Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge - to Narasimha

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave namah Happy Deepavali~Diwali to all of you !Dear Narasimha,I guess you might overlooked my previous mail,but in line with other guys with retro planets , I also have some, and don't simply philosophize on matter but would like to hear your further explanation and am open to learn if it has deeper meaning in it. I previously found understanding of subject in the astadala padma

(eight-petal lotus) -based on the

Kalacakra or the wheel of time,and it's 8 spokes in corelation to 8

chara karaka scheme , so how you explain basic 7 charakaraka scheme ?Further is my previous mail attached~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Not

being even close to any expert on subject which is causing numerous

debates since times immemorial, I though, understood few things so far

,and that is that both Parashara and Jaimini mentioned both schemes in

specific order. Jaimini in first chapter listing first list of eight

and in the ending sloka 1.1.19 says about merging of MK and PK ,that

some further again derive in use as basing seven karaka scheme.Further, I wouldn't say it's accidental that Jataka Tatva as well give us list of eight chara karakas in decreasing order.Above

all,further sloka by Parashara of AK and PK or Lg lord and 5th lord

causing rajayoga (atmakarakaputrabhyam...) If he was giving us basing

scheme of seven karakas as starting point wouldn't he give us sloka as

atmakarakamatrubhyam?! Or why at all specifically using merging of

Putra karaka into MK ? why not some other way ? Unless Jataka (living

beings) are not somehow different because of that procreative ability...These points were satisfying for my understanding on matter, but of course others may disagree.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Looking for your reply Majasohamsa , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote:>> Namaste Michal,> > Regarding your comment on drigdasa: Parasara taught drigdasa calculations and not judgment. We faithfully stick to a rishi's words in areas that a rishi has spoken about and use our judgment, intuition, logic and experiments to *fill in* the rest of the details that he *left open*. However, please note that we do NOT use our intuition, logic, judgment and experiments to *override* what a rishi has clearly spoken about.> > In the case of drigdasa calculation, I stuck to Parasara 100%. However, just teaching calculations is useless to people of today. In order to make the teaching useful to people, I had to also solve the puzzle of how to use it. That is where my contribution comes in. The simple idea of taking the 5th house from dasa sign as lagna is my contribution. However, the calculations themselves are strictly based on Parasara. The rule furnished from my meditation supplements Parasara's teachings in an area he did not address.> > Regarding 7 karakas: Parasara did NOT tell to *omit* PK. He clearly told to *combine* MK and PK into one portfolio. Period. If you want to change Parasara's words because they do not fit with your philosophization, bottomline is you are deviating from the words of rishi. That *would* be a leap of faith. Words of rishis are the pramaana and not your fancy philosophization.> > In fact, I do not understand this stress on philosophization. Too much philosophization of half-baked knowledge kills knowledge. I would rather learn what rishis have taught clearly, without worrying about philosophizing it.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana> Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> > > sohamsa , Michal Dziwulski nearmichal@ wrote:> >> > Hare Rama Krsna ||> > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > Fortunately I am not one of these people tempted to believe Parasara's text is a black box etc. I am open to new ideas, but your article is not very convincing, it seems to tell us the earth is flat, after we had learnt that it is round. Like I said before, there is little explanation in your article. Furthermore, you have declined to answer questions. When someone offers a theory publicly, and then avoids answering valid questions that are raised we can only assume that he/she does not have the answers. Still, I will ask again.> > > > If Parasara's verses on carakarakas are 'unambiguous' as you say they are, then can you please explain why it is Putra karaka that is merged with Matri karaka and not some other karaka? Putra karaka indicates progeny (putra means child), which is something specific to the living world, as opposed to the non-living world (buildings cannot have a child, follower etc.). This explanation seems very plausible, simple, and elegant - it is not philosophising but a matter of fact - I'm sure Parasara was aware of this and expected his audience to be also. By omitting Putra karaka there is a clear (unambiguous) distinction being made between the living and non-living as recognised by science and the Bhagavad Gita. It is not at all a leap of faith - pop stars have followers, buildings do not.> > > > Drig Dasa. From the following statement it seems that you have made up your own rule not based on Parasara's drigdasa verse, added it to your translation of the rest, and called it 'Parasara's drig dasa'. Is this the case or am I mistaken? If it is indeed your own rule, furnished from your meditation then it should be called Narasimha's drigdasa so that new students do not get the two (Parasara and Narasimha) confused. Because I fully agree with you that it is the Rishi's words that we must follow:> > > > "About a year later it came in a flash after a meditation session. When Narayana dasa starts from the 7th house, we consider the dasa sign to be a progression of the 7th house and hence take the 7th house from dasa sign as the progressed lagna. I thought why not apply the same idea?!! Drigdasa starts from the 9th house. So I thought of taking drigdasa sign as the progression of the 9th house. If I take the 5th hose from dasa sign, that should be the progressed lagna".> > > > Happy Diwali to you too,> > Michal> > > > ________________________________> > Narasimha PVR Rao pvr@> > sohamsa ; vedic astrology ; > > Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:28:23 AM> > Words of Rishis, Paramparas and Knowledge> > > > > > Namaste friends,> > > > Happy Deepavali/Diwali to all of you!> > > > > Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the> > > basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra> > > kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS?> > > .... Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real> > > meaning of the Maharishi's?> > > > Parasara may have left out the philosophical basis, but he did teach various objective calculations of hora shastra. There are ambiguities in a few places, but things are quite clear in several places.> > > > We can be true to Parasara atleast in the matter of calculations he clearly defined. We can theorize or experiment in areas where he left ambiguity. But I do not see why we should deviate from an unambiguous verse on calculations and come up with a big hypothesis instead.> > > > * * *> > > > Some people may think that even unambiguously stated things somehow have some deep meaning that cannot be deciphered through good knowledge of Sanskrit language and grammar and an understanding of the writing style. However, this belief is inconsistent with Indian tradition. It is the tradition in India for people to study Sanskrit well, understand stylistic nuances, hone their interpretation skills, interpret classics and engage in scholarly debates.> > > > Not the entire text of Parasara is a "black box" to one who has studied Sanskrit well. In fact, if that were to be the case, Parasara would not have created the text!!> > > > * * *> > > > Some people may be tempted to believe that Parasara's text is a black box that should not be interpreted by any scholar today and we should stick to the interpretation of someone in the past, i.e. from some parampara. But that is against the spirit of knowledge that has been behind the wealth of knowledge that exists in India.> > > > In the old days in India, even giants with impeccable pedigree (e.g. Adi Sankaracharya) never won debates by saying "this knowledge is from parampara and so it is correct". They actually quoted rishis and debated on the interpretation of rishis. The words of rishis were taken to be ultimate and it was considered that those words could be interpreted by scholars and debated.> > > > * * *> > > > Parampara is for INTERPRETING RISHIS and passing on the interpretation. It is not for overriding rishis. From time to time, errors do develop in parampara and they do need to be corrected by going back to the words of rishis.> > > > Whenever I found a discrepancy between a teaching of our paramapara and an unambiguous teaching of Parasara on an objective matter such as a calculation, I experimented and found Parasara to be correct always.> > > > Apart from the current example of chara karaka determination, let me take the case of drigdasa (on which you can download an article at VedicAstrologer. org/articles/ drik_am.zip) . Parasara unambiguously said that sthira dasa years should be used in drigdasa. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught chara dasa years. Parasara said that the order of reckoning aspects is zodiacal for fixed signs and odd dual signs and anti-zodiacal for movable signs and even dual signs. But Pt Sanjay Rath taught that the order is zodiacal for odd-footed signs and anti-zodiacal for even-footed signs.> > > > In both the cases, the words of Parasara are crystal clear and I see no scope whatsoever for multiple interpretations. Moreover, when I tried Parasara's version, it worked nicely and made things much simpler and far more consistent.> > > > * * *> > > > I have no doubt in my mind that the time-tested method used in India for millennia is STILL applicable today.> > > > Rishis obtain knowledge through direct experience and capture it in written/spoken form. Scholars from time to time interpret the words of rishis and debate. Their interpretations are passed down in paramparas. But the problem is that corruptions may occur from time to time. Some corruptions may be small and some may be big.> > > > If a new scholar finds a previous interpretation passed down in a parampara to be inconsistent with a rishi's words, he/she corrects it. If necessary, there may be a scholarly debate. Of course, just the words of rishis are taken as pramaana (basis), and not the teachings of parampara.> > > > This process of correction using the words of rishis as basis ensures that any corruptions that occur in knowledge are detected and weeded out sooner or later. This process is vital to the preservation of the knowledge of rishis in various paramparas.> > > > Because human beings have some weaknesses, some obstacles to this process come up at times. However, Nature will find a way to make it work, eventually.> > > > BTW, the article in question on chara karakas is at VedicAstrologer. org/articles/ c_karaka. pdf.> > > > Krishnaarpanamastu,> > Narasimha> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > sohamsa@ .com, Michal Dziwulski <nearmichal@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Hare Rama Krsna ||> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > > > Can you show me the verse of Parasara that explains the basis of chaturdasi dosa? Is the story of Chandra kidnapping Tara and betraying Guru mentioned in BPHS? Perhaps it is, I must be honest with you I have not done justice to this great work - yet. I know it is mentioned elsewhere. But point is, this and many other vital Jyotish understanding is found in allied sorces of knowledge which includes other scriptures and parampara.> > > > > > Is it enough to learn sanskrit to derive the real meaning of the Maharishi's? Meaning cannot come from grammar alone. A literal translation is a face value interpretation. A beggar may find a bag of money, but if what he sees is just paper, and decides to start a fire with it to stay warm, imagine the loss.> > > > > > Sincerely,> > > Michal> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@>> > > Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937@ ...>> > > Cc: vedic astrology; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com; sohamsa sohamsa@ .com>> > > Monday, October 27, 2008 3:06:30 PM> > > Re: Char Karka> > > > > > > > >  > > > Namaste Sir,> > > > > > > Seven > > > > (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE > > > CHARTS,> > > > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING > > > .> > > > > > If you or anyone can show me the verse of Parasara > > > that says the above, we can discuss your views further.> > > > > > When mentioning the two schemes, Parasara clearly > > > said that the 8-karaka scheme is used when two planets are in the same degree. > > > He never talked about "living beings" vs "mundane charts". Instead he talked > > > about matching the degrees of planets to decide 7 vs 8 karaka > > > schemes.> > > > > > A clear guideline of Parasara has been ignored and > > > a big hypothesis is made instead. Such a theory with a weak foundation > > > fails to convince me.> > > > > > Best > > > regards,> > > Narasimha> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > > Do > > > a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> > > Sri > > > Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > > > - > > > Gopal Goel > > > Narasimha Rao > > > Cc: vedic astrology ; Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com ; sohamsa > > > Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:43 AM> > > Char Karka> > > > > > Dear Friend,> > > Why bring Pt. Sanjay Rath , place your views independently.> > > I have again gone through the article of Rath ji and your article> > > carefully.I got the impression , that you are try to advocate your> > > views instead of trying to understand the real intent of BPH.> > > I may like to bring following points to your kind attention:> > > 1. Rath ji is your guru , never show disrespect to your guru.> > > Such attitude will bring your downfall. Rishi Yajvalkya ,Jaimni > > > sometimes taken different line of thinking , but with the permission> > > and with due respect to his guru.I think you are in USA too long.> > > that is why you do not like to stick these simple norms.> > > 2. Parasara had refereed higher authorities in BPHS KIKE 'SEER > > > GARG'> > > 3. BPHS INTENDS THAT THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT> > > SCHEMES OF CHAR KARKAS-7 AS WELL AS 8> > > 4 In 7 char karka scheme Rahu is not considered .However , if two planets > > > are same zodiac degree in their respective signs, then char Karka replacement> > > occurs and Rahu takes its place as sthir Karka of confusion and deceit.Seven> > > (7 )CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR MUNDANE CHARTS, THAT IS WHY> > > PUTRA kARKA IS ABSENT AND RAHU AS STHIR kARKA DOES NOT> > > REPRESENT ANY LIVING PERSON BUT DECEIT ETC.> > > 5. 8 CHAR KARKA SCHEME IS FOR LIVING BEING . BPHS> > > CLEARLY STATES 8 kARKA IN SERIAL ORDER-AK,AMK,> > > BK, MK, PITK,PUTK,GK AND DK.THERE IS ABSOLUTELY> > > ON AMBIGUITY OR CONFUSION.> > > 6. kindly TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE PURPORT AND REASON > > > BEHIND REPLACEMENT OF CHAR KARKA WITH STHIR KARKA.> > > THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE ,AS TO WHY CHAR KARKA ARE REPLACED BY STHIR> > > KARKAS.IN FACT THIS CHAPTER OF BPHS DEALS IN ALL KINDS OF> > > KARKAS ACCEPT NAISARGIKA KARKAS. THE SLOKAS IN THIS CHAPTER ARE LIKE SUTRA AND LOT OF CO-RELATION IS REQUIRED TO DECIPHER> > > THEM. CHAR KARKA INDICATE THE HELP AND SUSTENANCE PROVIDED> > > BY OTHER LIVING BEING OR LACK OF IT DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF PAST BIRTHS.STHIR KARKA INDICATE WHEN SUCH LIVING BEING WILL> > > PUT TO GRIEF .> > > 6. I urge , kindly read the article written by Rathji . It will show the light.> > > Regards,> > > G.K.GOEL> > > Ph: 09350311433> > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR> > > NEW DELHI-110 076> > > INDIA>