On Remedial Measures Difference (Resolving Points)

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Hi Rajarshri,

More words more interpretations

No words no interpretations

anyways....scroll down please...

sohamsa , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:>> > Namaste SS> > I have given some comments on some points. Kindly check.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak soulsadhak wrote:> > > Soul Sadhak soulsadhak On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> sohamsa > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 7:24 PM> > > Dear Rajarshi,> > Can we just pray endlesslessly and hope that the Right thing drops into our lap someday? It will - in due course of time - but what about when you need it here and now?> Why not? This is the change in the degree of faith that comes through sadhana.The more sadhana one does, the more his faith gets cemented and THAT can change A LOT of things. So there it comes back to what you had stated and I had elaborated in my previous mail. Faith CAN move mountains. Haven't Sri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa said that?

i wanted to ask about the person who hasnt yet done that much amount of ground work as is necessary to move the mountain with faith.

> And..Who decides what is Right?> Medicine for one may be posion for another.> There is NO greater medicine that surrenderance to a deity which works universally for everyone. One does not have to be a jyotish to know this.

what about someone who meets with an accident or fall sick? does he sit in surrenderance assuming that Deity will send the doctor? i am reminded of the story where the man drowned since he did not accept help from the boat/helicopter etc. during a flood since he had complete faith that God will save him.

> A mother who's child is very sick will try out everything that she thinks is right hoping that something will cure her child.> Of course.> > Surrender has to be complemented with the Right Action. > Not necessarily. Surrenderance itself is the right actions, as it becomes more and more perfect the Deity Himself/Herself with guide you into what is to be done and what is not to be done.please see above.

> Who decides what is the right action?> Please check above. > > At that moment she needs the right thing and follow the right rules of treatment - on other days, when the child is not sick, she can take the preventive approach (~regular sadhana) to make sure that disease to the child does not happen. > I disagree. With regular sadhana you strike a connection with your Deity such that the Deity will guide you. This is the benefit of sadhana. This is the most desireable situation. That is what I have said before as well. Sadhana is not like going on a one day picnic, seperate from the everyday daily work. It is what needs to be integrated into a daily habit. Daily.

I completely agree with the point that making connection is the foundation of everything else that follows and that Sadhana is not an ad hoc task - but how many people are doing it? what i am trying to say is that if one is, say, just a beginner and falls sick and needs help then what does one do? does he wait to accomplish advancement in the sadhana or seek help so that he is well again and can continue with the sadhana?

> May be building up immunity to disease is like sadhana...so how many would be there who would never fall sick and need a remedy despite prevention.. .> The idea is to form a connection with a Higher Power, one that can be trusted without a hitch. Unlike ordinary humans.

"that" is the prevention i am talking about - Establish the Connection - so that Right things come through and you never fall sick in the first place - but Practically how many can do that?

some kick from the divine is needed at times to remind the individuals that they need to establish the connection. when one is in trouble one remembers "God" - but as they say Jo sukh mein sumiran kare to dukh kaahe ko hoye?

yet, there are only a chosen few who take sukh and dukh with equal acceptance :-)

so what do ordinary humans do?

they just look for quick fix and then forget about the connection - so they keep falling sick...fine - that is their level...until they evolve...> > Of course, as i said earlier, Everything has a Limitation.> [the mother, the doctor, the medicine, the sadhaka...] > Sadhana does not have any limitation. It is like an ocean. I feel.

i said sadhaKa - not sadhaNa ...never mind...:-)> > Rules and Surrender both have their place. A person in name of surrender to almighty may go on a killing spree thinking that he's alleviating people's suffering as living in the world is a suffering - what do we say to that? > Surrendering is an internal process. You point is purely theoritical. Does not happen in reality. Or else are you saying all the saints who have graced this land are mistaken when the speak that surrenderance is the key to deliverance from misery? And all kinds of misery. Physical, emotional and spiritual.Threefold.well, i was thinking of hitler who said 'i recieved message from god' - or may be that wasnt true who knows...

Not to say that Surrender or Sadhana has no value - question is how many can? and until they surrender what do you do when they are in need? do you give them a quickfix or just tell them that had you surrendered you would not have faced this situation...or go now surrender and do some sadhana....your Deity will save you someday ?

yes, ofcourse they should be taught about surrender - but how many can you expect will trot that path with 100% efficacy at one instuction of yours? most will fall repeatedly until they learn to walk properly. you can only try - take the horse to the pond - can you make it drink? but just hope that next time it's thirsty, it may remember the pond and find it's way to the pond!

why do the buddhas refrain from nirvana and choose to stay back to guide - we know :-)

> yes, of course, i agree to what as u said, one cant stretch rules, and that applies to rules of medicine and mantra, but then as i said, who is to decide what is right? > You do not even have to bother about right and wrong if only you can make yourself to trust your deity implicitly. That trust does not come by just words. It comes by continuoes internal fights. The first practical step of which is to start any sadhana. Any sadhana.

please see above.

> needless to say, all that is possible with jyotisha and mantra and sadhana too.> Not with sadhana, nope, unless your definition of sadhana is different from mine.

it may appear so - and yes, different people may have different notion of sadhana until one realises What the Truth is and strives towards liberation. but, Just to exemplify, for common man, at one stage one may be doing a mantra sadhana and yet at another he gives up all mantras and tries to establish oneself in Silence - no words - no sound. That is yet another type of sadhana. In that sense...else, some being may ask one to do mahavidya sadhana or gayatri sadhana etc etc - so that kind of sadhana may have it's limitations depending on what one is seeking - one that seeks siddhis will get siddhis, one that seeks liberation will get liberation (in due course of time ofcourse and with due ?- Sadhana).

> > and, We, are just going round and round in poruing out what we think, but,> What one follows/does is upto oneself, and results/consequence s are for oneself to bear.> > This round and round process will keep happneing as long as is stuck in the realm of word plays. I feel. Sadhana is a practical experinces. And considering the fact that life is so uncertain, it is the most practical philosophy to try and attach one self to a higher power for which one has to start, actually start with sadhana.

No dispute there :-)

One has to know the importance of prevention and building up immunity [sadhana] and practise.... until then one goes round and round in the cycle of falling sick and looking for more and newer quickfixes....should we tell people who give quickfixes that they shouldnt?

Probably you would say in essence is that we shouldnt and we arent but people should know that the quickfix may not work with equal efficacy with all and at all times and that a quickfix is a quickfix and shouldnt be portrayed as the panacea - Right?

If yes, we are on the same page - not that it matters to the Almighty if we are not :-)

> Best Regards,> SS > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > Dear SS> > > > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give (as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the right remedy, the right insight.... :-) > > > > > > > > EXACTLY! That is the bottomline. The idea of surrenderance to God, humility towards Him/Her and serious prayer. This should be given far greater precedence and emphasis than any amount of rules. To be able to do that, one has to reduce his/her own ego. To be able to reduce ego, one has to do sadhana -. Therefore, the point is instead of bothering too much about rules, start off some sadhana so that it helps to give you some solid ground to stand on in this world which is otherwise replete with uncertainties at every level.> > > > Isn't this logical and fair?> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > sohamsa@ .com> > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 6:08 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Rajarshi,> > > > I too agree with what you say, and isnt it a fact that there are equal chances of being misguided by someone who thinks is very advanced spiritually and makes one believe so? > > There is no guarantee to anything. Sometimes one has to move by one's own sense of judgement of what one has to follow - whether it comes from a jyotishi or so called spiritual guru or a medicine prescribed by a doctor. Even that (one's sense of judgement) may turn out to be not so right. > > Everything has a limitation.> > So even a common man may be bewildered going from text to text which claim one deity to be superior to the rest while others claim 'That It is Not'.... until one realises The Truth. > > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give (as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the right remedy, the right insight.... :-) > > > > Best Regards,> > SS> > > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Dear SS> > > > > > I quite agree with your mail. And I am not saying that prescribing a mantra by jyotish is incorrect. Of course not. > > > > > > However, the point of discussion is mainting of a balance, and not over stretching anything. The rules of mantra shastra are good and solid, but the idea is if in the process of judging the best rule for the best mantra for the best time and best direction etc ec, ones mind gets over-awed by so many parameters and loses out on the necessary discipline/ground work required for making any mantra work, what is the use of that then? The question is one of degree.> > > > > > What is the gaurantee that the due to some reason or the other the jyotish has not made a mistake in the mantra shastra calculations and given an incorrect mantra? Mahamaya can delude anyone. I am just stating a theoritical yet very practical possibilit y. So what is a practical insurance against such a chance? Jyotish is perfect. Mantra-shastra is perfect. But jyotishis are not always perfect, like any other human being. I feel , a better insurance against such realistic possiblities is to have a humble sense of surrender to the Deity rather than raking the mind to extreme levels trying to figure out the best possiblity without really being 100 percent sure that there will not be a mistake (however slight) in the process.> > > > > > I will give a small practical example from my experience. I had been once given a mantra by a person I respect a lot. I had never even heard of the deity of that mantra before. I religiously chanted the mantra for nearly two years, where as when I tried analysing the mantra using the rules of mantra shastra, I found it is comes as manta that should ideally cause me harm. And yet it never did anything like that. I still hang on that mantra. So obviously I must have miscalculated or missed out some sub clause or something. Instead of chanting the mantra directly, if I had known about these mantra shatra analysis techniques then and tried it with my imperfect knowledge, I may have never ventured into chanting the mantra. > > > > > > So in the end, I am not saying mantras for remedies are useless. Of course not. But rather than over emphasis on high level subtle rules which have an equal chance of being miscalculated, a change in attitude (even for an average short-term gain mantra) may be of more practical use.> > > > > > -Regards> > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > > sohamsa@ .com> > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 1:50 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Rajarshi, your are right regarding theory and application of it. Yet, everyone may not be having the same spiritual insight or have done the same ground work as you say or have the same understanding of the process. But atleast there is hope that out of all those who seek fast remedies through mantras, there would be atleast some that may get to have a veiw of that spark of the universal consciousness may be even for a brief span (span = here attention/awareness becomes more important than the time) and some, out of those few, may be instigated/inspired to make a move towards realising that Truth, while some may be those who find once again the connection they lost from previous birth - you never know...all those who come to seek the remedies may not become qualified jet pilots at one go (of course with rigorous training) - but atleast learn to drive some vehicle or the other and learn more about how to improve their driving skills if the inner> > drive> > > comes through...and if they dont, well, it is their level of spiritual growth - isn't it? may be they even end up calling the astrologer as incompetent - who is to blame?> > > > > > 2 people reading the same (spiritual) text may interpret it differently and argue about it's meaning, while the Zen master may hit their head with the proverbial stick and tell them that "the tao that can be described in words is not the real tao". > > > > > > Does that mean that all (spiritual) text is invalid? > > > The answer is "yes" AND "no"...or may be even "Neither". > > > That is because it depends on the relativity of the observer's locus.> > > > > > I would just quote Bharat again here, as he's already said it:> > > "Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific > > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The > > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it > > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall > > > come automatically with their spiritual "growth" and understanding. "> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > SS> > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear SS> > > > > > > > Correct. The idea is one of practical application and one of theoritical discussion. As you rightly mentioned easier said than done. The question is why is it easier said than done, that is because unless one is ready to follow at least some parts of the rules, disciples and as Narasimha says, the idea of humility (being a begger), most mantras wont work in teh short span inspite of following all theoritical rules. Unless you are already a "ready" canditate with all the "ground work" having already been done.> > > > > > > > I have come across people using plenty of mantras for very short purposes and yet not achieving any results at all. Whereas there are those who can use specific mantras for specific purposes and achive such results. What is the difference? The "ground work". is the difference I feel.> > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > > > sohamsa@ .com> > > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 12:35 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "For those who seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends from it, they gain only that much."> > > > "Mantra Shastra helps both approaches."> > > > > > > > thanx Bharat.> > > > > > > > dear all,> > > > > > > > If we understands this, it will bring much peace.> > > > else repeat OMmmmmmm.... ..and 'become' the SILENCE....isnt that the end to all troubles? Easier said than done.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > SS> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@ ... > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep> > > > > >> > > > > > Please pardon my intervention. Hindus are not idol worshipers. And > > > > > > it is the Hindus who know that Lord only is. They do not use the > > > > > > word "one", since "one" presupposes "two" and "three"... and so on. > > > > > > Since Lord only is, the entirety is contained within in including > > > > > > all time, space and causation. Every object, every being is > > > > > > contained within the Lord. For an untrained mind, it is difficult to > > > > > > consume this. To focus one's attention to this principle he needs > > > > > > something tangible. So an object that can signify this principle to > > > > > > the person becomes an object of worship. Once this shape is given to > > > > > > the object... it is never considered an Idol. It is worshipped as > > > > > > God itself. Noone goes to the temple and says " Hey Idol, ...." , > > > > > > everyone fold their hands and say "Hey Krishna or Hey Rama or Hey > > > > > > Shiva .....".> > > > > >> > > > > > The people who wrongly call hindus idol worshippers are themselves > > > > > > worshipping the idols. What is a cross? What is a the book Koran or > > > > > > the image of Mecca or the words "Allah Hu Akbar" inscribed on a > > > > > > plate? These all are Idols. Aren't they?> > > > > >> > > > > > So long is there a world and realization does not dawn upon oneself, > > > > > > one would need something to focus their mind with. This in our > > > > > > scriptures have been suggested through various ways:> > > > > >> > > > > > 1. Shapes and Symbols> > > > > > 2. Elements> > > > > > 3. Upasanas: Observing the nature and relating it to the Truth. Like > > > > > > endless is the space and time and relating the quality of endless to > > > > > > the Truth.> > > > > > 4. Mantra Japa- Herein the sound reverberates with the certain > > > > > > element/aspect of nature. To that root is added our request. For > > > > > > those who seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant > > > > > > reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends > > > > > > from it, they gain only that much.> > > > > >> > > > > > Therefore Sundeep, I request you to study our culture more and you > > > > > > shall find nothing that is sane and truthful missing from it.> > > > > >> > > > > > Sri Narasimha is suggesting that we do not command the Lord and > > > > > > worship him undertaking any appealing mantra - which essentially > > > > > > means that the more we understand its meaning the idea of the Lord > > > > > > shall become clearer and clearer in our minds. This approach is for > > > > > > spiritual aspirants who are willing to "let go themselves in the > > > > > > hands of the lord". This is something that one has to realize for > > > > > > oneself and not impose on others. Furthermore, it should not be > > > > > > called "begging". There is no difference between the Lord and our > > > > > > True Self. To call ourselves beggars is to defile us and Srimad > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita warns against such a self judgement.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific > > > > > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The > > > > > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it > > > > > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall > > > > > > come automatically with their spiritual "growth" and understanding.> > > > > >> > > > > > Hope this helps> > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > > > Bharat> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:07 AM, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ... > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji (and it might help others to read this fully too,> > > > > > trust me you may well be satisfied),> > > > > >> > > > > > First, let me say I am not about to either agree/disagree with you. I> > > > > > am only standing back and observing/categoriz ing your approach, and> > > > > > comparing it historical events that will give me a sense of the final> > > > > > import of your approach.> > > > > >> > > > > > If you read about Abraham, the supposed "father" of the three> > > > > > religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) that have together had the> > > > > > most following among all religions in the world (ever). As far as I> > > > > > know, he lived in a time of deities and ritual. He is supposedly the> > > > > > first to have actively sought to bring the notion of one God to the> > > > > > masses. He destroyed idols much to the dissatisfaction of lots around> > > > > > him. Apparently God revealed himself to Abraham several times.> > > > > > Abraham submitted himself completely to the will of God, always,> > > > > > without question. It seems logical to conclude that he destroyed and> > > > > > denounced idolatry because he felt, at the very least, that focus on> > > > > > the multiplicity of deity and webs of rituals took *away* a person's> > > > > > focus from the real thing - submission to the one and only God (which> > > > > > is what Abraham was really about i.e. submission to the one and only> > > > > > God). Before jumping to any conclusions about what I am trying to say,> > > > > > please read on.> > > > > >> > > > > > Me, I'm fascinated by religious psychology, i.e. what drives people to> > > > > > believe in God and how. I *dont seek to denounce* either Abraham or> > > > > > the idolaters (Hindus would obviously come to mind here), only to> > > > > > understand them. The way I have found to unify these two seemingly> > > > > > contradictory approaches is the following, and perhaps it will help> > > > > > you as well: God is *eventually only one* of course and "resides" deep> > > > > > within us, and projects himself (I use "project" in exactly the sense> > > > > > Michal describes) in various ways into human experience. As people get> > > > > > spiritually elevated, the projections become less necessary and they> > > > > > are able to have a more and more direct experience of God.> > > > > > Consequently, they start forgetting the role the projections> > > > > > *originally had in the beginning of their path* and consider the most> > > > > > important thing to be the complete submission to the *growing* inner> > > > > > light of God within themselves.> > > > > >> > > > > > My feeling is that that is what happened to Abraham, and is what is> > > > > > happening to you as well. Psychologically and astrologically speaking,> > > > > > the examples you choose to illustrate your point betray your> > > > > > psychology. You have unconsciously chosen an example of a mountain,> > > > > > with the *final God experience* sitting on top. That final God> > > > > > experience is the Sun, astrologically speaking i.e. the source, the> > > > > > symbol of the growing inner light within *you*. The various paths to> > > > > > the top that you talk about represent, I think, Mercury, with its> > > > > > various forms and distinctions (Prithvi tattwa?). As you behold the> > > > > > Sun, the king, in all his magnificence, everything else pales in> > > > > > comparison. And sure enough, you start posting that all the paths are> > > > > > unimportant :-)> > > > > >> > > > > > But see, not everyone is there yet, all the distinctions and dates and> > > > > > rituals are important, because they will unerringly lead one there, as> > > > > > they did for you. At least that's what I have gathered after listening> > > > > > to Sanjayji and all the gurus on this group..> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > Sundeep> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger ./> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger./invite/>