is only ONE and manifests as

> > > > > multitude of

> > > > > > > > > Aditya, Shiva and Agni, depending upon the concept you

> > > see him

> > > > > > > > > aligned with, i.e. signs, or nakshatra or any other

> > > divisions

> > > > > > > > > respectively.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Obviously both of us know better than that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now we do.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > regards,

> > > > > > > > > nitish

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > sohamsa

> > <sohamsa%40>

> > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > > > > > Visti Larsen <visti@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > ??? ??? ??????

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitish, Namaskar

> > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your reply.

> > > > > > > > > > Surely Surya is not Ahamkara, thats like saying that

> > > Rahu is

> > > > > > > Durga.

> > > > > > > > > > Using that equation we could say that Aditya,

Shiva and

> > > > > Agni are

> > > > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > > Surya... Taking a line from your mail we are actually

> > > saying

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > Vishnu

> > > > > > > > > > being an aditya is Surya? Obviously both of us know

> > > better

> > > > > than

> > > > > > > > > that.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > See, the devatas reside in svarga loka and this

> > > corresponds

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > nakshatras. The grahas through their transit of the

> > > > > nakshatras

> > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > actually eclipsing them and thus certain forms of

> > > devatas

> > > > > come

> > > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > > > indicating by 1) the graha eclipsing. 2) the nakshatra

> > > it

> > > > > > > eclipses.

> > > > > > > > > > Since nakshatras are the basis of the rasi chart,

we can

> > > > > find

> > > > > > > based

> > > > > > > > > on

> > > > > > > > > > the state of a graha the actual devata represented by

> > > it.

> > > > > But

> > > > > > > its

> > > > > > > > > only a

> > > > > > > > > > representation as the Grahas themselves are not

devatas.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The graha which 'represents' the bondage of

ahamkara is

> > > > > Surya,

> > > > > > > just

> > > > > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > > > the graha representing the bondage of the mind is

Moon.

> > > And

> > > > > > > among

> > > > > > > > > those

> > > > > > > > > > born with Surya as atmakaraka we have grades of those

> > > being

> > > > > > > fully

> > > > > > > > > > engrossed in ahamkara vs. having complete control of

> > > > > ahamkara.

> > > > > > > > > Divine

> > > > > > > > > > souls like Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa

and Sri

> > > > > Krishna

> > > > > > > > > being at

> > > > > > > > > > one end of the scale. With fellows like Donald Trump,

> > > Adolph

> > > > > > > Hitler

> > > > > > > > > > (exalted surya yuti AK) and others at the other end of

> > > the

> > > > > > > scale.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Now, to overcome these eight bondages, there are EIGHT

> > > ways

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > look

> > > > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > > > God through which we can be freed. For the Ahamkara we

> > > must

> > > > > > > look at

> > > > > > > > > God

> > > > > > > > > > as Paramatman. This is the remedy itself. And the

> > > specific

> > > > > form

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > Shiva

> > > > > > > > > > who will help us realize this is Ishana for the Sun.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So please don't make the equation that everyone with

> > > Surya

> > > > > > > > > atmakaraka is

> > > > > > > > > > Paramatman. That would be quite delusional indeed...

> > > Infact

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > concept

> > > > > > > > > > of Paramatma is the means to which the Surya

atmakaraka

> > > > > will be

> > > > > > > > > freed of

> > > > > > > > > > his/her ahamkara.

> > > > > > > > > > Looking forward to your reply.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Yours sincerely,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > > Visti Larsen - SJC Guru

> > > > > > > > > > Jaimini SJC - Denmark

> > > > > > > > > > email: visti@ <visti@>

> > > > > > > > > > For consultations, free mp3's and articles visit:

http:/

> > > /

> > > > > > > > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>

> > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>> <http://

> > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>>>

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > || OM TAT SAT||

> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Visti,

> > > > > > > > > > > How do you prove that Ahamkara is represented by

> > > Surya ?

> > > > > > > Either

> > > > > > > > > you

> > > > > > > > > > > mean to say that Lord Krishna represents Ahamkara

> > > going by

> > > > > > > Gita

> > > > > > > > > > > Chapter 10 verse 21:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > " Of the tweleve adityas I am vishnu, of all

> > > luminaries the

> > > > > > > radiant

> > > > > > > > > > > Sun , of the seven Maruts I am marichi, and of the

> > > > > > > constellations

> > > > > > > > > I am

> > > > > > > > > > > the Moon. "

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that Sura/Surya group of planets are

> > > lead

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > Surya

> > > > > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkara?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that the Vedas adoring Surya Narayan

> > > as a

> > > > > > > witness

> > > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > all actions (Sakshi) is an individuality creating

> > > Ahamkara

> > > > > > > > > Principle

> > > > > > > > > > > and not an impersonal transcendental intelligence

> > > > > principle?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Please explain why Surya as Ahamkara should be

> > > referred

> > > > > to as

> > > > > > > > > > > Paramatma, the soul of all and `Jagadaikha

> > > chakshusay',

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > eye

> > > > > > > > > of the

> > > > > > > > > > > three worlds?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > nitish

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa

> > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > > > > > > > Visti Larsen <visti@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > ??? ??? ??????

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear List, Namaskar

> > > > > > > > > > > > Why hasn't anyone started talking about the eight

> > > > > bondages

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > the atma?

> > > > > > > > > > > > Ahamkara (surya), Manas (chandra), Prakriti

(rahu),

> > > > > Akasha

> > > > > > > > > (guru), Agni

> > > > > > > > > > > > (mangala), Jala (shukra), Vayu (shani) and Prithvi

> > > > > (budha).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > And how these eight bondages map into the eight

> > > spokes

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > kala

> > > > > > > > > > > > chakra, which are simultaneously the eight spokes

> > > of the

> > > > > > > > > anahata chakra.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Really any talk on the atma and its EIGHT

karakas is

> > > > > futile

> > > > > > > > > without any

> > > > > > > > > > > > of this.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Yours sincerely,

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > > > > Visti Larsen - SJC Guru

> > > > > > > > > > > > Jaimini SJC - Denmark

> > > > > > > > > > > > email: visti@ <visti@>

> > > > > > > > > > > > For consultations, free mp3's and articles visit:

> > > > > > > > > > > http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>

> > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>> <http://

> > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>> <http://

> > > > > > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>>>

> > > > > > > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>

> > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>> <http://

> > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>>

> > > > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>

> > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>> <http://

> > > > > srigaruda.com

> > > > > > > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>

> > <http://srigaruda.com <http://srigaruda.com>>>>>>

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Promila Chitkara wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Sharat,

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you not think that " serving others " comes

> > > naturally

> > > > > > > only

> > > > > > > > > to a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > handful people? There maybe people who want to

> > > serve

> > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > families;

> > > > > > > > > > > > > however, that is not selfless service in the

true

> > > > > sense of

> > > > > > > > > the term.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Because we know very well that in happiness and

> > > > > > > contentment

> > > > > > > > > of our

> > > > > > > > > > > > > families lies our happiness and growth! So it's

> > > purely

> > > > > > > > > selfish.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > P

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sharat <gidoc@>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa

> > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:23:04 AM

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Re: Jupiter as AK (to

> > > Tijanaji,

> > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > v_reality)

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > ||Namah Shivaya||

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sundeep,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Good observations, I was following this

thread as

> > > > > well but

> > > > > > > > > really

> > > > > > > > > > > > > found the ' ego ' bit coming in too quickly.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > English words cant describe so well ' ahankar '

> > > and '

> > > > > > > aham'

> > > > > > > > > which are

> > > > > > > > > > > > > different and I agree that one cannot see this

> > > only in

> > > > > > > Sun AK.

> > > > > > > > > > > However

> > > > > > > > > > > > > as you say, Sun AK needs to learn to serve

others

> > > as

> > > > > it

> > > > > > > does

> > > > > > > > > not come

> > > > > > > > > > > > > naturally to them. And you cant take ' I ' away

> > > from

> > > > > them

> > > > > > > so

> > > > > > > > > easily

> > > > > > > > > > > > > but perhaps if one wants to merge with

Paramatma,

> > > then

> > > > > > > the '

> > > > > > > > > I '

> > > > > > > > > > > will

> > > > > > > > > > > > > have to merge in to ' Him '.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Best

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sharat

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > > > > > > ** vedicastrostudent

> > > <vedicastrostudent@>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > *To:* sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > <sohamsa

> > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:56 PM

> > > > > > > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: Jupiter as AK (to

> > > Tijanaji,

> > > > > > > Nitish

> > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > v_reality)

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tijanaji and Nitish,

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been reading your exchange with interest

> > > in the

> > > > > > > hope of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > learning something new, but I find myself

> > > disagreeing

> > > > > > > subtly

> > > > > > > > > > > in the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > essence of what you say. In fact, deep down

in the

> > > > > > > exchange I

> > > > > > > > > find

> > > > > > > > > > > > > this statement made by " v_reality " which makes a

> > > lot

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > sense

> > > > > > > > > > > to me:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > " Can this also be understood at a different

level

> > > as

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > effacement

> > > > > > > > > > > > > of 'self' in a spiritual sense? " .

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is my take - I have none of the scriptural

> > > > > knowledge

> > > > > > > you

> > > > > > > > > both

> > > > > > > > > > > > > have, only I have seen several Sun AK people: I

> > > dont

> > > > > > > think it

> > > > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > > > > fair to say that Sun AK people are

egotistic. See,

> > > > > English

> > > > > > > > > > > also has

> > > > > > > > > > > > > a lot of words which have subtly different

> > > meanings,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > right

> > > > > > > > > > > > > one has to be used. An egotistic person is

one who

> > > > > has a

> > > > > > > > > > > exaggerated

> > > > > > > > > > > > > sense of self-importance. Almost everyone in

this

> > > > > world

> > > > > > > has

> > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > > (and you are fooling yourself if you deny

it), it

> > > is

> > > > > plain

> > > > > > > > > > > wrong to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > observe a person have Sun AK and simultaneously

> > > > > observe

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > he also

> > > > > > > > > > > > > has an exaggerated sense of self importance and

> > > say

> > > > > " yes,

> > > > > > > > > that is

> > > > > > > > > > > > > what the Sun AK does to him " . I can cite

hundreds

> > > of

> > > > > > > people I

> > > > > > > > > know

> > > > > > > > > > > > > who are very self important and DONT have

Sun AK,

> > > and

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > only

> > > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > > may not even have a strong Sun in their chart.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally think the only statement that

can be

> > > > > observed

> > > > > > > > > > > > > repeatedly with Sun AK people is that they are

> > > > > egocentric

> > > > > > > i.e.

> > > > > > > > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > > > > > view of the world is based on the individual

> > > rather

> > > > > than

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > society. They may or may not be egotistical

(i.e.

> > > > > > > > > > > egocentricity does

> > > > > > > > > > > > > not imply self importance) - the AK simply makes

> > > them

> > > > > go

> > > > > > > > > through

> > > > > > > > > > > > > experiences in life such that their core self is

> > > > > tested.

> > > > > > > How

> > > > > > > > > they

> > > > > > > > > > > > > respond to it depends probably on lots of other

> > > > > > > astrological

> > > > > > > > > > > > > factors. The only statement I can safely make,

> > > based

> > > > > on

> > > > > > > pure

> > > > > > > > > > > > > experience, is that Sun AK people are guided to

> > > > > divinity

> > > > > > > > > through

> > > > > > > > > > > > > experiences of the self, consequently their view

> > > is

> > > > > > > > > egocentric.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I know one Sun AK woman (dont know if I can

share

> > > her

> > > > > > > data)

> > > > > > > > > > > who was

> > > > > > > > > > > > > molested (by her own professor) and denied a

> > > higher

> > > > > degree

> > > > > > > > > > > that she

> > > > > > > > > > > > > worked hard for, then get married and then

> > > divorced,

> > > > > then

> > > > > > > > > have her

> > > > > > > > > > > > > mom die of cancer in a rather painful way, then

> > > have

> > > > > her

> > > > > > > > > > > brother get

> > > > > > > > > > > > > divorced in a messy lawsuit (and then leave her

> > > too),

> > > > > then

> > > > > > > > > > > (she) get

> > > > > > > > > > > > > married again and her husband develop terminal

> > > cancer

> > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > soon

> > > > > > > > > > > > > afterward. Net result: she cant seem to find a

> > > strong

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > consistent

> > > > > > > > > > > > > support outside of herself - she has become self

> > > > > reliant

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > only

> > > > > > > > > > > > > finds consistent happiness in meditation/reiki.

> > > She is

> > > > > > > > > probably

> > > > > > > > > > > > > egotistical in some degree too, but not in any

> > > > > outstanding

> > > > > > > > > way at

> > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and probably much less than all the people

> > > around

> > > > > > > her..

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Consequently, I really dispute the fact that Sun

> > > AK

> > > > > people

> > > > > > > > > must

> > > > > > > > > > > > > learn to " reduce their ego " . That is simply a

> > > general

> > > > > > > lesson

> > > > > > > > > > > for all

> > > > > > > > > > > > > of mankind. Sun AK people's AK will guide them

> > > towards

> > > > > > > > > divinity

> > > > > > > > > > > > > through experiences that make them focus on

> > > > > themselves and

> > > > > > > > > search

> > > > > > > > > > > > > for the truth: now that's the statement I find

> > > much

> > > > > more

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > point.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sundeep

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>, nix nixen

> > > > > <nix_nixen@

> > > > > > > ..>

> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitish,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only from one simple statement of yours " It is

> > > not

> > > > > > > always

> > > > > > > > > > > > > possible for me... " i read that your AK must be

> > > > > nothing

> > > > > > > less

> > > > > > > > > than

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun. Am i right? If yes, then i think i`m on the

> > > right

> > > > > > > way of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > finding answers on my queries.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tijana

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > yeeahoo_99 <nitish.arya@ ...> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tijana,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raja Yoga is the yoga of soul with paramatma -

> > > deep/

> > > > > > > shallow,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > material/spiritual - all kind of things have a

> > > basis

> > > > > > > only in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > paramatma. Thus, even Raja-bhanga yoga has a

> > > basis

> > > > > i.e.

> > > > > > > > > > > separation

> > > > > > > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > soul from paramatma (which is illusory only

> > > though)

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > hence

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > material/spiritual loss depending on the

kind of

> > > > > karma

> > > > > > > > > involved.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the lord of a sign, a planet rules a 12th

> > > part

> > > > > of the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > consciousness, relatively . Thus, in

part, it

> > > > > becomes

> > > > > > > its

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > responsibility to guide the affairs of that

> > > sign/

> > > > > house

> > > > > > > > > towards

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fulfillment. You may explore it further.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not always possible for me to answer to

> > > your

> > > > > > > specific

> > > > > > > > > > > > > queries.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully, in time, you will discover the

truth

> > > of

> > > > > your

> > > > > > > > > queries.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nitish

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > " tijanadamjanovic "

> > > > > > > > > > > <nix_nixen@>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitish,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, all must serve. The questions raised in

> > > these

> > > > > > > > > discussions

> > > > > > > > > > > > > on Atma

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > karakas were on the specific way of serving.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we say that Sun AK must learn

principles of

> > > > > artha

> > > > > > > > > > > shastra to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > serve,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the same stands for Ma and Ju AK? How to

> > > > > > > differentiate? I

> > > > > > > > > > > assume

> > > > > > > > > > > > > you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are taking karakatvas of the houses into

> > > account

> > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > > (2nd, 6th,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 10th)?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Sun/Raja gets service on the throne, but

> > > > > regarding

> > > > > > > > > > > > > spirituality

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and Atma this is related to real Raja yoga

> > > whose

> > > > > > > deepest

> > > > > > > > > > > meaning

> > > > > > > > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > inseparable from 10th house of indriyas

(refer

> > > > > > > > > Vivekananda) .

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Only in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that sense we can talk of Janaka or the

> > > perfect

> > > > > King.

> > > > > > > What

> > > > > > > > > > > artha

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shastra principles you had in mind?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tijana

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > > > > > " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@ >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || Om TAT SAT ||

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tijana,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To fulfill ones own dharma is what you

> > > > > probably

> > > > > > > had in

> > > > > > > > > > > mind

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioning Gita in this context.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Context that was intended is Gita Chapter

> > > > > 3,sloka

> > > > > > > 22.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All must work if the lord of the

cosmos has

> > > > > chosen

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > work.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is nothing specific that only SUN AK

> > > has

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > " serve " , all

> > > > > > > > > > > > > AKs

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " serve " .

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, are you implying that Sun AK

gives a

> > > > > person

> > > > > > > akin

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Janaka?!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Sun AK gives a person akin to

Janaka -

> > > > > > > jivanmukta -

> > > > > > > > > > > > > provided

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enough effort has been put in.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you determing dharma based on this?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Sun AK need not be 9th lord.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will you advise Sun AK people to take

> > > > > > > Dhartharastra

> > > > > > > > > as an

> > > > > > > > > > > > > example!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The attitude of service is seen from 6th

> > > house.

> > > > > Leo

> > > > > > > > > being a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > dharma

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > trikona sign fulfills its purpose of

service

> > > > > through

> > > > > > > > > 10th

> > > > > > > > > > > > > house of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Artha, which is 6th from it. So a Sun AK

> > > should

> > > > > > > learn

> > > > > > > > > > > > > principles of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > artha shastra to serve.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, again, what Raja will hardly ever do

> > > is

> > > > > > > serving.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All souls have to " Serve " only as there is

> > > > > nothing

> > > > > > > else

> > > > > > > > > > > to be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > done

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the three worlds because Krishna has

> > > already

> > > > > > > achieved

> > > > > > > > > > > > > everything

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is there to achieve in the three

> > > > > worlds(refer

> > > > > > > > > Gita).

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do not serve, are reborn to learn to

serve,

> > > > > > > whatever be

> > > > > > > > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > > > > > AK.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekananda` s Dharm bhava

lord was

> > > Sun

> > > > > AK

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > > lagna in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dhanus

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (extraordinary combination for unselfish

> > > > > giving by

> > > > > > > > > > > itself).

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do you think it`s a coincidence that

> > > His

> > > > > > > Master

> > > > > > > > > had

> > > > > > > > > > > > > exalted

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saturn in 9th

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bhava and Rahu AK? What do you

think, why

> > > even

> > > > > > > Swami

> > > > > > > > > > > needed

> > > > > > > > > > > > > these?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is not re-born after exhausting his

> > > karma/

> > > > > > > desires.

> > > > > > > > > Thus,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vivekananda (Rahu PiK) came here to

exhaust

> > > his

> > > > > > > > > remaining

> > > > > > > > > > > > > karma/

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > desires with Ramakrishna (Rahu AK). There

> > > is no

> > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > > substance

> > > > > > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this than a past-life karmic

relationship of

> > > > > the two

> > > > > > > > > which

> > > > > > > > > > > > > continued

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in this birth also.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NITISH

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > " tijana " <nix_nixen@>

> > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nitish,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your elaboration would be even more

> > > brilliant

> > > > > if

> > > > > > > you

> > > > > > > > > had

> > > > > > > > > > > > > just answer

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my question.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To fulfill ones own dharma is what you

> > > > > probably

> > > > > > > had in

> > > > > > > > > > > mind

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioning

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gita in this context. But, are you

> > > implying

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > Sun

> > > > > > > > > AK

> > > > > > > > > > > > > gives a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > person akin to Janaka?! Are you

determing

> > > > > dharma

> > > > > > > > > based on

> > > > > > > > > > > > > this? Will

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you advise Sun AK people to take

> > > > > Dhartharastra as

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > > > > example!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, again, what Raja will hardly ever do

> > > is

> > > > > > > serving.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami Vivekananda` s Dharm bhava

lord was

> > > Sun

> > > > > AK

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > > lagna in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dhanus

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (extraordinary combination for unselfish

> > > > > giving by

> > > > > > > > > > > itself).

> > > > > > > > > > > > > But do

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > think it`s a coincidence that His Master

> > > had

> > > > > > > exalted

> > > > > > > > > > > Saturn

> > > > > > > > > > > > > in 9th

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bhava and Rahu AK? What do you

think, why

> > > even

> > > > > > > Swami

> > > > > > > > > > > needed

> > > > > > > > > > > > > these?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tijana

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > > > > > " yeeahoo_99 " <nitish.arya@ >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || Om Tat Sat ||

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tijana,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the thing that Raja will

> > > hardly

> > > > > ever

> > > > > > > do?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read up Gita, arthashastra and ancient

> > > texts

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > show

> > > > > > > > > > > > > what

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raja has to do to ensure that his

> > > subjects

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > protected

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > progress

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on the upward evolutionary path.

Look at

> > > > > > > krishna,

> > > > > > > > > Janaka

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ChandraGupta Maurya and you will

> > > understand

> > > > > > > whatever

> > > > > > > > > > > > > that " hardly

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ever do " equates to.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise, going by your statement, AK

> > > > > wouldn't

> > > > > > > do

> > > > > > > > > > > > > anything

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > being

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the king of the horoscope and the rest

> > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > karakas (BK,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > PiK,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Puk,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GK) i.e. his subjects will follow the

> > > suit!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, the mantra is " Shiva jnane

> > > Jiva

> > > > > > > > > Seva " (serving

> > > > > > > > > > > > > every

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > being as the full manifestation of

God)

> > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > Narendranath

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > received

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from his Master Ramakrishna who

had Sun

> > > in

> > > > > > > Aquarius.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Being Sun AK, Vivekananda had

developed

> > > > > peculiar

> > > > > > > > > > > sharpness

> > > > > > > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > perception and assimilation that

> > > empowered

> > > > > him

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > > > unusual power

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pick up 'the gems' from the talks

of his

> > > > > Master.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Sun in Sagittarius, he could, as

> > > > > compared

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > others,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easily

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'see' the deep meaning in the words of

> > > Sri

> > > > > > > > > Ramakrishna,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > even

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > though

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Master told them in simple

language

> > > (Aq

> > > > > > > Sun),

> > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > never as

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > preaching.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With its dispositor Jupiter in Libra,

> > > > > gradually

> > > > > > > > > Swami

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vivekananda

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > started assimilating tips and hints on

> > > > > practical

> > > > > > > > > Vedanta

> > > > > > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > could

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > benefit individual and collective life

> > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > society.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ...For spiritual persons Sun as AK

> > > > > should be

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Jupiter`s

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > signs

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Shiva jnane...), otherwise it`s

very

> > > hard

> > > > > > > > > task... "

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Putting up statements like you have

> > > done is

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > > wise. Sri

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yukteswar

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giri, has Sun AK placed in Aries

and had

> > > > > > > attained

> > > > > > > > > > > highest

> > > > > > > > > > > > > level

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spirituality. Even if Sun AK is placed

> > > in

> > > > > > > Libra, it

> > > > > > > > > > > could

> > > > > > > > > > > > > be the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spiritual person.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AK shows the spiritual power of a sign

> > > over

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > rest of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > signs/

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > planets in the chart and this

spiritual

> > > > > power

> > > > > > > > > manifests

> > > > > > > > > > > > > through

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dispositor of AK and its sign

placement.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NITISH

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>,

> > > > > " tijana " <nix_nixen@>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Su,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun is the Self. Its qualities are

> > > those

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > Raja

> > > > > > > > > > > (karaka

> > > > > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first house, lord of the 5th, dig

> > > bala in

> > > > > > > 10th).

> > > > > > > > > > > What is

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thing

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that Raja will hardly ever do? The

> > > lesson

> > > > > > > that has

> > > > > > > > > > > to be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > learnt

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > by

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun AK is serving, in the highest

> > > sence it

> > > > > > > gives

> > > > > > > > > > > " Shiva

> > > > > > > > > > > > > jnane

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shiva

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seva " (service of man as God)-the

> > > divine

> > > > > > > lesson

> > > > > > > > > > > given to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > us by

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vivekananda (Sun AK). For spiritual

> > > > > persons

> > > > > > > Sun

> > > > > > > > > as AK

> > > > > > > > > > > > > should be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jupiter`s signs (Shiva jnane...),

> > > > > otherwise

> > > > > > > it`s

> > > > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > > > hard task.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warm regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tijana

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>, " v

> > > > > > > reality " <reality_v@>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bojan-ji

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your reply. Much

> > > > > appreciated.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I may ask another query re Sun

> > > AK.

> > > > > The

> > > > > > > lesson

> > > > > > > > > > > to be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > learnt

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun AK,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the reduction of ego. Can this

> > > also

> > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > understood

> > > > > > > > > > > > > at a

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > different level

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as the effacement of 'self' in a

> > > > > spiritual

> > > > > > > > > sense?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Su

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Bojan Vidakovic <janbovid@>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >sohamsa@

..com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > <sohamsa%40>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: Jupiter as

> > > AK

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:33:22 -

> > > 0700

> > > > > (PDT)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >HARE RAMA KRISHNA

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Su

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I would add that with Gu AK

person

> > > > > have to

> > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > > > humble to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spiritual

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >techers and natives, like

priests,

> > > > > gurus,

> > > > > > > > > teachers.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > With Ma

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AK

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > person must

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >practise Ahumsa (nonviolence) ,

> > > with

> > > > > Ch the

> > > > > > > > > > > native is

> > > > > > > > > > > > > always

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > caring,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >and gives emotions but the

problem

> > > is

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > they

> > > > > > > > > > > never

> > > > > > > > > > > > > get

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enough

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >themselves from other people. The

> > > > > person

> > > > > > > must

> > > > > > > > > learn

> > > > > > > > > > > > > lessons

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >people represented with AK. Ch /

> > > > > mother,

> > > > > > > Sy /

> > > > > > > > > > > father

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything those

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >grahas represent.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Take few examples of people you

> > > know

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > see

> > > > > > > > > it in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > praxix.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wishes,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Bojan

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hari Om Tat Sat

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ >

> > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Su,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Person should use a lot of glass

> > > and

> > > > > sing/

> > > > > > > hum

> > > > > > > > > > > > > melodies.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rafal Gendarz

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email: rafal@

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > v reality napisaÅ,(a): Dear

> > > Rafalji/

> > > > > > > Members

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is an interesting

discussion.

> > > > > Could

> > > > > > > we

> > > > > > > > > > > discuss

> > > > > > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AKs

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too. I read

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in an article that natives with

> > > Moon

> > > > > as AK

> > > > > > > > > need to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > learn

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >caring

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and loving to others. But I know

> > > of a

> > > > > > > chart

> > > > > > > > > where

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > native

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >by

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nature very caring, loving and

> > > > > concerned

> > > > > > > about

> > > > > > > > > > > > > others

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > since

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > young. So

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >what

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the lesson to be learnt?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Su

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Rafal Gendarz

<starsuponme@

> > > > > wp.pl>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >sohamsa@

> > > .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >sohamsa@ .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: Jupiter

> > > as AK

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:24:14

> > > +0200

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya*

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear LN Kumar,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >With Ju AK person should

learn to

> > > > > respect

> > > > > > > > > others

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > knowledge

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >tradition,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >should be ready to learn from

> > > others.

> > > > > > > When Ju

> > > > > > > > > > > is in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kendra to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AK or is

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >AK

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >himself then native thinks that

> > > he

> > > > > knows

> > > > > > > > > > > everything

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can share

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >His knowledge with everybody.

> > > Good

> > > > > > > teachers

> > > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > > > course

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comes

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >AK-Jupiter- Natives, as this

> > > graha

> > > > > will

> > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > naturally in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Karakamsa.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >With MA AK person should

learn to

> > > > > > > catalyze

> > > > > > > > > > > energies

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > through

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ZEN, TAI-CHI

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >other techniques, while with JU

> > > AK

> > > > > person

> > > > > > > > > should

> > > > > > > > > > > > > learn to

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more humble

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >regarding knowledge. Of course

> > > person

> > > > > > > can be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > focused on

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jupiter-

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > karakas

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >like kids, spirituality, law,

> > > luck

> > > > > etc.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mahadasa of AK brings lesson to

> > > us

> > > > > so its

> > > > > > > > > not so

> > > > > > > > > > > > > easy

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > materially but

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >inspiring spiritually, so if

> > > Surya

> > > > > is in

> > > > > > > good

> > > > > > > > > > > > > placement

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AK

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then it

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >can

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >be not so bad as person is

> > > spiritual.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Rafal Gendarz

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sri Jagannath Center Guru

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >narender kumar napisa?(a):

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Dear Gurujans,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Kindly throw some light on

> > > Jupiter

> > > > > as

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Atmakaraka and having

Jupiter as

> > > > > > > mahadasha.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Respectful Regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>LN Kumar

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>__________ __ _________

> > > _________

> > > > > > > _________

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _________

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________ _

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Take the Internet to Go:

> > > Go

> > > > > puts

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Internet in

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pocket:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >mail,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>news, photos & more.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>http://mobile.

> > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>

> > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>

> > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>>>

> > > > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>> <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>

> > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>>>

> > > > > > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>> <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>

> > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>

> > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>>>>>> /

> > > > > > > > > > > > > go?refer= 1GNXIC

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >><http://mobile. <http://

> > > mobile./

> > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>

> > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>>>

> > > > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>> <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>

> > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>>>

> > > > > > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>> <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>

> > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./>>

> > > > > > > <http://mobile./ <http://mobile./> <http://mobile./

> > <http://mobile./>>>>>> /

> > > > > > > > > > > > > go?refer= 1GNXIC>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________

> > > > > _________

> > > > > > > > > > > _________

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Advertisement: It's simple! Sell

> > > your

> > > > > car

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > just

> > > > > > > > > > > > > $30 at

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CarPoint.com.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >au

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://a.ninemsn. <http://

> > > a.ninemsn./

> > > > > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>>

> > > > > > > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>

<http://a.ninemsn./

> > <http://a.ninemsn./>>>

> > > > > > > > > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>

> > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>> <http://

> > > a.ninemsn./

> > > > > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>>>>

> > > > > > > > > > > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>

> > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>>

> > > > > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./> <http://a.ninemsn./

> > <http://a.ninemsn./>>> <http://

> > > > > a.ninemsn./

> > > > > > > <http://a.ninemsn./ <http://a.ninemsn./>

<http://a.ninemsn./

> > <http://a.ninemsn./>>>>>> com.au/b.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > aspx?URL= http%3A%2F%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2Fsecure%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >2Dau%2Eimrworldw ide%2Ecom%

> > > > > 2Fcgi%2Dbin%

> > > > > > > > > 2Fa%2Fci%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5F450304%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2Fet%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5F2%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >2Fcg%5F801459% 2Fpi%5F1004813%

> > > > > > > 2Fai%5F859641 &

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _t=762955845 &

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _r=tig_AUG07 &

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_m=EXT

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Best wishes,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SJC Guru Bojan Vidakovic

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for articles and consultations

> > > visit

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.jataveda s.com

> > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/> <http://www.jatavedas.com/

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > > >

> > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>>

> > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>>>>

> > > > > > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>>

> > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>>>

> > > > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>>

> > > > > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>

> > <http://www.jatavedas.com/ <http://www.jatavedas.com/>>>>>>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----------- ---------

--------- ---

> > > -

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Choose the right car based on

your

> > > > > needs.

> > > > > > > > > Check out

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Autos

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > new Car

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Finder tool.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________

> > > > > _________

> > > > > > > > > > > _________ _

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Advertisement: Make shopping

> > > exciting.

> > > > > Find

> > > > > > > > > what you

> > > > > > > > > > > > > want at

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.eBay.com. au

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://a.ninemsn. com.au/ <http://

> > > > > > > > > a.ninemsn.com.au/

> > > > > > > > > > > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/

<http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>

> > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/ <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>>

> > > > > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/ <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>

> > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/ <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>>>

> > > > > > > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/ <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>

> > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/ <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>>

> > > > > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/ <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>

> > <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/ <http://a.ninemsn.com.au/>>>>>>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > b.aspx?URL=http% 3A%2F%2Frover%

> > > > > 2Eebay%2Ecom%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2Frover%2F1% 2F705%2D10129%

> > > 2D5668%2D323%

> > > > > > > > > 2F4%2F%3Fid%

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3D6 & _t=763807330 & _r=email_

taglines_

> > > > > > > EBAY & _m=EXT

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the

> > > Internet

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > your

> > > > > > > > > > > > > pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

---------------------

> > > ----

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel

> > > answers

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://>

> > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://>>

> > > > > answers./

> > > > > > >

<http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>

> > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>>>

> > > > > > > dir/

> > > > > > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://>

> > > answers./

> > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>>

> > > > > dir/

> > > > > > >

<http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>

> > > dir/

> > > > >

<http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./dir/

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./dir/>

> > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

> >

_ylc=X3oDMTI5MGx2aThyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAzNTIEX3MDMzk2NTQ1MTAzBHNlYwNCQUJwaWxsYXJfTkl\

fMzYwBHNsawNQcm9kdWN0X3F1ZXN0aW9uX3BhZ2U-?link=list & sid=396545469

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://>

> > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://>>

> > > > > answers./

> > > > > > >

<http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>

> > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>>>

> > > > > > > dir/

> > > > > > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://>

> > > answers./

> > > > > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>>

> > > > > dir/

> > > > > > >

<http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./>

> > > dir/

> > > > >

<http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./dir/

> > <http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http://answers./dir/>

> > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

> >

_ylc=X3oDMTI5MGx2aThyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAzNTIEX3MDMzk2NTQ1MTAzBHNlYwNCQUJwaWxsYXJfTkl\

fMzYwBHNsawNQcm9kdWN0X3F1ZXN0aW9uX3BhZ2U-?link=list & sid=396545469>>from

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > someone who knows.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Answers - Check it out.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>