Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Dear shree Sheetal ji,Very good and fully narrative explanation you have given about birth of a child.Your last conclusive sentence "difference of few minutes due to human error" is the main problem for a KP astrologer to depend on natal chart. This resulted in evolving many RBT theories and heated discussions on those systems, creticisms and counter creticisms etc etc.Thanks and regds,Naidu KPK. P. Naidu,Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta,VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.--- On Mon, 21/12/09, TW <tw853 wrote:TW <tw853 Re: What is the correct birth time?To: Date: Monday, 21 December, 2009, 4:52 PM Dear Sheetal ji, Thank you for the detailed informative explanation. Thanks and regards, TW @gro ups.com, Sheetal <ratnamalag@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Adith ji > > I am just making u aware of the medical part and controversies about the > time of birth. > > The first breath of the child usually coincide with 1st cry of baby which in > turn coincide with the physiological closure of blood vessels in umbilical > cord making baby independent from mother biologically. Though actual > anatomical closure of umbillical cord & vessels may take few hours to few > days later. Even though if the cord is not clamped ( anatomical separation) > after delivery of baby, usually and normally blood vessels contracts and > blood flow stops( mother stops maintaining the baby) . As soon as the baby > takes the first breath, Oxygen enters the lungs of baby with force and it > opens up the lungs alveoli, which brings about so many immediate chemical/ > gaseous changes within seconds, in foetal circulation. This constrict the > umbilical blood vessels automatically The forceful entry of air into hollow > pipe of air passage produce a sound like cry. First cry may not produce > strong sound but subsequent gushing of air brings about the successive cry > sequence. > > > During delivery, as soon as the baby's head is out of the entroitus, it is a > routine practice to clean the baby's nose and mouth so that secretion should > not be aspirated by the baby and that time only baby take the first breath. > Many factors are responsible for stimulation of respiration eg skin contact > with external stimulate, external air/atmosphere, touch etc. The entry of > air through the respiratory passage produce first mild sound, many times > followed by successive vigorous sounds which we call as CRY. During C.S. as > soon as the baby's head is taken out of incision, there is a practice of > cleaning the nose and mouth immediately for the same reason which coincide > with the first breath/ cry and no body wait till whole body come out in > normal or CS delivery( to avoid aspirations of the secretions on face.) > There is usually no need of patting on back and all routinely. In medical > practice, in past severing of the cord was noted as time of birth but now > the first breath is noted as time of birth. But there are also difference of > opinion about this. But correct time of birth is more important for > astrologers so we have to think which time we should note as birth time. > > In breech delivery, breech and body of the baby is delivered first and > baby's head comes later and in that case time noted is after delivery of the > head only.If the head delivery is delayed due to any reason( impaction), > then external stimuli stimulate the respiration while the head is inside the > pelvis and baby may die due to aspiration of fluid with respiration before > delivery of head. Here we should think what should be taken as exact time of > birth? > > Sometimes baby doesn't breath even after complete delivery of the body and > we have to resuscitate the baby to start respiration, so which time should > we not here as birth time?We note here as soon as complete body is delivered > whether child is alive or not.( as birth has happened) > > Mostly mistake is due to wrong time in watches in hospital but now a days > due to belief in astrology by the pts and doctors, watches with correct time > are used especially in private hospital. Commonly watch is hanged on the > wall of labour room so that attending doctor is in habit of seeing the watch > while cleaning the nostrils and lips of baby. But still there can be > difference of few mts due to human error. > > Regards > Dr Sheetal > > On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 6:14 PM, adith kasinath.g.k < > gkadithkasinath@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear sirs, > > > > Death is the last breath and Birth is the first Breath. > > First breath happens when? May Dr. Luther or Dr. Sheetal can throw some > > light on this. > > > > If it is only when the baby cries, some times, the baby does not cry > > immediately even after the separation from the mother. > > Sometimes the baby cries even before the separation. > > > > Or can we take as the time when the chord is cut and the link is > > disconnected? > > > > This is one question. > > > > Another is the time difference between the clock of the operation theratre > > or the doctors or the husband accompanying his wife and also the difference > > between the said time and the Indian standard time. > > Hence there are lot of chances for errors to happen. > > > > Regards > > Adith > > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ ...>wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Dear Punit, > >> The entire discussion which seems to have developed into > >> an argument,sadly, arose on : " Whether the correct TOB is the > >> Time of the First breath of a newborn..." > >> The commonsense answer to this simple question is when it > >> begins to breathe,and live on its own(we normally say a person is dead when > >> he ceases to breathe,he ceases to live),but several people began to give/add > >> several different parameters to consider the Correct TOB...which you,in my > >> opinion,in the name of "research" (needlessly) encouraged.. .and poor Mr.VGR > >> Pavan submitted a protocol/suggestion ,to which you agreed immediately, in my > >> considered opinion,in too much of a hurry...*That started the discussion > >> in full swing,one thing leading to another... and that has brought us to > >> this stage now...Isn't it ?* > >> * This was,to put the record straight...* > >> * *Yogesh Lajmi. > >> * GOOD LUCK !* > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- > >> ** Punit Pandey <punitp > >> *To:* @gro ups.com > >> *Sent:* Fri, 18 December, 2009 10:25:14 AM > >> > >> *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time? > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear Lajmi ji, > >> > >> See my response to you to your another post - http://groups. / > >> group/k_p_ system/message/ 30095<http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30095>. > >> I pointed out connection between RP and Varahamihira' s Nashta Jatakam in > >> year 2003 (http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 254<http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 254>) > >> in this forum itself. *Now tell me, who is ignorant*? > >> > >> Please read my mail and you will find that I didn't say that method > >> suggested by you is not practicable. It is said by Suresh ji that other > >> methods were not practicable and hence I wanted to understand why so. I > >> think Suresh ji is better person to answer your question of practicable as > >> these are his thoughts. > >> > >> I would request you to stop such baseless talks and focus on the subject. > >> I do not have any "angst" against anybody. I kept repeating - for me, all KP > >> authors are same and I believe in verification. Whether it is Great > >> Varahamihira or Sage Parahshar or Shri KSK or Shri KSK's soon, I don't > >> follow anybody blindly and it is what Shri KSK has taught us. Your attempt > >> to make people follow KSK's sons blindly is simply against Shri KSK's > >> teachings. You can not and you should not force other people to believe what > >> you believe. You are not a PR agency or publicity agency for a person or a > >> publication and you should not behave like that. We are not here to sell > >> products or promote something, but for KP study, research and development > >> and we should focus on that. > >> > >> I would not have even approved your emails as those are unnecessarily > >> disturbing nature. We are doing one important BTR methods verification > >> process and your emails are diverting attention from the core subject. Your > >> emails are approved just because I myself was the target of your attack and > >> I thought I must answer all your questions in the forum so that everyone > >> knows about it. But we will all agree that it is sheer waste of our time and > >> forum's time. > >> > >> Thanks & Regards, > >> > >> Punit Pandey > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ <yogeshlaj mi > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear Punit, > >>> Exactly which method suggested by me *is not > >>> practicable, according to you...* > >>> * *I have already,a few minutes ago,written to you > >>> exposing your ignorance about what Varaha Mihira has exactly said about "how > >>> to erect Birth Chart of unknown TOB..." > >>> Without being harsh,I must point out that the sooner you > >>> realise that there is a *whole lot more* to Astrology,both *Traditional > >>> as well as K.P System.,* than you think you know... the better it will > >>> be for ALL of US....! > >>> With best wishes, > >>> Yogesh Lajmi. > >>> GOOD LUCK ! > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- > >>> ** Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com <punitp > > >>> *To:* @gro ups.com <@gro ups.com> > >>> > >>> *Sent:* Thu, 17 December, 2009 10:56:49 AM > >>> *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear Suresh ji, > >>> > >>> Your thinking seems contradictory to what Shri KSK has taught us and that > >>> is the reason I had written earlier email. KP is not about blind following, > >>> Shri KSK rejected many methods of sages just because those didn't work > >>> 'consistently' .. Instead of blind following, we should verify what works > >>> well and accept. If something doesn't work, we should discard it. > >>> > >>> Let me ask some questions to you based on what you have written. Which > >>> method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable? Why other methods are not > >>> practicable and logical? Who verified those methods? Why we should follow > >>> only one "stalwart" and reject all learned KP astrologers? Please see the > >>> file section and you will find that the most promoted method by Lajmi ji > >>> (Asc-Moon connection) is rejected by a study. We should not close our eyes > >>> and blindly follow anything, it is what I think. > >>> > >>> Thanks & Regards, > >>> > >>> Punit Pandey > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:45 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@ <hattangad i_suresh@ ...> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dear Punitji, > >>>> Your comment that there are several methods available will confuse KP > >>>> followers more..In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is > >>>> practicable as well as logical.Suggesting further research in this matter is > >>>> like re-inventing the wheel.When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular > >>>> method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and > >>>> insist further research on the subject is surprising.Our effort should be > >>>> instead on finding out if this particular method suggested and advocated by > >>>> Lajmiji does give correct results and research if any should be on this > >>>> line. > >>>> Suresh Hattangadi > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- > >>> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now<http://au.rd. / movies/mailtagli ne/*http: //au.movies. ./ session-times/> > >>> . > >>> > >>> > >> > >> ------------ --------- --------- > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now<http://au.rd. / movies/mailtagli ne/*http: //au.movies. / session-times/> > >> . > >> > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Dear Suprash ji,Those events happened about some years back and I could not note the time as I was not little nervous as my wife struggling with the pain. At that time , it was not possible to concentrate on these things. But I could notice the sequences as I mentioned. RegardsAdith On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh wrote: Dear Adith ji Have you recorded the first cry times? If so, it can be a good data for Pavan. Regards Suprakash - adith kasinath.g.k Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:59 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Dr. Sheetal, I agree with your statement.When I was accompanying my wife at her delivery in the labour (as being a Vet., basically) room, I noticed my last baby gave his first cry as soon as the doctor takes out and just held in her palms. The chord was not cut.My 2nd baby was just reacting to the wiping up by the doctor but no sound was audible. But the mouth was open and trying to cry. Hence once the baby comes out when the outside cosmic rays reacts to the baby's body, the stimulation starts.RegardsAdith On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Sheetal <ratnamalag wrote: Dear Adith ji I have fergotten to write one imp point that there is not much difference between the first breath and complete delivery of bady. Usually whole body delivers within a mt time after the first breath in both normal as well as CS delivery. Wrong birth time is becos of wrong notification so we have to correct/varify it. Regards Dr Sheetal On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Sheetal <ratnamalag wrote: Dear Adith ji I am just making u aware of the medical part and controversies about the time of birth. The first breath of the child usually coincide with 1st cry of baby which in turn coincide with the physiological closure of blood vessels in umbilical cord making baby independent from mother biologically. Though actual anatomical closure of umbillical cord & vessels may take few hours to few days later. Even though if the cord is not clamped ( anatomical separation) after delivery of baby, usually and normally blood vessels contracts and blood flow stops( mother stops maintaining the baby) . As soon as the baby takes the first breath, Oxygen enters the lungs of baby with force and it opens up the lungs alveoli, which brings about so many immediate chemical/ gaseous changes within seconds, in foetal circulation. This constrict the umbilical blood vessels automatically The forceful entry of air into hollow pipe of air passage produce a sound like cry. First cry may not produce strong sound but subsequent gushing of air brings about the successive cry sequence. During delivery, as soon as the baby's head is out of the entroitus, it is a routine practice to clean the baby's nose and mouth so that secretion should not be aspirated by the baby and that time only baby take the first breath. Many factors are responsible for stimulation of respiration eg skin contact with external stimulate, external air/atmosphere, touch etc. The entry of air through the respiratory passage produce first mild sound, many times followed by successive vigorous sounds which we call as CRY. During C.S. as soon as the baby's head is taken out of incision, there is a practice of cleaning the nose and mouth immediately for the same reason which coincide with the first breath/ cry and no body wait till whole body come out in normal or CS delivery( to avoid aspirations of the secretions on face.) There is usually no need of patting on back and all routinely. In medical practice, in past severing of the cord was noted as time of birth but now the first breath is noted as time of birth. But there are also difference of opinion about this. But correct time of birth is more important for astrologers so we have to think which time we should note as birth time. In breech delivery, breech and body of the baby is delivered first and baby's head comes later and in that case time noted is after delivery of the head only.If the head delivery is delayed due to any reason( impaction), then external stimuli stimulate the respiration while the head is inside the pelvis and baby may die due to aspiration of fluid with respiration before delivery of head. Here we should think what should be taken as exact time of birth? Sometimes baby doesn't breath even after complete delivery of the body and we have to resuscitate the baby to start respiration, so which time should we not here as birth time?We note here as soon as complete body is delivered whether child is alive or not.( as birth has happened) Mostly mistake is due to wrong time in watches in hospital but now a days due to belief in astrology by the pts and doctors, watches with correct time are used especially in private hospital. Commonly watch is hanged on the wall of labour room so that attending doctor is in habit of seeing the watch while cleaning the nostrils and lips of baby. But still there can be difference of few mts due to human error. Regards Dr Sheetal On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 6:14 PM, adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath wrote: Dear sirs,Death is the last breath and Birth is the first Breath.First breath happens when? May Dr. Luther or Dr. Sheetal can throw some light on this.If it is only when the baby cries, some times, the baby does not cry immediately even after the separation from the mother.Sometimes the baby cries even before the separation.Or can we take as the time when the chord is cut and the link is disconnected?This is one question.Another is the time difference between the clock of the operation theratre or the doctors or the husband accompanying his wife and also the difference between the said time and the Indian standard time. Hence there are lot of chances for errors to happen.RegardsAdith On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi wrote: Dear Punit, The entire discussion which seems to have developed into an argument,sadly, arose on : " Whether the correct TOB is the Time of the First breath of a newborn... " The commonsense answer to this simple question is when it begins to breathe,and live on its own(we normally say a person is dead when he ceases to breathe,he ceases to live),but several people began to give/add several different parameters to consider the Correct TOB...which you,in my opinion,in the name of " research " (needlessly) encouraged...and poor Mr.VGR Pavan submitted a protocol/suggestion,to which you agreed immediately,in my considered opinion,in too much of a hurry...That started the discussion in full swing,one thing leading to another... and that has brought us to this stage now...Isn't it ? This was,to put the record straight... Yogesh Lajmi. GOOD LUCK ! Punit Pandey <punitp Fri, 18 December, 2009 10:25:14 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi ji, See my response to you to your another post - http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30095. I pointed out connection between RP and Varahamihira's Nashta Jatakam in year 2003 (http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 254) in this forum itself. Now tell me, who is ignorant? Please read my mail and you will find that I didn't say that method suggested by you is not practicable. It is said by Suresh ji that other methods were not practicable and hence I wanted to understand why so. I think Suresh ji is better person to answer your question of practicable as these are his thoughts. I would request you to stop such baseless talks and focus on the subject. I do not have any " angst " against anybody. I kept repeating - for me, all KP authors are same and I believe in verification. Whether it is Great Varahamihira or Sage Parahshar or Shri KSK or Shri KSK's soon, I don't follow anybody blindly and it is what Shri KSK has taught us. Your attempt to make people follow KSK's sons blindly is simply against Shri KSK's teachings. You can not and you should not force other people to believe what you believe. You are not a PR agency or publicity agency for a person or a publication and you should not behave like that. We are not here to sell products or promote something, but for KP study, research and development and we should focus on that. I would not have even approved your emails as those are unnecessarily disturbing nature. We are doing one important BTR methods verification process and your emails are diverting attention from the core subject. Your emails are approved just because I myself was the target of your attack and I thought I must answer all your questions in the forum so that everyone knows about it. But we will all agree that it is sheer waste of our time and forum's time. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Dear Punit, Exactly which method suggested by me is not practicable, according to you... I have already,a few minutes ago,written to you exposing your ignorance about what Varaha Mihira has exactly said about " how to erect Birth Chart of unknown TOB... " Without being harsh,I must point out that the sooner you realise that there is a whole lot more to Astrology,both Traditional as well as K.P System., than you think you know... the better it will be for ALL of US....! With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi. GOOD LUCK ! Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>@gro ups.com Thu, 17 December, 2009 10:56:49 AMRe: What is the correct birth time? Dear Suresh ji, Your thinking seems contradictory to what Shri KSK has taught us and that is the reason I had written earlier email. KP is not about blind following, Shri KSK rejected many methods of sages just because those didn't work 'consistently'.. Instead of blind following, we should verify what works well and accept. If something doesn't work, we should discard it. Let me ask some questions to you based on what you have written. Which method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable? Why other methods are not practicable and logical? Who verified those methods? Why we should follow only one " stalwart " and reject all learned KP astrologers? Please see the file section and you will find that the most promoted method by Lajmi ji (Asc-Moon connection) is rejected by a study. We should not close our eyes and blindly follow anything, it is what I think. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:45 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh@ > wrote: Dear Punitji,Your comment that there are several methods available will confuse KP followers more..In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical.Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel.When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising.Our effort should be instead on finding out if this particular method suggested and advocated by Lajmiji does give correct results and research if any should be on this line.Suresh Hattangadi See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Dear Sheetal, Pray may I know the Obstetric Text Book you are quoting this from,or, is it your personal experience,or belief ? A still Birth does not mean the child has died after Birth....many a time death occurs while the baby is in the womb itself...Isn't it ? The number of babies who begin breathing "feebly" or "imperceptibly" in my personal iponion will surely be miniscule... Kindly correct me... In the vast majority of cases the cry is loud and clear...to enable one to note the exact Time...! Yogesh Lajmi. Sheetal <ratnamalag Sent: Mon, 21 December, 2009 1:51:07 PMRe: What is the correct birth time? Dear sir Though 1st breath always coincide with cry of baby, 1st cry may be very feeble to notice sound. Cry is a sound produced by forceful gush of air through hollow respiratry pipe during breathing of child. 1st breath may not be sometimes so strong to produce loud sound but sigh is always there which is important to note birth time. Sometimes dead baby may be borned which will not cry at all or If breathing is not started in a live baby for 3-4 mt, there is always a brain death and child will die. If child was alive for 2days means child was breathing ( has taken 1st breath after birth) and signs of life were there and so further management in incubator was possible Here birth time to be taken is immidiately after removal of baby from the incision regardless of clamping the cord. This baby must have a feeble resp. at birth due to prematurity and so was managed in incubator with Oxygen .. Regards Dr Sheetal On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 10:36 PM, K. P. Naidu <konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: Dear friends,Recorded Birth time, Reported time, rectified birth time etc., are various terms in use in astrology. But I am repeatedly telling "EXACT/CORRECT/ TRUE BIRTH TIME" is known only to God. Let us admit that we, the humans, have our own limitations.Regarding first breath/first cry concept of Birth Time, I posted, some time back in this forum,(sorry I have no record date of this msg), with no response from any member, my own case i.e., my grand daughter wasprematuredly removed by caeserian operation and was immediately put under oxygen, kept in incubation for two days. what is her 1st breath (since no cry) ? She could not take breath on her own for two days (under oxygen in incubation). Now which definition of Birth time suits in this case ?What we know is a speck in the ocean of astrology science. Every one learns and practices, adopts some theories/methods based on his convictions, developes some skills attains some percentage of success in his predictions. Hiding this fact, people unnecessarily blaming or creticising others is not a healthy practice. No one is perfect to be franc. "I am OK, you are not OK" is the most commonly found weakness in our society. We should try to adopt "I am OK, you are OK" principle which will avoid all these problems.Thanks & Regards, Naidu KP K. P. Naidu,Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta,VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.Phone Resi: 0891-2712591. --- On Sun, 20/12/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comSunday, 20 December, 2009, 3:46 PM Dear Lajmi ji, I have repeated it many times and now saying it the last time. We are working with the assumption that the recorded time, if not exact, is close enough to the actual time, whatever way we define that actual time. The method that hits consistently close to the recorded time gives good indication of accuracy of the method. Allow us to conduct this exercise first and then you can raise questions. The current behavior of discouraging studies and diverting attention is not conductive for learning and not accepted. Though, as mentioned in another email, if you have a better suggestion for birth time verification (not rectification) , I am more than willing to listen it. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Dear Mr.Naidu, Isn't there a difference between "clinical death and physical death" ? Similarly, is there a difference between "clinically alive" and "physically alive"...? Does K.P., define these ? Or Traditional Astrology differentiate these ? Or any other System of Astrology define them ? These questions do not seem to have been addressed by anybody,including Punit.... Can any one throw some light on this issue...let us be clear on this issue,before we proceed to redefine "Correct TOB"... Will Punit like to enlighten us all, on this subject... ? I hope we get some revealing/enlighten ing replies,in order to be very clear...on subjects like Births and Deaths... With a lot of hope and expectations. .. Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! K. P. Naidu <konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in> @gro ups.com Thu, 17 December, 2009 11:57:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Members,various methods of RBT are discussed by KP followers in this forum. How to verify the so called exact birth time as arrived by any of these RBT, is not discussed much. How to prove the exactness/truth of such a Birth Time ? Is it the actual time of 1st breath of the child - God only knows..A Birth Time which satisfies all the life events of the native, as per KP rules, I think, can be taken as correct Birth Time, whether such a Birth time satisfy the rules/equation of any RBT or not. Further, predictions made on such a Birth Time, as per KP rules, if come true and successful, such a Birth Time can be accepted as correct/exact Birth Time.Naidu KP K. P. Naidu,Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta,VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.--- On Thu, 17/12/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.com Thursday, 17 December, 2009, 10:56 AM Dear Suresh ji, Your thinking seems contradictory to what Shri KSK has taught us and that is the reason I had written earlier email. KP is not about blind following, Shri KSK rejected many methods of sages just because those didn't work 'consistently' . Instead of blind following, we should verify what works well and accept. If something doesn't work, we should discard it. Let me ask some questions to you based on what you have written. Which method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable? Why other methods are not practicable and logical? Who verified those methods? Why we should follow only one "stalwart" and reject all learned KP astrologers? Please see the file section and you will find that the most promoted method by Lajmi ji (Asc-Moon connection) is rejected by a study. We should not close our eyes and blindly follow anything, it is what I think. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:45 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh@ > wrote: Dear Punitji,Your comment that there are several methods available will confuse KP followers more.In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical.Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel.When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising.Our effort should be instead on finding out if this particular method suggested and advocated by Lajmiji does give correct results and research if any should be on this line.Suresh Hattangadi The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. 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Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Dear Lajmi, I am not the inventor of K.P. This is well known to everyone. Prof KSK himself failed many times in the beginning and he improved it later stage. This I have mentioned already to the members. (Refer Message ID 29094) /message/29094 I am talking with full sense and with clear mind. There is no need of great science to disprove the RULE. I am sorry to say that any person having Brain & little commonsense!! Can understand (refer the URL given below) will accept it. /message/28959 /message/29217 /message/29225 You can tell to some innocents simply by shifting birth time in the order of 30min to 40min etc and saying (justifying) them that you have not taken first breath, not cried, etc..etc.. !! GOOD LUCK!!! D.Senthil--- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmiRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Cc: "Senthil" <athi_ramMonday, December 21, 2009, 11:31 PM Dear Senthil, You seem to consider yourself to be better than the inventor of K.P., himself...our revered Guruji Jyotish Marthand K.S.Krishnamurthiji himself... ! Your naked demonstration mehalomania,is a classic example of what "little knowledge" can wrought on an unworthy but over-ambitious person...no further comments are necessary...proving the famous saying little knowledge is dangerous...especially,the haughtiness it breeds...and by the way...you have "disproved" nothing... of any consequence...! ! I feel sad for you....and shall pray for you... All students of K.P., wish you the very best... With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi. GOOD LUCK ! Senthil <athi_ram Sent: Tue, 22 December, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D..Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study.. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. See what's on at the movies in your area.. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Dear Anurodh, Please participate the RBT exercise given by VGR applying the RULE mentioned by you let us see the results. GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Anurodh Kumar <kanurodh wrote: Anurodh Kumar <kanurodhRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 11:14 PM Dear All, Though I am not following this thread, but going through the mail of Adith ji, would like to add something. Please try to varify the ruling planets of the near relatives like, children, father etc from the lord-star lord-sub lord concern houses. This theory is of Mr. khullar (I just read the glimpse of it). It is a good way to cross-check the rectification. I have rectified the natal chart of my family by using this cross-checking principle. with regards, Anurodh On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:07 AM, adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail.com> wrote: Dear Friends,A True real KP Astrologer may not even need the time period (9.03 to 9.08 am). He can find the actual time without that.!But who knows which is correct.Now the discussion was to ascertain the BRT with the so called actual birth time. Both may or may not be true.As Senthil ji said, RPs of the most of the astrologers during BTR were almost matching and only the interpretation by the astrologers did vary. So so many options.So planets help and we to work hard to find the truth which is very tough.Because, for a known answers in a quiz, we all could not give the right answers many times and hardly few hit the bulls eye. because it needs lot of excercise even for a good real KP astrologer.So you can not just imagine that the time rectified must be correct always for an unknown truth.It needs lot of research in all aspects scientifically and astrologically.For a grown up man, once BRT is done with the help of RPs and other procedures , it can be verified with his past events which is also sometimes difficult as many choices will match to the event.RegardsAdith On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> wrote: Dear friends. Lets not waste time in such discussions which does not nehove for a good KP Astrologer. The Birth time is exactly when the support system from mother is removed and the child begins to live on its own. This can only happen when the child begins to breathe on its own. This does not necessarily imply that the child will cry with its first breath. So the actual time of Birth is when the forces and magnetism, vibrationary waves of the Cosmic rays of the 9 Planets get infused in the body of the child, which can only happen with the first breath and not necessarily with the cutting of the chord or the first cry which may not always co-incide with the first breath. This is commonsense. Now the question is whatever may be the right time of Birth , I mean whatever may be the parameters, how is it possible to determine the right time of Birth for Horoscope Calculation and study purposes ? I am giving below the Birth particulars of my own Grand daughter who was born recently. We have two times for Time of Birth. one was when my wife heard the first cry from the labour room and another which the Nurse inside the room, said was the correct time . Do You think I would believe the Nurse ? No. Do you think I would believe my wife ? No. Do You think I would believe their watches as right ? No. Today I had to give the Pundit, the Birth particulars so that he could make the Birth Chart manually in the way its normally made (Sans Computer). Please tell me what time do You think i gave the Pundit ? And why ? I myself went for the rectification and RP's were taken for the time 19 Dec 2009 Saturday' 18.51.10 Jaipur. I have been given two times for my grand daughter as her time of Birth. One from my wife, and other by the Nurse . Date of Birth - 9th November 2009, Place - Jaipur Recorded Times - 9.03am and 9.08 am. Now what time do you think I decided to give the Pundit after reckoning with the RP's at time of judgement ? And once you decide this, then what does it matter whether this is the time of the first breath or the the first cry or the time when the chord was cut ?????? Does this matter if You are really a true KP Astrologer ? Why do you need such inputs ? Why cant you do the rectification yourself ? Now please answer me, what birth of time do you think I asked the Punditji to make the Horoscope for, and Why ? And once you decide the Actual Birth time, what do you think happened at your "arrived at Birth time ". Did the baby cry first ? Did she breathe first ? Or was the chord cut at your arrived Birth of time. If You cannot answer the second part, do not bother, for this does not bother me. I should be able to rectify the "assumed Birth time" is what should bother me as an KP Astrologer. Other theories should not take my time or efforts or energies. I am only concerned with the right Time of Birth whatever its parameters may be. regards/Bhaskar. @gro ups.com, "adith kasinath.g.k" <gkadithkasinath@ ...> wrote:>> Dear sirs,> > Death is the last breath and Birth is the first Breath.> First breath happens when? May Dr. Luther or Dr. Sheetal can throw some> light on this.> > If it is only when the baby cries, some times, the baby does not cry> immediately even after the separation from the mother.> Sometimes the baby cries even before the separation.> > Or can we take as the time when the chord is cut and the link is> disconnected?> > This is one question.> > Another is the time difference between the clock of the operation theratre> or the doctors or the husband accompanying his wife and also the difference> between the said time and the Indian standard time.> Hence there are lot of chances for errors to happen.> > Regards> Adith > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Yogesh Lajmi yogeshlajmi@ ... wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit,> > The entire discussion which seems to have developed into> > an argument,sadly, arose on : " Whether the correct TOB is the> > Time of the First breath of a newborn..."> > The commonsense answer to this simple question is when it> > begins to breathe,and live on its own(we normally say a person is dead when> > he ceases to breathe,he ceases to live),but several people began to give/add> > several different parameters to consider the Correct TOB...which you,in my> > opinion,in the name of "research" (needlessly) encouraged.. .and poor Mr.VGR> > Pavan submitted a protocol/suggestion ,to which you agreed immediately, in my> > considered opinion,in too much of a hurry...*That started the discussion> > in full swing,one thing leading to another... and that has brought us to> > this stage now...Isn't it ?*> > * This was,to put the record straight...*> > * *Yogesh Lajmi.> > * GOOD LUCK !*> >> > ------------ --------- ---------> > ** Punit Pandey punitp > *To:* @gro ups.com > > *Sent:* Fri, 18 December, 2009 10:25:14 AM> >> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Lajmi ji,> >> > See my response to you to your another post - http://groups. /> > group/k_p_ system/message/ 30095<http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30095>. > > I pointed out connection between RP and Varahamihira's Nashta Jatakam in> > year 2003 (http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 254<http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 254>) > > in this forum itself. *Now tell me, who is ignorant*?> >> > Please read my mail and you will find that I didn't say that method> > suggested by you is not practicable. It is said by Suresh ji that other> > methods were not practicable and hence I wanted to understand why so. I> > think Suresh ji is better person to answer your question of practicable as> > these are his thoughts.> >> > I would request you to stop such baseless talks and focus on the subject. I> > do not have any "angst" against anybody. I kept repeating - for me, all KP> > authors are same and I believe in verification. Whether it is Great> > Varahamihira or Sage Parahshar or Shri KSK or Shri KSK's soon, I don't> > follow anybody blindly and it is what Shri KSK has taught us. Your attempt> > to make people follow KSK's sons blindly is simply against Shri KSK's> > teachings. You can not and you should not force other people to believe what> > you believe. You are not a PR agency or publicity agency for a person or a> > publication and you should not behave like that. We are not here to sell> > products or promote something, but for KP study, research and development> > and we should focus on that.> >> > I would not have even approved your emails as those are unnecessarily> > disturbing nature. We are doing one important BTR methods verification> > process and your emails are diverting attention from the core subject. Your> > emails are approved just because I myself was the target of your attack and> > I thought I must answer all your questions in the forum so that everyone> > knows about it. But we will all agree that it is sheer waste of our time and> > forum's time.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ yogeshlajm i > > > wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punit,> >> Exactly which method suggested by me *is not practicable, according to you...> >> *> >> * *I have already,a few minutes ago,written to you> >> exposing your ignorance about what Varaha Mihira has exactly said about "how> >> to erect Birth Chart of unknown TOB..."> >> Without being harsh,I must point out that the sooner you> >> realise that there is a *whole lot more* to Astrology,both *Traditional> >> as well as K.P System.,* than you think you know... the better it will be> >> for ALL of US....!> >> With best wishes,> >> Yogesh Lajmi.> >> GOOD LUCK !> >>> >>> >> ------------ --------- ---------> >> ** Punit Pandey punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com punitp> >> *To:* @gro ups.com @gro ups.com> >>> >> *Sent:* Thu, 17 December, 2009 10:56:49 AM > >> *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >>> >>> >>> >> Dear Suresh ji,> >>> >> Your thinking seems contradictory to what Shri KSK has taught us and that> >> is the reason I had written earlier email. KP is not about blind following,> >> Shri KSK rejected many methods of sages just because those didn't work> >> 'consistently'.. Instead of blind following, we should verify what works> >> well and accept. If something doesn't work, we should discard it.> >>> >> Let me ask some questions to you based on what you have written. Which> >> method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable? Why other methods are not> >> practicable and logical? Who verified those methods? Why we should follow> >> only one "stalwart" and reject all learned KP astrologers? Please see the> >> file section and you will find that the most promoted method by Lajmi ji> >> (Asc-Moon connection) is rejected by a study. We should not close our eyes> >> and blindly follow anything, it is what I think.> >>> >> Thanks & Regards,> >>> >> Punit Pandey> >>> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:45 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh@ hattangadi _suresh@. .. > >> > wrote:> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> Dear Punitji,> >>> Your comment that there are several methods available will confuse KP> >>> followers more..In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is> >>> practicable as well as logical.Suggesting further research in this matter is> >>> like re-inventing the wheel.When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular> >>> method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and> >>> insist further research on the subject is surprising.Our effort should be> >>> instead on finding out if this particular method suggested and advocated by> >>> Lajmiji does give correct results and research if any should be on this> >>> line.> >>> Suresh Hattangadi> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ------------ --------- --------- > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now<http://au.rd. / movies/mailtagli ne/*http: //au.movies. ./ session-times/>> >> .> >>> >>> >> > ------------ --------- ---------> > See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now<http://au.rd. / movies/mailtagli ne/*http: //au.movies. / session-times/>> > .> > > >> -- Anurodh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Dear Sir U can go through any basic obstetric text book like Ian Donald, Williams, Datta, C.S.Dawn and so many. U will find this in all the text books. These are the practical,established facts and also my experience for 30+ yrs, in my medical college service, also in my own private nursing home, & foreign services and not my beliefs only. Still birth can be (1) intrauterine (baby dies in uterus ie macerated stillborn) or (2) intranatal ( during labour ie fresh stillborn) after start of labour pains. Here child shows all signs of life during 1st and 2nd stage of labour but due to asphyxia/ hypoxia due to any reason, child may aspirate in the passage and child fails to take breath at birth. This I wrote in response to Mr K P Naidu's mail where he wrote that child didn't cry at birth and was sent to incubator for 2days......etc Child didn't cry but he has definitely taken the first breath that's why he was alive and kept in the incubator. We note the birth time for all babies whether it is healthy, large, miniscule,or sick etc. Even we have to note birth time for fresh and macerated still born baby as it has taken birth, for medico legal reason though it has no astrological importance. Also I want to mention here that even healthy babies sometime don't cry loudly with first breath and just take sigh or look like yawning. (it is my personal experience) We make them cry by tickling or tapping on the planter aspect of the feet. We are not concerned here about the cry, it should be loud and clear to enable us to note the time but we are more concerned about the first breath when birth time is to be noted. RegardsDr Sheetal On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi wrote: Dear Sheetal, Pray may I know the Obstetric Text Book you are quoting this from,or, is it your personal experience,or belief ? A still Birth does not mean the child has died after Birth....many a time death occurs while the baby is in the womb itself...Isn't it ? The number of babies who begin breathing " feebly " or " imperceptibly " in my personal iponion will surely be miniscule... Kindly correct me... In the vast majority of cases the cry is loud and clear...to enable one to note the exact Time...! Yogesh Lajmi. Sheetal <ratnamalag Sent: Mon, 21 December, 2009 1:51:07 PM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear sir Though 1st breath always coincide with cry of baby, 1st cry may be very feeble to notice sound. Cry is a sound produced by forceful gush of air through hollow respiratry pipe during breathing of child. 1st breath may not be sometimes so strong to produce loud sound but sigh is always there which is important to note birth time. Sometimes dead baby may be borned which will not cry at all or If breathing is not started in a live baby for 3-4 mt, there is always a brain death and child will die. If child was alive for 2days means child was breathing ( has taken 1st breath after birth) and signs of life were there and so further management in incubator was possible Here birth time to be taken is immidiately after removal of baby from the incision regardless of clamping the cord. This baby must have a feeble resp. at birth due to prematurity and so was managed in incubator with Oxygen .. Regards Dr Sheetal On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 10:36 PM, K. P. Naidu <konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: Dear friends,Recorded Birth time, Reported time, rectified birth time etc., are various terms in use in astrology. But I am repeatedly telling " EXACT/CORRECT/ TRUE BIRTH TIME " is known only to God. Let us admit that we, the humans, have our own limitations. Regarding first breath/first cry concept of Birth Time, I posted, some time back in this forum,(sorry I have no record date of this msg), with no response from any member, my own case i.e., my grand daughter wasprematuredly removed by caeserian operation and was immediately put under oxygen, kept in incubation for two days. what is her 1st breath (since no cry) ? She could not take breath on her own for two days (under oxygen in incubation). Now which definition of Birth time suits in this case ? What we know is a speck in the ocean of astrology science. Every one learns and practices, adopts some theories/methods based on his convictions, developes some skills attains some percentage of success in his predictions. Hiding this fact, people unnecessarily blaming or creticising others is not a healthy practice. No one is perfect to be franc. " I am OK, you are not OK " is the most commonly found weakness in our society. We should try to adopt " I am OK, you are OK " principle which will avoid all these problems. Thanks & Regards, Naidu KP K. P. Naidu,Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta,VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.Phone Resi: 0891-2712591. --- On Sun, 20/12/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.com Sunday, 20 December, 2009, 3:46 PM Dear Lajmi ji, I have repeated it many times and now saying it the last time. We are working with the assumption that the recorded time, if not exact, is close enough to the actual time, whatever way we define that actual time. The method that hits consistently close to the recorded time gives good indication of accuracy of the method. Allow us to conduct this exercise first and then you can raise questions. The current behavior of discouraging studies and diverting attention is not conductive for learning and not accepted. Though, as mentioned in another email, if you have a better suggestion for birth time verification (not rectification) , I am more than willing to listen it. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Dear Mr.Naidu, Isn't there a difference between " clinical death and physical death " ? Similarly, is there a difference between " clinically alive " and " physically alive " ...? Does K.P., define these ? Or Traditional Astrology differentiate these ? Or any other System of Astrology define them ? These questions do not seem to have been addressed by anybody,including Punit.... Can any one throw some light on this issue...let us be clear on this issue,before we proceed to redefine " Correct TOB " ... Will Punit like to enlighten us all, on this subject... ? I hope we get some revealing/enlighten ing replies,in order to be very clear...on subjects like Births and Deaths... With a lot of hope and expectations. .. Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! K. P. Naidu <konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in> @gro ups.com Thu, 17 December, 2009 11:57:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Members,various methods of RBT are discussed by KP followers in this forum. How to verify the so called exact birth time as arrived by any of these RBT, is not discussed much. How to prove the exactness/truth of such a Birth Time ? Is it the actual time of 1st breath of the child - God only knows.. A Birth Time which satisfies all the life events of the native, as per KP rules, I think, can be taken as correct Birth Time, whether such a Birth time satisfy the rules/equation of any RBT or not. Further, predictions made on such a Birth Time, as per KP rules, if come true and successful, such a Birth Time can be accepted as correct/exact Birth Time. Naidu KP K. P. Naidu,Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta,VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.--- On Thu, 17/12/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.com Thursday, 17 December, 2009, 10:56 AM Dear Suresh ji, Your thinking seems contradictory to what Shri KSK has taught us and that is the reason I had written earlier email. KP is not about blind following, Shri KSK rejected many methods of sages just because those didn't work 'consistently' . Instead of blind following, we should verify what works well and accept. If something doesn't work, we should discard it. Let me ask some questions to you based on what you have written. Which method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable? Why other methods are not practicable and logical? Who verified those methods? Why we should follow only one " stalwart " and reject all learned KP astrologers? Please see the file section and you will find that the most promoted method by Lajmi ji (Asc-Moon connection) is rejected by a study. We should not close our eyes and blindly follow anything, it is what I think. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:45 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh@ > wrote: Dear Punitji,Your comment that there are several methods available will confuse KP followers more.In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical.Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel.When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising.Our effort should be instead on finding out if this particular method suggested and advocated by Lajmiji does give correct results and research if any should be on this line. Suresh Hattangadi The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. 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Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File sect) Explanation of the Test Results , Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra wrote: > > D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star &  Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su // > Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. > With thanks & regards, > Dhirendra Nath Misra >  > > > > > ________________________________ > Senthil <athi_ram > > Tue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AM > Re: Re: What is the correct birth time? > >  > Dear Lajmi, > > I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. > > I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC &  WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. > > Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star &  Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). >  > GOOD LUCK! > > D.Senthil > > > --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: > > > >Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > > >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time? > >@gro ups.com > >Cc: " tw853 " <tw853 > > >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM > > > > > > > >Dear TW, > >              Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... > >               In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be  recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! > >              We are discussing K.P.,not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! > >               And for your information,our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, > >and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... > >              After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... > >               Let us await his observations. .. > >                Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... > >               " How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny... " > >               Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. > >               With best wishes, > >                Yogesh Lajmi > >                                           GOOD LUCK ! > >                > >              > >             > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > TW <tw853 > > >@gro ups.com > >Mon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM > > Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > >Dear Friends, > >1. " AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy. " > >2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else. > >Moon Star = ASC Sub > >Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub > >http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 > >Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section) > >Explanation of the Test Results > >3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of: > >A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section) > >Thanks and regards, > >TW > > > >@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp@> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Suprakash ji, > >> > >> AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and > >> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you > >> want to do it? > >> > >> Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please > >> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of > >> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your > >> suggestions incorporated. > >> > >> Thanks & Regards, > >> > >> Punit Pandey > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh < > >> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Dear Punit ji > >> > > >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the > >> > basic conditions assumed during the test. > >> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the > >> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been > >> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is > >> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between > >> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt > >> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way? > >> > > >> > If not, then the test has no relevance. > >> > > >> > Regards > >> > > >> > Suprakash > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > - > >> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp@> > >> > *To:* @gro ups.com > >> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM > >> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Dear Suresh ji, > >> > > >> > Please see your post ( > >> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote - > >> > > >> > 1. " In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as > >> > well as logical. " > >> > 2. " Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the > >> > wheel. " > >> > 3. " When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited > >> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research > >> > on the subject is surprising. " > >> > > >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method " most often " and the study > >> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you > >> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study > >> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say > >> > that we should not " blindly " follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point > >> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them " blindly " > >> > which also means following incorrect methods. > >> > > >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of > >> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long > >> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may > >> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of > >> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating > >> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum > >> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must > >> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we > >> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. > >> > > >> > Thanks & Regards, > >> > > >> > Punit Pandey > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@ .>wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Dear Punitji, > >> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not > >> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But > >> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years > >> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his > >> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be > >> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently > >> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. > >> >> Suresh Hattangadi > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >________________________________ > See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Dear Misra, Please go through the link given below then you can understand yourself. /message/28959 /message/29217 /message/29225 /message/9596 GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra wrote: Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisraRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:44 AM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Dear Sir, Go to YOUTUBE and type the following:My Awesome C-Section Baby Birth Delivery Video What is the time of birth?? can you tell about the time????? you can also see videos of births following the above link.. and judge for your self the sequence in every metho they use for delivery of babies. Regards I jordan.--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Sheetal <ratnamalag wrote:Sheetal <ratnamalagRe: What is the correct birth time?"Yogesh Lajmi" <yogeshlajmi, Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 9:47 AM Dear Sir U can go through any basic obstetric text book like Ian Donald, Williams, Datta, C.S.Dawn and so many. U will find this in all the text books. These are the practical,establish ed facts and also my experience for 30+ yrs, in my medical college service, also in my own private nursing home, & foreign services and not my beliefs only. Still birth can be (1) intrauterine (baby dies in uterus ie macerated stillborn) or (2) intranatal ( during labour ie fresh stillborn) after start of labour pains. Here child shows all signs of life during 1st and 2nd stage of labour but due to asphyxia/ hypoxia due to any reason, child may aspirate in the passage and child fails to take breath at birth. This I wrote in response to Mr K P Naidu's mail where he wrote that child didn't cry at birth and was sent to incubator for 2days......etc Child didn't cry but he has definitely taken the first breath that's why he was alive and kept in the incubator. We note the birth time for all babies whether it is healthy, large, miniscule,or sick etc. Even we have to note birth time for fresh and macerated still born baby as it has taken birth, for medico legal reason though it has no astrological importance. Also I want to mention here that even healthy babies sometime don't cry loudly with first breath and just take sigh or look like yawning. (it is my personal experience) We make them cry by tickling or tapping on the planter aspect of the feet. We are not concerned here about the cry, it should be loud and clear to enable us to note the time but we are more concerned about the first breath when birth time is to be noted. RegardsDr Sheetal On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Dear Sheetal, Pray may I know the Obstetric Text Book you are quoting this from,or, is it your personal experience,or belief ? A still Birth does not mean the child has died after Birth....many a time death occurs while the baby is in the womb itself...Isn't it ? The number of babies who begin breathing "feebly" or "imperceptibly" in my personal iponion will surely be miniscule... Kindly correct me... In the vast majority of cases the cry is loud and clear...to enable one to note the exact Time...! Yogesh Lajmi. Sheetal <ratnamalag (AT) gmail (DOT) com> @gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 1:51:07 PM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear sir Though 1st breath always coincide with cry of baby, 1st cry may be very feeble to notice sound. Cry is a sound produced by forceful gush of air through hollow respiratry pipe during breathing of child. 1st breath may not be sometimes so strong to produce loud sound but sigh is always there which is important to note birth time. Sometimes dead baby may be borned which will not cry at all or If breathing is not started in a live baby for 3-4 mt, there is always a brain death and child will die. If child was alive for 2days means child was breathing ( has taken 1st breath after birth) and signs of life were there and so further management in incubator was possible Here birth time to be taken is immidiately after removal of baby from the incision regardless of clamping the cord. This baby must have a feeble resp. at birth due to prematurity and so was managed in incubator with Oxygen .. Regards Dr Sheetal On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 10:36 PM, K. P. Naidu <konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: Dear friends,Recorded Birth time, Reported time, rectified birth time etc., are various terms in use in astrology. But I am repeatedly telling "EXACT/CORRECT/ TRUE BIRTH TIME" is known only to God. Let us admit that we, the humans, have our own limitations. Regarding first breath/first cry concept of Birth Time, I posted, some time back in this forum,(sorry I have no record date of this msg), with no response from any member, my own case i.e., my grand daughter wasprematuredly removed by caeserian operation and was immediately put under oxygen, kept in incubation for two days. what is her 1st breath (since no cry) ? She could not take breath on her own for two days (under oxygen in incubation). Now which definition of Birth time suits in this case ? What we know is a speck in the ocean of astrology science. Every one learns and practices, adopts some theories/methods based on his convictions, developes some skills attains some percentage of success in his predictions. Hiding this fact, people unnecessarily blaming or creticising others is not a healthy practice. No one is perfect to be franc. "I am OK, you are not OK" is the most commonly found weakness in our society. We should try to adopt "I am OK, you are OK" principle which will avoid all these problems. Thanks & Regards, Naidu KP K. P. Naidu,Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta,VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.Phone Resi: 0891-2712591. --- On Sun, 20/12/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.com Sunday, 20 December, 2009, 3:46 PM Dear Lajmi ji, I have repeated it many times and now saying it the last time. We are working with the assumption that the recorded time, if not exact, is close enough to the actual time, whatever way we define that actual time. The method that hits consistently close to the recorded time gives good indication of accuracy of the method. Allow us to conduct this exercise first and then you can raise questions. The current behavior of discouraging studies and diverting attention is not conductive for learning and not accepted. Though, as mentioned in another email, if you have a better suggestion for birth time verification (not rectification) , I am more than willing to listen it. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Dear Mr.Naidu, Isn't there a difference between "clinical death and physical death" ? Similarly, is there a difference between "clinically alive" and "physically alive"...? Does K.P., define these ? Or Traditional Astrology differentiate these ? Or any other System of Astrology define them ? These questions do not seem to have been addressed by anybody,including Punit.... Can any one throw some light on this issue...let us be clear on this issue,before we proceed to redefine "Correct TOB"... Will Punit like to enlighten us all, on this subject... ? I hope we get some revealing/enlighten ing replies,in order to be very clear...on subjects like Births and Deaths... With a lot of hope and expectations. .. Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! K. P. Naidu <konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in> @gro ups.com Thu, 17 December, 2009 11:57:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Members,various methods of RBT are discussed by KP followers in this forum. How to verify the so called exact birth time as arrived by any of these RBT, is not discussed much. How to prove the exactness/truth of such a Birth Time ? Is it the actual time of 1st breath of the child - God only knows.. A Birth Time which satisfies all the life events of the native, as per KP rules, I think, can be taken as correct Birth Time, whether such a Birth time satisfy the rules/equation of any RBT or not. Further, predictions made on such a Birth Time, as per KP rules, if come true and successful, such a Birth Time can be accepted as correct/exact Birth Time. Naidu KP K. P. Naidu,Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta,VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.--- On Thu, 17/12/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.com Thursday, 17 December, 2009, 10:56 AM Dear Suresh ji, Your thinking seems contradictory to what Shri KSK has taught us and that is the reason I had written earlier email. KP is not about blind following, Shri KSK rejected many methods of sages just because those didn't work 'consistently' . Instead of blind following, we should verify what works well and accept. If something doesn't work, we should discard it. Let me ask some questions to you based on what you have written. Which method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable? Why other methods are not practicable and logical? Who verified those methods? Why we should follow only one "stalwart" and reject all learned KP astrologers? Please see the file section and you will find that the most promoted method by Lajmi ji (Asc-Moon connection) is rejected by a study. We should not close our eyes and blindly follow anything, it is what I think. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:45 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh@ > wrote: Dear Punitji,Your comment that there are several methods available will confuse KP followers more.In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical.Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel.When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising.Our effort should be instead on finding out if this particular method suggested and advocated by Lajmiji does give correct results and research if any should be on this line. Suresh Hattangadi The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. 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Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Dear Dhirendra, Please be advised BTR in the above rule is not open-ended.This adjustment is limited by 25-30 min +/-.correction. As to the no of cases where,applicable or not, is subject of research.Confidence level is subjected to number of cases seen,larger the better,under same set of parameters....Ayanamsa, SW,Goeographical coordinates etc Regards, Satish--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra wrote:Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisraRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 8:14 PM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2009 Report Share Posted December 23, 2009 Dear Senthil ji/Misra ji and Members,Please excuse me for the interference. I missed these messages because I was travelling during that time and so could not comment. First, let it be clear that I am not a propagator of the Theory "Asc sub=Moon Star etc" nor I want to comment on it. Secondly I have no personal grudge against any member.Mr. Senthil ji has given very nice, mathematically perfect presentation!! Hats off to him. However I cannot to conclusion drawn, for following reasons. (Please refer message # 29225)1. It is assumed that Sun Sub (which is lasting for 1h:25m:20 s) is acting simultaneously in whole world. And for remaining 27h:34m:40s there is no Sun sub acting anywhere in the world. This is possible only when exact same degree of Ascendant rises all over the world at a given time which is impossible. 2. Total No Birth Time Zone ( 22h;48m in the case of Sun sub) calculated will be applicable for the place where Ascendant movement for the period of about 29 hours is surveyed. In fact during this so called Total No Birth Time Zone.......at many other places in the world Sun sub for the Ascendant will be acting at some time or the other. Request senior members to correct me if I am wrong.Actually what Mr. VGR Pavan is doing is correct way of verifying which BTR method is consistent enough to be accepted. I appeal all members to participate and make it a success.RegardsSubhash EktareSenthil <athi_ram Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 4:26:35 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Misra, Please go through the link given below then you can understand yourself. http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29217 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29225 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 9596 GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com> wrote: Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com>Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comTuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:44 AM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Dear Subhash Ektare, You have put Very Good logical questions and I appreciate your findings. However let me rephrase my statements/questions as given below. If we consider all the places within the band that is from 180W to 180E longitude & 65N to 65S latitude (ignoring the places where the people are not living most likely, example places which are coming on the Ocean/sea etc, - leave the few people who live in the boat/ship or sail etc) at any particular instant/time the entire 360 Degree Zodiac will be always occupied by the ascendants of the various places around the world. As mentioned earlier (Message ID# 29225) consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star and the time taken by the moon to transit the whole SUN star is approximately 29 Hours. If we assume that the MOON enters in the SUN star in a sign (where SUN star is present) on date DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM:SS Hrs GMT (DD-Day, MM-Month, YYYY-Year, HH-Hours, MM-minute, SS-Second) for discussion purpose let us assume the date 25-12-2009 00:00:00 GMT (don't see Ephemeris & ask next question there is no SUN star in this day) and if we take each and every people living places on the earth they will have transit of ascendant starting from Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 00:00:00 hrs GMT to next day Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 05:00:00 hrs GMT. For example, Places in INDIA which falls in 82.5Deg longitude irrespective of latitude consider the transit of ascendant from 25-12-2009 05:30:00 Hrs LMT to next day 26-12-2009 10:30:00 Hrs LMT Local mean time (LMT) Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Now out of this 29 Hrs duration, the childbirth can happen ONLY when the ascendant is transiting in CHILDBIRTH ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to sub lord is SUN) and there will not be any childbirth for the balance NO BIRTH TIME ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to any other sub lord except SUN). Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Based on this if we workout the told childbirth for the 29 Hours duration approximately we will get 426560 births (at the rate of 353,015 births per day as per 2009 record given in Message ID#29164). The entire 426560 birth charts will have only SUN sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than SUN sub (that is, KET, VEN, MOO, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER). Similarly for next block of succeeding 29(say) hours the entire 426560 birth charts will have only MOO sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than MOO sub (that is KET, VEN, SUN, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER) because the MOO must have moved to the next star that it’s own star (MOON star). This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world as well as there should not be any other planets happened to be the ascendant Sub lord except the one (Moon Star lord) within the block of time (29 Hours). IS THIS POSSIBLE???? Secondly, let us look at the Table given below (Sorted in Ascending Order Sub wise for the first 120 Deg of the Zodiac) Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 18 RA1 MAR VEN KET 25:53:20 26:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 27 RA2 VEN SUN KET 37:00:00 37:46:40 11:53:20 00:47:33 35 RA2 VEN MOO KET 49:40:00 50:26:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 43 RA3 MER MAR KET 61:53:20 62:40:00 11:46:40 00:47:07 51 RA3 MER RAH KET 74:26:40 75:13:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 59 RA3 MER JUP KET 85:46:40 86:33:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 76 RA4 MOO MER KET 108:33:20 109:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 2 RA1 MAR KET VEN 00:46:40 03:00:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 28 RA2 VEN SUN VEN 37:46:40 40:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 36 RA2 VEN MOO VEN 50:26:40 52:40:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 44 RA3 MER MAR VEN 62:40:00 64:53:20 10:20:00 00:41:20 52 RA3 MER RAH VEN 75:13:20 77:26:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 60 RA3 MER JUP VEN 86:33:20 88:46:40 09:20:00 00:37:20 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 08:26:40 00:33:47 3 RA1 MAR KET SUN 03:00:00 03:40:00 11:53:20 00:47:33 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 37 RA2 VEN MOO SUN 52:40:00 53:20:00 11:33:20 00:46:13 45 RA3 MER MAR SUN 64:53:20 65:33:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 53 RA3 MER RAH SUN 77:26:40 78:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 61 RA3 MER JUP SUN 88:46:40 89:26:40 10:53:20 00:43:33 70 RA4 MOO SAT SUN 100:20:00 101:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 07:46:40 00:31:07 4 RA1 MAR KET MOO 03:40:00 04:46:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 20 RA1 MAR SUN MOO 27:20:00 28:26:40 11:33:20 00:46:13 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 46 RA3 MER MAR MOO 65:33:20 66:40:00 11:26:40 00:45:47 54 RA3 MER RAH MOO 78:06:40 79:13:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 62 RA3 MER JUP MOO 89:26:40 90:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 63 RA4 MOO JUP MOO 90:00:00 90:33:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 71 RA4 MOO SAT MOO 101:00:00 102:06:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 06:40:00 00:26:40 5 RA1 MAR KET MAR 04:46:40 05:33:20 11:46:40 00:47:07 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 21 RA1 MAR SUN MAR 28:26:40 29:13:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 30 RA2 VEN MOO MAR 41:06:40 41:53:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 55 RA3 MER RAH MAR 79:13:20 80:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 64 RA4 MOO JUP MAR 90:33:20 91:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 72 RA4 MOO SAT MAR 102:06:40 102:53:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 05:53:20 00:23:33 6 RA1 MAR KET RAH 05:33:20 07:33:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 22 RA1 MAR SUN RAH 29:13:20 30:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 23 RA2 VEN SUN RAH 30:00:00 31:13:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 31 RA2 VEN MOO RAH 41:53:20 43:53:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 39 RA2 VEN MAR RAH 54:06:40 56:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 65 RA4 MOO JUP RAH 91:20:00 93:20:00 09:33:20 00:38:13 73 RA4 MOO SAT RAH 102:53:20 104:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 03:53:20 00:15:33 7 RA1 MAR KET JUP 07:33:20 09:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 24 RA2 VEN SUN JUP 31:13:20 33:00:00 10:53:20 00:43:33 32 RA2 VEN MOO JUP 43:53:20 45:40:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 40 RA2 VEN MAR JUP 56:06:40 57:53:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 48 RA3 MER RAH JUP 68:40:00 70:26:40 09:33:20 00:38:13 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 74 RA4 MOO SAT JUP 104:53:20 106:40:00 09:26:40 00:37:47 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 02:06:40 00:08:27 8 RA1 MAR KET SAT 09:20:00 11:26:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 25 RA2 VEN SUN SAT 33:00:00 35:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 33 RA2 VEN MOO SAT 45:40:00 47:46:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 41 RA2 VEN MAR SAT 57:53:20 60:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 49 RA3 MER RAH SAT 70:26:40 72:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 57 RA3 MER JUP SAT 81:46:40 83:53:20 09:26:40 00:37:47 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 9 RA1 MAR KET MER 11:26:40 13:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 26 RA2 VEN SUN MER 35:06:40 37:00:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 34 RA2 VEN MOO MER 47:46:40 49:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 42 RA3 MER MAR MER 60:00:00 61:53:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 50 RA3 MER RAH MER 72:33:20 74:26:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 58 RA3 MER JUP MER 83:53:20 85:46:40 09:40:00 00:38:40 67 RA4 MOO SAT MER 95:26:40 97:20:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 Let us consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star as mentioned above with the position (say 27:20:00 SUN Star MOO-Sub). The Balance degree in the star works out to 12:40:00. So the ascendant for all the places around the world will complete one full circle that is 360 Degree at the same time the MOON might have completed 11 Degree only with balance of 1:40:00 in the same star. Whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range for about 25:20:00 Degrees corresponding to 01:41:20 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 19 - maximum case) and 07:46:40 Degrees corresponding to 00:31:07 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 78 - minimum case) there should not be any birth to happen in those places except other locations where the ascendant is not closer to the MOON position within the proximity range. This means that for any birth chart the ascendant and MOON position will never be conjoined within this 25:20:00 Degrees (Max. Case) to 07:46:40 Degrees (Min case) orb except the special case Rapt Conjunction (0 to 00:40:00 Deg) when the MOON is in the same star & Sub (say SUN Star SUN Sub). This indicates that there is always an offset in the birth time for about 00:31:07 hrs to 01:41:20 hrs except for the Special case. This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range except other places. IS THIS POSSIBLE???? For Example: How will you fix BTR for the person born with CANCER, SCRPIO, PIECES Moon sign with JUP as STAR lord & RAH as sub whose ascendant also in the same Sign-star-sub or just one sub offset (plus+ or minus-) position? (This point was already raised in the below mentioned URL) /message/28959 Hr.No. Sgn:Str:Sub Degree 56 MER:JUP:JUP 080:00:00 57 MER:JUP:SAT 081:46:40 58 MER:JUP:MER 083:53:20 59 MER:JUP:KET 085:46:40 60 MER:JUP:VEN 086:33:20 61 MER:JUP:SUN 088:46:40 62 MER:JUP:MOO 089:26:40 63 MOO:JUP:MOO 090:00:00 64 MOO:JUP:MAR 090:33:20 65 MOO:JUP:RAH 091:20:00 66 MOO:SAT:SAT 093:20:00 67 MOO:SAT:MER 095:26:40 68 MOO:SAT:KET 097:20:00 69 MOO:SAT:VEN 098:06:40 70 MOO:SAT:SUN 100:20:00 71 MOO:SAT:MOO 101:00:00 72 MOO:SAT:MAR 102:06:40 73 MOO:SAT:RAH 102:53:20 74 MOO:SAT:JUP 104:53:20 If we look at the sub table (given above), Suppose the birth (Natal) chart moon position is in MOO-JUP-RAH (the degree is 91:20:00) then as per the rule one can fix the ascendant either in MER-JUP-JUP(the degree is 80:00:00) or in MOO-SAT-JUP(the degree is 104:53:20). The highest difference is 13.5 deg (say), which will give roughly 54min time offset. As per this no birth should happen in this time zone in those places. How this is correct? Request PUNIT/members to come to the conclusion whether to REJECT this Rule (which I have REJRCTED already) or Keep this Rule for further study (Personally I don’t find any scope/logic in this RULE to retain or to continue). If we don’t REJECT/ ELIMINATE this Rule now, then till the end of our last breath including our followers/beginners will be discussing about ‘N’ numbers of RBT rules and only more confusion can arise and solution may not be reached. We have to eliminate one by one and keep few/minimum RBT rules that may work well. For this our VGR has started some exercise request members to participate to find the way forward. I salute Mr.Subhash Ektare for raising very good logical question who made me to think further deep in the subject matter and to present this in appropriate manner. While doing this study have found some interesting things which I don’t want to rise now to avoid diverting the present topic before closing it. Note to Punit: ======== This message may get truncated after some time due to 64KB size limit. Please advise how to retain the message contents.(may be uploaded in Studies folder any other way?) My personal opinion is that each topic must be closed with some extend to move on the next topic but for this member’s support/contribution is essential otherwise the purpose of discussion will be lost or held at midway. GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Wed, 12/23/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektareRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 7:17 AM Dear Senthil ji/Misra ji and Members, Please excuse me for the interference. I missed these messages because I was travelling during that time and so could not comment. First, let it be clear that I am not a propagator of the Theory "Asc sub=Moon Star etc" nor I want to comment on it. Secondly I have no personal grudge against any member. Mr. Senthil ji has given very nice, mathematically perfect presentation! ! Hats off to him. However I cannot to conclusion drawn, for following reasons. (Please refer message # 29225) 1. It is assumed that Sun Sub (which is lasting for 1h:25m:20 s) is acting simultaneously in whole world. And for remaining 27h:34m:40s there is no Sun sub acting anywhere in the world. This is possible only when exact same degree of Ascendant rises all over the world at a given time which is impossible. 2. Total No Birth Time Zone ( 22h;48m in the case of Sun sub) calculated will be applicable for the place where Ascendant movement for the period of about 29 hours is surveyed. In fact during this so called Total No Birth Time Zone.......at many other places in the world Sun sub for the Ascendant will be acting at some time or the other. Request senior members to correct me if I am wrong. Actually what Mr. VGR Pavan is doing is correct way of verifying which BTR method is consistent enough to be accepted. I appeal all members to participate and make it a success. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 4:26:35 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Misra, Please go through the link given below then you can understand yourself. http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29217 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29225 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 9596 GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com> wrote: Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com>Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comTuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:44 AM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Dear Punitji Collection of reliable birth data : we need to have connection with nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of first cry. As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if : a) A in star of B and B in star of A b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc) e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb) g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb) h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified orb) Regards Suprakash - Punit Pandey Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Suprakash ji, AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you want to do it? Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your suggestions incorporated. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh (AT) cesc (DOT) co.in> wrote: Dear Punit ji Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the basic conditions assumed during the test. Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt conjunction.Was all the charts analysed in this way? If not, then the test has no relevance. Regards Suprakash - Punit Pandey Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Suresh ji, Please see your post (/message/30047). I quote - 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical." 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel." 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising." Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study found that the method doesn't work. Please see the file section and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. That is the reason I say that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts. Your opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly" which also means following incorrect methods. What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of available methods. People who are marketing their methods for a long time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh > wrote: Dear Punitji,I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji,s forty years experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. Suresh Hattangadi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Dear Senthil ji,I agree with you that according to BTR Rule under consideration (Mr. Shanmugam's rule and subsequently modified by Lajmi ji)), for all births on a particular Moon star day..........Asc sub lord should be only one i.e. Sun, Moon etc depending on star lord of the Moon. This is not true in all cases, is a fact........but possibility cannot be denied logically. May be a good subject for research. Mr. Lajmi ji uses this BTR method within +/- 30 min from the recorded time. According to me about 86% cases can be rectified within this range complying this rule. Please see attached file. However the birth time so arrived cannot be certified as correct/accurate unless VERIFIED. For this, the verification project being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is the only way to find most acceptable method(s). In the table of sub, I could not understand the calculations for Diff. in Deg and Duration columns. So cannot comment.Regarding point raised in URL /message/28959 ..........Possibility of Ascendant appearing in one sub earlier or one sub later than the position of Moon is 3/249 (three out of 249 subs) which is equal to 1.20% only. This can be treated as exception to the rule or in failure percentage of the rule. In my opinion this cannot form the basis for the rejection of the rule.Please note that I am not canvassing this BTR method but opposing the basis for its rejection. As Mr. Punit Pandey has mentioned verification being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is only correct way to select most acceptable method(s) in my humble opinion. Please note that Mr. Lajmi ji is also co-operating and taking part in the process. RegardsSubhash EktareSenthil <athi_ram Cc: subhash_ektare; punitpSent: Thu, December 24, 2009 11:07:25 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time?Dear Subhash Ektare, You have put Very Good logical questions and I appreciate your findings. However let me rephrase my statements/questions as given below. If we consider all the places within the band that is from 180W to 180E longitude & 65N to 65S latitude (ignoring the places where the people are not living most likely, example places which are coming on the Ocean/sea etc, - leave the few people who live in the boat/ship or sail etc) at any particular instant/time the entire 360 Degree Zodiac will be always occupied by the ascendants of the various places around the world. As mentioned earlier (Message ID# 29225) consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star and the time taken by the moon to transit the whole SUN star is approximately 29 Hours. If we assume that the MOON enters in the SUN star in a sign (where SUN star is present) on date DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM:SS Hrs GMT (DD-Day, MM-Month, YYYY-Year, HH-Hours, MM-minute, SS-Second) for discussion purpose let us assume the date 25-12-2009 00:00:00 GMT (do see Ephemeris ask next question there is no SUN star in this day) and if we take each and every people living places on the earth they will have transit of ascendant starting from Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 00:00:00 hrs GMT to next day Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 05:00:00 hrs GMT. For example, Places in INDIA which falls in 82.5Deg longitude irrespective of latitude consider the transit of ascendant from 25-12-2009 05:30:00 Hrs LMT to next day 26-12-2009 10:30:00 Hrs LMT Local mean time (LMT) Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Now out of this 29 Hrs duration, the childbirth can happen ONLY when the ascendant is transiting in CHILDBIRTH ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to sub lord is SUN) and there will not be any childbirth for the balance NO BIRTH TIME ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to any other sub lord except SUN). Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Based on this if we workout the told childbirth for the 29 Hours duration approximately we will get 426560 births (at the rate of 353,015 births per day as per 2009 record given in Message ID#29164). The entire 426560 birth charts will have only SUN sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than SUN sub (that is, KET, VEN, MOO, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER). Similarly for next block of succeeding 29(say) hours the entire 426560 birth charts will have only MOO sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than MOO sub (that is KET, VEN, SUN, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER) because the MOO must have moved to the next star that it’s own star (MOON star). This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world as well as there should not be any other planets happened to be the ascendant Sub lord except the one (Moon Star lord) within the block of time (29 Hours). IS THIS POSSIBLE???? Secondly, let us look at the Table given below (Sorted in Ascending Order Sub wise for the first 120 Deg of the Zodiac) Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 18 RA1 MAR VEN KET 25:53:20 26:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 27 RA2 VEN SUN KET 37:00:00 37:46:40 11:53:20 00:47:33 35 RA2 VEN MOO KET 49:40:00 50:26:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 43 RA3 MER MAR KET 61:53:20 62:40:00 11:46:40 00:47:07 51 RA3 MER RAH KET 74:26:40 75:13:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 59 RA3 MER JUP KET 85:46:40 86:33:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 76 RA4 MOO MER KET 108:33:20 109:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 2 RA1 MAR KET VEN 00:46:40 03:00:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 28 RA2 VEN SUN VEN 37:46:40 40:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 36 RA2 VEN MOO VEN 50:26:40 52:40:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 44 RA3 MER MAR VEN 62:40:00 64:53:20 10:20:00 00:41:20 52 RA3 MER RAH VEN 75:13:20 77:26:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 60 RA3 MER JUP VEN 86:33:20 88:46:40 09:20:00 00:37:20 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 08:26:40 00:33:47 3 RA1 MAR KET SUN 03:00:00 03:40:00 11:53:20 00:47:33 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 37 RA2 VEN MOO SUN 52:40:00 53:20:00 11:33:20 00:46:13 45 RA3 MER MAR SUN 64:53:20 65:33:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 53 RA3 MER RAH SUN 77:26:40 78:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 61 RA3 MER JUP SUN 88:46:40 89:26:40 10:53:20 00:43:33 70 RA4 MOO SAT SUN 100:20:00 101:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 07:46:40 00:31:07 4 RA1 MAR KET MOO 03:40:00 04:46:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 20 RA1 MAR SUN MOO 27:20:00 28:26:40 11:33:20 00:46:13 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 46 RA3 MER MAR MOO 65:33:20 66:40:00 11:26:40 00:45:47 54 RA3 MER RAH MOO 78:06:40 79:13:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 62 RA3 MER JUP MOO 89:26:40 90:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 63 RA4 MOO JUP MOO 90:00:00 90:33:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 71 RA4 MOO SAT MOO 101:00:00 102:06:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 06:40:00 00:26:40 5 RA1 MAR KET MAR 04:46:40 05:33:20 11:46:40 00:47:07 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 21 RA1 MAR SUN MAR 28:26:40 29:13:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 30 RA2 VEN MOO MAR 41:06:40 41:53:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 55 RA3 MER RAH MAR 79:13:20 80:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 64 RA4 MOO JUP MAR 90:33:20 91:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 72 RA4 MOO SAT MAR 102:06:40 102:53:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 05:53:20 00:23:33 6 RA1 MAR KET RAH 05:33:20 07:33:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 22 RA1 MAR SUN RAH 29:13:20 30:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 23 RA2 VEN SUN RAH 30:00:00 31:13:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 31 RA2 VEN MOO RAH 41:53:20 43:53:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 39 RA2 VEN MAR RAH 54:06:40 56:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 65 RA4 MOO JUP RAH 91:20:00 93:20:00 09:33:20 00:38:13 73 RA4 MOO SAT RAH 102:53:20 104:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 03:53:20 00:15:33 7 RA1 MAR KET JUP 07:33:20 09:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 24 RA2 VEN SUN JUP 31:13:20 33:00:00 10:53:20 00:43:33 32 RA2 VEN MOO JUP 43:53:20 45:40:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 40 RA2 VEN MAR JUP 56:06:40 57:53:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 48 RA3 MER RAH JUP 68:40:00 70:26:40 09:33:20 00:38:13 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 74 RA4 MOO SAT JUP 104:53:20 106:40:00 09:26:40 00:37:47 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 02:06:40 00:08:27 8 RA1 MAR KET SAT 09:20:00 11:26:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 25 RA2 VEN SUN SAT 33:00:00 35:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 33 RA2 VEN MOO SAT 45:40:00 47:46:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 41 RA2 VEN MAR SAT 57:53:20 60:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 49 RA3 MER RAH SAT 70:26:40 72:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 57 RA3 MER JUP SAT 81:46:40 83:53:20 09:26:40 00:37:47 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 9 RA1 MAR KET MER 11:26:40 13:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 26 RA2 VEN SUN MER 35:06:40 37:00:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 34 RA2 VEN MOO MER 47:46:40 49:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 42 RA3 MER MAR MER 60:00:00 61:53:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 50 RA3 MER RAH MER 72:33:20 74:26:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 58 RA3 MER JUP MER 83:53:20 85:46:40 09:40:00 00:38:40 67 RA4 MOO SAT MER 95:26:40 97:20:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 Let us consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star as mentioned above with the position (say 27:20:00 SUN Star MOO-Sub). The Balance degree in the star works out to 12:40:00. So the ascendant for all the places around the world will complete one full circle that is 360 Degree at the same time the MOON might have completed 11 Degree only with balance of 1:40:00 in the same star. Whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range for about 25:20:00 Degrees corresponding to 01:41:20 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 19 - maximum case) and 07:46:40 Degrees corresponding to 00:31:07 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 78 - minimum case) there should not be any birth to happen in those places except other locations where the ascendant is not closer to the MOON position within the proximity range. This means that for any birth chart the ascendant and MOON position will never be conjoined within this 25:20:00 Degrees (Max. Case) to 07:46:40 Degrees (Min case) orb except the special case Rapt Conjunction (0 to 00:40:00 Deg) when the MOON is in the same star & Sub (say SUN Star SUN Sub). This indicates that there is always an offset in the birth time for about 00:31:07 hrs to 01:41:20 hrs except for the Special case. This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range except other places. IS THIS POSSIBLE???? For Example: How will you fix BTR for the person born with CANCER, SCRPIO, PIECES Moon sign with JUP as STAR lord & RAH as sub whose ascendant also in the same Sign-star-sub or just one sub offset (plus+ or minus-) position? (This point was already raised in the below mentioned URL) /message/28959 Hr.No. Sgn:Str:Sub Degree 56 MER:JUP:JUP 080:00:00 57 MER:JUP:SAT 081:46:40 58 MER:JUP:MER 083:53:20 59 MER:JUP:KET 085:46:40 60 MER:JUP:VEN 086:33:20 61 MER:JUP:SUN 088:46:40 62 MER:JUP:MOO 089:26:40 63 MOO:JUP:MOO 090:00:00 64 MOO:JUP:MAR 090:33:20 65 MOO:JUP:RAH 091:20:00 66 MOO:SAT:SAT 093:20:00 67 MOO:SAT:MER 095:26:40 68 MOO:SAT:KET 097:20:00 69 MOO:SAT:VEN 098:06:40 70 MOO:SAT:SUN 100:20:00 71 MOO:SAT:MOO 101:00:00 72 MOO:SAT:MAR 102:06:40 73 MOO:SAT:RAH 102:53:20 74 MOO:SAT:JUP 104:53:20 If we look at the sub table (given above), Suppose the birth (Natal) chart moon position is in MOO-JUP-RAH (the degree is 91:20:00) then as per the rule one can fix the ascendant either in MER-JUP-JUP(the degree is 80:00:00) or in MOO-SAT-JUP(the degree is 104:53:20). The highest difference is 13.5 deg (say), which will give roughly 54min time offset. As per this no birth should happen in this time zone in those places. How this is correct? Request PUNIT/members to come to the conclusion whether to REJECT this Rule (which I have REJRCTED already) or Keep this Rule for further study (Personally I don’t find any scope/logic in this RULE to retain or to continue). If we don’t REJECT/ ELIMINATE this Rule now, then till the end of our last breath including our followers/beginners will be discussing about ‘N’ numbers of RBT rules and only more confusion can arise and solution may not be reached. We have to eliminate one by one and keep few/minimum RBT rules that may work well. For this our VGR has started some exercise request members to participate to find the way forward. I salute Mr.Subhash Ektare for raising very good logical question who made me to think further deep in the subject matter and to present this in appropriate manner. While doing this study have found some interesting things which I don’t want to rise now to avoid diverting the present topic before closing it. Note to Punit: ======== This message may get truncated after some time due to 64KB size limit. Please advise how to retain the message contents.(may be uploaded in Studies folder any other way?) My personal opinion is that each topic must be closed with some extend to move on the next topic but for this member’s support/contribution is essential otherwise the purpose of discussion will be lost or held at midway. GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Wed, 12/23/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektareRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 7:17 AM Dear Senthil ji/Misra ji and Members, Please excuse me for the interference. I missed these messages because I was travelling during that time and so could not comment. First, let it be clear that I am not a propagator of the Theory "Asc sub=Moon Star etc" nor I want to comment on it. Secondly I have no personal grudge against any member. Mr. Senthil ji has given very nice, mathematically perfect presentation! ! Hats off to him. However I cannot to conclusion drawn, for following reasons. (Please refer message # 29225) 1. It is assumed that Sun Sub (which is lasting for 1h:25m:20 s) is acting simultaneously in whole world. And for remaining 27h:34m:40s there is no Sun sub acting anywhere in the world. This is possible only when exact same degree of Ascendant rises all over the world at a given time which is impossible. 2. Total No Birth Time Zone ( 22h;48m in the case of Sun sub) calculated will be applicable for the place where Ascendant movement for the period of about 29 hours is surveyed. In fact during this so called Total No Birth Time Zone.......at many other places in the world Sun sub for the Ascendant will be acting at some time or the other. Request senior members to correct me if I am wrong. Actually what Mr. VGR Pavan is doing is correct way of verifying which BTR method is consistent enough to be accepted. I appeal all members to participate and make it a success. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 4:26:35 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Misra, Please go through the link given below then you can understand yourself. http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29217 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29225 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 9596 GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com> wrote: Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com>Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comTuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:44 AM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. 1 of 1 File(s) BTR_Check.xls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Dear Suprakash ji, I do not understand how you will use point 'a' to 'h' in case of ascendnat-moon connection rule? Does it mean that - Ascedant sub lord can be 0) moon's star a) in the star of Moon's star b) in sub of Moon's star c) in sign Moon's star c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa [this is not KP, so ignoring this] d) Ascendant sub conjoins Moon's star e) A third planet is in orb of ascedant sub and moon's star f) ascendant sub aspects moon's star (vedic) g) moon's star aspects ascedant sub (vedic) f) ascendant sub aspects moon's star (vedic) g) moon's star aspects ascedant sub (vedic) If my understanding is correct, at least in the case of ascendant-moon rule it doesn't make sense because one of the above condition will be always going to be satisfied. So many rule, makes almost any time correct. You have mentioned so many conditions. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh wrote: Dear Punitji Collection of reliable birth data : we need to have connection with nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of first cry. As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if : a) A in star of B and B in star of A b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc) e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb) g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb) h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified orb) Regards Suprakash - Punit Pandey Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Suprakash ji, AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you want to do it? Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your suggestions incorporated. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh wrote: Dear Punit ji Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the basic conditions assumed during the test. Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt conjunction.Was all the charts analysed in this way? If not, then the test has no relevance. Regards Suprakash - Punit Pandey Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Suresh ji, Please see your post (/message/30047). I quote - 1. " In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical. " 2. " Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel. " 3. " When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising. " Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method " most often " and the study found that the method doesn't work. Please see the file section and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. That is the reason I say that we should not " blindly " follow even Stalwarts. Your opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them " blindly " which also means following incorrect methods. What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of available methods. People who are marketing their methods for a long time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh wrote: Dear Punitji,I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji,s forty years experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. Suresh Hattangadi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Dear Subhash Ektare, My replies are as given below. //I agree with you that according to BTR Rule under consideration (Mr. Shanmugam's rule and subsequently modified by Lajmi ji)), for all births on a particular Moon star day..........Asc sub lord should be only one i.e. Sun, Moon etc depending on star lord of the Moon. This is not true in all cases, is a fact........but possibility cannot be denied logically. // From your statement can understand that for the entire world the birth ascendant Sub lord always happen to be MOON star lord!!!!. But there is no possibility in it. You can see the study of AA rated charts as mentioned by Tin win in his various E-mails. For any RULEs we can always bring and present few charts to statisfy the required % as per our wish because in INDIA itself more than 100 crore people are available and getting charts is not a big deal. Even you can always do the same RBT exercise for the all AA rated charts presented by Tin win & others kept in our files section and same % may be brought. What is the point in it??? //In the table of sub, I could not understand the calculations for Diff. in Deg and Duration columns. So cannot comment.// Diff. in Deg = Start of Next Same Sub- End of Current Same Sub=(No Birth Zone) Duration for No Birth Zone = Diff. in Deg X 4 Min I have noticed the ERROR in the Diff. in deg & duration for the last SUB of each planet except KET in my previous table which i have corrected and shown in BLUE color (Refer below given new part Table). For Example take SUN sub (1st KET sub End) = 00:46:40 (2nd KET sub Start) = 25:53:20 Diff. in Deg = 25:53:20 - 00:46:40 =25:06:40(=No Birth Zone) Duration = 25:06:40 * 4 min = 01:40:27 Hrs(No Birth Zone time range) //Possibility of Ascendant appearing in one sub earlier or one sub later than the position of Moon is 3/249 (three out of 249 subs) which is equal to 1.20% only. // what you have taken is for 360 deg 249 subs.This is a simple math calculation. Here you have to take within one No Birth Zone. If you see the Duration/time wise can understand it well. Take any birth happened in No Birth zone(that is ascendant Sub is not Moon Star).What you are going to do in RBT? Simply shift the ascendant to Birth Zone such that the time correction is very minimum/least. Let us take the Maximum & minimum No birth zone of each Sub lord(Kindly note that the additional row in BLUE color text is the corrected value compated to the table given earlier-Regret inconvenience caused) (Sub wise - part Table). Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 09:40:00 00:38:40 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 22:53:20 01:31:33 The least No birth Zone is 09:00:00 Deg (00:36:00 hrs) in VEN. The highest No birth Zone is 25:20:00 Deg (01:41:20 hrs) in SUN. Case:1(Minimum -Worst Case) ====================== Assume a birth happened when the MOON is in VEN star and ascendant is at the mid of No birth Zone ( that is 04:30:00 Deg) simply you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 00:18:00 hrs (+ or - 18 minute) correction which is the least possibility. For VEN, the error possibility is equal to 50% (18/36) the correction required is (+/- 18min) Case:2(Maximum -Worst Case) ======================= Assume a birth happened when the MOON is in SUN star and ascendant is at the mid of No birth Zone ( that is 12:40:00 Deg) simply you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 00:50:40 hrs (+ or - 51 minute) correction which is the least possibility. For SUN, the error possibility is equal to 50% (51/101) the correction required is (+/- 51min) All Cases ======= When the MOON is in particular star,Consider only the births which are happened in No birth Zone and ascendants of those births are in a range(that is at the start of No Birth Zone to mid of No birth Zone).Simple you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 0 Min to half of the No birth Zone duration. The error possibility is equal to 0% to 50%( that is 00:00:00 Deg to 12:40:00 Deg ). For which the correction required is (+/- 0 to 51min) ************************************************************************************************** So now you can select the charts as per your wish and present it. This is what you have done in the attached file. You have selected 50 charts and Justfying 86% for +/-30 minute correction. See the part table what you have given. Time when Asc sub=Moon Str and Asc sub-sub=Moon sub Within 5 Min +/- Within 10 Min +/- Within 15 Min +/- Within 20 Min +/- Within 25 Min +/- Within 30 Min +/- Beyond 30 Min +/- Total Cases 15 8 7 7 4 2 7 Within +/-30min 43 (86%) within +/-25min 41 (82%) within+/- 20min 37 (74%) within +/-15min 30 (60%) within +/- 10min 23 (46%) Within +/- 5min 15 (30%) Kindly note that in the above table "Beyond 30 min" column will never exceed 51min (Maximum case) so we can call it "Beyond 30 min upto 51min" You have selected 50 charts and showing actually 30% to 86% is ERRORS ONLY(by using the RBT rule). Today I really learned from you, how to FOOL the innocents (even clever) by showing one mathematical comparison table. I don’t have any personal feelings with any of our forum members including Shri Lajmi. I am opposing the RULE only. Just because of this one RULE we can’t underestimate anybody. Shri Lajmi is one of the JAMBAVAN (Senior most member age/experience wise) of this forum who has got vast knowledge in astrology and contributes lot to this forum members and I really appreciate it. His cooperation for VGR’s RBT exercise is highly respected. I don’t have much energy to talk on this subject anymore and let us work together with VGR for the RBT exercise to find the way forward. Note to VGR ========= Dear VGR can you please post the Quiz details for the members to participate. GOOD LUCK!! D.Senthil --- On Sat, 12/26/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektareRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Cc: "Senthil" <athi_ram, punitp, "Mr. Yogesh Rao Lajmi" <lyrastro1Saturday, December 26, 2009, 4:10 AM Dear Senthil ji, I agree with you that according to BTR Rule under consideration (Mr. Shanmugam's rule and subsequently modified by Lajmi ji)), for all births on a particular Moon star day..........Asc sub lord should be only one i.e. Sun, Moon etc depending on star lord of the Moon. This is not true in all cases, is a fact........but possibility cannot be denied logically. May be a good subject for research. Mr. Lajmi ji uses this BTR method within +/- 30 min from the recorded time. According to me about 86% cases can be rectified within this range complying this rule. Please see attached file. However the birth time so arrived cannot be certified as correct/accurate unless VERIFIED. For this, the verification project being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is the only way to find most acceptable method(s). In the table of sub, I could not understand the calculations for Diff. in Deg and Duration columns. So cannot comment. Regarding point raised in URL /message/28959 .......... Possibility of Ascendant appearing in one sub earlier or one sub later than the position of Moon is 3/249 (three out of 249 subs) which is equal to 1.20% only. This can be treated as exception to the rule or in failure percentage of the rule. In my opinion this cannot form the basis for the rejection of the rule. Please note that I am not canvassing this BTR method but opposing the basis for its rejection. As Mr. Punit Pandey has mentioned verification being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is only correct way to select most acceptable method(s) in my humble opinion. Please note that Mr. Lajmi ji is also co-operating and taking part in the process. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram Cc: subhash_ektare; punitpSent: Thu, December 24, 2009 11:07:25 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Subhash Ektare, You have put Very Good logical questions and I appreciate your findings. However let me rephrase my statements/questions as given below. If we consider all the places within the band that is from 180W to 180E longitude & 65N to 65S latitude (ignoring the places where the people are not living most likely, example places which are coming on the Ocean/sea etc, - leave the few people who live in the boat/ship or sail etc) at any particular instant/time the entire 360 Degree Zodiac will be always occupied by the ascendants of the various places around the world. As mentioned earlier (Message ID# 29225) consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star and the time taken by the moon to transit the whole SUN star is approximately 29 Hours. If we assume that the MOON enters in the SUN star in a sign (where SUN star is present) on date DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM:SS Hrs GMT (DD-Day, MM-Month, YYYY-Year, HH-Hours, MM-minute, SS-Second) for discussion purpose let us assume the date 25-12-2009 00:00:00 GMT (don't see Ephemeris & ask next question there is no SUN star in this day) and if we take each and every people living places on the earth they will have transit of ascendant starting from Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 00:00:00 hrs GMT to next day Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 05:00:00 hrs GMT. For example, Places in INDIA which falls in 82.5Deg longitude irrespective of latitude consider the transit of ascendant from 25-12-2009 05:30:00 Hrs LMT to next day 26-12-2009 10:30:00 Hrs LMT Local mean time (LMT) Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Now out of this 29 Hrs duration, the childbirth can happen ONLY when the ascendant is transiting in CHILDBIRTH ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to sub lord is SUN) and there will not be any childbirth for the balance NO BIRTH TIME ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to any other sub lord except SUN). Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Based on this if we workout the told childbirth for the 29 Hours duration approximately we will get 426560 births (at the rate of 353,015 births per day as per 2009 record given in Message ID#29164). The entire 426560 birth charts will have only SUN sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than SUN sub (that is, KET, VEN, MOO, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER). Similarly for next block of succeeding 29(say) hours the entire 426560 birth charts will have only MOO sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than MOO sub (that is KET, VEN, SUN, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER) because the MOO must have moved to the next star that it’s own star (MOON star). This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world as well as there should not be any other planets happened to be the ascendant Sub lord except the one (Moon Star lord) within the block of time (29 Hours). IS THIS POSSIBLE???? Secondly, let us look at the Table given below (Sorted in Ascending Order Sub wise for the first 120 Deg of the Zodiac) Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 18 RA1 MAR VEN KET 25:53:20 26:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 27 RA2 VEN SUN KET 37:00:00 37:46:40 11:53:20 00:47:33 35 RA2 VEN MOO KET 49:40:00 50:26:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 43 RA3 MER MAR KET 61:53:20 62:40:00 11:46:40 00:47:07 51 RA3 MER RAH KET 74:26:40 75:13:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 59 RA3 MER JUP KET 85:46:40 86:33:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 76 RA4 MOO MER KET 108:33:20 109:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 2 RA1 MAR KET VEN 00:46:40 03:00:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 28 RA2 VEN SUN VEN 37:46:40 40:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 36 RA2 VEN MOO VEN 50:26:40 52:40:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 44 RA3 MER MAR VEN 62:40:00 64:53:20 10:20:00 00:41:20 52 RA3 MER RAH VEN 75:13:20 77:26:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 60 RA3 MER JUP VEN 86:33:20 88:46:40 09:20:00 00:37:20 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 08:26:40 00:33:47 3 RA1 MAR KET SUN 03:00:00 03:40:00 11:53:20 00:47:33 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 37 RA2 VEN MOO SUN 52:40:00 53:20:00 11:33:20 00:46:13 45 RA3 MER MAR SUN 64:53:20 65:33:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 53 RA3 MER RAH SUN 77:26:40 78:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 61 RA3 MER JUP SUN 88:46:40 89:26:40 10:53:20 00:43:33 70 RA4 MOO SAT SUN 100:20:00 101:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 07:46:40 00:31:07 4 RA1 MAR KET MOO 03:40:00 04:46:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 20 RA1 MAR SUN MOO 27:20:00 28:26:40 11:33:20 00:46:13 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 46 RA3 MER MAR MOO 65:33:20 66:40:00 11:26:40 00:45:47 54 RA3 MER RAH MOO 78:06:40 79:13:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 62 RA3 MER JUP MOO 89:26:40 90:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 63 RA4 MOO JUP MOO 90:00:00 90:33:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 71 RA4 MOO SAT MOO 101:00:00 102:06:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 06:40:00 00:26:40 5 RA1 MAR KET MAR 04:46:40 05:33:20 11:46:40 00:47:07 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 21 RA1 MAR SUN MAR 28:26:40 29:13:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 30 RA2 VEN MOO MAR 41:06:40 41:53:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 55 RA3 MER RAH MAR 79:13:20 80:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 64 RA4 MOO JUP MAR 90:33:20 91:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 72 RA4 MOO SAT MAR 102:06:40 102:53:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 05:53:20 00:23:33 6 RA1 MAR KET RAH 05:33:20 07:33:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 22 RA1 MAR SUN RAH 29:13:20 30:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 23 RA2 VEN SUN RAH 30:00:00 31:13:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 31 RA2 VEN MOO RAH 41:53:20 43:53:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 39 RA2 VEN MAR RAH 54:06:40 56:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 65 RA4 MOO JUP RAH 91:20:00 93:20:00 09:33:20 00:38:13 73 RA4 MOO SAT RAH 102:53:20 104:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 03:53:20 00:15:33 7 RA1 MAR KET JUP 07:33:20 09:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 24 RA2 VEN SUN JUP 31:13:20 33:00:00 10:53:20 00:43:33 32 RA2 VEN MOO JUP 43:53:20 45:40:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 40 RA2 VEN MAR JUP 56:06:40 57:53:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 48 RA3 MER RAH JUP 68:40:00 70:26:40 09:33:20 00:38:13 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 74 RA4 MOO SAT JUP 104:53:20 106:40:00 09:26:40 00:37:47 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 02:06:40 00:08:27 8 RA1 MAR KET SAT 09:20:00 11:26:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 25 RA2 VEN SUN SAT 33:00:00 35:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 33 RA2 VEN MOO SAT 45:40:00 47:46:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 41 RA2 VEN MAR SAT 57:53:20 60:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 49 RA3 MER RAH SAT 70:26:40 72:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 57 RA3 MER JUP SAT 81:46:40 83:53:20 09:26:40 00:37:47 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 9 RA1 MAR KET MER 11:26:40 13:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 26 RA2 VEN SUN MER 35:06:40 37:00:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 34 RA2 VEN MOO MER 47:46:40 49:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 42 RA3 MER MAR MER 60:00:00 61:53:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 50 RA3 MER RAH MER 72:33:20 74:26:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 58 RA3 MER JUP MER 83:53:20 85:46:40 09:40:00 00:38:40 67 RA4 MOO SAT MER 95:26:40 97:20:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 Let us consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star as mentioned above with the position (say 27:20:00 SUN Star MOO-Sub). The Balance degree in the star works out to 12:40:00. So the ascendant for all the places around the world will complete one full circle that is 360 Degree at the same time the MOON might have completed 11 Degree only with balance of 1:40:00 in the same star. Whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range for about 25:20:00 Degrees corresponding to 01:41:20 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 19 - maximum case) and 07:46:40 Degrees corresponding to 00:31:07 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 78 - minimum case) there should not be any birth to happen in those places except other locations where the ascendant is not closer to the MOON position within the proximity range. This means that for any birth chart the ascendant and MOON position will never be conjoined within this 25:20:00 Degrees (Max. Case) to 07:46:40 Degrees (Min case) orb except the special case Rapt Conjunction (0 to 00:40:00 Deg) when the MOON is in the same star & Sub (say SUN Star SUN Sub). This indicates that there is always an offset in the birth time for about 00:31:07 hrs to 01:41:20 hrs except for the Special case. This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range except other places. IS THIS POSSIBLE???? For Example: How will you fix BTR for the person born with CANCER, SCRPIO, PIECES Moon sign with JUP as STAR lord & RAH as sub whose ascendant also in the same Sign-star-sub or just one sub offset (plus+ or minus-) position? (This point was already raised in the below mentioned URL) /message/28959 Hr.No. Sgn:Str:Sub Degree 56 MER:JUP:JUP 080:00:00 57 MER:JUP:SAT 081:46:40 58 MER:JUP:MER 083:53:20 59 MER:JUP:KET 085:46:40 60 MER:JUP:VEN 086:33:20 61 MER:JUP:SUN 088:46:40 62 MER:JUP:MOO 089:26:40 63 MOO:JUP:MOO 090:00:00 64 MOO:JUP:MAR 090:33:20 65 MOO:JUP:RAH 091:20:00 66 MOO:SAT:SAT 093:20:00 67 MOO:SAT:MER 095:26:40 68 MOO:SAT:KET 097:20:00 69 MOO:SAT:VEN 098:06:40 70 MOO:SAT:SUN 100:20:00 71 MOO:SAT:MOO 101:00:00 72 MOO:SAT:MAR 102:06:40 73 MOO:SAT:RAH 102:53:20 74 MOO:SAT:JUP 104:53:20 If we look at the sub table (given above), Suppose the birth (Natal) chart moon position is in MOO-JUP-RAH (the degree is 91:20:00) then as per the rule one can fix the ascendant either in MER-JUP-JUP(the degree is 80:00:00) or in MOO-SAT-JUP(the degree is 104:53:20). The highest difference is 13.5 deg (say), which will give roughly 54min time offset. As per this no birth should happen in this time zone in those places. How this is correct? Request PUNIT/members to come to the conclusion whether to REJECT this Rule (which I have REJRCTED already) or Keep this Rule for further study (Personally I don’t find any scope/logic in this RULE to retain or to continue). If we don’t REJECT/ ELIMINATE this Rule now, then till the end of our last breath including our followers/beginners will be discussing about ‘N’ numbers of RBT rules and only more confusion can arise and solution may not be reached. We have to eliminate one by one and keep few/minimum RBT rules that may work well. For this our VGR has started some exercise request members to participate to find the way forward. I salute Mr.Subhash Ektare for raising very good logical question who made me to think further deep in the subject matter and to present this in appropriate manner. While doing this study have found some interesting things which I don’t want to rise now to avoid diverting the present topic before closing it. Note to Punit: ======== This message may get truncated after some time due to 64KB size limit. Please advise how to retain the message contents.(may be uploaded in Studies folder any other way?) My personal opinion is that each topic must be closed with some extend to move on the next topic but for this member’s support/contribution is essential otherwise the purpose of discussion will be lost or held at midway. GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Wed, 12/23/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektareRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 7:17 AM Dear Senthil ji/Misra ji and Members, Please excuse me for the interference. I missed these messages because I was travelling during that time and so could not comment. First, let it be clear that I am not a propagator of the Theory "Asc sub=Moon Star etc" nor I want to comment on it. Secondly I have no personal grudge against any member. Mr. Senthil ji has given very nice, mathematically perfect presentation! ! Hats off to him. However I cannot to conclusion drawn, for following reasons. (Please refer message # 29225) 1. It is assumed that Sun Sub (which is lasting for 1h:25m:20 s) is acting simultaneously in whole world. And for remaining 27h:34m:40s there is no Sun sub acting anywhere in the world. This is possible only when exact same degree of Ascendant rises all over the world at a given time which is impossible. 2. Total No Birth Time Zone ( 22h;48m in the case of Sun sub) calculated will be applicable for the place where Ascendant movement for the period of about 29 hours is surveyed. In fact during this so called Total No Birth Time Zone.......at many other places in the world Sun sub for the Ascendant will be acting at some time or the other. Request senior members to correct me if I am wrong. Actually what Mr. VGR Pavan is doing is correct way of verifying which BTR method is consistent enough to be accepted. I appeal all members to participate and make it a success. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 4:26:35 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Misra, Please go through the link given below then you can understand yourself. http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29217 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29225 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 9596 GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com> wrote: Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com>Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comTuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:44 AM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Already the Astrologers are a very respected lot in society, and you will bring more respect on them with this excersise ? Now astrologers will sit in front of delivery rooms and then note the time of cry every time the expectant mother is taken to the delivery room ? Is this the state we have been brought down to,as being suggested ? Good. Then what is the point of discussion of rectification methods and such topics, if only the first cry is going to constitute the time of Birth, then who has checked our cry and the cries of rest of us ? And what is the sense of doing astrology if this is the way we are going to go about checking matters ? This means that we must do all physical checking before pronouncing whether a mother will have child or not, we must ask her to get medical reports of her having got impregnated and become pregnant ? Why? What is the astrologer for ? This means we must check for a girl who is asking whether she will have love marriage or not- every evening go where she goes, whom she meets, how much love is there between her and the boy, before pronouncing LOve marriage to her ? Then what is the astrologer doing astrology for ? Why does a good astrologer need external help for all this ? Why cant the study be so good that one does not need all this parepharnalia to predict ? If you are told the time of the first cry, only then you will be able to predict in detail about that child? Otherwise not ? What type of astrology are we into ? And after having known the time of the first cry, do You think whatever you predict will be right ? Boss this is not astrology. An astrologer needs to speak to no one. He must be efficient enough to get the answers on his own by his power of discriminations and his Panchanga, Pen and paper. Bhaskar. , " Suprakash Ghosh " <suprakash.ghosh wrote: > > Dear Punitji > > Collection of reliable birth data : we need to have connection with nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of first cry. > > As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if : > > a) A in star of B and B in star of A > b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A > c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A > c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa > d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc) > e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C > f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb) > g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb) > h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified orb) > > > > Regards > > Suprakash > > > - > Punit Pandey > > Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM > Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > Dear Suprakash ji, > > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you want to do it? > > > > > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your suggestions incorporated. > > Thanks & Regards, > > Punit Pandey > > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh wrote: > > > > Dear Punit ji > > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the basic conditions assumed during the test. > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt conjunction.Was all the charts analysed in this way? > > If not, then the test has no relevance. > > Regards > > Suprakash > > > - > Punit Pandey > > Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM > Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > Dear Suresh ji, > > Please see your post (/message/30047). I quote - > > 1. " In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical. " > 2. " Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel. " > 3. " When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising. " > > Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method " most often " and the study found that the method doesn't work. Please see the file section and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. That is the reason I say that we should not " blindly " follow even Stalwarts. Your opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them " blindly " which also means following incorrect methods. > > What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of available methods. People who are marketing their methods for a long time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. > > Thanks & Regards, > > Punit Pandey > > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh wrote: > > > Dear Punitji, > I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji,s forty years experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. > Suresh Hattangadi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Asc-Moon connection may be right or wrong way God Knows this. But trying to find this connection at times shifts the birth time to half an hour on either sides of recorded time. In this case when the Querist who has come with his horoscope, if told this possibility, then he will look at us as if we have come out of some mad house, because he is not ready to listen that his recorded birth time can be so awfully off the mark. Especially I tried this once on a case where I did not know that the natives father is himself an astrologer and had made perfect recording of the birth time of this native who had come to me. Thank God before I pronounced my verdict, he told me this fact, and I kept quiet otherwise I would have lost face that day, had I told him that Your asc and Moon is not having any StarLord or SubLord connection so I have to shift the time to 30 minutes ahead to make them connect. Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Already the Astrologers are a very respected lot in society, and you will bring more respect on them with this excersise ? > > Now astrologers will sit in front of delivery rooms and then note the time of cry every time the expectant mother is taken to the delivery room ? Is this the state we have been brought down to,as being suggested ? Good. > > Then what is the point of discussion of rectification methods and such topics, if only the first cry is going to constitute the time of Birth, then who has checked our cry and the cries of rest of us ? And what is the sense of doing astrology if this is the way we are going to go about checking matters ? This means that we must do all physical checking before pronouncing whether a mother will have child or not, we must ask her to get medical reports of her having got impregnated and become pregnant ? Why? What is the astrologer for ? This means we must check for a girl who is asking whether she will have love marriage or not- every evening go where she goes, whom she meets, how much love is there between her and the boy, before pronouncing LOve marriage to her ? Then what is the astrologer doing astrology for ? > > Why does a good astrologer need external help for all this ? Why cant the study be so good that one does not need all this parepharnalia to predict ? > > If you are told the time of the first cry, only then you will be able to predict in detail about that child? Otherwise not ? What type of astrology are we into ? > > And after having known the time of the first cry, do You think whatever you predict will be right ? > > Boss this is not astrology. An astrologer needs to speak to no one. He must be efficient enough to get the answers on his own by his power of discriminations and his Panchanga, Pen and paper. > > Bhaskar. > > > > , " Suprakash Ghosh " <suprakash.ghosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear Punitji > > > > Collection of reliable birth data : we need to have connection with nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of first cry. > > > > As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if : > > > > a) A in star of B and B in star of A > > b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A > > c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A > > c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa > > d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc) > > e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C > > f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb) > > g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb) > > h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified orb) > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Suprakash > > > > > > - > > Punit Pandey > > > > Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM > > Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > > > > > > Dear Suprakash ji, > > > > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you want to do it? > > > > > > > > > > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your suggestions incorporated. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Punit ji > > > > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the basic conditions assumed during the test. > > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt conjunction.Was all the charts analysed in this way? > > > > If not, then the test has no relevance. > > > > Regards > > > > Suprakash > > > > > > - > > Punit Pandey > > > > Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM > > Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > > > > > > Dear Suresh ji, > > > > Please see your post (/message/30047). I quote - > > > > 1. " In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical. " > > 2. " Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel. " > > 3. " When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising. " > > > > Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method " most often " and the study found that the method doesn't work. Please see the file section and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. That is the reason I say that we should not " blindly " follow even Stalwarts. Your opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them " blindly " which also means following incorrect methods. > > > > What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of available methods. People who are marketing their methods for a long time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_suresh@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Punitji, > > I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji,s forty years experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. > > Suresh Hattangadi > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 The most simple way I suggest for BTR if within 5 minutes + - is to note the RP's with only 4 Planets Basic LSRD (Excluding Asc.Starlord in RP), If the recorded birth time ascendant sublord appears in these 4 RP's then the BT is right otherwise shift plus minus one planet from one of the RP's to correct the same and adjust birth time accordingly. This involves minimum of labour, time, avoidance of brain axcersising or confusions with many planets or almost all. Where more than 5 minutes + - difference is suspected by the native, then also use more one planet from the RP's to change the StarLord if necessary. If one is not satisfied with above , then After doing this, some traditional rules may be applied on this newly arrived at Birth time, to confirm the same. But this would not be necessary actually. regards/Bhaskar. , Punit Pandey <punitp wrote: > > Dear Suprakash ji, > > I do not understand how you will use point 'a' to 'h' in case of > ascendnat-moon connection rule? > > Does it mean that - > > Ascedant sub lord can be > 0) moon's star > a) in the star of Moon's star > b) in sub of Moon's star > c) in sign Moon's star > c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa [this is not KP, so > ignoring this] > d) Ascendant sub conjoins Moon's star > e) A third planet is in orb of ascedant sub and moon's star > f) ascendant sub aspects moon's star (vedic) > g) moon's star aspects ascedant sub (vedic) > f) ascendant sub aspects moon's star (vedic) > g) moon's star aspects ascedant sub (vedic) > > If my understanding is correct, at least in the case of ascendant-moon rule > it doesn't make sense because one of the above condition will be always > going to be satisfied. So many rule, makes almost any time correct. You have > mentioned so many conditions. > > Thanks & Regards, > > Punit Pandey > > > On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Suprakash Ghosh < > suprakash.ghosh wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Punitji > > > > *Collection of reliable birth data* : we need to have connection with > > nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of > > first cry. > > > > *As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if :* > > > > a) A in star of B and B in star of A > > b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A > > c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A > > c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa > > d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc) > > e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is > > inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C > > f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb) > > g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb) > > h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified > > orb) > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Suprakash > > > > > > > > - > > ** Punit Pandey <punitp > > *To:* > > *Sent:* Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM > > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > > > > Dear Suprakash ji, > > > > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and > > better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you > > want to do it? > > > > > > > > > > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please > > suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of > > connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your > > suggestions incorporated. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh < > > suprakash.ghosh wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Dear Punit ji > >> > >> Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the > >> basic conditions assumed during the test. > >> Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the > >> genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been > >> analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is > >> that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between > >> moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt > >> conjunction.Was all the charts analysed in this way? > >> > >> If not, then the test has no relevance. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Suprakash > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> ** Punit Pandey <punitp > >> *To:* > >> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM > >> *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time? > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear Suresh ji, > >> > >> Please see your post ( > >> /message/30047). I quote - > >> > >> 1. " In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as > >> well as logical. " > >> 2. " Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the > >> wheel. " > >> 3. " When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited > >> and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research > >> on the subject is surprising. " > >> > >> *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method " most often " and the > >> study found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section > >> and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but > >> what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the > >> reason I say that we should not " blindly " follow even Stalwarts.* Your > >> opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following > >> them " blindly " which also means following incorrect methods. > >> > >> *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of > >> available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long > >> time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may > >> not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of > >> KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating > >> in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum > >> loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must > >> participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we > >> will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. > >> > >> Thanks & Regards, > >> > >> Punit Pandey > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_sureshwrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear Punitji, > >>> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not > >>> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But > >>> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji,s forty years > >>> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his > >>> experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be > >>> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently > >>> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. > >>> Suresh Hattangadi > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Dear Bhaskar, You have not understood K.P. correctly.... For understanding K.P priciples/rules etc., first,you should unlearn Traditional Astrology...then study K.P., books with an unbiased and uncluttered mind,and understand it properly...not with the objective of pointing out what is wrong... Neither I, nor any book on K.P., has claimed that there is only 1 method of retification of Birth Time...if you read for example,Astrosecrets & K.P., by K.Subramaniam,especially the chapter on Rectification of Birth time..many methods are given... I suggest you study them... I also draw your attention to the latest book Astrosecrets & K.P., Part IV...where these methods are discussed with examples...and then apply them carefully and then discuss the subject with me at length... However, a majority of K.P. practitioners depend heavily on the Ruling Planets method... Till then,wish you the very best, Yogesh Lajmi.. Yogesh Lajmi. Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Sun, 27 December, 2009 10:22:32 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Already the Astrologers are a very respected lot in society, and you will bring more respect on them with this excersise ?Now astrologers will sit in front of delivery rooms and then note the time of cry every time the expectant mother is taken to the delivery room ? Is this the state we have been brought down to,as being suggested ? Good.Then what is the point of discussion of rectification methods and such topics, if only the first cry is going to constitute the time of Birth, then who has checked our cry and the cries of rest of us ? And what is the sense of doing astrology if this is the way we are going to go about checking matters ? This means that we must do all physical checking before pronouncing whether a mother will have child or not, we must ask her to get medical reports of her having got impregnated and become pregnant ? Why? What is the astrologer for ? This means we must check for a girl who is asking whether she will have love marriage or not- every evening go where she goes, whom she meets, how much love is there between her and the boy, before pronouncing LOve marriage to her ? Then what is the astrologer doing astrology for ?Why does a good astrologer need external help for all this ? Why cant the study be so good that one does not need all this parepharnalia to predict ? If you are told the time of the first cry, only then you will be able to predict in detail about that child? Otherwise not ? What type of astrology are we into ?And after having known the time of the first cry, do You think whatever you predict will be right ?Boss this is not astrology. An astrologer needs to speak to no one. He must be efficient enough to get the answers on his own by his power of discriminations and his Panchanga, Pen and paper. Bhaskar.@gro ups.com, "Suprakash Ghosh" <suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Punitji> > Collection of reliable birth data : we need to have connection with nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of first cry.> > As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if :> > a) A in star of B and B in star of A> b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A> c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A > c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa> d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc)> e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C> f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb)> g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb)> h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified orb)> > > > Regards> > Suprakash> > > - > Punit Pandey > @gro ups.com > Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM> Re: What is the correct birth time?> > > > > Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you want to do it?> > > > > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your suggestions incorporated. > > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > > > Dear Punit ji> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the basic conditions assumed during the test.> Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way? > > If not, then the test has no relevance.> > Regards> > Suprakash> > > - > Punit Pandey > @gro ups.com > Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> Re: What is the correct birth time?> > > > > Dear Suresh ji,> > Please see your post (http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical."> 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel."> 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising."> > Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study found that the method doesn't work. Please see the file section and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. That is the reason I say that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts. Your opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly" which also means following incorrect methods. > > What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of available methods. People who are marketing their methods for a long time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. > > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .> wrote:> > > Dear Punitji,> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. > Suresh Hattangadi> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Sirs, I was expecting this from Your goodself. Well, the reprimand is taken in good spirits. My intentions were never to claim that there is only 1 method mentioned in the books. Neither do I negate any method, except pointing out the inpracticality of certain methods which are a wee bit difficult to pursue in real Life, but which look good in writing. I am also not having any intentions of pointing out any mistakes in the books. thanks and regards, Bhaskar. Bombay. INDIA. --- On Sun, 27/12/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmiRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Cc: "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotishSunday, 27 December, 2009, 9:32 PM Dear Bhaskar, You have not understood K.P. correctly.... For understanding K.P priciples/rules etc., first,you should unlearn Traditional Astrology...then study K.P., books with an unbiased and uncluttered mind,and understand it properly...not with the objective of pointing out what is wrong... Neither I, nor any book on K.P., has claimed that there is only 1 method of retification of Birth Time...if you read for example,Astrosecrets & K.P., by K.Subramaniam,especially the chapter on Rectification of Birth time..many methods are given... I suggest you study them... I also draw your attention to the latest book Astrosecrets & K.P., Part IV...where these methods are discussed with examples...and then apply them carefully and then discuss the subject with me at length... However, a majority of K.P. practitioners depend heavily on the Ruling Planets method... Till then,wish you the very best, Yogesh Lajmi.. Yogesh Lajmi. Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Sun, 27 December, 2009 10:22:32 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Already the Astrologers are a very respected lot in society, and you will bring more respect on them with this excersise ?Now astrologers will sit in front of delivery rooms and then note the time of cry every time the expectant mother is taken to the delivery room ? Is this the state we have been brought down to,as being suggested ? Good.Then what is the point of discussion of rectification methods and such topics, if only the first cry is going to constitute the time of Birth, then who has checked our cry and the cries of rest of us ? And what is the sense of doing astrology if this is the way we are going to go about checking matters ? This means that we must do all physical checking before pronouncing whether a mother will have child or not, we must ask her to get medical reports of her having got impregnated and become pregnant ? Why? What is the astrologer for ? This means we must check for a girl who is asking whether she will have love marriage or not- every evening go where she goes, whom she meets, how much love is there between her and the boy, before pronouncing LOve marriage to her ? Then what is the astrologer doing astrology for ?Why does a good astrologer need external help for all this ? Why cant the study be so good that one does not need all this parepharnalia to predict ? If you are told the time of the first cry, only then you will be able to predict in detail about that child? Otherwise not ? What type of astrology are we into ?And after having known the time of the first cry, do You think whatever you predict will be right ?Boss this is not astrology. An astrologer needs to speak to no one. He must be efficient enough to get the answers on his own by his power of discriminations and his Panchanga, Pen and paper. Bhaskar.@gro ups.com, "Suprakash Ghosh" <suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Punitji> > Collection of reliable birth data : we need to have connection with nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of first cry.> > As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if :> > a) A in star of B and B in star of A> b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A> c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A > c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa> d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc)> e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C> f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb)> g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb)> h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified orb)> > > > Regards> > Suprakash> > > - > Punit Pandey > @gro ups.com > Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM> Re: What is the correct birth time?> > > > > Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you want to do it?> > > > > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your suggestions incorporated. > > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > > > Dear Punit ji> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the basic conditions assumed during the test.> Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way? > > If not, then the test has no relevance.> > Regards> > Suprakash> > > - > Punit Pandey > @gro ups.com > Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> Re: What is the correct birth time?> > > > > Dear Suresh ji,> > Please see your post (http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical."> 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel."> 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising."> > Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study found that the method doesn't work. Please see the file section and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. That is the reason I say that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts. Your opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly" which also means following incorrect methods. > > What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of available methods. People who are marketing their methods for a long time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. > > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .> wrote:> > > Dear Punitji,> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. > Suresh Hattangadi> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Senthilji Pranam,very good presentation to prove your "point".thanks for your detailed explanation,.regardsPeace and Prosperity to All !!VGR--- On Sun, 27/12/09, Senthil <athi_ram wrote:Senthil <athi_ramRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Cc: subhash_ektare, punitp, lyrastro1, tw853, vgr_pavan1Date: Sunday, 27 December, 2009, 1:20 AM Dear Subhash Ektare, My replies are as given below. //I agree with you that according to BTR Rule under consideration (Mr. Shanmugam's rule and subsequently modified by Lajmi ji)), for all births on a particular Moon star day......... .Asc sub lord should be only one i.e. Sun, Moon etc depending on star lord of the Moon. This is not true in all cases, is a fact........but possibility cannot be denied logically. // From your statement can understand that for the entire world the birth ascendant Sub lord always happen to be MOON star lord!!!!. But there is no possibility in it. You can see the study of AA rated charts as mentioned by Tin win in his various E-mails. For any RULEs we can always bring and present few charts to statisfy the required % as per our wish because in INDIA itself more than 100 crore people are available and getting charts is not a big deal. Even you can always do the same RBT exercise for the all AA rated charts presented by Tin win & others kept in our files section and same % may be brought. What is the point in it??? //In the table of sub, I could not understand the calculations for Diff. in Deg and Duration columns. So cannot comment.// Diff. in Deg = Start of Next Same Sub- End of Current Same Sub=(No Birth Zone) Duration for No Birth Zone = Diff. in Deg X 4 Min I have noticed the ERROR in the Diff. in deg & duration for the last SUB of each planet except KET in my previous table which i have corrected and shown in BLUE color (Refer below given new part Table). For Example take SUN sub (1st KET sub End) = 00:46:40 (2nd KET sub Start) = 25:53:20 Diff. in Deg = 25:53:20 - 00:46:40 =25:06:40(=No Birth Zone) Duration = 25:06:40 * 4 min = 01:40:27 Hrs(No Birth Zone time range) //Possibility of Ascendant appearing in one sub earlier or one sub later than the position of Moon is 3/249 (three out of 249 subs) which is equal to 1.20% only. // what you have taken is for 360 deg 249 subs.This is a simple math calculation. Here you have to take within one No Birth Zone. If you see the Duration/time wise can understand it well. Take any birth happened in No Birth zone(that is ascendant Sub is not Moon Star).What you are going to do in RBT? Simply shift the ascendant to Birth Zone such that the time correction is very minimum/least. Let us take the Maximum & minimum No birth zone of each Sub lord(Kindly note that the additional row in BLUE color text is the corrected value compated to the table given earlier-Regret inconvenience caused) (Sub wise - part Table). Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 09:40:00 00:38:40 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 22:53:20 01:31:33 The least No birth Zone is 09:00:00 Deg (00:36:00 hrs) in VEN. The highest No birth Zone is 25:20:00 Deg (01:41:20 hrs) in SUN. Case:1(Minimum -Worst Case) ============ ========= = Assume a birth happened when the MOON is in VEN star and ascendant is at the mid of No birth Zone ( that is 04:30:00 Deg) simply you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 00:18:00 hrs (+ or - 18 minute) correction which is the least possibility. For VEN, the error possibility is equal to 50% (18/36) the correction required is (+/- 18min) Case:2(Maximum -Worst Case) ============ ========= == Assume a birth happened when the MOON is in SUN star and ascendant is at the mid of No birth Zone ( that is 12:40:00 Deg) simply you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 00:50:40 hrs (+ or - 51 minute) correction which is the least possibility. For SUN, the error possibility is equal to 50% (51/101) the correction required is (+/- 51min) All Cases ======= When the MOON is in particular star,Consider only the births which are happened in No birth Zone and ascendants of those births are in a range(that is at the start of No Birth Zone to mid of No birth Zone).Simple you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 0 Min to half of the No birth Zone duration. The error possibility is equal to 0% to 50%( that is 00:00:00 Deg to 12:40:00 Deg ). For which the correction required is (+/- 0 to 51min) ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ***** So now you can select the charts as per your wish and present it. This is what you have done in the attached file. You have selected 50 charts and Justfying 86% for +/-30 minute correction. See the part table what you have given. Time when Asc sub=Moon Str and Asc sub-sub=Moon sub Within 5 Min +/- Within 10 Min +/- Within 15 Min +/- Within 20 Min +/- Within 25 Min +/- Within 30 Min +/- Beyond 30 Min +/- Total Cases 15 8 7 7 4 2 7 Within +/-30min 43 (86%) within +/-25min 41 (82%) within+/- 20min 37 (74%) within +/-15min 30 (60%) within +/- 10min 23 (46%) Within +/- 5min 15 (30%) Kindly note that in the above table "Beyond 30 min" column will never exceed 51min (Maximum case) so we can call it "Beyond 30 min upto 51min" You have selected 50 charts and showing actually 30% to 86% is ERRORS ONLY(by using the RBT rule). Today I really learned from you, how to FOOL the innocents (even clever) by showing one mathematical comparison table. I don’t have any personal feelings with any of our forum members including Shri Lajmi. I am opposing the RULE only. Just because of this one RULE we can’t underestimate anybody. Shri Lajmi is one of the JAMBAVAN (Senior most member age/experience wise) of this forum who has got vast knowledge in astrology and contributes lot to this forum members and I really appreciate it. His cooperation for VGR’s RBT exercise is highly respected. I don’t have much energy to talk on this subject anymore and let us work together with VGR for the RBT exercise to find the way forward. Note to VGR ========= Dear VGR can you please post the Quiz details for the members to participate. GOOD LUCK!! D.Senthil --- On Sat, 12/26/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare@ > wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "Senthil" <athi_ram >, punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com, "Mr. Yogesh Rao Lajmi" <lyrastro1 (AT) (DOT) co.in>Saturday, December 26, 2009, 4:10 AM Dear Senthil ji, I agree with you that according to BTR Rule under consideration (Mr. Shanmugam's rule and subsequently modified by Lajmi ji)), for all births on a particular Moon star day......... .Asc sub lord should be only one i.e. Sun, Moon etc depending on star lord of the Moon. This is not true in all cases, is a fact........ but possibility cannot be denied logically. May be a good subject for research. Mr. Lajmi ji uses this BTR method within +/- 30 min from the recorded time. According to me about 86% cases can be rectified within this range complying this rule. Please see attached file. However the birth time so arrived cannot be certified as correct/accurate unless VERIFIED. For this, the verification project being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is the only way to find most acceptable method(s). In the table of sub, I could not understand the calculations for Diff. in Deg and Duration columns. So cannot comment. Regarding point raised in URL http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 .......... Possibility of Ascendant appearing in one sub earlier or one sub later than the position of Moon is 3/249 (three out of 249 subs) which is equal to 1.20% only. This can be treated as exception to the rule or in failure percentage of the rule. In my opinion this cannot form the basis for the rejection of the rule. Please note that I am not canvassing this BTR method but opposing the basis for its rejection. As Mr. Punit Pandey has mentioned verification being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is only correct way to select most acceptable method(s) in my humble opinion. Please note that Mr. Lajmi ji is also co-operating and taking part in the process. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comCc: subhash_ektare@ ; punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) comThu, December 24, 2009 11:07:25 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Subhash Ektare, You have put Very Good logical questions and I appreciate your findings. However let me rephrase my statements/question s as given below. If we consider all the places within the band that is from 180W to 180E longitude & 65N to 65S latitude (ignoring the places where the people are not living most likely, example places which are coming on the Ocean/sea etc, - leave the few people who live in the boat/ship or sail etc) at any particular instant/time the entire 360 Degree Zodiac will be always occupied by the ascendants of the various places around the world. As mentioned earlier (Message ID# 29225) consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star and the time taken by the moon to transit the whole SUN star is approximately 29 Hours. If we assume that the MOON enters in the SUN star in a sign (where SUN star is present) on date DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM:SS Hrs GMT (DD-Day, MM-Month, YYYY-Year, HH-Hours, MM-minute, SS-Second) for discussion purpose let us assume the date 25-12-2009 00:00:00 GMT (don't see Ephemeris & ask next question there is no SUN star in this day) and if we take each and every people living places on the earth they will have transit of ascendant starting from Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 00:00:00 hrs GMT to next day Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 05:00:00 hrs GMT. For example, Places in INDIA which falls in 82.5Deg longitude irrespective of latitude consider the transit of ascendant from 25-12-2009 05:30:00 Hrs LMT to next day 26-12-2009 10:30:00 Hrs LMT Local mean time (LMT) Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Now out of this 29 Hrs duration, the childbirth can happen ONLY when the ascendant is transiting in CHILDBIRTH ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to sub lord is SUN) and there will not be any childbirth for the balance NO BIRTH TIME ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to any other sub lord except SUN). Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Based on this if we workout the told childbirth for the 29 Hours duration approximately we will get 426560 births (at the rate of 353,015 births per day as per 2009 record given in Message ID#29164). The entire 426560 birth charts will have only SUN sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than SUN sub (that is, KET, VEN, MOO, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER). Similarly for next block of succeeding 29(say) hours the entire 426560 birth charts will have only MOO sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than MOO sub (that is KET, VEN, SUN, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER) because the MOO must have moved to the next star that it’s own star (MOON star). This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world as well as there should not be any other planets happened to be the ascendant Sub lord except the one (Moon Star lord) within the block of time (29 Hours). IS THIS POSSIBLE???? Secondly, let us look at the Table given below (Sorted in Ascending Order Sub wise for the first 120 Deg of the Zodiac) Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 18 RA1 MAR VEN KET 25:53:20 26:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 27 RA2 VEN SUN KET 37:00:00 37:46:40 11:53:20 00:47:33 35 RA2 VEN MOO KET 49:40:00 50:26:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 43 RA3 MER MAR KET 61:53:20 62:40:00 11:46:40 00:47:07 51 RA3 MER RAH KET 74:26:40 75:13:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 59 RA3 MER JUP KET 85:46:40 86:33:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 76 RA4 MOO MER KET 108:33:20 109:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 2 RA1 MAR KET VEN 00:46:40 03:00:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 28 RA2 VEN SUN VEN 37:46:40 40:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 36 RA2 VEN MOO VEN 50:26:40 52:40:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 44 RA3 MER MAR VEN 62:40:00 64:53:20 10:20:00 00:41:20 52 RA3 MER RAH VEN 75:13:20 77:26:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 60 RA3 MER JUP VEN 86:33:20 88:46:40 09:20:00 00:37:20 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 08:26:40 00:33:47 3 RA1 MAR KET SUN 03:00:00 03:40:00 11:53:20 00:47:33 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 37 RA2 VEN MOO SUN 52:40:00 53:20:00 11:33:20 00:46:13 45 RA3 MER MAR SUN 64:53:20 65:33:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 53 RA3 MER RAH SUN 77:26:40 78:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 61 RA3 MER JUP SUN 88:46:40 89:26:40 10:53:20 00:43:33 70 RA4 MOO SAT SUN 100:20:00 101:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 07:46:40 00:31:07 4 RA1 MAR KET MOO 03:40:00 04:46:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 20 RA1 MAR SUN MOO 27:20:00 28:26:40 11:33:20 00:46:13 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 46 RA3 MER MAR MOO 65:33:20 66:40:00 11:26:40 00:45:47 54 RA3 MER RAH MOO 78:06:40 79:13:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 62 RA3 MER JUP MOO 89:26:40 90:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 63 RA4 MOO JUP MOO 90:00:00 90:33:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 71 RA4 MOO SAT MOO 101:00:00 102:06:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 06:40:00 00:26:40 5 RA1 MAR KET MAR 04:46:40 05:33:20 11:46:40 00:47:07 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 21 RA1 MAR SUN MAR 28:26:40 29:13:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 30 RA2 VEN MOO MAR 41:06:40 41:53:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 55 RA3 MER RAH MAR 79:13:20 80:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 64 RA4 MOO JUP MAR 90:33:20 91:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 72 RA4 MOO SAT MAR 102:06:40 102:53:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 05:53:20 00:23:33 6 RA1 MAR KET RAH 05:33:20 07:33:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 22 RA1 MAR SUN RAH 29:13:20 30:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 23 RA2 VEN SUN RAH 30:00:00 31:13:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 31 RA2 VEN MOO RAH 41:53:20 43:53:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 39 RA2 VEN MAR RAH 54:06:40 56:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 65 RA4 MOO JUP RAH 91:20:00 93:20:00 09:33:20 00:38:13 73 RA4 MOO SAT RAH 102:53:20 104:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 03:53:20 00:15:33 7 RA1 MAR KET JUP 07:33:20 09:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 24 RA2 VEN SUN JUP 31:13:20 33:00:00 10:53:20 00:43:33 32 RA2 VEN MOO JUP 43:53:20 45:40:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 40 RA2 VEN MAR JUP 56:06:40 57:53:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 48 RA3 MER RAH JUP 68:40:00 70:26:40 09:33:20 00:38:13 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 74 RA4 MOO SAT JUP 104:53:20 106:40:00 09:26:40 00:37:47 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 02:06:40 00:08:27 8 RA1 MAR KET SAT 09:20:00 11:26:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 25 RA2 VEN SUN SAT 33:00:00 35:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 33 RA2 VEN MOO SAT 45:40:00 47:46:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 41 RA2 VEN MAR SAT 57:53:20 60:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 49 RA3 MER RAH SAT 70:26:40 72:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 57 RA3 MER JUP SAT 81:46:40 83:53:20 09:26:40 00:37:47 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 9 RA1 MAR KET MER 11:26:40 13:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 26 RA2 VEN SUN MER 35:06:40 37:00:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 34 RA2 VEN MOO MER 47:46:40 49:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 42 RA3 MER MAR MER 60:00:00 61:53:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 50 RA3 MER RAH MER 72:33:20 74:26:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 58 RA3 MER JUP MER 83:53:20 85:46:40 09:40:00 00:38:40 67 RA4 MOO SAT MER 95:26:40 97:20:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 Let us consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star as mentioned above with the position (say 27:20:00 SUN Star MOO-Sub). The Balance degree in the star works out to 12:40:00. So the ascendant for all the places around the world will complete one full circle that is 360 Degree at the same time the MOON might have completed 11 Degree only with balance of 1:40:00 in the same star. Whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range for about 25:20:00 Degrees corresponding to 01:41:20 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 19 - maximum case) and 07:46:40 Degrees corresponding to 00:31:07 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 78 - minimum case) there should not be any birth to happen in those places except other locations where the ascendant is not closer to the MOON position within the proximity range. This means that for any birth chart the ascendant and MOON position will never be conjoined within this 25:20:00 Degrees (Max. Case) to 07:46:40 Degrees (Min case) orb except the special case Rapt Conjunction (0 to 00:40:00 Deg) when the MOON is in the same star & Sub (say SUN Star SUN Sub). This indicates that there is always an offset in the birth time for about 00:31:07 hrs to 01:41:20 hrs except for the Special case. This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range except other places. IS THIS POSSIBLE???? For Example: How will you fix BTR for the person born with CANCER, SCRPIO, PIECES Moon sign with JUP as STAR lord & RAH as sub whose ascendant also in the same Sign-star-sub or just one sub offset (plus+ or minus-) position? (This point was already raised in the below mentioned URL) http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 Hr.No. Sgn:Str:Sub Degree 56 MER:JUP:JUP 080:00:00 57 MER:JUP:SAT 081:46:40 58 MER:JUP:MER 083:53:20 59 MER:JUP:KET 085:46:40 60 MER:JUP:VEN 086:33:20 61 MER:JUP:SUN 088:46:40 62 MER:JUP:MOO 089:26:40 63 MOO:JUP:MOO 090:00:00 64 MOO:JUP:MAR 090:33:20 65 MOO:JUP:RAH 091:20:00 66 MOO:SAT:SAT 093:20:00 67 MOO:SAT:MER 095:26:40 68 MOO:SAT:KET 097:20:00 69 MOO:SAT:VEN 098:06:40 70 MOO:SAT:SUN 100:20:00 71 MOO:SAT:MOO 101:00:00 72 MOO:SAT:MAR 102:06:40 73 MOO:SAT:RAH 102:53:20 74 MOO:SAT:JUP 104:53:20 If we look at the sub table (given above), Suppose the birth (Natal) chart moon position is in MOO-JUP-RAH (the degree is 91:20:00) then as per the rule one can fix the ascendant either in MER-JUP-JUP( the degree is 80:00:00) or in MOO-SAT-JUP( the degree is 104:53:20). The highest difference is 13.5 deg (say), which will give roughly 54min time offset. As per this no birth should happen in this time zone in those places. How this is correct? Request PUNIT/members to come to the conclusion whether to REJECT this Rule (which I have REJRCTED already) or Keep this Rule for further study (Personally I don’t find any scope/logic in this RULE to retain or to continue). If we don’t REJECT/ ELIMINATE this Rule now, then till the end of our last breath including our followers/beginners will be discussing about ‘N’ numbers of RBT rules and only more confusion can arise and solution may not be reached. We have to eliminate one by one and keep few/minimum RBT rules that may work well. For this our VGR has started some exercise request members to participate to find the way forward. I salute Mr.Subhash Ektare for raising very good logical question who made me to think further deep in the subject matter and to present this in appropriate manner. While doing this study have found some interesting things which I don’t want to rise now to avoid diverting the present topic before closing it. Note to Punit: ======== This message may get truncated after some time due to 64KB size limit. Please advise how to retain the message contents.(may be uploaded in Studies folder any other way?) My personal opinion is that each topic must be closed with some extend to move on the next topic but for this member’s support/contributio n is essential otherwise the purpose of discussion will be lost or held at midway. GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Wed, 12/23/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare@ > wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comWednesday, December 23, 2009, 7:17 AM Dear Senthil ji/Misra ji and Members, Please excuse me for the interference. I missed these messages because I was travelling during that time and so could not comment. First, let it be clear that I am not a propagator of the Theory "Asc sub=Moon Star etc" nor I want to comment on it. Secondly I have no personal grudge against any member. Mr. Senthil ji has given very nice, mathematically perfect presentation! ! Hats off to him. However I cannot to conclusion drawn, for following reasons. (Please refer message # 29225) 1. It is assumed that Sun Sub (which is lasting for 1h:25m:20 s) is acting simultaneously in whole world. And for remaining 27h:34m:40s there is no Sun sub acting anywhere in the world. This is possible only when exact same degree of Ascendant rises all over the world at a given time which is impossible. 2. Total No Birth Time Zone ( 22h;48m in the case of Sun sub) calculated will be applicable for the place where Ascendant movement for the period of about 29 hours is surveyed. In fact during this so called Total No Birth Time Zone.......at many other places in the world Sun sub for the Ascendant will be acting at some time or the other. Request senior members to correct me if I am wrong. Actually what Mr. VGR Pavan is doing is correct way of verifying which BTR method is consistent enough to be accepted. I appeal all members to participate and make it a success. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 4:26:35 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Misra, Please go through the link given below then you can understand yourself. http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29217 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29225 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 9596 GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com> wrote: Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com>Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comTuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:44 AM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Dear Members,//From your statement can understand that for the entire world the birth ascendant Sub lord always happen to be MOON star lord!!!!. But there is no possibility in it.//Mr. Senthil ji has probably not read full sentence......the first part of sentence says "This is not true in all cases, is a fact" //You can see the study of AA rated charts as mentioned by Tin win in his various E-mails. For any RULEs we can always bring and present few charts to statisfy the required % as per our wish because in INDIA itself more than 100 crore people are available and getting charts is not a big deal. Even you can always do the same RBT exercise for the all AA rated charts presented by Tin win & others kept in our files section and same % may be brought. What is the point in it???//Does this mean that any analysis based on actual charts is always fabricated? To suit the conclusions one wants to put forth? Then what shall be the basis of research? This is serious allegation against all researchers.The table of Subs given by Mr Senthil ji is for a particular place. Thus so called "No Birth Zone" will naturally be for that particular place only, and not for entire world. Because during that "No Birth Zone" places will exist (on whole earth) where Asc sub will be Moon star lord. In my opinion it is impossible to calculate "No Birth Zone" for world as a whole.//what you have taken is for 360 deg 249 subs.This is a simple math calculation. Here you have to take within one No Birth Zone. If you see the Duration/time wise can understand it well.//Point raised was for complete zodiac (360 deg) because it has mentioned Moon position in Cancer/Scorpio/Pisces...........not in "No Birth Zone". Hence it was logical to find percentage compared to 249 subs.//You have selected 50 charts and showing actually 30% to 86% is ERRORS ONLY(by using the RBT rule). Today I really learned from you, how to FOOL the innocents (even clever) by showing one mathematical comparison table.//Mr. Senthil's way of looking to the fact is different than me. I see the glass half full while he sees it half empty. I am sure the members are intelligent enough to decide who is FOOLING the innocents.I also do not have time and energy to continue this subject but I felt I should let the members know my views.RegardsSubhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram Cc: subhash_ektare; punitp; lyrastro1; tw853; vgr_pavan1Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 11:50:32 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time?Dear Subhash Ektare, My replies are as given below. //I agree with you that according to BTR Rule under consideration (Mr. Shanmugam's rule and subsequently modified by Lajmi ji)), for all births on a particular Moon star day..........Asc sub lord should be only one i.e. Sun, Moon etc depending on star lord of the Moon. This is not true in all cases, is a fact........but possibility cannot be denied logically. // From your statement can understand that for the entire world the birth ascendant Sub lord always happen to be MOON star lord!!!!. But there is no possibility in it. You can see the study of AA rated charts as mentioned by Tin win in his various E-mails. For any RULEs we can always bring and present few charts to statisfy the required % as per our wish because in INDIA itself more than 100 crore people are available and getting charts is not a big deal. Even you can always do the same RBT exercise for the all AA rated charts presented by Tin win & others kept in our files section and same % may be brought. What is the point in it??? //In the table of sub, I could not understand the calculations for Diff. in Deg and Duration columns. So cannot comment.// Diff. in Deg = Start of Next Same Sub- End of Current Same Sub=(No Birth Zone) Duration for No Birth Zone = Diff. in Deg X 4 Min I have noticed the ERROR in the Diff. in deg & duration for the last SUB of each planet except KET in my previous table which i have corrected and shown in BLUE color (Refer below given new part Table). For Example take SUN sub (1st KET sub End) = 00:46:40 (2nd KET sub Start) = 25:53:20 Diff. in Deg = 25:53:20 - 00:46:40 =25:06:40(=No Birth Zone) Duration = 25:06:40 * 4 min = 01:40:27 Hrs(No Birth Zone time range) //Possibility of Ascendant appearing in one sub earlier or one sub later than the position of Moon is 3/249 (three out of 249 subs) which is equal to 1.20% only. // what you have taken is for 360 deg 249 subs.This is a simple math calculation. Here you have to take within one No Birth Zone. If you see the Duration/time wise can understand it well. Take any birth happened in No Birth zone(that is ascendant Sub is not Moon Star).What you are going to do in RBT? Simply shift the ascendant to Birth Zone such that the time correction is very minimum/least. Let us take the Maximum & minimum No birth zone of each Sub lord(Kindly note that the additional row in BLUE color text is the corrected value compated to the table given earlier-Regret inconvenience caused) (Sub wise - part Table). Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 09:40:00 00:38:40 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 22:53:20 01:31:33 The least No birth Zone is 09:00:00 Deg (00:36:00 hrs) in VEN. The highest No birth Zone is 25:20:00 Deg (01:41:20 hrs) in SUN. Case:1(Minimum -Worst Case) ====================== Assume a birth happened when the MOON is in VEN star and ascendant is at the mid of No birth Zone ( that is 04:30:00 Deg) simply you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 00:18:00 hrs (+ or - 18 minute) correction which is the least possibility. For VEN, the error possibility is equal to 50% (18/36) the correction required is (+/- 18min) Case:2(Maximum -Worst Case) ======================= Assume a birth happened when the MOON is in SUN star and ascendant is at the mid of No birth Zone ( that is 12:40:00 Deg) simply you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 00:50:40 hrs (+ or - 51 minute) correction which is the least possibility. For SUN, the error possibility is equal to 50% (51/101) the correction required is (+/- 51min) All Cases ======= When the MOON is in particular star,Consider only the births which are happened in No birth Zone and ascendants of those births are in a range(that is at the start of No Birth Zone to mid of No birth Zone).Simple you have to shift ascendant to Birth Zone with 0 Min to half of the No birth Zone duration. The error possibility is equal to 0% to 50%( that is 00:00:00 Deg to 12:40:00 Deg ). For which the correction required is (+/- 0 to 51min) ************************************************************************************************** So now you can select the charts as per your wish and present it. This is what you have done in the attached file. You have selected 50 charts and Justfying 86% for +/-30 minute correction. See the part table what you have given. Time when Asc sub=Moon Str and Asc sub-sub=Moon sub Within 5 Min +/- Within 10 Min +/- Within 15 Min +/- Within 20 Min +/- Within 25 Min +/- Within 30 Min +/- Beyond 30 Min +/- Total Cases 15 8 7 7 4 2 7 Within +/-30min 43 (86%) within +/-25min 41 (82%) within+/- 20min 37 (74%) within +/-15min 30 (60%) within +/- 10min 23 (46%) Within +/- 5min 15 (30%) Kindly note that in the above table "Beyond 30 min" column will never exceed 51min (Maximum case) so we can call it "Beyond 30 min upto 51min" You have selected 50 charts and showing actually 30% to 86% is ERRORS ONLY(by using the RBT rule). Today I really learned from you, how to FOOL the innocents (even clever) by showing one mathematical comparison table. I don’t have any personal feelings with any of our forum members including Shri Lajmi. I am opposing the RULE only. Just because of this one RULE we can’t underestimate anybody. Shri Lajmi is one of the JAMBAVAN (Senior most member age/experience wise) of this forum who has got vast knowledge in astrology and contributes lot to this forum members and I really appreciate it. His cooperation for VGR’s RBT exercise is highly respected. I don’t have much energy to talk on this subject anymore and let us work together with VGR for the RBT exercise to find the way forward. Note to VGR ========= Dear VGR can you please post the Quiz details for the members to participate. GOOD LUCK!! D.Senthil --- On Sat, 12/26/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektareRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Cc: "Senthil" <athi_ram, punitp, "Mr. Yogesh Rao Lajmi" <lyrastro1Saturday, December 26, 2009, 4:10 AM Dear Senthil ji, I agree with you that according to BTR Rule under consideration (Mr. Shanmugam's rule and subsequently modified by Lajmi ji)), for all births on a particular Moon star day..........Asc sub lord should be only one i.e. Sun, Moon etc depending on star lord of the Moon. This is not true in all cases, is a fact........but possibility cannot be denied logically. May be a good subject for research. Mr. Lajmi ji uses this BTR method within +/- 30 min from the recorded time. According to me about 86% cases can be rectified within this range complying this rule. Please see attached file. However the birth time so arrived cannot be certified as correct/accurate unless VERIFIED. For this, the verification project being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is the only way to find most acceptable method(s). In the table of sub, I could not understand the calculations for Diff. in Deg and Duration columns. So cannot comment. Regarding point raised in URL /message/28959 .......... Possibility of Ascendant appearing in one sub earlier or one sub later than the position of Moon is 3/249 (three out of 249 subs) which is equal to 1.20% only. This can be treated as exception to the rule or in failure percentage of the rule. In my opinion this cannot form the basis for the rejection of the rule. Please note that I am not canvassing this BTR method but opposing the basis for its rejection. As Mr. Punit Pandey has mentioned verification being done by Mr. VGR Pavan is only correct way to select most acceptable method(s) in my humble opinion. Please note that Mr. Lajmi ji is also co-operating and taking part in the process. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram Cc: subhash_ektare; punitpSent: Thu, December 24, 2009 11:07:25 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Subhash Ektare, You have put Very Good logical questions and I appreciate your findings. However let me rephrase my statements/questions as given below. If we consider all the places within the band that is from 180W to 180E longitude & 65N to 65S latitude (ignoring the places where the people are not living most likely, example places which are coming on the Ocean/sea etc, - leave the few people who live in the boat/ship or sail etc) at any particular instant/time the entire 360 Degree Zodiac will be always occupied by the ascendants of the various places around the world. As mentioned earlier (Message ID# 29225) consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star and the time taken by the moon to transit the whole SUN star is approximately 29 Hours. If we assume that the MOON enters in the SUN star in a sign (where SUN star is present) on date DD-MM-YYYY HH:MM:SS Hrs GMT (DD-Day, MM-Month, YYYY-Year, HH-Hours, MM-minute, SS-Second) for discussion purpose let us assume the date 25-12-2009 00:00:00 GMT (don't see Ephemeris & ask next question there is no SUN star in this day) and if we take each and every people living places on the earth they will have transit of ascendant starting from Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 00:00:00 hrs GMT to next day Local mean time (LMT) corresponding to 05:00:00 hrs GMT. For example, Places in INDIA which falls in 82.5Deg longitude irrespective of latitude consider the transit of ascendant from 25-12-2009 05:30:00 Hrs LMT to next day 26-12-2009 10:30:00 Hrs LMT Local mean time (LMT) Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Now out of this 29 Hrs duration, the childbirth can happen ONLY when the ascendant is transiting in CHILDBIRTH ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to sub lord is SUN) and there will not be any childbirth for the balance NO BIRTH TIME ZONE (that is the ascendant position corresponding to any other sub lord except SUN). Similarly we can consider for all other places also. Based on this if we workout the told childbirth for the 29 Hours duration approximately we will get 426560 births (at the rate of 353,015 births per day as per 2009 record given in Message ID#29164). The entire 426560 birth charts will have only SUN sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than SUN sub (that is, KET, VEN, MOO, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER). Similarly for next block of succeeding 29(say) hours the entire 426560 birth charts will have only MOO sub as ascendant and not even Single Chart/birth will have other than MOO sub (that is KET, VEN, SUN, MAR, RAH, JUP, SAT & MER) because the MOO must have moved to the next star that it’s own star (MOON star). This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world as well as there should not be any other planets happened to be the ascendant Sub lord except the one (Moon Star lord) within the block of time (29 Hours). IS THIS POSSIBLE???? Secondly, let us look at the Table given below (Sorted in Ascending Order Sub wise for the first 120 Deg of the Zodiac) Hr.No Rasi Sign Star Sub Start End Diff. In Deg. Duration (Hrs) 1 RA1 MAR KET KET 00:00:00 00:46:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 18 RA1 MAR VEN KET 25:53:20 26:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 27 RA2 VEN SUN KET 37:00:00 37:46:40 11:53:20 00:47:33 35 RA2 VEN MOO KET 49:40:00 50:26:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 43 RA3 MER MAR KET 61:53:20 62:40:00 11:46:40 00:47:07 51 RA3 MER RAH KET 74:26:40 75:13:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 59 RA3 MER JUP KET 85:46:40 86:33:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 68 RA4 MOO SAT KET 97:20:00 98:06:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 76 RA4 MOO MER KET 108:33:20 109:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 2 RA1 MAR KET VEN 00:46:40 03:00:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 10 RA1 MAR VEN VEN 13:20:00 15:33:20 22:13:20 01:28:53 28 RA2 VEN SUN VEN 37:46:40 40:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 36 RA2 VEN MOO VEN 50:26:40 52:40:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 44 RA3 MER MAR VEN 62:40:00 64:53:20 10:20:00 00:41:20 52 RA3 MER RAH VEN 75:13:20 77:26:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 60 RA3 MER JUP VEN 86:33:20 88:46:40 09:20:00 00:37:20 69 RA4 MOO SAT VEN 98:06:40 100:20:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 77 RA4 MOO MER VEN 109:20:00 111:33:20 08:26:40 00:33:47 3 RA1 MAR KET SUN 03:00:00 03:40:00 11:53:20 00:47:33 11 RA1 MAR VEN SUN 15:33:20 16:13:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 19 RA1 MAR SUN SUN 26:40:00 27:20:00 25:20:00 01:41:20 37 RA2 VEN MOO SUN 52:40:00 53:20:00 11:33:20 00:46:13 45 RA3 MER MAR SUN 64:53:20 65:33:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 53 RA3 MER RAH SUN 77:26:40 78:06:40 10:40:00 00:42:40 61 RA3 MER JUP SUN 88:46:40 89:26:40 10:53:20 00:43:33 70 RA4 MOO SAT SUN 100:20:00 101:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 78 RA4 MOO MER SUN 111:33:20 112:13:20 07:46:40 00:31:07 4 RA1 MAR KET MOO 03:40:00 04:46:40 11:26:40 00:45:47 12 RA1 MAR VEN MOO 16:13:20 17:20:00 10:00:00 00:40:00 20 RA1 MAR SUN MOO 27:20:00 28:26:40 11:33:20 00:46:13 29 RA2 VEN MOO MOO 40:00:00 41:06:40 24:26:40 01:37:47 46 RA3 MER MAR MOO 65:33:20 66:40:00 11:26:40 00:45:47 54 RA3 MER RAH MOO 78:06:40 79:13:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 62 RA3 MER JUP MOO 89:26:40 90:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 63 RA4 MOO JUP MOO 90:00:00 90:33:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 71 RA4 MOO SAT MOO 101:00:00 102:06:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 79 RA4 MOO MER MOO 112:13:20 113:20:00 06:40:00 00:26:40 5 RA1 MAR KET MAR 04:46:40 05:33:20 11:46:40 00:47:07 13 RA1 MAR VEN MAR 17:20:00 18:06:40 10:20:00 00:41:20 21 RA1 MAR SUN MAR 28:26:40 29:13:20 11:53:20 00:47:33 30 RA2 VEN MOO MAR 41:06:40 41:53:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 38 RA2 VEN MAR MAR 53:20:00 54:06:40 25:06:40 01:40:27 55 RA3 MER RAH MAR 79:13:20 80:00:00 10:33:20 00:42:13 64 RA4 MOO JUP MAR 90:33:20 91:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 72 RA4 MOO SAT MAR 102:06:40 102:53:20 10:26:40 00:41:47 80 RA4 MOO MER MAR 113:20:00 114:06:40 05:53:20 00:23:33 6 RA1 MAR KET RAH 05:33:20 07:33:20 10:33:20 00:42:13 14 RA1 MAR VEN RAH 18:06:40 20:06:40 09:06:40 00:36:27 22 RA1 MAR SUN RAH 29:13:20 30:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 23 RA2 VEN SUN RAH 30:00:00 31:13:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 31 RA2 VEN MOO RAH 41:53:20 43:53:20 10:13:20 00:40:53 39 RA2 VEN MAR RAH 54:06:40 56:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 47 RA3 MER RAH RAH 66:40:00 68:40:00 22:40:00 01:30:40 65 RA4 MOO JUP RAH 91:20:00 93:20:00 09:33:20 00:38:13 73 RA4 MOO SAT RAH 102:53:20 104:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 81 RA4 MOO MER RAH 114:06:40 116:06:40 03:53:20 00:15:33 7 RA1 MAR KET JUP 07:33:20 09:20:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 15 RA1 MAR VEN JUP 20:06:40 21:53:20 09:20:00 00:37:20 24 RA2 VEN SUN JUP 31:13:20 33:00:00 10:53:20 00:43:33 32 RA2 VEN MOO JUP 43:53:20 45:40:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 40 RA2 VEN MAR JUP 56:06:40 57:53:20 10:46:40 00:43:07 48 RA3 MER RAH JUP 68:40:00 70:26:40 09:33:20 00:38:13 56 RA3 MER JUP JUP 80:00:00 81:46:40 23:06:40 01:32:27 74 RA4 MOO SAT JUP 104:53:20 106:40:00 09:26:40 00:37:47 82 RA4 MOO MER JUP 116:06:40 117:53:20 02:06:40 00:08:27 8 RA1 MAR KET SAT 09:20:00 11:26:40 10:26:40 00:41:47 16 RA1 MAR VEN SAT 21:53:20 24:00:00 09:00:00 00:36:00 25 RA2 VEN SUN SAT 33:00:00 35:06:40 10:33:20 00:42:13 33 RA2 VEN MOO SAT 45:40:00 47:46:40 10:06:40 00:40:27 41 RA2 VEN MAR SAT 57:53:20 60:00:00 10:26:40 00:41:47 49 RA3 MER RAH SAT 70:26:40 72:33:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 57 RA3 MER JUP SAT 81:46:40 83:53:20 09:26:40 00:37:47 66 RA4 MOO SAT SAT 93:20:00 95:26:40 22:26:40 01:29:47 83 RA4 MOO MER SAT 117:53:20 120:00:00 00:00:00 00:00:00 9 RA1 MAR KET MER 11:26:40 13:20:00 10:40:00 00:42:40 17 RA1 MAR VEN MER 24:00:00 25:53:20 09:13:20 00:36:53 26 RA2 VEN SUN MER 35:06:40 37:00:00 10:46:40 00:43:07 34 RA2 VEN MOO MER 47:46:40 49:40:00 10:20:00 00:41:20 42 RA3 MER MAR MER 60:00:00 61:53:20 10:40:00 00:42:40 50 RA3 MER RAH MER 72:33:20 74:26:40 09:26:40 00:37:47 58 RA3 MER JUP MER 83:53:20 85:46:40 09:40:00 00:38:40 67 RA4 MOO SAT MER 95:26:40 97:20:00 09:20:00 00:37:20 75 RA4 MOO MER MER 106:40:00 108:33:20 11:26:40 00:45:47 Let us consider that the MOON is occupied in the SUN star as mentioned above with the position (say 27:20:00 SUN Star MOO-Sub). The Balance degree in the star works out to 12:40:00. So the ascendant for all the places around the world will complete one full circle that is 360 Degree at the same time the MOON might have completed 11 Degree only with balance of 1:40:00 in the same star. Whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range for about 25:20:00 Degrees corresponding to 01:41:20 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 19 - maximum case) and 07:46:40 Degrees corresponding to 00:31:07 hrs (refer above table Hr.No 78 - minimum case) there should not be any birth to happen in those places except other locations where the ascendant is not closer to the MOON position within the proximity range. This means that for any birth chart the ascendant and MOON position will never be conjoined within this 25:20:00 Degrees (Max. Case) to 07:46:40 Degrees (Min case) orb except the special case Rapt Conjunction (0 to 00:40:00 Deg) when the MOON is in the same star & Sub (say SUN Star SUN Sub). This indicates that there is always an offset in the birth time for about 00:31:07 hrs to 01:41:20 hrs except for the Special case. This shows that there is a sequence of Birth should happen around the world whenever the ascendant of any place around the world comes closer to the MOON position within the proximity range except other places. IS THIS POSSIBLE???? For Example: How will you fix BTR for the person born with CANCER, SCRPIO, PIECES Moon sign with JUP as STAR lord & RAH as sub whose ascendant also in the same Sign-star-sub or just one sub offset (plus+ or minus-) position? (This point was already raised in the below mentioned URL) /message/28959 Hr.No. Sgn:Str:Sub Degree 56 MER:JUP:JUP 080:00:00 57 MER:JUP:SAT 081:46:40 58 MER:JUP:MER 083:53:20 59 MER:JUP:KET 085:46:40 60 MER:JUP:VEN 086:33:20 61 MER:JUP:SUN 088:46:40 62 MER:JUP:MOO 089:26:40 63 MOO:JUP:MOO 090:00:00 64 MOO:JUP:MAR 090:33:20 65 MOO:JUP:RAH 091:20:00 66 MOO:SAT:SAT 093:20:00 67 MOO:SAT:MER 095:26:40 68 MOO:SAT:KET 097:20:00 69 MOO:SAT:VEN 098:06:40 70 MOO:SAT:SUN 100:20:00 71 MOO:SAT:MOO 101:00:00 72 MOO:SAT:MAR 102:06:40 73 MOO:SAT:RAH 102:53:20 74 MOO:SAT:JUP 104:53:20 If we look at the sub table (given above), Suppose the birth (Natal) chart moon position is in MOO-JUP-RAH (the degree is 91:20:00) then as per the rule one can fix the ascendant either in MER-JUP-JUP(the degree is 80:00:00) or in MOO-SAT-JUP(the degree is 104:53:20). The highest difference is 13.5 deg (say), which will give roughly 54min time offset. As per this no birth should happen in this time zone in those places. How this is correct? Request PUNIT/members to come to the conclusion whether to REJECT this Rule (which I have REJRCTED already) or Keep this Rule for further study (Personally I don’t find any scope/logic in this RULE to retain or to continue). If we don’t REJECT/ ELIMINATE this Rule now, then till the end of our last breath including our followers/beginners will be discussing about ‘N’ numbers of RBT rules and only more confusion can arise and solution may not be reached. We have to eliminate one by one and keep few/minimum RBT rules that may work well. For this our VGR has started some exercise request members to participate to find the way forward. I salute Mr.Subhash Ektare for raising very good logical question who made me to think further deep in the subject matter and to present this in appropriate manner. While doing this study have found some interesting things which I don’t want to rise now to avoid diverting the present topic before closing it. Note to Punit: ======== This message may get truncated after some time due to 64KB size limit. Please advise how to retain the message contents.(may be uploaded in Studies folder any other way?) My personal opinion is that each topic must be closed with some extend to move on the next topic but for this member’s support/contribution is essential otherwise the purpose of discussion will be lost or held at midway. GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Wed, 12/23/09, Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektare wrote: Subhash Ektare <subhash_ektareRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 7:17 AM Dear Senthil ji/Misra ji and Members, Please excuse me for the interference. I missed these messages because I was travelling during that time and so could not comment. First, let it be clear that I am not a propagator of the Theory "Asc sub=Moon Star etc" nor I want to comment on it. Secondly I have no personal grudge against any member. Mr. Senthil ji has given very nice, mathematically perfect presentation! ! Hats off to him. However I cannot to conclusion drawn, for following reasons. (Please refer message # 29225) 1. It is assumed that Sun Sub (which is lasting for 1h:25m:20 s) is acting simultaneously in whole world. And for remaining 27h:34m:40s there is no Sun sub acting anywhere in the world. This is possible only when exact same degree of Ascendant rises all over the world at a given time which is impossible. 2. Total No Birth Time Zone ( 22h;48m in the case of Sun sub) calculated will be applicable for the place where Ascendant movement for the period of about 29 hours is surveyed. In fact during this so called Total No Birth Time Zone.......at many other places in the world Sun sub for the Ascendant will be acting at some time or the other. Request senior members to correct me if I am wrong. Actually what Mr. VGR Pavan is doing is correct way of verifying which BTR method is consistent enough to be accepted. I appeal all members to participate and make it a success. Regards Subhash Ektare Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 4:26:35 PMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Misra, Please go through the link given below then you can understand yourself. http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 28959 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29217 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 29225 http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 9596 GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com> wrote: Dhirendra Nath Misra <dhirendranathmisra@ ymail.com>Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comTuesday, December 22, 2009, 6:44 AM D.Senthil Ji, // Asc Sub= Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Su //Please you may kindly be pleased to make it clear as to why the above rule does apply in most of the cases and it fails in few cases only. With thanks & regards, Dhirendra Nath Misra Senthil <athi_ram >@gro ups.comTue, December 22, 2009 6:09:07 AMRe: Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Lajmi, I will not accept the RULE of Asc Sub = Moon STAR & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub even it is recommended by Prof. KSK. I will say it is a MEANING LESS, NO LOGIC & WASTE RULE ONLY. I have DISPROVED it and many members in the year 2005-2006 have also DISPROVED. Kindly note that i don't have any personal feelings on anyone including you except the RULE (Asc Sub= Moob Star & Asc Sub-Sub= Moon Sub). GOOD LUCK! D.Senthil --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ > wrote: Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi@ >Re: Re: What is the correct birth time?@gro ups.comCc: "tw853" <tw853 >Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:42 AM Dear TW, Your letter is discussing totally irrelevant data,what the Baptism record says, is based on the information supplied by the parents,and not GOD ALMIGHTY... or Sunnat got to do with the astrologically correct Time of Birth,the reliability of both is doubtful... In the Punjab and in Pakistan the Birth day used to be recorded as the day on which mundan is performed,anywhere between the real age is 1 to 3 or even 4 years... ! We are discussing K.P., not religious customs...which are what they are known to be...! And for your information, our Guruji has recommended the method I have suggested, and has been found to be very accurate by most K.P. followers,except Punit,you and your supporters in this column... After my letter to Punit,based on this,he is going to check and verify whether this method is successful or not and he will be using the Birth Charts of persons and friends he know details about by using the K.P. Rectification method... Let us await his observations. .. Till then let us discuss the new topic I have begun and suggested we take up... "How to assess the the quantum of the benefits,a 'benefic' planet will bestow upon the native of a chart under scrutiny..." Surely this discussion will be very beneficial to all practitioners of K.P.,to give a more accurate assessment of the quantum of benefits...etc. With best wishes, Yogesh Lajmi GOOD LUCK ! TW <tw853 >@gro ups.comMon, 21 December, 2009 4:21:17 AM Re: What is the correct birth time? Dear Friends,1."AA --- Accurate data as recorded by the family or state. This includes BC (birth certificate) , and BR (birth record), that which is not an official document but a quote of the birth record from the Registrar or Bureau of Records, the baptismal certificate, family Bible, or baby book. These data reflect the best available accuracy." 2. As the astrological research computer program is not yet available, we apply a SIMPLE METHOD in our research study by checking chart by chart, as done by our Gurus and Church of Light (Astrology, 30 Years Research), whether each of the following definitions is met (tallied) or not, without any assumption or anything else.Moon Star = ASC Sub Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 16092?threaded= 1 & l=1 Asc Sub = Moon Star & Asc Sub-Sub = Moon Sub Rule.doc (File section)Explanation of the Test Results3. In Astrological Statistical Research, there are the simple method and the proper statistical analysis, as mention in the point 1 and 2 of:A Study of 100 Prisoner Charts.doc (File section)Thanks and regards,TW@gro ups.com, Punit Pandey <punitp wrote:>> Dear Suprakash ji,> > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and> better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you> want to do it?> > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please> suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of> connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your> suggestions incorporated.> > Thanks & Regards,> > Punit Pandey> > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <> suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote:> > >> >> > Dear Punit ji> >> > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the> > basic conditions assumed during the test.> > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the> > genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been> > analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is> > that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between> > moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt> > conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way?> >> > If not, then the test has no relevance.> >> > Regards> >> > Suprakash> >> >> >> > -> > ** Punit Pandey <punitp> > *To:* @gro ups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM> > *Subject:* Re: What is the correct birth time?> >> >> >> > Dear Suresh ji,> >> > Please see your post (> > http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote -> >> > 1. "In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as> > well as logical."> > 2. "Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the> > wheel."> > 3. "When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited> > and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research> > on the subject is surprising."> >> > *Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method "most often" and the study> > found that the method doesn't work.* Please see the file section and you> > can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study> > found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. *That is the reason I say> > that we should not "blindly" follow even Stalwarts.* Your opinion (point> > no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them "blindly"> > which also means following incorrect methods.> >> > *What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of> > available methods.* People who are marketing their methods for a long> > time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may> > not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of> > KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating> > in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum> > loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must> > participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we> > will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win.> >> > Thanks & Regards,> >> > Punit Pandey> >> >> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@.. .>wrote:> >> >>> >>> >> Dear Punitji,> >> I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not> >> read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But> >> again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years> >> experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his> >> experience.. My only point is research done in so many directions may not be> >> conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently> >> by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post.> >> Suresh Hattangadi> >>> >>> > > >> See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Dear Friends, 1. Saying to unlearn Traditional Astrology... and referring Vraha Mihira, Brihat Jataka etc are not matching. 2. Astrosecrets & K.P., Part IV is a just collection of BTR articles from the old A & A. Regards, TW , Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi wrote: > > Dear Bhaskar, >                      You have not understood K.P. correctly... >                       For understanding K.P priciples/rules etc., first,you should unlearn Traditional Astrology...then study K.P., books with an unbiased and uncluttered mind,and understand it properly...not with the objective of pointing out what is wrong... >                      Neither I, nor any book on K.P., has claimed that there is only 1 method of retification of Birth Time...if you read for example,Astrosecrets & K.P., by K.Subramaniam,especially the chapter on Rectification of Birth time..many methods are given... I suggest you study them... I also draw your attention to the latest  book Astrosecrets & K.P., Part IV...where these methods are discussed with examples...and then apply them carefully and then discuss the subject with me at length... >                      However, a majority of K.P. practitioners depend heavily on the Ruling Planets method... >                      Till then,wish you the very best, >                      Yogesh Lajmi. >                      Yogesh Lajmi. >                      >                      > > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Sun, 27 December, 2009 10:22:32 AM > Re: What is the correct birth time? > >  > Already the Astrologers are a very respected lot in society, and you will bring more respect on them with this excersise ? > > Now astrologers will sit in front of delivery rooms and then note the time of cry every time the expectant mother is taken to the delivery room ? Is this the state we have been brought down to,as being suggested ? Good. > > Then what is the point of discussion of rectification methods and such topics, if only the first cry is going to constitute the time of Birth, then who has checked our cry and the cries of rest of us ? And what is the sense of doing astrology if this is the way we are going to go about checking matters ? This means that we must do all physical checking before pronouncing whether a mother will have child or not, we must ask her to get medical reports of her having got impregnated and become pregnant ? Why? What is the astrologer for ? This means we must check for a girl who is asking whether she will have love marriage or not- every evening go where she goes, whom she meets, how much love is there between her and the boy, before pronouncing LOve marriage to her ? Then what is the astrologer doing astrology for ? > > Why does a good astrologer need external help for all this ? Why cant the study be so good that one does not need all this parepharnalia to predict ? > > If you are told the time of the first cry, only then you will be able to predict in detail about that child? Otherwise not ? What type of astrology are we into ? > > And after having known the time of the first cry, do You think whatever you predict will be right ? > > Boss this is not astrology. An astrologer needs to speak to no one. He must be efficient enough to get the answers on his own by his power of discriminations and his Panchanga, Pen and paper. > > Bhaskar. > > @gro ups.com, " Suprakash Ghosh " <suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote: > > > > Dear Punitji > > > > Collection of reliable birth data : we need to have connection with nursing homes / docs and have to volunteer to get the the actual time of first cry. > > > > As per my understanding, two planets A & B are connected if : > > > > a) A in star of B and B in star of A > > b) A in sub of B and B in sub of A > > c) A in sign of B and B in sign of A > > c-1)A in sign of B and B in sign of A in navamsa > > d) A conj B (3 deg 20min, 5 deg for moon.merc) > > e) If A and B are not with in the specified orb, if a third planet C is inbetween and each one of A & B maintains a gap of mentioned orb with C > > f) A aspect B (vedic, with specified orb) > > g)B aspect A (vedic, with specified orb) > > h) A aspect B (Western, Trine Sextile and semisextile ,with specified orb) > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Suprakash > > > > > > - > > Punit Pandey > > @gro ups.com > > Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:32 PM > > Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > > > > > > Dear Suprakash ji, > > > > AAA is the best we have available with us. If you have any alternate and better method for verification, it is welcome. Please let us know how you want to do it? > > > > > > > > > > Also, if you want to test indirect connection between Asc and Moon, please suggest how you want to define connection? Once we have this definition of connection, we can again try verifying Asc-Moon connection method with your suggestions incorporated. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Suprakash Ghosh <suprakash.ghosh@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Punit ji > > > > Since the study was conducted long a go, can you please let us know the basic conditions assumed during the test. > > Was the test conducted one at a time or all together? What was the genuinity of the birth time? AAA rating is not all.Have all the charts been analysed individually? Astrology is not mathematics. What I mean to say is that, suppose a particular chart has no no connection apparently between moon star and asc sub. but in the chat, they have exchanged stars or in rapt conjunction. Was all the charts analysed in this way? > > > > If not, then the test has no relevance. > > > > Regards > > > > Suprakash > > > > > > - > > Punit Pandey > > @gro ups.com > > Friday, December 18, 2009 10:56 AM > > Re: What is the correct birth time? > > > > > > > > > > Dear Suresh ji, > > > > Please see your post (http://groups. / group/k_p_ system/message/ 30047). I quote - > > > > 1. " In actual practice only method suggested by Lajmiji is practicable as well as logical. " > > 2. " Suggesting further research in this matter is like re-inventing the wheel. " > > 3. " When KP stalwarts have recommended a particular method as best suited and giving correct results, to disbelieve that and insist further research on the subject is surprising. " > > > > Lajmi ji recommends Asc-Moon connection method " most often " and the study found that the method doesn't work. Please see the file section and you can get the study. Stalwarts were advocating it fiercely but what study found is just opposite. The method doesn't work. That is the reason I say that we should not " blindly " follow even Stalwarts. Your opinion (point no. 3 above) is just opposite and you recommend following them " blindly " which also means following incorrect methods. > > > > What we are doing is not further research but merely verification of available methods. People who are marketing their methods for a long time, now fearing and resisting because it will expose those methods. It may not be in interest of those individuals but it is definitely in interest of KP. Instead of appreciating this verification process and participating in it, I wounder why people are trying to divert attention and making forum loose focus. This is first exercise of this scale and we all must participate in it and make it successful. At the end of this exercise, we will know which methods work and which doesn't. Finally the KP will win. > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM, suresh <hattangadi_ suresh@ .> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Punitji, > > I have not asked you to follow anything blindly.You have obviously not read full comment where I have said you can test this method for results.But again obviously my comment has touched a raw nerve.Lajmiji, s forty years experience in KP notwithstanding you seem to question value of his experience.My only point is research done in so many directions may not be conclusive.Apart from this same set of data will be interpreted differently by different people as will be evident if you have read subsequent post. > > Suresh Hattangadi > ______________________________\ __ > See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now: http://au.movies./session-times/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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